Death!
Phil Stanger
Reading the post just now in which someone was asking who the entity
bothering the Doctor in The Also People and SVAS has reminded me of a
question I always meant to ask about her.
I'm a bit unclear about the whole 'Gods of Gallifrey' thing, in particular
how the 'Death' in Revelation, who seems just to be a programmed simaclrum
created by the Timewyrm, ends up as the godly Death we see from Love and War
on. They are meant to be the same character aren't they ? Or was the Doctor
speaking metaphoricly when he said "The last time we met we danced" and
Death refering to Chris's (latest) child when she called Emily her
grandmother in happy Endings ?
Sorry to be so dim, especially since I'm pretty sure I have read every NA
with the Gods in. I suppose it goes without saying that I don't understand
all the Rose woman buisness in Lungbarrow either.
-------------
Richard Jones
-------------
Doctor : It's certainly not from a spaced-out lovelorn lass.
Turlough : Not a lass ?
Doctor : Alas no !
- Great puns from the "Make your own adventure with Doctor Who" series.
--
Phil Stanger
David Golding
In article <na.d1b6374799....@argonet.co.uk>, Phil Stanger wrote:
SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
Human Nature.
>Reading the post just now in which someone was asking who the entity
>bothering the Doctor in The Also People and SVAS has reminded me of a
>question I always meant to ask about her.
That is the Pythia, a character introduced in Time's Crucible. Before
Rassilon and co, she was the Matriarch of Gallifrey - their leader. She
could see into the future. The Doctor kind of offended her by
"predicting" the end of her reign.
>I'm a bit unclear about the whole 'Gods of Gallifrey' thing, in particular
>how the 'Death' in Revelation, who seems just to be a programmed simaclrum
>created by the Timewyrm, ends up as the godly Death we see from Love and War
>on. They are meant to be the same character aren't they ? Or was the Doctor
>speaking metaphoricly when he said "The last time we met we danced" and
>Death refering to Chris's (latest) child when she called Emily her
>grandmother in happy Endings ?
Okay. In 'Human Nature' Death says something along the lines of: The
Eternals are the dreams of Time Lords. Sometimes something powerful (ie,
the Timewyrm) can give them life. You'll note that Death hangs around
for some time after the Timewyrm has finished with it in 'Revelation'.
These ones given life are the Gods of Gallifrey. They make deals with Time
Lords, obviously have some power over reality, and may make a Time Lord
their Champion. Ones we know of are Time, Death, Pain and Vain Beauty (um,
their may be another, I forget...). They do not exactly correspond with our
own visions of Time, Death, etc: they belong to Time Lord culture, not human
culture. Also, they are not responsible for Time, Death, etc... or at least,
not exactly. Emily is Death's Grandmother because Emily is Ishtar's mother,
Ishtar is the Timewyrm, and the Timewyrm is, sort of, Death's mother.
>Sorry to be so dim, especially since I'm pretty sure I have read every NA
>with the Gods in. I suppose it goes without saying that I don't understand
>all the Rose woman buisness in Lungbarrow either.
That was Time. And 'Sybil', the crone at the Gates to the Past/Future,
was the Pythia.
higs, Dave
--
david by default, jade by choice akn...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
a dog person with cat tendencies
Paul Cornell
In article <slrn45q9leb...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>,
akn...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (David Golding) wrote:
> In article <na.d1b6374799....@argonet.co.uk>, Phil Stanger wrote:
>
> SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
> Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
> Human Nature.
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> Okay. In 'Human Nature' Death says something along the lines of: The
> Eternals are the dreams of Time Lords. Sometimes something powerful (ie,
> the Timewyrm) can give them life. You'll note that Death hangs around
> for some time after the Timewyrm has finished with it in 'Revelation'.
> These ones given life are the Gods of Gallifrey. They make deals with Time
> Lords, obviously have some power over reality, and may make a Time Lord
> their Champion. Ones we know of are Time, Death, Pain and Vain Beauty (um,
> their may be another, I forget...). They do not exactly correspond with our
> own visions of Time, Death, etc: they belong to Time Lord culture, not human
> culture. Also, they are not responsible for Time, Death, etc... or at least,
> not exactly. Emily is Death's Grandmother because Emily is Ishtar's mother,
> Ishtar is the Timewyrm, and the Timewyrm is, sort of, Death's mother.
That isn't it. The Eternals are the ones from Enlightenment. Those ones
used humans as a supply of mental images. The ones that use Time Lords
become very big and powerful indeed, and satisfy the Gallifreyans'
supressed need for religion. In Happy Endings there's a line about the
Time Lords worshipping a different species, and that's about this. Vain
Beauty isn't a Time Lord god, just an ordinary Eternal, plugged into aa
particular human archetype.
'Never regret what you don't do. Only what you do.'
David Golding
In article <paul-16069...@cornell.demon.co.uk>, Paul Cornell wrote:
>> SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
>> Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
>> Human Nature.
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>> Okay. In 'Human Nature' Death says something along the lines of: The
>> Eternals are the dreams of Time Lords. Sometimes something powerful (ie,
>
Oh yes it is. I just left out the bit about being Eternals. Whoops.
>Time Lords worshipping a different species, and that's about this. Vain
>Beauty isn't a Time Lord god, just an ordinary Eternal, plugged into aa
>particular human archetype.
Ah.
Phil Stanger
In article <slrn45q9leb...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>,
akn...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (David Golding) wrote:
> SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
> Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
> Human Nature.
> That is the Pythia, a character introduced in Time's Crucible. Before
> Rassilon and co, she was the Matriarch of Gallifrey - their leader. She
> could see into the future. The Doctor kind of offended her by
> "predicting" the end of her reign.
First off, thanks lots for all the explainations. I suspect you're wrong
about this one though. Kate's said on one of the SVAS threads that the
beastie that claimed Roz as revenge for the Doctor 'redeeming' Kadiatu was
Death.
> Ones we know of are Time, Death, Pain and Vain Beauty (um,
> their may be another, I forget...).
I reckon that there's 'Life'. When the Doctor says in 'Dying Days' that he's
the "Champion of Time and Life" I really hope that means this incarnation
has taken on another Eternal as patron. Mostly because being 'Life's
Champion' would fit in so well with the whole live-affirming nature of
PaulDoc and the cool Cheating Death themes of the TVM. Then again he could
just be taking about magazine subscribtions.
-------------
Richard Jones
-------------
--
Phil Stanger
Jonathan Blum
In article <na.26b8c6479b....@argonet.co.uk>,
Phil Stanger <psta...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <slrn45q9leb...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>akn...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (David Golding) wrote:
>> SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
>> Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
>> Human Nature.
>> That is the Pythia, a character introduced in Time's Crucible. Before
>> Rassilon and co, she was the Matriarch of Gallifrey - their leader. She
>> could see into the future. The Doctor kind of offended her by
>> "predicting" the end of her reign.
>First off, thanks lots for all the explainations. I suspect you're wrong
>about this one though. Kate's said on one of the SVAS threads that the
>beastie that claimed Roz as revenge for the Doctor 'redeeming' Kadiatu was
>Death.
Actually, I wouldn't necessarily say he's wrong about that... after all,
if there's one thing the Pythia represents in the collective unconscious
of the Time Lords, it's Death -- the curse which killed the unborn
children, the millenia of sterility which followed. They're not as
separate as you might think...
>I reckon that there's 'Life'. When the Doctor says in 'Dying Days' that he's
>the "Champion of Time and Life" I really hope that means this incarnation
>has taken on another Eternal as patron. Mostly because being 'Life's
>Champion' would fit in so well with the whole live-affirming nature of
>PaulDoc and the cool Cheating Death themes of the TVM. Then again he could
>just be taking about magazine subscribtions.
Somehow I think you're going to like Vampire Science. :-)
Life, incidentally, appears in "Lungbarrow", though she's only named in an
oblique way. Her role would have been spelled out more in one of the bits
cut from "Room With No Doors", but I'll let Kate decide how much she wants
to tell about that.
As it is, we could make a pretty strong case that a character called Life
could be used in the BBC books without infringing on Virgin copyrights...
Regards,
Jon Blum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"All this time you two thought you were playing some twisted game of
chess... when it was just me playing solitaire!"
D O C T O R W H O : T I M E R I F T
Phil Hallard
Paul Cornell (pa...@cornell.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:> > SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
:> > Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
:> > Human Nature.
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:> used humans as a supply of mental images. The ones that use Time Lords
:> become very big and powerful indeed, and satisfy the Gallifreyans'
:> supressed need for religion. In Happy Endings there's a line about the
:> Beauty isn't a Time Lord god, just an ordinary Eternal, plugged into aa
:> particular human archetype.
I've always been interested in that Vain Beauty thing. One of the big
symbolic differences between your Eternals and the Enlightenment ones -
although it's nice to have the connection confirmed - is the names, since
the Gallifreyan gods have very straightforward names embodying what they
are - Death, Time, Pain, Life possibly - and the Enlightenment ones have
what *appear* to be naturalistic human names. In this context Vain Beauty
being possibly Brett is interesting.
Is your interpretation of the names in Enlightenment that they're
actually syumbolic, just at a slightly less obvious level? Wrack could
mean destruction, Marriner is obviously apposite, Striker could be
descriptive but doesn't fit the character all that well. Critas could be
Greek for justice, and Mansell (I *think* that's his name, isn't it? The
astonishingly camp black chap) might refer to slave trading.
Just a thought.
--
Philip Alexander Hallard BA MPhil
phil.h...@english.ox.ac.uk
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~chri0073/
"And because, in all the Galaxy, they had found nothing more precious than
Mind, they encouraged its dawning everywhere. They became farmers in the
fields of stars..." Arthur C Clarke, the Odyssey Quartet
David Golding
In article <5o6jr4$2...@cappuccino.eng.umd.edu>, Jonathan Blum wrote:
>>> SPOILERS of varying intensities for: SVAS, The Also People, Happy
>>> Endings, Lungbarrow, Love and War, Revelation, Time's Crucible and
>>> Human Nature.
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>if there's one thing the Pythia represents in the collective unconscious
>of the Time Lords, it's Death -- the curse which killed the unborn
>children, the millenia of sterility which followed. They're not as
>separate as you might think...
Mmmm... overlapping imagery.
>>I reckon that there's 'Life'. When the Doctor says in 'Dying Days' that he's
>>the "Champion of Time and Life" I really hope that means this incarnation
>>has taken on another Eternal as patron. Mostly because being 'Life's
>>Champion' would fit in so well with the whole live-affirming nature of
>>PaulDoc and the cool Cheating Death themes of the TVM. Then again he could
>>just be taking about magazine subscribtions.
>
>Somehow I think you're going to like Vampire Science. :-)
>
>Life, incidentally, appears in "Lungbarrow", though she's only named in an
>oblique way. Her role would have been spelled out more in one of the bits
>cut from "Room With No Doors", but I'll let Kate decide how much she wants
>to tell about that.
I don't suppose you could give me a pointer to the relevant parts of
"Lungbarrow"?
I honestly thought that 'Champion of Life' was a metaphor with no
supernatural substantiation at all.
Paul Rhodes
chri...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Phil Hallard) wrote:
[re. Eternals]
>the Enlightenment ones have what *appear*
>to be naturalistic human names.
I think we can take it that the names adopted by the Eternals in
Enlightenment were just part of the trappings of the game. I don't
imagine those seafaring costumes were their normal clothes, either!
Paul
Jestingone
Jon Blum wrote:
:>I reckon that there's 'Life'. When the Doctor says in 'Dying Days' that
he's
:>the "Champion of Time and Life" I really hope that means this
incarnation
:>has taken on another Eternal as patron. Mostly because being 'Life's
:>Champion' would fit in so well with the whole live-affirming nature of
:>PaulDoc and the cool Cheating Death themes of the TVM. Then again he
could
:>just be taking about magazine subscribtions.
:
:Somehow I think you're going to like Vampire Science. :-)
:
:Life, incidentally, appears in "Lungbarrow", though she's only named in
an
:oblique way. Her role would have been spelled out more in one of the
bits
:cut from "Room With No Doors", but I'll let Kate decide how much she
wants
:to tell about that.
:
:As it is, we could make a pretty strong case that a character called Life
:could be used in the BBC books without infringing on Virgin copyrights...
Hmmm... first the Doctor was Time's Champion. Now he's Life's Champion.
Time. Life.
Time... Life.
Time-Life!
So, this means... what? The Doctor's US distribution will end up
consisting of the same handful of books over and over again?
M. Keane
In article <na.26b8c6479b....@argonet.co.uk>,
Phil Stanger <psta...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>I reckon that there's 'Life'. When the Doctor says in 'Dying Days' that he's
>the "Champion of Time and Life" I really hope that means this incarnation
>has taken on another Eternal as patron. Mostly because being 'Life's
>Champion' would fit in so well with the whole live-affirming nature of
>PaulDoc and the cool Cheating Death themes of the TVM. Then again he could
>just be taking about magazine subscribtions.
Speaking of cheatin death, in Batman & Robin, Batman remarks about how all
his life he's beat back death... hmmm... just another subtle hint that
Batman really is a Time Lord.
--
Micheal (Chris) Keane - Associate Professor of Psychogravitational Analysis
Wooden Chair of Gravitational Morality, University of Ediacara
Join the Church of Last Thursday and worship Queen Maeve! E-mail me to join.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia/thursday.htm
The Sinister Sponge
In article <5o6fhv$o...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
chri...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Phil Hallard) wrote:
>Is your interpretation of the names in Enlightenment that they're
>actually syumbolic, just at a slightly less obvious level? Wrack
could
>mean destruction, Marriner is obviously apposite, Striker could be
>descriptive but doesn't fit the character all that well. Critas
could be
>Greek for justice, and Mansell (I *think* that's his name, isn't
it? The
>astonishingly camp black chap) might refer to slave trading.
>
Or motor racing. :-)
On a serious note, your ideas are very interesting.
Cheers,
S. Sponge
Phil Stanger
In article <5o6jr4$2...@cappuccino.eng.umd.edu>, jb...@Glue.umd.edu (Jonathan
Blum) wrote:
> SPOILERS for vampire Science and Dying Days
> Somehow I think you're going to like Vampire Science. :-)
Oh I don't doubt that I will. It was partly your comment that you had a
"different role planned for the new boy" that got me thinking about this.
It's refreshing to finally guess something right.
> Life, incidentally, appears in "Lungbarrow", though she's only named in an
> oblique way.
Oh great. Time for my *third* re-reading.
Do the Gallifreyians get any male gods at all ?
> As it is, we could make a pretty strong case that a character called Life
> could be used in the BBC books without infringing on Virgin copyrights...
I'd be surprised if you'd have a problem getting away with using Death, Time
et al as well since they're archetypical enough to slip past copyright,
especially when they're used mostly as metaphors. The 'Cheldon Boniface' bit
in the TVM novelisation is after all only the second best Virgin reference.
-------------
Richard Jones
-------------
(And not in fact...)
--
Phil Stanger
Luke Gutzwiller
>Oh great. Time for my *third* re-reading.
>Do the Gallifreyians get any male gods at all ?
I wouldn't think so. Traditionally, religion seems to have always
been the responsibility of female Gallifreyans (the Pythia and her
ilk). If the Gods of Gallifrey are fulfilling the Time Lords'
suppressed desire for superstition and religion, then it would be only
natural to associate them all with women.
I wonder how they get along with the "sorta living god" Rassilon? He
was never very big on religion...
--
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design
something completely foolproof is to underestimate the
ingenuity of complete fools."
-- Douglas Adams
_______________________________________________________
Luke Gutzwiller [kos...@geocities.com]
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3612
Phil Stanger
In article <33ac06a4...@news.probe.net>, luc...@probe.net (Luke
Gutzwiller) wrote:
> I wonder how they get along with the "sorta living god" Rassilon? He
> was never very big on religion...
The various sects and cults devoted to Rassilon, the celebration of the life
of the Big Three and the existance of public holidays like 'Otherstide' seem
to suggest that even if the anicent Trinity of Time Lords aren't actually
worshiped they're the closest thing Gallifrey has to a state religion, as
opposed to the 'Gods' who seem to be a more underground thing in Happy
Endings. No Future says Mortimus was a monk of a Gallifreyian religion, I
wonder which one ? And if it was the Eternals I wonder which Eternal ?
It'd be great to to see something of how the more 'watchmaker'-ish Rasilion
followers interact with the worshipers of the gods. I wonder if they're as
brutal as they were dealing with the 'spawn of the Pythia' in Cold Fusion.
This, and a few other threads here at the momment, are getting me seriously
frustrated as to how many great stories there are that can only be done by
Doctor Who and only be done in the Virgin universe.
Jonathan Blum
In article <slrn45qetv1...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>,
David Golding <akn...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <5o6jr4$2...@cappuccino.eng.umd.edu>, Jonathan Blum wrote:
>>Life, incidentally, appears in "Lungbarrow", though she's only named in an
>>oblique way. Her role would have been spelled out more in one of the bits
>>cut from "Room With No Doors", but I'll let Kate decide how much she wants
>>to tell about that.
>I don't suppose you could give me a pointer to the relevant parts of
>"Lungbarrow"?
She's the rose-woman, glimpsed in dreams by Innocet (and IIRC Chris) and
conversing with the Doctor at the gateway to the past. There's only one
line which gives you a hint what her name is -- but her description would
have made it obvious who she was, *if* she had survived into the final
draft of "Room".
>I honestly thought that 'Champion of Life' was a metaphor with no
>supernatural substantiation at all.
Well, it could be... That's part of the fun, leaving it all up in the
air. :-)
--jon
Darren Briscoe
hello everyone
>
>
> --
> Phil Stanger
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>