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S09E01 The Magician's Apprentice
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Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 6:56:34 PM9/19/15
to
The Magician's Apprentice
New title sequence... there wasn't one!
After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
the worst titles in the series ever.
Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
As to what the story is actually based on, The Master Mind of Mars and
Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs both come to mind.
SPOILERS
Do now cross this point if you've not watched episode 1 or read Edgar
Rice Burroughs Barsoom series.
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The Master Mind of Skaro
So the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
mistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
screwdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the Dark
Lord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
Stephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
material for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of Mars,
The Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
Burroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
Mastermind of Mars.
The so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try to
pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors from
The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume that
they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a black
soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial the
soldiers must have been Thals.
After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in the
middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not made any
difference to the actual plot.
Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
So where is this all leading?
The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
exterminate the boy Davros.
Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
liberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
of his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the same
way Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of The
Mastermind of Mars.
3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use them
to take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so that he
could carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same reason Ras
Thavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before his experiment
went out of control and he become their servant rather than their master.
4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as Ras
Thavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
get the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
the Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
return to humanoid form.
Finally the score
10/10 for entertainment.
72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
pointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the middle
ages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just for laughs
and other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it in the first
place only to kill her off? What additional purpose does she serve? It
would have been better to have replaced all that with something more
relevant to the themes raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the
Daleks and concentrated on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended
up in the middle of a battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of
everything out of sequence is getting really annoying.
New title sequence... there wasn't one!
After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
the worst titles in the series ever.
Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
As to what the story is actually based on, The Master Mind of Mars and
Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs both come to mind.
SPOILERS
Do now cross this point if you've not watched episode 1 or read Edgar
Rice Burroughs Barsoom series.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
The Master Mind of Skaro
So the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
mistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
screwdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the Dark
Lord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
Stephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
material for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of Mars,
The Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
Burroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
Mastermind of Mars.
The so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try to
pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors from
The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume that
they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a black
soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial the
soldiers must have been Thals.
After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in the
middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not made any
difference to the actual plot.
Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
So where is this all leading?
The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
exterminate the boy Davros.
Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
liberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
of his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the same
way Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of The
Mastermind of Mars.
3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use them
to take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so that he
could carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same reason Ras
Thavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before his experiment
went out of control and he become their servant rather than their master.
4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as Ras
Thavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
get the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
the Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
return to humanoid form.
Finally the score
10/10 for entertainment.
72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
pointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the middle
ages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just for laughs
and other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it in the first
place only to kill her off? What additional purpose does she serve? It
would have been better to have replaced all that with something more
relevant to the themes raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the
Daleks and concentrated on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended
up in the middle of a battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of
everything out of sequence is getting really annoying.
Mike Hall
Sep 19, 2015, 7:22:20 PM9/19/15
to
> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
> with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in the
> middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not made any
> difference to the actual plot.
Added in to patronise kids I think.
> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
> with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in the
> middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not made any
> difference to the actual plot.
> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
> the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
> destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
> dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>
> So where is this all leading?
> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
> exterminate the boy Davros.
>
> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
timey-wimey dance.
> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>
> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>
> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
> 2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
> liberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
> of his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the same
> way Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of The
> Mastermind of Mars.
>
> 3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use them
> to take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so that he
> could carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same reason Ras
> Thavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before his experiment
> went out of control and he become their servant rather than their master.
>
> 4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as Ras
> Thavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
>
> 5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
> get the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
> the Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
>
> 6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
> return to humanoid form.
Daleks, claiming timey-wimey as her motivation.
> Finally the score
>
> 10/10 for entertainment.
>
> 72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
> pointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the middle
> ages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just for laughs
> and other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it in the first
> place only to kill her off? What additional purpose does she serve? It
> would have been better to have replaced all that with something more
> relevant to the themes raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the
> Daleks and concentrated on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended
> up in the middle of a battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of
> everything out of sequence is getting really annoying.
death count. Seriously, did anyone think that 8 sniper business was any
comfort to a time-traveller like Clara?
Mike Hall
The Doctor
Sep 19, 2015, 7:32:11 PM9/19/15
to
In article <OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
So 172/200 -> 8.6/10
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Time for Stephen to move on on Oct 19 2015!!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Time for Stephen to move on on Oct 19 2015!!
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 7:36:38 PM9/19/15
to
They are two separate marks.
The Doctor
Sep 19, 2015, 7:38:10 PM9/19/15
to
In article <DsedndfmcL8ZbGDI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Got you.
Have a good night. My review in 2.3 hours time.
Have a good night. My review in 2.3 hours time.
Stephen Wilson
Sep 19, 2015, 7:57:10 PM9/19/15
to
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk...
> The Magician's Apprentice
>
> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>
> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be the
> worst titles in the series ever.
>
> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where was
> Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
Why do you think they should use music by Grieg in Doctor Who now? I don't
>
> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>
> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be the
> worst titles in the series ever.
>
> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where was
> Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
think they ever have in the past.
Why do you think Mickey Mouse should be in it? He's a cartoon character
owned by Disney, not the BBC.
There was plenty of magic in it. People turning into snakes. Invisible
planets. Clara and Missy travelling through time. The Doctor playing
electric guitar. Etc, etc, etc.
Oh yeah, and was I right about Davros, or was I right?
The Doctor
Sep 19, 2015, 8:27:21 PM9/19/15
to
In article <pDmLx.344891$GG3.2...@fx10.am4>,
Score 1 point SW.
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 8:45:55 PM9/19/15
to
On 20/09/2015 00:57, Stephen Wilson wrote:
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk...
>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>
>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>>
>> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
>> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
>> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be the
>> worst titles in the series ever.
>>
>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where was
>> Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>
> Why do you think they should use music by Grieg in Doctor Who now? I don't
> think they ever have in the past.
Because that is what most people associate with The Magician's
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk...
>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>
>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>>
>> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
>> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
>> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be the
>> worst titles in the series ever.
>>
>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where was
>> Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>
> Why do you think they should use music by Grieg in Doctor Who now? I don't
> think they ever have in the past.
Apprentice. Ok Sorcerers Apprentice.
>
> Why do you think Mickey Mouse should be in it? He's a cartoon character
> owned by Disney, not the BBC.
Apprentice or Sorcerers Apprentice.
>
> There was plenty of magic in it. People turning into snakes. Invisible
> planets. Clara and Missy travelling through time. The Doctor playing
> electric guitar. Etc, etc, etc.
>
> Oh yeah, and was I right about Davros, or was I right?
>
possible. It would have fitted the Black Guardian better and now Davros
is The Dark Lord? Not Morgoth? Not Melkor? Not the Master? Now he's
Darth Vader? Voldemort? Someone better go and edit Wikipedia.
Why does the Doctor think he's going to die? What was he doing on Skaro
when Davros was a boy? What does Missy have to do with it? Don't they
Daleks remember him from the TVM and Frontier in Space? Why are the
Sisters of Karn involved?
What happened to all the exposition? Wasted on the Doctor's rock guitar.
TB
Sep 19, 2015, 9:17:29 PM9/19/15
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A kid is trapped in a field of hands eager to grab him. The Doctor shows up, urges him to go for his slim change of survivor, and asks him his name. "Davros" the kid answers. The Doctor stands there, shocked, as the kid pleads with him to help him.
Could it be that the Doctor then left poor Davros standing there and went away in the TARDIS?
Its no wonder Davros hates him!
If the Doctor didn't save Davros, how did he escape?
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A kid is trapped in a field of hands eager to grab him. The Doctor shows up, urges him to go for his slim change of survivor, and asks him his name. "Davros" the kid answers. The Doctor stands there, shocked, as the kid pleads with him to help him.
Could it be that the Doctor then left poor Davros standing there and went away in the TARDIS?
Its no wonder Davros hates him!
If the Doctor didn't save Davros, how did he escape?
TB
Sep 19, 2015, 9:22:47 PM9/19/15
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Planes are standing still in the air, as if time has stopped. No word yet if any helicopters or birds are affected.
Meanwhile, the Doctor is MIA. Davros is demanding his presence, saying that he remembers the long ago confrontation in the field of hands when he was a child. Why didn't Davros ever remember the hand field incident earlier?
Why isn't Clara frantically phoning the Doctor on her cell phone?
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Planes are standing still in the air, as if time has stopped. No word yet if any helicopters or birds are affected.
Meanwhile, the Doctor is MIA. Davros is demanding his presence, saying that he remembers the long ago confrontation in the field of hands when he was a child. Why didn't Davros ever remember the hand field incident earlier?
Why isn't Clara frantically phoning the Doctor on her cell phone?
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 9:23:41 PM9/19/15
to
speak to the Doctor seemed to put on an American accent and then he lost
it.
>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
>> the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
>> destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
>> dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>
>> So where is this all leading?
>
> To an unused River Song story with Missy taking her place...
>
another script written for Matt Smith again. You'd think Moffat would
have had long enough to adjust the character to Capaldi's personality
and style of acting. Seems not.
>> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>
>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>
> Probably the TARDIS, creating some sort of wormhole which does a
> timey-wimey dance.
>
>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>
>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>
>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>
> Missy is the witch. Clara is the familliar.
guy with the Dalek eyestalk that popped out of his head may have been
regarded as the Apprenticed if only the prequel footage had been
included in the actual episode, except that it mainly consisted of the
Doctor prancing around trying to find a location for a well which was
only vaguely alluded to in the episode itself.
unaccompanied and thus saved those innocent lives. Or better still
exchanged text messages.
>
> Mike Hall
>
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 9:29:16 PM9/19/15
to
> Meanwhile, the Doctor is MIA. Davros is demanding his presence, saying that he remembers the long ago confrontation in the field of hands when he was a child. Why didn't Davros ever remember the hand field incident earlier?
>
Daleks because they using a time bracelet (vortex manipulator?) to get
there. But in Destiny of the Daleks he sent half a dozen Dalek suicide
bombers to destroy it though.
> Why isn't Clara frantically phoning the Doctor on her cell phone?
>
TB
Sep 19, 2015, 9:35:01 PM9/19/15
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Missy has invited Clara to talk to her. Missy can't find the Doctor either! Someone has delivered to Missy the Doctor's last will and testament. Missy is therefore worried about the Doctor's safety. This makes a certain twisted amount of sense. During "Last of the Time Lords", the Doctor was trying to save the Master!
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She has frozen all the planes. Clara gets her to free the planes, then works with her to find the Doctor. Clara and Missy realize that if the Doctor was expecting to die soon, he would be meditating on his sins and regrets. If Missy ever expected to die, would SHE be meditating too? They locate the Doctor on what appears to be an island off Northern Europe.
Is that the Doctor playing a guitar?
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 9:40:31 PM9/19/15
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the TARDIS is the dogs dodars.
TB
Sep 19, 2015, 9:58:31 PM9/19/15
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As I feared, the Doctor did indeed abandon the child Davros in the field of hands! I wonder how in the world he escaped, and why it took him so long to remember that incident.
The Doctor has come to talk to Davros. Meanwhile, Missy and Clara venture out of the space station, and discover it to be on an invisible planet! The planet then appears, and turns out to be Skaro. Clara didn't know about Skaro. (Why hadn't the Doctor ever told her about Skaro?).
Pudentame
Sep 19, 2015, 10:09:44 PM9/19/15
to
the kid.
Davros still becomes a monster, but it's not The Doctor's fault.
Neither Missy nor Clara were exterminated. They were both still
wearing the vortex manipulators & Claras was slaved to Missy's.
The Doctor
Sep 19, 2015, 10:20:03 PM9/19/15
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Pudentame
Sep 19, 2015, 10:25:04 PM9/19/15
to
>On 19/09/2015 23:56, Agamemnon wrote:
>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>
I liked it.
>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>
The Doctor's the magician, Davros is the apprentice.
The Doctor
Sep 19, 2015, 10:25:57 PM9/19/15
to
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 10:53:16 PM9/19/15
to
>
> Davros still becomes a monster, but it's not The Doctor's fault.
>
continuity. Davros was perfectly capable of being evil all by himself.
Besides which Davros is supposed to have ended up in that chair because
of an explosion in his lab and that's mentioned both in the novels and
the Big Finish 6th Doctor story Davros.
> Neither Missy nor Clara were exterminated. They were both still
> wearing the vortex manipulators & Claras was slaved to Missy's.
>
in the blue light? Same with the TARDIS?
Agamemnon
Sep 19, 2015, 10:54:44 PM9/19/15
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Doctor until his 13th incarnation.
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 12:57:30 AM9/20/15
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The child Davros is standing in a "hand mine field". The Doctor arrives and throws him a sonic screwdriver to serve as an acoustic corridor so that they can talk. The Doctor urges him to go for his slim chance of survival, and asks him his name. When Davros answers, a stunned Doctor leaves. I wonder how Davros survived that situation. Did he somehow figure out how to use the sonic screwdriver to stun the hands?
Did he later reverse engineer the sonic screwdriver technology to help him create the Daleks?
The planes (over 4,000!) are frozen in the air. 9/11 reference: The head of UNIT is worried that someone might crash the planes into nuclear power plants or into faults.
Missy hints that the Doctor was once a little girl!
Missy rebuts the allegation that she has turned good by vaporizing a couple of soldiers.
Time Lords meditate on their sins and regrets when they are about to die. However, the Doctor has been partying a few hundreds years in the past for three weeks! How is that meditating? The Doctor plays a guitar when challenged to an ax fight. How is a guitar an ax? The Doctor shows off a military tank that he had ordered for his fish.
Why didn't the Doctor replace the sonic screwdriver he had given to Davros?
The Master of Ceremonies is a Dalek in human form. The Daleks order him to procure the TARDIS. How nice of the Daleks to bring the TARDIS to Skaro with them!
Out of the windows of the ship that takes the Doctor, Missy, and Clara to Davro's hideout, one can see streaking stars like on Star Trek!
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The child Davros is standing in a "hand mine field". The Doctor arrives and throws him a sonic screwdriver to serve as an acoustic corridor so that they can talk. The Doctor urges him to go for his slim chance of survival, and asks him his name. When Davros answers, a stunned Doctor leaves. I wonder how Davros survived that situation. Did he somehow figure out how to use the sonic screwdriver to stun the hands?
Did he later reverse engineer the sonic screwdriver technology to help him create the Daleks?
The planes (over 4,000!) are frozen in the air. 9/11 reference: The head of UNIT is worried that someone might crash the planes into nuclear power plants or into faults.
Missy hints that the Doctor was once a little girl!
Missy rebuts the allegation that she has turned good by vaporizing a couple of soldiers.
Time Lords meditate on their sins and regrets when they are about to die. However, the Doctor has been partying a few hundreds years in the past for three weeks! How is that meditating? The Doctor plays a guitar when challenged to an ax fight. How is a guitar an ax? The Doctor shows off a military tank that he had ordered for his fish.
Why didn't the Doctor replace the sonic screwdriver he had given to Davros?
The Master of Ceremonies is a Dalek in human form. The Daleks order him to procure the TARDIS. How nice of the Daleks to bring the TARDIS to Skaro with them!
Out of the windows of the ship that takes the Doctor, Missy, and Clara to Davro's hideout, one can see streaking stars like on Star Trek!
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 1:15:27 AM9/20/15
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At the end, Missy tries to persuade the Daleks to spare the TARDIS by offering to teach them how to use it, thus enhancing their power in the universe. Missy has forgotten that the Daleks ALREADY have time travel technology!
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The Daleks zap Missy, Clara, and the TARDIS. I could even see the skeletons of Missy and Clara! I had read that Jenna Colman was going to leave the series. I just hadn't expected her to leave in the very first episode!
The episode ends with the Doctor reappearing on the hand mine field aiming a weapon at Davros, and crying "exterminate", saying that its the only way to save his friends. How did he go back in time? His TARDIS has been vaporized, and he didn't appear to have a vortex generator.
If he does kill Davros, the time line will be rocked!
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 1:16:25 AM9/20/15
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Mike Hall
Sep 20, 2015, 8:00:52 AM9/20/15
to
>>>> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
>>>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>>>
>>>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>>>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>>>
>>> Probably the TARDIS, creating some sort of wormhole which does a
>>> timey-wimey dance.
>>>
>>
>> You're missing the obvious. The Doctor shoots the hand mines & frees
>> the kid.
>
> That's far too obvious.
He would have to shoot it a few times too.
>>>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>>>
>>>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>>>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>>>
>>> Probably the TARDIS, creating some sort of wormhole which does a
>>> timey-wimey dance.
>>>
>>
>> You're missing the obvious. The Doctor shoots the hand mines & frees
>> the kid.
>
> That's far too obvious.
>> Davros still becomes a monster, but it's not The Doctor's fault.
>>
>
> It never was to begin with. Why does Moffat have to mess around with
> continuity. Davros was perfectly capable of being evil all by himself.
> Besides which Davros is supposed to have ended up in that chair because
> of an explosion in his lab and that's mentioned both in the novels and
> the Big Finish 6th Doctor story Davros.
>
>> Neither Missy nor Clara were exterminated. They were both still
>> wearing the vortex manipulators & Claras was slaved to Missy's.
> So it was all precisely timed just at the point their skeletons appeared
> in the blue light?
> Same with the TARDIS?
The TARDIS exists in multiple dimensions. The daleks may well have just
destroyed the door and forced new stylish, probably Scottish decor
inside. Having both the Doctor and Missy both being portrayed by
Glasweigan actors filled me with a lot of dread ever since Clara stated
that "going all Scottish" is one of the Doctor's sanctions. I'm
wondering if they were given license to use their natural accents
whenever they feel like it. Will they really start stereotyping ending
up with Missy nutting a CGI dalek?
Mike Hall
The Doctor
Sep 20, 2015, 8:33:29 AM9/20/15
to
In article <z-CdnehFVMkGgmPI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
All right. Doctor 4 - Do I have the right . Now what about
the Doctor helping Young Davros?
>> Neither Missy nor Clara were exterminated. They were both still
>> wearing the vortex manipulators & Claras was slaved to Missy's.
>>
>
>So it was all precisely timed just at the point their skeletons appeared
>in the blue light? Same with the TARDIS?
>
>
REcall the Cyberbrigadier killing Missy.
the Doctor helping Young Davros?
>> Neither Missy nor Clara were exterminated. They were both still
>> wearing the vortex manipulators & Claras was slaved to Missy's.
>>
>
>So it was all precisely timed just at the point their skeletons appeared
>in the blue light? Same with the TARDIS?
>
>
The Doctor
Sep 20, 2015, 8:36:50 AM9/20/15
to
In article <0bd7f0dc-6173-4b3b...@googlegroups.com>,
>ing to teach them how to use it, thus enhancing their power in the universe=
>s of Missy and Clara! I had read that Jenna Colman was going to leave the =
>a weapon at Davros, and crying "exterminate", saying that its the only way =
>to save his friends. How did he go back in time? His TARDIS has been vapo=
TB <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
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>At the end, Missy tries to persuade the Daleks to spare the TARDIS by offer=
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>ing to teach them how to use it, thus enhancing their power in the universe=
>. Missy has forgotten that the Daleks ALREADY have time travel technology!
>
>The Daleks zap Missy, Clara, and the TARDIS. I could even see the skeleton=
>
>s of Missy and Clara! I had read that Jenna Colman was going to leave the =
>series. I just hadn't expected her to leave in the very first episode!
>
>The episode ends with the Doctor reappearing on the hand mine field aiming =
>
>a weapon at Davros, and crying "exterminate", saying that its the only way =
>to save his friends. How did he go back in time? His TARDIS has been vapo=
>rized, and he didn't appear to have a vortex generator.
>
>If he does kill Davros, the time line will be rocked!
>
Recall how the cyberbrigadier killed Missy.
>
>If he does kill Davros, the time line will be rocked!
>
The Doctor
Sep 20, 2015, 8:37:08 AM9/20/15
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Stephen Wilson
Sep 20, 2015, 10:33:28 AM9/20/15
to
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> On 20/09/2015 00:57, Stephen Wilson wrote:
>> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>> news:OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk...
>>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>>
>>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>>>
>>> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
>>> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
>>> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
>>> the
>>> worst titles in the series ever.
>>>
>>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
>>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
>>> was
>>> Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>>
>> Why do you think they should use music by Grieg in Doctor Who now? I
>> don't
>> think they ever have in the past.
>
> Because that is what most people associate with The Magician's Apprentice.
> Ok Sorcerers Apprentice.
No it's not. Most people tend to associate the music of "The Sorcerer's
>> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>> news:OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk...
>>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>>
>>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>>>
>>> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
>>> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
>>> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
>>> the
>>> worst titles in the series ever.
>>>
>>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
>>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
>>> was
>>> Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>>
>> Why do you think they should use music by Grieg in Doctor Who now? I
>> don't
>> think they ever have in the past.
>
> Because that is what most people associate with The Magician's Apprentice.
> Ok Sorcerers Apprentice.
Apprentice" with the Sorcerer's Apprentice. And that was written by Paul
Dukas, not Grieg.
>>
>> Why do you think Mickey Mouse should be in it? He's a cartoon character
>> owned by Disney, not the BBC.
>
> Because that is what most people associate with The Magician's Apprentice
> or Sorcerers Apprentice.
>>
>> There was plenty of magic in it. People turning into snakes. Invisible
>> planets. Clara and Missy travelling through time. The Doctor playing
>> electric guitar. Etc, etc, etc.
>>
>
> Magic, you call that magic? Where was Paul Daniels?
to people in Wigan.
>> Oh yeah, and was I right about Davros, or was I right?
>>
>
> Only because Moffat shoehorned in a contrived back story to make it
> possible. It would have fitted the Black Guardian better and now Davros is
> The Dark Lord? Not Morgoth? Not Melkor? Not the Master? Now he's Darth
> Vader? Voldemort? Someone better go and edit Wikipedia.
(or Evil Overlord) is often used to refer to a powerful villain/antagonist
with evil henchmen." Sounds like a rather apt description of Davros.
> Why does the Doctor think he's going to die? What was he doing on Skaro
> when Davros was a boy?
> What does Missy have to do with it? Don't they Daleks remember him from
> the TVM and Frontier in Space? Why are the Sisters of Karn involved?
the references.
> What happened to all the exposition? Wasted on the Doctor's rock guitar.
Andrew M
Sep 20, 2015, 10:58:40 AM9/20/15
to
On 2015-09-19 22:56:28 +0000, Agamemnon said:
> The Magician's Apprentice
>
> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>
> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
> the worst titles in the series ever.
>
> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom
> sticks carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite?
> Where was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
Comment dropped to beneath spoiler space
> The Magician's Apprentice
>
> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>
> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
> the worst titles in the series ever.
>
> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom
> sticks carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite?
> Where was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
> The Master Mind of Skaro
The Magician is the Doctor - the axe-wielding barbarian-cum-dalek uses
that term to describe him. It seems that the Doctor's decision not to
save the boy Davros taught him a lesson in callousness making Davros
the Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is
simply a familiar title
>
> So the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
> mistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
> screwdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the
> Dark Lord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
>
> Stephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
> material for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of Mars,
> The Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
> Burroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
> Mastermind of Mars.
>
> The so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try
> to pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors
> from The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume
> that they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a
> black soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial
> the soldiers must have been Thals.
>
> to pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors
> from The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume
> that they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a
> black soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial
> the soldiers must have been Thals.
>
> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing
> around with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in
> the middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not
> made any difference to the actual plot.
The "prancing around" you refer to exists to create light and shade
> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing
> around with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in
> the middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not
> made any difference to the actual plot.
within what would otherwise be a somewhat dreich plot. Even Shakespeare
included fools in his tragedies
>
> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
> the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
> destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
> dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>
> So where is this all leading?
>
> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
> exterminate the boy Davros.
>
> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
"Today's standards" have nothing to do with it. Doctor Who's
> exterminate the boy Davros.
>
> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
cliffhangers have often involved misdirection. A cliffhanger that, for
example, really did see the Doctor obliterated might be a little hard
to follow up
>
> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>
> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>
> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find your
association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>
> 2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
> liberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
> of his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the same
> way Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of The
> Mastermind of Mars.
>
> 3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use them
> to take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so that he
> could carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same reason Ras
> Thavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before his experiment
> went out of control and he become their servant rather than their
> master.
>
> 4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as
> Ras Thavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
>
> 5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
> get the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
> the Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
>
> 6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
> return to humanoid form.
in its own right
>
> Finally the score
>
> 10/10 for entertainment.
>
> 72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
> pointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the
> middle ages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just
> for laughs and other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it
> in the first place only to kill her off?
> What additional purpose does she serve? It would have been better to
> have replaced all that with something more relevant to the themes
> raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the Daleks and concentrated
> on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended up in the middle of a
> battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of everything out of
> sequence is getting really annoying.
up in the middle of a battlefield. The set-up would have to have
preceded his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on
things being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect
of the revelation of his name.
Stephen Wilson
Sep 20, 2015, 11:09:22 AM9/20/15
to
"Mike Hall" <tar...@spam3spam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SdxLx.550523$121.3...@fx19.am4...
speak English - they're actually speaking some Gallifreyan language which is
translated by the TARDIS. So, maybe just as the chameleon circuit refuses to
turn the outer shell into anything other than a police box, perhaps its
translation circuit is now also malfunctioning and has decided that all Time
Lords should have Scottish accents.
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 11:35:55 AM9/20/15
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When Davros was a child and standing in a "hand mine" field, the Doctor threw him his sonic screwdriver. Davros still had it centuries or millenia later. Davros has appeared in several prior episodes. Why didn't we ever see him use that sonic screwdriver before?
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The Doctor has been in imminent danger of death on many occasions. Why didn't we ever see his will before?
Agamemnon
Sep 20, 2015, 2:32:18 PM9/20/15
to
half of it when it was on at Christmas.
>
>>>
>>> Why do you think Mickey Mouse should be in it? He's a cartoon character
>>> owned by Disney, not the BBC.
>>
>> Because that is what most people associate with The Magician's Apprentice
>> or Sorcerers Apprentice.
>
> It is? Based on which surveys?
>
>>>
>>> There was plenty of magic in it. People turning into snakes. Invisible
>>> planets. Clara and Missy travelling through time. The Doctor playing
>>> electric guitar. Etc, etc, etc.
>>>
>>
>> Magic, you call that magic? Where was Paul Daniels?
>
> Yeah, I call that magic. Paul Daniels was probably trying to sell gimmicks
> to people in Wigan.
>
>>> Oh yeah, and was I right about Davros, or was I right?
>>>
>>
>> Only because Moffat shoehorned in a contrived back story to make it
>> possible. It would have fitted the Black Guardian better and now Davros is
>> The Dark Lord? Not Morgoth? Not Melkor? Not the Master? Now he's Darth
>> Vader? Voldemort? Someone better go and edit Wikipedia.
>
> Perhaps you should actually check Wikipedia yourself. "In fiction, Dark Lord
> (or Evil Overlord) is often used to refer to a powerful villain/antagonist
> with evil henchmen." Sounds like a rather apt description of Davros.
and Hitler. Why wasn't Hitler ever called the Dark Lord?
>
>> Why does the Doctor think he's going to die? What was he doing on Skaro
>> when Davros was a boy?
>
> Don't ask awkward questions that would spoil the story's rationale...
>
did he waste half an hour on pointless comedy instead of explaining the
rationale.
>> What does Missy have to do with it? Don't they Daleks remember him from
>> the TVM and Frontier in Space? Why are the Sisters of Karn involved?
>
> Because Moffat knew that it would excite any long-term fans who would get
> the references.
>
season opener ever, since the new series began.
The Daleks, Davros and the Master all in one episode and Moffat blew it.
Firstly he gave it a title that had no relation to the actual content.
Then all the trailers seemed like they were a montage of the entire
season rather than one single episode, a UNIT story, a Middle Ages
story, a Dalek story. Were there Zygons in it too? Thirdly instead of
concentrating on the story of young Davros and why the Doctor was on
Skaro he wastes half an hour on the Doctor idiotically prancing around
with a rock guitar and Missy fooling around with Clara and yet another
plot where the Doctor has a pointless premonition of his own death just
to further the comedy. Fourthly the stupid clockwork title sequence the
worst in the entire history of the show and fifthly Moffat ripping the
whole idea of saving young Davros who everyone knows grows up to be the
Dark Lord of Skaro off The Phantom Menace which is regarded as the worst
ever Star Wars movie.
Moffat totally screwed up and it seems like the brief for this story was
to find a way to reuse all the props and sets that were made for An
Adventure in Space and Time.
>> What happened to all the exposition? Wasted on the Doctor's rock guitar.
>
> The Doctor's rock guitar was way cooler. As far as Moffat's concerned...
>
>
It would have been better after the big reveal at the start to have gone
back to what happened earlier and shown how Davros and the Doctor ended
up on the battlefield on Skaro.
The best way to have done this is not to have made the same mistakes as
The Phantom Menace. There should have been no attempt at childish comedy
and very little humour. Davros should have been older, maybe 18 and just
about graduate from university and become an intern at a major
biological and scientific research foundation. The Doctor should have
met him not knowing who he was, probably with him having a different
name and made friends with him and discussed his ambitions finding out
that Davros was a pacifist. Then as the story progresses we find out
that the scientists are involved in research for creating a remote
controlled biological drone to win the war with. Eventually the Doctor
realises that these drones are similar to Daleks and he figures out that
he's on Skaro in the middle of the Thal-Kaled war. After exploring the
motives of each side the story progresses to the point where the Doctor
and Davros are on the battlefield and Davros is trapped in a mine field.
Will the Doctor save him. Earlier exposition should have already dealt
with the fact that if Davros had not created the Daleks then someone
else would.
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 3:54:42 PM9/20/15
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Possible new method of bringing back Danny Pink!
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Assuming that both Missy and Clara survived the Dalek death rays, I suggest that Missy offer to help Clara rescue Danny. If Clara accepted, then Missy and Clara would go to her house (just after Danny sent that Afghan Kid through) to recover the Cyber control device Danny had used to save that Kid. Then repair the Cyber control device, then zip into the Nethersphere to rescue Danny and anyone else Clara might want to save.
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The Doctor
Sep 20, 2015, 4:55:31 PM9/20/15
to
In article <XszLx.474713$7R2.1...@fx03.am4>,
Moffat might make Rod Stewart look like a rock star.
Pudentame
Sep 20, 2015, 5:09:24 PM9/20/15
to
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:34:22 +0100, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wils...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>news:e6SdnQpfd_JfnGPI...@eclipse.net.uk...
<stephen.wils...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>>
>> Because that is what most people associate with The Magician's Apprentice.
>> Ok Sorcerers Apprentice.
>
>No it's not. Most people tend to associate the music of "The Sorcerer's
>Apprentice" with the Sorcerer's Apprentice. And that was written by Paul
>Dukas, not Grieg.
>
Mickey Mouse segment from "Fantasia" or the 2010 Nicholas Cage film
(from Disney) that was based upon it.
If you Google "The Magician's Apprentice", it turns up the Doctor Who
episode.
There doesn't appear to be a lot of confusion between the two.
>>>
>>> There was plenty of magic in it. People turning into snakes. Invisible
>>> planets. Clara and Missy travelling through time. The Doctor playing
>>> electric guitar. Etc, etc, etc.
>>>
>>
is indistinguishable from magic"
The converse is also true.
>> Why does the Doctor think he's going to die? What was he doing on Skaro
>> when Davros was a boy?
>
>Don't ask awkward questions that would spoil the story's rationale...
>
for a bookshop.
>> What does Missy have to do with it? Don't they Daleks remember him from
>> the TVM and Frontier in Space? Why are the Sisters of Karn involved?
>
>Because Moffat knew that it would excite any long-term fans who would get
>the references.
>
>> What happened to all the exposition? Wasted on the Doctor's rock guitar.
>
> The Doctor's rock guitar was way cooler. As far as Moffat's concerned...
>
puns out of their systems - bought a tank on-line to keep fish in!!
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 5:21:54 PM9/20/15
to
Pudentame
Sep 20, 2015, 6:28:33 PM9/20/15
to
And another thing ...
The story harks back to the first Dalek story out of Tom Baker's
tenure as the Doctor.
It's the question The Doctor asks when he's trying to decide whether
or not he has the right to destroy the proto-Dalek mutants in "Genesis
of the Daleks"
"... if someone who knew the future pointed out a child to you and
told you that that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless
dictator who would destroy millions of lives, could you then kill that
child?"
Also, pay attention to:
"That number of suicide moons cannot be ignored."
This could well be significant later in the season.
The story harks back to the first Dalek story out of Tom Baker's
tenure as the Doctor.
It's the question The Doctor asks when he's trying to decide whether
or not he has the right to destroy the proto-Dalek mutants in "Genesis
of the Daleks"
"... if someone who knew the future pointed out a child to you and
told you that that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless
dictator who would destroy millions of lives, could you then kill that
child?"
Also, pay attention to:
"That number of suicide moons cannot be ignored."
This could well be significant later in the season.
The Doctor
Sep 20, 2015, 6:34:45 PM9/20/15
to
In article <341da6d1-df22-484a...@googlegroups.com>,
>Davros has a recording of the 4th Doctor (Genesis of the Daleks) asking if =
>he had the right to exterminate the Daleks, and asking his Companions if th=
>ey could kill a child who was destined to become a totally evil adult. Sho=
>rtly after that recording was made, Davros was "exterminated" by the Daleks=
> (but survived to to some auxiliary force field/stasis field). The bunker =
>was then sealed for at least 1,000 years. The Daleks then broke out to sta=
>rt their reign of terror. Eventually, they abandoned Skaros. Centuries la=
>ter, they came back for Davros to help them beat the Movellians. How in th=
>e world did the recording survive in a ruined bunker for all the time that =
>Davros was in stasis?
>
Must be Skaran technology.
>he had the right to exterminate the Daleks, and asking his Companions if th=
>ey could kill a child who was destined to become a totally evil adult. Sho=
>rtly after that recording was made, Davros was "exterminated" by the Daleks=
> (but survived to to some auxiliary force field/stasis field). The bunker =
>was then sealed for at least 1,000 years. The Daleks then broke out to sta=
>rt their reign of terror. Eventually, they abandoned Skaros. Centuries la=
>ter, they came back for Davros to help them beat the Movellians. How in th=
>e world did the recording survive in a ruined bunker for all the time that =
>Davros was in stasis?
>
Must be Skaran technology.
Agamemnon
Sep 20, 2015, 7:43:49 PM9/20/15
to
save him yet otherwise I might have come to the came conclusion.
> Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is simply
> a familiar title
>
what was in the box.
>>
>> So the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
>> mistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
>> screwdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the
>> Dark Lord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
>>
>> Stephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
>> material for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of
>> Mars, The Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
>> Burroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
>> Mastermind of Mars.
>>
>> The so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try
>> to pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors
>> from The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume
>> that they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a
>> black soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be
>> multiracial the soldiers must have been Thals.
>>
>> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
>> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing
>> around with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in
>> the middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not
>> made any difference to the actual plot.
>
> The "prancing around" you refer to exists to create light and shade
> within what would otherwise be a somewhat dreich plot. Even Shakespeare
> included fools in his tragedies
making idiotic jokes about tanks or zapping innocent people to death
will nilly. Those scenes especially the Doctors were a badly written
comedy fest that ruined the entire episode.
>
>>
>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along
>> with the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the
>> TARDIS destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells
>> him he's dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>
>> So where is this all leading?
>>
>> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>
>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>
> "Today's standards" have nothing to do with it. Doctor Who's
> cliffhangers have often involved misdirection. A cliffhanger that, for
> example, really did see the Doctor obliterated might be a little hard to
> follow up
idiotic level. Davros is obviously still alive in the future therefore
he can't have died in the past.
>
>
>>
>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>
>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>
>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>
> No. Let's call it "The Witch's Familiar" trying to preguess where a
> story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
> earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find your
> association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>
creator and making them into their slave like he is now was obtained
from around chapters 4 to 6 of Synthetic Men of Mars and Davros was
based on Ras Thavas. The Daleks evolution into nothing more than heads
with tentacles, their actual appearance and belief that they were the
superior being in the universe and their infallibility was derived from
the Kaldanes from The Chessmen of Mars.
soldier and therefore his motivation.
> his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on things
> being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect of the
> revelation of his name.
badly this episode did in the ratings with only 4.58. That's the worst
season opener of the new series and one of the lowest ratings ever.
The Doctor
Sep 20, 2015, 7:46:46 PM9/20/15
to
Andrew M
Sep 20, 2015, 8:09:07 PM9/20/15
to
there. That the Doctor muses on the question "Who made Davros?" is
another. That The Doctor had gone when the smoke cleared... I could go
on
>
>> Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is simply
>> a familiar title
>>
>
> It lost the episodes 2-4 million in the ratings since it didn't
> describe what was in the box.
the show at time of airing. Those who didn't tune in couldn't have
known what the story did, or did not involve
jokes about the ability of men to have sex when they are drunk. That
you didn't like the scene is fair enough - it didn't entirely wow me
either: I thought it too long. I did not, though, think it "ruined the
episode"
>
>>
>>>
>>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along
>>> with the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the
>>> TARDIS destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells
>>> him he's dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>>
>>> So where is this all leading?
>>>
>>> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
>>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>>
>>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>>
>> "Today's standards" have nothing to do with it. Doctor Who's
>> cliffhangers have often involved misdirection. A cliffhanger that, for
>> example, really did see the Doctor obliterated might be a little hard to
>> follow up
>
> No. Classic Doctor Who rarely involved misdirection on that obvious
> idiotic level. Davros is obviously still alive in the future therefore
> he can't have died in the past.
wouldn't it? The Timelords sent The Doctor back into the past to
prevent the creation of the Daleks. The Daleks clearly existed in their
future so - by your argument - they could not have been destroyed in
the past. Rather takes the dramatic edge out of that classic serial,
doesn't it?
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>>
>>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>>
>>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>>
>> No. Let's call it "The Witch's Familiar" trying to preguess where a
>> story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
>> earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find your
>> association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>>
>
> The premise of Genesis of the Dalkes with the Daleks turning on their
> creator and making them into their slave like he is now was obtained
> from around chapters 4 to 6 of Synthetic Men of Mars and Davros was
> based on Ras Thavas. The Daleks evolution into nothing more than heads
> with tentacles, their actual appearance and belief that they were the
> superior being in the universe and their infallibility was derived from
> the Kaldanes from The Chessmen of Mars.
encounter with The Doctor (may have) shaped his future development. The
storyteller is telling you the The Doctor (it seems) believes this may
have been the case. Insisting that the storyteller should have brought
in a whole extra set of threads to the narrative that might have made
this more complex is entirely a reasonable point for a novel, but in a
45-minute television story I'm not sure it would have added anything
significant
>
>> his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on things
>> being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect of the
>> revelation of his name.
>
> Which would have meant nothing other than to serious fans. Look at how
> badly this episode did in the ratings with only 4.58. That's the worst
> season opener of the new series and one of the lowest ratings ever.
who didn't - HADN"T SEEN the episode. Judging the episode by the rating
is nonsensical. What it actually means is that what has gone before,
and the BBC's publicity, were not enough to get people to watch
Agamemnon
Sep 20, 2015, 8:53:35 PM9/20/15
to
Davros recorded in the original story in the first place.
>
TB
Sep 20, 2015, 9:19:49 PM9/20/15
to
Agamemnon
Sep 20, 2015, 9:28:04 PM9/20/15
to
>>
>>> Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is simply
>>> a familiar title
>>>
>>
>> It lost the episodes 2-4 million in the ratings since it didn't
>> describe what was in the box.
>
> That's a nonsensical statement. Those ratings are those that watched the
> show at time of airing. Those who didn't tune in couldn't have known
> what the story did, or did not involve
It's seems that around 2-4 million of them left on average during the
whole 50 minutes.
cracking idiotic jokes about tanks they couldn't possible understand.
> didn't like the scene is fair enough - it didn't entirely wow me either:
> I thought it too long. I did not, though, think it "ruined the episode"
>
could have been more wisely spent on exposition of the main theme. It
ruined what could have been a good story with idiotic fooling around
instead.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along
>>>> with the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the
>>>> TARDIS destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells
>>>> him he's dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>>>
>>>> So where is this all leading?
>>>>
>>>> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
>>>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>>>
>>>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>>>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>>>
>>> "Today's standards" have nothing to do with it. Doctor Who's
>>> cliffhangers have often involved misdirection. A cliffhanger that, for
>>> example, really did see the Doctor obliterated might be a little hard to
>>> follow up
>>
>> No. Classic Doctor Who rarely involved misdirection on that obvious
>> idiotic level. Davros is obviously still alive in the future therefore
>> he can't have died in the past.
>
> Which would make the whole of "Genesis Of The Daleks" nonsense, wouldn't
> it? The Timelords sent The Doctor back into the past to prevent the
> creation of the Daleks. The Daleks clearly existed in their future so -
> by your argument - they could not have been destroyed in the past.
> Rather takes the dramatic edge out of that classic serial, doesn't it?
>
alter their future development.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>>>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>>>
>>>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>>>
>>>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>>>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>>>
>>> No. Let's call it "The Witch's Familiar" trying to preguess where a
>>> story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
>>> earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find your
>>> association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>>>
>>
>> The premise of Genesis of the Dalkes with the Daleks turning on their
>> creator and making them into their slave like he is now was obtained
>> from around chapters 4 to 6 of Synthetic Men of Mars and Davros was
>> based on Ras Thavas. The Daleks evolution into nothing more than heads
>> with tentacles, their actual appearance and belief that they were the
>> superior being in the universe and their infallibility was derived
>> from the Kaldanes from The Chessmen of Mars.
>
> So you say, but give me leave to doubt
>
Kaldane rearranged is Dalekan and that Ras Thavas rearranged and
phonetically shifted is ThavaRas or Davros and that ERB used the same
technique or rearranging names in Synthetic Men of Mars itself.
have added something more significant than the main protagonists
idiotically prancing around and it would have got people who immediately
switched off or to ITV the moment that the name Davros was mentioned to
keep watching.
>
>>
>>> his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on things
>>> being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect of the
>>> revelation of his name.
>>
>> Which would have meant nothing other than to serious fans. Look at how
>> badly this episode did in the ratings with only 4.58. That's the worst
>> season opener of the new series and one of the lowest ratings ever.
>
> Again I remind you that those people - both those who watched and those
> who didn't - HADN"T SEEN the episode. Judging the episode by the rating
> is nonsensical. What it actually means is that what has gone before, and
> the BBC's publicity, were not enough to get people to watch
The same 4.58 million people did not start watching at the start of the
episode and continue watching until it ended. The 4.58 million is made
up of only about 30 or 40% who did that. The rest who make up the
majority came in at different points during the episode and watched for
different lengths of time. The final figure is an average. It tells you
that a substantial part of the people who had seen part of the episode,
possibly 10 to 12 million (12-18 million being the entire viewing public
at that time), decided it was not worth watching all the way through. If
the story was any good it would have got 8-10 million viewers.
TB
Sep 21, 2015, 1:09:36 AM9/21/15
to
"The Impossible Astronaut": The Doctor is expecting to die in this episode also. He therefore sends invitations to his closest friends to see him out. Why didn't he send anyone his will in that episode?
TB
Sep 21, 2015, 1:10:07 AM9/21/15
to
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:53:35 PM UTC-7, Agamemnon wrote:
Stephen Wilson
Sep 21, 2015, 5:14:21 AM9/21/15
to
"TB" <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:ae54a455-7b00-4ecd...@googlegroups.com...
Stephen Wilson
Sep 21, 2015, 5:19:59 AM9/21/15
to
news:341da6d1-df22-484a...@googlegroups.com...
>.
He didn't have a recording back then. The thing about Davros is that he's a
massive fan of Doctor Who, and he's got a complete set of recordings of the
show dating back to 1963.
massive fan of Doctor Who, and he's got a complete set of recordings of the
show dating back to 1963.
Stephen Wilson
Sep 21, 2015, 5:46:54 AM9/21/15
to
news:b2df35c0-f9f4-43f9...@googlegroups.com...
Because he wasn't expecting to die. He set the whole thing up.
>
>
Agamemnon
Sep 21, 2015, 6:26:21 AM9/21/15
to
recording of the Doctor giving away Dalek history.
Kitty Eden
Sep 21, 2015, 6:39:46 AM9/21/15
to
Bonus stealth pun hidden in the episode-
The Doctor probably found the electric guitar hidden in the music room of the TARDIS or something. So would that make it-
A guiTARDIS?
*crickets chirp*
Never mind.
The Doctor probably found the electric guitar hidden in the music room of the TARDIS or something. So would that make it-
A guiTARDIS?
*crickets chirp*
Never mind.
The Doctor
Sep 21, 2015, 10:01:06 AM9/21/15
to
In article <pPidndRGbc6TyGLI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Ag, the tapes the Doctor destroyed was his interoggation by Davros, audio files.
The Doctor
Sep 21, 2015, 10:02:01 AM9/21/15
to
In article <0c88ce45-dd9a-4fc8...@googlegroups.com>,
>> > Davros has a recording of the 4th Doctor (Genesis of the Daleks) asking=
> if he had the right to exterminate the Daleks, and asking his Companions i=
>f they could kill a child who was destined to become a totally evil adult. =
> Shortly after that recording was made, Davros was "exterminated" by the Da=
>leks (but survived to to some auxiliary force field/stasis field). The bun=
>ker was then sealed for at least 1,000 years. The Daleks then broke out to=
> start their reign of terror. Eventually, they abandoned Skaros. Centurie=
>s later, they came back for Davros to help them beat the Movellians. How i=
>n the world did the recording survive in a ruined bunker for all the time t=
>hat Davros was in stasis?
>>=20
>> Especially when the Doctor was supposed to have destroyed the tapes that=
>=20
> if he had the right to exterminate the Daleks, and asking his Companions i=
>f they could kill a child who was destined to become a totally evil adult. =
> Shortly after that recording was made, Davros was "exterminated" by the Da=
>leks (but survived to to some auxiliary force field/stasis field). The bun=
>ker was then sealed for at least 1,000 years. The Daleks then broke out to=
> start their reign of terror. Eventually, they abandoned Skaros. Centurie=
>s later, they came back for Davros to help them beat the Movellians. How i=
>n the world did the recording survive in a ruined bunker for all the time t=
>hat Davros was in stasis?
>>=20
>> Especially when the Doctor was supposed to have destroyed the tapes that=
>=20
>> Davros recorded in the original story in the first place.
>
>Obviously, the Doctor missed something!
Nope, audio tapes were destroyed.
>
>Obviously, the Doctor missed something!
The Doctor
Sep 21, 2015, 10:08:20 AM9/21/15
to
In article <LTPLx.461191$pF1....@fx41.am4>,
Let it rest TB
TB
Sep 21, 2015, 12:49:38 PM9/21/15
to
TB
Sep 21, 2015, 12:53:14 PM9/21/15
to
Agamemnon
Sep 21, 2015, 2:47:39 PM9/21/15
to
TB
Sep 21, 2015, 5:19:18 PM9/21/15
to
The Doctor
Sep 21, 2015, 5:24:06 PM9/21/15
to
In article <WPWdncqs6qtUzZ3L...@eclipse.net.uk>,
IIRC seing the clip from Episode 6, not the interrogation.
Your Name
Sep 21, 2015, 5:46:04 PM9/21/15
to
Stephen Wilson
Sep 21, 2015, 6:10:50 PM9/21/15
to
"Kitty Eden" <thebigge...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0614d819-2669-40e6...@googlegroups.com...
music based on the show is "trock" - i.e. Time Lord Rock.
Two of the better American bands are:
Legs Nose Robinson (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8dyaN4yW_0)
and Time Crash. And the guitarist from Time Crash that has a custom built
guitar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OUX3RE_3gI
Now THAT's a guiTARDIS!!
Stephen Wilson
Sep 21, 2015, 6:23:23 PM9/21/15
to
news:f2b80d50-16bf-43c7...@googlegroups.com...
Missy can't get Danny. He's dead.
Pudentame
Sep 21, 2015, 7:37:52 PM9/21/15
to
easiest way to frame the Clara leaves The Doctor story.
He doesn't have to come back forever, just long enough for Clara to
collect him & wave goodbye to The Doctor.
Pudentame
Sep 21, 2015, 7:42:51 PM9/21/15
to
That was what really attracted me to Doctor Who in the beginning; the
sly, dry British humor. Even in the Tom Baker years, the sets, props &
special effects were really cheesy - except that the model work was
better than Star Truck. But, it was the humor (or I guess humour) that
really made the show worth watching.
Looks like that's being brought back with Capaldi, and I like it.
Agamemnon
Sep 21, 2015, 7:50:15 PM9/21/15
to
was acting like a fifth rate circus clown and given a script written for
Matt Smith which Smith would have performed better.
Your Name
Sep 21, 2015, 9:41:51 PM9/21/15
to
In article <81510b5k2986e6t5p...@4ax.com>, Pudentame
It would be just as easy would for Clara to die and join Danny for a
"happily ever after" ending with them both in the Nethersphere.
> He doesn't have to come back forever, just long enough for Clara to
> collect him & wave goodbye to The Doctor.
Of course Danny has to come back forever ... how else do they make the
"Clara & Danny Adventure Hour" spin-off show and then bring them back
for the "Doctor Who 75th Anniversary Special"? ;-)
"happily ever after" ending with them both in the Nethersphere.
> He doesn't have to come back forever, just long enough for Clara to
> collect him & wave goodbye to The Doctor.
"Clara & Danny Adventure Hour" spin-off show and then bring them back
for the "Doctor Who 75th Anniversary Special"? ;-)
The Doctor
Sep 22, 2015, 9:57:42 AM9/22/15
to
The Doctor
Sep 22, 2015, 9:58:51 AM9/22/15
to
In article <lYednUNiLr8oCp3L...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Speaking of which, how many 'new' doctors had 'old' doctor
scripts?
scripts?
Stephen Wilson
Sep 22, 2015, 1:05:55 PM9/22/15
to
"Pudentame" <no....@no.where.invalid> wrote in message
news:81510b5k2986e6t5p...@4ax.com...
run back to the Doctor...
Siri Cruz
Sep 22, 2015, 2:57:18 PM9/22/15
to
In article <OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
> was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
In St Mickey's cartoon the brooms multiplied and acted beyond Mickey's will.
Mickey unwittingly started a process that would be uncontrollably destructive.
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a black
> soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial the
> soldiers must have been Thals.
In story we don't know how much other species can vary in appearance. A black
Kaled may be no more signficant than a green eyed Kaled. In reality what in the
US is called EEO applies to hiring actor.
> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
At this point Missy, Clara, and the fish tank have no signficance. Other than
pointing out that Daleks survive by each being put alone into a tank at birth.
Whether all that means anything remains to be seen.
> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
> the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
> destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
> dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>
> So where is this all leading?
And Davros is explaining that Daleks are a creation that became uncontrollably
destructive, and he is asking for compassion. Mayhaps the dying Davros knowing
death is inevitable thinks it would be a mercy to die as an innocent in the mine
field instead of twisting into the deformed, crippled monster he became.
Or not. This whole line and Missy, Clara, and the fish tank might all go
unexplained in the next part.
> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
We saw Karn in the episode. Ooooo-hoooo, witchy woman, ....
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
When is a Kenyan not a Kenyan? When he's a Canadian.
That's People's Commissioner Siri Cruz now. Punch!
Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
> was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
In St Mickey's cartoon the brooms multiplied and acted beyond Mickey's will.
Mickey unwittingly started a process that would be uncontrollably destructive.
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
> 1
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> they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a black
> soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial the
> soldiers must have been Thals.
In story we don't know how much other species can vary in appearance. A black
Kaled may be no more signficant than a green eyed Kaled. In reality what in the
US is called EEO applies to hiring actor.
> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
At this point Missy, Clara, and the fish tank have no signficance. Other than
pointing out that Daleks survive by each being put alone into a tank at birth.
Whether all that means anything remains to be seen.
> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
> the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
> destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
> dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>
> So where is this all leading?
And Davros is explaining that Daleks are a creation that became uncontrollably
destructive, and he is asking for compassion. Mayhaps the dying Davros knowing
death is inevitable thinks it would be a mercy to die as an innocent in the mine
field instead of twisting into the deformed, crippled monster he became.
Or not. This whole line and Missy, Clara, and the fish tank might all go
unexplained in the next part.
> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
We saw Karn in the episode. Ooooo-hoooo, witchy woman, ....
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
When is a Kenyan not a Kenyan? When he's a Canadian.
That's People's Commissioner Siri Cruz now. Punch!
Siri Cruz
Sep 22, 2015, 3:08:04 PM9/22/15
to
In article <1ZPLx.393187$1h.3...@fx25.am4>,
"Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wils...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> He didn't have a recording back then. The thing about Davros is that he's a
> massive fan of Doctor Who, and he's got a complete set of recordings of the
> show dating back to 1963.
And he won't share the missing episodes? That is evil.
> He didn't have a recording back then. The thing about Davros is that he's a
> massive fan of Doctor Who, and he's got a complete set of recordings of the
> show dating back to 1963.
Timothy Bruening
Sep 22, 2015, 3:10:22 PM9/22/15
to
On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 11:57:18 AM UTC-7, Siri Cruz wrote:
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> And Davros is explaining that Daleks are a creation that became uncontrollably
> destructive, and he is asking for compassion. Mayhaps the dying Davros knowing
> death is inevitable thinks it would be a mercy to die as an innocent in the mine
> field instead of twisting into the deformed, crippled monster he became.
>
I suggest that the Doctor hypnotize young Davros into making the Daleks nicer, or reprogram the Daleks himself.
> destructive, and he is asking for compassion. Mayhaps the dying Davros knowing
> death is inevitable thinks it would be a mercy to die as an innocent in the mine
> field instead of twisting into the deformed, crippled monster he became.
>
Siri Cruz
Sep 22, 2015, 3:15:49 PM9/22/15
to
In article <kOidnQtlQbEsZmPI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> The best way to have done this is not to have made the same mistakes as
> The Phantom Menace. There should have been no attempt at childish comedy
> and very little humour. Davros should have been older, maybe 18 and just
> about graduate from university and become an intern at a major
You're assuming you know what part 2 is. A well written episode will tie
together the elements you're complaining about to the main theme.
Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> The best way to have done this is not to have made the same mistakes as
> The Phantom Menace. There should have been no attempt at childish comedy
> and very little humour. Davros should have been older, maybe 18 and just
> about graduate from university and become an intern at a major
You're assuming you know what part 2 is. A well written episode will tie
together the elements you're complaining about to the main theme.
Siri Cruz
Sep 22, 2015, 3:17:16 PM9/22/15
to
In article <LTPLx.461191$pF1....@fx41.am4>,
"Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wils...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "TB" <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> news:ae54a455-7b00-4ecd...@googlegroups.com...
> >Possible new method of bringing back Danny Pink!
> >
> "TB" <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> news:ae54a455-7b00-4ecd...@googlegroups.com...
> >Possible new method of bringing back Danny Pink!
> >
> >1
> >1
> >1
> >1
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> >
> >Assuming that both Missy and Clara survived the Dalek death rays, I suggest
> >that Missy
> >offer to help Clara rescue Danny. If Clara accepted, then Missy and Clara
> >would go to
> >her house (just after Danny sent that Afghan Kid through) to recover the
> >Cyber control
> >device Danny had used to save that Kid. Then repair the Cyber control
> >device, then zip
> >into the Nethersphere to rescue Danny and anyone else Clara might want to
> >save.
>
> Danny won't be coming back. He's dead.
Dammit, Jim, I'm a timelord, not a doctor.
> >1
> >
> >Assuming that both Missy and Clara survived the Dalek death rays, I suggest
> >that Missy
> >offer to help Clara rescue Danny. If Clara accepted, then Missy and Clara
> >would go to
> >her house (just after Danny sent that Afghan Kid through) to recover the
> >Cyber control
> >device Danny had used to save that Kid. Then repair the Cyber control
> >device, then zip
> >into the Nethersphere to rescue Danny and anyone else Clara might want to
> >save.
>
> Danny won't be coming back. He's dead.
Timothy Bruening
Sep 22, 2015, 3:29:01 PM9/22/15
to
Agamemnon
Sep 22, 2015, 4:56:08 PM9/22/15
to
On 22/09/2015 19:57, Siri Cruz wrote:
> In article <OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
>> was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>
> In St Mickey's cartoon the brooms multiplied and acted beyond Mickey's will.
> Mickey unwittingly started a process that would be uncontrollably destructive.
So did Ras Thavas in Synthetic Men of Mars.
> In article <OO2dnVbRHI69dWDI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
>> was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>
> In St Mickey's cartoon the brooms multiplied and acted beyond Mickey's will.
> Mickey unwittingly started a process that would be uncontrollably destructive.
Doctor and his companions were not Kaleds so must be Thals (because they
didn't believe in alien life). A black Kaled would totally undermine the
whole premise of that entire story.
>
>> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
>> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
>
> At this point Missy, Clara, and the fish tank have no signficance. Other than
> pointing out that Daleks survive by each being put alone into a tank at birth.
> Whether all that means anything remains to be seen.
>
>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
>> the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
>> destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
>> dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>
>> So where is this all leading?
>
> And Davros is explaining that Daleks are a creation that became uncontrollably
> destructive, and he is asking for compassion. Mayhaps the dying Davros knowing
> death is inevitable thinks it would be a mercy to die as an innocent in the mine
> field instead of twisting into the deformed, crippled monster he became.
>
> Or not. This whole line and Missy, Clara, and the fish tank might all go
> unexplained in the next part.
cruel and wants to start over again so that he can make them more deadly
by giving them compassion. That way they won't get into any more wars
with themselves and concentrate on exterminating all other life in the
universe. And then of course the question is what do the do when they've
conquered it all. Are they ever going to go back into human form.
>
>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>
> We saw Karn in the episode. Ooooo-hoooo, witchy woman, ....
>
Men of Mars as well. Dalek souffle girl being Tor-Dur-Bar.
~consul
Sep 22, 2015, 4:56:30 PM9/22/15
to
On 9/19/2015 7:22 PM, Mike Hall wrote:
> On 19/09/2015 23:56, Agamemnon wrote:
>> The Magician's Apprentice
>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>> Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs both come to mind.
>>
>> SPOILERS
>>
>> Do now cross this point if you've not watched episode 1 or read Edgar
>> Rice Burroughs Barsoom series.
>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
And likewise, the Doctor is the Magician and Clara is the Apprentice.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here,
at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
> On 19/09/2015 23:56, Agamemnon wrote:
>> The Magician's Apprentice
>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom
>> sticks
>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
>> was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>> As to what the story is actually based on, The Master Mind of Mars and
>> sticks
>> carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
>> was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>> Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs both come to mind.
>>
>> SPOILERS
>>
>> Do now cross this point if you've not watched episode 1 or read Edgar
>> Rice Burroughs Barsoom series.
>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
> Missy is the witch. Clara is the familliar.
>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
And likewise, the Doctor is the Magician and Clara is the Apprentice.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here,
at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
~consul
Sep 22, 2015, 5:02:33 PM9/22/15
to
On 9/20/2015 11:35 AM, TB wrote:
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> When Davros was a child and standing in a "hand mine" field, the Doctor threw him his sonic screwdriver. Davros still had it centuries or millenia later. Davros has appeared in several prior episodes. Why didn't we ever see him use that sonic screwdriver before?
What I didn't like was the heavy-handed way he had the screwdriver for
the far future to show. The Doctor says it is used so he can talk to
him, but why would he have to use it from that end? Why not use it
from his end?
Agamemnon
Sep 22, 2015, 5:05:48 PM9/22/15
to
On 22/09/2015 14:58, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <lYednUNiLr8oCp3L...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> On 22/09/2015 00:42, Pudentame wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 03:39:44 -0700 (PDT), Kitty Eden
>>> <thebigge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bonus stealth pun hidden in the episode-
>>>> The Doctor probably found the electric guitar hidden in the music room of the TARDIS or something. So would that make it-
>>>> A guiTARDIS?
>>>>
>>>> *crickets chirp*
>>>>
>>>> Never mind.
>>>
>>> Well, it fits in well with the other stupid puns in the episode.
>>>
>>> That was what really attracted me to Doctor Who in the beginning; the
>>> sly, dry British humor. Even in the Tom Baker years, the sets, props &
>>> special effects were really cheesy - except that the model work was
>>> better than Star Truck. But, it was the humor (or I guess humour) that
>>> really made the show worth watching.
>>>
>>> Looks like that's being brought back with Capaldi, and I like it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Humour? That's not humour. Tom Baker was sophisticated. Peter Capaldi
>> was acting like a fifth rate circus clown and given a script written for
>> Matt Smith which Smith would have performed better.
>>
>>
>
> Speaking of which, how many 'new' doctors had 'old' doctor
> scripts?
>
Robot was written for Jon Pertwee
> In article <lYednUNiLr8oCp3L...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> On 22/09/2015 00:42, Pudentame wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 03:39:44 -0700 (PDT), Kitty Eden
>>> <thebigge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bonus stealth pun hidden in the episode-
>>>> The Doctor probably found the electric guitar hidden in the music room of the TARDIS or something. So would that make it-
>>>> A guiTARDIS?
>>>>
>>>> *crickets chirp*
>>>>
>>>> Never mind.
>>>
>>> Well, it fits in well with the other stupid puns in the episode.
>>>
>>> That was what really attracted me to Doctor Who in the beginning; the
>>> sly, dry British humor. Even in the Tom Baker years, the sets, props &
>>> special effects were really cheesy - except that the model work was
>>> better than Star Truck. But, it was the humor (or I guess humour) that
>>> really made the show worth watching.
>>>
>>> Looks like that's being brought back with Capaldi, and I like it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Humour? That's not humour. Tom Baker was sophisticated. Peter Capaldi
>> was acting like a fifth rate circus clown and given a script written for
>> Matt Smith which Smith would have performed better.
>>
>>
>
> Speaking of which, how many 'new' doctors had 'old' doctor
> scripts?
>
Agamemnon
Sep 22, 2015, 5:09:37 PM9/22/15
to
On 22/09/2015 20:15, Siri Cruz wrote:
> In article <kOidnQtlQbEsZmPI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>> The best way to have done this is not to have made the same mistakes as
>> The Phantom Menace. There should have been no attempt at childish comedy
>> and very little humour. Davros should have been older, maybe 18 and just
>> about graduate from university and become an intern at a major
>
> You're assuming you know what part 2 is. A well written episode will tie
> together the elements you're complaining about to the main theme.
>
What if it was Davros who created and planted the hand mines as part of
> In article <kOidnQtlQbEsZmPI...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>> The best way to have done this is not to have made the same mistakes as
>> The Phantom Menace. There should have been no attempt at childish comedy
>> and very little humour. Davros should have been older, maybe 18 and just
>> about graduate from university and become an intern at a major
>
> You're assuming you know what part 2 is. A well written episode will tie
> together the elements you're complaining about to the main theme.
>
his school science project?
Agamemnon
Sep 22, 2015, 5:11:40 PM9/22/15
to
Stephen Wilson
Sep 22, 2015, 6:25:34 PM9/22/15
to
"Siri Cruz" <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:chine.bleu-47710...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu...
Andrew M
Sep 22, 2015, 7:22:45 PM9/22/15
to
On 2015-09-21 01:27:58 +0000, Agamemnon said:
> On 21/09/2015 01:09, Andrew M wrote:
>> On 2015-09-20 23:43:42 +0000, Agamemnon said:
>>
>>> On 20/09/2015 15:58, Andrew M wrote:
>>>>> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
>>>>> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
>>>>> the worst titles in the series ever.
>>>>> The Master Mind of Skaro
>>>>
>>>> The Magician is the Doctor - the axe-wielding barbarian-cum-dalek uses
>>>> that term to describe him. It seems that the Doctor's decision not to
>>>> save the boy Davros taught him a lesson in callousness making Davros the
>>>
>>> And like the war didn't? And the Doctor hasn't actually chosen not to
>>> save him yet otherwise I might have come to the came conclusion.
>>
>> The fact that Davros still had the sonic screwdriver is a fair lead
>> there. That the Doctor muses on the question "Who made Davros?" is
>> another. That The Doctor had gone when the smoke cleared... I could go on
>>
>
> He came back with a Dalek weapon.
In the teaser for the next episode. Which, as you have already stated,
suggests that he attempts to kill Davros. Now I'm sure that's not the
case, but I'm not sure we should read any more into this
>
>>>
>>>> Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is simply
>>>> a familiar title
>>>>
>>>
>>> It lost the episodes 2-4 million in the ratings since it didn't
>>> describe what was in the box.
>>
>> That's a nonsensical statement. Those ratings are those that watched the
>> show at time of airing. Those who didn't tune in couldn't have known
>> what the story did, or did not involve
>
> Of course they did. They could have either continued watching or left.
> It's seems that around 2-4 million of them left on average during the
> whole 50 minutes.
You seem to be assuming that those 2 - 4 million people started
watching. I'm not sure where you get your information from on that.
Were they watching BBC1 up to the point where Doctor Who came on?
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
>>>>> mistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
>>>>> screwdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the
>>>>> Dark Lord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
>>>>> material for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of
>>>>> Mars, The Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
>>>>> Burroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
>>>>> Mastermind of Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>> The so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try
>>>>> to pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors
>>>>> from The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume
>>>>> that they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a
>>>>> the middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not
>>>>> made any difference to the actual plot.
>>>>
>>>> The "prancing around" you refer to exists to create light and shade
>>>> within what would otherwise be a somewhat dreich plot. Even Shakespeare
>>>> included fools in his tragedies
>>>
>>> Shakespeare did not have fools prancing around playing rock guitars,
>>> making idiotic jokes about tanks or zapping innocent people to death
>>> will nilly. Those scenes especially the Doctors were a badly written
>>> comedy fest that ruined the entire episode.
>>
>> No. He had them playing lutes and singing songs and telling idiotic
>> jokes about the ability of men to have sex when they are drunk. That you
>
> Much better than the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar and
> cracking idiotic jokes about tanks they couldn't possible understand.
>
>
>> didn't like the scene is fair enough - it didn't entirely wow me either:
>> I thought it too long. I did not, though, think it "ruined the episode"
>>
>
> It along with the Missy stuff wasted 30 minutes of the episode which
> could have been more wisely spent on exposition of the main theme. It
> ruined what could have been a good story with idiotic fooling around
> instead.
So what was the main theme? That The Doctor's decision not to save
Davros had in fact created the monster that Davros turned out to be?
Sure, there may be a twist to that, but in the context of of this
episode I really don't think that theme needed any more 'exposition'.
To some degree I take your point, but not for the same reasons. I think
that having both Missy and Davros in a single story risks misplacing
the focus of the story, but I think that has been avoided really quite
skilfully
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along
>>>>> with the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the
>>>>> TARDIS destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells
>>>>> him he's dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>>>>
>>>>> So where is this all leading?
>>>>>
>>>>> The episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
>>>>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>>>>
>>>>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>>>>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>>>>
>>>> "Today's standards" have nothing to do with it. Doctor Who's
>>>> cliffhangers have often involved misdirection. A cliffhanger that, for
>>>> example, really did see the Doctor obliterated might be a little hard to
>>>> follow up
>>>
>>> No. Classic Doctor Who rarely involved misdirection on that obvious
>>> idiotic level. Davros is obviously still alive in the future therefore
>>> he can't have died in the past.
>>
>> Which would make the whole of "Genesis Of The Daleks" nonsense, wouldn't
>> it? The Timelords sent The Doctor back into the past to prevent the
>> creation of the Daleks. The Daleks clearly existed in their future so -
>> by your argument - they could not have been destroyed in the past.
>> Rather takes the dramatic edge out of that classic serial, doesn't it?
>>
>
> The Time Lords sent the Doctor back to either prevent their creation or
> alter their future development.
That doesn't negate the point.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>>>>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>>> story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
>>>> earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find your
>>>> association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>>>>
>>>
>>> The premise of Genesis of the Dalkes with the Daleks turning on their
>>> creator and making them into their slave like he is now was obtained
>>> from around chapters 4 to 6 of Synthetic Men of Mars and Davros was
>>> based on Ras Thavas. The Daleks evolution into nothing more than heads
>>> with tentacles, their actual appearance and belief that they were the
>>> superior being in the universe and their infallibility was derived
>>> from the Kaldanes from The Chessmen of Mars.
>>
>> So you say, but give me leave to doubt
>>
>
> You can doubt all you like but that isn't going to change the fact that
> Kaldane rearranged is Dalekan and that Ras Thavas rearranged and
> phonetically shifted is ThavaRas or Davros and that ERB used the same
> technique or rearranging names in Synthetic Men of Mars itself.
Oh come on! Really? Do you really think that Moffatt sought out a
rather obscure pulp sci-fi novel to base his story on because its
protagonists had names that were anagrams of 'Dalek' (with an extra
syllable) and 'Davros' (not at all). Seriously? If a crossword setter
went for "rearranged and phonetically shifted" I'd want my money back.
And no - there is no amount of rearranging and phonetic shifting that
can turn Ras Thavas into Davros. Too many sibilants.
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
>>>>> liberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
>>>>> of his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the
>>>>> same way Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of
>>>>> The Mastermind of Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use
>>>>> them to take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so
>>>>> that he could carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same
>>>>> reason Ras Thavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before
>>>>> his experiment went out of control and he become their servant rather
>>>>> than their master.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as
>>>>> Ras Thavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
>>>>> get the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
>>>>> the Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
>>>>> return to humanoid form.
>>>>
>>>> I don't expect any of that to happen, but it's an interesting storyline
>>>> in its own right
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally the score
>>>>>
>>>>> 10/10 for entertainment.
>>>>>
>>>>> 72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
>>>>> pointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the
>>>>> middle ages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just
>>>>> for laughs and other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it
>>>>> in the first place only to kill her off?
>>>>
>>>> Guessing - not really dead?
>>>>
>>>>> What additional purpose does she serve? It would have been better to
>>>>> have replaced all that with something more relevant to the themes
>>>>> raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the Daleks and concentrated
>>>>> on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended up in the middle of a
>>>>> battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of everything out of
>>>>> sequence is getting really annoying.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure it makes any difference why and how the boy Davros wound up
>>>> in the middle of a battlefield. The set-up would have to have preceded
>>>
>>> Of course it does. I would explain if he was a refugee or a child
>>> soldier and therefore his motivation.
>>
>> But that misses my point. The storyteller is telling you that this
>> encounter with The Doctor (may have) shaped his future development. The
>> storyteller is telling you the The Doctor (it seems) believes this may
>> have been the case. Insisting that the storyteller should have brought
>> in a whole extra set of threads to the narrative that might have made
>> this more complex is entirely a reasonable point for a novel, but in a
>> 45-minute television story I'm not sure it would have added anything
>> significant
>
> Going by the sharp drop in the ratings it's is evident that it would
> have added something more significant than the main protagonists
> idiotically prancing around and it would have got people who
> immediately switched off or to ITV the moment that the name Davros was
> mentioned to keep watching.
When did the ratings drop? Before the show started or at the point you
are unhappy about? When, exactly, did people switch away?
>
>>
>>>
>>>> his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on things
>>>> being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect of the
>>>> revelation of his name.
>>>
>>> Which would have meant nothing other than to serious fans. Look at how
>>> badly this episode did in the ratings with only 4.58. That's the worst
>>> season opener of the new series and one of the lowest ratings ever.
>>
>> Again I remind you that those people - both those who watched and those
>> who didn't - HADN"T SEEN the episode. Judging the episode by the rating
>> is nonsensical. What it actually means is that what has gone before, and
>> the BBC's publicity, were not enough to get people to watch
>
> Do you understand statistics?
>
> The same 4.58 million people did not start watching at the start of the
> episode and continue watching until it ended. The 4.58 million is made
> up of only about 30 or 40% who did that. The rest who make up the
> majority came in at different points during the episode and watched for
> different lengths of time. The final figure is an average. It tells you
> that a substantial part of the people who had seen part of the episode,
> possibly 10 to 12 million (12-18 million being the entire viewing
> public at that time), decided it was not worth watching all the way
> through. If the story was any good it would have got 8-10 million
> viewers.
And you know that how, exactly? How do you measure how long people
watched for? I understand averages pretty well. I know that you can't
derive a maximum number (your 10-12 million) from the average without
some data on how long, on average, people watched for or without some
kind of information on how many people actually tuned in for any of the
episode. I would love to know, exactly, how you get your percentage
points of 30% or 40%. Key to the argument is, how do you know that
10-12 million people saw some of the episode?
> On 21/09/2015 01:09, Andrew M wrote:
>> On 2015-09-20 23:43:42 +0000, Agamemnon said:
>>
>>> On 20/09/2015 15:58, Andrew M wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-19 22:56:28 +0000, Agamemnon said:
>>>>
>>>>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>>>>
>>>>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>>>>>
>>>>> After the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
>>>>
>>>>> The Magician's Apprentice
>>>>>
>>>>> New title sequence... there wasn't one!
>>>>>
>>>>> pre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
>>>>> going to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
>>>>> the worst titles in the series ever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>>>>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>>>>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom
>>>>> sticks carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt
>>>>> Suite? Where was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Comment dropped to beneath spoiler space
>>>>> Why was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
>>>>> Magician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
>>>>> original story the title came from? Where were the animated broom
>>>>> sticks carrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt
>>>>> Suite? Where was Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Magician is the Doctor - the axe-wielding barbarian-cum-dalek uses
>>>> that term to describe him. It seems that the Doctor's decision not to
>>>> save the boy Davros taught him a lesson in callousness making Davros the
>>>
>>> And like the war didn't? And the Doctor hasn't actually chosen not to
>>> save him yet otherwise I might have come to the came conclusion.
>>
>> The fact that Davros still had the sonic screwdriver is a fair lead
>> there. That the Doctor muses on the question "Who made Davros?" is
>> another. That The Doctor had gone when the smoke cleared... I could go on
>>
>
> He came back with a Dalek weapon.
In the teaser for the next episode. Which, as you have already stated,
suggests that he attempts to kill Davros. Now I'm sure that's not the
case, but I'm not sure we should read any more into this
>
>>>
>>>> Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is simply
>>>> a familiar title
>>>>
>>>
>>> It lost the episodes 2-4 million in the ratings since it didn't
>>> describe what was in the box.
>>
>> That's a nonsensical statement. Those ratings are those that watched the
>> show at time of airing. Those who didn't tune in couldn't have known
>> what the story did, or did not involve
>
> Of course they did. They could have either continued watching or left.
> It's seems that around 2-4 million of them left on average during the
> whole 50 minutes.
You seem to be assuming that those 2 - 4 million people started
watching. I'm not sure where you get your information from on that.
Were they watching BBC1 up to the point where Doctor Who came on?
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
>>>>> mistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
>>>>> screwdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the
>>>>> Dark Lord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
>>>>> material for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of
>>>>> Mars, The Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
>>>>> Burroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
>>>>> Mastermind of Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>> The so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try
>>>>> to pull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors
>>>>> from The Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume
>>>>> that they were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a
>>>>> black soldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be
>>>>> multiracial the soldiers must have been Thals.
>>>>>
>>>>> multiracial the soldiers must have been Thals.
>>>>>
>>>>> After the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
>>>>> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing
>>>>> around with Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in
>>>>> viewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing
>>>>> the middle ages which could have been completely edited out and not
>>>>> made any difference to the actual plot.
>>>>
>>>> The "prancing around" you refer to exists to create light and shade
>>>> within what would otherwise be a somewhat dreich plot. Even Shakespeare
>>>> included fools in his tragedies
>>>
>>> Shakespeare did not have fools prancing around playing rock guitars,
>>> making idiotic jokes about tanks or zapping innocent people to death
>>> will nilly. Those scenes especially the Doctors were a badly written
>>> comedy fest that ruined the entire episode.
>>
>> No. He had them playing lutes and singing songs and telling idiotic
>> jokes about the ability of men to have sex when they are drunk. That you
>
> Much better than the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar and
> cracking idiotic jokes about tanks they couldn't possible understand.
>
>
>> didn't like the scene is fair enough - it didn't entirely wow me either:
>> I thought it too long. I did not, though, think it "ruined the episode"
>>
>
> It along with the Missy stuff wasted 30 minutes of the episode which
> could have been more wisely spent on exposition of the main theme. It
> ruined what could have been a good story with idiotic fooling around
> instead.
So what was the main theme? That The Doctor's decision not to save
Davros had in fact created the monster that Davros turned out to be?
Sure, there may be a twist to that, but in the context of of this
episode I really don't think that theme needed any more 'exposition'.
To some degree I take your point, but not for the same reasons. I think
that having both Missy and Davros in a single story risks misplacing
the focus of the story, but I think that has been avoided really quite
skilfully
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along
>>>>> with the TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the
>>>>> TARDIS destroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells
>>>>> him he's dying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
>>>>>
>>>>> So where is this all leading?
>>>>>
>>>>> exterminate the boy Davros.
>>>>>
>>>>> Going by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
>>>>> the one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
>>>>
>>>> "Today's standards" have nothing to do with it. Doctor Who's
>>>> cliffhangers have often involved misdirection. A cliffhanger that, for
>>>> example, really did see the Doctor obliterated might be a little hard to
>>>> follow up
>>>
>>> No. Classic Doctor Who rarely involved misdirection on that obvious
>>> idiotic level. Davros is obviously still alive in the future therefore
>>> he can't have died in the past.
>>
>> Which would make the whole of "Genesis Of The Daleks" nonsense, wouldn't
>> it? The Timelords sent The Doctor back into the past to prevent the
>> creation of the Daleks. The Daleks clearly existed in their future so -
>> by your argument - they could not have been destroyed in the past.
>> Rather takes the dramatic edge out of that classic serial, doesn't it?
>>
>
> The Time Lords sent the Doctor back to either prevent their creation or
> alter their future development.
That doesn't negate the point.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>>>>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>>>>
>>>>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>>>>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>>>>
>>>> No. Let's call it "The Witch's Familiar" trying to preguess where a
>>>>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>>>>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>>>>
>>>> story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
>>>> earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find your
>>>> association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>>>>
>>>
>>> The premise of Genesis of the Dalkes with the Daleks turning on their
>>> creator and making them into their slave like he is now was obtained
>>> from around chapters 4 to 6 of Synthetic Men of Mars and Davros was
>>> based on Ras Thavas. The Daleks evolution into nothing more than heads
>>> with tentacles, their actual appearance and belief that they were the
>>> superior being in the universe and their infallibility was derived
>>> from the Kaldanes from The Chessmen of Mars.
>>
>> So you say, but give me leave to doubt
>>
>
> You can doubt all you like but that isn't going to change the fact that
> Kaldane rearranged is Dalekan and that Ras Thavas rearranged and
> phonetically shifted is ThavaRas or Davros and that ERB used the same
> technique or rearranging names in Synthetic Men of Mars itself.
Oh come on! Really? Do you really think that Moffatt sought out a
rather obscure pulp sci-fi novel to base his story on because its
protagonists had names that were anagrams of 'Dalek' (with an extra
syllable) and 'Davros' (not at all). Seriously? If a crossword setter
went for "rearranged and phonetically shifted" I'd want my money back.
And no - there is no amount of rearranging and phonetic shifting that
can turn Ras Thavas into Davros. Too many sibilants.
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
>>>>> liberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
>>>>> of his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the
>>>>> same way Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of
>>>>> The Mastermind of Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use
>>>>> them to take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so
>>>>> that he could carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same
>>>>> reason Ras Thavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before
>>>>> his experiment went out of control and he become their servant rather
>>>>> than their master.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as
>>>>> Ras Thavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
>>>>> get the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
>>>>> the Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
>>>>> return to humanoid form.
>>>>
>>>> I don't expect any of that to happen, but it's an interesting storyline
>>>> in its own right
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally the score
>>>>>
>>>>> 10/10 for entertainment.
>>>>>
>>>>> 72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
>>>>> pointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the
>>>>> middle ages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just
>>>>> for laughs and other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it
>>>>> in the first place only to kill her off?
>>>>
>>>> Guessing - not really dead?
>>>>
>>>>> What additional purpose does she serve? It would have been better to
>>>>> have replaced all that with something more relevant to the themes
>>>>> raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the Daleks and concentrated
>>>>> on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended up in the middle of a
>>>>> battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of everything out of
>>>>> sequence is getting really annoying.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure it makes any difference why and how the boy Davros wound up
>>>> in the middle of a battlefield. The set-up would have to have preceded
>>>
>>> Of course it does. I would explain if he was a refugee or a child
>>> soldier and therefore his motivation.
>>
>> But that misses my point. The storyteller is telling you that this
>> encounter with The Doctor (may have) shaped his future development. The
>> storyteller is telling you the The Doctor (it seems) believes this may
>> have been the case. Insisting that the storyteller should have brought
>> in a whole extra set of threads to the narrative that might have made
>> this more complex is entirely a reasonable point for a novel, but in a
>> 45-minute television story I'm not sure it would have added anything
>> significant
>
> Going by the sharp drop in the ratings it's is evident that it would
> have added something more significant than the main protagonists
> idiotically prancing around and it would have got people who
> immediately switched off or to ITV the moment that the name Davros was
> mentioned to keep watching.
When did the ratings drop? Before the show started or at the point you
are unhappy about? When, exactly, did people switch away?
>
>>
>>>
>>>> his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on things
>>>> being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect of the
>>>> revelation of his name.
>>>
>>> Which would have meant nothing other than to serious fans. Look at how
>>> badly this episode did in the ratings with only 4.58. That's the worst
>>> season opener of the new series and one of the lowest ratings ever.
>>
>> Again I remind you that those people - both those who watched and those
>> who didn't - HADN"T SEEN the episode. Judging the episode by the rating
>> is nonsensical. What it actually means is that what has gone before, and
>> the BBC's publicity, were not enough to get people to watch
>
> Do you understand statistics?
>
> The same 4.58 million people did not start watching at the start of the
> episode and continue watching until it ended. The 4.58 million is made
> up of only about 30 or 40% who did that. The rest who make up the
> majority came in at different points during the episode and watched for
> different lengths of time. The final figure is an average. It tells you
> that a substantial part of the people who had seen part of the episode,
> possibly 10 to 12 million (12-18 million being the entire viewing
> public at that time), decided it was not worth watching all the way
> through. If the story was any good it would have got 8-10 million
> viewers.
And you know that how, exactly? How do you measure how long people
watched for? I understand averages pretty well. I know that you can't
derive a maximum number (your 10-12 million) from the average without
some data on how long, on average, people watched for or without some
kind of information on how many people actually tuned in for any of the
episode. I would love to know, exactly, how you get your percentage
points of 30% or 40%. Key to the argument is, how do you know that
10-12 million people saw some of the episode?
Agamemnon
Sep 22, 2015, 8:47:30 PM9/22/15
to
it. Maybe it's that Thals who actually created them first. Thaleks.
>
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Apprentice. The reference is not to the traditional story, it is
>>>>> simply
>>>>> a familiar title
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It lost the episodes 2-4 million in the ratings since it didn't
>>>> describe what was in the box.
>>>
>>> That's a nonsensical statement. Those ratings are those that watched the
>>> show at time of airing. Those who didn't tune in couldn't have known
>>> what the story did, or did not involve
>>
>> Of course they did. They could have either continued watching or left.
>> It's seems that around 2-4 million of them left on average during the
>> whole 50 minutes.
>
>
> You seem to be assuming that those 2 - 4 million people started
> watching. I'm not sure where you get your information from on that. Were
> they watching BBC1 up to the point where Doctor Who came on?
>
towards the viewing figures did not watch the episode from start to finish.
will turn out evil.
> Sure, there may be a twist to that, but in the context of of this
> episode I really don't think that theme needed any more 'exposition'. To
complete drivel.
> some degree I take your point, but not for the same reasons. I think
> that having both Missy and Davros in a single story risks misplacing the
> focus of the story, but I think that has been avoided really quite
> skilfully
part 1 all I see is 30 minutes wasted which could have been used to set
everything up with boy Davros
knowledge he has of the future. The Time Lords were sending him on a
fools errand. More like intelligence gathering.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
>>>>>> instead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
>>>>>> rename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
>>>>>
>>>>> No. Let's call it "The Witch's Familiar" trying to preguess where a
>>>>> story is heading solely on the basis of perceived relationships with
>>>>> earlier works is rarely fruitful, and I'm not at all I sure I find
>>>>> your
>>>>> association of this story with Burroughs's work entirely persuasive
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The premise of Genesis of the Dalkes with the Daleks turning on their
>>>> creator and making them into their slave like he is now was obtained
>>>> from around chapters 4 to 6 of Synthetic Men of Mars and Davros was
>>>> based on Ras Thavas. The Daleks evolution into nothing more than heads
>>>> with tentacles, their actual appearance and belief that they were the
>>>> superior being in the universe and their infallibility was derived
>>>> from the Kaldanes from The Chessmen of Mars.
>>>
>>> So you say, but give me leave to doubt
>>>
>>
>> You can doubt all you like but that isn't going to change the fact
>> that Kaldane rearranged is Dalekan and that Ras Thavas rearranged and
>> phonetically shifted is ThavaRas or Davros and that ERB used the same
>> technique or rearranging names in Synthetic Men of Mars itself.
>
> Oh come on! Really? Do you really think that Moffatt sought out a rather
philosophy, society and underground cities are based on the Kaldanes
from The Chessmen of Mars along with the actual Dalek creatures and
their travel machines are based on Rykors mixed with a few other ideas
about similar machinery from A Fighting Man of Mars and Swords of Mars.
The Dalek-Thal war is based on the war between Kondalek and Mardonal in
E E Smith's, Skylark of Space, as is the TARDIS interior used by RTD.
The appearance of Davros is based on Ras Thavas from The Master Mind of
Mars. The plot of Genesis of the Daleks or the Daleks rebelling against
their creator and later enslaving him comes from chapters 4-6 or there
abouts of Synthetic Men of Mars. Moffat's rationale for Assylum of the
Daleks was ripped of from the following chapters of Synthetic Men of
Mars and rationale of The Magician's Apprentice and boy Davros is ripped
off directly from The Moon Maid.
> obscure pulp sci-fi novel to base his story on because its protagonists
Barsoom series. Not only did it inspire Terry Nation to invent the
Daleks but it also gave George Lucas the Jedi and the Sith along with
Han Solo and Princess Leia.
Ray Bradbury called Edgar Rice Burrows the most influential writer in
history and cited the Barsoom series as one of his major influences.
> had names that were anagrams of 'Dalek' (with an extra syllable) and
> 'Davros' (not at all). Seriously? If a crossword setter went for
> "rearranged and phonetically shifted" I'd want my money back. And no -
exactly the same device in his own book where one of the characters
renamed themselves by rearranging part of the name of another. I'm not
going to give the entire plot away.
> there is no amount of rearranging and phonetic shifting that can turn
> Ras Thavas into Davros. Too many sibilants.
to D)
Burroughs also uses the device of consonantally shifting the names of
characters (and place names) in The Moon Maid and The Moon Men.
not keep watching. That is evident from the fall in the ratings.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> his encounter with the Doctor - especially as you are keen on things
>>>>> being 'in sequence' which would, I think have dulled the effect of the
>>>>> revelation of his name.
>>>>
>>>> Which would have meant nothing other than to serious fans. Look at how
>>>> badly this episode did in the ratings with only 4.58. That's the worst
>>>> season opener of the new series and one of the lowest ratings ever.
>>>
>>> Again I remind you that those people - both those who watched and those
>>> who didn't - HADN"T SEEN the episode. Judging the episode by the rating
>>> is nonsensical. What it actually means is that what has gone before, and
>>> the BBC's publicity, were not enough to get people to watch
>>
>> Do you understand statistics?
>>
>> The same 4.58 million people did not start watching at the start of
>> the episode and continue watching until it ended. The 4.58 million is
>> made up of only about 30 or 40% who did that. The rest who make up the
>> majority came in at different points during the episode and watched
>> for different lengths of time. The final figure is an average. It
>> tells you that a substantial part of the people who had seen part of
>> the episode, possibly 10 to 12 million (12-18 million being the entire
>> viewing public at that time), decided it was not worth watching all
>> the way through. If the story was any good it would have got 8-10
>> million viewers.
>
> And you know that how, exactly? How do you measure how long people
> watched for? I understand averages pretty well. I know that you can't
> derive a maximum number (your 10-12 million) from the average without
> some data on how long, on average, people watched for or without some
> kind of information on how many people actually tuned in for any of the
> episode.
derive it from that.
>I would love to know, exactly, how you get your percentage
> points of 30% or 40%. Key to the argument is, how do you know that 10-12
> million people saw some of the episode?
Your Name
Sep 22, 2015, 9:30:39 PM9/22/15
to
In article <mtsfhj$g9b$2...@dont-email.me>, ~consul
screwdriver to young Davros so that the Doctor could whisper and the
screwdriver would pick it up (like a wireless speaker) for Davros to
hear it but not alert eh hand mines to where the Doctor was.
<con...@dolphinsPLEASEdelAWAY-cove.DELcom> wrote:
> On 9/20/2015 11:35 AM, TB wrote:
> >
> > When Davros was a child and standing in a "hand mine" field, the Doctor
> > threw him his sonic screwdriver. Davros still had it centuries or millenia
> > later. Davros has appeared in several prior episodes. Why didn't we ever
> > see him use that sonic screwdriver before?
>
> What I didn't like was the heavy-handed way he had the screwdriver for
> the far future to show. The Doctor says it is used so he can talk to
> him, but why would he have to use it from that end? Why not use it
> from his end?
I'm not quite sure where you mean, but he possibly threw the
> On 9/20/2015 11:35 AM, TB wrote:
> >
> > When Davros was a child and standing in a "hand mine" field, the Doctor
> > threw him his sonic screwdriver. Davros still had it centuries or millenia
> > later. Davros has appeared in several prior episodes. Why didn't we ever
> > see him use that sonic screwdriver before?
>
> What I didn't like was the heavy-handed way he had the screwdriver for
> the far future to show. The Doctor says it is used so he can talk to
> him, but why would he have to use it from that end? Why not use it
> from his end?
screwdriver to young Davros so that the Doctor could whisper and the
screwdriver would pick it up (like a wireless speaker) for Davros to
hear it but not alert eh hand mines to where the Doctor was.
Agamemnon
Sep 22, 2015, 9:44:01 PM9/22/15
to
completely useless at seeing the Doctor but they can hear him, with what?
Pudentame
Sep 23, 2015, 12:52:32 PM9/23/15
to
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:06:46 +0100, "Stephen Wilson"
Ok, here's a new spin on Clara leaving I just ran across:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-09-19/doctor-who-does-the-beatles--but-does-this-picture-prove-clara-oswald-will-die
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-09-19/doctor-who-does-the-beatles--but-does-this-picture-prove-clara-oswald-will-die
Stephen Wilson
Sep 23, 2015, 2:01:53 PM9/23/15
to
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:17-dnYKsHvJDnp_L...@eclipse.net.uk...
Siri Cruz
Sep 23, 2015, 4:15:08 PM9/23/15
to
In article <eOBMx.410072$G13.3...@fx14.am4>,
They can the density of air.
¡Gölök Z.L.F Buday AKA The Black Jester #theblackjester
Sep 24, 2015, 11:31:06 PM9/24/15
to
Repackaging Horde from Savage Dragon into a Snake Man from Star Wars.
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 23:56:28 +0100, in rec.arts.drwho Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
ĄThe Magician's Apprentice
Ą
ĄNew title sequence... there wasn't one!
Ą
ĄAfter the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
Ąpre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
Ągoing to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
Ąthe worst titles in the series ever.
Ą
ĄWhy was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
ĄMagician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
Ąoriginal story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
Ącarrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
Ąwas Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
Ą
ĄAs to what the story is actually based on, The Master Mind of Mars and
ĄSynthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs both come to mind.
Ą
ĄSPOILERS
Ą
ĄDo now cross this point if you've not watched episode 1 or read Edgar
ĄRice Burroughs Barsoom series.
Ą
Ą1
Ą2
Ą3
Ą4
Ą5
Ą6
Ą7
Ą8
Ą9
Ą0
Ą1
Ą2
Ą3
Ą4
Ą5
Ą6
Ą7
Ą8
Ą9
Ą0
Ą1
Ą2
Ą3
Ą4
Ą5
Ą6
Ą7
Ą8
Ą9
Ą0
Ą
ĄThe Master Mind of Skaro
Ą
ĄSo the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
Ąmistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
Ąscrewdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the Dark
ĄLord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
Ą
ĄStephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
Ąmaterial for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of Mars,
ĄThe Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
ĄBurroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
ĄMastermind of Mars.
Ą
ĄThe so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try to
Ąpull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors from
ĄThe Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume that
Ąthey were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a black
Ąsoldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial the
Ąsoldiers must have been Thals.
Ą
ĄAfter the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
Ąviewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
Ąwith Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in the
Ąmiddle ages which could have been completely edited out and not made any
Ądifference to the actual plot.
Ą
ĄFinally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
Ąthe TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
Ądestroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
Ądying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
Ą
ĄSo where is this all leading?
Ą
ĄThe episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
Ąexterminate the boy Davros.
Ą
ĄGoing by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
Ąthe one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
Ą
ĄIs the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
Ąinstead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
Ą
ĄSo my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
Ą
Ą1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
Ąrename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
Ą
Ą2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
Ąliberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
Ąof his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the same
Ąway Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of The
ĄMastermind of Mars.
Ą
Ą3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use them
Ąto take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so that he
Ącould carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same reason Ras
ĄThavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before his experiment
Ąwent out of control and he become their servant rather than their master.
Ą
Ą4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as Ras
ĄThavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
Ą
Ą5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
Ąget the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
Ąthe Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
Ą
Ą6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
Ąreturn to humanoid form.
Ą
ĄFinally the score
Ą
Ą10/10 for entertainment.
Ą
Ą72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
Ąpointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the middle
Ąages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just for laughs
Ąand other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it in the first
Ąplace only to kill her off? What additional purpose does she serve? It
Ąwould have been better to have replaced all that with something more
Ąrelevant to the themes raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the
ĄDaleks and concentrated on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended
Ąup in the middle of a battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of
Ąeverything out of sequence is getting really annoying.
Ą
Ą
Ą
Ą
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 23:56:28 +0100, in rec.arts.drwho Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
ĄThe Magician's Apprentice
Ą
ĄNew title sequence... there wasn't one!
Ą
ĄAfter the prologue and the prequel everything is given away in the
Ąpre-title sequence. Then come the stupid clocks. When is Peter Capaldi
Ągoing to be given a decent set of opening titles? These continue to be
Ąthe worst titles in the series ever.
Ą
ĄWhy was the episode called The Magician's Apprentice? Who was the
ĄMagician? Who the Apprentice? What did any of it have to do with the
Ąoriginal story the title came from? Where were the animated broom sticks
Ącarrying buckets of water? What happened to the Peer Gynt Suite? Where
Ąwas Mickey Mouse? There wasn't even any magic.
Ą
ĄAs to what the story is actually based on, The Master Mind of Mars and
ĄSynthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs both come to mind.
Ą
ĄSPOILERS
Ą
ĄDo now cross this point if you've not watched episode 1 or read Edgar
ĄRice Burroughs Barsoom series.
Ą
Ą1
Ą2
Ą3
Ą4
Ą5
Ą6
Ą7
Ą8
Ą9
Ą0
Ą1
Ą2
Ą3
Ą4
Ą5
Ą6
Ą7
Ą8
Ą9
Ą0
Ą1
Ą2
Ą3
Ą4
Ą5
Ą6
Ą7
Ą8
Ą9
Ą0
Ą
ĄThe Master Mind of Skaro
Ą
ĄSo the Doctor encounters a child in the middle of a mine field and
Ąmistakenly attempts to save his life by tossing him his sonic
Ąscrewdriver only to find out that this child is actually Davros the Dark
ĄLord of Skaro. Who does Moffat think Davros is, Vodermort? Sauron?
Ą
ĄStephen Moffat has obviously decided to go back to the original source
Ąmaterial for the Daleks and their creator, namely The Chessmen of Mars,
ĄThe Master Mind of Mars and Synthetic Men of Mars by Edgar Rice
ĄBurroughs, with this plot since it opens much like the start of The
ĄMastermind of Mars.
Ą
ĄThe so called "hand mines" basically hands with eyes in them that try to
Ąpull you into the ground are obviously an allusion to the Rykors from
ĄThe Chessmen of Mars and probably don't have any heads. I presume that
Ąthey were left there by the Kaleds since they were attacking a black
Ąsoldier and since I doubt that Kaled society would be multiracial the
Ąsoldiers must have been Thals.
Ą
ĄAfter the initial premise is set up Moffat proceeds to inflict on the
Ąviewer half an hour of pointless time wasting with Missy prancing around
Ąwith Clara and the Doctor prancing around with a rock guitar in the
Ąmiddle ages which could have been completely edited out and not made any
Ądifference to the actual plot.
Ą
ĄFinally the Doctor, Missy and Clara are transported to Skaro along with
Ąthe TARDIS and the latter two protagonists exterminated, the TARDIS
Ądestroyed, while the Doctor is trapped with Davros's who tells him he's
Ądying and the Doctor hasn't long left to go either.
Ą
ĄSo where is this all leading?
Ą
ĄThe episode ends with the Doctor traveling back in time to seemingly
Ąexterminate the boy Davros.
Ą
ĄGoing by today's infantile standard of cliffhangers I doubt Davros is
Ąthe one the Doctor is pointing the Dalek weapon at.
Ą
ĄIs the Doctor trying to change the course of history by saving Davros
Ąinstead of leaving him to save himself or by not saving him?
Ą
ĄSo my predictions for The Witches Familiar.
Ą
Ą1) There's not going to be any witch or any familiar either. Let's
Ąrename it Synthetic Men of Skaro
Ą
Ą2) The Doctor goes back in time and saves the boy Davros and agrees to
Ąliberate Davros's island. In return Davros agrees to live out the rest
Ąof his life using his medical skills to help people in need in the same
Ąway Ras Thavas (the original basis for Davros) does at the end of The
ĄMastermind of Mars.
Ą
Ą3) Davros reveals that his original plan for the Daleks was to use them
Ąto take back his laboratory which was captured by the Thals so that he
Ącould carry out his work as a healer. Basically the same reason Ras
ĄThavas had for creating the Synthetic Men of Mars before his experiment
Ąwent out of control and he become their servant rather than their master.
Ą
Ą4) Davros gets the Doctor to transplant his brain into a new body as Ras
ĄThavas got Vad Varo to do in The Mastermind of Mars.
Ą
Ą5) Departing from ERB, the whole plot is revealed to be a deception to
Ąget the Doctor to save Davros as a boy and bring about the creation of
Ąthe Daleks. Basically a rewrite of Revelation of the Daleks.
Ą
Ą6) The Daleks decide that with Skaro free of Thals it is now time to
Ąreturn to humanoid form.
Ą
ĄFinally the score
Ą
Ą10/10 for entertainment.
Ą
Ą72/100 for the quality of writing of the story which was ruined by the
Ąpointless prancing around by the Doctor with a rock guitar in the middle
Ąages and Missy needlessly killing whoever took her fancy just for laughs
Ąand other time wasting. Why was Missy even written into it in the first
Ąplace only to kill her off? What additional purpose does she serve? It
Ąwould have been better to have replaced all that with something more
Ąrelevant to the themes raised by Tom Baker's speech in Genesis of the
ĄDaleks and concentrated on the story of the boy Davros and how he ended
Ąup in the middle of a battlefield. Also Moffat's perpetual writing of
Ąeverything out of sequence is getting really annoying.
Ą
Ą
Ą
Ą
Tim Bruening
Feb 6, 2017, 11:33:32 PM2/6/17
to
How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
Tim Bruening
Feb 6, 2017, 11:38:21 PM2/6/17
to
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:37:08 AM UTC-7, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <1bed7635-5e0f-4a84...@googlegroups.com>,
> TB <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 7:54:44 PM UTC-7, Agamemnon wrote:
> >> On 20/09/2015 03:25, Pudentame wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The Doctor's the magician, Davros is the apprentice.
> >> >
> >>
> >> How? What did the Doctor teach Davros. Davros didn't even remember the
> >> Doctor until his 13th incarnation.
> >
> >WHY didn't Davros remember his childhood encounter with the Doctor?
>
> He does now.
But why didn't he remember it earlier?
> In article <1bed7635-5e0f-4a84...@googlegroups.com>,
> TB <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 7:54:44 PM UTC-7, Agamemnon wrote:
> >> On 20/09/2015 03:25, Pudentame wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 00:22:17 +0100, Mike Hall
> >> > <tar...@spam3spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 19/09/2015 23:56, Agamemnon wrote:
> >> >>> The Magician's Apprentice
> >> >>>
> >> >
> >> > I liked it.
> >> > <tar...@spam3spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 19/09/2015 23:56, Agamemnon wrote:
> >> >>> The Magician's Apprentice
> >> >>>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Doctor's the magician, Davros is the apprentice.
> >> >
> >>
> >> How? What did the Doctor teach Davros. Davros didn't even remember the
> >> Doctor until his 13th incarnation.
> >
> >WHY didn't Davros remember his childhood encounter with the Doctor?
>
> He does now.
But why didn't he remember it earlier?
The Doctor
Feb 7, 2017, 12:45:01 AM2/7/17
to
In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
>tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
Well the Daleks got there first.
>How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
>tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
God is dead! Yahweh lives! Jesus his only begotten Son is the Risen Saviour!!
The Doctor
Feb 7, 2017, 12:45:23 AM2/7/17
to
Tim Bruening
Feb 7, 2017, 5:33:03 AM2/7/17
to
On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
>
> Well the Daleks got there first.
I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the snake man showed up!
> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
>
> Well the Daleks got there first.
The Doctor
Feb 7, 2017, 10:21:57 AM2/7/17
to
In article <30c6b3cc-7d01-4871...@googlegroups.com>,
Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
>> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
>> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
>>
>> Well the Daleks got there first.
>
>I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the
>snake man showed up!
We procured the services ofthe TARDIS. Does that come to mind?
>On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
>> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
>> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
>>
>> Well the Daleks got there first.
>
>I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the
>snake man showed up!
Tim Bruening
Feb 7, 2017, 2:34:51 PM2/7/17
to
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 7:21:57 AM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <30c6b3cc-7d01-4871...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> >> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
> >> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
> >>
> >> Well the Daleks got there first.
> >
> >I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the
> >snake man showed up!
>
> We procured the services ofthe TARDIS. Does that come to mind?
So the Daleks may have preceded the Doctor to 1138, but I doubt that the Doctor KNEW that the Daleks were present. I assume that had the Doctor known that the Daleks were present, he would have left! Therefore, the Doctor should have assumed that the 1138 town was pristine timewise, and considered the possibility of the timeline being damaged by the townsfolk seeing advanced technology.
> In article <30c6b3cc-7d01-4871...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> >> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
> >> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
> >>
> >> Well the Daleks got there first.
> >
> >I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the
> >snake man showed up!
>
> We procured the services ofthe TARDIS. Does that come to mind?
Tim Bruening
Feb 7, 2017, 4:21:03 PM2/7/17
to
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 7:21:57 AM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <30c6b3cc-7d01-4871...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> >> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
> >> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
> >>
> >> Well the Daleks got there first.
> >
> >I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the
> >snake man showed up!
>
> We procured the services of the TARDIS. Does that come to mind?
> In article <30c6b3cc-7d01-4871...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 9:45:01 PM UTC-8, The Doctor wrote:
> >> In article <7a7a98de-c1fb-4628...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >How did the Doctor know that showing the people of 1138 such things as
> >> >tanks and electric guitars wouldn't bend the timeline out of shape?
> >>
> >> Well the Daleks got there first.
> >
> >I thought that the Doctor had been in 1138 for three weeks before the
> >snake man showed up!
>
I just recall the head man growing a Dalek eye stalk and proclaiming that the TARDIS had been procured. I don't recall the TARDIS agreeing to provide any services to the Daleks.
I had assumed that the Daleks had infiltrated the town and infected the head man at around the same time as Colony Scarf's arrival.
The Doctor
Feb 7, 2017, 6:19:37 PM2/7/17
to
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