Joyce and Savar! (SPOILERS)
I. Inayat
>Just off hand:
>1) Who was Joyce (in UH), were we supposed to know who he was?
>2) Just what the hell was the deal with Savar's eyes? I read those books so
>far apart (well, they DID come out half-a-year apart) that I didn't
remember
>anything of the backstory is Seeing I.
SPOILER space for 'Unnatural History', 'The Infinity Doctors', 'Seeing I' &
'Room With No Doors'
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
1) WARNING: This is a red herring. What he's _doing_ is just as important.
We learn in The Infinity Doctors that the Infinity Doctor's father is a
professor at Berkeley.
In The Nth Doctor (Virgin non-fiction), his father's name was suggested as
Ulysses, hence the name Joyce. (after the writer of 'Ulysses', James Joyce).
And the Doctor comments, in 'Unnatural History', that the pseudonym 'Daniel
Joyce' is appropriate for this man.
Joyce has an assistant called Larna (who may/may not be the same as TID's
Larna, but she does recognise the Doctor....)
The Infinity Doctor has a portrait of a couple who, we presume, are his
parents. Joyce has a print of a woman who looks eerily like the woman in
that portrait. (And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No Doors'
. If it helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The Odyssey'....)
Or, he could be the Infinity Doctor himself.
One thing is for sure: he's _not_ a Time Lord.
2)According to the Doctor in 'Seeing I', the I needed to take Savar's eyes
to work the Gallifreyan technology they took from Savar. Including the
mind-probe.(Something about Gallifreyan technology working on retinal
scans.)
We see the same event from Savar's perspective in TID.
Imran Inayat
-some 'hope you haven't already been sent this...' guy
mich...@execpc.com
"I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> SPOILER space for 'Unnatural History', 'The Infinity
Doctors', 'Seeing I' &
> 'Room With No Doors'
And since I just finished "Unnatural History" (read it last night
& this morning; always good when I read them fast, I'll follow)
> The Infinity Doctor has a portrait of a couple who, we presume, are
his
> parents. Joyce has a print of a woman who looks eerily like the woman
in
> that portrait. (And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No
Doors'
> . If it helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The
Odyssey'....)
Aie! Surely that's concidental, as I don't think the "Ulysses" concept
was really known at that time of Room With No Doors. I don't care if
it isn't, because it's my favorite connection since I realized that
Merlin was half human....
(I thought Joyce was one of the best bits of Unnatural History -- but
then, I thought it was a clever working of that bit of the story. And
I've actually found that to be very Doctor Whoish, much more than the
pure "Ulysses" story of Fathers & Brothers -- Joyce and Professor
Chronotis from Shada are very much of the same mold (if not outright
the same character) )
Michael Lee
http://www.execpc.com/~michaell
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Richard Jones
>In article <7q9esg$hqk$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> SPOILER space for 'Unnatural History', 'The Infinity
>Doctors', 'Seeing I' &
>> 'Room With No Doors'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No
>Doors'
>> . If it helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The
>Odyssey'....)
>
>Aie! Surely that's concidental, as I don't think the "Ulysses" concept
>was really known at that time of Room With No Doors.
Well, it had already been referenced in Cold Fusion...
I suspect you're right about it having been a coincidence though.
Still, doesn't mean it has to stay one!
> I don't care if
>it isn't, because it's my favorite connection since I realized that
>Merlin was half human....
I like it too... and I'd love to see Penelope again.
--
Richard Jones.
"Among Zen Buddhists it is said, 'When you
meet another bodisattva on the road, greet
him with neither words nor silence.' That
leaves you with a vast selection of barnyard
noises from which to choose." - Principia Discodia.
Nicholas Smale
> "I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >(And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No Doors'. If it
> >helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The Odyssey'....)
>
> Aie! Surely that's concidental, as I don't think the "Ulysses" concept
> was really known at that time of Room With No Doors.
A quick dejanews search reveals that r.a.dw was discussing the Ulysses
"concept" in some detail as early as March 1996 - over a year prior to
the publication of THE ROOM WITH NO DOORS. Kate Orman was a rec.arts
regular in those days, so you can be sure that she knew *all* about it
when she was penning the novel...
--
Nick Smale <http://www.smale.demon.co.uk>
Manchester, UK
Jonathan Blum
Richard Jones <tige...@net.ntl.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:06:34 GMT, mich...@execpc.com wrote:
>
>>In article <7q9esg$hqk$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>> "I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> SPOILER space for 'Unnatural History', 'The Infinity
>>Doctors', 'Seeing I' &
>>> 'Room With No Doors'
>> (And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No
>>Doors'
>>> . If it helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The
>>Odyssey'....)
>>Aie! Surely that's concidental, as I don't think the "Ulysses" concept
>>was really known at that time of Room With No Doors.
>Well, it had already been referenced in Cold Fusion...
>I suspect you're right about it having been a coincidence though.
>Still, doesn't mean it has to stay one!
I think it's safe to say Kate *did* know about it at the time of "Room".
>> I don't care if
>>it isn't, because it's my favorite connection since I realized that
>>Merlin was half human....
>I like it too... and I'd love to see Penelope again.
So would I. Kate was working on a (non-Who) novel following Miss Gate on
her four-dimensional adventures, but it's been scrapped for other
things... you never know, though, maybe someday.
Oh, and about the Chronotis connection -- the only connection between
Professor Joyce and Chronotis is that Robert DeLaurentiis, who heavily
influenced Joyce's character, was in turn inspired by "Shada". Other than
the surface connection of the university, though, I don't think there's
many other similarities... Joyce is much more connected to the world
outside the university than the dried-up old don. :-)
Regards,
Jon Blum
Stephen Graves
Richard Jones wrote in message <37e3fb49...@news.net.ntl.com>...
>On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:06:34 GMT, mich...@execpc.com wrote:
>
>>In article <7q9esg$hqk$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>> "I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> SPOILER space for 'Unnatural History', 'The Infinity
>>Doctors', 'Seeing I' &
>>> 'Room With No Doors'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No
>>Doors'
>>> . If it helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The
>>Odyssey'....)
>>
>>Aie! Surely that's concidental, as I don't think the "Ulysses" concept
>>was really known at that time of Room With No Doors.
>
>Well, it had already been referenced in Cold Fusion...
When was that, then? I didn't spot that reference...
SG
Richard Jones
<Stephen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Well, [The Ulysees concept] had already been referenced in Cold Fusion...
>
>When was that, then? I didn't spot that reference...
The journey Patience's husband underwent is described as 'The
Odyssey'.
--
Richard Jones.
Michael Lee
><mich...@execpc.com> wrote:
>> "I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >(And like Penelope Gate, guest star of 'Room With No Doors'. If it
>> >helps, Penelope was the name of Ulysses' wife in 'The Odyssey'....)
>>
>> Aie! Surely that's concidental, as I don't think the "Ulysses" concept
>> was really known at that time of Room With No Doors.
>A quick dejanews search reveals that r.a.dw was discussing the Ulysses
>"concept" in some detail as early as March 1996 - over a year prior to
>the publication of THE ROOM WITH NO DOORS. Kate Orman was a rec.arts
>regular in those days, so you can be sure that she knew *all* about it
>when she was penning the novel...
I stand corrected (and my memory wasn't completely operating --- I was
on radw at the time after all.) I was thinking in terms of when the Nth
Doctor came out, which was later, even if that subject matter had been
previously known. Maybe something is mucking with *my* biodata.
I certainly feel that way sometimes.
(It's mainly that I hadn't thought of Penelope Gate in that context before,
and Room is one of my favorite novels...if only there was time to reread it!)
--
Michael Lee
http://www.execpc.com/~michaell
Michael Lee
Spoiler for Unnatural History, barely...
[re: Penelope Gate from Room With No Doors and that Penelope (in myth) is
the wife of Ulysses
>I think it's safe to say Kate *did* know about it at the time of "Room".
Guess it isn't a coincidence! :) Learn a new cool thing everyday.
>Oh, and about the Chronotis connection -- the only connection between
>Professor Joyce and Chronotis is that Robert DeLaurentiis, who heavily
>influenced Joyce's character, was in turn inspired by "Shada". Other than
>the surface connection of the university, though, I don't think there's
>many other similarities... Joyce is much more connected to the world
>outside the university than the dried-up old don. :-)
Well, both clearly are also Time Lord criminals -- Joyce has the faded tatoo
(which one of Miles book's established was a TL criminal brand) and so was
Chronotis. That's actually what I cued in on a whole lot more than anything
else that made him more Chronotis than DeLaurentiiis's failed pilot script
did.
I'm probably overdue for a Shada rewatch....
Jonathan Blum
Michael Lee <mich...@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>jb...@zipper.zip.com.au (Jonathan Blum) writes:
>
>Spoiler for Unnatural History, barely...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Professor Joyce and Chronotis is that Robert DeLaurentiis, who heavily
>>influenced Joyce's character, was in turn inspired by "Shada". Other than
>>the surface connection of the university, though, I don't think there's
>>many other similarities... Joyce is much more connected to the world
>>outside the university than the dried-up old don. :-)
>Well, both clearly are also Time Lord criminals -- Joyce has the faded tatoo
>(which one of Miles book's established was a TL criminal brand) and so was
>Chronotis. That's actually what I cued in on a whole lot more than anything
>else that made him more Chronotis than DeLaurentiiis's failed pilot script
>did.
If you check out DeLaurentiis' outline from "The Nth Doctor", there's
actually another place where Joyce could have gotten a tattoo on his
arm...
Regards,
Jon Blum