What changes would YOU make?
The Eighth Doctor
got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
could we make?
Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to work
in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be like
now?
My head hurts.....
--
Atomic Chris Corky
How dare you? How *dare* you?
How dare you call me Half Human?
Brax
"The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
> got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> could we make?
>
> Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
>
> Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
> tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to
work
> in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
> have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be
like
> now?
>
> My head hurts.....
I wouldn't change anything
at all
Brax
remove hormel to reply
tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to work
in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be like
now?>
Interesting idea. I could've headed back in time to destroy petroleum.
Whenever people say that making tobacco illegal would put a lot of people out
of work, they forget how many people work to make crack. There are A LOT of
better things people can do to earn money other than manufacturing poison...
o--c
___
/ __ __ __ \ / _ __ __
/ |_ |_ |_ \ /\ / | | |_/ |_/|_
(_/ |_ | | \/ \/ |_| | \ | \ _|
---c
Building the foundations for a spookier tomorrow...
The Eighth Doctor
news:20020307184919...@mb-cc.aol.com...
> <Travelling back in time to destroy all
> tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to
work
> in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
> have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be
like
> now?>
>
> Interesting idea. I could've headed back in time to destroy petroleum.
>
> Whenever people say that making tobacco illegal would put a lot of people
out
> of work, they forget how many people work to make crack. There are A LOT
of
> better things people can do to earn money other than manufacturing
poison...
>
Lets stay off the drugs track people, I couldnt go thru that again.....
Auntie Krizu
"The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> kirjoitti
viestissä news:a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time
travel,
> got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what
changes
> could we make?
Stayed in the Neolithic. Maintained a more peaceful culture and never
discovered agriculture (destroyed our health and blew up the
population--hunter-gatherers were better off in several respects) and
domination culture (resulted in b/w thinking and violence in every
respect--read Eisler's "Chalice and the Blade" if you need to find out).
Hey 10 000 BC, hey, it works for me.
What would have resulted? IMHO we might be a lot happier and would have had
lots of interesting discoveries way sooner. One interesting thing might be
how we would look and sound if the proto-Indo-Europeans hadn't sacked
Europe from the Neolithic onwards and made us what we are now. We'd
probably have dark skin and hair and speak something reminiscent of Basque
or the Finno-Ugric languages (I may speak an old language but racially I'm
Indo-European, so not much pride there for my ancestors nicking an
aboriginal language)...
Auntie Krizu(:>)
Brax
"Auntie Krizu" <ask.fo...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message
news:a691ci$erk$1...@news1.song.fi...
sounds alright actually
I wonder if humans would have evolved into separate species by now if this'd
happened?
Brax
MDS
>
> Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
> got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> could we make?
>
> Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
>
> Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
> tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to work
> in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
> have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be like
> now?
>
> My head hurts.....
Hmmmm. A very interesting question. The answer to a question like
this is always easier said than done were it possible to be done. I
would imagine that if I wanted to change the course of the American
civil war I would simply pick up the copy of General Lee's plans that
were dropped by one of his generals and fell into a union officer's
hands. Those plans enabled General McClellan to intercept Lee's
invading army in what is now known as the Battle Of Antietam. Had those
plans never made it into McClellan's hands, Lee's ultimate aim of
destroying McClellan's army may have succeeded. But then again it may
have been stopped somewhere else.
Other things I'd like to change would be so much harder to accomplish.
Were I to want to stop the sinking of the Titanic, the attack on Pearl
Harbor, the assassination of President Kennedy or the attack on America
on 9/11, who would listen to a lunatic claiming to know what would
happen if things aren't altered? Noone really. Perhaps I could have
phoned in a warning to the FBI naming each of the 19 hijackers, which
planes they'd be on and what their plans were. I don't know. Now my
head hurts. :-(
--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)
-----------------------
Wouldn't it be great if you could see the 3 Stooges again?
Well now you can. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.
You must have access to usenet and a good newsreader.
The 3 Stooges (John, Steve and Burns). Only at RADW.
MDS
"But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
MDS
You asked the question. He gave an answer. Ah, drugs!
Brax
"MDS" <Laug...@those.stooges> wrote in message
news:3C8815...@those.stooges...
ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
Brax
MDS
No, I haven't.
The Doctor
remove hormel to reply <jeff...@aol.com.hormel> wrote:
><Travelling back in time to destroy all
>tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to work
>in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
>have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be like
>now?>
>
>Interesting idea. I could've headed back in time to destroy petroleum.
>
>Whenever people say that making tobacco illegal would put a lot of people out
>of work, they forget how many people work to make crack. There are A LOT of
>better things people can do to earn money other than manufacturing poison...
>
How was petrol first discovered?
>o--c
> ___
> / __ __ __ \ / _ __ __
> / |_ |_ |_ \ /\ / | | |_/ |_/|_
> (_/ |_ | | \/ \/ |_| | \ | \ _|
> ---c
>Building the foundations for a spookier tomorrow...
>
--
Member - Liberal International On 11 Sept 2001 the WORLD was violated.
This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
Society MUST be saved! Extremists must dissolve.
Spammer: 21st Century Version of the Elctronic Neanderthal Man
Auntie Krizu
"Brax" <Br...@ks159.fsnet.co.uk> kirjoitti viestissä
news:a69258$adh$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Well, according to Eisler's theories, we are capable of both types of
cultures (Chalice culture=the power revered is the power of the
life-affirming, life-giving and equality. Blade culture=the power revered
is the power of the sword, i.e. the power of taking life, the power of
strict hierarchy) already. IMHO the egalitarian hunter-gatherer tribes that
once populated Europe are almost extinct bar some little groups, like the
!Kung tribes around the brims of the Kalahari desert.
Eisler's website can be found at:
http://partnershipway.org/
Thankfully every human being is born (IMHO) tabula rasa, so the choice is
up to them... but more people need to read about cultural history as it
really is, to be educated enough to know that there's actually a chance to
(try and) live in a way that isn't based on hierarchies, fear and
power-over. Trying to live like this in a blade culture is a subject of its
own, it's nigh impossible, but that doesn't stop *me* trying... I loathe
violence but if someone tried to murder me what chance would I have to stop
him if talking wouldn't help? I'd have to kick him. Does Bin Laden or any
other psychopath beyond all sanity turn nice and cuddly if you talk to him,
and put his gun away from your face? No. As much as I believe in human
potential, some people *have* thrown away their potential to be nice to
others. So my choice is to concentrate on what *can* be salvaged. What
*can* be done. In short--help people get information and think for
themselves, since *ignorance* is the greatest breeder of tyranny in the
world. The world isn't going to change much in my lifetime, but I can make
some contribution. And that enough makes me content.
</rant>
Auntie Krizu(:>) (who'd better take this to private email as doubtlessly
this post will spawn tons of "fucking stupid hippie bitch" flames.)
The Doctor
>Brax wrote:
>>
>> "The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>> > Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
>> > got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
>> > could we make?
>> >
>> > Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
>> >
>> > Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
>> > tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to
>> work
>> > in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
>> > have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be
>> like
>> > now?
>> >
>> > My head hurts.....
>>
>> I wouldn't change anything
>>
>> at all
>>
>> Brax
>
> "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
>
But you are a participant.
>--
>MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)
>-----------------------
>
>Wouldn't it be great if you could see the 3 Stooges again?
>
>Well now you can. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.
>
>You must have access to usenet and a good newsreader.
>
>The 3 Stooges (John, Steve and Burns). Only at RADW.
JerryD
> > >
> > > I wouldn't change anything
> > >
> > > at all
> > >
> > > Brax
> >
> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
>
> ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
>
> Brax
"A sound of Thunder."
classic story.
being made into a movie, btw...
MDS
>
> In article <3C8815...@those.stooges>, MDS <3Tr...@the.landfill> wrote:
> >Brax wrote:
> >>
> >> "The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
> >> news:a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> >> > Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
> >> > got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> >> > could we make?
> >> >
> >> > Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
> >> >
> >> > Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
> >> > tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to
> >> work
> >> > in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
> >> > have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be
> >> like
> >> > now?
> >> >
> >> > My head hurts.....
> >>
> >> I wouldn't change anything
> >>
> >> at all
> >>
> >> Brax
> >
> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
> >
>
> But you are a participant.
Participants might discover that they help to fulfill history.
remove hormel to reply
In Pennsylvania in (I believe) the 1840s. It was so prevalent in that area
that it used to seep up from the ground. The "bubbling crude" of the Beverly
Hillbillies is an actual possible scenario. The site, known as Oil City, is a
historic place in NW Pennsylvania, near the Appalacians.
remove hormel to reply
happened?>
Evolution ended when we began medicine. Look at bad eyesight. Through natural
selection, there would be no one with bad eyes if spectacles had never been
invented.
Louise
This kind of reminds me of the book Replay. It's kind of like Groundhog Day,
only: it was written before that movie came out; each repetition is not doing
the same day over and over - it's years (going from age 43 or so back to age
18, for instance); and each rep gets a little shorter because it starts later
in the person's life. A man and a woman who are each going through these
replays try to find others who are going through it too, by placing an ad in
the paper. (I'm not going to dig out the book, but it was something like, "Do
you remember Princess Di?" and other examples, and it was the '70s.) The only
respondent to the ad was a homicidal whackjob. I was depressed for the
characters; they'd gone through so much only to find this one looney.
The book was one of those mixed-blessing answers to the question, "What would
you do if you could do it all over?" You could fix a lot of stuff but you could
also create lots of new misery in place of your first set of mistakes. The book
does end on a hopeful note, but the characters go through a lot getting there.
Hope I haven't ruined the book for anyone...
Louise Lobinske
Maintainer, Who's Doctor Who - A Biography of The Doctor
www.whosdw.com
Remove the eggs and spam to reply
remove hormel to reply
current history, causality, etc.
Maybe a better question might be: What changes could we make NOW?
My gf doesn't vote (though she will when she moves in with me!) and neither
does her family. Heck, they're hicks. That's the best way of which I can
think to change history, meaning what's going on now.
If I had more of a hand in making decisions, I would make punishments for drug
dealers and sellers stiffer (woulda thought?) and a program of intense urban
renewal - destroy the derelict buildings, build new ones, halt urban sprawl,
and plant a few more trees. And stop cutting down old ones.
Paul
The Eighth Doctor wrote:
>
> Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
> got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> could we make?
>
> Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
>
> Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
> tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to work
> in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
> have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be like
> now?
I'd convince that bearded trouble maker that started all of this
Christian stuff to give up religion, and assassinate several Roman
emperors. Essentially, I'd want it so the Roman Empire never ended.
Remove a good 1000 years of time-wasting, and by now we'd all be flying
to Mars for our holidays. In our togas. Spending our sestertii on
non-fattening Pringles & pizza. And having sex with robot whores.
Just a thought.
Paul
David Brider
I read a quote about that recently to the effect that one of the directors
assigned to it wanted to take the butterfly out...
--
David Brider; a full-length adventure, too broad and too deep for the small
screen.
This week I have been mostly re-reading: "The Adversary" by Julian May.
"...God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners,
Christ died for us."
(Romans 5:8)
"I'm always the kooky girl. I don't think I have ever played someone my age,
straight, together, who wears normal clothes and doesn't turn out to be a
murderer."
(Charlotte Coleman. 3rd April 1968 - 14th November 2001. Irreplaceable.)
http://www.geocities.com/davidbrider/index.html
David Brider
>Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
>got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
>could we make?
>
>Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
Well, I'm a firm believer that it's impossible to change history. Short of
knocking down a pine tree and accidentally preventing your parents from falling
in love and discovering that your mother-to-be has got a crush on you, all of
that sort of thing...
Anyway, though, at a personal level, I'd try to do more work on my marriage
before it all turned sour. Hey, maybe we'd still be together and I'd actually
be vaguely happy?
At a larger level, I'd try to ensure that the Nazi party never came to power in
Germany, and that something more positive took its place. Result - no
holocaust, no World War II, a lot of people a lot happier than they would
otherwise have been.
(On the other hand, have you ever read Stepgen Fry's "Making History"?
Fascinating account of a man who tries to ensure that Hitler was never
born...backfires horribly, with Germany taking over Europe...*must* be read,
Fry's a genius.)
As far as radw is concerned, I'd issue Burns' parents with some better
contraceptives...
The Eighth Doctor
> > >> > > Brax
> >
> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
>
> ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
>
> Brax
I beleive I did, in some short story compendium when I was about 10.... and
I saw that Simsons Hallowe'en special too :)
The Eighth Doctor
"David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a69oij$1kn$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point out
that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....?
--
Atomic Chris Corky
How dare you? How *dare* you?
How dare you call me Half Human?
remove hormel to reply
that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....?<
Interestingly, the USA tried to bait Japan into attacking by sending a
destroyer somewhere, I forget where.
JerryD
David Brider wrote:
>
> JerryD wrote in message <3C882034...@domain.com>...
> >
> >> > >
> >> > > I wouldn't change anything
> >> > >
> >> > > at all
> >> > >
> >> > > Brax
> >> >
> >> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
> >>
> >> ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
> >>
> >> Brax
> >
> >
> >"A sound of Thunder."
> >classic story.
> >
> >being made into a movie, btw...
>
> I read a quote about that recently to the effect that one of the directors
> assigned to it wanted to take the butterfly out...
>
Yeah, Renny Harlin...director of films such as Die Hard 2, and
Cliffhanger.
thankfully, according to an interview with Bradbury, they got rid of the
director and not the butterfly. :)
Selaboc
> Other things I'd like to change would be so much harder to accomplish.
> Were I to want to stop the sinking of the Titanic, the attack on Pearl
> Harbor, the assassination of President Kennedy or the attack on America
> on 9/11,
I seem to recall a TV movie (Running Against Time) staring Robert Hays
in which he attempts to stop the Kennedy Assassination in order to
prevent the Vietnam War from happening. He fails. and things get
worse. So his Girlfriend goes back. She fails and time gets even more
screwed up (She tries to convince Johnson to stop the war, instead he
escalates it). Eventually the inventor of the time machine that Hays
used had to go back and prevent Hays from his attempt at stopping the
Assassination in order to set time back on its proper course.
Selaboc
> Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
> got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> could we make?
I don't think I'd change anything prior to my birth year. Would't want
to risk the grandfather-paradox. Beyond that I don't think I'd go for
too much in the way of major historical changes. I'd go more with a
"friends and family" plan of changing history.
Sedge
> <I wonder if humans would have evolved into separate species by now if this'd
> happened?>
>
> Evolution ended when we began medicine. Look at bad eyesight. Through natural
> selection, there would be no one with bad eyes if spectacles had never been
> invented.
I'm colour blind and short sighted, are you saying I would have been
sabre tooth tiger dinner? Individually I might have been, but if I'd
been part of a tribe, perhaps my close sight ability would have made
me an excellent arrow maker. I might not have been able to defend
myself, but the arrows I made would have enabled other people to
defend the whole tribe. I would have had some skill that the whole
tribe could use. Consequently I would mate, and my children *may*
inherit my poor eyesight (if infact it is a genetic problem).
besides the above, I do tend to agree with you though.....I was
listening to radio 4 the other day, and a genetics expert was
basically saying that a similar virus to aids had been prevalent in
monkeys years ago. This resulted in lots of monkeys dying.
Consequently all modern monkeys* are descended from the survivors of
the virus, and are all able to withstand the virus.
oh, and before anybody says it, I don't mean that all aids victims
should be allowed to die, and only the virus-resistant survive.
*modern monkeys are those that shop at Ikea and live in warehouse
flats :)
Unkempt
<Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> skrunggeret:
>
>"David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:a69oij$1kn$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
<SNIP>
>> At a larger level, I'd try to ensure that the Nazi party never came to
>power in
>> Germany, and that something more positive took its place. Result - no
>> holocaust, no World War II, a lot of people a lot happier than they would
>> otherwise have been.
>>
>> (On the other hand, have you ever read Stepgen Fry's "Making History"?
>> Fascinating account of a man who tries to ensure that Hitler was never
>> born...backfires horribly, with Germany taking over Europe...*must* be
>read,
>> Fry's a genius.)
>>
>
>I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point out
>that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
>Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....
Errr...
No.
(Hint: The US didn't win WW2 on their own.)
'Making History' is pretty good, though.
Cheers,
Conrad
MDS
I saw that movie. Didn't the guy's brother end up not dying at the
end?
Andrew McCaffrey
> Stayed in the Neolithic. Maintained a more peaceful culture and never
> discovered agriculture (destroyed our health and blew up the
Of course, the average life expectancy being around thirty years might not
be quite so popular. ;>
--
+------------------------Andrew McCaffrey+[amc...@gl.umbc.edu]---------+
|"Star Wars is adolescent nonsense, Close|"My thumbs have gone weird!" |
|Encounters is obscurantist drivel [and] | -- _Withnail & I_ |
|Star Trek can turn your brains into |"I can't do chords. No sir." |
|puree of bat guano." -- Harlan Ellison| -- B.B. King |
+------------------ http://userpages.umbc.edu/~amccaf1 -----------------+
Andrew McCaffrey
I'll need to get a new perscription if I'm going to have to see that.
*rim shot*
> Through natural
> selection, there would be no one with bad eyes if spectacles had never been
> invented.
Er, that's not exactly true. Evolution has taken place over the course of
millions of years. Glasses and contact lenses are (relatively speaking)
brand-new. People and animals had bad eyesight for ages before the advent
of corrective lenses, yet they still managed to pass along their genes to
the following generations.
The Eighth Doctor
news:rejh8u0jljvo4v87t...@4ax.com...
Errrr, YES! If it wasn't for the Germans and Japs alliance, the USA would
never have come to Europe to aid Britain, HENCE I would vbe typing *this* in
effing GERMAN!!!
HELLO????
--
Atomic Chris Corky
How dare you? How *dare* you?
How dare you call me Half Human?
> Cheers,
> Conrad
>
The Doctor
>The Doctor wrote:
>>
>> In article <3C8815...@those.stooges>, MDS <3Tr...@the.landfill> wrote:
>> >Brax wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>> >> > Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
>> >> > got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
>> >> > could we make?
>> >> >
>> >> > Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
>> >> > tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to
>> >> work
>> >> > in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
>> >> > have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be
>> >> like
>> >> > now?
>> >> >
>> >> > My head hurts.....
>> >>
>> >> I wouldn't change anything
>> >>
>> >> at all
>> >>
>> >> Brax
>> >
>> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
>> >
>>
>> But you are a participant.
>
>
> Participants might discover that they help to fulfill history.
>
And affect its course.
>--
>MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)
>-----------------------
>
>Wouldn't it be great if you could see the 3 Stooges again?
>
>Well now you can. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.
>
>You must have access to usenet and a good newsreader.
>
>The 3 Stooges (John, Steve and Burns). Only at RADW.
Ben Nunn
"Brax" <Br...@ks159.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a695fs$fno$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > > > My head hurts.....
> > >
> > > I wouldn't change anything
> > >
> > > at all
> > >
> > > Brax
> >
> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
>
First thing I would do is to go back and change the laws of time, so that
history could be changed easily, without the inevitable dire consequences.
BTN
Ian MacAninch
>> >I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point
>out
>> >that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
>> >Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....
>>
>> Errr...
>> No.
>> (Hint: The US didn't win WW2 on their own.)
>>
>> 'Making History' is pretty good, though.
>>
>
>Errrr, YES! If it wasn't for the Germans and Japs alliance, the USA would
>never have come to Europe to aid Britain, HENCE I would vbe typing *this* in
>effing GERMAN!!!
>
>HELLO????
"Yavost loobloo" is the best I can come up with phonetically. Might give you a
clue.
Ian MacAninch
Brax
> JerryD wrote in message <3C882034...@domain.com>...
> >
> >> > > I wouldn't change anything
> >> > > at all
> >> > > Brax
> >> >
> >> > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
> >>
> >> ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
> >> Brax
> >
> >"A sound of Thunder."
> >classic story.
I've got a photocopy of it somewhere which we were given to read at school
(perfectly legally, for academic purposes a chapter from a book can be
copied in its entirety)
> >being made into a movie, btw...
>
> I read a quote about that recently to the effect that one of the directors
> assigned to it wanted to take the butterfly out...
Lol! You gotta love Hollywood!
Brax
Brax
"MDS" <Laug...@those.stooges> wrote in message
> Brax wrote:
> > ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
>
spoilers?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
someone went back in time and stepped on a butterfly, and the future was
different when he returned.
Brax
Brax
"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3C882D8C...@eidosnet.co.uk...
>
>
> The Eighth Doctor wrote:
> >
> > Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time
travel,
> > got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what
changes
> > could we make?
> >
> > Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
> >
> > Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy
all
> > tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to
work
> > in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery
might
> > have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be
like
> > now?
>
> I'd convince that bearded trouble maker that started all of this
> Christian stuff to give up religion, and assassinate several Roman
> emperors. Essentially, I'd want it so the Roman Empire never ended.
like that's going to help, he was the one who was against the religion of
the time whilst trying to promote the faith that that religion was swamping.
It's not his fault he was betrayed and murdered, or that his goal was
perverted by the powers that be.
Brax
Brax
"remove hormel to reply" <jeff...@aol.com.hormel> wrote in message
news:20020307222315...@mb-mj.aol.com...
> <I wonder if humans would have evolved into separate species by now if
this'd
> happened?>
>
> Evolution ended when we began medicine. Look at bad eyesight. Through
natural
> selection, there would be no one with bad eyes if spectacles had never
been
> invented.
you could take it back further to the discovery of fire, or the birth of
agriculture or of language (and with it, education)
also clothing.
The biggest impact though is when we started to make the world smaller
through exploration and colonisation (both eastern and western)
Brax
JerryD
Brax wrote:
>
> "David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a69o3j$r6r$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > JerryD wrote in message <3C882034...@domain.com>...
> > >
> > >> > > I wouldn't change anything
> > >> > > at all
>
> > >"A sound of Thunder."
> > >classic story.
>
> I've got a photocopy of it somewhere which we were given to read at school
> (perfectly legally, for academic purposes a chapter from a book can be
> copied in its entirety)
It's been anthologized a ton of times..there's a nice comic-book style
version of it out there I believe...I believe the two most-commone
editions to find it in are 'Golden Apples of the Sun' and 'Ray
Bradbury's Dinosaurs'.
or hell, if you just like bradbury in general, there's a TON of his
stuff out there.
some of it even having to do with Time Travel. :)
</bradbury fan off>
> > >being made into a movie, btw...
> >
> > I read a quote about that recently to the effect that one of the directors
> > assigned to it wanted to take the butterfly out...
>
> Lol! You gotta love Hollywood!
>
What was the one I heard today?
Oh yeah......they're going to remake 'the Manchurian Candidate.'
the mind boggles.
JerryD
> like that's going to help, he was the one who was against the religion of
> the time whilst trying to promote the faith that that religion was swamping.
> It's not his fault he was betrayed and murdered, or that his goal was
> perverted by the powers that be.
>
> Brax
there's a quote..I forget who said it, but it was one of the French
Social thinkers, I believe...something like 'any human institution
inevitably grows more occupied with prolonging its own existence than
with its original reason for creation.'
Auntie Krizu
"Andrew McCaffrey" <amc...@gl.umbc.edu> kirjoitti viestissä
news:a6akqf$m8v$1...@news.umbc.edu...
> Auntie Krizu <ask.fo...@the.newsgroup> wrote:
> > Stayed in the Neolithic. Maintained a more peaceful culture and never
> > discovered agriculture (destroyed our health and blew up the
> > population--hunter-gatherers were better off in several respects) [...]
>
> Of course, the average life expectancy being around thirty years might
not
> be quite so popular. ;>
Longer than with agriculturalists living in the same climate and
surroundings though, and with less diseases, yes, still tempting;). Compare
Australian aboriginals living in the bush compared to those living in the
cities--the ones who move to cities and start eating wheaty sugary Western
food grow fat and are very likely to get adult-onset diabetes since their
genetics work so much better on the hunter-gatherer level. Ours are not far
from that since we have been hunter-gatherers for 2 million years and
agriculturalists only for 10 000-6000 years. It takes around *100 000*
years to bring about a significant mutation in the genes of a population
for a group of people to adjust to a big change like that. Ask any
archaeologist how they know hunter-gatherer bones from agriculturalist
bones. It's easy: the hunter-gatherers' are long and strong while
agriculturalists' are shorter, and more porous. If you'd take a modern
Western agriculturalist's bones and compare them with a contemporary
hunter-gatherer's, you'd get the same results.
The life expectancy view is skewed anyway if you look at it from today's
POV. In the Middle Ages, for example, the average age of a European was 15,
there weren't many old folks about. If we were to really discuss the
effects of a *way of eating* on persons' age, we'd have to narrow it down a
lot (eliminating other cultural factors contributing to the age of a
population), and from the sources I've read, hunter-gatherers would win, no
contest.
Auntie Krizu(:>)
Sean Daugherty
> got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> could we make?
>
> Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
>
> Anyone wanna play? Let me start... Travelling back in time to destroy all
> tobacco :). That would save me money, but would there be an industry to work
> in now? What about the wildlife? What about the farmers... Slavery might
> have ended earlier... what would the political psoition of the world be like
> now?
The United States might never have become as politically powerful as
it became, given that one of the earliest cash crops of the country
(in the colonial days) was tobacco. Then again, there would still be
cotton, which means it might just have taken longer to develop into an
industrial powerhouse. Slavery might very well have followed more of
the course it had on the European continent, and died down due to lack
of any real use for the system. Then again, there's still the cotton
issue. And if slavery had never become as dominant an economic force
in America as it was, then modern demographics would be likely be
wildly different, with a much smaller percentage of people of African
descent in America, which would have altered, most likely, the
political makeup of the country substantially.
It might also have had effects beyond America: Britain, of course,
stood to gain from tobacco farming as well, and the strength they
experienced in the seventeenth through nineteenth centuries might have
been decreased without it.
Or maybe not. It's hard to say.
Selaboc
> I saw that movie. Didn't the guy's brother end up not dying at the
> end?
It's been awhile since I've seen it, but I think you are correct. Part
of the plot was that the time travaller's younger self is in a coma
while the time traveller is in the past. His short visit to the past,
causing his younger self to be in a coma changed his history (maybe
his brother delayed going to vietnam as a result).
Brax
> > >"A sound of Thunder."
> > >classic story.
> > >
> > >being made into a movie, btw...
> >
> > I read a quote about that recently to the effect that one of the
directors
> > assigned to it wanted to take the butterfly out...
> >
>
> Yeah, Renny Harlin...director of films such as Die Hard 2, and
> Cliffhanger.
>
> thankfully, according to an interview with Bradbury, they got rid of the
> director and not the butterfly. :)
Bradbury's still alive? Oh, I thought he was long dead, like Wyndham.
Brax
Brax
"Ben Nunn" <ben...@depro.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a6ap4s$cq7ed$1...@ID-55895.news.dfncis.de...
> > > "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
> >
> > ever read the famous Ray Bradbury story about stepping on butterflies?
>
> First thing I would do is to go back and change the laws of time, so that
> history could be changed easily, without the inevitable dire consequences.
heh, that's clever!
Brax
Brax
> It's been anthologized a ton of times..there's a nice comic-book style
> version of it out there I believe...I believe the two most-commone
> editions to find it in are 'Golden Apples of the Sun' and 'Ray
> Bradbury's Dinosaurs'.
>
> or hell, if you just like bradbury in general, there's a TON of his
> stuff out there.
> some of it even having to do with Time Travel. :)
>
> </bradbury fan off>
I liked Fahrenheit 451, and have The October Country somewhere, though have
yet to read it.
> What was the one I heard today?
I heard on radio one today that Guy Pierce (was in Neighbours years ago as
Mike) is in a remake of The Time Machine.
> Oh yeah......they're going to remake 'the Manchurian Candidate.'
> the mind boggles.
probably end up as the Liverpudlian Candidate
Brax
(not sure what 'the Manchurian Candidate.' is)
MDS
>
> "David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> > The Eighth Doctor wrote in message ...
> > >Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time
> travel,
> > >got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what
> changes
> > >could we make?
> > >
> > >Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
> >
> of
> > knocking down a pine tree and accidentally preventing your parents from
> falling
> > in love and discovering that your mother-to-be has got a crush on you, all
> of
> > that sort of thing...
> >
> > Anyway, though, at a personal level, I'd try to do more work on my
> marriage
> > before it all turned sour. Hey, maybe we'd still be together and I'd
> actually
> > be vaguely happy?
> >
> > At a larger level, I'd try to ensure that the Nazi party never came to
> power in
> > Germany, and that something more positive took its place. Result - no
> > holocaust, no World War II, a lot of people a lot happier than they would
> > otherwise have been.
> >
> > (On the other hand, have you ever read Stepgen Fry's "Making History"?
> > Fascinating account of a man who tries to ensure that Hitler was never
> > born...backfires horribly, with Germany taking over Europe...*must* be
> read,
> > Fry's a genius.)
> >
>
> that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
> --
> Atomic Chris Corky
>
> How dare you? How *dare* you?
> How dare you call me Half Human?
> > contraceptives...
> >
> > --
> > David Brider; a full-length adventure, too broad and too deep for the
> small
> > screen.
> > This week I have been mostly re-reading: "The Adversary" by Julian May.
> > "...God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still
> sinners,
> > Christ died for us."
> > (Romans 5:8)
> > "I'm always the kooky girl. I don't think I have ever played someone my
> age,
> > straight, together, who wears normal clothes and doesn't turn out to be a
> > murderer."
> > (Charlotte Coleman. 3rd April 1968 - 14th November 2001.
> Irreplaceable.)
> > http://www.geocities.com/davidbrider/index.html
> >
> >
That fool was me. And Chris can go assfuck his brother, little twerp.
Paul
Brax wrote:
> > I'd convince that bearded trouble maker that started all of this
> > Christian stuff to give up religion, and assassinate several Roman
> > emperors. Essentially, I'd want it so the Roman Empire never ended.
>
> like that's going to help, he was the one who was against the religion of
> the time whilst trying to promote the faith that that religion was swamping.
Actually, Roman religion was perfectly harmless. It was as daft as any
other, but it didn't promote hatred or persecution. Plus, it was dying
out anyway. The Roman pagan religion was more tradition than anything
else, and it would have died out eventually.
> It's not his fault he was betrayed and murdered, or that his goal was
> perverted by the powers that be.
I would say it is his fault.
Paul
JerryD
Bradbury is in his mid-80's and going strong. apart from the Sound of
Thunder, he has two other film adaptions of his work in development,
and he's still releasing books...his last just came out in the fall..
To the Dust Returned, I think.
JerryD
> > What was the one I heard today?
>
> I heard on radio one today that Guy Pierce (was in Neighbours years ago as
> Mike) is in a remake of The Time Machine.
A very loose adaptation from what I've heard...it's getting mixed
reviews, but could be interesting. If I see it over the weekend I'll let
y'all know if it's any good.
> > Oh yeah......they're going to remake 'the Manchurian Candidate.'
> > the mind boggles.
>
> probably end up as the Liverpudlian Candidate
>
> Brax
> (not sure what 'the Manchurian Candidate.' is)
Classic Political thriller involving Hypnosis, assassination and
corruption from the early 60's that was banned after Kennedy's
assassination until the 80's, I believe.
Brax
>
>
> Brax wrote:
>
> > > I'd convince that bearded trouble maker that started all of this
> > > Christian stuff to give up religion, and assassinate several Roman
> > > emperors. Essentially, I'd want it so the Roman Empire never ended.
> >
> > like that's going to help, he was the one who was against the religion
of
> > the time whilst trying to promote the faith that that religion was
swamping.
>
> Actually, Roman religion was perfectly harmless. It was as daft as any
> other, but it didn't promote hatred or persecution. Plus, it was dying
> out anyway. The Roman pagan religion was more tradition than anything
> else, and it would have died out eventually.
that's not what he was fighting, he was fighting the Jews and their corrupt
ways.
> > It's not his fault he was betrayed and murdered, or that his goal was
> > perverted by the powers that be.
>
> I would say it is his fault.
wouldn't you fight if there was somehting you truly believed in? This one
guy, no matter whether he was human or more than human or what, he changed
the world.
Brax
Brax
>
> > > What was the one I heard today?
> >
> > I heard on radio one today that Guy Pierce (was in Neighbours years ago
as
> > Mike) is in a remake of The Time Machine.
>
> A very loose adaptation from what I've heard...it's getting mixed
> reviews, but could be interesting. If I see it over the weekend I'll let
> y'all know if it's any good.
it's probably the best way. It's more of a sequel really
Brax
The Eighth Doctor
news:20020308114104...@mb-fd.aol.com...
? sorry, no.
David Brider
>
>"David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:a69o3j$r6r$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> JerryD wrote in message <3C882034...@domain.com>...
[Of "A Sound of Thunder"]
>>>being made into a movie, btw...
>>I read a quote about that recently to the effect that one of the directors
>>assigned to it wanted to take the butterfly out...
>Lol! You gotta love Hollywood!
I still love the story of Ivan Reitman in discussion with Douglas Adams about
the H2G2 movie back in the mid-80s (*still* in development hell, that one)
saying that they'd have to change the ultimate answer as 42 wasn't interesting
enough. Douglas made some comment to the effect that Reitman's the kind of guy
who'd buy chocolate chip ice cream and complain about the brown lumps.
David Brider
>> (not sure what 'the Manchurian Candidate.' is)
>Classic Political thriller involving Hypnosis, assassination and
>corruption from the early 60's that was banned after Kennedy's
>assassination until the 80's, I believe.
The way I heard it, it was loosely adapted from "The Deadly Assassin," which in
turn inspired the assassination of Kennedy.
Although I *could* have got that slightly backwards, of course...
Auntie Krizu
"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3C893AFD...@eidosnet.co.uk...
>
>
> Brax wrote:
>
> > > I'd convince that bearded trouble maker that started all of this
> > > Christian stuff to give up religion, and assassinate several Roman
> > > emperors. Essentially, I'd want it so the Roman Empire never ended.
> >
> > like that's going to help, he was the one who was against the religion
of
> > the time whilst trying to promote the faith that that religion was
swamping.
>
> Actually, Roman religion was perfectly harmless. It was as daft as any
> other, but it didn't promote hatred or persecution.
Actually, it wasn't that harmless. Rome was very much a warrior nation with
warrior laws and warrior orientations in its religion(s). Some of the
religious thought of the time got straight into the Catholic Church's
strict doctrines. Like any religion with divine hierarchies ruled by a few
angry old buggers outside this world (Roman religious writers already
mocked the Egyptians for believing that deity was to be found in matter and
nature and other human beings!), it could be used to subjugate others. The
more gentle cults (like that of Isis and many other earlier fertility
cults) were sneered at as things that were "women's folly" or "barbaric" or
"witchcraft" (now why does that sound familiar even today?). Every nation
that is run on slavery and tyranny has to have a religious (or
para-religious, as in USSR's and China's case) dogma and order that serves
its purpose. Without say, Mars and Mithras being such popular gods (and
without a culture orientated towards war and creating war god cults--this
works vice versa), Rome would never have conquered most of Europe. Without
a religion/ideology that separates the spirit from the world and promises
eternal bliss for its deities' faithful warriors, wars would be quite rare
indeed...
Auntie Krizu(:>)
Sean Daugherty
> "The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:<a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com>...
> > Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
> > got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
> > could we make?
>
> to risk the grandfather-paradox. Beyond that I don't think I'd go for
> too much in the way of major historical changes. I'd go more with a
> "friends and family" plan of changing history.
Thing is, its possible to achieve the grandfather paradox (or
something essentially the same) even then. The most obvious example of
it is killing your own grandfather, but if you went back in time some
point during your own life and changed things enough, you could still
end up killing yourself, or even just altering the past enough to make
it so you didn't end up going back in time to alter the past.... If
you change *anything*, you create a potential paradox if you want to
look at time travel that way....
Michael Cugley
called ""The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com>" wrote
the follwing in what can only be called
"news:a6a1u2$9fp$1...@helle.btinternet.com":
> I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point
> out that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never
> happened. Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....?
More likely to be Russian, actually. The Americans really didn't have a
lot to do with Hitler failing to conquer the Soviet Union, and even before
Pearl Harbour the Britain was defending herself against Germany with
material help from America. Invading Britain would have been a huge
undertaking, even if the Reich had gained air and sea superiority, and it's
unlikely they would actually have bothered until they defeated Russia.
Which, unless something *else* has changed, they wouldn't.
So Russia rolls over Germany, and thinks, "What the heck, why not keep
going?"
--
Michael Cugley
http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/
http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/Art/
The Stainless Steel Cat
"The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
>got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
>could we make?
>
>Something for the better..... but imagine the consequences!
I'd go back and prevent the invention of time travel.
1) Because it's too dangerous.
2) Just to see what would happen.
Cat.
--
La Rustimuna ^Stalkato
stee...@mac.comtrousers
Remove trousers to reply
The Eighth Doctor
news:a6btgk$om7$1...@news1.song.fi...
Meddling Mick
>Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
>got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
>could we make? [snip]
Hmm, easy choice for me, really. I'd go back to the year 312 and
convince Roman Emperor Constantine that the flaming cross he saw in
the sky shortly before his victory at the Battle of Milvian Bridge
*wasn't* a sign that Christianity was cool.
As a result of my meddling, he would no longer convert to Christianity
and pass the Edict of Toleration towards the religion the following
year. With no established foothold in the Roman Empire, Christianity
would no longer become recognised as the official religion throughout
the empire by Theodosius in 380.
That'd keep the majority of Europe (especially Britain, yaaay!) free
from Christianity for good, hopefully. As a result of my jolly good
advice to Constantine there would be no Crusades. No
Catholic/Protestant devide in Europe. No witch-hunts. No troubles in
Northern Ireland. I would have saved god-knows how many lives in the
process *and* halted the spread of the most insidious, bigoted,
hypocritical religion on the face of the planet. Oh, and we'd
probably all be pagans right now.
Wow, am I a nice guy, or am I a nice guy?
--
(Meddling) Mick Gair
Underestimating the power of
organic crystallography since 1384
Meddling Mick
>"The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com>" wrote
>
>> I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point
>> out that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never
>> happened. Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....?
>
>More likely to be Russian, actually. The Americans really didn't have a
>lot to do with Hitler failing to conquer the Soviet Union, and even before
>Pearl Harbour the Britain was defending herself against Germany with
>material help from America. Invading Britain would have been a huge
>undertaking, even if the Reich had gained air and sea superiority, and it's
>unlikely they would actually have bothered until they defeated Russia.
>Which, unless something *else* has changed, they wouldn't.
Yay, nice to see someone else seems to think that the Russians had
more of a hand in Germany's defeat than the good o' US of A! Those
Russians are thoroughly underrated, IMO.
Although, to be honest, the people who helped win WW2 for the Allies
were the Nazis themselves. If Hitler hadn't got greedy and turned on
the Russians, we'd be living in a very different world, methinks.
>So Russia rolls over Germany, and thinks, "What the heck, why not keep
>going?"
Hmm, would they have had the resources to do that? I thought they
were practically screwed at the end of the conflict, and it was only
through a battle of attrition (on two fronts for Germany) that finally
ended things?
Meddling Mick
>The Eighth Doctor wrote in message ...
>>Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time travel,
>>got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what changes
>>could we make?
[snip]
>At a larger level, I'd try to ensure that the Nazi party never came to power in
>Germany, and that something more positive took its place. Result - no
>holocaust, no World War II, a lot of people a lot happier than they would
>otherwise have been.
Easiest way to do that would probably be to go to the Teutoberg Forest
in 9AD and ensure Arminius *lost* his battle with Varus's Roman
Legions. That way, Germania would have ended up as part of the Roman
Empire, instead of ensuring Europe remained divided.
There was an interesting documentary about this on the Beeb sometime
last year. The opinion of historians was that with Rome in charge of
Germania, there would never have been a Khieser Wilhelm II or Hitler.
Or Napoleon, either. Hmm - no Hitler, no NATO, no Israel/Palestine
dispute, no Cold War...
Meddling Mick
>There's the whole question if we could change things it would effect our
>current history, causality, etc.
>
>Maybe a better question might be: What changes could we make NOW?
>
>My gf doesn't vote (though she will when she moves in with me!)
LOL. But seriously, isn't the right to vote (or to abstain) entirely
*her* decision to make? Would you like it if your partner decided
whether or not *you* were going to vote, or who you were going to vote
for?
>If I had more of a hand in making decisions, I would make punishments for drug
>dealers and sellers stiffer (woulda thought?) and a program of intense urban
>renewal - destroy the derelict buildings, build new ones, halt urban sprawl,
>and plant a few more trees. And stop cutting down old ones.
With the exception of the old ones that can actually impede the growth
of new ones and *need* to be cut down?
remove hormel to reply
of new ones and *need* to be cut down?>
If we cut down on the rampant distribution of pesticides then the insects would
take care of that.
o--c
___
/ __ __ __ \ / _ __ __
/ |_ |_ |_ \ /\ / | | |_/ |_/|_
(_/ |_ | | \/ \/ |_| | \ | \ _|
---c
Building the foundations for a spookier tomorrow...
The Eighth Doctor
"Meddling Mick" <sutur...@sutureself.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c8c0bfe...@news.freeserve.net...
However.... Britain was being starved. Without the US involvement, supplies
etc Britain could have been quickly overrun...maybe not permanently, but
certainly an occupation.
Michael Cugley
called ""The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com>" wrote
the follwing in what can only be called
> However.... Britain was being starved. Without the US involvement,
> supplies etc Britain could have been quickly overrun...maybe not
> permanently, but certainly an occupation.
The US was involved before Pearl Harbour - selling supplies to Britain, and
when Britain ran out of money, flimflamming the accounts with the
lend/lease scheme. What I can't recall off the top of my head is whether
Hitler attacked Russia before Pearl Harbour or before... if before, I stand
by my theories... which aren't worth a whole heap, having never studied
the period terribly extensively :)
MDS
Hitler invaded Russia on June 22, 1941, well before the attack on Pearl
Harbor.
Brax
> "David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >The Eighth Doctor wrote in message ...
> >>Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time
travel,
> >>got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what
changes
> >>could we make?
> [snip]
> >At a larger level, I'd try to ensure that the Nazi party never came to
power in
> >Germany, and that something more positive took its place. Result - no
> >holocaust, no World War II, a lot of people a lot happier than they would
> >otherwise have been.
>
> Easiest way to do that would probably be to go to the Teutoberg Forest
> in 9AD and ensure Arminius *lost* his battle with Varus's Roman
> Legions. That way, Germania would have ended up as part of the Roman
> Empire, instead of ensuring Europe remained divided.
Hmm, a return of the Meddling Monk in The Vengeance of Varus, perhaps?
Brax
Ian MacAninch
>
>However.... Britain was being starved. Without the US involvement, supplies
>etc Britain could have been quickly overrun...maybe not permanently, but
>certainly an occupation.
God, don't take that to soc.history.what-if. They get very animated at the
mention of the words "Sealion".
Ian MacAninch
Cardinal Zorak
"Auntie Krizu" <ask.fo...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message
>
> "Andrew McCaffrey" <amc...@gl.umbc.edu> kirjoitti viestissä
> news:a6akqf$m8v$1...@news.umbc.edu...
> > Auntie Krizu <ask.fo...@the.newsgroup> wrote:
> > > Stayed in the Neolithic. Maintained a more peaceful culture and never
> > > discovered agriculture (destroyed our health and blew up the
> > > population--hunter-gatherers were better off in several respects)
[...]
> >
> > Of course, the average life expectancy being around thirty years might
> not
> > be quite so popular. ;>
>
> Longer than with agriculturalists living in the same climate and
> surroundings though, and with less diseases, yes, still tempting;).
Compare
> Australian aboriginals living in the bush compared to those living in the
> cities--the ones who move to cities and start eating wheaty sugary Western
> food grow fat and are very likely to get adult-onset diabetes since their
> genetics work so much better on the hunter-gatherer level. Ours are not
far
> from that since we have been hunter-gatherers for 2 million years and
> agriculturalists only for 10 000-6000 years. It takes around *100 000*
> years to bring about a significant mutation in the genes of a population
> for a group of people to adjust to a big change like that.
Yes, but now we are already altering babies' genes and in a few months time
the first human clone is scheduled to be made in Britain. So we no longer
need to adapt our environment to fit ourselves, soon we can adapt ourselves
to fit the environment (e.g. geneering out asthma and so being fit for the
polluted world we want, geneering out the bad reaction to excessive
wheat/sugars etc).
Zorak
"When a woman behaves like a man, why doesn't she behave like a nice man?" -
Edith Evans
Auntie Krizu
"Meddling Mick" <sutur...@sutureself.freeserve.co.uk> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3c8b0bfa...@news.freeserve.net...
Well, yeah, and the Brits would probably still be fending off Viking raids
since they could never figure out who kicked more arse, Taranis (Teutates)
or Thor... and oh, if you want to be really sure, go and bump off Abraham
and Moses too, lest Judaism or Islam do the same thing Christianity did,
just to be on the safe side;). Or if you want to be *really* careful, go
and bump off Hammurabi and other inspiring figures...
Auntie Krizu(:>)
Cardinal Zorak
"Auntie Krizu" <ask.fo...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message
Cometh the hour, cometh the man... if they hadn't beena round, the flock
would have found someone else to mindlessly obey...
Zorak
Sean Daugherty
> "The Eighth Doctor" <Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> kirjoitti
> viestissä news:a68nfn$ffs$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> > Following the thread before, you know, all that gubbins about time
> travel,
> > got me thinking.... if we could travel through Earth History, what
> changes
> > could we make?
>
> discovered agriculture (destroyed our health and blew up the
> domination culture (resulted in b/w thinking and violence in every
> respect--read Eisler's "Chalice and the Blade" if you need to find out).
> Hey 10 000 BC, hey, it works for me.
True, but, then again, I'd not probably not be here (I'm diabetic,
which has never been conclusively tied to to any of the nasty
environmental problems you refer to). Which may be for the best, as
neither would the Internet, and there would go my favorite pastime....
N/A
wrote:
>I'd convince that bearded trouble maker that started all of this
>Christian stuff to give up religion, and assassinate several Roman
>emperors. Essentially, I'd want it so the Roman Empire never ended.
You'd make Phillip K. Dick quite cross if you did that.
N/A
<Atomic_Ch...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
>"David Brider" <david@NO_SPAMdwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:a69oij$1kn$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> (On the other hand, have you ever read Stepgen Fry's "Making History"?
>> Fascinating account of a man who tries to ensure that Hitler was never
>> born...backfires horribly, with Germany taking over Europe...*must* be
>read,
>> Fry's a genius.)
>
>I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point out
>that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
>Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....?
UND WAS IST LOS MIT DEUTSCH???
N/A
<michael.d...@blueyonder.dot.co.dot.uk> wrote:
>More likely to be Russian, actually. The Americans really didn't have a
>lot to do with Hitler failing to conquer the Soviet Union, and even before
>Pearl Harbour the Britain was defending herself against Germany with
>material help from America. Invading Britain would have been a huge
>undertaking, even if the Reich had gained air and sea superiority, and it's
>unlikely they would actually have bothered until they defeated Russia.
>Which, unless something *else* has changed, they wouldn't.
>
>So Russia rolls over Germany, and thinks, "What the heck, why not keep
>going?"
Great idea. But you've forgotten one thing... the Russian army is
shit, and most of their success stems from other countries always
trying to take them over in fucking WINTER.
N/A
While we're at it, can we keep the Vatican from giving the papacy to a
damned Briton?
N/A
sutur...@sutureself.freeserve.co.uk (Meddling Mick) wrote:
>Hmm, easy choice for me, really. I'd go back to the year 312 and
>convince Roman Emperor Constantine that the flaming cross he saw in
>the sky shortly before his victory at the Battle of Milvian Bridge
>*wasn't* a sign that Christianity was cool.
>
>As a result of my meddling, he would no longer convert to Christianity
>and pass the Edict of Toleration towards the religion the following
>year. With no established foothold in the Roman Empire, Christianity
>would no longer become recognised as the official religion throughout
>the empire by Theodosius in 380.
>
>That'd keep the majority of Europe (especially Britain, yaaay!) free
>from Christianity for good, hopefully. As a result of my jolly good
>advice to Constantine there would be no Crusades. No
>Catholic/Protestant devide in Europe. No witch-hunts. No troubles in
>Northern Ireland. I would have saved god-knows how many lives in the
>process *and* halted the spread of the most insidious, bigoted,
>hypocritical religion on the face of the planet. Oh, and we'd
>probably all be pagans right now.
>
>Wow, am I a nice guy, or am I a nice guy?
Oh, BRILLIANT idea. Because after all, it's ONE SINGLE RELIGION out
of the thousands of religions in human history that causes bad stuff
to happen, and not, you know, people using religion, any religion, to
justify their instrinsically being assholes or anything. Certainly
there's NO POSSIBLE RELIGION IN THE UNIVERSE worse than Christianity,
and there's no chance in the world that without Christianity, people
Europeans en masse would turn to a religion that makes Christianity
(which is, after all, a religion about loving your neighbour), for all
its mistakes, look like a Sunday walk in the park.
(Oh, and in the event you were wondering, I'm an atheist.)
MDS
Remember how the Finnish Army kicked the shit out of the Russians
during Finland's winter? It was only after the snow melted that the
Russians were finally able to defeat the Finns.
Brax
"Sean Daugherty" <sean.da...@oberlin.edu> wrote in message
news:f259cf95.02030...@posting.google.com...
there wouldn't be a single person here alive today if any of these drastic
changes would have been made, we'd simply have never been born because each
and every one of us is unique, and without the way history's panned out, our
parents would never have met, and we'd never have been born. In fact none of
the precise details of our geneology would have existed. Even the most
remote tribes of the Kalihari or the Amazon have been affected by our
civilisation in no small a measure.
There would be people, yes, but an entirely different group.
Brax
Brax
"N/A" <f...@bar.com> wrote in message
news:3ccl8u4c02hhna6ik...@4ax.com...
there's nothing wrong with the language, though English would be as common
as Welsh in the 'UK'
Brax
(impressed at actually understanding that, though I couldn't reply :o)
MDS
Not Islam? Today's Islamic fundamentalists make today's Christian
fundamentalists seem almost approachable. And Christianity is not the
worst religion. It has simply been taken over from time to time by
people wishing to use the cross to justify their evil desires.
Auntie Krizu
"Cardinal Zorak" <fab31...@yahooSpamOff.co.uk> kirjoitti viestissä
news:a6e9gk$spi$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Yeah, that's my exact point:). If there's a breeding ground, there will be
similar results anyway. We might have had some Viking messiah for all we
know:).
Auntie Krizu(:>)
Brax
"MDS" <Laug...@those.stooges> wrote in message
news:3C8ABE...@those.stooges...
> N/A wrote:
> > Oh, BRILLIANT idea. Because after all, it's ONE SINGLE RELIGION out
> > of the thousands of religions in human history that causes bad stuff
> > to happen, and not, you know, people using religion, any religion, to
> > justify their instrinsically being assholes or anything. Certainly
> > there's NO POSSIBLE RELIGION IN THE UNIVERSE worse than Christianity,
> > and there's no chance in the world that without Christianity, people
> > Europeans en masse would turn to a religion that makes Christianity
> > (which is, after all, a religion about loving your neighbour), for all
> > its mistakes, look like a Sunday walk in the park.
> >
> > (Oh, and in the event you were wondering, I'm an atheist.)
>
> Not Islam? Today's Islamic fundamentalists make today's Christian
> fundamentalists seem almost approachable. And Christianity is not the
> worst religion. It has simply been taken over from time to time by
> people wishing to use the cross to justify their evil desires.
cheers MDS, couldn't bring anything quite as lucid as that to my reply
(which got deleted)
it's not the religion, it's the Powers That Be aswell as those who shout
loudest.
We at RADW should be quite familar with people who shout loudly...
Brax
Auntie Krizu
"Sean Daugherty" <sean.da...@oberlin.edu> kirjoitti viestissä
news:f259cf95.02030...@posting.google.com...
I'm thinking that science and especially the healing arts would have grown
rapidly faster if we'd maintained a more earth/body-loving culture (the
more dictatorial and warring/body-hating culture, the worse its medicine)
so we never know. Might have developed insulin injections, might have
not... the only good thing about the cruelty of modern science (like
extensive animal testing) and its ways is that it has actually, in some
crooked way, brought about some good things. Not as many as I'd like, but
still. Wonder if we'd have volunteer humans instead of animal testing now
if we'd developed the route of the Neolithic culture's relatively high
respect for all living beings... interesting food for thought. I wouldn't
think we'd all be vegetarians though, but I don't think animals would be
treated in the way they are now either.
Auntie Krizu(:>)
N/A
<ask.fo...@the.newsgroup> wrote:
>Yeah, that's my exact point:). If there's a breeding ground, there will be
>similar results anyway. We might have had some Viking messiah for all we
>know:).
And boy, I bet those White Power idiots would've _loved_ that.
MDS
People who shout often get heard the most. Cheers back.
Paul
Auntie Krizu wrote:
> Actually, it wasn't that harmless. Rome was very much a warrior nation with
> warrior laws and warrior orientations in its religion(s).
True, but the religion didn't really influence the brutality. Rome was
the most civilised nation on earth (the exception being the Greeks, and
*perhaps* the Egyptians).
> Without say, Mars and Mithras being such popular gods (and
> without a culture orientated towards war and creating war god cults--this
> works vice versa), Rome would never have conquered most of Europe.
I strongly disagree. The Romans thought they were spreading civilisation
across the world.
Naturally, there were other, baser reasons for their conquests (at least
for the common soldier) - but religion did not drive them. And even if
it did - thank god. We wouldn't be here now, if it weren't for the
Romans. People often look upon the likes of Caesar and Augustus as
tyrants. I look upon them as the fathers of our own civilisation.
Without them, we'd not even exist.
> Without
> a religion/ideology that separates the spirit from the world and promises
> eternal bliss for its deities' faithful warriors, wars would be quite rare
> indeed...
Not at all. The Roman soldiers fought both for Rome and for riches. Not
simply their Gods.
Also, look at WW2. The allies faught not for eternal bliss, but to save
their families from tyranny. The Nazis also fought for 'glory', not God.
Paul
Paul
Whyzat?
Paul
Paul
The Eighth Doctor wrote:
> Errrr, YES! If it wasn't for the Germans and Japs alliance, the USA would
> never have come to Europe to aid Britain, HENCE I would vbe typing *this* in
> effing GERMAN!!!
The British would NEVER have surrendered to the Germans under any
circumstances. We'd have fought to the last.
Paul
Auntie Krizu
"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3C8ADCD4...@eidosnet.co.uk...
>
>
> Auntie Krizu wrote:
>
> > Actually, it wasn't that harmless. Rome was very much a warrior
nation with
> > warrior laws and warrior orientations in its religion(s).
>
> True, but the religion didn't really influence the brutality. Rome
was
> the most civilised nation on earth (the exception being the Greeks,
and
> *perhaps* the Egyptians).
HA! HA! HA! All of the three were *slave* nations. Calling any place
with slavery of other human beings "civilization" is mad. The
"civilization" was reserved to "free men". In Greece women and slaves
couldn't vote. The Greek cultures were warrior nations as well,
constantly fighting. The myth of classical Greece being
oh-so-civilized just because they produced some fine philosophers and
writers and nifty buildings doesn't mean they weren't inhumanly
brutal. The Iliad is a war epic, no matter how it's touted as the
first great epic of European literature. Stories of war, and the
spoils of war, which are women and children and slaves as *property*.
The laws in Athens weren't that different from those of the Taliban!
Examples include the ability of a father to sell her daughter into
slavery if she'd lost her virginity before marriage, the
"gynaikonomoi" (women's police) who made sure women stayed in their
houses and didn't discuss with strange men--one contemporary writer,
Aeschines, *praises* this "enforced chastity" when he hears about an
Athenian father walling up her daughter alive in a deserted house. And
forget the glossing over of the status of slaves in
Athens--Demosthenes verifies that Athenians maintained a public
torture chamber for routine torturings of slaves for "legal purposes",
since a slave's testimony was admissible in court only if given under
torture. Oh, and the nice little object, the "gulp preventer", a
wooden collar that kept a kitchen slave's jaw closed throughout the
day lest he dare eat the food he was preparing for his masters.
Nnnnice. What a lovely and civilized place, Ancient Greece. Don't be
fooled, people, read the actual sources.
> > Without say, Mars and Mithras being such popular gods (and
> > without a culture orientated towards war and creating war god
cults--this
> > works vice versa), Rome would never have conquered most of Europe.
>
> I strongly disagree. The Romans thought they were spreading
civilisation
> across the world.
Yes, they *thought* so. Like the Crusaders who brought Christianity
around Europe with the sword and killed thousands of people. Using
Christianity as an excuse. My point is that behavior like this always
needs a spiritual/ideological background, and the ones in power will
always use myths and legends for their own purposes. Hence, they
create gods of war. Hence, systems of hierarchies. Hence, the
belittling of love and caring for others as "womanly", "sissy" or as
the modern terms go, "peacenik" or "tree-hugger".
> Naturally, there were other, baser reasons for their conquests (at
least
> for the common soldier) - but religion did not drive them.
I'm sure it did, at least in their upbringing. Even today the
"secularized" folks act not too differently from what their cultural
background is. In a mainly Christian country, even some atheists act
according to Judeo-Christian values that have permeated the society
they grew up in, with no idea that those values actually stem from
religious sources. So we could have a person who's not particularily
religious but his or her ideas of "what is proper" s/he has imbibed
from the society around him. It's not many centuries ago that
everybody still had to be a Christian for fear of being burned at the
stake.
> And even if
> it did - thank god. We wouldn't be here now, if it weren't for the
> Romans. People often look upon the likes of Caesar and Augustus as
> tyrants. I look upon them as the fathers of our own civilisation.
> Without them, we'd not even exist.
Oh yes, good things can come from shitty things. I'll give you that.
As I've read this thread I have thought to myself of the little good
things that have surfaced in the aftermath of the most horrible
atoricities. If there hadn't been a Hitler, would we be as conscious
and condemning of racism today? Without Hiroshima, would people be
aware of the horror that is nuclear war? Would my people be less
civilized if the Swedes hadn't conquered Finland in the Middle Ages,
since they built the first universities and schools here? Would I be
speaking Russian now if Finland hadn't aligned with Nazi Germany for a
few months (thank goodness the Nazis buggered off rather quickly) to
stop Russia from invading Finland in WW2? It's actually an
unbelieveable thing that I'm speaking Finnish in an independent
Finland, considering the odds...
> > Without
> > a religion/ideology that separates the spirit from the world and
promises
> > eternal bliss for its deities' faithful warriors, wars would be
quite rare
> > indeed...
>
> Not at all. The Roman soldiers fought both for Rome and for riches.
Not
> simply their Gods.
> Also, look at WW2. The allies faught not for eternal bliss, but to
save
> their families from tyranny. The Nazis also fought for 'glory', not
God.
Nationalism and religion are strongly linked, as are riches. They're
all intertwined. A nation can become a deity, riches can become a
deity, an ideology can become a religion. Nazis had a very peculiar
mixture of the lot. Kirche, Kuche, Kinder (Church, Kitchen, Children)
edicts for the women, some of the churches actually supporting Nazis,
Hiter and his buddies dabbling in occultism and using Germanic pagan
deities and symbols (the swastika) as tools to rouse the masses...
note that I said religion/ideology, not just religion in the classical
sense. Religion (and most ideologies either stem from religion or
become like religions, like Communism and Fascism) permeates the
society on every single level, in a conscious or unconscious way. From
what we eat to what we wear to how we raise our kids to what we watch
on the telly. Whether we want it or not, whether we are religious or
not.
The big challenge is to *change* the myths that the culture tells us
and we tell ourselves. To recognize the *sources* of why this and that
thing happens in this or that society, explore the alternatives
(*really* explore, as I've done with Greek history, resulting in my
criticism of it as a "civilized" nation when it actually had no
respect for human rights) and then come up with *better alternatives*,
even invent new ones if needs be, alternatives that serve us *all*,
not just some little elite groups.
</rant>
Auntie Krizu(:>)
Ian MacAninch
writes:
Aye right. The Channel Islands really proved that didn't they. Sealion wouldn't
have worked because Germany wouldn't have had the resouces. The reason the UK
went on was because Churchill was a wee bit mad himself/ If you'd had Halifax
as PM a deal would probably have been done amounting to a surrender of sorts.
Your above statement is only to keep the likes of football fans and Ulster
Loyalists happy.
Ian MacAninch
Ian MacAninch
writes:
>> >I haven't must look out for that. On the other hand, can I just point
>out
>> >that some fool above suggested ensuring Pearl Harbour never happened.
>> >Thanks a bunch, I'd be typing this in German, wouldn't I....?
>>
>> UND WAS IST LOS MIT DEUTSCH???
>
>there's nothing wrong with the language, though English would be as common
>as Welsh in the 'UK'
Give us a break. Even under Soviet/Russian rule for the same period of time the
Baltic peoples kept their languages. It would take a couple of centuries for
that scenario to happen. Besides Sealion wouldn't have worked anyway and the
only way to get the UK out of the war is for the Government to capitulate and
that doesn't mean occupation.
Ian MacAninch
Ian MacAninch
writes:
>Auntie Krizu wrote:
>
>> Actually, it wasn't that harmless. Rome was very much a warrior nation with
>> warrior laws and warrior orientations in its religion(s).
>
>True, but the religion didn't really influence the brutality. Rome was
>the most civilised nation on earth
Your making me laugh again Paul. Now tell everyone what they did to Carthage?
>> Without say, Mars and Mithras being such popular gods (and
>> without a culture orientated towards war and creating war god cults--this
>> works vice versa), Rome would never have conquered most of Europe.
>
>I strongly disagree. The Romans thought they were spreading civilisation
>across the world.
That'll be why they had Gladiators and animals killing people as entertainment.
You've fallen for the Roman propaganda I see.
>Naturally, there were other, baser reasons for their conquests (at least
>for the common soldier) - but religion did not drive them. And even if
>it did - thank god. We wouldn't be here now, if it weren't for the
>Romans. People often look upon the likes of Caesar and Augustus as
>tyrants. I look upon them as the fathers of our own civilisation.
>Without them, we'd not even exist.
And ironically without Christianity you wouldn't exist either Paul. You do know
what butterflies are in alternate history?
>> Without
>> a religion/ideology that separates the spirit from the world and promises
>> eternal bliss for its deities' faithful warriors, wars would be quite rare
>> indeed...
>
>Not at all. The Roman soldiers fought both for Rome and for riches. Not
>simply their Gods.
In which case "Rome" was the belief system instead of a religion.
Ian MacAninch
Ian MacAninch
writes:
The Nazis invaded in June. Are you an Australian?
Ian MacAninch