Big plot hole in End of Time part 2?
The phantom flufflemoo
the planet so how did the Lord President manage to throw a diamond out
into space?
The Phantom Flufflemoo
Ignis Fatuus
Actually that was the crux of the master story and the drumbeat - so
if you missed it you must have been too distracted to be watching
closely.
Never mind. It'll keep for the next time around.
The phantom flufflemoo
Someone mentioned it over on AICN Doctor Who thread. I didn't think
about the diamond and the time lock. I just watched the show and
didn't think about it. The plot was a bit hard to follow!
The Phantom Flufflemoo
Fleeced
"Ignis Fatuus" wrote:
> The phantom flufflemoo wrote:
>
>>Gallifrey is in a time lock. Nothing can enter and nothing can escape
>>the planet so how did the Lord President manage to throw a diamond out
>>into space?
>>
>>The Phantom Flufflemoo
>
> Actually that was the crux of the master story and the drumbeat - so
> if you missed it you must have been too distracted to be watching
> closely.
>
> Never mind. It'll keep for the next time around.
Not really... they couldn't get back physically, because the signal
(apparently) wasn't enough. They "sent something small" but that in
itself was a furphy - since that was something physical/timelocked.
So whilst it was kind of addressed in the episode, it was somewhat
illogicial, inconsistent and frankly silly - so much so, that only a
fanwanker would accept it that easily. So, it's not a matter of
"The phantom flufflemoo" not paying attention - but rather that
he (she?) actually THINKS for themself.
Cheers,
Fleeced
Ignis Fatuus
<bo...@myself.com> wrote:
>On 3 Jan, 15:05, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 06:59:24 -0800 (PST), The phantom flufflemoo
>>
>> <bo...@myself.com> wrote:
>> >Gallifrey is in a time lock. Nothing can enter and nothing can escape
>> >the planet so how did the Lord President manage to throw a diamond out
>> >into space?
>>
>> >The Phantom Flufflemoo
>>
>> Actually that was the crux of the master story and the drumbeat - so
>> if you missed it you must have been too distracted to be watching
>> closely.
>>
>> Never mind. It'll keep for the next time around.
>
>Someone mentioned it over on AICN Doctor Who thread. I didn't think
>about the diamond and the time lock. I just watched the show and
>didn't think about it. The plot was a bit hard to follow!
>
>The Phantom Flufflemoo
When the ranting settles down over the blowsy bits I'm sure the
detractors will find more meat on the bone than they first gave credit
for. The stunts and technobabble aren't really the point of the story
(The Master could just as well have thrown rocks at the Doc instead of
thunderbolts); but the character side is a lot better developed than
in RTD's earlier showpieces.
It's one I can watch over and over again.
Ignis Fatuus
You seem to have missed the loopback. Rassilon deliberately damaged
the Master to create a link that he could use on such an occasion.
It's no sillier than regeneration, the biological metacrisis, or any
other plot devices - and it's squarely targeted at character
development which makes it far less silly than a lot of the 'aliens
taking possession of human bodies' plots.
Ryan P.
I hope you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek here! It really did make
little sense... If they could shoot objects and send thoughts to the
past through the Time Vortex, you would think it would have been a much
simpler plan to send something back to stop Davros from creating the
Daleks in the first place.
Monsieur Tabernac
Also, in "The Stolen Earth", Dalek Cohen (sic) had little trouble
using his emergency temporal shift to fly into the locked Time War and
rescue Davros. This time war is not quite as locked as it would
appear.
Fleeced
"Ignis Fatuus" wrote:
> You seem to have missed the loopback. Rassilon deliberately damaged
> the Master to create a link that he could use on such an occasion.
Not at all... you seem to have missed the OP's actual question.
The signal to the Master worked because he was there before the
timelock but was presently outside (this was even clarified by
Wilfred in discussion with the Doctor). The diamond was
timelocked - and by the logic of the show, should not have been
able to get to Earth (unless the signal by itself was enough, in which
case the diamond wasn't needed in the first place... so it wasn't even
a plot device)
> It's no sillier than regeneration, the biological metacrisis, or any
> other plot devices
Yes, it is - because it's internally inconsistent.
> and it's squarely targeted at character
> development which makes it far less silly than a lot of the 'aliens
> taking possession of human bodies' plots.
In other words: It was a plot device with a purpose, so it was less
crappy than the other crap...
Hell, I'm a sci-fi junkie, and a big Doctor Who fan - I'll be watching
future eps regardless... but this one was dumb - and worse - logically
inconsistent. I can suspend disbelief for a lot of things - but I at least
need internal consistency.
Cheers,
Fleeced
Ignis Fatuus
WARNING MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD.
STOP... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
There was no mention of it being 'locked' in Stolen Earth. Perhaps
Davros was rescued before the lock was activated. In any case Rose was
'locked' behind the rift and she kept popping through for tea. From
the TL point of view all this took place at the moment the war was in
the process of being 'locked'. It was their last bid for freedom
To send something 'back' Rassilon needed a 'link' - and The Master was
his chosen Pawn. The Master's whereabouts (and the gate) were
irrelevant to this - and it was just his misfortune that The Doctor
was there as well.
Of course this is just the technobabble which sets the stage for a
stunning denouement. The Time Lords manifest themselves at the
Master's end of the link - with the injured Doctor in the middle. The
Master is triumphant and prepared to absorb the Time Lords but
Rassilon created The Master and his power defuses the Master's plans.
The Doctor can see what's really happening and confronts the Master
with his stupidity - but the Master, now submissive, begs to be taken
into the fold. Rassilon's arrogance has sealed his fate as he rejects
the creation he despises - and the Doctor takes aim with Wilf's
service revolver.
This is no longer the world of reality - but the mindscape of the
protagonists each awaiting a decisive move. Rassilon is still caught
up in a symbolic link - and needs the will of his puppet to draw him
through. The Doctor stands between the two with the power to sever the
connection - but without the will to commit murder or genocide. The
Lady convinces him with a look (could she be his Mother?) He fires at
Rassilon... He fires at the Master - but the gun is merely a symbol
and the moment is not yet decided. He shouts at the Master to stand
aside and fires at the crystal - and now the gun goes off.
Rassilon, Thwarted, still has the power to claim the Doctor's life...
and the Master now orders him to stand aside. In Rassilon's scorn he's
seen the futility of his life, and now he stands between the Doctor
and Rassilon's revenge.
It's very Wagnerian - but that scene alone was worth the price of
admission - and who cares about the creaky old mechanics... BUT
THE BEST IS YET TO COME as Wilf inadvertently fulfils the prophesy and
knocks four times to be released from the radiation chamber. The
Doctor's fate is sealed by his friend... and the anguish of both men
is real as they bring the story to a shattering ironic climax.
Personally I think you're just cross because RTD has dared to meddle
with the sacred time lord mythology - but then it should never have
been there in the first place; and what's good for the gooose...
Ignis Fatuus
<mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
WARNING MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD.
The Doctor
All right how was that image of the MAster's Earth generated?
--
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The Doctor
The Doctor
The Doctor
Is this Rassilon the original or another Time Lord
who dare balsphemes Rassilon?
The Doctor
F�achad�ir
<fle...@antispam.fleecedatmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Ignis Fatuus" wrote:
>
>> You seem to have missed the loopback. Rassilon deliberately damaged
>> the Master to create a link that he could use on such an occasion.
>
>Not at all... you seem to have missed the OP's actual question.
>
>The signal to the Master worked because he was there before the
>timelock but was presently outside (this was even clarified by
>Wilfred in discussion with the Doctor). The diamond was
>timelocked - and by the logic of the show, should not have been
>able to get to Earth (unless the signal by itself was enough, in which
>case the diamond wasn't needed in the first place... so it wasn't even
>a plot device)
The in-story handwave there was that the drumbeat in the Master's head
was enough to get a signal back into the timelock, but not enough of a
signal to allow the Time Lords out. But the drumbeat was powerful
enough to allow the diamond to home in on it, and the diamond in turn
amplified the signal to allow Gallifrey to return. The diamond was
needed to complete the bootstrap. Timey-wimey.
>> It's no sillier than regeneration, the biological metacrisis, or any
>> other plot devices
>
>Yes, it is - because it's internally inconsistent.
>
>> and it's squarely targeted at character
>> development which makes it far less silly than a lot of the 'aliens
>> taking possession of human bodies' plots.
>
>In other words: It was a plot device with a purpose, so it was less
>crappy than the other crap...
>
>Hell, I'm a sci-fi junkie, and a big Doctor Who fan - I'll be watching
>future eps regardless... but this one was dumb - and worse - logically
>inconsistent. I can suspend disbelief for a lot of things - but I at least
>need internal consistency.
>
>Cheers,
>Fleeced
--
'Donegal: Up Here It's Different'
� F�achad�ir
TedKord
> STOP... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
>
> There was no mention of it being 'locked' in Stolen Earth. Perhaps
> Davros was rescued before the lock was activated.
Um, yeah, there was. The Doctor specifically mentioned that the entire
Time War was time locked, so it was impossible for Dalek Kahn to have
flown back into it. Breaching the time lock was implied to have driven
it insane at that time.
Fred
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 03:02:52 +1100, "Fleeced"
>
>
>
>
>
> <flee...@antispam.fleecedatmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Ignis Fatuus" wrote:
>
> >> You seem to have missed the loopback. Rassilon deliberately damaged
> >> the Master to create a link that he could use on such an occasion.
>
> >Not at all... you seem to have missed the OP's actual question.
>
> >The signal to the Master worked because he was there before the
> >timelock but was presently outside (this was even clarified by
> >Wilfred in discussion with the Doctor). The diamond was
> >timelocked - and by the logic of the show, should not have been
> >able to get to Earth (unless the signal by itself was enough, in which
> >case the diamond wasn't needed in the first place... so it wasn't even
> >a plot device)
>
> The in-story handwave there was that the drumbeat in the Master's head
> was enough to get a signal back into the timelock, but not enough of a
> signal to allow the Time Lords out. But the drumbeat was powerful
> enough to allow the diamond to home in on it, and the diamond in turn
> amplified the signal to allow Gallifrey to return. The diamond was
> needed to complete the bootstrap. Timey-wimey.
But if the Time War is time-locked, then the Time Lords shouldn't be
able to plant the drumbeat into the Master's head, as he looked into
the time vortex as a boy before the Time War started. If signals are
allowed in and out of a time lock, it doesn't seem like much of a time
lock to me.
Andrew
As I understood it the Council of the Timelords depicted in the episode
took place "before" the Doctor sealed the timelock. In response to the
prophecy they took the actions they did - implanting the drumbeat in
the Master's mind in their past and casting the diamond into the
Master's future.
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
No mention of time locks. The Doctor thought Davros destroyed in the
very first year of the time war at the Gates of Elysium. In Journey's
End it's explained that he was driven insane (like The Master) by
seeing all of time.
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gates_of_Elysium
The Gates of Elysium was the location where the Doctor believed Davros
had been killed when his command ship flew into the jaws of the
Nightmare Child. This was during the first year of the Last Great Time
War. The Doctor attempted to save Davros but failed. (DW: The Stolen
Earth)
However, Dalek Caan was able to save Davros from being killed at
Elysium by initiating an emergency temporal shift after an encounter
with the Doctor. (DW: Evolution of the Daleks)
The shift allowed Caan to arrive just before Davros died and take him
to another point in time and space. Dalek Caan lost his sanity as a
result of interfering with the Time War, every detail of which is time
locked. By saving Davros, Caan had ensured the creation of the New
Dalek Empire. (DW: The Stolen Earth)
Ross
No, the time lords quite clearly were *violating* the timelock. They
mention the fact that they're intentionally creating a powerful
paradox. The reason they're able to do it is because it had, in
effect, "already been done". The Master'd heard that drumbeat since
he was a child. Because the time lords here are at their most powerful
and their least principled, they violated the laws of time: the effect
(the Master receiving the signal) had already happened, which gave
them an "out" against the time lock -- they could cross the master's
own time stream to provide a cause for the drums, since the effect was
outside of the time loop. That drumbeat was a persistent signal that
connected the time period where the time lords were, within the time
lock, to whever the master was in time and space -- in spite of both
the time lock, and the fact that this violated the normal rule about
time travelers always meeting each other in sequence (Which seems to
be necessary in order to avoid crossing your own timeline -- we've
seen that if you do that, the consequences can involve flying killer
time monkeys, but that this can be overcome with the full might of the
Time Lords)
Once the Master had amplified the signal a few billion times, the link
forged by the drumbeat between the two time periods was strong enough
to send something physical.
Ignis Fatuus
Nobody seems to have mentioned that line about The Doctor possessing
The Moment.
'He still possesses the moment - and he'll use it to destroy Daleks
and Time Lords alike'
.
To me this suggests that the Time Lord side of the story is taking
place as the lock is being closed. Of course the Doctor and Master
side of the story takes place on contemporary Earth; but that's in the
distant past relative to the Time Lord 'present'.
Ross
It's hard to draw much from that, because it's so short. I don't draw
the same conclusion that this is "before" the time lock is
established, but part of this is because I'm reluctant to use terms
like 'before" or "after" loosely in conjunction with the time war. I
don't think it makes sense to think in terms of there being a "before"
the lock, when they could have left the time war, and an "after", when
they were trapped. I'm inclined to think of the time lock not as
something that was intentionally established to seal off the time war,
but more of something that arose naturally as a result of the
paradoxes and damage to time done by the war -- a sort of horizon
caused by the various personal timelines of the combatants.
What I found interesting, though, is that this is the only time that
anyone's spoken of what the Doctor did to end the Time War without
using language about "burning" -- every other time it's come up, what
the doctor did is likened to an inferno. Gallifrey *burned*, the
Daleks *burned*, the Master ran away when confronted by a *crucible*.
This is the first term we've been given that isn't related to this
motif.
TB
The Doctor
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bru...@topmail.co.nz
> Is this Rassilon the original or another Time Lord
> who dare balsphemes Rassilon?
>
Johnnies)
Mike McKeown
as a warrior for the Time War.
--
There are honest but deluded Creationists, and there are educated and
informed Creationists. The intersection of these two is a null set.
The Doctor
><bru...@topmail.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Monday, January 4, 2010 2:54:15 AM UTC+8, The Doctor wrote:
>>
>>> Is this Rassilon the original or another Time Lord
>>> who dare balsphemes Rassilon?
>>>
>> Could be like Pope John 23 (although there were only about a dozen Pope
>> Johnnies)
>
>I assumed that, as explicitly stated for the Master, they resurrected him
>as a warrior for the Time War.
>
>--
>There are honest but deluded Creationists, and there are educated and
>informed Creationists. The intersection of these two is a null set.
TB
> In article <1986325454440414798.0...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Mike McKeown <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote:
> ><bru...@topmail.co.nz> wrote:
> >> On Monday, January 4, 2010 2:54:15 AM UTC+8, The Doctor wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is this Rassilon the original or another Time Lord
> >>> who dare balsphemes Rassilon?
> >>>
> >> Could be like Pope John 23 (although there were only about a dozen Pope
> >> Johnnies)
> >
> >I assumed that, as explicitly stated for the Master, they resurrected him
> >as a warrior for the Time War.
> >
>
> That is what RTD wants us to believe.