The Dying Days - comments and questions

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Matthew J Newton

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May 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/1/97
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Here be spoilers...

Just finished reading The Dying Days, which I greatly enjoyed. In
particular I thought that the early parts of the book were very
successful in creating a Britain that was recognisably Britain of
today (well, next week), but still consistent with the DW universe.

And I loved the Emma Thompson joke.

However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this
very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
why? Or was this a bluff in order to make us think that the Doctor
really had been killed? (And I must say that it did have me thinking -
I was fairly confident that if the Doctor was going to be killed off
it would have been a bit more spectacular, but I still had doubts).

More minor points:
- In the garden of the Doctor's house is a statue of a girl that had
not always been a statue. Presumably this is a reference to something,
but I can't place it. Any help?
- The Brigadier states that he worrked with the 8th Doctor when they
were involved in the Embodiment of Gris. This sounds familiar - is
this a reference to something?

Regards, Matthew.


Matthew J Newton, Dorchester, Dorset, UK.
Homepage at http://www.mjnewton.demon.co.uk

"Logic is merely a way of being wrong with authority."


Michael Lee

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May 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/1/97
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Matthew J Newton <mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<3368d5e...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>
> Here be spoilers...


There really are spoilers here! Don't follow unless you've finished the
book.

> However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this
> very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
> reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
> why? Or was this a bluff in order to make us think that the Doctor
> really had been killed? (And I must say that it did have me thinking -
> I was fairly confident that if the Doctor was going to be killed off
> it would have been a bit more spectacular, but I still had doubts).


Some of it may depend on whether or not The Eight Doctors follows right on
from the TV Movie -- it certainly felt like it was only shortly after the
regeneration to me, and it might be difficult to find a place for "The
Dying Days" to take place.

I was certainly given the impression that "oh, since we know it's the last
one, I can do what I want" -- and, of course, the irony is that The Dying
Days is just about as traditional a Doctor Who story you can get, with the
exception of the James Bond ending.

I nearly bought that the Doctor was killed -- "no, there's no way that he's
really dead...he'll show up eventually...will he?" -- but there was more
doubt than I would have had if it had been nearly any other Doctor Who
story.

[I loved the references to Star Trek 10 -- "oh, since they knew it was his
last one, they could do what they wanted 2/3rds of the way through the
book..." That whole scene had me on the floor laughing... lots of fun
jokes like that....]


Michael

Luke Gutzwiller

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May 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/1/97
to

On Thu, 01 May 1997 18:04:05 GMT, mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk
(Matthew J Newton) wrote:

>
>Here be spoilers...
>
>

(snip)


>
>More minor points:
>- In the garden of the Doctor's house is a statue of a girl that had
>not always been a statue. Presumably this is a reference to something,
>but I can't place it. Any help?

I haven't read the book yet, but that girl from "Ghost Light" comes to
mind.

>- The Brigadier states that he worrked with the 8th Doctor when they
>were involved in the Embodiment of Gris. This sounds familiar - is
>this a reference to something?

To "Cold Fusion" actually. Lance Parkin briefly mentions several
times that the Doctor apparently ran into the decaying-corpse Master.
He made a pact with the Embodiment of Gris in a failed attempt to
jump-start a new regeneration cycle, which is also why he was after
the Eye of Harmony and the Source. Lance also mentions an attempt to
rend some constellation apart with a segment of the Key to Time, as
well as the meetings with Omega and Zodin.
--
Toodle pipski!
_______________________________________________________
Luke Gutzwiller <luc...@probe.net>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3612

Phil Hallard

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
to

Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:

:> Here be spoilers...

:> However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this


:> very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
:> reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
:> why? Or was this a bluff in order to make us think that the Doctor
:> really had been killed? (And I must say that it did have me thinking -
:> I was fairly confident that if the Doctor was going to be killed off
:> it would have been a bit more spectacular, but I still had doubts).

Well, obviously the implication was meant to be that the Doctor was going
to be killed off, or (as I believed) regenerated, or that the Brigadier
would die, or whatever - I think it's fair to say Lance gave all the help
he possibly could to these rumours, short of actually confirming any of them.

It's true, though, that in the Doctor Who universe the worldwide political
and cultural situation is going to be very different following the very
obvious "first contact" occurring in a week or so's time. And the BBC
books will have to take this into account, or else not do so and appear
very odd. When Sam first meets an alien in the books, for example, is her
reaction going to be, "Oh my god, it's a real alien, I don't believe it!",
or "H'm. Not nearly as impressive as those Martian guys who invaded
London the other week"?

--
Philip Alexander Hallard BA MPhil
phil.h...@english.ox.ac.uk
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~chri0073/
"And because, in all the Galaxy, they had found nothing more precious than
Mind, they encouraged its dawning everywhere. They became farmers in the
fields of stars..." Arthur C Clarke, the Odyssey Quartet

L J Parkin

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
to

Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:

:> Here be spoilers...

:> However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this
:> very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
:> reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
:> why? Or was this a bluff in order to make us think that the Doctor
:> really had been killed? (And I must say that it did have me thinking -
:> I was fairly confident that if the Doctor was going to be killed off
:> it would have been a bit more spectacular, but I still had doubts).

Spectacular is dull, any old hero can do that. Dying saving a cat that's
got stuck under a shelf takes style!

>Well, obviously the implication was meant to be that the Doctor was going

>to be killed off, or (as I believed) regenerated, or that the Brigadier
>would die, or whatever - I think it's fair to say Lance gave all the help

>he possibly could to these rumours, short of actually confirming any of
them.

Guilty. I didn't *start* any of them, though. I had to help create the
seed
of doubt. Most of the people that emailed me admit they fell for it, and
that 'the return' really affected them. Why kill off the Doctor when you
can
make everyone glad that he's alive?

>It's true, though, that in the Doctor Who universe the worldwide
political
>and cultural situation is going to be very different following the very
>obvious "first contact" occurring in a week or so's time. And the BBC
>books will have to take this into account, or else not do so and appear
>very odd. When Sam first meets an alien in the books, for example, is
her
>reaction going to be, "Oh my god, it's a real alien, I don't believe
it!",
>or "H'm. Not nearly as impressive as those Martian guys who invaded
>London the other week"?

As well as the first contact, the Brigadier's promoted and Benny is
pregnant
with the Doctor's child, so there are 'lasting effects'.

The BBC Books have a loophole - stories set in 1997 ('Vampire Science'
for one) can be set before May without anyone knowing about aliens. So
if Sam doesn't know about the Martians, we can assume she's from the
first half of the year. Or that TDD doesn't take place in the BBC
Bookiverse.

Lance


PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.

PPS: Or was I?

PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.

Patricia and/or Donald Gillikin

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
to

chri...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Phil Hallard) wrote:
>Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>:> Here be spoilers...
>
>
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>:> However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this
>:> very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
>:> reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
>:> why? Or was this a bluff in order to make us think that the Doctor
>:> really had been killed? (And I must say that it did have me thinking -
>:> I was fairly confident that if the Doctor was going to be killed off
>:> it would have been a bit more spectacular, but I still had doubts).
>
>Well, obviously the implication was meant to be that the Doctor was going
>to be killed off, or (as I believed) regenerated, or that the Brigadier
>would die, or whatever - I think it's fair to say Lance gave all the help
>he possibly could to these rumours, short of actually confirming any of them.
>
>It's true, though, that in the Doctor Who universe the worldwide political
>and cultural situation is going to be very different following the very
>obvious "first contact" occurring in a week or so's time. And the BBC
>books will have to take this into account, or else not do so and appear
>very odd. When Sam first meets an alien in the books, for example, is her
>reaction going to be, "Oh my god, it's a real alien, I don't believe it!",
>or "H'm. Not nearly as impressive as those Martian guys who invaded
>London the other week"?
>


Unless, of course, she joins the Doctor prior to the early to mid May of
1997 in her timeline. Does anyone know when Uncle Terrance sets Sam's
meeting with the Doctor? :-)

-Donald
--
"Yes, let me guess. My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I
never answer letters and you don't like my tie."
The Doctor, "Ghost Light"

ch...@patient.u-net.com

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
to

On 8 May 1997 16:35:47 GMT, ljpa...@aol.com (L J Parkin) wrote:

>Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
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>[snip to this bit]


>
>PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.
>
>
>PPS: Or was I?
>
>
>PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.


:-P
--
Meanwhile, a trap was being laid for Gharman.

Andrew Wong

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May 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/9/97
to

On 8 May 1997 16:35:47 GMT, ljpa...@aol.com (L J Parkin) wrote:

> :> Here be spoilers...

>
> As well as the first contact, the Brigadier's promoted and Benny is
> pregnant with the Doctor's child, so there are 'lasting effects'.

> PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.


>
> PPS: Or was I?
>
> PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.

Now what's to stop the theory that Benny becomes pregnant, creates a
half-human child who, because being half-human and half-Gallifreyan, has
amazing powers, goes back in time and ends up being some Other person...

Of course, this assumes that Benny and the Doctor did you-know-what towards
the end. For all we know, the bed could have in fact been the Master's
TARDIS, and they could have set off on a whole new series of Newer
Adventures.

Andrew

Andrew Wong E-mail: and...@bookpages.co.uk
Web Developer for Bookpages Tel: +44 (0) 1753 891 662
Bookpages - Britain's best Internet bookstore
http://www.bookpages.co.uk

Michael J. Jones

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May 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/9/97
to

L J Parkin <ljpa...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970508163...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

> Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> :> Here be spoilers...
>
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> As well as the first contact, the Brigadier's promoted and Benny is
> pregnant
> with the Doctor's child, so there are 'lasting effects'.
> PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.
> PPS: Or was I?
> PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.


You are an Evil, EVIL, man. ;)

Don't stop.

-Michael

TestTest

unread,
May 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/9/97
to

On 8 May 1997 16:35:47 GMT, ljpa...@aol.com (L J Parkin) wrote:

>Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>:> Here be spoilers...
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>:> However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this
>:> very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
>:> reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
>:> why? Or was this a bluff in order to make us think that the Doctor
>:> really had been killed? (And I must say that it did have me thinking -
>:> I was fairly confident that if the Doctor was going to be killed off
>:> it would have been a bit more spectacular, but I still had doubts).
>

>Spectacular is dull, any old hero can do that. Dying saving a cat that's
>got stuck under a shelf takes style!
>

>>Well, obviously the implication was meant to be that the Doctor was going
>
>>to be killed off, or (as I believed) regenerated, or that the Brigadier
>>would die, or whatever - I think it's fair to say Lance gave all the help
>
>>he possibly could to these rumours, short of actually confirming any of
>them.
>

>Guilty. I didn't *start* any of them, though. I had to help create the
>seed
>of doubt. Most of the people that emailed me admit they fell for it, and
>that 'the return' really affected them. Why kill off the Doctor when you
>can
>make everyone glad that he's alive?
>

>>It's true, though, that in the Doctor Who universe the worldwide
>political
>>and cultural situation is going to be very different following the very
>>obvious "first contact" occurring in a week or so's time. And the BBC
>>books will have to take this into account, or else not do so and appear
>>very odd. When Sam first meets an alien in the books, for example, is
>her
>>reaction going to be, "Oh my god, it's a real alien, I don't believe
>it!",
>>or "H'm. Not nearly as impressive as those Martian guys who invaded
>>London the other week"?
>

>As well as the first contact, the Brigadier's promoted and Benny is
>pregnant
>with the Doctor's child, so there are 'lasting effects'.
>

>The BBC Books have a loophole - stories set in 1997 ('Vampire Science'
>for one) can be set before May without anyone knowing about aliens. So
>if Sam doesn't know about the Martians, we can assume she's from the
>first half of the year. Or that TDD doesn't take place in the BBC
>Bookiverse.
>
>Lance
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>PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.
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>PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.

Well,well,well.You weren't joking about the size of your ego,were
you,Mr. Parkin?All the time I've been criitisizing Eternity Weeps,The
Dying Days and The Well-Mannered War,I've been half expecting you or
one of your personality-cultists (like Daniel Ben-Zvi) to accuse me of
a personal vendetta against you.It wouldn't have been true,but if I'd
only started posting now,after reading this,it just might.It looks as
though you've started beleiving your admirers' publicity about you,and
thinking you really are the Embodiment of Gris you seem so fascinated
by,or some other cosmic entity above we mere mortals.
I'd wondered if you'd really been so presumptious as to have Benny and
the Doctor actually have sex at the end of that ambiguous chapter,
going much further than the telemovie in breaking with tradition and
alienating Gay and Lesbian fans and fans like me who simply beleive
the sex should stop with the companions.Now I know.
This typefies the "we've lost the license,so screw continuity,it's not
our problem anymore,let's indulge in some grandiose and self-indulgent
gestures" mentality that I firmly beleive gripped you,Gareth Roberts,
Rebecca Levene and the rest of your little clique at Virgin,whether
you admit it-or realise it-or not.
I wonder,Mr. Parkin,if it even occured to you lot that these jolly
hi-jinks for you are offensive and even hurtful to other fans.
I'm bloody positive it never occured to all of you (and Richard
Branson?) to simply let go of Doctor Who with dignity after the BBC's
greedy gesture and show yourselves to be better people than them-after
all,you aren't,are you?
Arguably,you have a right to not care about causing the BBC continuity
problems,as you hardly owe them anything after how they treated you.
But you're causing continuity problems-or should that be nightmares ?-
for fandom too,and what did we ever do to you?Indeed,we made you.And
this is your idea of gratitude?
You've understated the problems you've caused the BBC and fandom.What
if the BBC want to introduce another new companion in addition to-or
to replace-Sam in,say,1998?And have him or her follow tradition by not
being familiar with aliens until his or her first adventure in which
he or she joins the Doctor?This will contradict The Dying Days and the
Doctor-less NAs which follow on from it and force fans to choose
between them and the BBC books for canonicity.
Well,I know which choice I'm making.


Jon Plotz,via Cyberia Cafe.

Oh,and Daniel Ben-Zvi,if you want to flame me for this,kindly use
civil language,and I'll do the same.

Stephen G

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May 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/9/97
to


On 8 May 1997, Phil Hallard wrote:

> Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> :> Here be spoilers...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
> :> However, I remember when Lance first announced The Dying Days on this
> :> very newsgroup last year he implied that it would be difficult to
> :> reconcile it with the forthcoming BBC books. Just a simple question -
>

> It's true, though, that in the Doctor Who universe the worldwide political
> and cultural situation is going to be very different following the very
> obvious "first contact" occurring in a week or so's time. And the BBC
> books will have to take this into account, or else not do so and appear
> very odd. When Sam first meets an alien in the books, for example, is her
> reaction going to be, "Oh my god, it's a real alien, I don't believe it!",
> or "H'm. Not nearly as impressive as those Martian guys who invaded
> London the other week"?

But wasn't Earth on the verge of 1st contact in Happy Endings (set in
2010)? Anyway, Earth was totally unaffected by first contact back in the
70's during Ambassadors of Death. My guess is that after first contact is
made, it doesn't get followed up or announced to the general public.
Also, remember the 7th Doctors comments to Ace in Remembrance, humans have
an innate ability to forget things.
As I haven't read Dying days, all comments above could be completely
misguided.

Stephen Gray - sigless & trying to get away from revision


Dave Roy

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May 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/10/97
to

On Fri, 09 May 1997 21:33:01 GMT, cybe...@easynet.co.uk (TestTest)
wrote:

>On 8 May 1997 16:35:47 GMT, ljpa...@aol.com (L J Parkin) wrote:
>
>>Matthew J Newton (mat...@mjnewton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>>
>>:> Here be spoilers...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>

>>>or "H'm. Not nearly as impressive as those Martian guys who invaded


>>>London the other week"?
>>
>>As well as the first contact, the Brigadier's promoted and Benny is
>>pregnant
>>with the Doctor's child, so there are 'lasting effects'.
>>
>>The BBC Books have a loophole - stories set in 1997 ('Vampire Science'
>>for one) can be set before May without anyone knowing about aliens. So
>>if Sam doesn't know about the Martians, we can assume she's from the
>>first half of the year. Or that TDD doesn't take place in the BBC
>>Bookiverse.
>>
>>Lance

>>PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.

>>PPS: Or was I?

>>PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.

>Well,well,well.You weren't joking about the size of your ego,were
>you,Mr. Parkin?All the time I've been criitisizing Eternity Weeps,The
>Dying Days and The Well-Mannered War,I've been half expecting you or
>one of your personality-cultists (like Daniel Ben-Zvi) to accuse me of
>a personal vendetta against you.It wouldn't have been true,but if I'd
>only started posting now,after reading this,it just might.It looks as
>though you've started beleiving your admirers' publicity about you,and
>thinking you really are the Embodiment of Gris you seem so fascinated
>by,or some other cosmic entity above we mere mortals.

Did you read the same post I did?

>I'd wondered if you'd really been so presumptious as to have Benny and
>the Doctor actually have sex at the end of that ambiguous chapter,
>going much further than the telemovie in breaking with tradition and
>alienating Gay and Lesbian fans and fans like me who simply beleive
>the sex should stop with the companions.Now I know.

Somebody needs to get a sense of humor.

[snip]

>Arguably,you have a right to not care about causing the BBC continuity
>problems,as you hardly owe them anything after how they treated you.
>But you're causing continuity problems-or should that be nightmares ?-
>for fandom too,and what did we ever do to you?Indeed,we made you.And
>this is your idea of gratitude?

What the heck are you talking about? How is continuity messed up from
Well Mannered War? Personally, I'll just assume they got out of the
fix, just like they get out of every other fix. I don't need to know
how.

As for Dying Days, I don't see any continuity being messed up.
Lance's "Benny's pregnant" statement was obviously a joke, so if you
want to assume she and the Doctor didn't have sex, then you can.
That's why it's *ambiguous*. You can take it however you want! And
since it will never be referred to again, you will never need to know
for sure. Ok, I'll give you the "alien invasion," but I still don't
see why you're getting so worked up about it.

>You've understated the problems you've caused the BBC and fandom.What
>if the BBC want to introduce another new companion in addition to-or
>to replace-Sam in,say,1998?And have him or her follow tradition by not
>being familiar with aliens until his or her first adventure in which
>he or she joins the Doctor?This will contradict The Dying Days and the
>Doctor-less NAs which follow on from it and force fans to choose
>between them and the BBC books for canonicity.
>Well,I know which choice I'm making.

And you're free to make that choice. I think you're overreacting.
Even if the BBC directly contradicts this and I have to declare Dying
Days uncanon for my personal canon, I will still have the pleasure of
having read a wonderful book.

Dave Roy


Daniel Ben-Zvi

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May 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/10/97
to

On Fri, 09 May 1997 21:33:01 GMT, cybe...@easynet.co.uk (TestTest)
wrote:


I was wondering where you'd got to, Monsieur Plotz....


>Well,well,well.You weren't joking about the size of your ego,were
>you,Mr. Parkin?

Oooh, what a *nice* note to start an unprovoked flame on...

All the time I've been criitisizing Eternity Weeps,The
>Dying Days and The Well-Mannered War,I've been half expecting you or
>one of your personality-cultists (like Daniel Ben-Zvi)

Personality-cultist? I'm a personality cultist?! *I'M* a personality
cultist?! (Sorry, was channeling Daffy Duck there for a moment). To
quote old Daffy again: Ha ha, ho ho, it is to laugh.....

to accuse me of
>a personal vendetta against you.

No, I was never working under the assumption that you had anything
personal against Lance because you'd only ever discussed his *work*,
not him personally. Now, however, I'm beginning to wonder.

It wouldn't have been true,but if I'd
>only started posting now,after reading this,it just might.

You words, not mine......

It looks as
>though you've started beleiving your admirers' publicity about you

Proof of this please?

,and
>thinking you really are the Embodiment of Gris you seem so fascinated
>by,or some other cosmic entity above we mere mortals.

You're getting you knickers in a twist over an *in-joke*?! *One*
throwaway reference to a throwaway reference in Cold Fusion?! Whoa.
And as for this belief of yours that Lance is a rampant egomaniac,
exactly *where* are you getting this from?

>I'd wondered if you'd really been so presumptious as to have Benny and
>the Doctor actually have sex at the end of that ambiguous chapter,

It is ambiguous. Lance is *kidding* about Bernice being pregnant.
Just like he was about not denying the rumors that the Doctor would
die in Dying Days.

>going much further than the telemovie in breaking with tradition

Ah, but he didn't, did he? There's no kissing and it's left to the
individual reader's imagination whether or not the Doctor and Benny
actually did the deed.

and
>alienating Gay and Lesbian fans

Eh?! Exactly where does *this* bit of logic come from?

and fans like me who simply beleive
>the sex should stop with the companions.

But Lance leaves it *ambiguous*! You're allowed to think whatever you
want! For all we know, The Doctor and Benny proceeded to get into a
pillow fight (a la Set Piece) or started tickling each other!

Now I know.

As I just proved, no you don't, not for sure.

>This typefies the "we've lost the license,so screw continuity,it's not
>our problem anymore,let's indulge in some grandiose and self-indulgent
>gestures"

You know, I really do think you would have figured out by now not to
make inflammatory generalizations without bringing in some *proof* to
back them up?

mentality that I firmly beleive gripped you,Gareth Roberts,
>Rebecca Levene and the rest of your little clique at Virgin,whether
>you admit it-or realise it-or not.

How exactly are they supposed to realize something which isn't true?

>I wonder,Mr. Parkin,if it even occured to you lot that these jolly
>hi-jinks for you are offensive and even hurtful to other fans.

Honestly, I think you're blowing this whole thing entirely out of
perspective.

>I'm bloody positive it never occured to all of you (and Richard
>Branson?) to simply let go of Doctor Who with dignity after the BBC's
>greedy gesture and show yourselves to be better people than them

After the loss of the license, Virgin proceeded to give us some of the
best NA's in the series's entire run (Room, Lungbarrow, Dying Days).
I'd say that's treating Who with tremendous dignity and respect.

-after
>all,you aren't,are you?

Uh, uh, *no*. You have just officially crossed that line. You wanna
discuss the problems you have with the books, *fine*. You wanna make
unprovoked personal attacks, prepare to get turned into charcoal.

>Arguably,you have a right to not care about causing the BBC continuity
>problems,as you hardly owe them anything after how they treated you.
>But you're causing continuity problems-or should that be nightmares ?-
>for fandom too,and what did we ever do to you?

Interesting that you're the only person I've seen have such strong
objections to the book and yet you claim to be speaking for "fandom".
Who else do you know who feels this way?

Indeed,we made you.

Oy vey, this old canard again. IMO, the moment a writer starts self
editing because he's afraid he'll piss people off, he should really
stop writing. The primary consideration of a writer, IMO, should be
to tell good stories. Yes, I object to wholesale continuity
violations (my biggest problem with Eternity Weeps is that 10 percent
of the world's population is murdered, it feels like an afterthought,
and NA continuity only allows a short amount of time for Earth to
recover). But you've supplied no evidence that something of this
magnitude happens in The Dying Days.

And
>this is your idea of gratitude?

Why don't we just have you draft up a list of Plotz's rules for
writers to follow just so you don't get angry?

>You've understated the problems you've caused the BBC and fandom.What
>if the BBC want to introduce another new companion in addition to-or
>to replace-Sam in,say,1998?

A replacement isn't really likely. Maybe an additonal companion. But
I digress. Go on....

And have him or her follow tradition by not
>being familiar with aliens until his or her first adventure in which
>he or she joins the Doctor?This will contradict The Dying Days

Not really. The end of The Dying Days makes clear that there's a
disinformation campaign already beginning to spread regarding the
Martian invasion. Hey, in Rememberance Of The Daleks, Ace knew
nothing about the Yeti invasion of London or the Zygon activity in
Loch Ness and aspects of those stories were very high profile. Does
Rememberance violate continuity as well?

and the
>Doctor-less NAs which follow on from it and force fans to choose
>between them and the BBC books for canonicity.

Umm, Jon, the BBC Books *are* a seperate continuity to the Virgin
books. The Benny Books, for example, are only allowed to refer by
name to characters and concepts which were introduced specifically in
the NA's. Thus, Benny's mother was killed by "aliens" and The People
(from The Also People) have a non-aggression pact with "the higher
powers of the universe". Both of these are from the first Benny Book,
"Oh No It Isn't!" by Paul Cornell.
Accordingly, the BBC Books are prohibited from explicitly referring to
anything that happened during the Virgin run. Which means that, while
they do plan not to actively contradict Virgin continuity, they're
probablt not gonna let it straight jacket them. Hell, Lungbarrow
already set some groundwork for War Of The Daleks!

>Well,I know which choice I'm making.

So do I. *Both*, cash permitting. I think it's really limiting
yourself to choose otherwise.


>Oh,and Daniel Ben-Zvi,if you want to flame me for this,kindly use
>civil language,and I'll do the same.

Howzat?

MNS,
Dan Ben-Zvi

L J Parkin

unread,
May 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/10/97
to

Mr Plotz wrote:

>Well,well,well.You weren't joking about the size of your ego,were
>you,Mr. Parkin?

No. I would never joke about anything so important.

Lance

Alex

unread,
May 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/10/97
to

In article <33738504...@news.easynet.co.uk>, that nice TestTest
<cybe...@easynet.co.uk> said

Take a deep breath and snip

>I'd wondered if you'd really been so presumptious as to have Benny and
>the Doctor actually have sex at the end of that ambiguous chapter,

And again

A big round of applause please!
Let's hear it for ambiguity!

Alex
--------------------------
What are you assuming now?

Nyctolops

unread,
May 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/10/97
to

In article <t+pyACA$NIdz...@chaos-cottage.demon.co.uk>, Alex
<Al...@chaos-cottage.demon.co.uk> writes:

>
>A big round of applause please!
>Let's hear it for ambiguity!

CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! And on for about five minutes.

Nyctolops

Phil Hallard

unread,
May 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/11/97
to

Stephen G (MA...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:


:> On 8 May 1997, Phil Hallard wrote:
:> > :> Here be spoilers...
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> >
:> But wasn't Earth on the verge of 1st contact in Happy Endings (set in


:> 2010)? Anyway, Earth was totally unaffected by first contact back in the
:> 70's during Ambassadors of Death. My guess is that after first contact is
:> made, it doesn't get followed up or announced to the general public.
:> Also, remember the 7th Doctors comments to Ace in Remembrance, humans have
:> an innate ability to forget things.
:> As I haven't read Dying days, all comments above could be completely
:> misguided.

The book does make it pretty clear that this one can't possibly be hushed up.

As for Happy Endings - in fact, if the people in 2010 *recognise* the Ice
Warriors, it could explain their animosity to them being quite so
immediate as it is.

Although the Brigadier is still a Brigadier in Happy Endings.

Oh, and one other continuity thing - the Queen's recoronation after the
coronation of King Xzsnaal I appears to be there to explain the reference
in Christmas on a Rational Planet to the recoronation of Elizabeth II.

But *that* reference was surely there to explain the discontinuity between
the Brigadier's reference to "the King" in 1997 in Battlefield, and the
continued reign of Elizabeth in 2000 in Head Games. Unless I've missed
something, surely Lance has retconned the retcon, leaving the original
anomaly entirely inexplicable...?

L J Parkin

unread,
May 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/12/97
to

>But *that* reference was surely there to explain the discontinuity
between
>the Brigadier's reference to "the King" in 1997 in Battlefield, and the
>continued reign of Elizabeth in 2000 in Head Games. Unless I've missed
>something, surely Lance has retconned the retcon, leaving the original
>anomaly entirely inexplicable...?

Oops.

Lance


Steven McDonald

unread,
May 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/12/97
to

Nyctolops <nyct...@aol.com> wrote
>
> >
> >A big round of applause please!
> >Let's hear it for ambiguity!
>
> CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! And on for about five minutes.

I assume Lance left out the Doctor's comments about the Otherness of the
experience for just that reason.

Well, as it were, I liked THE DYING DAYS and howled with laughter at many
points ... including Benny throwing herself at the Doctor at the end. An
entertaining novel with elements of all the Doctors in it.

Steven McDonald
http://forums.msn.com/jazz
...watch out for EVENT HORIZON this July from TOR Books!

Geoff Weasel

unread,
May 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/13/97
to

In article <19970512163...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,

ljpa...@aol.com (L J Parkin) wrote:

Actually, in Lance's defense, I'd just say Alistair was speaking figuratively.
You know, as in "I don't care if it's the Second Coming, you're STILL not
staying up to watch BLAHBLAHBLAH" (a phrase I was told often as a youth).

Or something.

--- Geoff We@sel
"'History happens,' said the Doctor. 'Even when I'm not around.'
"Only by accident,' said Kadiatu..." (TRANSIT, Ben Aaronovitch)
http://www.iquest.net/~geoffw/

R.J. Smith

unread,
May 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/13/97
to

On 8 May 1997 16:35:47 GMT, ljpa...@aol.com (L J Parkin) wrote:

>> :> Here be spoilers...


Spoilers - beware!

> As well as the first contact, the Brigadier's promoted and Benny is
> pregnant with the Doctor's child, so there are 'lasting effects'.

> PS: Benny isn't pregnant, I was being needlessly provocative.

> PPS: Or was I?

> PPPS: Yes, I was. I'll stop now.

Of course, it probably wouldn't matter that much if she were - by my
reckoning that'd make three times she's gotten pregnant in the NAs and
she seemed to casually shrug off the other two... :-)

- Robert Smith?

Greg McElhatton

unread,
May 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/20/97
to

chri...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Phil Hallard) wrote:

spoilers (tiny ones), ho!


>As for Happy Endings - in fact, if the people in 2010 *recognise* the Ice
>Warriors, it could explain their animosity to them being quite so
>immediate as it is.
>
>Although the Brigadier is still a Brigadier in Happy Endings.
>
>Oh, and one other continuity thing - the Queen's recoronation after the
>coronation of King Xzsnaal I appears to be there to explain the reference
>in Christmas on a Rational Planet to the recoronation of Elizabeth II.
>

>But *that* reference was surely there to explain the discontinuity between
>the Brigadier's reference to "the King" in 1997 in Battlefield, and the
>continued reign of Elizabeth in 2000 in Head Games. Unless I've missed
>something, surely Lance has retconned the retcon, leaving the original
>anomaly entirely inexplicable...?

I prefer the "Yemayan Strikes" theory from SO VILE A SIN, myself...
the Doctor interferes, and history changes.

--
Greg McElhatton * iced...@erols.com
http://members.aol.com/fedhost7/index.html
Charter Member of the Fred the Eternal Snail Fan Club
"And as to the problem with Dominic Riley... eventually, I killed him."
--Christine Spar, GRENDEL #9

TB

unread,
Oct 15, 2015, 2:32:25 PM10/15/15
to
On Sunday, May 11, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Phil Hallard wrote:
> Stephen G (MA...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>
> :> On 8 May 1997, Phil Hallard wrote:
> :> > :> Here be spoilers...
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> >
> :> But wasn't Earth on the verge of 1st contact in Happy Endings (set in
> :> 2010)? Anyway, Earth was totally unaffected by first contact back in the
> :> 70's during Ambassadors of Death. My guess is that after first contact is
> :> made, it doesn't get followed up or announced to the general public.
> :> Also, remember the 7th Doctors comments to Ace in Remembrance, humans have
> :> an innate ability to forget things.
> :> As I haven't read Dying days, all comments above could be completely
> :> misguided.
>
> The book does make it pretty clear that this one can't possibly be hushed up.
>
> As for Happy Endings - in fact, if the people in 2010 *recognise* the Ice
> Warriors, it could explain their animosity to them being quite so
> immediate as it is.
>
> Although the Brigadier is still a Brigadier in Happy Endings.
>
> Oh, and one other continuity thing - the Queen's recoronation after the
> coronation of King Xzsnaal I appears to be there to explain the reference
> in Christmas on a Rational Planet to the recoronation of Elizabeth II.

Why would Prince Charles change his name to "Xzsnaal"?

> But *that* reference was surely there to explain the discontinuity between
> the Brigadier's reference to "the King" in 1997 in Battlefield, and the
> continued reign of Elizabeth in 2000 in Head Games. Unless I've missed
> something, surely Lance has retconned the retcon, leaving the original
> anomaly entirely inexplicable...?

I take it that the author of "Battlefield underestimated Elizabeth's staying power!

TB

unread,
Oct 15, 2015, 2:33:34 PM10/15/15
to
Much to the outrage of the pro-life movement?

Stephen Wilson

unread,
Oct 16, 2015, 1:02:06 PM10/16/15
to

"TB" <tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:8142b5c5-bc46-4108...@googlegroups.com...
Not that I'm aware of, no.


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