Worst Dalek Story
Douglas Edward Geers
IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
stories this one was a real let down.
By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
a real level of menace never again achieved.
Chuck (forced to use his brother's account) Geers
David J. A. Lewis
Revelation was pretty crap, even though the plot had merit, and they'd
obviously spent some money on it. But the real stinker was Destiny,
especially those Dalek catacombs, and Romana....ugh!
--
Dai
Me, not allowed ? But I'm allowed everywhere !
----------------------
I've seen it, and I like it,
Now give me MORE
Jeffery Beuck
Douglas Edward Geers (gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu) wrote:
: IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
You're insane!! This is one of my favorite Dalek stories of all time!
There are so many great lines: "You've squashed my favorite Beatles!"
And that line, where Peter Purves is playing the stupid American on top of
the Empire State Building -- "They ... just ... left!" -- one of my
all-time favorite lines! I'll agree with you about the awful Hartnell
robot, but other than that, a fascinating story. I don't think we
ever again see the Doctor hunted through space and time in the same way.
: By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
: a real level of menace never again achieved.
"Genesis of the Daleks" is far and away the best. Followed by
"Remembrance" and "Resurrection", IMHO.
The worst Dalek story had to be "Death to the Daleks".
--
******************************************************************************
|) The Artist Formerly Known as Jeff
******************************************************************************
Djutmose
I agree, The Chase was bad. The only Doctor Who story I ever fell asleep
viewing . . .. long and BORING.
Lord Rambillon
No, No, No!
I'm at a toss-up between "Death to the Daleks" and "Day of the Daleks".
The latter is interesting only in the time-paradox storyline. In general, the
story is a bit boring and the effects hum-drum compared with other episodes
made around that time.
Now "Death to the Daleks" has THE worst 'dalek-theme' ever! Keystone kops
music! And the Dalek-suicide scene --- SHHEEEESH! How did they EVER get to
be a big threat to the universe? (We have failed to destroy the Thals, the
Doctor has defeated us, we must all commit suicide! EXTERMINATE!)
The city of the Exilons, and the sacrificial-chanting are the episodes ONLY
saving graces!
LORD RAMBILLON of Gallifrey
Raistlin Wakefield
gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Douglas Edward Geers) wrote:
> IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
> There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
> is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
> what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
> stories this one was a real let down.
Total agreement.
> By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
> a real level of menace never again achieved.
My favorite is Remembrance, and it's also my favorite Doctor Who
story, period. The nostalgia, the great lines, the "final"
confrontation between the Doctor and Davros, the little touches, all
of it adds up to a great couple hours of television.
Raistlin
The Macra Terror
gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Douglas Edward Geers) wrote:
>
>
> IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
> There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
> is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
> what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
> stories this one was a real let down.
>
> a real level of menace never again achieved.
I'm not sure on this one myself. I'd probably pick Planet of the
Daleks, which just seems to go on and on and on. At least The Chase had
its multiple settings as a distraction. Second-worst might go to Day,
which despite having an abundance of plot ideas, just seemed to SIT
there.
Micheal Keane
In article <Dt7B1...@cf.ac.uk>, David J. A. Lewis <lewi...@cf.ac.uk> wrote:
>gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Douglas Edward Geers) wrote:
>obviously spent some money on it. But the real stinker was Destiny,
>especially those Dalek catacombs, and Romana....ugh!
I rather liked Destiny. But then again, after all, it was my first story
so it was good enough to get me hooked.
--
Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
Get the Nowhere Man FAQ at my webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia
Petition Fox and tell them you want a DOCTOR WHO series in the Fall!
Join the Church of Last Thursday of Queen Maeve the Cat and be saved!
Martin Nike
: >
: > IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
: > There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
: > is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
: > what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
: > stories this one was a real let down.
: >
: > By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
: > a real level of menace never again achieved.
: > Chuck (forced to use his brother's account) Geers
: >
: Revelation was pretty crap, even though the plot had merit, and they'd
: obviously spent some money on it. But the real stinker was Destiny,
: especially those Dalek catacombs, and Romana....ugh!
I liked Revelation.
Destiny was a low point, although I liked the story. I especially
like the scene where the Dalek sets off and opens up in half before
moving away! This huge gap appears! (I think the same dalek goes
off and knocks over some of the spotlights as the scenery!)
Day is quite good. Very spooky. Death is OK, and Planet isn't
bad. I alwaus found Genesis too boring, and my copy of "The Chase"
is so unwatchable, but the battle with the Mechanoids seemed
OK. The scene on top of the Empire State building (Blue Peter!)
was very daft.
Resurrection's quite entertaining.
--
Martin Nike
Correct Systems Research Group,
Dept. Of Computer Science, University Of Sheffield, England
Peter Wilton
In article <4q7c8g$j...@nw101.infi.net>, Lord Rambillon
<Tar...@Gallifrey.edu> writes
>Now "Death to the Daleks" has THE worst 'dalek-theme' ever! Keystone kops
>music! And the Dalek-suicide scene --- SHHEEEESH! How did they EVER get to
>be a big threat to the universe? (We have failed to destroy the Thals, the
>Doctor has defeated us, we must all commit suicide! EXTERMINATE!)
>The city of the Exilons, and the sacrificial-chanting are the episodes ONLY
>saving graces!
Actually, I have no problem with the music (London Saxophone Quartet).
I also think the first episode is good, with its creepy atmosphere. But
when you come to the explanations behind the mystery, it all gets rather
prosaic. And the Doctor spends a whole episode trying to destroy the
city, only to find that it's the Dalek bomb which restores power!
--
Peter Wilton
Peter Wilton
In article <4q7d21$s...@news.gate.net>, Raistlin Wakefield
<rai...@gate.net> writes
> IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
>> There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
>> is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
>> what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
>> stories this one was a real let down.
I have to say that as a child I found it completely gripping, because of
the sense of the Daleks gradually gaining on the TARDIS travellers.
--
Peter Wilton
Gregory A Welda
--Hey Gang--
I would like to nominate THE FRONTIER IN SPACE. I know it is a stretch,
their inclusion, as well as the conclusion of the story, seems not
compleatly thought out. In addition, the Master, as the Daleks are
leaving for their ship, actually has to guide, with his hands, a Dalek in
the correct direction. The viewer is left with an impression that the
Daleks are no better than the Ogrons.
--Gregory--
--Who insists on being noncommutative--
Keith E. Young
Gregory A Welda (greg...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: --Hey Gang--
It surprises me that no one has nominated "the Dalek's MAsterplan" as
the best Dalek story....is that because no one here has seen it?
GLC
Maybe I should wait until I finish PLANET before voting here, but DEATH is so
completely silly that I can't imaine it being outclassed. Not so much a Doc Who
story as a Looney Tunes cartoon with the Daleks standing in for Wile E. Coyote
COSSABOON ROBERT JAMES
On 18 Jun 1996, Djutmose wrote:
> I agree, The Chase was bad. The only Doctor Who story I ever fell asleep
> viewing . . .. long and BORING.
>
>
This is not true-----even the worst Dalek story was still
interesting, for me at least. Call me an easilly amused mammalian biped,
but I love the stock line (do I have to say it?); it's almost as if each
episode was tailor-made for that specific line.
I liked the sequence in Dracula's castle--or was it Frankenstein's
castle? It's been a year and a half-haven't bought the double taped boxed
set yet.
Agreed, the part where they landed on the planet of the Mechanoids
was a bit of a yawn . . .
Peel
David J. A. Lewis (lewi...@cf.ac.uk) wrote:
: gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Douglas Edward Geers) wrote:
: >
: >
: > There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
: > is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
: > what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
: > stories this one was a real let down.
: > By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
: > a real level of menace never again achieved.
: >
: Revelation was pretty crap, even though the plot had merit, and they'd
: obviously spent some money on it. But the real stinker was Destiny,
: especially those Dalek catacombs, and Romana....ugh!
: --
: Dai
My thoughts exactly. Actually, Terry Nation's original scripts for "The
Chase" are *far* superior to the filmed version (heavily rewritten by
Dennis Spooner). See my novelization of the story to get an idea of what
Terry was attempting with it.
Incidentally, Terry tells me that "Destiny..." was heavily rewritten also.
And "Revelation" bore very little resemblance to the version of the script
that he approved. Don't blame him for what happened!
John Peel
R.J. Smith
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960619...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>,
Gregory A Welda <greg...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>I would like to nominate THE FRONTIER IN SPACE. I know it is a stretch,
>their inclusion, as well as the conclusion of the story, seems not
>compleatly thought out. In addition, the Master, as the Daleks are
>leaving for their ship, actually has to guide, with his hands, a Dalek in
>the correct direction. The viewer is left with an impression that the
>Daleks are no better than the Ogrons.
Nonsense!
The inclusion of the Daleks was *very* thought out. The Production team
indended this to be their version of "The Dalek Masterplan", only slpit
in two so as to keep the surprise (as part of the tenth anniversary
celebreations).
When the Daleks tell the Master that their army is ready, you *know* they
mean it. And you also know that the Master's plan to double cross them
has been thought of.
Frontier in Space Rulz, OK? :-)
- Robert Smith?
Blake
jbe...@Phoenix.kent.edu (Jeffery Beuck) wrote:
>Douglas Edward Geers (gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu) wrote:
>: IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
>You're insane!! This is one of my favorite Dalek stories of all time!
>There are so many great lines: "You've squashed my favorite Beatles!"
>And that line, where Peter Purves is playing the stupid American on top of
>the Empire State Building -- "They ... just ... left!" -- one of my
>all-time favorite lines! I'll agree with you about the awful Hartnell
>robot, but other than that, a fascinating story.
^^^^?
Story? There was no story that I saw in the Chase, only a series of
rather boring set pieces...
> I don't think we
>ever again see the Doctor hunted through space and time in the same way.
Let's hope! Now if he was chased in furtherance of a plot, that would
be a plus!
>: By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
>: a real level of menace never again achieved.
Menace? Perhaps, it's because Genesis was my first Dalek story, but
the prototype Daleks, not knowing what they were on the weapons
testing range was awesome to me in terms of menace...
>"Genesis of the Daleks" is far and away the best. Followed by
>"Remembrance" and "Resurrection", IMHO.
Yes, Genesis is #1, Resurrection, Dalek Invasion of Earth,
Remembrance, Revelation, Day of the, the Daleks, Destiny, Planet,
Chase and last and least Death..
(no longer extant serials omitted)
>The worst Dalek story had to be "Death to the Daleks".
Amen!
Peter Wilton
In article <4q9jat$g...@tombstone.kent.edu>, "Keith E. Young"
<kyo...@Phoenix.kent.edu> writes
>It surprises me that no one has nominated "the Dalek's MAsterplan" as
>the best Dalek story....is that because no one here has seen it?
The problem is that it was so long that, particularly around the
Christmas period, parents kept whisking you away to this or that.
Taking little Peter out to a concert or a play was *not* appreciated
under such circumstances! Missed one of the earlier episodes, and
thereafter was completely baffled by the plot. I sort of got an idea
about the "Time Destructor" at the end. My English teacher said it
should have been "Timer Destroyer"!
--
Peter Wilton
Christopher Chantler
Planet Of The Daleks plods on like a dying donkey in its
eight-foot-square jungle. The Chase transcends 'bad' and enters
'hilarious' territory. Destiny is probably due for re-evaluation, but for
the most part it's uninspiring.
As for the best, well, Genesis probably prevails, then Remembrance,
and Power and Evil both put the intelligence and menace back into the
Daleks (apart from Alpha, Beta and Omega...), who were increasingly being
thrown into the formula as a response to children's letters. That said,
I've only seen two episodes of The Masterplan. Revelation was also great,
though virtually Dalekless. Invasion Of Earth and Dead Planet also boast
supreme atmosphere and solid storytelling, but were slaughtered on the
big screen.
On the whole, the tin boxes have scored many more pluses than minuses.
I'm lukewarm on Day, Death and Resurrection, but they're enjoyable enough
in their own way.
CX(tc)
"Mass exterminations followed by two bacon sandwiches please, Harry."
COSSABOON ROBERT JAMES
On 19 Jun 1996, Keith E. Young wrote:
> Gregory A Welda (greg...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
>
> : --Hey Gang--
>
> : I would like to nominate THE FRONTIER IN SPACE. I know it is a stretch,
> : their inclusion, as well as the conclusion of the story, seems not
> : compleatly thought out. In addition, the Master, as the Daleks are
> : leaving for their ship, actually has to guide, with his hands, a Dalek in
> : the correct direction. The viewer is left with an impression that the
> : Daleks are no better than the Ogrons.
But surely Delgado's performance more than made up for this
shortcoming (yikes! we've had these discussions in the past; let's say
that Delgado's performance, although not masterful [tee-hee], was above
adequate) on the peppershakers' parts.
>
> : --Gregory--
> : --Who insists on being noncommutative--
>
>
> It surprises me that no one has nominated "the Dalek's MAsterplan" as
> the best Dalek story....is that because no one here has seen it?
>
>
Bingo, ringo! When was this ever broadcast? I would love to see
it-is this the one with Patrick Troughton (sp)?
R.J. Smith
In article <4qbrqo$n...@minerva.ukc.ac.uk>,
Christopher Chantler <cj...@ukc.ac.uk> wrote:
>Planet Of The Daleks plods on like a dying donkey in its
>eight-foot-square jungle. The Chase transcends 'bad' and enters
>'hilarious' territory. Destiny is probably due for re-evaluation, but for
>the most part it's uninspiring.
Destiny of course has that wonderful (probably ad-libbed) line from Tom
Baker, when the whole Movellan crew is lying unconscious:
DOCTOR: "I'm going alone. Ask me why"
TYSSAN: "Why?"
DOCTOR: "Because they're unconscious. And besides..."
Well, it's funny when you watch it, anyway...
- Robert Smith?
The Macra Terror
Peter Wilton <pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <4q9jat$g...@tombstone.kent.edu>, "Keith E. Young"
><kyo...@Phoenix.kent.edu> writes
>>the best Dalek story....is that because no one here has seen it?
>
>Christmas period, parents kept whisking you away to this or that.
>Taking little Peter out to a concert or a play was *not* appreciated
>under such circumstances! Missed one of the earlier episodes, and
>thereafter was completely baffled by the plot. I sort of got an idea
>about the "Time Destructor" at the end. My English teacher said it
>should have been "Timer Destroyer"!
So did whoever wrote the copy on the back cover of Peel's two-part
novelization. In the text inside, it's "Time Destructor," but on the
back cover, it's "Time Destroyer."
Peel
Peter Wilton (pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4q9jat$g...@tombstone.kent.edu>, "Keith E. Young"
: <kyo...@Phoenix.kent.edu> writes
: >It surprises me that no one has nominated "the Dalek's MAsterplan" as
: >the best Dalek story....is that because no one here has seen it?
: The problem is that it was so long that, particularly around the
: Christmas period, parents kept whisking you away to this or that.
: Taking little Peter out to a concert or a play was *not* appreciated
: under such circumstances! Missed one of the earlier episodes, and
: thereafter was completely baffled by the plot. I sort of got an idea
: about the "Time Destructor" at the end. My English teacher said it
: should have been "Timer Destroyer"!
: --
Yes, it *was* overly-long. I saw it, but most of it didn't stick in my
mind, oddly enough. It wasn't until I came to novelize it that I recalled
huge chunks of it. As usual, Terry's scripts were better than what ended
up on the screen. (He's not always very budget-conscious!) Curiously
enough, "The Chase" impressed me when I first saw it, especially the
Mechonoid battle. It wasn't until I saw it the second time in the 80s that
I started to cringe at that first episode. When I was to do the story, I
was wondering how I could tell Terry that I *loathed* that magic castle
sequence. To my pleasure and surprise, it wasn't in his script - that had
been added by Dennis Spooner.
However, I don't want to give the impression I dislike Spooner's work! His
episodes of "Masterplan" are quite delightful.
John Peel
Peter Wilton
In article <4qehhf$k...@linet06.li.net>, Peel <jp...@newshost.li.net>
writes
>Curiously
>enough, "The Chase" impressed me when I first saw it, especially the
>Mechonoid battle. It wasn't until I saw it the second time in the 80s that
>I started to cringe at that first episode.
That was the one I really wanted to see again too! I have to admit, I
still enjoy it!
--
Peter Wilton
Nick Caldwell
Peter Wilton <pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Taking little Peter out to a concert or a play was *not* appreciated
>under such circumstances! Missed one of the earlier episodes, and
No wonder you weren't allowed to watch Doctor Who, if you kept on
taking your "little Peter" out at concerts.
>--
>Peter Wilton
Nick Caldwell
"oo-er"
(-:
--
****************************************************************
chi...@wonderland.apana.org.au
s32...@student.uq.edu.au
"and so we watched the sun come up from the
edge of the deep green sea..."
Peter Wilton
In article <4qhprv$b...@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>, Nick Caldwell
<s32...@student.uq.edu.au> writes
>No wonder you weren't allowed to watch Doctor Who, if you kept on
>taking your "little Peter" out at concerts.
>
>>--
>>Peter Wilton
>
>Nick Caldwell
>"oo-er"
>(-:
Mine was called John William, actually!
--
Peter Wilton
Marcus Durham
In article <4q82ta$j...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, Micheal Keane
<ae...@u.washington.edu> writes
>In article <Dt7B1...@cf.ac.uk>, David J. A. Lewis <lewi...@cf.ac.uk> wrote:
>>gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Douglas Edward Geers) wrote:
>>Revelation was pretty crap, even though the plot had merit, and they'd
>>obviously spent some money on it. But the real stinker was Destiny,
>>especially those Dalek catacombs, and Romana....ugh!
>
>so it was good enough to get me hooked.
I liked both Destiny and Death at first. But now I dont think so much of
them.
--
Marcus E. Durham
Euro '96. Football's coming home. Go on England!
Save Doctor Who email v...@bbc.co.uk and ask...@foxinc.com
Marcus Durham
>
>
>My favorite is Remembrance, and it's also my favorite Doctor Who
>story, period. The nostalgia, the great lines, the "final"
>confrontation between the Doctor and Davros, the little touches, all
>of it adds up to a great couple hours of television.
Agreed and so do the public. In my Doctor Who survey of over 40 people (
fans and non-fans ), it was voted as the top 1980's story by quite a
large margin ( but interestingly enough a higher proportion of non-fans
voted for the story ).
Marcus Durham
In article <31C817...@mail.io.com>, GLC <g...@mail.io.com> writes
>Maybe I should wait until I finish PLANET before voting here, but DEATH is so
>completely silly that I can't imaine it being outclassed. Not so much a Doc Who
>story as a Looney Tunes cartoon with the Daleks standing in for Wile E. Coyote
I hope Planet comes out on video soon!
Marcus Durham
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960619103521.28819A-
100...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>, Gregory A Welda
<greg...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> writes
>
> --Hey Gang--
>
>I would like to nominate THE FRONTIER IN SPACE. I know it is a stretch,
>their inclusion, as well as the conclusion of the story, seems not
>compleatly thought out. In addition, the Master, as the Daleks are
>leaving for their ship, actually has to guide, with his hands, a Dalek in
>the correct direction. The viewer is left with an impression that the
>Daleks are no better than the Ogrons.
>
>
as I hate the stupid voices ).
Ian C. Racey
Marcus Durham expects us to believe:
> >My favorite is Remembrance, and it's also my favorite Doctor Who
> >story, period. The nostalgia, the great lines, the "final"
> >confrontation between the Doctor and Davros, the little touches, all
> >of it adds up to a great couple hours of television.
> Agreed and so do the public. In my Doctor Who survey of over 40 people (
> fans and non-fans ), it was voted as the top 1980's story by quite a
> large margin ( but interestingly enough a higher proportion of non-fans
> voted for the story ).
I saw "Remembrance" in its entirety for the first time last week, and I
must say I loved it. Almost everything about it was absolutely brilliant
and perfect (except for the colour of the renegade Daleks' "death rays,"
which seemed to change from green to blue somewhere between part one and
part four. I also couldn't see any reason to make Davros the Emperor
Dalek, but both of these are veryvery minor qualms). My one real problem
with the story was the scene at the end where the Doctor defeats the last
renegade Dalek. What--the pepperpot just implodes because it *doesn't*
*know* *if* *the* *Doctor* *is* *telling* *the* *truth*? It didn't seem to
make any sense.
--some "But it was a brilliant story despite this, and ranks right
up there with 'Genesis' and 'Revelation' for best Dalek story" guy
PS. My four-year-old sister Sarah decided, upon seeing "Remembrance," that
Ace is her favourite Doctor Who character because "she has a nice braid."
Never mind that she's a delinquent pyromaniac servant of Fenric--she has a
nice braid, for Goddess's sake!:-)
--
Ian C. Racey, Dimensionally Transcendental
c/o Colin R. Racey <col...@cftnet.com>
'I guess sometimes it's hard to go from guns to frocks so quickly, you
know?'
Benny grinned at her. 'My dear Roslyn, frocks are the purpose of
life.'
--Kate Orman, SLEEPY
Nick Caldwell
Peter Wilton <pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>No wonder you weren't allowed to watch Doctor Who, if you kept on
>>taking your "little Peter" out at concerts.
>>
>>
>>Nick Caldwell
>>"oo-er"
>>(-:
>Mine was called John William, actually!
Just a little more information than I needed to know, Peter.
(-:
Nick Caldwell
Iain McCord
In article <4q9pqc$7...@linet06.li.net>, Peel <jp...@newshost.li.net> wrote:
>Incidentally, Terry tells me that "Destiny..." was heavily rewritten also.
>And "Revelation" bore very little resemblance to the version of the script
>that he approved. Don't blame him for what happened!
converts humans into Daleks? If so, was that the original idea?
--
Iain M`Cord
Jonathan Blum
>Chase" are *far* superior to the filmed version (heavily rewritten by
>Dennis Spooner). See my novelization of the story to get an idea of what
>Terry was attempting with it.
I think it might also be fair to point the finger at the director (Richard
Martin?) -- in his recent DWM interview, he all but said in so many words
that by the time of "The Chase" he was sick of bloody Daleks, and he and
Robert Jewell kept sending them up! (The grunting Dalek digging itself
out of the sand, the hemming and hawing one in the Dalek time machine, et
cetera...)
>Incidentally, Terry tells me that "Destiny..." was heavily rewritten also.
>And "Revelation" bore very little resemblance to the version of the script
>that he approved. Don't blame him for what happened!
And what about those of us who loved "Revelation"? Who do we give the
credit to? (Probably to Graeme Harper, I'd guess...)
Regards,
Jon Blum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"All this time you two thought you were playing some twisted game of
chess... when it was just me playing solitaire!"
D O C T O R W H O : T I M E R I F T
The Macra Terror
"Ian C. Racey" <cra...@cftnet.com> wrote:
>Marcus Durham expects us to believe:
>> In article <4q7d21$s...@news.gate.net>, Raistlin Wakefield
>> <rai...@gate.net> writes
>> [snip]
>
>> >My favorite is Remembrance, and it's also my favorite Doctor Who
>> >story, period. The nostalgia, the great lines, the "final"
>> >confrontation between the Doctor and Davros, the little touches, all
>> >of it adds up to a great couple hours of television.
>
>> Agreed and so do the public. In my Doctor Who survey of over 40 people (
>> fans and non-fans ), it was voted as the top 1980's story by quite a
>> large margin ( but interestingly enough a higher proportion of non-fans
>> voted for the story ).
>
>I saw "Remembrance" in its entirety for the first time last week, and I
>must say I loved it. Almost everything about it was absolutely brilliant
>and perfect (except for the colour of the renegade Daleks' "death rays,"
>which seemed to change from green to blue somewhere between part one and
>part four.
Check the color on your TV set. It looks fine and blue all the way
through to me.
I made the mistake of showing "Remembrance" to my six-year-old half-
brother Johnny as his first Dalek story. He loved it, but now insists
on calling ALL Daleks "Rebels" that aren't white-and-gold. Doesn't do
any good to tell him that it's the Imperials who call them "Rebels,"
and that they weren't "Rebels" before there was anything to rebel
against. It just inexplicably annoys the heck out of me.
Christopher D. Heer
In article <4q7r8i$b...@kirin.wwa.com>, The Macra Terror (eng...@pop.wwa.com)
says...
>gee...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Douglas Edward Geers) wrote:
>> IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
>> There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
>> is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
>> what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
>> stories this one was a real let down.
>> By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
>> a real level of menace never again achieved.
>I'm not sure on this one myself. I'd probably pick Planet of the
>Daleks, which just seems to go on and on and on. At least The Chase had
>its multiple settings as a distraction. Second-worst might go to Day,
>which despite having an abundance of plot ideas, just seemed to SIT
>there.
Destiny of the Daleks. No question in my mind. Although second-worst would
probably be Revelation of the Daleks.
Best Dalek story is Genesis, and the number two nod IMHO is Dalek Invasion of
Earth.
--
Christopher D. Heer: Vice President & CoFounder of| ch...@us.oracle.com
the William Sasso Fan Club! Bring Pete to Visions!| The cheer-o-meter
My opinions are my own and do not reflect those | says today Chris is
of Oracle Corp. Not that I've asked, of course. | in: Chicago, IL!
P.J. Appleton
Genesis is by far the best...
..simply because it explores a whole series of issues such as genetic
engineering, the futility of conflict, the danger of having a brilliant,
if somewhat "loopy" leader.
Plus those magic scenes:
- Davros torturing Harry and Sarah to get information out
of the doctor "You will tell me! YOU WILL TELL ME!"
- Davros trying to reason with the daleks at the end, and
the final dalek monologue into the video camera
- The climb up the rocket tower in an effort to escape
the thralls.
Honourable mentions however must go to Revelation (possibly one of the
wittiest Dr Who scripts ever - Davros as "The Great Healer"!),
Remembrance and Revelatation were just plain fun too. I even love Death,
simply because of that great city full of Indiana Jonesesque traps, and
the scene which sees the daleks fleeing from those antibodies. Also the
first Dr Who novel I ever read (age 9 or 10).
As to the worst - well Destiny is pretty awful, also Day isn't that
great, although I do enjoy that scene at the end with the Unit troops
fighting the ogrons and daleks as they approach the house to exterminate
Styles.
One question - is there any Dr Who material out there that details the
history of the daleks, particularly after Davros split them into two
warring factions?
Cheers,
Pete,
Dominus et Deus
The Lorax
<eng...@pop.wwa.com> wrote:
>
> "Destiny" is no classic, but I still kind of like it, if only because it
> moves along at a nice clip. I've never really cared for "Revelation,"
> either. It's definitely a lousy Dalek story, AS SUCH. The Daleks
> barely appear in it. For that matter, so does the Doctor. It had some
> good ideas in it, so I can't give it a total raspberry, but it was
> rather an unpleasant, disorganized mess. (And I'm still wondering why
> anyone would pay a DJ to play songs to people in suspended animation.)
My attitude towards the Revelation DJ was always just this: If you're
going to make me listen to that annoying guy for eternity, just let me
become wormfood. End the torment.
********* Lori Summers ********
"I like concise answers!" --The Doctor, COD
Peel
: One question - is there any Dr Who material out there that details the
: history of the daleks, particularly after Davros split them into two
: warring factions?
Yes, there's "The Official Doctor Who And The Daleks" book, which I
co-wrote with Terry Nation, and was published by St. Martin's Press. It
should still be available on special order.
Depending on BBC Books, there might even be "War Of The Daleks." I've
submitted the outline, which Terry has approved. It picks up where the
show left off and explains what *really* has been going on these past few
years...
John Peel
Christopher D. Heer
says...
>ch...@us.oracle.com (Christopher D. Heer) wrote:
>>Destiny of the Daleks. No question in my mind. Although second-worst would
>>probably be Revelation of the Daleks.
>"Destiny" is no classic, but I still kind of like it, if only because it
>moves along at a nice clip.
But the premise is so dopey! And I'm not going to sit here and trumpet the way
Daleks have been characterised (and I use that term advisedly) in most of the
series, but Dalek cheerleaders??
>I've never really cared for "Revelation,"
>either. It's definitely a lousy Dalek story, AS SUCH. The Daleks
>barely appear in it. For that matter, so does the Doctor. It had some
>good ideas in it, so I can't give it a total raspberry, but it was
>rather an unpleasant, disorganized mess. (And I'm still wondering why
>anyone would pay a DJ to play songs to people in suspended animation.)
The ideas are too simplistic IMHO, and the Dalek behaviour is inexplicable; I
mean, a justice system? (And a big thank-you to Enemy Within for reinforcing
it.) The characters are all cardbord and, to a large extent, extremely
annoying.
Looks gorgeous, though; gotta love Graeme Harper.
David McKinnon
>>> IMHO the very worst of all the Dalek stories is THE CHASE.
>>> There is little to no plot, and lots of padding. Almost all the Acting
>>> is less than its usual high standards. And that so called Doctor Robot,
>>> what the hell was that?!!? After the brillance of the first two Dalek
>>> stories this one was a real let down.
Y'know, I haven't seen this one, so I can't comment on it. What I've heard
doesn't sound good, though. (-: I'll have to watch it when it comes up
on KTEH, which should be in a few weeks.
>>> By the way The Dalek Invasion Of Earth is the best. Here they reach
>>> a real level of menace never again achieved.
Y'think? Now, I like DIoE and all, but the bloodbaths in "Genesis" had me
shivering much, much more than all the autocratic bluster in DIoE. In DIoE,
the Daleks were totally in control, and executing people left and right,
which is pretty damn nasty, right enough.
But in "Genesis", the Daleks are different. They're not executing hardened
revolutionaries, they're killing innocent partygoers. They're not the
predictable autocrats they were in DIoE, they're the tools of Davros, the
most devious, unpredictable, and terrifying villain the show has ever seen.
To me, that makes "Genesis" much more terrifying. I also happen to think
it's the best Dalek story going, but that's a somewhat unrelated matter.
The Macra Terror:
>>I'm not sure on this one myself. I'd probably pick Planet of the
>>Daleks, which just seems to go on and on and on. At least The Chase had
>>its multiple settings as a distraction. Second-worst might go to Day,
>>which despite having an abundance of plot ideas, just seemed to SIT
>>there.
I don't mind Planet all that much, although I must confess that if I've seen
it at all, it was a long time ago -- I may just be making it all up from the
novelisation. (-: But "Day of the Daleks" is brilliant -- one of my
favourite Dalek stories. You've got humour, intrigue, decent pace, and a
time paradox plot that's *consistent*. Not bad, in my book, although of
course that's just me.
Chris "wrong" Heer:
>Destiny of the Daleks. No question in my mind. Although second-worst would
>probably be Revelation of the Daleks.
"Revelation", all the way. Bear in mind that I haven't seen the lost Dalek
stories, or "The Chase", but "Revelation" is badness 10000. The plot is
ridiculous and inconsistent, the characters have complete personality
changes from scene to scene, many of them are as annoying as a boil on the
bum, and the entire first half of the story is padding.
"Destiny", on the other hand, is just silly. Yes, the plot rests on an
annoying gimmick, the Movellans are stupid, and Davros needs to start taking
his medication again, but at least it's funny, and more or less consistent.
Two major ways in which it scores over "Revelation".
How about "Death to the Daleks" for sheer crappitude? Slow, utterly
predictable, with annoying characters and *hilarious* incidental music.
When I heard the Dalek theme, for example, I just about died laughing.
>Best Dalek story is Genesis, and the number two nod IMHO is Dalek Invasion of
>Earth.
Hmm. I'd go with "Genesis", followed by ... hmm, this is a toughie. I like
"Resurrection" a lot, but "Day" is pretty good too. I hear "Evil" and
"Power" are good, but I can only guess based on the novelisations (which I
liked).
So I'll put "Resurrection of the Daleks" in second behind "Genesis", and
"Day of the Daleks" in third, pending discovery of "Evil" and "Power".
How's that? (-:
--David "'Nyder?'" McKinnon
mcki...@math.berkeley.edu
Jonathan Blum
Christopher D. Heer <ch...@eskimo.com> wrote:
[re "Revelation of the Daleks"]
>The ideas are too simplistic IMHO, and the Dalek behaviour is inexplicable; I
>reinforcing it.)
It's getting the the point where I really can't understand peoples'
harping on how BAD it is for the Daleks to have some kind of a justice
system.
The Nazis had a justice system, after all. Didn't slow 'em down in the
slightest when they wanted to exterminate some innocent population -- they
didn't bother extending it into a war. Hell, Kafka had a justice system in
"The Trial", and a big help it was too.
Do people get upset because this implies that the Daleks might actually
have... *gasp*... a CULTURE? Even a SOCIETY? That even though they are
cold-blooded ruthless killers with no conscience whatsoever, they might
actually have something else to them as well?
Makes it a bit harder for us to just casually kill 'em, after all.
Regards,
Jon Blum
(who thoroughly enjoys the little moment in "Also People" when the Doctor
is casually talking about Dalek opera... and then you realize that this
is the man who wiped them all out. Brr.)
Christopher D. Heer
(jb...@access4.digex.net) says...
>And what about those of us who loved "Revelation [of the Daleks]"?
After all these years, Mr. Blum, you can still surprise me. :)
Jonathan Blum
>Depending on BBC Books, there might even be "War Of The Daleks." I've
>submitted the outline, which Terry has approved. It picks up where the
>show left off and explains what *really* has been going on these past few
>years...
Just curious... By this last comment, do you mean that you'll be trying
to explain what's been going on with the Daleks for the past few years
(since the end of the BBC series), or that you'll be explaining away the
NA's? Or explaining away the McCoy era? Or, indeed, explaining away all
of "Doctor Who" since they started with all this Davros nonsense? :-)
Regards,
Jon Blum
Peel
that one right... I always confuse the last three Dalek stories, all of
which are bad.) It's absolutely obvious that the story about the mausoleum
society is completely unconnected with the Doctor. Look at the story, and
eliminate every scene the Doctor is in. It doesn't affect the plot in the
slightest. The Doctor does *nothing* that affects anything in this tale.
That's because the original story wasn't a DW story, and he was grafted in
to enable the author to sell it to someone. Besides - Davros firing
fireworks from his fingertips???
John Peel
Jonathan Blum
>Worst Dalek story? Ow... Has to be "Remembrance", I think. (I hope I got
>that one right... I always confuse the last three Dalek stories, all of
>which are bad.)
"Revelation".
>It's absolutely obvious that the story about the mausoleum
>society is completely unconnected with the Doctor. Look at the story, and
>eliminate every scene the Doctor is in. It doesn't affect the plot in the
>slightest. The Doctor does *nothing* that affects anything in this tale.
>That's because the original story wasn't a DW story, and he was grafted in
>to enable the author to sell it to someone.
Could I ask you where you heard this, John? Because I find it interesting
that the sitting script editor for the show would have a problem finding
someplace to buy a script from him... I'd think that this was more a case
of Saward trying to do a Holmesian literary pastiche ("Doctor Who meets
'The Loved One'"), and just not being as able to integrate the Doctor into
it as well as they'd managed in the Hinchcliffe years.
In fact, the "park the Doctor in a subplot while the action swirls on
around him" routine seems to be fairly common to Saward's other Who
scripts as well -- "Resurrection" keeps him sitting around or tied up for
a good half of the story, and the only thing he does to affect the outcome
in "Attack of the Cybermen" is give the Cryon in the storeroom his sonic
lance.
>Besides - Davros firing fireworks from his fingertips???
What's wrong with that? Is it hard to believe that a man who created a
race which runs off of static electricity would be able to harness it
himself?
(Though I did suddenly picture Davros's withered legs scuffing frantically
on a little piece of carpet inside his chair, trying to build up enough of
a static charge to make a spark THAT big...)
Jack Beven
>Do people get upset because this implies that the Daleks might actually
>have... *gasp*... a CULTURE? Even a SOCIETY? That even though they are
>cold-blooded ruthless killers with no conscience whatsoever, they might
>actually have something else to them as well?
culture or a society. First, it's rather at odds with everything else we've
seen of the Daleks up to that time. Second, while a justice system could be
compatible with the Daleks stated objective of becoming the supreme beings of
the Universe, things like poetry and opera could not IMHO. After all, they
aren't using either in their wars against other beings.
(The reference to Dalek poetry and opera was the one part of "The Also
People" that gave me heartburn, btw. Otherwise, I loved it.)
Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are programmed
to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on entertainment.
It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
Jack Beven (a. k. a. The Supreme Dalek)
Tropical Prediction Center
jbe...@delphi.com be...@nhc.noaa.gov
Ben Aaronovitch
> (The reference to Dalek poetry and opera was the one part of "The Also
>People" that gave me heartburn, btw. Otherwise, I loved it.)
Checks So Vile A Sin manuscript - 'aw fuck'
> Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are programmed
>to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on entertainment.
>It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
I said it was written in machine code didn't I?
Ben Aaronovitch
(b...@nomsa.sonnet.co.uk
The Macra Terror
>Worst Dalek story? Ow... Has to be "Remembrance", I think. (I hope I got
>that one right... I always confuse the last three Dalek stories, all of
>eliminate every scene the Doctor is in. It doesn't affect the plot in the
>slightest. The Doctor does *nothing* that affects anything in this tale.
>That's because the original story wasn't a DW story, and he was grafted in
>fireworks from his fingertips???
It was "Revelation." Are you sure it didn't start out as a DW story?
I haven't read anything to suggest that Saward revised it from something
pre-existing. The minor role of the Doctor may just be due to Saward's
well-known dislike of the Colin Baker Doctor, and his growing
disenchantment with the series in general.
(I think we all knew you were going to pick either "Day" or one of the
"Three R's". Don't bite the hand that feeds you, and all...! [the
preceding was humor; please don't hurt the author])
The Macra Terror
>In article <4qsq4u$j...@kirin.wwa.com>, The Macra Terror (eng...@pop.wwa.com)
>>moves along at a nice clip.
>
>But the premise is so dopey! And I'm not going to sit here and trumpet the way
>Daleks have been characterised (and I use that term advisedly) in most of the
>series, but Dalek cheerleaders??
I agree with all that you say. But "Destiny" still works for me from
the standpoint of pure entertainment. "Death," to give one example,
may have been a marginally better story, but kind of drags along.
Dalek cheerleaders! I thought that was Dalek poetry! "Seek, locate,
exterminate./Do not deviate./Or else we'll be late./And that won't be
great."
>>I've never really cared for "Revelation,"
>>either. It's definitely a lousy Dalek story, AS SUCH. The Daleks
>>barely appear in it. For that matter, so does the Doctor. It had some
>>good ideas in it, so I can't give it a total raspberry, but it was
>>rather an unpleasant, disorganized mess. (And I'm still wondering why
>>anyone would pay a DJ to play songs to people in suspended animation.)
>
>The ideas are too simplistic IMHO, and the Dalek behaviour is inexplicable; I
>mean, a justice system? (And a big thank-you to Enemy Within for reinforcing
>it.) The characters are all cardbord and, to a large extent, extremely
>annoying.
>
>Looks gorgeous, though; gotta love Graeme Harper.
Although in that one bit where the camera goes down a level, I thought
the vertical hold on my TV had gone wonky. It was annoyingly obvious
that it was a simple video effect, since there was no change in
perspective as the camera went "down." But this is a small nitpick.
I'll agree that "Revelation" was not a good story. But I kind of liked
Saward's comment about the futility of waiting to be brought back to
life in a future that doesn't need you; that the dead would arguably
serve more purpose as food! (Starting to sound like Monty Python: "Ooh,
this one looks like an eater!")
Kate Orman
[snip]
> Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are programmed
>to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on entertainment.
>It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
That's nuffin' - anyone remember the Cylon Centre for Culture?
--
Kate Orman - "A broad too deep for the small screen"
kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au | http://www.ocs.mq.edu.au/~korman
Dwain Gleason
In article <4r5631$g...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>, kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au
(Kate Orman) wrote:
> In article <ZlOttMl...@delphi.com>, Jack Beven <jbe...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are
programmed
> >to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on
entertainment.
> >It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
>
> That's nuffin' - anyone remember the Cylon Centre for Culture?
Wasn't that the thing with the Boltar Center for the Performing Arts, and
the Imperious Leader Memorial Dance Hall? They do a great all-Cylon
performance of "South Pacific", and the Cylon State Ballet is poetry to
behold.
Mind you, nothing holds a candle to the all-Dalek production of "Cats."
Surely T.S. Eliot was thinking of those cute little guys when he came up
with those vignettes.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dwain Gleason dgle...@sky.net |
| WhoLINK: http://www.sky.net/~dgleason/wholink.html |
| "Logic...only allows one to be wrong with authority" |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
man...@stsci.edu
In article <4r1rt6$d...@linet06.li.net>, jp...@newshost.li.net (Peel) writes:
> Worst Dalek story? Ow... Has to be "Remembrance", I think. (I hope I got
> that one right... I always confuse the last three Dalek stories, all of
> which are bad.) It's absolutely obvious that the story about the mausoleum
> society is completely unconnected with the Doctor. Look at the story, and
> eliminate every scene the Doctor is in. It doesn't affect the plot in the
> slightest. The Doctor does *nothing* that affects anything in this tale.
> That's because the original story wasn't a DW story, and he was grafted in
> to enable the author to sell it to someone. Besides - Davros firing
> fireworks from his fingertips???
>
>
>
Actually, that was "Revelation of the Daleks," not "Remembrance," and I
like all three of them, although what you say about the Doctor being
redundant to "Revelation" is completely true up until the very end of it.
Nick Caldwell
Jack Beven <jbe...@delphi.com> wrote:
> Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are programmed
>to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on entertainment.
>It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
>
Daleks, logical? They are irrational, violent, hate-filled,
well-armed murderers! No wonder they write opera.
Jonathan Blum
In article <4r71rk$q...@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>,
>> Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are
>>programmed to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no
>>value on entertainment. It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
>Daleks, logical? They are irrational, violent, hate-filled,
>well-armed murderers! No wonder they write opera.
*grin* The question is, would Grace like it?
Christopher D. Heer
In article <4qv95b$p...@access2.digex.net>, Jonathan Blum
(jb...@access2.digex.net) says...
>In article <4quglj$s...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>,
>Christopher D. Heer <ch...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>[re "Revelation of the Daleks"]
>>The ideas are too simplistic IMHO, and the Dalek behaviour is inexplicable; I
>>mean, a justice system? (And a big thank you to Enemy Within for
>>reinforcing it.)
>It's getting the the point where I really can't understand peoples'
>harping on how BAD it is for the Daleks to have some kind of a justice
>system.
:)
>The Nazis had a justice system, after all. Didn't slow 'em down in the
>slightest when they wanted to exterminate some innocent population -- they
>didn't bother extending it into a war. Hell, Kafka had a justice system in
>"The Trial", and a big help it was too.
The Daleks are *not* Nazis. Despite all the allegories, they aren't; in fact,
there are oodles of differences. The Nazis were still humans. What *kind* of
humans is left to be determined as an exercise for the reader, but the Daleks
had been engineered (by Davros) with specific traits left in and specific
traits tossed aside. It has, in fact, been stated several times that such
things as love, compassion, etc. were left straight out of the mix.
>Do people get upset because this implies that the Daleks might actually
>have... *gasp*... a CULTURE? Even a SOCIETY? That even though they are
>cold-blooded ruthless killers with no conscience whatsoever, they might
>actually have something else to them as well?
Why? What would they need it for? If the Daleks are logical (as stated in
Destiny), what on Skaro would they develop culture for?
What would make them develop a justice system, anyway? To what end? Look at
Evil of the Daleks. . . the Doctor humanises a few Daleks, and they actually
disobey, and the Daleks are *floored* by this. Daleks, then (assuming they're
operating correctly) are unswervingly loyal and completely obedient. So what
would you *punish* them for? And as for other races. . . the Daleks
exterminate them wholesale, unless they're of use. Watch Dalek Invasion of
Earth. . . the humans are kept alive to either do labour or be turned into
Robomen. Step out of line, and the Daleks just whack 'em.
Can you honestly see the Daleks letting someone *go*?
>Makes it a bit harder for us to just casually kill 'em, after all.
Next you'll be suggesting images of little Dalek families going for a nice roll
in the park.
>(who thoroughly enjoys the little moment in "Also People" when the Doctor
>is casually talking about Dalek opera... and then you realize that this
>is the man who wiped them all out. Brr.)
One of my least favourite moments in the book, because honestly, what on Earth
would Daleks invent *opera* for?
MMir
Chris Heer wrote:
>Jon Blum wrote:
>>(who thoroughly enjoys the little moment in "Also People" when the
Doctor
>>is casually talking about Dalek opera... and then you realize that this
>>is the man who wiped them all out. Brr.)
>One of my least favourite moments in the book, because honestly, what on
Earth
>would Daleks invent *opera* for?
Chris, you weren't paying attention. The Daleks composed
poetry, which a human then used as libretto for an opera.
He took the opera all the way to Skaro*, and was promptly
exterminated.
*That's the part I really don't understand.
MMir,
who, like Mr Blum, thought that section of Also People was great.
"Justice, you have broken your children on your wheel."
Christopher D. Heer
In article <4r93io$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, MMir (mm...@aol.com) says...
>Chris Heer wrote:
>>Jon Blum wrote:
>>>(who thoroughly enjoys the little moment in "Also People" when the
>>>Doctor is casually talking about Dalek opera... and then you realize that
>>>this is the man who wiped them all out. Brr.)
>>One of my least favourite moments in the book, because honestly, what on
>>Earth would Daleks invent *opera* for?
>Chris, you weren't paying attention. The Daleks composed
>poetry, which a human then used as libretto for an opera.
>He took the opera all the way to Skaro*, and was promptly
>exterminated.
You weren't paying attention either. This changes my fundamental point not at
all. Why would Daleks have a use for poetry?
Jonathan Blum
In article <4r8ukp$o...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>,
Christopher D. Heer <ch...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>In article <4qv95b$p...@access2.digex.net>, Jonathan Blum
>(jb...@access2.digex.net) says...
>>The Nazis had a justice system, after all. Didn't slow 'em down in the
>>slightest when they wanted to exterminate some innocent population -- they
>>didn't bother extending it into a war. Hell, Kafka had a justice system in
>>"The Trial", and a big help it was too.
>The Daleks are *not* Nazis. Despite all the allegories, they aren't; in fact,
>there are oodles of differences. The Nazis were still humans. What *kind* of
>humans is left to be determined as an exercise for the reader, but the Daleks
>had been engineered (by Davros) with specific traits left in and specific
>traits tossed aside. It has, in fact, been stated several times that such
>things as love, compassion, etc. were left straight out of the mix.
So? You hardly need love or compassion to put someone on trial. You can
decide whether they live or die based on purely practical considerations.
>>Do people get upset because this implies that the Daleks might actually
>>have... *gasp*... a CULTURE? Even a SOCIETY? That even though they are
>>cold-blooded ruthless killers with no conscience whatsoever, they might
>>actually have something else to them as well?
>Why? What would they need it for? If the Daleks are logical (as stated in
>Destiny), what on Skaro would they develop culture for?
I would much rather believe in Dalek poetry than in "Destiny of the
Daleks". :-)
>What would make them develop a justice system, anyway? To what end? Look at
>Evil of the Daleks. . . the Doctor humanises a few Daleks, and they actually
>disobey, and the Daleks are *floored* by this. Daleks, then (assuming they're
>operating correctly) are unswervingly loyal and completely obedient. So what
>would you *punish* them for?
Funny, the author of "Evil of the Daleks" is also the one who wrote the
TV21 comic strips in which "Zeg" challenges the authority of the Emperor,
and they put him on trial, judged by their master-brain computer, isn't
he?
>And as for other races. . . the Daleks
>exterminate them wholesale, unless they're of use. Watch Dalek Invasion of
>Earth. . . the humans are kept alive to either do labour or be turned into
>Robomen. Step out of line, and the Daleks just whack 'em.
Well, that's precisely what a Dalek trial probably is. They're not sure
whether to exterminate this person or not, because they think he might
possibly be of use. That's the question, not guilt or innocence.
Both they people they've put on trial have been more than your average
human: their creator, the closest thing they have to a God, who
understands their physiology better than anyone, and a renegade Time Lord
who helped them in a plan which came *that* close to conquering the
galaxy, and who could be of use again if they're still interested in
perfecting time travel. They've both acted against the Daleks, but they
both might still be more use alive than dead.
That's what the trial is for.
>Can you honestly see the Daleks letting someone *go*?
No. I can see them letting someone *live*, if it's useful. That's what
they want to decide.
>Next you'll be suggesting images of little Dalek families going for a
>nice roll in the park.
Think Klingon, Chris. Just because a race isn't unthinking and
unimaginatively EVIL doesn't mean they'll suddenly be lying around in
fields contemplating daisies...
Parkin
Jonathan Blum (jb...@access2.digex.net) wrote:
: Do people get upset because this implies that the Daleks might actually
: have... *gasp*... a CULTURE? Even a SOCIETY? That even though they are
: cold-blooded ruthless killers with no conscience whatsoever, they might
: actually have something else to them as well?
: Makes it a bit harder for us to just casually kill 'em, after all.
(spits into bucket) them's namby-pamby Star Trek sentiments, Blum, we
don't like them round these parts. Monsters is monsters, always was always
was be.
Exploring alien cultures, religions and so on is all very well, but isn't
the best thing about Doctor Who monsters that they are ugly, scary gits?
They are there to scare kids, not to make some point about common
humanity. I loved 'GodEngine', but I'd have preferred more Ice Warriors
leaping out and going 'Grrrr!' and less 'Our Eight Point Table has been
defiled by the Warrior Caste' stuff. In fact... no, I'd better not say.
Who monsters are archetypes: walking phobias (The Wirrn, the Spiders),
folklore monsters brought up to date (the Haemovores, Morbius Monster),
what-we-might-become (Cybermen, Daleks). Very rarely do we get an alien
'culture' (Draconians, Sensorites), and it isn't really what most of
Doctor Who is about. It's not a coincidence that the most popular monsters
are the ones that kids can identify with: the Dalek voice, the Cyberman
walk. Back when people had fur coats you could be a Yeti, in the 70s,
you could zip up the snorkel of your parka and be an Ice Warrior. The
Sontarans look like potatoes and you can do that 'bifurcated hand thing'.
Besides, if you think twice about shooting a Dalek, it just shoots you
first.
Lance
Jack Beven
Kate Orman <kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au> writes:
>In article <ZlOttMl...@delphi.com>, Jack Beven <jbe...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on entertainment.
>>It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
>
appear in? I'll look for it next time I catch it on the Sci-Fi channel.
Or are you pouring chocolate sauce on my eye lights? :-)
Jack Beven (a. k. a. The Supreme Dalek)
Tropical Prediction Center
jbe...@delphi.com be...@nhc.noaa.gov
William James Booth
On 27 Jun 1996, The Macra Terror wrote:
> (And I'm still wondering why
> anyone would pay a DJ to play songs to people in suspended animation.)
Think of it another way.
They were awake when the DJ started playing them songs. They went into
suspended animation in self-defence.
--
"The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn't concern himself with logic ...
You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his
flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he always
brings up the Templars." (Umberto Eco, Foucault's Pendulum)
John Peel
Hmm... So the odds were I'd pick a non-Terry story, eh? It's not quite
"don't bite the hand that feeds you," because I've actually criticized some
of Terry's stuff, and he feels I'm entitled to my opinion. It's just that I
really think that the JNT era Dalek stories got way off base and completely
misunderstood what the Daleks are about. On the other hand, I'd be the
first to admit that "Destiny" is far from being a classic!
John Peel
The Macra Terror
Jack Beven <jbe...@delphi.com> wrote:
>Kate Orman <kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au> writes:
>
>>In article <ZlOttMl...@delphi.com>, Jack Beven <jbe...@delphi.com> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> Since the Daleks are cyborgs (or something close to that) and are programmed
>>>to be logical, I feel that they would place little or no value on entertainment.
>>>It just wouldn't further their goals, IMHO.
>>
>>That's nuffin' - anyone remember the Cylon Centre for Culture?
>
> Not off the top of my head. Which episode of Battlestar Galatica did that
>appear in? I'll look for it next time I catch it on the Sci-Fi channel.
>
> Or are you pouring chocolate sauce on my eye lights? :-)
I think it was "The Living Legend," that two-parter with Lloyd Bridges
as Commander Cain of the Battlestar Pegasus. But I could be mistaken.
Peter Wilton
In article <4r91ip$d...@netty.york.ac.uk>, Parkin <ljp...@york.ac.uk>
writes
>Exploring alien cultures, religions and so on is all very well, but isn't
>the best thing about Doctor Who monsters that they are ugly, scary gits?
>They are there to scare kids, not to make some point about common
>humanity.
That's how they ended up, but not the original intention of the series.
Personally, I find the earlier stories more satisfying, because there is
some other point to the monsters and to the interaction with historical
characters, beyond just being about human beings with silly clothes and
other bits made out of latex stuck on!
--
Peter Wilton
Richard Daniel Henry
Jonathan Blum wrote:
> So? You hardly need love or compassion to put someone on trial.
Especially if the verdict has been determined in advanced. It's called a
"show trial" and is extremely useful for oppressive governments that
want to show others that they are civilized. And if you were going to
execute a Time Lord, even one that Galleyfrey would like to see dead,
wouldn't you want to be seen to follow the proper form?
More interesting to my mind is the fact that the Daleks granted the
Master's last request... and so did the Doctor and the Time Lords! I can
explain the Daleks actions by assuming they figured that the Master
might still have one or two tricks up his sleeve. They'd just as soon
drop any booby-traps into the laps of the Time Lords, thanks. As for the
Doctor... a sense of duty? Wanting to see the ashes? As for the Time
Lords... tradition? Some Article 24 that says every Time Lord has a
right to burial on his home planet?
-- R. Dan Henry
The Black Guardian
reasonably expect a bit of both. Occasionally there is a moral quandry
to ponder, while at other times there are simply rubber suited monsters
(as opposed to, say, Star Trek or Babylon 5 where if I tune in I almost
expect to have some moral judgement physically rammed down my throat. I
do like these shows, just not as much.) And when there are moral
questions in Who, they are rarely answered. What is important is that
the question itself be asked. I can pull out my Daleks' Boxed set and
watch "Remembrance" and contemplate the woes of racism, or if I'm feeling
a little lighter, switch to "The Chase" for some almost total silliness.
--Tom Bradford (The Black Guardian)
christopher j rednour,sa120a cd,244-5012,8
In a previous article, ch...@us.oracle.com (Christopher D. Heer) says:
>In article <4r93io$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, MMir (mm...@aol.com) says...
>
>>Chris Heer wrote:
>>>Jon Blum wrote:
>>>>(who thoroughly enjoys the little moment in "Also People" when the
>>>>Doctor is casually talking about Dalek opera... and then you realize that
>>>>this is the man who wiped them all out. Brr.)
>
>>>One of my least favourite moments in the book, because honestly, what on
>>>Earth would Daleks invent *opera* for?
>
>>Chris, you weren't paying attention. The Daleks composed
>>poetry, which a human then used as libretto for an opera.
>>He took the opera all the way to Skaro*, and was promptly
>>exterminated.
>
>You weren't paying attention either. This changes my fundamental point not at
>all. Why would Daleks have a use for poetry?
Maybe a traditional holdover from before they were Daleks? Certainly
they didn't abandon all the traditions once they became the homicidal
plunger-people.
Or maybe its something to while away the time when you are not battling the
Doctor or invading and exterminating?
Or maybe its just for a good Laugh?
-Chris
--
====Ibis the Invincible - cred...@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu===========
"You're a swell guy Cosmic Boy...but I'd sure hate to meet some of
your primeval ancestors in a Dark Alley!" -Sun Boy to Cosmic boy on seeing
the results of the Ancestor-Visualizer Machine in ADVENTURE COMICS #328
Ben Aaronovitch
ch...@us.oracle.com (Christopher D. Heer) wrote:
>In article <4qv95b$p...@access2.digex.net>, Jonathan Blum
>(jb...@access2.digex.net) says...
>>(who thoroughly enjoys the little moment in "Also People" when the Doctor
>>is casually talking about Dalek opera... and then you realize that this
>>is the man who wiped them all out. Brr.)
>One of my least favourite moments in the book, because honestly, what on Earth
>would Daleks invent *opera* for?
It was poetry not opera and it was written in machine code.
Poetry is not invented, it is expressed, even when it is forbidden.
Ben Aaronovitch
(b...@nomsa.sonnet.co.uk
Jonathan Blum
In article <31DA3B...@inreach.com>,
Richard Daniel Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>More interesting to my mind is the fact that the Daleks granted the
>Master's last request... and so did the Doctor and the Time Lords! I can
>explain the Daleks actions by assuming they figured that the Master
>might still have one or two tricks up his sleeve. They'd just as soon
>drop any booby-traps into the laps of the Time Lords, thanks. As for the
>Doctor... a sense of duty? Wanting to see the ashes? As for the Time
>Lords... tradition? Some Article 24 that says every Time Lord has a
>right to burial on his home planet?
The Doctor probably wanted the Master's remains just so he could kill them
again. Just to make sure. :-)
Peter Wilton
In article <4re3ml$j...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu>, The Black Guardian
<tbra...@hamilton.edu> writes
>Occasionally there is a moral quandry
>to ponder, while at other times there are simply rubber suited monsters
>(as opposed to, say, Star Trek or Babylon 5 where if I tune in I almost
>expect to have some moral judgement physically rammed down my throat. I
>do like these shows, just not as much.) And when there are moral
>questions in Who, they are rarely answered.
I think you've hit an important distinction on the head there.
--
Peter Wilton
Thomas Kilburn III
On 29 Jun 1996, Peel wrote:
> Worst Dalek story? Ow... Has to be "Remembrance", I think. (I hope I got
> that one right... I always confuse the last three Dalek stories, all of
> which are bad.) It's absolutely obvious that the story about the mausoleum
> society is completely unconnected with the Doctor. Look at the story, and
> eliminate every scene the Doctor is in. It doesn't affect the plot in the
> slightest. The Doctor does *nothing* that affects anything in this tale.
> That's because the original story wasn't a DW story, and he was grafted in
> to enable the author to sell it to someone. Besides - Davros firing
> fireworks from his fingertips???
I don't know. "Recycling of the Daleks" had some redeeming qualities to
it. Thanks to the Doctor, the people living of Skaro (before it was
destroyed mind you) learned the value of not wasting their resources on
war transports for blobs (or bionic blobs with bits added.) and instead
went about manufacturing Sunny Delight bottles. Of course, this was the
reason Skaro was annihilated in "Rememberance". Unfortunately, they put
Davros in the aluminum pile, where he promptly disappeared again, leaving
it open for the last Dalek episode "Rigatoni of the Daleks" (Davros turns
a nice Italian dish into evil beasts who really want to kill fat men with
a love of parmesan cheese.)
Oh, *real* episodes. Definitely "Revelation". Very bad.
Course, if I mixed up Revelations and Rememberance, please forgive me.
> John Peel
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Thomas Kilburn, a (stra...@utdallas.edu) |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| "You shall be ASSIMILATED!!!" |
| Daleks after an encounter with the Borg |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Daniel Henry
"Destiny of the Daleks" is the worst Dalek story. If "Twin Dilemma" did
not exist, it might get my vote for worst Doctor Who.
-- R. Dan Henry
Christopher D. Heer
In article <31DCD2...@inreach.com>, Richard Daniel Henry
(danh...@inreach.com) says...
>"Destiny of the Daleks" is the worst Dalek story. If "Twin Dilemma" did
>not exist, it might get my vote for worst Doctor Who.
Oh man I've missed you, Dan!
Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal
In article <4rf4ne$r...@access1.digex.net>,
Jonathan Blum <jb...@access1.digex.net> wrote:
>In article <31DA3B...@inreach.com>,
>Richard Daniel Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>>More interesting to my mind is the fact that the Daleks granted the
>>Master's last request... and so did the Doctor and the Time Lords! I can
>>explain the Daleks actions by assuming they figured that the Master
>>might still have one or two tricks up his sleeve. They'd just as soon
>>drop any booby-traps into the laps of the Time Lords, thanks. As for the
>>Doctor... a sense of duty? Wanting to see the ashes? As for the Time
>>Lords... tradition? Some Article 24 that says every Time Lord has a
>>right to burial on his home planet?
>
>The Doctor probably wanted the Master's remains just so he could kill them
>again. Just to make sure. :-)
Big question, though: how does the Doctor get the Master's remains?
Presumably, they're on Skaro somewhere...
The Doctor: Ah! Hello, I'm here for the Master's ashes.
Dalek: Not so fast, you'll have to sign this, first.
The Doctor: All right [scrawl] there you go. [keeps pen]
Dalek: Good. Well, here they are. Keep them in a cool, dry
place and they shouldn't be any trouble.
The Doctor: Thank you very much. [leaves]
Another Dalek: That chap looked familiar...
Third Dalek: Wasn't he...
All: D'OH! EX-TER-MIN-ATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE!
--Eric Smith
(Unless we're postulating a Doctor-Dalek dentente. Unlikely, considering
that he's killed off their whole race, twice.)
The Thing
On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal wrote:
> In article <4rf4ne$r...@access1.digex.net>,
> >
> >The Doctor probably wanted the Master's remains just so he could kill them
> >again. Just to make sure. :-)
>
> Big question, though: how does the Doctor get the Master's remains?
> Presumably, they're on Skaro somewhere...
>
> The Doctor: Ah! Hello, I'm here for the Master's ashes.
> Dalek: Not so fast, you'll have to sign this, first.
> The Doctor: All right [scrawl] there you go. [keeps pen]
> Dalek: Good. Well, here they are. Keep them in a cool, dry
> place and they shouldn't be any trouble.
> The Doctor: Thank you very much. [leaves]
> Another Dalek: That chap looked familiar...
> Third Dalek: Wasn't he...
> All: D'OH! EX-TER-MIN-ATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE!
I'd LOVE to hear the Daleks say "D'oh!" (-: (-:
> --Eric Smith
> (Unless we're postulating a Doctor-Dalek dentente. Unlikely, considering
> that he's killed off their whole race, twice.)
I HATE when that happens...
Oh, and try saying Doctor-Dalek dentente five time fast... (-:
+----Catherine Johnson -------------- c...@flamestrike.hacks.arizona.edu----+
| "Man might kill his brother, but he could _never_ kill his dog." |
| -Cornelius (Roddy McDowall), _Escape_From_the_Planet_of_the_Apes_ |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Richard Daniel Henry
Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal wrote:
> Big question, though: how does the Doctor get the Master's remains?
> Presumably, they're on Skaro somewhere...
Communications is established between the TARDIS in orbit and Skaro,
where a Dalek, a Special Weapons Dalek and an Extra-Special Weapons
Dalek guard the ashes.
DOCTOR: All right, I've created a spacetime interlink. Transmat the
ashes up now.
DALEK: Er, could you please come down and get them in person. We'd like
to verify your identity.
DOCTOR: I'm sure you would, but you've extermined enough Time Lords for
one day.
DALEK: The true destiny of the Daleks is to one day kick your
regenerating butt. For now, however, I will comply.
(Dalek transmats ashes plus a bomb that the TARDIS automatically defuses
in-transit)
DOCTOR: Nice try.
Or something along those lines. I did assume, even as I was watching the
show, that there had been some sort of remote transfer, given that the
two sides don't trust each other. That may also explain why they weren't
just Time Scooped. The Daleks may have temporal defenses around the new
Skaro and would be unwilling to drop them.
-- R. Dan Henry, these are my theories, but I share
Gary Morris
In <Pine.GSO.3.94.960706142208.7865D-100000@Flamestrike> The Thing <c...@flamestrike.hacks.arizona.edu> writes:
>On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal wrote:
>> >The Doctor probably wanted the Master's remains just so he could kill them
>> >again. Just to make sure. :-)
>>
>> Big question, though: how does the Doctor get the Master's remains?
>> Presumably, they're on Skaro somewhere...
>>
>> The Doctor: Ah! Hello, I'm here for the Master's ashes.
>> Dalek: Not so fast, you'll have to sign this, first.
>> The Doctor: All right [scrawl] there you go. [keeps pen]
>> Dalek: Good. Well, here they are. Keep them in a cool, dry
>> place and they shouldn't be any trouble.
>> The Doctor: Thank you very much. [leaves]
>> Another Dalek: That chap looked familiar...
>> Third Dalek: Wasn't he...
>> All: D'OH! EX-TER-MIN-ATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE!
>I'd LOVE to hear the Daleks say "D'oh!" (-: (-:
I know what I'm doing in MOMI this summer.... :)
--
--
Gary Morris
http://www.nl2k.edmonton.ab.ca/~garym
Omega
I dunno, I just assumed that these were the new breed of Daleks
introduced in 'Evil of the Daleks', and never referred to again. You
know, the ones that the Doctor 'humanized', restoring the conscience
and ethics that Davros eliminated? I can easily see them trying and
executing the Doctor, and obeying his request for the Ashes.
Then again, I also figure that these Daleks talking about how
everyone is scared of them since they look like the other Daleks. They
discuss this, and decide that in order to make themselves look less
threatening, they should use pastel tones. There'd be the Pink Dalek
instead of the Black Dalek, the Lavender Dalek instead of the Gold
Dalek...you get the idea.
Omega
******
"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun."
--Ash, Army of Darkness
Omega
Sorry...should have read 'trying and executing the Master', and
'obeying the Doctor's request for the ashes.' I think it was a
Freudian slip...
Omega
******
"I'll swallow your soul!"
"Come get some."
--Army of Darkness again
Cameron Dixon
Nick Caldwell (s32...@student.uq.edu.au) wrote:
: Daleks, logical? They are irrational, violent, hate-filled,
: well-armed murderers! No wonder they write opera.
Quote file!!!!!!!
--
== Cameron "The Lemming" Dixon ====================== bx...@torfree.net ==
== "I used to think I was indecisive, but now, I'm not so sure..." ==
==========================================================================
Martin Nike
Peter Wilton (pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4re3ml$j...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu>, The Black Guardian
Bablyon five yesterday on channel four had some thinly veiled
story analogous to the holocaust yesterday. It was so blatant
and obvious, and the dialogue was so diabolical, I just can't
see why people rave about this show. I've seen some good episodes,
but the whole thing seems to be nothing more than a rather dull
soap opera set on Ramsey... erm, Babylon 5. I must be missing
something vital to the show...
Dr Who always had a sense of "otherworldiness", even when it was
a quarry in surrey. It never seemed to be a blatant excuse to
take X event from history and remake it with aliens!
(Apart from the historical stories)
--
Martin Nike
Correct Systems Research Group,
Dept. Of Computer Science, University Of Sheffield, England
Peter Wilton
In article <4rr00o$e...@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, Martin Nike
<m...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> writes
>Dr Who always had a sense of "otherworldiness", even when it was
>a quarry in surrey. It never seemed to be a blatant excuse to
>take X event from history and remake it with aliens!
Dr Who, when it took X event from history, generally didn't remake with
aliens, just travelled thro' time to the original event! Although there
is The Horns of Nimon, of course, history? I suppose Myth and History
are not so easily disentangled.
--
Peter Wilton
Michael Lee
> Richard Daniel Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote in article
<31DA3B...@inreach.com>...
> Especially if the verdict has been determined in advanced. It's called a
> "show trial" and is extremely useful for oppressive governments that
> want to show others that they are civilized. And if you were going to
> execute a Time Lord, even one that Galleyfrey would like to see dead,
> wouldn't you want to be seen to follow the proper form?
Good point, good point -- and it would be logical to assume that the
Daleks don't just invade and exterminate, but plan their attacks ahead of
time -- not just randomly or everywhere at once....
[Of course, I don't quite see Dalek diplomats either...though it's an
amusing thought. Seek-Locate-Negotiate]
There is certainly a story behind the Master's "Trial" and his last wish
-- we don't have it, and probably never will, but I figured that the
Doctor's explanation at the start of the movie was a rather large
simplification of the actual events...
Time Rift [Jon Blum's fan video] spoiler follows:
Just watched it last night -- I thought it was funny that it involved the
Master and the Daleks, and certainly the Daleks would be a little bit
peeved with the Master after that story.... ah, so the real reason for Jon
liking the new movie comes out.. [a proper review should follow in a
couple of days]
--
Michael Lee
http://www.execpc.com/~michaell
Iain McCord
In article <Du51v...@blaze.trentu.ca>,
Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal <cs...@blaze.trentu.ca> wrote:
>(Unless we're postulating a Doctor-Dalek dentente. Unlikely, considering
> that he's killed off their whole race, twice.)
one of the factions in a Dalek civil war, so the other side probably owed
him a favour. But that hasn't happened to the daleks in the film yet.
--
Iain M`Cord