QUESTION ABOUT DYING DAYS

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Mark Anthony Donajkowski

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
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was it just me or did the end of dying days not fit the 8th doc at all
i mean those lines were straight out of the 7th doc and the whole ending
to me was a 7th doc ending.
i am the man who gives monsters nightmares
etc etc the whole last minute thing to me this was all 7th doc stuff

jbc...@erols.com

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Aug 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/25/98
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It's just you. I had no problem hearing or seeing Paul McGann in that
novel. As far as I'm concerned (and of course this is all IMO) the
characterization was spot on.

Sean Corcoran

Mark Anthony Donajkowski

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Aug 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/25/98
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jbc...@erols.com wrote:
i didnt say teh whole novel i said the end the rest of it was 8th all the
way but the end to me was 7th doc stuff

Will Cameron

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
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On 24 Aug 1998 23:57:32 -0400, mado...@alpha.delta.edu (Mark Anthony
Donajkowski) wrote:

>was it just me or did the end of dying days not fit the 8th doc at all
>i mean those lines were straight out of the 7th doc and the whole ending
>to me was a 7th doc ending.
>i am the man who gives monsters nightmares
>etc etc the whole last minute thing to me this was all 7th doc stuff

<shrug> I thought it worked well.
He also does it in Vampire Scince (but differently).

I think a lot of the problem is that we don't really have a lot of
insight into how mcGan would have played the role, how it would have
evolved through him, etc, so when something that's a bit of a
throwback to a previous Doctor comes along it tends to stand out a
bit.
IMOHO of course...

- Will.

"All those with Psychokinesis, raise my hand." - The Doctor
----
Will Cameron
wcam...@tiac.net
To Respond Via E-Mail, Please Remove The Word AMSPAY.
from my E-Mail Address.

Leviathan

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
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In article <6rvl3s$4...@alpha.delta.edu>, mado...@alpha.delta.edu says...
>
>jbc...@erols.com wrote:

>:Mark Anthony Donajkowski wrote:
>:>
>:> was it just me or did the end of dying days not fit the 8th doc at all
>:> i mean those lines were straight out of the 7th doc and the whole ending
>:> to me was a 7th doc ending.
>:> i am the man who gives monsters nightmares
>:> etc etc the whole last minute thing to me this was all 7th doc stuff
>:
>:It's just you. I had no problem hearing or seeing Paul McGann in that

>:novel. As far as I'm concerned (and of course this is all IMO) the
>:characterization was spot on.
>
>i didnt say the whole novel i said the end the rest of it was 8th all the

>way but the end to me was 7th doc stuff

To me, that ending worked. It was nice to have a reminder that the steel of
the past was still there under the warm-fluffy Doctor we were getting to know.

--
Jonathan Andrew Sheen
http://www.leviathanstudios.com
Leviathan of the GEI (Detached.)
jsh...@leviathanstudios.com
"Pineapple Juice... Some things are just WRONG!"
-William Jefferson Clinton,
President, United States of America


R.J. Smith

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
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In article <6rtcnc$q...@alpha.delta.edu>,

Mark Anthony Donajkowski <mado...@alpha.delta.edu> wrote:
>was it just me or did the end of dying days not fit the 8th doc at all
>i mean those lines were straight out of the 7th doc and the whole ending
>to me was a 7th doc ending.
>i am the man who gives monsters nightmares
>etc etc the whole last minute thing to me this was all 7th doc stuff

Well, I had my problems with the characterisation in The Dying Days (the
Doctor getting snappy and irritable with Bernice didn't ring true to me),
but I must admit that that scene you mention was by far my favourite part
of the book and the one where I could really *hear* McGann saying the
lines. Very eighth Doctorish, IMO.

(It'd be interesting to reread The Dying Days after suffering the EDAs.
I'm sure I'd have a much higher opinion of the characterisation now :-) )

- Robert Smith?

jbc...@erols.com

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Aug 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/27/98
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Mark Anthony Donajkowski wrote:
>
> jbc...@erols.com wrote:
> : Mark Anthony Donajkowski wrote:
> : >
> : > was it just me or did the end of dying days not fit the 8th doc at all
> : > i mean those lines were straight out of the 7th doc and the whole ending
> : > to me was a 7th doc ending.
> : > i am the man who gives monsters nightmares
> : > etc etc the whole last minute thing to me this was all 7th doc stuff
> :
> : It's just you.

BTW, I *was* just kidding around when I said this.

> : I had no problem hearing or seeing Paul McGann in that


> : novel. As far as I'm concerned (and of course this is all IMO) the
> : characterization was spot on.

> i didnt say teh whole novel i said the end the rest of it was 8th all the


> way but the end to me was 7th doc stuff

Perhaps it was, but as far as I'm concerned, I think that there still is
a fair amount of the seventh Doctor still in the eighth Doctor. One of
the greatest scenes that I've read with the eighth Doc is towards the
end of "Alien Bodies" where he wonders if he really is that much
different from his last incarnation, that he really isn't just as
manipulative. He has doubts that maybe he was kidding himself that he
had changed his ways. It was a lovely little moment of insecurity on his
standpoint, one that I consider gave us a better insight into his
overall character.

Sean Corcoran

Alexander Davie

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
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R.J. Smith wrote in message <6s1sme$l...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>...

>Well, I had my problems with the characterisation in The Dying Days (the
>Doctor getting snappy and irritable with Bernice didn't ring true to me),
>but I must admit that that scene you mention was by far my favourite part
>of the book and the one where I could really *hear* McGann saying the
>lines. Very eighth Doctorish, IMO.
>


The lines were:

I am the man who gives monsters nightmares.
The Daleks call me the Bringer of Darkness
I am the Eight Man Bound
I am the Champion of Life and Time
I'm the guy with two hearts.
I make history better.
I.. AM.. the DOCTOR!!

Almost poetry isn't it??
I think the point of it was to emphisize the change from the previous Doctor
to the new one. (This is just my speculation, Lance could probably answer
this better.)
The first four lines are 7th doctor lines, and then when his face is shown
the last 3 "8th doctor" lines are spoken. It's important to realize he's
trying to make a contrast here. Bringer of Darkness/Time's Champion vs. the
guy with two hearts. In fact the whole novel is about how the Doctor has
changed, and the man that Bernice had so much affection for is gone, but he
has been replaced by something that is also wonderful, just different.

On the point about the Doctor being impatient, I have no problem with it.
One of the problem with the 8th Doctor in the BBC books is that he's TOO
nice/too perfect. This add a slightly negative slant to his new
impulsiveness, but nothing terrible. Plus the telemovie had plenty of
examples of this impatient and sometimes snide nature. for example: "Well I
thought YOU were a Doctor." and "This is no time to play Doctors and
nurses." and "*I* haven't opened the eye before".

All of these were examples of the 8th Doctor's impatience.

Alex Davie


L J Parkin

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
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>The lines were:

OK - origins time, although most people can work this out for
themselves. It's a summation of the 'Virgin Doctor', and doesn't need
to refer to any pre-NA Who.

>I am the man who gives monsters nightmares.

Cornell - 'Revelation', I think, but possibly 'Love and War'.

>The Daleks call me the Bringer of Darkness

The 'Remembrance' novel, and passim in the NAs.

>I am the Eighth Man Bound

'Christmas on a Rational Planet' and 'Lungbarrow'. Plus, it seems
to tie back to the whole past Doctors thing.

>I am the Champion of Life and Time

Time's Champion passim. The Eighth Doctor is also Life's Champion,
as per the (at that point three months away) Vampire Science.

>I'm the guy with two hearts.

From the TVM, but with echoes of Human Nature's 'two hearts and
no love'.

>I make history better.

See below

>I.. AM.. the DOCTOR!!

From the TVM, the bit that appeared in the UK trailers. Also, of course,
used at other points in the TV series and books.

>Almost poetry isn't it??
>I think the point of it was to emphisize the change from the previous Doctor
>to the new one. (This is just my speculation, Lance could probably answer
>this better.)

I'll give it a go!

This is the bit of the book that people either really love or completely
hate. It is bombastic, it is a very odd thing for the Doctor to do, but
it's also a rather powerful moment in the book - one second before
this, Benny's about to watch helplessly as the human race is wiped
out. The Martian victory is inevitable. Once the Doctor arrives, suddenly
the tables have turned - now the monsters are on the run, we're safe,
he's BACK.

>The first four lines are 7th doctor lines, and then when his face is shown
>the last 3 "8th doctor" lines are spoken.

'I make history better' is a line from Stephen Moffatt's Decalog story,
and that's the McCoy Doctor at his most ludicrously manipulative. A
fantastic story, and a fantastic line. ('I'm a Doctor of history.' 'You study
history?' 'No, I make it better'.)

>It's important to realize he's
>trying to make a contrast here. Bringer of Darkness/Time's Champion vs. the
>guy with two hearts. In fact the whole novel is about how the Doctor has
>changed, and the man that Bernice had so much affection for is gone, but he
>has been replaced by something that is also wonderful, just different.

There's that, there's also a contrast between what he *does* to monsters,
the mystery of why he does it, and finally the fact he's just so darn nice.
This isn't just some monster slayer, this is a (half) human being, a
unique *and* archetypal hero. He's using the *language* that Xznaal the
Ice Warrior will understand, the 'I have become death, destroyer of
worlds', 'look at my works ye mighty' stuff from myth and legend. What's
he's actually saying is that he's a nice guy who stands up, proves wrong,
**destroys**, the non-nice.

Lance

Paul Andinach

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
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On 29 Aug 1998, L J Parkin wrote:

> > I am the man who gives monsters nightmares.
>
> Cornell - 'Revelation', I think, but possibly 'Love and War'.

I could reread 'Revelation' before I have to take it back to the
library, I suppose, but I'm fairly certain it's not in there.

I also remember people saying it was in 'Love and War'.

Paul
--
"I think I turned into myself this morning. But I'm not sure. I
certainly don't feel any different."
- Samuel Stoddard


james ambuehl

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
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Of course, the words "I Am the Doctor" were probably best uttered by
that most wonderful Doctor of all -- Jon Pertwee -- in the very fun song
he utters by that title at the end of MORE THAN 30 YEARS IN THE TARDIS!

By the way, can anyone reprint the lyrics to that piece here? Where
might a copy of the song be available? Hopefully it's still in print?

Thanks!

-- Jim


jbc...@erols.com

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
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L J Parkin wrote:
> >Almost poetry isn't it??
> >I think the point of it was to emphisize the change from the previous Doctor
> >to the new one. (This is just my speculation, Lance could probably answer
> >this better.)
>
> I'll give it a go!
>
> This is the bit of the book that people either really love or completely
> hate. It is bombastic, it is a very odd thing for the Doctor to do, but
> it's also a rather powerful moment in the book - one second before
> this, Benny's about to watch helplessly as the human race is wiped
> out. The Martian victory is inevitable. Once the Doctor arrives, suddenly
> the tables have turned - now the monsters are on the run, we're safe,
> he's BACK.

You know, this part of the book made me grin really wide when I read it,
and gave me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. Kind of like I knew suddenly
that this really was "Doctor Who", and that this guy really was the
Doctor.

Sean Corcoran

R.J. Smith

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
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In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.98082...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>,

Paul Andinach <pand...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>On 29 Aug 1998, L J Parkin wrote:

>> > I am the man who gives monsters nightmares.

>> Cornell - 'Revelation', I think, but possibly 'Love and War'.

>I could reread 'Revelation' before I have to take it back to the
>library, I suppose, but I'm fairly certain it's not in there.

>I also remember people saying it was in 'Love and War'.

It's definitely Love and War. But don't let that stop you rereading
Revelation... :-)

- Robert Smith?

Tank

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Aug 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/31/98
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Mark Anthony Donajkowski wrote:

> was it just me or did the end of dying days not fit  the 8th doc at all
> i mean those lines were straight out of the 7th doc and the whole ending
> to me was a 7th doc ending.
> i am the man who gives monsters nightmares
> etc etc the whole last minute thing to me this was all 7th doc stuff

I loved that ending. I thought it was classic Who stuff. And tying it into
the previous NAs really worked for me. I can just really see PaulDoc saying
"I am what monsters have nightmares about", etc. Can't you just imagine a
Godzilla sized Doctor? :-)
    - Tank

--
Visit The Ninth Doctor's Home Page at            
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/doctor9/homepage.htm

The Master: (To Draconian Emperor) Nobody could be more devoted
            to the cause of peace than I. As a commissioner of
            Earth's inter-planetary police I have devoted my
            life to the causes of law and order. And law and
            order can only exist in a time of peace.
The Doctor: (To The Master) Are you feeling all right, old chap?
     - From Doctor Who "Frontier in Space"
 


TARDIS66

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Aug 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/31/98
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>
>Of course, the words "I Am the Doctor" were probably best uttered by
>that most wonderful Doctor of all -- Jon Pertwee -- in the very fun song
>he utters by that title at the end of MORE THAN 30 YEARS IN THE TARDIS!

>
>By the way, can anyone reprint the lyrics to that piece here?

Here goes nothing:

I cross the void beyond the mind
The empty space that circles time
I see where others stumble blind
To seek a truth they'll never find
Eternal wisdom is my guide.
I am the Doctor!

Through cosmic waste the TARDIS flies.
To taste the secret source of life.
A presence science can't deny exists.
Within outside behind
Latitude of the human mind
I am the Doctor!

My voyage bisects the course of time.
Who knows we say, but are you right?
Whose search is deep to find the light
That glows so darkly in the night.
Toward that point I guide my flight.

As fingers move to end mankind
Metallic teeth begin to grind
With sword of truth I turn to fight
The Satanic powers of the night.
Is your faith before your mind?
Know me. Am I the Doctor?

And if it isn't right, it's close. Perhaps soon I'll embarrass myself and post
what I thought the lyrics were.

Rob Claffie - The Knights of the White Guardian
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2145/

I'm half-British. On my mother's side.

TARDIS66

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Sep 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/1/98
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>
>I loved that ending. I thought it was classic Who stuff. And tying it into
>the previous NAs really worked for me. I can just really see PaulDoc saying
>"I am what monsters have nightmares about", etc. Can't you just imagine a
>Godzilla sized Doctor? :-)
>    - Tank

Wasn't that Colin Baker?

Slake

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Sep 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/1/98
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TARDIS66 wrote:

> > Can't you just imagine a
> >Godzilla sized Doctor? :-)
>

> Wasn't that Colin Baker?

Look! Coming out of the sea; it's....

...Godzilla,


Queen of the Dessert!
;-)

--
'Slake'
ICQ:8365417
_
"Soak me a chicken, I'll be back for Hogswatch."

Daniel Gooley

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Sep 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/1/98
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L J Parkin

> 'I make history better' is a line from Stephen Moffatt's Decalog story,
> and that's the McCoy Doctor at his most ludicrously manipulative. A
> fantastic story, and a fantastic line. ('I'm a Doctor of history.' 'You
study
> history?' 'No, I make it better'.)

"The History Doctors"?

Danny

TARDIS66

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Sep 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/1/98
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>
>Look! Coming out of the sea; it's....
>
>...Godzilla,

>
>Queen of the Dessert!

Roar, baby, roar!
You go, Godzilla!

S_Mo...@msn.com

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Sep 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/2/98
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In article <01bdd556$6213a400$72ab...@fmtasm0d.deetya.gov.au>,

At one point I was going to call it "History MD" but I thought that was a bit
silly. Even sillier was my idea of sticking closer to the spirit of the
original show's titles by calling it "The Curse Of Fatal Death" I still
rather like that one.

Steven Moffat (Or Stephen Moffatt as Launce Perkin would have us believe!)

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

L J Parkin

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Sep 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/2/98
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>Steven Moffat (Or Stephen Moffatt as Launce Perkin would have us believe!)

Oops. Sorry.

Launce

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