Caroline Skinner's abrupt departure

[The Coca Cola Kid]

Interesting ...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/03/13/doctor-whos-executive-producer-steps-down-with-immediate-effect/

' Caroline Skinner has stepped down as executive producer of Doctor Who
with immediate effect.
' We had heard that Skinner and Steven Moffat enjoyed a very public row
at the BBC showcase event last month, and this decision appears to be at
least tied into this, if not rooted in it. There have been several reasons
for the argument mooted, but as yet I have not been able to verify any of
them – so I’m not believing any of them. Yet. '

Does anyone here know to what row they are referring?

[Agamemnon]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:khr2am$3l3$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Interesting ...
>
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/03/13/doctor-whos-executive-producer-steps-down-with-immediate-effect/
>
> ' Caroline Skinner has stepped down as executive producer of Doctor
> Who with immediate effect.
> ' We had heard that Skinner and Steven Moffat enjoyed a very public
> row at the BBC showcase event last month, and this decision appears to be
> at least tied into this, if not rooted in it. There have been several
> reasons for the argument mooted, but as yet I have not been able to verify

> any of them - so I'm not believing any of them. Yet. '

>
> Does anyone here know to what row they are referring?

Might be the one where some BBC exec said that there wasn't going to be any
new stuff for the anniversary apart from the special and Mark Gattis'
docudrama and Moffat said that this was not true.

Since they're starting to film the anniversary special now, that probably
means that series 8 won't start until 2014 if there is a series 8 at all.

[The Coca Cola Kid]

Check out this interview with Moffat and Skinner ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_bWyzeTFGPI&feature=endscreen

Wow. Just, wow.

[The Doctor]

In article <Q5KdnSdy0IzmrtzM...@eclipse.net.uk>,

Hopefully DW airs in 2014!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 amnd 53 on Atheism
I am a New World Order Enemy - I am an enemy of totalitarians and dictators.

[Monsieur Tabernac]

There aren't many smiles behind those jabs. Kind of uncomfortable.

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:khrpf0$ig9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Check out this interview with Moffat and Skinner ...
>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bWyzeTFGPI
>
> Wow. Just, wow.

That vid was just what I was looking for. The news about the argument and
photos and minimal background material was indicative but not quite enough.

I'm fairly good at personality analysis and guessed there was a major
personality clash. They're both strong types and I can't imagine them
getting along very well for very long. Think Liam Fox and Kerry McCarthy
locked in a room and you would have an idea.

What a happy couple...

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[Yousuf Khan]

What a lovely couple, they seem so happy together. ;)

Yousuf Khan

[Raymond Daley]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:khrpf0$ig9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Check out this interview with Moffat and Skinner ...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_bWyzeTFGPI&feature=endscreen
>
> Wow. Just, wow.

Arms folded most of the interview, gets really annoyed when he tries to
"help" her with a question addressed directly at her.
(He's being an INCREDIBLE dick there because the limelight shifts away from
him for a few moments.)

All that hand wringing from her when asked how she felt about joining the
show too, she's saying how much she loves it but her body language is
screaming "I fucking HATE being here"

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"Raymond Daley" <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pFm0t.28090$zh5....@fx22.fr7...

They're both being dicks. They're just extreme personality and gender types.
I'm not going to excuse Moffat for his faults but giving Caroline a free
pass just because she's a woman and you don't get the gendered power plays
going on is a mistake. She's as much up her own ass as Moffat is.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[The Doctor]

In article <dhi3k81kr9461coic...@4ax.com>,

You got the idea.

[The Coca Cola Kid]

[The Coca Cola Kid]

"Charles E. Hardwidge" wrote in message news:khst13$ded$1...@dont-email.me...

>They're both being dicks. They're just extreme personality and gender
>types.
>I'm not going to excuse Moffat for his faults but giving Caroline a free
>pass just because she's a woman and you don't get the gendered power plays
>going on is a mistake.

Skinner: 'So, you do not have a life-time phobia of statues, then?'
Moffat: 'I do not actually no ...'
Skinner: 'Well, I kind of imagined that, hm ...'
Moffat: 'No, I have a life-time phobia of shop dummies ... ' *shoots her a
glance* ' ... which are also supplied ... ' *looks directly at her* ' ... in
Doctor Who ...'

One might get the impression that Skinner was needling him with that phobia
comment, or it might have been just a poorly timed joke that fell flat.
Either way, there does not seem to be any doubt that Moffat took offence at
her distracting him from basking in his reminiscence, and that his reaction
was vicious and personal.

> She's as much up her own ass as Moffat is.

Er ... did you really need to go there, Charles? It will probably take days
to get that mental image out of my mind.

[Agamemnon]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:khtrpb$crd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

> "Charles E. Hardwidge" wrote in message
> news:khst13$ded$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>>They're both being dicks. They're just extreme personality and gender
>>types.
>>I'm not going to excuse Moffat for his faults but giving Caroline a free
>>pass just because she's a woman and you don't get the gendered power plays
>>going on is a mistake.
>
> Skinner: 'So, you do not have a life-time phobia of statues, then?'
> Moffat: 'I do not actually no ...'
> Skinner: 'Well, I kind of imagined that, hm ...'
> Moffat: 'No, I have a life-time phobia of shop dummies ... ' *shoots her a
> glance* ' ... which are also supplied ... ' *looks directly at her* ' ...
> in Doctor Who ...'
>
> One might get the impression that Skinner was needling him with that
> phobia comment, or it might have been just a poorly timed joke that fell
> flat. Either way, there does not seem to be any doubt that Moffat took
> offence at her distracting him from basking in his reminiscence, and that
> his reaction was vicious and personal.

Looks to me that Moffat is trying to look and sound enthusiastic and Skinner
is totally disinterested in the discussion and doesn't really have any
enthusiasm for the show at all.

She was probably put on the show as a technocrat and I don't think she has
any idea what Moffat's reference to shop dummies is actually about. If she's
going to give him an obvious feed line then she should know what to expect.
Moffat can ably play the Eric Morecombe part but Skinner is no Ernie Wise.
That's where the problem lies. Conflict of personalities.

Moffat has a comedy background and is using that to make the discussion
sound interesting by taking the piss out of the question. I don't think he's
any more interested in it than she is but Skinner is taking it too seriously
and Moffat's comments keep catching her out. He's probably the same way at
production meetings when dealing with lame managerial and bureaucratic clap
trap and excuses he keeps being given for why they can't do this or that
when it's perfectly obvious that certain members of management don't have
the intellectual capacity to understand the issues no matter how well
they've been explained and don't have a clue what's going on in the
organisation they're supposed to be running or don't care about the opinions
of others and only their own position so he takes the piss out of them. That
might be why Skinner left.

[The Doctor]

In article <nu2dnU55DJf1GN_M...@eclipse.net.uk>,

10/10 Ag.

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:khtrpb$crd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

I was looking at their cultural tags and microexpressions so wasn't really
paying attention to what they were saying. Your analysis of the verbal
messages and behaviour is cool.

Men and women can be aggressive in different ways. Men often shout and wave
their arms around like Moffat did. Skinner's glowering away is also
aggressive and, I would lay money on it, matched by her indirect shit
spreading off camera.

One thing that bothers me isn't just people arguing all the time but sexism
on both sides of the fence. Men can be dicks (and frequently are) but the
whiny innocent act some women put on doesn't hold water either. If men are
blinkered women are biased. That's why a lot of women think men's
conversation is boring and a lot of men think women are irrational.

Here's an essay by Deborah Tannen on gender markers. She writes well and
makes some good observations. I strongly agree with key aspects of her
critique but she also reinforces her own biases. So, yes. Women can be dicks
(and frequently are) only in different ways to men.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/nyt062093.htm

I've probably picked too many colourful metaphors off the Americans but I
also find reading the aggressive emphasis of what passes for most online
conversation in the UK quite appalling...

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:nu2dnU55DJf1GN_M...@eclipse.net.uk...

Sounds reasonable...

Skinner also has her own ideas and can be controlling. When she got her
hands on The Fades that's how she acted. Both Skinner and Moffat wanted
total control instead of working together to magnify each others positives
and make up for each others weaknesses. This was a good relationship on
paper but flew apart in practice.

This doesn't say much for the quality of management at the BBC. If they
fumbled this critical teamwork arrangement what else are they fumbling?

Maybe it's me but I feel there's too many egos with too many agendas around
today. Everyone wants to be the big chief - an obnoxious cocktail of the
class system and the school playground. It's very immature.


--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[The Doctor]

Caroline just did not look interested hanging out
with Moffat. She needs a squeeze.

[Agamemnon]

"Charles E. Hardwidge" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:khv9p7$a9j$1...@dont-email.me...

The problem is down to the fact that British management is so incompetent
that it's incapable of delegating responsibility or carrying out the roles
that they might have been delegated. It's like a school football team were
every player tries to go for the ball at the same time and they all bunch
together and run in unison after it instead of staying in their designated
positions and doing what they're best at so they're always letting in easy
goals and are unable to score themselves because they always pass the ball
to their best friends and not to someone whose in a better position to get a
goal or not being marked.

Doctor Who can't be run properly by 3 executive producers taking a vote on
everything. Moffat is the only one who has any clue about the show or the
way it's going and he's therefore top dog. He should be left alone to get on
with his job and when it comes to editing scripts that's the job of the
script editor to do themselves not for them to have to cower down to Moffat
or RTD before that for their approval on every single change which basically
means nothing gets changed at all. The same goes for other departments like
costume, make-up and special effects. You can't have the costume department
telling whoever's doing sound effects how they should be made and making-up,
lighting, and scenery backing them up in a vote but this is exactly how
production meetings end up going. Complete incompetence.

>
> --
> Charles E. Hardwidge

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message

news:Oe6dnWsCz8EsxN7M...@eclipse.net.uk...

> "Charles E. Hardwidge" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:khv9p7$a9j$1...@dont-email.me...
>>

>> Maybe it's me but I feel there's too many egos with too many agendas
>> around today. Everyone wants to be the big chief - an obnoxious cocktail
>> of the class system and the school playground. It's very immature.
>
> The problem is down to the fact that British management is so incompetent
> that it's incapable of delegating responsibility or carrying out the roles
> that they might have been delegated. It's like a school football team were
> every player tries to go for the ball at the same time and they all bunch
> together and run in unison after it instead of staying in their designated
> positions and doing what they're best at so they're always letting in easy
> goals and are unable to score themselves because they always pass the ball
> to their best friends and not to someone whose in a better position to get
> a goal or not being marked.
>
> Doctor Who can't be run properly by 3 executive producers taking a vote on
> everything. Moffat is the only one who has any clue about the show or the
> way it's going and he's therefore top dog. He should be left alone to get
> on with his job and when it comes to editing scripts that's the job of the
> script editor to do themselves not for them to have to cower down to
> Moffat or RTD before that for their approval on every single change which
> basically means nothing gets changed at all. The same goes for other
> departments like costume, make-up and special effects. You can't have the
> costume department telling whoever's doing sound effects how they should
> be made and making-up, lighting, and scenery backing them up in a vote but
> this is exactly how production meetings end up going. Complete
> incompetence.

I think some men just need to grow up and get a sense of context which they
are either not taught in school or biologically incapable of. Women? They
can prop up the establishment and not always get that life isn't a perpetual
invitation for a group meeting. Case studies suggest this gender confusion
happens in organisations with monopoly funding...

As an experiment:

If you walk into a room and look like a man you will be treated like a man.
Be a dick and backslap and you're in the club. Tell the men you were
actually born a woman and they will stop taking your opinion seriously and
be snotty if you dare to have one. Women will look visibly confused not
because of how you look but if your behaviour doesn't default to stability
and consensus. God help you if you say something controversial to the group
mind because ALL the women will jump on you in 1/1000th of a second ALL at
the same time which they wouldn't have done before.

This kinda thing is interesting because it shows up how people live in
almost entirely different parallel worlds. They just don't notice because
they're so used to living within the bubble they're born into.

I dunno...

I think you're right about British management. The US *gets* leadership and
teamwork so you can have a strong director *and* writing team. There's also
a much higher quality of programming and gender equality in the market. The
UK? Ugh. The new shows which are aping America are really mediocre and the
Moffat and Skinner bust up shows how far behind some people are. I just
think it's the rot of the class system and nimbyism playing out. In the end
it does nobody any good and destroys the potential that's there.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[The Doctor]

In article <Oe6dnWsCz8EsxN7M...@eclipse.net.uk>,

Get ready for Peter J Ross to comment.

[BW]

On Mar 14, 11:45 pm, "Charles E. Hardwidge" <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>
> I'm fairly good at personality analysis and guessed there was a major
> personality clash. They're both strong types and I can't imagine them
> getting along very well for very long. Think Liam Fox and Kerry McCarthy
> locked in a room and you would have an idea.
>
> What a happy couple...
>

Or Liam and Noel Gallagher?

[The Coca Cola Kid]

"Charles E. Hardwidge" wrote in message news:khvr22$isc$1...@dont-email.me...

>"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>news:Oe6dnWsCz8EsxN7M...@eclipse.net.uk...

<snip>

Excellent and thoughtful analyses, from both of you, as well as some others
in this thread. These are the types of quality posts that I love to see in
rec.arts.drwho, even if I might not agree with them one hundred percent.
One thing that begs the question is why Russell T Davies never seemed
to be plagued with the same problems that are happening under Steven
Moffatt's tenure. Did something suddenly and drastically change recently
that caused the BBC to change their attitude towards Doctor Who and how it
is being run? Moffat himself said in this video from last summer that 'if
the show is working, then they (the BBC upper management) leave you alone'
...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=olC8cXUzZYE&feature=endscreen

Skinner often seems to come across as aloof and distracted, whilst she is
waiting for her turn to speak. But, when she did speak, I sensed that she
was genuinely enthusiastic about the work that she was doing on the show. I
think that there may definitely be some credence to the theory about her and
Moffat having clashing personality types.
One of the things that has really struck me, especially the past couple
of years, is how unconvincing even the professional actors have been when
they were relaying canned and scripted enthusiasm whilst promoting the show.
That is why my jaw dropped when he was openly chiding her, in the later
interview, for not seeming enthusiastic enough.

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:ki3ljv$41p$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Conversation has been good hasn't it! :-)

I tried writing a reply but after a screenful found I was just making a long
list of round the houses observations and couldn't get to the point.

I have this project thingy I've been pushing and found out, especially
within large organisations, you can begin running into fraying policy and
practice and personalities become more of an issue. I sometimes think a
large part of this is down to people lacking self awareness and negotiation
skills. I don't know - a sense of common ownership?

I've been researching for a legal action and actually did find a lawyer with
specialist experience but... they didn't pass my idiot test and I had sense
they lacked sharpness and compromised cases due to poor research. On the
recommendation of a friend I think I've found a lawyer who is a much better
fit with my goals.

I was asking myself some questions this weekend. What am I trying to build?
What are they buying? I wonder if these questions get in the way of value.

Oh, I dunno. I just think some people don't like change...

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[The Coca Cola Kid]

For what it is worth, I have found this ...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/68150-private-eye-doctor-who-bust-up.html

' Skinner had in fact been absent from the programme's offices since the
end of February, after she and show-runner Steven Moffat had an extremely
noisy and public falling-out during a party at the BBC Worldwide Showcase, a
programme sales festival in Liverpool, which ended with Moffat being led
away by colleagues while bellowing at Skinner that "you are erased from
Doctor Who!"
' The bust-up came as a surprise to colleagues, who had noted the very
close working relationship that had developed between Skinner and Moffat
since she joined the programme in 2011.'

[Charles E. Hardwidge]

"The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:kijdr8$efo$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Thanks. I think I did catch this but, yes, how extraordinary.

In the absence of some juicy gossip to nitpick I'll share some links of
discussions on the dongle scandal and the cauldron of online feminism.

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/
http://www.newstatesman.com/voices/2013/03/theres-no-point-online-feminism-if-its-exclusive-mean-girls-club
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_aggression

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

[�G�l�k Z.L.F Buday AKA The Black Jester AKA The Voltairian]

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:32:35 -0500, in rec.arts.drwho "The Coca Cola Kid" <thecoca...@gmail.com> wrote:

�Interesting ...

�

A regatta? No, not sure. Explain.