The Waters of Mars (review)
Agamemnon
So it seems that this Doctor likes to get it in with the older birds. Sarah
Jane, Donna, River Dance, I mean Song, and now Adelaide. Well all of the
them are better than Rose.
Anyway. The way it started I thought might have been watching an episode of
Defying Gravity by mistake, well actually no I didn't but you get the jist.
It was played like Apollo 13 crossed with 2001 A Space Odyssey, crossed with
Eastenders. How can they set it 50 years into the future and still have
white noise snow storms on the TV when the reception fails, when everything
would have gone digital by then and what you should have seen is blocking or
blurring. On top of that they were talking to each other in real time so
there should have been something like a 5 minute delay in hearing each
others reply for two way communication. Or do they have sub-space radio by
2059 considering they have warp-diver 30 years later?
After the phone call nonsense it began to improve rapidly after opening
tittles. But then RTD has to introduce his obligatory Gay propaganda into
the story as usual, about some Gay Russian and his husband.
Then they showed two members the Mars crew doing some stuff in the garden
but whereas the outside shots showed that the domes were transparent, the
inside shots all had metal cladding on the inside of the domes to block out
all the light about from a few stray rays you could see through the cracks.
And then the guy changed into a water monster after he ate a carrot. So how
come no one ate any carrots or other stuff from the garden before?
Anyway after that it was the usual run around with a whole load of nonsense
with the Doctor zapping the robot with his sonic screwdriver and it
developing super jet engines to make it go faster. Yer, like where did extra
fuel needed to do propel it come from?
If Adelaide was born in on 12 May 1999 and her parents died in the Dalek
invasion of 2008, how can she have been 10 when this occurred unless they
are counting time in the womb? But then again the Doctor said the invasion
was 50 years ago, so is it supposed to have occurred in 2009?
All in all the story wasn't bad apart from the soap at the start and the Ood
popping up for no credible reason whatsoever just before the Doctor goes
back into the TARDIS at the end and then the Doctor panicking about
realising he is going to did, like why? He's a Time Lord. He can regenerate.
If he has now changed time (3 survivers instead of none not counting the
suicide), then maybe that has stopped the Time War from ever happening also.
8/10
Alan Sailsbury
> And then the guy changed into a water
> monster after he ate a carrot. So how come no one ate any carrots or
> other stuff from the garden before?
It was explained that the filter had stopped the virus. The filter that
was removed that day. You really should pay attention instead of writing
your notes. It wasn't eating the carrot that changed him. It was the
WATER he swilled it under. The clue was in the title, which is why the
episode wasn't called The Carrots of Mars.
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
Pathetic, wasn't it. No filtration system is going to stop the spread
of viruses - to do so it would effectively have to prevent the flow of
water.
Why wasn't the water tested for viruses before the station was built;
and at regular intervals during it's operation. That is standard
procedure even here on Earth.
What happened to the construction crew? Why weren't they affected by
the virus? There would have to be contact with the water in order to
install the extraction and filtration system.
Monsieur Tabernac
When you're the first humans on Mars, there usually isn't a
construction crew that precedes you. :)
Actually, it is mentioned that the base was built by robots (from
which the annoying Gadget machine was cobbled together). They
probably weren't affected by viruses.
Agamemnon
"Alan Sailsbury" <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote in message
news:wKidnabBA52ueZ3W...@bt.com...
It was the carrot that contained the water and it was that that changed him,
so obviously the water had already got into the system for long enough for
it to be absorbed into the carrot.
Adam
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:Rr-dnZXdT8AqwpzW...@eclipse.net.uk...
Maybe there was a drop of unfiltered water on the carrot when he ate it.
Does it really matter?
Ignis Fatuus
And didn't bother sampling the water to check it's suitability for
human consumption. Curious, gravity-defying water that jumps out of
it's reservoir and pours down on the roof of the structure like a
waterfall. Self-replicating water that pours continuously from every
orifice of it's victims.
I can't see the Gadget building all this on it's own - particularly as
it needs a human handler. Presumably the rest of the robotic crew
packed up and left for home after the humans arrived.
Alan Sailsbury
sigh. You miss the obvious every time don't you Aggy? Look again. He
washed the carrot under a tap. Water was on the carrot. That's how the
water affected him. The carrot wasn't the cause. They could have shown
him drinking a cup of water but showing a fresh carrot was just a
shorthand way to show the viewer that their Mars farm was paying off.
Alan Sailsbury
There's no maybe about it. Did no one else notice that he WASHED the
carrot? That's how water got into his system.
Alan Sailsbury
Or perhaps they were just dumped, obsolete? Or in storage? Or had been
dismantled for something else? Use your imagination instead of expecting
everything on a plate for you! It doesn't matter to anyone but you Iggy,
and you're just determined to nit-pick for the hell of it aren't you?
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
>Adam wrote:
I'm told you can also drink it neat without carrots...
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
I probably wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't for all the fuss they
made about bicycles. If it's too expensive to transport a bike then
could they really afford to ditch an entire robotic construction crew?
There again... with transport costs at such a premium, why design a
structure with so many pointless corridors? The amount of material
poured into vacant structures was quite colossal - and yet there was
no room for a bike.
BTW Have you worked out yet why they didn't bother testing the water?
My Granny worked for NASA and she always told me to boil everything.
Of course her main job was testing extra-terrestrial waters for any
signs of life or it's constituent chemicals...
Alan Sailsbury
I suggest you write and complain to RTD. I couldn't give a fuck.
pbo...@aol.com
> "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
Just watched the Confidential, and it included a scene from the
episode in which Yuri was eating a carrot - so either the carrots per
se were safe, or RTD has set up the return of the flood creatures (as
he calls them).
Phil
pbo...@aol.com
What do you mean "ditch"? The robots had to be transported anyway -
the base needed to be built. If anything it makes complete sense for
the robots to be designed as modules that could be broken down to make
useful human-operated equipment when the crew arrived, since it would
save the fuel and material costs associated with sending out some
supplies.
> BTW Have you worked out yet why they didn't bother testing the water?
> My Granny worked for NASA and she always told me to boil everything.
Iggy, it's an alien virus (if indeed it's a virus - they didn't
actually run tests on it, so for all they know it could have been a
bacterium or larger parasite); why should it necessarily either be as
small as terrestrial viruses or detectable/controllable using standard
purifying techniques?
Phil
Ignis Fatuus
Are you suggesting that they spent all that money building empty
corridors and then forgot to run tests on the first sample of
extra-terrestrial water ever encountered.
NASA's spending gazillions on trying to find some extra-terrestrial
water so that it can do just that. The standard procedure is to
collect a sample, identify anything that's Not Water (ie H2O) and then
analyse the shit out of it.
BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
The Doctor
Thanks Ag.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.myspace.com/502748630
Merry Christmas 2009 and Happy New Year 2010
The Face of Po
Agamemnon got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> After the phone call nonsense it began to improve rapidly after opening
> tittles. But then RTD has to introduce his obligatory Gay propaganda into
> the story as usual, about some Gay Russian and his husband.
FYI, "gay" isn't a proper noun.
I didn't notice this line, but both you and today's Metro seemed
bothered by it. What's the problem? It's a crew of nine, so it's quite
reasonable that they're not all straight, white, English men.
> And then the guy changed into a water monster after he ate a carrot. So how
> come no one ate any carrots or other stuff from the garden before?
As others have pointed out, it wasn't the carrots - it was the water he
washed them under. The camera was specifically aimed to show them going
under the tap, rather than pointing at the speaker.
> If Adelaide was born in on 12 May 1999 and her parents died in the Dalek
> invasion of 2008, how can she have been 10 when this occurred unless they
> are counting time in the womb? But then again the Doctor said the invasion
> was 50 years ago, so is it supposed to have occurred in 2009?
Maybe they've remembered the 12 months that were skipped in "Aliens of
London"?
> All in all the story wasn't bad apart from the soap at the start and the Ood
> popping up for no credible reason whatsoever
This was effectively part of the teaser/cliffhanger for a future
episode. Just like "knock four times", it doesn't explain everything
immediately.
> just before the Doctor goes
> back into the TARDIS at the end and then the Doctor panicking about
> realising he is going to did, like why? He's a Time Lord. He can regenerate.
Maybe he believes that his number of regenerations is finite.
--
Happiness will prevail
pbo...@aol.com
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:44:01 -0800 (PST), "pbow...@aol.com"
No, I'm suggesting that no one ran tests on the 'virus' once they knew
it was there - so had no way of knowing whether it was a virus,
bacterium or wholly alien form of life. It's generally a lot easier to
find things when testing water quality when you have some idea what
you're looking for. On Earth we have water purifying procedures that
deal with all sorts of waterborne nasties from cholera to giardia, but
none of our water treatment systems are set up to deal with anything
entirely unfamiliar, nor is it clear how we'd set them up *to* do so.
Besides which, detecting Martian life with any certainty has
repeatedly proven difficult, if not impossible, with modern techniques
available on both Mars and Earth. We're still unable to recognise
whether imperfections in a meteorite are fossils or the result of
inorganic processes, while the Viking tests found chemical evidence
that could be the signature of life, but was more probably a result of
weathering of some sort - a similar story applies to the discovery of
methane pockets in the Martian atmosphere.
Especially if the original surveyors were robotic, as they'd probably
have to be to identify a suitable location for a base, it would be a
very difficult task to identify the signature of any Martian microbes
- not to mention that Gusev Crater has no surface or even near-surface
ice that current rovers can detect, since the whole area's been
covered in lava since any water last flowed on Mars - odd choice to
set the story, actually, since mission scientists were initially very
disappointed with what Spirit found there.
> NASA's spending gazillions on trying to find some extra-terrestrial
> water so that it can do just that. The standard procedure is to
> collect a sample, identify anything that's Not Water (ie H2O) and then
> analyse the shit out of it.
>
> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
Whatever the flood parasite was, it was selective - there was a line
where the Doctor pointed out that it was 'clever' for targeting
humans, rather than everything it ran across (such as the birds). Then
again, why should it affect carrots anyway? We aren't affected by
potato blight, and cabbages don't suffer from malaria.
Phil
pbo...@aol.com
<gkenning...@potatojunkie.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
> Agamemnon got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>
> > After the phone call nonsense it began to improve rapidly after opening
> > tittles. But then RTD has to introduce his obligatory Gay propaganda into
> > the story as usual, about some Gay Russian and his husband.
>
> FYI, "gay" isn't a proper noun.
>
> I didn't notice this line, but both you and today's Metro seemed
> bothered by it. What's the problem? It's a crew of nine, so it's quite
> reasonable that they're not all straight, white, English men.
It's certainly not at all implausible - thee are about four gay guys
in a course of 13 I've been on recently. I quite liked Yuri's
anecdote, but it did rather give the sense that RTD wanted to write it
just to insert a gay reference; I don't have any reason to mind, but
he's not nornally quite so gratuitous.
What did Metro have to say? I don't go into London at weekends so
missed that.
> > All in all the story wasn't bad apart from the soap at the start and the Ood
> > popping up for no credible reason whatsoever
>
> This was effectively part of the teaser/cliffhanger for a future
> episode. Just like "knock four times", it doesn't explain everything
> immediately.
It was odd that the Doctor didn't seem surprised by it. And how and
when did the Doctor work out that "he will knock four times" had
something to do with his death?
> > just before the Doctor goes
> > back into the TARDIS at the end and then the Doctor panicking about
> > realising he is going to did, like why? He's a Time Lord. He can regenerate.
>
> Maybe he believes that his number of regenerations is finite.
Maybe he just likes looking in the mirror...
Phil
The Doctor
Michael Urban
pbo...@aol.com <pbo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>It's certainly not at all implausible - thee are about four gay guys
>in a course of 13 I've been on recently. I quite liked Yuri's
>anecdote, but it did rather give the sense that RTD wanted to write it
>just to insert a gay reference; I don't have any reason to mind, but
>he's not nornally quite so gratuitous.
The scene is there so that a character can chatter more or less
meaninglessly about something while we watch something creepy
happening in the background that he can't see. And his chatter
about his brother and brother-in-law does reinforce the
separation-from-family theme that runs throughout. If it had been
about his brother and brother's wife, nobody would have said
anything; indeed, if there was a 'social purpose' to the anecdote,
it is that Yuri is so matter-of-fact about his brother and
brother-in-law.
The Face of Po
> On 16 Nov, 16:28, The Face of Po
> <gkenning...@potatojunkie.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>> Agamemnon got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>>
>> > After the phone call nonsense it began to improve rapidly after opening
>> > tittles. But then RTD has to introduce his obligatory Gay propaganda into
>> > the story as usual, about some Gay Russian and his husband.
>>
>> FYI, "gay" isn't a proper noun.
>>
>> I didn't notice this line, but both you and today's Metro seemed
>> bothered by it. What's the problem? It's a crew of nine, so it's quite
>> reasonable that they're not all straight, white, English men.
>
> It's certainly not at all implausible - thee are about four gay guys
> in a course of 13 I've been on recently. I quite liked Yuri's
> anecdote, but it did rather give the sense that RTD wanted to write it
> just to insert a gay reference; I don't have any reason to mind, but
> he's not nornally quite so gratuitous.
>
> What did Metro have to say? I don't go into London at weekends so
> missed that.
I can't remember, and left it on the train. But I know that it referred
to this bit as an "in-joke", and my SO wondered aloud how it was an
injoke - a reference to some real-life person? A nod to another
episode? Or a belief that all these "gay references" form a running
joke?
And though I've rewatched the beginning on IPlayer, I still can't find
the line in question. So right now I'm analysing how a short,
free-paper article that I don't remember analysed a line that I don't
remember.
>> > All in all the story wasn't bad apart from the soap at the start and the Ood
>> > popping up for no credible reason whatsoever
>>
>> This was effectively part of the teaser/cliffhanger for a future
>> episode. Just like "knock four times", it doesn't explain everything
>> immediately.
>
> It was odd that the Doctor didn't seem surprised by it. And how and
> when did the Doctor work out that "he will knock four times" had
> something to do with his death?
I compared this bit to Arthur Dent's "Stavromula Beta" knowledge -
something specific is going to happen before he dies, and as long as he
avoids this event, he won't die yet.
--
Happiness will prevail
The Face of Po
> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
Maybe they did, but not visibly before Andy bit into one and dropped
them. But as carrots don't walk as fast as humans, they couldn't play
as big a part in what followed.
--
Happiness will prevail
Ignis Fatuus
As I said - you're looking for anything that's NOT WATER. This is a
Space Mission not a domestic filtration plant (which amounts to more
than a little kettle filter anyway). The first minute samples of ET
water will be subject to close and rigorous analysis in laboratory
conditions for any traces of compounds which might suggest the
presence of living organisms. We Know this because NASA tells us that
this what will happen.
> On Earth
But this Wasn't On Earth; and the whole point of space exploration is
finding out what's out there. You don't start sending a bunch of
market gardeners to grow carrots on Mars until you've sent scientists
to conduct rigorous investigations. The robotic construction crew
could presumably have collected a few samples for analysis.
> we have water purifying procedures that
>deal with all sorts of waterborne nasties from cholera to giardia, but
>none of our water treatment systems are set up to deal with anything
>entirely unfamiliar, nor is it clear how we'd set them up *to* do so.
Highly complex and sophisticated systems that occupy acres and come
complete with scientist equipped to analyse the product and identify
any potentially harmful content.
Of course the most obvious method of producing a 'pure' water supply
is distillation. I wonder if I should suggest it to NASA?
>
>Besides which, detecting Martian life with any certainty has
>repeatedly proven difficult, if not impossible, with modern techniques
>available on both Mars and Earth.
That's because we don't have any samples of Martian water to work
with. You do need to collect a sample before you can analyse it - and
the machines that we send don't have all the sophisticated techniques
of a fully equipped laboratory (such as the one I glimpsed in WoM)
with Human operators.
> We're still unable to recognise
>whether imperfections in a meteorite are fossils or the result of
>inorganic processes, while the Viking tests found chemical evidence
>that could be the signature of life, but was more probably a result of
>weathering of some sort - a similar story applies to the discovery of
>methane pockets in the Martian atmosphere.
>
>Especially if the original surveyors were robotic, as they'd probably
>have to be to identify a suitable location for a base, it would be a
>very difficult task to identify the signature of any Martian microbes
>- not to mention that Gusev Crater has no surface or even near-surface
>ice that current rovers can detect, since the whole area's been
>covered in lava since any water last flowed on Mars - odd choice to
>set the story, actually, since mission scientists were initially very
>disappointed with what Spirit found there.
>
>> NASA's spending gazillions on trying to find some extra-terrestrial
>> water so that it can do just that. The standard procedure is to
>> collect a sample, identify anything that's Not Water (ie H2O) and then
>> analyse the shit out of it.
>>
>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>
>Whatever the flood parasite was, it was selective - there was a line
>where the Doctor pointed out that it was 'clever' for targeting
>humans, rather than everything it ran across (such as the birds). Then
>again, why should it affect carrots anyway? We aren't affected by
>potato blight, and cabbages don't suffer from malaria.
>
You're right. Viruses tend to be very closely matched to the genetic
material of the host. Of course this is the first time the Martian
virus had met a human being...
Still I don't suppose it would have been quite so effective if the
carrots had started spewing water and sulking in corners.
The Face of Po
> In article <85e2d60a-e148-461f...@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> pbo...@aol.com <pbo...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>It's certainly not at all implausible - thee are about four gay guys
>>in a course of 13 I've been on recently. I quite liked Yuri's
>>anecdote, but it did rather give the sense that RTD wanted to write it
>>just to insert a gay reference; I don't have any reason to mind, but
>>he's not nornally quite so gratuitous.
>
> The scene is there so that a character can chatter more or less
> meaninglessly about something while we watch something creepy
> happening in the background that he can't see.
Thanks for that, now I know which scene the fuss is about. I hadn't
been remembered what Yuri was saying because, as you mention, he's
telling us irrelevant stuff while the interesting bit (with accompanying
music) is going on behind him.
--
Happiness will prevail
Alan Sailsbury
FFS Iggy. What a dumb question. It's like asking why carrots don't catch
the flu! Obviously the virus only affects humans. The main reason being
for dramatic purposes. IT'S ONLY A STORY.
Monsieur Tabernac
<gkenn...@potatojunkie.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>pbo...@aol.com got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> What did Metro have to say? I don't go into London at weekends so
>> missed that.
>
>I can't remember, and left it on the train. But I know that it referred
>to this bit as an "in-joke", and my SO wondered aloud how it was an
>injoke - a reference to some real-life person? A nod to another
>episode? Or a belief that all these "gay references" form a running
>joke?
"Still, there were plenty of the trademark Russell T Davies in-jokes
to compensate, from the gay Russian husband on video-link to a space
base named in honour of Bowie. "
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
>The Face of Po wrote:
Viruses tend to interact with specific hosts by modifying their
genetic material. If this one's incompatible with carrots, why should
it be compatible with Humans?
It's a very sloppy and unconvincing story with a dull, predictable,
and overworked theme. None of the details make any kind of sense - and
I'm still waiting for you to explain how the victims managed to
produce such massive quantities of water.
Alan Sailsbury
I don't know Iggy. As I didn't write it, it's not up to me to explain
it. The virus was ALIEN. Who knows? Again, I suggest you write to RTD
and ask him. Let us know what he tells you.
You're a grumpy pedantic nit-picker who yearns for a scientifically
perfect era of Doctor Who that never even existed in the first place.
You're so intent on finding fault with it that you've forgotten how to
relax and enjoy it.
Monsieur Tabernac
"Look at her mouth. All blackened, like there's some sort of fission.
This thing, whatever it is, doesn't just hide in water, it CREATES
water."
Well, not much of an explanation really.
pbo...@aol.com
Be fair, an alien that attacks by passing water wouldn't be as
frightening, would it?
Phil
pbo...@aol.com
It's utterly astonishing that a Hartnell fan can hold Who to account
for failing on scientific grounds. Has Iggy *seen* The Tenth Planet?
Phil
The Doctor
The Doctor
The Face of Po <gkenn...@potatojunkie.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
All right ...
The Doctor
Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote:
>The Face of Po wrote:
>> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>> Ignis Fatuus got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>>
>> Maybe they did, but not visibly before Andy bit into one and dropped
>> them. But as carrots don't walk as fast as humans, they couldn't play
>> as big a part in what followed.
>>
>
>the flu! Obviously the virus only affects humans. The main reason being
>for dramatic purposes. IT'S ONLY A STORY.
>
Troll on TRollsbury.
poachedeggs
> In article <iLSdncMYT6R-FpzWnZ2dnUVZ7sBi4...@bt.com>,
> Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote:
>
> >The Face of Po wrote:
> >> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
> >> Ignis Fatuus got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> >>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>
> >> Maybe they did, but not visibly before Andy bit into one and dropped
> >> them. But as carrots don't walk as fast as humans, they couldn't play
> >> as big a part in what followed.
>
> >Iggy. What a dumb question. It's like asking why carrots don't catch
> >the flu! Obviously the virus only affects humans. The main reason being
> >for dramatic purposes. IT'S ONLY A STORY.
>
> Troll on TRollsbury.
> --
> Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
> Merry Christmas 2009 and Happy New Year 2010
Never mind all that, Gemma Chan's a bit lovely ain't she.
Gadget
poachedeggs
That's better, isn't it, that's a bit more grown up. Now, behave you
people - if I have to post here again it will be with my dalek poem.
And it doesn't rhyme.
The Doctor
poachedeggs <poach...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>On Nov 16, 9:28=A0pm, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>> In article <iLSdncMYT6R-FpzWnZ2dnUVZ7sBi4...@bt.com>,
>>
>> >The Face of Po wrote:
>> >> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>> >> Ignis Fatuus got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> >>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>>
>> >> Maybe they did, but not visibly before Andy bit into one and dropped
>ay
>> >> as big a part in what followed.
>>
>> >Iggy. What a dumb question. It's like asking why carrots don't catch
>> >the flu! Obviously the virus only affects humans. The main reason being
>> >for dramatic purposes. IT'S ONLY A STORY.
>>
>> Troll on TRollsbury.
>> --
>2k.ab.ca
>> God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist=
> rising!http://twitter.com/rootnl2khttp://www.myspace.com/502748630
>> Merry Christmas 2009 and Happy New Year 2010
>
>Never mind all that, Gemma Chan's a bit lovely ain't she.
Shall see 19 Dec .
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.myspace.com/502748630
The Doctor
poachedeggs <poach...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>On Nov 16, 11:20=A0pm, Gadget <m...@bowie.de> wrote:
>> poachedeggs wrote:
>> > On Nov 16, 9:28 pm, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>> >> In article <iLSdncMYT6R-FpzWnZ2dnUVZ7sBi4...@bt.com>,
>>
>> >>> The Face of Po wrote:
>> >>>> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>> >>>> Ignis Fatuus got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> >>>>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>> >>>> Maybe they did, but not visibly before Andy bit into one and dropped
>play
>> >>>> as big a part in what followed.
>> >>> Iggy. What a dumb question. It's like asking why carrots don't catch
>ng
>> >>> for dramatic purposes. IT'S ONLY A STORY.
>> >> Troll on TRollsbury.
>> >> --
>@nl2k.ab.ca
>> >> God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChr=
>ist rising!http://twitter.com/rootnl2khttp://www.myspace.com/502748630
>> >> Merry Christmas 2009 and Happy New Year 2010
>>
>> > Never mind all that, Gemma Chan's a bit lovely ain't she.
>>
>> Gorgeous!!http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/2740263509_c342b0e840.jpg?v=
>
>That's better, isn't it, that's a bit more grown up. Now, behave you
>people - if I have to post here again it will be with my dalek poem.
>And it doesn't rhyme.
Never met you 2 before. WElcome. Still ignore trolls like
Alan Sailsbury, john smith and Stephen Wilson; they are beyond hope.
Enjoy r.a.dw, r.a.dw.m & u.m.t.s.dw and all will be fine.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.myspace.com/502748630
john smith
"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
news:u0t2g5djk7cfkutkf...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:44:01 -0800 (PST), "pbo...@aol.com"
> <pbo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On 16 Nov, 15:32, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:21:57 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>> >> <mtaber...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:18:12 +0000, Ignis Fatuus
>>>
>>> >>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:34:45 +0000, Alan Sailsbury
>>> >>>> <al...@yahoo.comm>
> water so that it can do just that. The standard procedure is to
> collect a sample, identify anything that's Not Water (ie H2O) and then
> analyse the shit out of it.
>
Who gives a flying fuck? Maybe this speculative "virus" didn't work on
vegetation? Use your imagination, eh?
john smith
Christ, what a boring thread! Some of you so-called "Doctor Who" fans are
just anally-retentive fuckwits! Get a sense of perspective, eh?
>Mark thread as read<
john smith
"Monsieur Tabernac" <mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd53g5hfm4a9q6ata...@4ax.com...
Perhaps they absorb water from the air like those little silica packets you
get in camera equipment? What's the word? It's not deliquescence
exactly... hydro-something?
Got it! HYGROSCOPIC!!!
The Doctor
>
>
TRoll on john smith.
The Doctor
smith keeps on trolling.
Ignis Fatuus
Better than being incontinent, I suppose...
>>Mark thread as read<
>
There's some fascinating material in my ignored threads list. Perhaps
you'd feel more comfortable with the Hadron Collider; or what about a
job lot of DW novels.
Be Seeing You.
BTW - where do You think all the water came from?
Ignis Fatuus
Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
Ignis Fatuus
Of course they're unlikely to be Expelling water if they're
hygroscopic - but even so, that wouldn't account for the Volume of
water being Expelled. Try a simple experiment with a shower head to
replicate the effect. The atmosphere simply couldn't hold that much
water. If you stand in the bath with the shower running quite gently
and leave the plug in you'll be amazed at how quickly it fills up. Of
course the humidity of the atmosphere in the dome would be controlled
with some form of hygroscopic material to avoid detrimental effects on
the performance of sensitive electrical equipment.
Alan Sailsbury
You must be the life and soul of parties.
The Doctor
The Doctor
>>
>Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
That's his usual mood.
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
I tend to keep off science fiction; but I can keep people amused for
hours with anecdotes about my maritime activities.
Alan Sailsbury
Sorry, I misread that as marmite activities.
Ignis Fatuus
Garbage.
Looks as if it was shot with an iphone. Replaces the wit and levity of
the original with an incomprehensible plot borrowed from The Matrix,
or The Truman Show. Takes itself ooooh soooo seeeeeerrrriously.
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
Handy dietary supplement on a long voyage. Fresh fish is better but
I'm not keen on it raw; and it's not always possible to cook. Goes
well with biscuits and crackers; because of course bread very quickly
goes off in damp conditions. Tinned sardines are another favourite
standby. Better in oil than brine. Cheap and very nutritious.
john smith
Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really get
on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
suppose...
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Perhaps you should consider a bigger cup size.
Alan Sailsbury
>>
>>>
>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>
>
>
>
> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really get
> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
> suppose...
>
>
True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts who flies around time
and space in a fekkin' police box fighting monsters FFS. It's light
entertainment. Love it for what it IS, not sneer at it for being
something it's not trying to be!
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
>john smith wrote:
>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>> news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>
>>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really get
>> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
>> suppose...
>>
>>
>
>True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
>find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
>fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
>It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts
One Heart. The other came later for effect when the show was running
out of steam.
"The Great One"
"john smith" <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:H1oMm.61414$TK7....@newsfe18.ams2...
Then "Get the Fuck out of this news-group" and FOAD !!
--
Your Pal,
John C.
john smith
Haha! Maybe so! Or perhaps a double mastectomy might help...?
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I doubt it'll improve the cocoa.
john smith
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
> wrote:
>
>>john smith wrote:
>>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>>>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really
>>> get
>>> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
>>> suppose...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
>>find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
>>fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
>>It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts
>
> One Heart. The other came later for effect when the show was running
> out of steam.
>
<Breast-reduction: engaged>
You can't have a series that runs for 46 years without having it change and
develop. *Any* work of fiction has to elaborate and fill in backstory and
character background, etc. if it isn't going to stagnate. Or become
incredibly tedious and one-dimensional and samey. You seem to yearn for
some impossible childhood-moment-trapped-in-amber, Iggy. "Doctor Who"
would've been dead in the water decades ago if they'd followed your edicts.
Maybe you should just stick to re-reading your old "Dan Dare" and "Flash
Gordon" comics or summat...? ;-)
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>news:5m44g5l6ssqtipuen...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>john smith wrote:
>>>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>>>>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really
>>>> get
>>>> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
>>>> suppose...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
>>>find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
>>>fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
>>>It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts
>>
>> One Heart. The other came later for effect when the show was running
>> out of steam.
>>
>
>
><Breast-reduction: engaged>
>
ROTFLMAOWMLITA
>You can't have a series that runs for 46 years without having it change and
>develop. *Any* work of fiction has to elaborate and fill in backstory and
>character background, etc. if it isn't going to stagnate. Or become
>incredibly tedious and one-dimensional and samey.
You mean it's better for it to be tedious and one-dimensional and
samey for only thirty nine years?
I still think that adding random bits of anatomy is going a bit far. I
mean, where will it stop? Two Heads? Two...
Personally I think the enigma of the Doctor's origins would have been
more conducive to innovation and development than the tedious samey
fucking time lords - and more in keeping with the title of the show.
john smith
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:50:17 -0000, "john smith"
> <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>news:5m44g5l6ssqtipuen...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>john smith wrote:
>>>>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>>>>>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really
>>>>> get
>>>>> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup,
>>>>> I
>>>>> suppose...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
>>>>find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
>>>>fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
>>>>It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts
>>>
>>> One Heart. The other came later for effect when the show was running
>>> out of steam.
>>>
>>
>>
>><Breast-reduction: engaged>
>>
> ROTFLMAOWMLITA
What's do the last few letters stand for?
>
>>You can't have a series that runs for 46 years without having it change
>>and
>>develop. *Any* work of fiction has to elaborate and fill in backstory and
>>character background, etc. if it isn't going to stagnate. Or become
>>incredibly tedious and one-dimensional and samey.
>
> You mean it's better for it to be tedious and one-dimensional and
> samey for only thirty nine years?
>
> I still think that adding random bits of anatomy is going a bit far. I
> mean, where will it stop? Two Heads? Two...
>
> Personally I think the enigma of the Doctor's origins would have been
> more conducive to innovation and development than the tedious samey
> fucking time lords - and more in keeping with the title of the show.
I was never that enamoured of the Time Lords, actually. Boring bureaucratic
pedants. But there is no *way* the programme could have kept the "enigma"
of the Doctor intact for 46 years. Not a chance. Are you still an enigma
to your wife or your friends after 46 years? I know I'll never convince you
otherwise - why even try? - so we'll just have to leave it at that and see
how it pans out when they *do* bring the Time Lords back...
I hope to God they keep them waaaay in the background, though, and don't
just have the Doctor constantly running errands for them. Now *that* would
be tedious...
pbo...@aol.com
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >john smith wrote:
> >> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >>news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>
> >>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
> >>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>
> >> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really get
> >> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
> >> suppose...
>
> >True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
> >find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
> >fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
> >It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts
>
> One Heart. The other came later for effect when the show was running
> out of steam.
That just leaves the highly scientifically plausible bit about flying
round time and space in a police box fighting monsters...
>Phil
pbo...@aol.com
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:50:17 -0000, "john smith"
>
>
>
>
>
> <the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >news:5m44g5l6ssqtipuen...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
> >> wrote:
> I still think that adding random bits of anatomy is going a bit far. I
> mean, where will it stop? Two Heads? Two...
Yes, Iggy, they did that joke - Jackie: What else does he have two of?
> Personally I think the enigma of the Doctor's origins would have been
> more conducive to innovation and development than the tedious samey
> fucking time lords - and more in keeping with the title of the show.
In what way? "We don't know where he comes from - and that's it" adds
nothing. "We know he belongs to this species" at least gives an
opportunity to explore his origins and motives, for all that that was
done pretty badly for the most part. The last classic Who story I
watched was The War Games, which I thought was an effective way to
resolve the question of the Doctor's identity; shame the Time Lords
became so camped up in later appearances.
Phil
pbo...@aol.com
Come on, the Baker era wasn't *that* bad...
Phil
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I'll leave that to your imagination.
>
>
>>
>>>You can't have a series that runs for 46 years without having it change
>>>and
>>>develop. *Any* work of fiction has to elaborate and fill in backstory and
>>>character background, etc. if it isn't going to stagnate. Or become
>>>incredibly tedious and one-dimensional and samey.
>>
>> You mean it's better for it to be tedious and one-dimensional and
>> samey for only thirty nine years?
>>
>> I still think that adding random bits of anatomy is going a bit far. I
>> mean, where will it stop? Two Heads? Two...
>>
>> Personally I think the enigma of the Doctor's origins would have been
>> more conducive to innovation and development than the tedious samey
>> fucking time lords - and more in keeping with the title of the show.
>
>
>
>I was never that enamoured of the Time Lords, actually. Boring bureaucratic
>pedants. But there is no *way* the programme could have kept the "enigma"
>of the Doctor intact for 46 years. Not a chance. Are you still an enigma
>to your wife or your friends after 46 years?
I'm not married to the Doctor - and the less I know of him the better
I like it. Every pitiful embellishment of the original character has
merely diminished him IMPO.
> I know I'll never convince you
>otherwise - why even try? - so we'll just have to leave it at that and see
>how it pans out when they *do* bring the Time Lords back...
>
>I hope to God they keep them waaaay in the background, though, and don't
>just have the Doctor constantly running errands for them. Now *that* would
>be tedious...
>
>
They're hardly in the background now, as he whines on about them in
every bloody episode - and virtually every race in the Whoniverese
seems to revere the bastards. If they're carried on any further
they'll become gods - which Will make the show utterly ridiculous, and
impossible to develop.
Ignis Fatuus
>On 17 Nov, 04:03, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:50:17 -0000, "john smith"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>> >news:5m44g5l6ssqtipuen...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>> >> wrote:
>
>
>> I still think that adding random bits of anatomy is going a bit far. I
>> mean, where will it stop? Two Heads? Two...
>
>Yes, Iggy, they did that joke - Jackie: What else does he have two of?
>
>> Personally I think the enigma of the Doctor's origins would have been
>> more conducive to innovation and development than the tedious samey
>> fucking time lords - and more in keeping with the title of the show.
>
>In what way? "We don't know where he comes from - and that's it" adds
>nothing. "We know he belongs to this species" at least gives an
>opportunity to explore his origins and motives, for all that that was
>done pretty badly for the most part.
Whereas leaving it open would have given writers the opportunity to
speculate obliquely; and left viewers with their own personal
impressions of the character's identity - a far more satisfying state
of affairs than the current enslavement to an ill-conceived mythology.
> The last classic Who story I
>watched was The War Games, which I thought was an effective way to
>resolve the question of the Doctor's identity; shame the Time Lords
>became so camped up in later appearances.
>
The Name 'Time Lord' turns my stomach. It evokes a cheap tinpot
aristocracy with ideas well above it's station. It belongs in fairy
tales not science fiction; and it carries the notion of a race with
dominion over the forces of nature - which effectively makes them
Gods.
Did you watch all of War Games? It's top of my list as the most boring
and tedious serial ever.
Ignis Fatuus
The 'monsters' took over as the show was running out of ideas. The
time machine and the Police Box were perfectly plausible as
speculative extensions of accepted scientific theory.
pbo...@aol.com
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:33:53 -0800 (PST), "pbow...@aol.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <pbow...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On 17 Nov, 03:05, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >john smith wrote:
> >> >> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>
> >> >>> Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
> >> >>> with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>
> >> >> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really get
> >> >> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, I
> >> >> suppose...
>
> >> >True. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but some go out of their way to
> >> >find fault, often merely to boast of their own scientific know-how. Big
> >> >fucking deal you blinkered swots! Doctor Who has NEVER been hard SF.
> >> >It's about a 900 year old bloke with two hearts
>
> >> One Heart. The other came later for effect when the show was running
> >> out of steam.
>
> >That just leaves the highly scientifically plausible bit about flying
> >round time and space in a police box fighting monsters...
>
> The 'monsters' took over as the show was running out of ideas.
Give Newman and Lambert more credit - surely they didn't run out of
ideas after the first story?
And no, I'm not just talking about the Daleks - watching that serial
and its sequel, *every episode* has to end with a cliffhanger
featuring a different gribbly monster, be it a swamp thing, a Dalek or
whatever (even a crocodile at one point in Invasion, as I recall) -
there's never been an era of Who more reliant on monsters-of-the-week
for cheap thrills. The fact that you only got a monster story every
two stories was a side-effect of the use of a historical-space-
historical-space story formula, not any high-minded intent to keep
monsters at bay - the space stories were almost entirely monster-
driven from the start.
The
> time machine and the Police Box were perfectly plausible as
> speculative extensions of accepted scientific theory.
Considerably less so than two hearts (there have been species on this
planet with multiple hearts) or extreme longevity (just an
extrapolation from existing increases in life expectancy with advances
in medical technology).
Phil
pbo...@aol.com
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:40:48 -0800 (PST), "pbow...@aol.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <pbow...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On 17 Nov, 04:03, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:50:17 -0000, "john smith"
>
> >> <the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >> >"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:5m44g5l6ssqtipuen...@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:55:22 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> I still think that adding random bits of anatomy is going a bit far. I
> >> mean, where will it stop? Two Heads? Two...
>
> >Yes, Iggy, they did that joke - Jackie: What else does he have two of?
>
> >> Personally I think the enigma of the Doctor's origins would have been
> >> more conducive to innovation and development than the tedious samey
> >> fucking time lords - and more in keeping with the title of the show.
>
> >In what way? "We don't know where he comes from - and that's it" adds
> >nothing. "We know he belongs to this species" at least gives an
> >opportunity to explore his origins and motives, for all that that was
> >done pretty badly for the most part.
>
> Whereas leaving it open would have given writers the opportunity to
> speculate obliquely;
An avenue they so productively explored in ... oh, no, wait, they
didn't.
and left viewers with their own personal
> impressions of the character's identity - a far more satisfying state
> of affairs than the current enslavement to an ill-conceived mythology.
I don't think many people would argue that the Time Lords as presented
(at least post-War Games) were a good idea. The mythology was badly
handled; no surprises there because, let's face it, Dr Who was badly-
handled throughout its classic run, very much including the Hartnell
era (which had several strong stories, but then so did other eras. It
also had tripe like The Web Planet, The Tenth Planet and The Daleks).
This does nothing to obviate John's central point, which is that
character development demanded that we learn more about this character
and his origins, or my point that tying him to a specific culture is a
good way to do that.
> > The last classic Who story I
> >watched was The War Games, which I thought was an effective way to
> >resolve the question of the Doctor's identity; shame the Time Lords
> >became so camped up in later appearances.
>
> The Name 'Time Lord' turns my stomach.
Well, what else can you expect from the genius who gave us "Robomen"
and "Cybermen"?
It evokes a cheap tinpot
> aristocracy with ideas well above it's station. It belongs in fairy
> tales not science fiction;
Fits right into a kids' teatime TV show then, wouldn't you say?
> Did you watch all of War Games? It's top of my list as the most boring
> and tedious serial ever.
Iggy, have you actually *seen* any of the Hartnell era you revere so
highly? You complain about a lack of science in modern Who, when the
most atrocious mangling of science in the show's history - so bad it
wasn't only excruciating for someone used to ignoring bad science in
Who to watch, but it was actually hilarious - was The Tenth Planet.
Now you complain about a serial being "the most boring and tedious
ever" - one would think you've never seen The Daleks.
Yes, I watched all of War Games and quite enjoyed it - it dragged the
'hook' out a bit too long, but not as much so as some and it did fill
the time with plot development rather than, say, spending two episodes
just walking through the same tunnel. Maybe it improves if you watch
it all in one go rather than waiting a week for each instalment.
Phil
Adam
"Alan Sailsbury" <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote in message
news:uqmdnUMnmZaw8JzW...@bt.com...
> Adam wrote:
> > "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> > news:Rr-dnZXdT8AqwpzW...@eclipse.net.uk...
> >> "Alan Sailsbury" <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote in message
> >> news:wKidnabBA52ueZ3W...@bt.com...
> >>> Agamemnon wrote:
> >>>> And then the guy changed into a water monster after he ate a carrot.
> > So
> >>>> how come no one ate any carrots or other stuff from the garden
before?
> >>> It was explained that the filter had stopped the virus. The filter
that
> >>> was removed that day. You really should pay attention instead of
writing
> >>> your notes. It wasn't eating the carrot that changed him. It was the
> > WATER
> >>> he swilled it under. The clue was in the title, which is why the
episode
> >>> wasn't called The Carrots of Mars.
> > him,
> >> so obviously the water had already got into the system for long enough
for
> >> it to be absorbed into the carrot.
> >>
> >
> > Maybe there was a drop of unfiltered water on the carrot when he ate it.
> > Does it really matter?
> >
> >
>
> There's no maybe about it. Did no one else notice that he WASHED the
> carrot? That's how water got into his system.
>
He probably won't reply to this one. I've been away from this group since
the last episode, good to see some things never change! :o)
Soze
> Did you watch all of War Games? It's top of my list as the most boring
> and tedious serial ever.
It would be in my top 10 of Who stories personally, I can watch it over and
over and never tire of it. Not to sound like I`m picking a fight but many of
the most boring Who comes from Hartnell`s era...The Sensorites, The Space
Museum, The Gunfighters and The Web Planet are all mind numbingly dull.
Although later Who has it`s fair share of brain melters...Four to Doomsday,
Underworld, Colony in Space...oddly my least favourite era of Who in general
( the last 5 years ) was never dull. Often appalling but never actually
dull.
Alan Sailsbury
>
>
> I hope to God they keep them waaaay in the background, though, and don't
> just have the Doctor constantly running errands for them. Now *that* would
> be tedious...
>
Yeh, hopefully the punishment for The Doctor's arrogance won't be to
become the Time Lords' errand boy. The Doctor should remain independent,
because it sends a great message to the kids to aspire to be like that,
not cogs in the machine.
Alan Sailsbury
>
>>
> The 'monsters' took over as the show was running out of ideas.
By episode five in 1963???
So in reality you only like the very first Doctor Who story Iggy?
You come across as someone who once heard Sydney Newman despised "bug
eyed monsters" so you've decided to follow suit purely on the basis of
that. Those "rules" of Newman's were broken in the first year! Doctor
Who would NEVER have survived long without the monsters. And I bet that
you as a child loved them too, didn't you? Come on, admit it.
Soze
"Alan Sailsbury" <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote in message
Iggy will surely argue that the daleks weren`t your atypical bug eyed
monsters. I mean, c`mon....there`s no way they`d have put a genuine bug eyed
monster in the first series of Dr Who!!
http://drwhotht01.xtreemhost.com/1e/d1-1e-038.jpg
The Doctor
Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:20:34 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>wrote:
>
>>Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:48:20 -0000, "john smith"
>>> <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Monsieur Tabernac" <mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:hd53g5hfm4a9q6ata...@4ax.com...
>>>>> <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:30:13 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Face of Po wrote:
>>>>>>>> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>>>>>>>> Ignis Fatuus got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
No need. Just think of Sailsbury as 2 , smith as 909 and Wilson as 1112 .
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.myspace.com/502748630
Merry Christmas 2009 and Happy New Year 2010
The Doctor
Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:20:31 +0000 (UTC), doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca
>(The Doctor) wrote:
>
>>In article <e0t3g51nto138e3tc...@4ax.com>,
>>Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:44:32 -0000, "john smith"
>>><the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:30:13 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>The Face of Po wrote:
>>>>>>> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>>>>>>> Ignis Fatuus got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>>>>>>>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe they did, but not visibly before Andy bit into one and dropped
>>>>>>> them. But as carrots don't walk as fast as humans, they couldn't play
>>>>>>> as big a part in what followed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>FFS Iggy. What a dumb question. It's like asking why carrots don't catch
>>>>>>the flu! Obviously the virus only affects humans. The main reason being
>>>>>>for dramatic purposes. IT'S ONLY A STORY.
>>>>>
>>>>> Viruses tend to interact with specific hosts by modifying their
>>>>> genetic material. If this one's incompatible with carrots, why should
>>>>> it be compatible with Humans?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a very sloppy and unconvincing story with a dull, predictable,
>>>>> and overworked theme. None of the details make any kind of sense - and
>>>>> I'm still waiting for you to explain how the victims managed to
>>>>> produce such massive quantities of water.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>just anally-retentive fuckwits! Get a sense of perspective, eh?
>>>>
>>>Better than being incontinent, I suppose...
>>>
>>>>>Mark thread as read<
>>>>
>>>There's some fascinating material in my ignored threads list. Perhaps
>>>you'd feel more comfortable with the Hadron Collider; or what about a
>>>job lot of DW novels.
>>>
>>>Be Seeing You.
>>>
>>>BTW - where do You think all the water came from?
>>
>>Just watching new version of The Prisoner.
>
>Garbage.
>
>Looks as if it was shot with an iphone. Replaces the wit and levity of
>the original with an incomprehensible plot borrowed from The Matrix,
>or The Truman Show. Takes itself ooooh soooo seeeeeerrrriously.
Well PArts 5 and 6 air tonight and tommorow. I will judge.
The Doctor
smith trolls on.
The Doctor
The Doctor
\"The Great One\" <hones...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>"john smith" <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message =
>news:H1oMm.61414$TK7....@newsfe18.ams2...
>>=20
>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message=20
>> news:ckt3g5ltt4ap7pkvl...@4ax.com...
>> > On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:41:14 -0000, "john smith"
>> > <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:u0t2g5djk7cfkutkf...@4ax.com...
>> >>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:44:01 -0800 (PST), "pbo...@aol.com"
>> >>> <pbo...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On 16 Nov, 15:32, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
><al...@yahoo.comm>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>> >>>>> >> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:16:18 -0500, Monsieur Tabernac
>> >>>>> >> <mtaber...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:18:12 +0000, Ignis Fatuus
>> >>>>> >>> <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:34:45 +0000, Alan Sailsbury
>> >>>>> >>>> <al...@yahoo.comm>
>> >>>>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> Agamemnon wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>>>> And then the guy changed into a water
>
>> >>>>> >>>>>> carrots
>> >>>>> >>>>>> or
>> >>>>> >>>>>> other stuff from the garden before?
>The=20
>> >>>>> >>>>> filter
>> >>>>> >>>>> that
>> >>>>> >>>>> was removed that day. You really should pay attention =
>instead of
>> >>>>> >>>>> writing
>> >>>>> >>>>> your notes. It wasn't eating the carrot that changed him. =
>It was
>> >>>>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> >>>>> WATER he swilled it under. The clue was in the title, =
>which is=20
>> >>>>> >>>>> why
>> >>>>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> >>>>> episode wasn't called The Carrots of Mars.
>the
>> >>>>> >>>> spread
>> >>>>> >>>> of viruses - to do so it would effectively have to prevent =
>the=20
>> >>>>> >>>> flow
>> >>>>> >>>> of
>> >>>>> >>>> water.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> Why wasn't the water tested for viruses before the station =
>was
>> >>>>> >>>> built;
>> >>>>> >>>> and at regular intervals during it's operation. That is =
>standard
>> >>>>> >>>> procedure even here on Earth.
>> >>>>>
>affected
>> >>>>> >>>> by
>> >>>>> >>>> the virus? There would have to be contact with the water in =
>order
>> >>>>> >>>> to
>> >>>>> >>>> install the extraction and filtration system.
>> >>>>> >>> When you're the first humans on Mars, there usually isn't a
>> >>>>> >>> construction crew that precedes you. :)
>> >>>>>
>(from
>> >>>>> >>> which the annoying Gadget machine was cobbled together). =
>They
>> >>>>> >>> probably weren't affected by viruses.
>> >>>>>
>suitability for
>> >>>>> >> human consumption. Curious, gravity-defying water that jumps =
>out of
>> >>>>> >> it's reservoir and pours down on the roof of the structure =
>like a
>> >>>>> >> waterfall. Self-replicating water that pours continuously =
>from=20
>> >>>>> >> every
>> >>>>> >> orifice of it's victims.
>> >>>>>
>particularly
>> >>>>> >> as
>> >>>>> >> it needs a human handler. Presumably the rest of the robotic =
>crew
>> >>>>> >> packed up and left for home after the humans arrived.
>> >>>>>
>had=20
>> >>>>> >been
>> >>>>> >dismantled for something else? Use your imagination instead of
>> >>>>> >expecting
>you
>> >>>>> >Iggy,
>> >>>>> >and you're just determined to nit-pick for the hell of it =
>aren't you?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I probably wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't for all the fuss =
>they
>> >>>>> made about bicycles. If it's too expensive to transport a bike =
>then
>> >>>>> could they really afford to ditch an entire robotic construction =
>crew?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>What do you mean "ditch"? The robots had to be transported anyway =
>-
>> >>>>the base needed to be built. If anything it makes complete sense =
>for
>> >>>>the robots to be designed as modules that could be broken down to =
>make
>> >>>>useful human-operated equipment when the crew arrived, since it =
>would
>> >>>>save the fuel and material costs associated with sending out some
>> >>>>supplies.
>> >>>>
>water?
>> >>>>> My Granny worked for NASA and she always told me to boil =
>everything.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Iggy, it's an alien virus (if indeed it's a virus - they didn't
>a
>> >>>>bacterium or larger parasite); why should it necessarily either be =
>as
>> >>>>small as terrestrial viruses or detectable/controllable using =
>standard
>> >>>>purifying techniques?
>> >>>>
>> >>> Are you suggesting that they spent all that money building empty
>> >>> corridors and then forgot to run tests on the first sample of
>> >>> extra-terrestrial water ever encountered.
>> >>>
>extra-terrestrial
>> >>> water so that it can do just that. The standard procedure is to
>then
>> >>> analyse the shit out of it.
>> >>>
>> >>> BTW; why didn't the carrots mutate?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>on
>> >>vegetation? Use your imagination, eh?
>> >>
>> > Feeling a little cranky tonight I see. Perhaps you should get to bed
>> > with a nice hot mug of cocoa and a good book.
>> Only because all you berks bitching and whining and nit-picking really =
>get=20
>> on my tits! I should've known better coming on the bloody newsgroup, =
>I=20
>> suppose...=20
>
>Then "Get out of this news-group" and Die !!
>--
>Your Pal,
>John C.
Good idea for trolls like john smith.
The Doctor
Creep troll john smith.
pbo...@aol.com
> "Alan Sailsbury" <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote in message
>
> news:h6WdnebKRvgZL5_W...@bt.com...
>
> > Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>
> >> The 'monsters' took over as the show was running out of ideas.
>
> > By episode five in 1963???
>
> > So in reality you only like the very first Doctor Who story Iggy?
>
> > You come across as someone who once heard Sydney Newman despised "bug eyed
> > monsters" so you've decided to follow suit purely on the basis of that.
> > Those "rules" of Newman's were broken in the first year! Doctor Who would
> > NEVER have survived long without the monsters. And I bet that you as a
> > child loved them too, didn't you? Come on, admit it.
>
> Iggy will surely argue that the daleks weren`t your atypical bug eyed
> monsters.
But if he's seen The Daleks, he'll also know the Daleks weren't the
only monsters in it ... Iggy, with selective memory loss? Surely not!
Phil
Alan Sailsbury
Gosh could it be that... he HASN'T actually seen any Hartnell episodes
and just read Sydney Newman's comments? :-)
The Doctor
Ignis Fatuus
Different interests. I prefer local colour to ranting megalomaniacs
and intergalactic plots. The alien worlds of the Hartnell era were
more than just a background to some mindless confrontation and the
amount of detail in the productions was quite astonishing.
The War Games might have done well as a four parter; but ten weeks of
clay pits and bunkers, with the same thing happening every week, made
it a struggle to get through.
Sensorites is a weak story but it doesn't stand still like that. The
telepathy theme is well developed - particularly in association with
mental illness. The sashes are plain silly; but there's plenty of
detail in the alien culture, suspense in the political intrigues and
the paranoia which threatens to imprison the travelers, and a nice
twist when the 'monsters' turn out to be predatory Humans driven mad
by exposure to the telepathic environment.
Space Museum would be tedious if it wasn't for the opening twist of
the travelers manifesting themselves before they physically arrive.
The 'resistance' plot was wearing thin - but that didn't stop it being
used regularly throughout the rest of the series. No monsters - but
the museum is suitably sinister, and the elitist covetous Moroks
engage the doctor in a passable game of cat and mouse.
The Web Planet grabbed the biggest audience share of any DW story
(apart from the Baker stories enhanced by the ITV strike. The plot is
a ho-hum repeat of the Dead Planet; but visually it's still easily the
best alien world in the series, with a mass of interesting detail,
and a wealth of incident and scene changes to keep it moving along.
Gunfighters is one of my personal favourites, and one of the most
densely plotted stories, with witty dialogue, excellent characters,
and plenty of incident to keep it moving. As the battle of wits
unfolds between Earp, Holliday, and The Doctor, the tone subtly shifts
from the jokey wild west opening (and the Doctor's fear of the
Dentist) to fear and suspense as the murderous violence escalates. The
OK Corral scene is particularly well staged. But then the whole thing
is nearly wrecked by the bloody song. I'd love to see a version with
it edited out completely.
One of the great strengths of these stories was the use of frequent
scene changes, which drew in fresh characters and incidents as they
moved through different locations. Later stories, relying on one main
set with offshoots, became dull and monotonous by comparison. The
wealth of detail and incident that made the early series so
interesting and involving had vanished almost entirely by the end of
the Troughton era. The Cybermen invasion of London amounted to an army
packed in crates, and a token appearance at a couple of landmarks.
nothing as ambitious as the devastation of the Dalek invasion would
ever be mounted again.
IMHO That is not Progress.
Ignis Fatuus
I disagree. I can see no good reason why we should have anything more
than a sketchy notion of the Doctor's background - and the mess that
was made of filling it in only strengthens that argument. The
character's been painted into a corner from which He's unlikely ever
to emerge. In the meanwhile new writers are hamstrung by being saddled
with the memory of this shoddy aristocracy. The 'Gallifrey' scenes in
the Master story were as trite and embarrassing as anything from the
Pertwee/Baker era - and totally unnecessary. Jacobi's Master was a
revelation sprung from a mysterious artifact - which was all that was
required. Simm and Tennant's interminable ramblings about their
childhood were pure crap.
>
>> > The last classic Who story I
>> >watched was The War Games, which I thought was an effective way to
>> >resolve the question of the Doctor's identity; shame the Time Lords
>> >became so camped up in later appearances.
>>
>> The Name 'Time Lord' turns my stomach.
>
>Well, what else can you expect from the genius who gave us "Robomen"
>and "Cybermen"?
>
>�It evokes a cheap tinpot
>> aristocracy with ideas well above it's station. It belongs in fairy
>> tales not science fiction;
>
>Fits right into a kids' teatime TV show then, wouldn't you say?
>
>> Did you watch all of War Games? It's top of my list as the most boring
>> and tedious serial ever.
>
>Iggy, have you actually *seen* any of the Hartnell era you revere so
>highly? You complain about a lack of science in modern Who,
Who mention science - but if you want to include some it needn't be as
ludicrously inept as Waters of Mars.
The main pleasures of early Who (and I see at least a couple of
episodes most weeks) are the wealth of detail and incident that make
up the stories. I'm not interested in some Crusader, perpetually
saving the Universe from Rubber Masks. My Doctor had a struggle saving
himself - and that was good enough.
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
>Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>
>>>
>> The 'monsters' took over as the show was running out of ideas.
>
>By episode five in 1963???
>
The Daleks weren't 'Monsters'. They were an intelligently conceived
alien race placed in a very detailed context.
Monsters are the moronic zombie mutations featured in Waters of Mars;
and the Rapacious Ranting Megalomaniacs featured in stories like
Pyramids of Weng Chiang. They exist to scare without involving the
trouble of making them plausible or interesting. They manifest
themselves as rubber masks or face paint, in the same story time after
time, because the writers can't be trashed to think of something a
little more detailed or original.
TedKord
> "Alan Sailsbury" <al...@yahoo.comm> wrote in message
>
>
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> >> And then the guy changed into a water monster after he ate a carrot. So
> >> how come no one ate any carrots or other stuff from the garden before?
>
> > It was explained that the filter had stopped the virus. The filter that
> > was removed that day. You really should pay attention instead of writing
> > your notes. It wasn't eating the carrot that changed him. It was the WATER
> > he swilled it under. The clue was in the title, which is why the episode
> > wasn't called The Carrots of Mars.
>
> so obviously the water had already got into the system for long enough for
> it to be absorbed into the carrot.
Man, you just go in to these with your head already set against it. He
rinsed the carrots in
water before he ate. It was the water ON the carrots, not IN them. DW
is prone to plot
holes like that, but this wasn't one. This was you missing a key
point.
I realize you've already got a basic outline for your reviews before
you watch the episodes
(crack about Rose, compare to a soap, try to get a homosexual joke
in...), but you could
at least make sure you understand what you watched before you trash it.
Alan Sailsbury
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:27:17 +0000, Alan Sailsbury <al...@yahoo.comm>
> wrote:
>
>> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>> The 'monsters' took over as the show was running out of ideas.
>> By episode five in 1963???
>>
> The Daleks weren't 'Monsters'. They were an intelligently conceived
> alien race placed in a very detailed context.
Yeah I knew you'd use that excuse.
>
> Monsters are the moronic zombie mutations featured in Waters of Mars;
> and the Rapacious Ranting Megalomaniacs featured in stories like
> Pyramids of Weng Chiang. They exist to scare without involving the
> trouble of making them plausible or interesting. They manifest
> themselves as rubber masks or face paint, in the same story time after
> time, because the writers can't be trashed to think of something a
> little more detailed or original.
Well thanks for correcting 46 years of public misconception as to what a
"Doctor Who monster" is Iggy. Even though you've forgotten that the
Hartnell era had them.
>
>> So in reality you only like the very first Doctor Who story Iggy?
>>
>> You come across as someone who once heard Sydney Newman despised "bug
>> eyed monsters" so you've decided to follow suit purely on the basis of
>> that. Those "rules" of Newman's were broken in the first year! Doctor
>> Who would NEVER have survived long without the monsters. And I bet that
>> you as a child loved them too, didn't you? Come on, admit it.
>>
Well Iggy? I notice you declined to answer my last point.
Alan Sailsbury
It must be difficult for Aggy to pay attention to the screen while he's
scribbling in his notepad in a frenzy.
Ignis Fatuus
wrote:
You've made it so many times before. In 1963 I'd never heard of
Newman. I watched DW as an Alternative to the Halloween Costumes
jumping out and shouting Blllllleeeeaaaarrrrgggggghhh; and I STOPPED
watching Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea when it unaccountably dropped
tales of intrigue, exploration, and adventure in favour of Halloween
Masks. I have Never been a fan of the kind of crude camped-up
pantomime horror that began to dominate DW from Troughton onwards, and
hit rock bottom when Baker appeared on the scene.
Now can you copy that into a text document and paste it in as my reply
whenever you make the point in the future. You'll be doing me a favour
by saving the trouble of typing a reply.
pbo...@aol.com
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:14:23 -0000, "Soze"
>
>
>
>
>
> <I...@salsbury42.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >news:anm4g5t86lcio1d7q...@4ax.com...
>
> >> Did you watch all of War Games? It's top of my list as the most boring
> >> and tedious serial ever.
>
> >It would be in my top 10 of Who stories personally, I can watch it over and
> >over and never tire of it. Not to sound like I`m picking a fight but many of
> >the most boring Who comes from Hartnell`s era...The Sensorites, The Space
> >Museum, The Gunfighters and The Web Planet are all mind numbingly dull.
> >Although later Who has it`s fair share of brain melters...Four to Doomsday,
> >Underworld, Colony in Space...oddly my least favourite era of Who in general
> >( the last 5 years ) was never dull. Often appalling but never actually
> >dull.
>
> Different interests. I prefer local colour to ranting megalomaniacs
> and intergalactic plots.
Damn, that's Web Planet out then. Wasn't the ranting megalomaniac
spider going on about conquering the galaxy? Or was it just the local
system?
The alien worlds of the Hartnell era were
> more than just a background to some mindless confrontation
Really? I must confess the only Hartnell space episodes (assuming
Dalek Invasion doesn't count as a space episode) I've seen are The
Daleks, The Web Planet and The Tenth Planet, and in all of those the
worlds were just a background to mindless confrontation (literally
mindless in the case of the Zarbi). I must really be unlucky with my
random selection of Hartnell stories. Even Face of Evil better-
realised its setting and motive for conflict - granted the ultimate
motive for conflict was an evil megalomaniac computer, but how's that
different from it being an evil megalomaniac spider?
and the
> amount of detail in the productions was quite astonishing.
Ah, so *that's* the excuse for spending a third of The Daleks in the
same section of tunnel!
> The War Games might have done well as a four parter; but ten weeks of
> clay pits and bunkers, with the same thing happening every week, made
> it a struggle to get through.
But it wasn't the same thing happening every week; unlike so many Who
stories each section had its own part to play in the story - firstly
setting the scene, then discovering the time zones, then getting a
map, then trying to organise the resistance, then infiltrating the
base to secure a 'space-time machine', then... True, all of these
objectives were achieved largely through running around in corridors
or arguing in bunkers, but that's always been true of Who.
> The Web Planet grabbed the biggest audience share of any DW story
> (apart from the Baker stories enhanced by the ITV strike. The plot is
> a ho-hum repeat of the Dead Planet; but visually it's still easily the
> best alien world in the series, with a mass of interesting detail,
> and a wealth of incident and scene changes to keep it moving along.
It didn't move along, though, save in a circle of "Doctor &/or co. get
captured by this faction, persuade them to fight, get captured by that
faction, fall down a hole and get captured by the other faction,
persuade them to fight, rinse and repeat".
> One of the great strengths of these stories was the use of frequent
> scene changes, which drew in fresh characters and incidents as they
> moved through different locations. Later stories, relying on one main
> set with offshoots, became dull and monotonous by comparison.
Yet you're moaning about The War Games being the most boring ever,
with about half a dozen major sets and a host of characters who came
and in some cases inexplicably went (like the ambulance driver who
vanished for no very clear reason halfway through).
The
> wealth of detail and incident that made the early series so
> interesting and involving had vanished almost entirely by the end of
> the Troughton era. The Cybermen invasion of London amounted to an army
> packed in crates, and a token appearance at a couple of landmarks.
> nothing as ambitious as the devastation of the Dalek invasion would
> ever be mounted again.
>
> IMHO That is not Progress.
That depends what you want from "Progress". You might have found Dalek
Invasion varied and exciting; to me it came across as a transparent
excuse to show off as many locations as possible and shoehorn in as
many random monsters as possible at the expense of any pretence at a
plot.
Changing locations and characters on a whim for no other reason than
variety is no hallmark of good storytelling, and just seems to pander
to an audience without the attention span to focus on a consistent
story. In any medium, fiction is first and foremost about telling a
story - scenery and characters are a means to that end, not focal
points the story exists only to connect to one another.
Phil
Mr.Smartypants
Especially when he wraps tinfoil around the screen and his own head so
he won't be distracted by any sight or sound whilst he crafts his
review.
pbo...@aol.com
And mine about the swamp monster from The Daleks too, at that. Or was
than an intelligently-conceived alien race?
Phil
pbo...@aol.com
Possibly when you explain how you reconcile that with watching Tenth
Planet or Web Planet.
Phil
Ignis Fatuus
>On 17 Nov, 18:25, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:14:23 -0000, "Soze"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <I...@salsbury42.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>> >news:anm4g5t86lcio1d7q...@4ax.com...
>>
>> >> Did you watch all of War Games? It's top of my list as the most boring
>> >> and tedious serial ever.
>>
>> >It would be in my top 10 of Who stories personally, I can watch it over and
>> >over and never tire of it. Not to sound like I`m picking a fight but many of
>> >the most boring Who comes from Hartnell`s era...The Sensorites, The Space
>> >Museum, The Gunfighters and The Web Planet are all mind numbingly dull.
>> >Although later Who has it`s fair share of brain melters...Four to Doomsday,
>> >Underworld, Colony in Space...oddly my least favourite era of Who in general
>> >( the last 5 years ) was never dull. Often appalling but never actually
>> >dull.
>>
>> Different interests. I prefer local colour to ranting megalomaniacs
>> and intergalactic plots.
>
>Damn, that's Web Planet out then. Wasn't the ranting megalomaniac
>spider going on about conquering the galaxy? Or was it just the local
>system?
>
None of those - until the final episode. It was about the Menoptra
reclaiming their home world - and discovering the true nature of the
different species living on Vortis; It was abut a struggle for
survival in an inhospitable world; and it was about a game of cat and
mouse between the Doctor and a powerful adversary.
>The alien worlds of the Hartnell era were
>> more than just a background to some mindless confrontation
>
>Really? I must confess the only Hartnell space episodes (assuming
>Dalek Invasion doesn't count as a space episode) I've seen are The
>Daleks, The Web Planet and The Tenth Planet, and in all of those the
>worlds were just a background to mindless confrontation (literally
>mindless in the case of the Zarbi). I must really be unlucky with my
>random selection of Hartnell stories. Even Face of Evil better-
>realised its setting and motive for conflict - granted the ultimate
>motive for conflict was an evil megalomaniac computer, but how's that
>different from it being an evil megalomaniac spider?
Face of Evil was about a camped-up group of pseudo-savages living like
specimens in a Zoo exhibit. Three episodes of 'mysterious happenings'
before Baker got to grips with the problem.
Give me 10,000 BC any day.
>
> and the
>> amount of detail in the productions was quite astonishing.
>
>Ah, so *that's* the excuse for spending a third of The Daleks in the
>same section of tunnel!
The Dalek City boasted a dozen or more different locations - many of
which were only visited once. Then there were the forest the mountains
the swamp the caves and of course the Tardis. Quite impressive for an
unsophisticated early sixties production.
>
>> The War Games might have done well as a four parter; but ten weeks of
>> clay pits and bunkers, with the same thing happening every week, made
>> it a struggle to get through.
>
>But it wasn't the same thing happening every week; unlike so many Who
>stories each section had its own part to play in the story - firstly
>setting the scene, then discovering the time zones, then getting a
>map, then trying to organise the resistance, then infiltrating the
>base to secure a 'space-time machine', then... True, all of these
>objectives were achieved largely through running around in corridors
>or arguing in bunkers, but that's always been true of Who.
>
Not oat all. The number and variety of sets used in the early stories
was quite staggering.
>> The Web Planet grabbed the biggest audience share of any DW story
>> (apart from the Baker stories enhanced by the ITV strike. The plot is
>> a ho-hum repeat of the Dead Planet; but visually it's still easily the
>> best �alien world in the series, with a mass of interesting detail,
>> and a wealth of incident and �scene changes to keep it moving along.
>
>It didn't move along, though, save in a circle of "Doctor &/or co. get
>captured by this faction, persuade them to fight, get captured by that
>faction, fall down a hole and get captured by the other faction,
>persuade them to fight, rinse and repeat".
>
Yes. That's how stories develop - drawing in new material as they
progress. Unfortunately most of the Pertwee/Baker stories - and many
of the Troughtons - just landed in a situation and then went over the
same ground for four or six weeks until the Doctor arrived at a
'solution'.
>> One of the great strengths of these stories was the use of frequent
>> scene changes, which drew in fresh characters and incidents as they
>> moved through different locations. Later stories, relying on one main
>> set with offshoots, became dull and monotonous by comparison.
>
>Yet you're moaning about The War Games being the most boring ever,
>with about half a dozen major sets and a host of characters who came
>and in some cases inexplicably went (like the ambulance driver who
>vanished for no very clear reason halfway through).
Mostly extras playing little or no part in the development of the
story. As for the different Zones; they seemed more like different
cubicles in an office space.
>
> The
>> wealth of detail and incident that made the early series so
>> interesting and involving had vanished almost entirely by the end of
>> the Troughton era. The Cybermen invasion of London amounted to an army
>> packed in crates, and a token appearance at a couple of landmarks.
>> nothing as ambitious as the devastation of the Dalek invasion would
>> ever be mounted again.
>>
>> IMHO That is not Progress.
>
>That depends what you want from "Progress". You might have found Dalek
>Invasion varied and exciting; to me it came across as a transparent
>excuse to show off as many locations as possible and shoehorn in as
>many random monsters as possible at the expense of any pretence at a
>plot.
>
There were several plots involving different sets of characters
engaged in different activities and experiencing different facets of
the invasion.
>Changing locations and characters on a whim for no other reason than
>variety is no hallmark of good storytelling, and just seems to pander
>to an audience without the attention span to focus on a consistent
>story. In any medium, fiction is first and foremost about telling a
>story - scenery and characters are a means to that end, not focal
>points the story exists only to connect to one another.
>
So your definition of a 'story' is a bunch of characters talking about
a problem un till the one labeled 'Hero' resolves it? Because that's
what the majority of the Baker stories amount to.