Yeah horrible Doctor Who Episodes finally end Friday ABC TV
NewcastleBoy
series was getting unbearably bad. I think I saw one Sylvester McCoy
episode and quite liked what I saw (it was the Daleks episode). In
retrospect, Colin Baker's stories were infinitely superior to
Sylvester McCoy's (but still very bad). I'm glad I've watched till the
end out of interest sake for missing these episodes as it has given me
a perspective of just how bad the writing of Doctor Who got before the
end, as well as knowing how the old series ended. Obviously, ABC
realised just how crook these episodes were because they started
showing 1 whole hour of Doctor Who five nights a week just to finish
the series.
If I were to watch the series over again, I'd most like start with Jon
Pertwee and watch until the end of Tom Baker's reign (even then the
stories were pretty crap towards the end). I would totally bypass the
other Doctor's. It's nice ABC has educated me in what Doctor Who
stories are good, and which ones are terrible, and what Doctors to
watch, though I mainly worked this out last time around in the 1980s,
with the exception of William Hartnell or Patrick Troughton, Doctors I
knew virtually nothing about because ABC wasn't giving them repeat
playtime, until the early 90s.
- NewcastleBoy
The Doctor
Drop the FOster will you?
--
Member - Liberal International
This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
Born 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey UK
Roj Blake
>> - NewcastleBoy
>
> Drop the FOster will you?
Fosters is for the yanks and the frozen yanks (Canadians)
Roj Blake
> I must admit I switched off in the mid 80s during Colin Baker as the
> series was getting unbearably bad. I think I saw one Sylvester McCoy
> episode and quite liked what I saw (it was the Daleks episode). In
> retrospect, Colin Baker's stories were infinitely superior to
> Sylvester McCoy's (but still very bad).
WTF is going on in Ghost Light !
Mike Morris
It was nice of you to watch, even despite that old
Doctor-Who-died-when-Tom-Baker-did stance. Actually there have been
eight further seasons, two ranges of novels, extensive amounts of audio
dramas, and a new series. Thanks for your time but please, don't let me
detain you.
The Doctor
We sing God Save the Queen in Canada!
Dburns2006-B
"Roj Blake" <...@...> wrote in message
news:43df4bcd$0$32633$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Ghostlight
As if the knife hadn't been twisted enough, we now have to endure the
laughable attempts of the production team in trying to convince us that
there is a darker side to the McCoy Doctor. There isn't. The only darkness
about him is the shit brown of his coat. Ghostlight is a script of such
incompetence that it makes Battlefield look positively sophisticated. Stir
in a cast that will have you cringing at every opportunity and plenty of
awful moments and you have the perfect soup - steaming brown shit soup.
Lighthope
By the time of Ghostlight, it seems hardcore fandom had completely
taken over the series.
As much as Michael Grade is degraded, Doctor Who under John
Nathan-Turner needed to be cancelled. My solution would have been to
bring in a new producer, rather than cancel it outright.
I think I heard somewhere that a lot of people responsible for the book
range is responsible for the new series. I don't know if that is true,
but it certainly seems to be. There's too much "magic" in this new
series. Not enough science in the science-fiction. Now we have a
Doctor who is invincible for 15 hours after regeneration? Shouldn't he
be flickering then like in video games?
I do like the new series, but I find myself going "Oh, come on!" more
times than I should.
Lighthope
Pearls of Wisdom - Dear God, please allow my daughter to believe in
salvation by works instead of by grace alone. It's the only way we can
get her to clean her room.
--== THE DOCTOR WHO AUDIO DRAMAS: http://www.dwad.net
--== TIGERS' QUEST: http://www.tigersquest.com
--== Everlasting Films Call Board:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/everlastingfilms
powr...@aol.com
> Lighthope wrote:
> There's too much "magic" in this new
> series. Not enough science in the science-fiction.
Oh my giddy aunt, no!
cosmichobo
"Lighthope" <ligh...@onepost.net> wrote:
> > WTF is going on in Ghost Light !
>
> By the time of Ghostlight, it seems hardcore fandom had completely
> taken over the series.
>
> As much as Michael Grade is degraded, Doctor Who under John
> Nathan-Turner needed to be cancelled. My solution would have been to
> bring in a new producer, rather than cancel it outright.
Well, that's what JNT wanted... but he was told if he didn't stay with
the show, the show would be cancelled. So he felt obligated to stay on.
Maybe he should have called their bluff...
If they went ahead and cancelled the show, circa 87, maybe the [help me
here] French movie co... Lumeire? would have gone ahead, and renewed
interest in the franchise across the globe... or at very least in the
early 90's we might have got Philip Segal's Doctor Who vision...
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
> I think I heard somewhere that a lot of people responsible for the book
> range is responsible for the new series. I don't know if that is true,
> but it certainly seems to be. There's too much "magic" in this new
> series. Not enough science in the science-fiction. Now we have a
> Doctor who is invincible for 15 hours after regeneration? Shouldn't he
> be flickering then like in video games?
Don't get me started.... chop my hand off and it grows back cos its
15hrs after regeneration... CHEAP SHOT RUSSELL! Cut the crap.
> I do like the new series, but I find myself going "Oh, come on!" more
> times than I should.
I find myself longing for the Terrileptils to reappear and destroy the
new sonic screwdriver... I never liked when they destroyed the first
one, but now - the writers use it for EVERYTHING! Sheesh.
cheers
cosmic
Dburns2006-B
"Lighthope" <ligh...@onepost.net> wrote in message
news:1138739787.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> WTF is going on in Ghost Light !
>
> By the time of Ghostlight, it seems hardcore fandom had completely
> taken over the series.
>
> As much as Michael Grade is degraded, Doctor Who under John
> Nathan-Turner needed to be cancelled.
Yeah, to put Doctor Who fans out of their misery. Those last three years
under McCoy were extremely painful.
Lighthope
> the show, the show would be cancelled. So he felt obligated to stay on.
Actually, JNT was threatened with termination from the BBC if he quit
Doctor Who, accorinding to the Seventh Doctor Handbook. I don't recall
any specific threat being made to the show itself.
> or at very least in the
> early 90's we might have got Philip Segal's Doctor Who vision...
I don't really think Segal's version of DW is really any better than
what we have now. His movie was "By Fans, For Fans", as well. After
all, he may not have had a "flickering Doctor", but Segal had the
"Let's Go Back In Time and Bring Them Back to Life" thing going,
something the BBC avoided at all costs. (cf. Time Flight) Same diff.
> I find myself longing for the Terrileptils to reappear and destroy the
> new sonic screwdriver... I never liked when they destroyed the first
> one, but now - the writers use it for EVERYTHING! Sheesh.
I was so happy they brought back the Sonic Screwdriver...until they
mucked it up by making it the new K/9 of the series! (Capable of
getting the Doctor out of anything.)
Lighthope
Pearls of Wisdom - A fool and his money... Hey! Where's my wallet?
NewcastleBoy
wrote:
>
>It was nice of you to watch, even despite that old
>Doctor-Who-died-when-Tom-Baker-did stance. Actually there have been
>eight further seasons, two ranges of novels, extensive amounts of audio
>dramas, and a new series. Thanks for your time but please, don't let me
>detain you.
>
If you had read my post carefully you would have realised I was
discussing the old series and not the new series. While the new series
is quite different, I don't dislike it, it has elements in I think are
extremely impressive. The only story i've really liked of the new
series is the Doctor Who Christmas Invasion. I realise quite a few
people disliked this story because the Doctor was hardly in it due to
his unstable regenerative state, but I thought it was first class. I
am really looking forward to the second series of Doctor Who.
Worst to best doctors in order (with worst first as rated by me):
William Hartnell
Sylvester McCoy
Colin Baker
Peter Davison
Patrick Troughton
Jon Pertwee
Tom Baker
Christopher Ecclestone
(I haven't included Paul McGann, David Tennant or Peter Cushing due to
either separate Doctor Who spin offs unrelated to the series, or
limited viewing exposure).
- NewcastleBoy
Mike Morris
NewcastleBoy wrote:
> On 31 Jan 2006 04:52:35 -0800, "Mike Morris" <nyder_...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >It was nice of you to watch, even despite that old
> >Doctor-Who-died-when-Tom-Baker-did stance. Actually there have been
> >eight further seasons, two ranges of novels, extensive amounts of audio
> >dramas, and a new series. Thanks for your time but please, don't let me
> >detain you.
> >
>
> If you had read my post carefully you would have realised I was
> discussing the old series and not the new series.
I was perfectly aware what you were discussing and didn't make any
reference to the new series at all. What I was objecting to was the
everything-post-Tom-was-crap view which you postulated, as a
matter-of-fact, without any sort of examples are reasons to back up
this opinion. I think eighties Who is far, far better than most of the
pre-Tom stuff, Season 7 excepted. And come to think of it I'd rather
watch Seasons 21 or 26 than, say, Season 12.
Having said that, I just seem to have been reading a lot of this sort
of thing lately and you bore the brunt of the backlash, I'm afraid. So
I was harsher than your post warranted and apologies for that.
Mike Morris
And now, a rebuttal - I wrote this a few years ago on the Doctor Who
Ratings Guide, www.pagefillers.com/dwrg/frames.htm - it's a bit long
though, so pat yourself on the back if you get through it!
Loose Threads, Faint Shadows by Mike Morris 4/9/02
Ghost Light is one of those stories that one might call an exemplar; it
seems to be the archetypal Cartmel-era story. In the same way that The
Brain of Morbius is a perfect example of early-Hinchcliffe Hammer
pastiches, and Revelation of the Daleks sums up everything about the
intention behind Season 22, the fractured narrative of Ghost Light with
its condensed Victorian influences, dark tones and manipulative Doctor
says a hell of a lot about where Andrew Cartmel wanted the series to
go. This is part of the reason that some three-part story in a haunted
house is so heavily-discussed; Ghost Light expresses Cartmel's vision
so flawlessly that any comments made about it pertain to the ethos of
the Cartmel era as a whole.
It's also quite complicated, you know. I'm not sure if anyone's
mentioned that before.
And yet it isn't complicated at all; the main plot is actually very
simple indeed. In fact, it's easily squashed into a few sentences at
the start of Part Three, with the whole "while it slept the survey got
out of Control" scene. Having said that, there's an awful lot of stuff
going on at any given time. I remember watching Ghost Light for the
first time; I always felt a step behind the narrative, and although by
the end I understood the main plot perfectly well, I still felt that
I'd missed a lot.
All that said, recently I watched it with my sister (11), my brother
(9), and my mum, whose interest in sci-fi is, well, not that
pronounced. Only twice was I asked for clarification on anything - the
husks and the insects coming alive. If the story can play to that
audience, well, it's not so complicated at all. I'd argue that it's
only that complex to a certain section of viewers - the kind who watch
a lot of science fiction on telly.
Part of the reason that the story is seen as so complex is that it is
structured in a fundamentally different way to more or less every other
Doctor Who story (and more or less every televised sci-fi story). It
doesn't follow the straight-line, plot-based narrative that almost all
Doctor Who stories are based on. There's a whole host of separate
threads going on - the husks, Gwendoline and Lady Pritchard, Josiah's
evolution, Control and Redvers, Ace's history, Light. By looking at it
quite dispassionately, a lot of these characters are superfluous to the
"plot" - Redvers Fenn-Cooper doesn't contribute anything much to the
Light's-in-the-spaceship-in-the-cellar scenario, for example. One might
call these "subplots", but this is only partially true, because all
these threads are given exactly the same weight.
In fact, in the Doctor Who sense of the world, Ghost Light doesn't
really have a plot at all, or at least not in the in the way that The
Brain of Morbius is fundamentally about Solon making a body for his
master. It's not even completely true to say that Ghost Light is
different because it's about evolution, because Full Circle is about
evolution but still builds up a plot around the idea. Ghost Light,
however, is more a series of vignettes grouped around a central
concept. The concept itself is quite loose; one might assume it started
out as being about evolution, but broadened into a study of change as
opposed to Victorian ideas. As well the change/static idea, other ideas
recur, such as the notion of appearance and recurring ideas about
racism.
In fact, what we have is something almost unique in Doctor Who; a
fundamentally post-modern narrative structure.
No, no, don't stop reading. The problem with saying something's
post-modern is that "post-modern" is bandied about so much it's a
rather blurry idea, and in fact it always was. It was conceived as an
alternative to Modernism, and as such it's more a reaction to Modernist
thinking than a defined doctrine in its own right.
So while Modernism was about carefully pushing a single premise as far
as it could go, Post-Modernism gleefully addressed several ideas quite
loosely. Modernism tended to use a single reference, and use that
reference to create something entirely new, but Post-Modernism used
multiple references and acknowledged those references quite openly. And
while Modernism tended to be about simplicity and rationality,
Post-Modernism was complex and delighted in introducing details out of
whimsy.
Films like Scream or anything by the Coen Brothers are good examples of
post-modern works, whereas the recent rash of teenage adaptations of
classic texts (Cruel Intentions or 10 Things I Hate About You) are
actually more Modernist than anything else - faithful reworkings of a
single reference.
Now that's what I call a digression. To get back to Doctor Who, The
Brain of Morbius, for example, is a very Modernist story - a careful
adaptation of Frankenstein to suit Doctor Who's formula. It uses the
same settings, the same moral debates, the same tone. In fact, most
Doctor Who stories are loosely Modernist; generally they are about
"linear" plots, about simple storylines, and the stories have a
no-frills quickness to them; those that don't are dismissed as
"padded".
Ghost Light, meanwhile, condenses and references numerous sources, but
not in any particularly careful way. For the average Doctor Who viewer,
it's frustratingly difficult to find any real influences to cling on
to, and what references there are can only be called loose. The story
tips its hat to Kafka's Metamorphosis, for example, but there are few
enough actual parallels; it evokes the spirit of that story rather than
anything specific (Josiah's transformation is completely different to
that of Kafka's narrator). Ditto the Pygmalion angle - Control wants to
become a "lady-like", but beyond that there are no similarities at all.
It's easy to imagine a Robert Holmes adaptation of Metamorphosis. We'd
have a giant insect, a tortured transformation... well, maybe he
already did it with The Ark In Space, in a sense. We'd have a very
easy-to-read narrative. With Ghost Light, there's no unifying plot,
just unifying ideas that bring disparate elements together. Josiah's
skin-shedding is related to Ace's "scratch the Victorian veneer"
comment, which can then be grouped with Redver's terrified references
to "the Interior", and also to his gazing at a faded image of himself.
All these scenes are, broadly, about *appearance*, and the horrors that
may lie beneath it, albeit in a loose way rather than anything
specific. It's one of the story's many motifs, like the constant racial
allusions ("turn all the atlases pink", Ace's story about Manisha,
Inspector MacKenzie's casual racism) and of course about the idea of
change - which is then contrasted with Victorian conservatism, summed
up by the revelation that Josiah Smith doesn't kill his specimens but
holds them in stasis (and that's why the insects come back to life,
because they were never actually dead, just preserved like Inspector
MacKenzie. That's my reading of it anyway).
Is this loose, multi-faceted, non-linear structure better or worse than
the traditional Doctor Who way of telling a story? Um, I would only say
that it's different, and is probably better adapted to the
fourteen-episode season as more can be said (or hinted at) in a shorter
space of time. Set against that, it's much easier to get this type of
story wrong, as if the writing's not top-notch then it can degenerate
into an utter mess. Really, though, it's a question of personal
preference. I tend to be suckered in by individual sequences rather
than clear storylines, but I can see why people might object to it.
Me, I really enjoy it.
I enjoy Ian Hogg's magnificent performance as an alien, I enjoy the
off-kilter, almost drunken way he delivers his dialogue. I enjoy
Aldred's wonderfully-acted scenes. I enjoy the understated way that the
script portrays a Neanderthal butler, I love the way Light is voiced, I
love the "monkey-house" song, I adore Gwendoline's stylised facial
expressions and the way they contrast with Ace's naturalism (more
references to appearance there), and I revel in McCoy giving his best
performance, except for one extraordinary aberration - the "forget the
survey and go" scene, which lovers of Ghost Light tactfully ignore. The
stunning moments come thick and fast. This kind of storytelling has
been called "self-indulgent" by some, but that thinking ignores the
thematic consistency underlying the story. It has also been called
pretentious, but I'd prefer to think of it as ambitious; and as an
accusation, "pretentious" is bloody annoying, as it suggests that
Doctor Who has no right to take itself seriously. This certainly isn't
true since even a story like The Androids of Tara takes itself
seriously in its own way.
It's aided no end by being one of Doctor Who's most stylish
productions, with the Gabriel Chase flawlessly created and more or less
everything being utterly convincing; the husks would hold their own on
television today, so by the standard of the time they're remarkable.
The direction is hugely atmospheric, with a whole host of close-ups,
but to counterbalance some scenes are shot with a gutsy lack of
showiness. Josiah's "I'm a man of property" is particularly brave,
showing us Josiah's back and relying on Hogg's body language and voice
to convey Josiah's emotions, and therefore displaying the various
emotions of everyone else at the table when confronted with this
breakdown. In addition the music is outstanding. This story might have
been written off as just another quirky McCoy tale if this end of
things wasn't so impressive. However, we sometimes forget that at this
stage of Who's history, with the short season and relatively high
budget, it's not ridiculous to expect that side of things to be of a
reasonable standard.
The dialogue is wonderful, with more one-liners than any other story.
In fact the only place the script falls down is in the creation of
Inspector MacKenzie and Mrs Gross, both of whom are the kind of
stereotypes that the Cartmel era was guilty of producing rather too
often. Still, that's a minor quibble.
Another thing said, in The Pocket Essentials Guide To Doctor Who, is
that "you can hear the nails being hammered in Doctor Who's coffin as
you watch it." Hmm; I think this is crap, frankly, which assumes Doctor
Who means nice, light, 26-episodes-a-season Doctor Who. This is a
different sort of Doctor Who, set up for shorter seasons, with
weightier stories that say a lot more. It's therefore inevitable
they'll be less straightforward. Ghost Light is more about creating an
atmosphere than anything else; there are all sorts of questions hanging
unresolved at the conclusion, and still more with answers that are
implied rather than stated. But the story works differently to other
stories, and we're supposed to enjoy it in a different way...
...and prepare for the dodgiest metaphor you'll ever hear...
...for, if most Doctor Who stories are solid things, to be measured and
quantified, then Ghost Light is liquid. It shifts and alters, it's
indefinite, and the tighter you grasp it the more it will escape you.
So enjoy the feel, and grab what you can. That's the level at which
it's supposed to work; and at that level it's a magnificent piece of
television.
Michelle Monarch
NewcastleBoy wrote:
> >The only story i've really liked of the new
> series is the Doctor Who Christmas Invasion.
>
>
> William Hartnell
> Sylvester McCoy
> Colin Baker
> Peter Davison
> Patrick Troughton
> Jon Pertwee
> Tom Baker
> Christopher Ecclestone
>
You've only really liked one story of the new series (the Tennant one),
and yet CE is your favorite Doc? I'm confused.
Michelle
Ian Salsbury
"Michelle Monarch" <michelle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138815114.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Perhaps he enjoyed Ecclseton`s portrayal but not the stories themselves. I
can relate to this in as much as I love Hartnell`s Doctor but his era is one
of my least favourites ( certainly of the first 5 Doctor`s ).
Michelle Monarch
>
> Perhaps he enjoyed Ecclseton`s portrayal but not the stories themselves. I
> can relate to this in as much as I love Hartnell`s Doctor but his era is one
> of my least favourites ( certainly of the first 5 Doctor`s ).
>
Certainly - but I would think anyone's favorite Doctor would appear in
at least *one* story they could they 'really liked.' But perhaps not -
Pertwee's still one of my favorites, and yet I'd only rate a couple of
his stories among the best of the best . . . .
Michelle
NewcastleBoy
<michelle...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>You've only really liked one story of the new series (the Tennant one),
>and yet CE is your favorite Doc? I'm confused.
>
>Michelle
>
IMHO, regardless of story content, CE convincingly is the best Doctor.
I've enjoyed watching him each week throughout the new Doctor Who
series. I've been impressed with his movies I've seen him in - Shallow
Grave, The Others etc. I think he's a top actor and it was sad to see
him go. I also think David Tennant will be a very good replacement
too. A friend of mine said he was Russell T. Davies' partner, and that
he had wanted to play Doctor Who since he was in high school.
While I think the new series' stories are a little on the strange side
/ anaemic side of things (soapish even), they make the later episodes
of the old Doctor Who series look almost completely unwatchable.
CE was brilliant as the Doctor.
- NewcastleBoy
Michelle Monarch
NewcastleBoy wrote:
>
>I also think David Tennant will be a very good replacement
> too. A friend of mine said he was Russell T. Davies' partner
>
He is??? That one's news to me.
Michelle
stePH
NewcastleBoy wrote:
>
> I also think David Tennant will be a very good replacement
> too. A friend of mine said he was Russell T. Davies' partner, and that
> he had wanted to play Doctor Who since he was in high school.
"Partner" as in business, or as in romantic/sexual relationship?
stePH
unapologetic McCoy fan
secure heterosexual
Avenger
"Mike Morris" <nyder_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138808506.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dburns2006-B wrote:
>> As if the knife hadn't been twisted enough, we now have to endure the
>> laughable attempts of the production team in trying to convince us that
>> there is a darker side to the McCoy Doctor. There isn't. The only
>> darkness
>> about him is the shit brown of his coat. Ghostlight is a script of such
>> incompetence that it makes Battlefield look positively sophisticated.
>> Stir
>> in a cast that will have you cringing at every opportunity and plenty of
>> awful moments and you have the perfect soup - steaming brown shit soup.
<snip rebuttal longer than the story itself!>
> ...for, if most Doctor Who stories are solid things, to be measured and
> quantified, then Ghost Light is liquid. It shifts
It's shit soup!
--
Chancellor Goth
The Doctor: I learned not to meddle in other people's affairs years ago.
[Ian laughs]
The Doctor: Now, now, now, don't be absurd. There's not an ounce of
curiosity in me, my dear boy.
[turns to Maitland]
The Doctor: Now tell me, why are you in danger?
Dburns2006-B
"Avenger" <n...@spam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dru2pe$2fb$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Mike Morris" <nyder_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1138808506.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Dburns2006-B wrote:
>
>>> As if the knife hadn't been twisted enough, we now have to endure the
>>> laughable attempts of the production team in trying to convince us that
>>> there is a darker side to the McCoy Doctor. There isn't. The only
>>> darkness
>>> about him is the shit brown of his coat. Ghostlight is a script of such
>>> incompetence that it makes Battlefield look positively sophisticated.
>>> Stir
>>> in a cast that will have you cringing at every opportunity and plenty of
>>> awful moments and you have the perfect soup - steaming brown shit soup.
>
> <snip rebuttal longer than the story itself!>
>
>> ...for, if most Doctor Who stories are solid things, to be measured and
>> quantified, then Ghost Light is liquid. It shifts
>
> It's shit soup!
Just add Morris to the killfile. He likes things that are shitty.
Mike Morris
Dburns2006-B wrote:
Well I can't argue with that sort of logic... :-)
>
> Just add Morris to the killfile. He likes things that are shitty.
mmm... shitty things...