"End of Time" lingering mysteries
Monsieur Tabernac
raised in "The End of Time":
http://io9.com/5439138/figuring-out-doctor-whos-lingering-mysteries
"The End of Time" wrapped up the Russell T. Davies era of Doctor Who
with a bang, but it left a bunch of unanswered questions behind.
Perhaps the solutions are already right there in front of us.
Speculation time!
I'll try to avoid any overly obscure questions like, "What happened to
that nice doctor fellow Martha was engaged to?" or pedantically
fannish quibbles like, "Why does the Doctor keep insisting he's 906
when he was already 953 in 'Time and the Rani'!?" I'll also skip
questions like, "Did the Master survive?" because at this point it's
pretty clear that the Master always survives, even when he dies.
Instead, let's focus on the big mysteries of "The End of Time", in
particular ones that the characters themselves note are still
unexplained. Let's start with a relatively easy one.
Was that really Rassilon? Like, the Rassilon?
As an uber-geeky old school Doctor Who fan, the most surprising part
of "The End of Time" was when the Doctor suddenly addressed Timothy
Dalton's President as Rassilon. For those unfamiliar with all of
Doctor Who's nearly fifty-year history, Rassilon was known and revered
by all Time Lords as the founder of their society. First mentioned in
the 1976 story "The Deadly Assassin", Rassilon was credited as the
ancient Gallifreyan who harnessed the power of a supernova to make
time travel possible. He then became the first Lord President, and
ruled for an undisclosed length of time before passing into history.
His biggest role in the classic series was in the twentieth
anniversary special "The Five Doctors", in which four of the Doctor's
incarnations, a bunch of old companions, and a host of enemies are
brought to the Death Zone, a region of Gallifrey used in ancient times
for what were essentially massive gladiatorial battles. The whole
thing is part of a frankly ludicrous scheme by a rogue Time Lord to
create a safe path to the Tomb of Rassilon, which lies at the heart of
the Death Zone, so that he can gain Rassilon's secret of immortality.
At the very end of the special, we see a projection of the apparently
deceased Rassilon, who congratulates the victorious Doctors for
playing his game successfully.
So what's he doing, seemingly alive and well in "The End of Time"?
There is, of course, a precedent for Time Lords resurrecting fallen
members of their race to fight in the Time War. As the Master
explained in "The Sound of Drums", this was precisely why the Time
Lords brought him back from the dead. If they were desperate enough to
gamble on a genocidal lunatic, why not also bring back your first and
greatest leader too? Of course, if Rassilon really was immortal - a
point "The Five Doctors" dances around - he might just have been
resting in his Tomb, awaiting a vast enough crisis to necessitate his
return.
Either way, there's a long precedent for his descent into villainy. In
"The Five Doctors", the Second Doctor explains to the Brigadier that
there were rumors that Rassilon was actually a cruel tyrant, who
crushed all who opposed him. The expanded universe has explored this
side of Rassilon at great length. The novels Cat's Cradle: Time's
Crucible and Lungbarrow, both by Marc Platt (who wrote the classic
Doctor Who serial "Ghost Light"), traced Rassilon's rise to power and
the often brutal steps he took to consolidate control.
The Big Finish audios have also dealt with Rassilon, casting him a
similarly devious light. Voiced by Don Warrington (who played the
president of the alternate Britain in "Rise of the Cybermen"),
Rassilon lives on in the Matrix, a sort of virtual reality computer
system that houses all of Gallifrey's accumulated knowledge. He is
depicted as a genocidal figure that has schemed throughout Gallifrey's
history to destroy all species that show even the slightest chance of
gaining access to time travel. He attempts to use the Eighth Doctor as
a weapon against a race known as the Divergents in his final bid to
ensure the Time Lords' continued supremacy.
As such, there's every reason to think that that really was the
original Rassilon, back in the flesh and supremely villainous. In any
event, what's the alternative? That this was just some other Time Lord
that happened to also be called Rassilon? I somehow doubt that
Rassilon is a common name, even on a planet called Gallifrey. Now
let's look at some more difficult questions.
Who was the mysterious woman in white?
This is one is absolutely massive - it's a big enough question that
Wilf even interrupts the Doctor's epilogue to ask him about it - but
it may already be answered. Pretty much all available evidence points
to the fact that Claire Bloom played the Doctor's mother. It was
rumored by the British tabloids way back in April, it was sort of
confirmed by outgoing executive producer Julie Gardner in the
commentary for part two of the "End of Time" (although fellow
commentator Russell T. Davies remained far, far more ambiguous on this
point), and it's the explanation that's most in keeping with Davies's
overall approach to Doctor Who. Case closed. Or is it?
Let's try to just look at what's in the episodes themselves. Claire
Bloom appears in two capacities in "The End of Time" - as some sort of
vision to Wilf, and as a dissenting Time Lady made to kneel behind
Rassilon when the Time Lords reenter the universe. She doesn't speak
in the latter appearance, but the Doctor definitely appears to
recognize her and understand what she's trying to relate to him about
the Gallifreyan diamond. Oh, and the musical selection "The Doctor's
Theme" plays when the Doctor first makes eye contact with her.
(Specifically, it's the part that Russell T. Davies has jokingly
called "Flavia's Theme", so named because the woman singing sounds
like she's singing from the Time Vortex and Chancellor Flavia was a
Time Lady in "The Five Doctors." If you want to take that to mean
Claire Bloom actually played a regenerated version of a minor
supporting character from the early eighties...well, be my guest.)
As far as her interactions with Wilf go, they mostly consist of a
whole bunch of cryptic statements, prophecies, and calls to arms. She
calls Wilf "an old soldier", which is in keeping with somebody
presumably still living through the Time War. When he actually asks
her who she is, her only response is, "I was lost. So very long ago."
When he later asks the same question to the Doctor, he gets no
response. Instead, the Doctor stares off at...somebody. He either
looks at Wilf, Donna's mother, Donna, or some combination of those
three. Exactly who you think that somebody is depends on how you want
to interpret the rest of the evidence.
You see, there are a couple alternative theories that have circulated
since the transmission of "The End of Time." Both focus on old
companions of the Doctor, and neither is completely ridiculous. (OK,
they're both kind of ridiculous. Just not completely.) The first
possibility is that this is actually Susan, the Doctor's
granddaughter. In that case, the Doctor looked first at Wilf, then at
Donna, indicating the common relationship. The fact that the woman in
white said she was lost long ago makes sense for Susan, considering
she was stranded on a post-apocalyptic Earth by the First Doctor (this
decision made slightly more sense in context).
Then there's the possibility that Claire Bloom actually played Romana,
the Time Lady who traveled with Tom Baker's Doctor. In that case, the
"lost...long ago" line would probably refer to the time she spent in
E-Space, a pocket universe distinct from own. Romana is also one of
the few characters other than the Doctor who we have seen regenerate,
so there would be some precedent for bringing in a new actress to play
the part. (On the other hand, there's really no reason why they
couldn't have just brought back Lalla Ward, who was the most recent
Romana in the series and still plays the character in Big Finish
audios. Indeed, her husband Richard Dawkins already appeared in the
series, in "The Stolen Earth.")
The other slight point in Romana's favor is that the character
appeared during on the most popular eras of classic Doctor Who, so her
return would make slightly more sense from an audience recognition
standpoint than that of, say, Susan. Oh, and in this scenario, the
Doctor simply looked at Donna, because they were both his companion.
Of course.
All of this might seem rather hugely unlikely, and it probably is.
Claire Bloom, in all likelihood, really was the Doctor's mother, and
so the Doctor looked at Sylvia Noble, then her daughter Donna, in
keeping with their common maternal ties. The one thing that still
doesn't quite make sense is the significance of her being lost, but
that might be explained by her actually being dead for a long period
before the Time War. Along with the Master and Rassilon, the Time
Lords might well have brought back everyone to fight in the Time War,
including the Doctor's mother. If nothing else, it would explain why
previous incarnations of the Doctor had claimed his family was dead
and gone.
Why are the Ood so advanced?
In just a single century, the Ood have gone from creatures without
free will to beings with tremendous insight into time and space. Ood
Sigma can reach more than two millennia back in time to summon the
Doctor, and the Chief Ood can sense weaknesses and coming alterations
in the fabric of time. The Doctor remarks that this is a problem, but
he never gets a chance to follow up on it. The Doctor says, "Something
is advancing his species way beyond normal", and the Elder Ood later
offers that "The Ood have gained this power to see through time
because time is bleeding."
But I'm not entirely convinced that the latter explains the former.
Even if this is true, why have the Ood in particular been granted this
gift? It might have something to do with their natural telepathy and
the power of the main Ood Mind, but it still doesn't logically follow
in and of itself that this should grant them mastery of time. And
anyway, the Doctor seems to be just as wowed by their advanced
architecture as he is their temporal abilities. I suspect there's a
bigger story here.
Something sentient is actively driving forward their development, and
I'll go ahead and suggest the intended goal might be the creation of a
successor race to the Time Lords. After all, they're surprisingly
decent candidates. They are naturally peaceful and benevolent, with an
apparent preference for non-interference. They take rather naturally
to the mindbending nature of time travel, what with events happening
simultaneously two thousand years apart.
If you're looking for parallels within the stories, both parts of "The
End of Time" begin with the elders of the respective races - the Ood
in part one, the Time Lords in part two - sitting in counsel,
discussing threats to their existence and various prophecies. Ood
Sigma even functions a bit like the lone Time Lords in classic Doctor
Who stories like "Colony in Space" or "Genesis of the Daleks", where
they direct him the Doctor to his mission. (Although his role in
bringing the Doctor to his regeneration more recalls the Watcher in
"Logopolis." But that was sort of a Time Lord too.) My guess is that
this is a story thread that will be picked up at a later date. But
what is the greater force that is doing all this to the Ood, you ask?
Well, to answer that, there's another question I need to tackle.
What's the deal with Wilf?
The Doctor has been wondering about his connection to Wilf since
series four, and he spends a decent amount of their conversation in
the cafe in part one wondering about it. He doesn't arrive at any
clear answer, although it might be useful to look at his immediate
follow-up to the question, "Why you?" The very next thing he says is,
"I'm going to die", and considering what we learn about Wilf's role in
the Doctor's regeneration, there might just be some significance to
that. Wilf is significant because he's part of the prophecy, and
that's why he keeps meeting the Doctor.
Well, maybe. But that just seems to shift the problem back a level.
Even if Wilf is important only insofar as he's part of the prophecy of
the Tenth Doctor's death, that doesn't answer why that prophecy exerts
so much influence over events. Something still seems to be
manipulating their lives in ways that can't be just coincidence. In
previous arcs, figures like Bad Wolf Rose and Dalek Caan have proven
capable of manipulating events in similar ways, but their influence
over time apparently ended with the conclusions of their respective
stories. But perhaps something else is going on.
There's a lot of talk in "The End of Time" about how there is a
grander design at work, and that idea recurs throughout. Joshua
Naismith thinks he's in control of his Immortality Gate, but he
becomes ensnared in the Master's latest insane plan. The Master thinks
he has finally destroyed humanity forever and created an army capable
of conquering the universe, but all he's really doing is setting the
stage for the return of the Time Lords. Even once you strip away the
actions and manipulations of the Time Lords, there are still plenty of
things in "The End of Time" that appear to be the work of still some
larger plan by something even greater than the Time Lords.
In fact, this brings up another, perhaps even more important question
about the woman in white. Honestly, it doesn't really matter whether
she's the Doctor's mother, granddaughter, or former companion. How
exactly did she manage to communicate with Wilf at all? How did she
break through the time lock to communicate with him, particularly when
getting through at all was almost insuperably difficult for the rest
of the Time Lords? And even if she had figured out a way to project
herself, when exactly was she doing this? There didn't seem to be all
that much time between the Lord President calling for a vote and
leading his people to Earth. Unless we missed the scene where all the
Time Lords took a couple hours to deliberate, it's not obvious when
she could have squeezed in the time to drop all these hints to Wilf.
Let's see if we can't put all of this together. There's an entire race
whose development is being massively accelerated, perhaps with the
purpose of making the Ood the new Time Lords. (Even if that's too much
of a stretch, they clearly have an incredibly strong connection to
time, perhaps second only to that of the Doctor.) There's an
unimportant old man whose life keeps intersecting with the Doctor's in
ways that far too improbable to be the result of mere coincidence.
There's a mysterious but benevolent woman in completely white clothing
that keeps showing up to steer events towards the best possible
conclusion for the Doctor and, indeed, all existence. If I didn't know
any better, I'd say this is all the work of the White Guardian.
For those who haven't memorized every detail of the classic series,
the White Guardian was an almost omnipotent figure who first appeared
in Tom Baker's fifth season on Doctor Who. He sent the fourth Doctor
on a yearlong quest to find the missing pieces of the Key to Time, a
mystical object that would allow him to stave off the growing
influence of his evil counterpart, the Black Guardian. True to his
name, the White Guardian always wore completely white ensembles
whenever he appeared, something he shares with Claire Bloom's
character. Perhaps she appeared with the assistance of the White
Guardian to act as his agent in the fight to protect cosmic order?
(Interestingly, the White Guardian was the one who first brought the
Doctor and Romana together, meaning she has some experience working
for him. Make that another point in Romana's favor then.)
The White Guardian might seem a bit too obscure a figure to bring
back, but he and the Black Guardian are about all that's left from the
classic series that would pose truly massive threats to the Doctor. I
don't know if Steven Moffat shares Davies's obsession with constantly
upping the stakes in every series finale, but just about the only
conceivable way to top the threat of the Time Lords would be to place
the Doctor in the middle of an all-out war between what are
essentially gods. It all fits together so perfectly!
Or I'm just talking nonsense. Probably more likely, really. Speaking
of which...
Who was that silhouetted figure at the back of the church?
All right, now I am almost quite literally jumping at shadows, but
I've got to say - that is one distracting background figure at the
start of part one. I thought for sure that figure was going to be
revealed as somebody important when I first watched it. The Master,
maybe. But apparently not, considering he was still dead at that
point.
I'll try to resist the urge to play armchair director, but there just
seems like zero reason for Euros Lyn to compose the shot with such a
noticeable figure when that person has absolutely no significance to
the rest of the scene. Honestly, it's probably nothing, but maybe,
just maybe, it's the first clue to something absolutely massive down
the road. My money's on an agent of the Black Guardian. Partially
because the figure is shrouded in darkness, and also because I might
as well get as much mileage as I can out of this whole Guardian idea.
You heard it here first!
Who was the other dissenting Time Lord?
So, only two Time Lords in all of Gallifrey dared to stand against
Rassilon in his moment of triumph. We at least know something about
the one on the right, but who was the other one? In all honesty, I'm
not even sure if that was a Time Lord or a Time Lady. Either way, the
Gallifreyan in question is the only other person with the courage to
oppose Rassilon's monstrous plan, and we don't know anything about him
or her.
There are a couple obvious points of speculation. From a purely
practical perspective, it's more aesthetically pleasing to frame two
dissenters on either side of Rassilon as opposed to just the one.
Indeed, without a second Gallifreyan to kneel next to her, Claire
Bloom might have been just a tad too obvious as a person of
significance before the big reveal. That's probably the actual reason
for the second Gallifreyan, but once that character is introduced, it
does raise the question about who that person is.
The obvious answer is that, if the Doctor's mother is on the right,
then the Doctor's father really ought to be on the left. But that
seems sort of, well, dumb, particularly in an episode where the Doctor
actually talks about how proud he'd be if Wilf was his dad. It doesn't
really line up thematically. The better answer is that, at this point,
it could be anybody, and Russell T. Davies has left Steven Moffat with
an interesting figure to make use of later on should he so choose.
After all, this is apparently a Time Lord (or Lady) that's actually
worth saving. That's a pretty compelling person to come back to.
(If you want my guess as to his identity, I'll go with the
Cockney-accented, generally useless Time Lord Drax from the "The
Armageddon Factor", the final serial in the Key to Time season.
Because I might as well push my "Everything in 'The End of Time' is
explained by The Key to Time" theory to its absurd logical extreme.)
What is the Moment, and what did the Doctor do with it?
Every series finale seems to reveal new information about the Time
War, and considering we actually sort of see some of it in "The End of
Time", it's not surprising we learn a few shocking new details.
Although most of what we hear are more details meant to convey the
sheer incomprehensibility of the Time War - the Nightmare Child is
mentioned again, along with new additions like the wonderfully named
Could've Been King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres - there
is one tidbit that might matter later on.
When the doomed Time Lady offers a status report on the Doctor to
Rassilon at the beginning of part two, we learn that the Doctor "still
possesses the Moment and he'll use it to destroy Daleks and Time Lords
alike." Now, from a storytelling perspective, mentioning the Moment
may not have any significance in and of itself. After all, it's
necessary to establish that this is the last day of the Time War and
that the Time Lords know their destruction is close at hand. Since we
already know the Doctor was the one that end the Time War, mentioning
the Doctor in his capacity as Gallifrey's destroyer makes perfect
sense. So maybe the Moment is just a matter of narrative convenience,
and we won't hear about it again.
Still, for the first time, we know what the Doctor used to end the
Time War, or more accurately we know its name. We can at least assume
it is a thing of immense power, and the fact that it is called "the
Moment" suggests it has something to do with the nature of time
itself. Whatever it is, it seems like just the kind of item Steven
Moffat might need if he ever wants to bring the Time Lords back to
stay. As such, there's a decent chance that this isn't the last we've
heard of the Moment, especially now that the Master is presumably
trapped in the Time War and could conceivably gain access to it.
And no, I won't suggest that the Moment is actually the Key to Time.
Although now that I mention it...
imipak
wrote:
(snip)
Well, I had been predicting Rassilon would be involved in any return
of Gallifrey, so no surprise there. (Apologies from the doubters would
be nice, but this is radw and those are about as likely as finding a
segment of a key to time on Silbury Plain.)
The biggest surprise to me is that Rassilon would have been on
Gallifrey. In Five Doctors, he exists as a projection. In BF audios,
he's a virtual persona in the Matrix for the most part. Well,
technically, he was in all Gallifreyan episodes other than Five
Doctors, as all brains of former Presidents form a part of it, and the
only way Rassilon could have interfered in Invasion of Time was via
the Matrix. (The Demat design plans came from somewhere, as did
knowledge on how to manipulate the defensive system.)
It would be easy for a virtual persona, especially one who knew the
problem ahead, to bail out. Since Earth had been predicted to be
potentially equal to Gallifrey (Trial of a Timelord) and Rassilon
would have plenty of time from 20th C to the point of actually being
equal to have manipulated human psyche, that would have been a far
more sensible place for him. He could set himself up as a God quite
easily, with no risk of interference.#
Other problems I have with the story include The Master suddenly
gaining Superman powers and the drumming. Sorry, but Dr Who isn't a
product of Marvel or DC Comics. The drumming is unnecessary, since we
know Timelords can embed some or all of their persona into systems
(the Matrix and the Fob watch respectively) and therefore the key and
trigger could have been embedded into any system in his TARDIS with
zero side-effects until needed. Rassilon is not an amateur at this.
Ergo, that entire line is bogus.
The Queen Elizabeth reference in Part 1 is clearly intended to bind
the Shakespere story's ending with the fact that no other story would
explain her behaviour. Torchwood clearly doesn't, as everyone observed
at the time. In short, the off-the-cuff references are blatant ways to
explain away all the continuity errors they were too stupid to have
avoided at the time.
However, my biggest problem of all with the story is that it was ultra-
hyped and will cause a collapse in ratings that will be blamed on
RTD's successor, not on RTD's pathetic efforts. He has ensured that
there will be an illusion of him being a popular director when, in
truth, he was an incompetent who couldn't tell the difference between
SF, superhero fantasy and spotty teenager fantasy.
Ross
> However, my biggest problem of all with the story is that it was ultra-
> hyped and will cause a collapse in ratings that will be blamed on
> RTD's successor, not on RTD's pathetic efforts. He has ensured that
> there will be an illusion of him being a popular director when, in
> truth, he was an incompetent who couldn't tell the difference between
> SF, superhero fantasy and spotty teenager fantasy.
Yes, just keep telling yourself that the "big ratings collapse" will
come, like you have for the past five years.
Hopefully, some day this nightmare where Doctor Who is one of the
highest-watched shows on television will come to an end, and it can go
back to being the laughable playground joke whose fans get roughed up
after school that we all know and love.
The Face of Po
imipak got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> The drumming is unnecessary, since we
> know Timelords can embed some or all of their persona into systems
> (the Matrix and the Fob watch respectively) and therefore the key and
> trigger could have been embedded into any system in his TARDIS with
> zero side-effects until needed. Rassilon is not an amateur at this.
> Ergo, that entire line is bogus.
Any number of handwaves can explain why their usual technology was
inappropriate for this. Embedding the drumming in the Master's head is,
IMHO, a valid bit of plotting, like the "Bad Wolf" self-perpetuating
meme might have been if the references had been fewer and less
incongruous.
But retconning the drumming as the motivation for the Master's
previous villainous behaviour by saying nothing more than "it sent him
mad" is incredibly lazy.
--
Happiness will prevail
Monsieur Tabernac
Well, you could say it was only the Master who blamed the drumming for
his madness (and his life), whereas looking into the Vortex as a child
was probably what really caused him to go loopy (perhaps coupled with
meglomania running in his family).
Stephen Wilson
"imipak" <imi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6a3ab03c-1d8c-4405...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>
>However, my biggest problem of all with the story is that it was ultra-
>hyped and will cause a collapse in ratings that will be blamed on
>RTD's successor, not on RTD's pathetic efforts. He has ensured that
>there will be an illusion of him being a popular director when, in
>truth, he was an incompetent who couldn't tell the difference between
>SF, superhero fantasy and spotty teenager fantasy.
Quite. When RTD brought Dr Who back, his first episode was broadcast on 26
March 2005. It attracted an audience of 9.9 million viewers. Way more than
was anticipated, especially considering Survival only managed 4.93 million.
Of course, the 9.9 million only tuned in because of all the hype. Almost 5
years later, it's clear that the viewers have wised up to "RTD's pathetic
efforts" with only 10.4 million people still watching the show. The Daily
Telegraph's reviewer summed up that last show as "a barnstorming hour of
family entertainment." Just as well RTD's left, but I'm sure he'll be
remembered as the man who killed Dr Who. Shame JNT wasn't on hand to point
him in the right direction...
Ignis Fatuus
I've been outspoken in my criticism of RTD over the last five years;
but I have to agree without reservation that his resurrection of
Doctor Who has been, not flawless, but certainly Triumphant. The broad
appeal of the show is sufficient justification of his approach; and
there's plenty of material there to satisfy newcomers and die-hard
fans alike. If others don't match up to this legacy, it certainly
won't be His fault.
The Doctor
Irony.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.myspace.com/502748630
Born 29 Jan 1969 Redhill,Surrey,England UK
AlanSailsbury
wrote:
>
> Was that really Rassilon? Like, the Rassilon?
>
Yes. That's who The Doctor called him. So it was.
Next?
The Doctor
AlanSailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Jan 4, 8:58=A0pm, Monsieur Tabernac <mtaber...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>
I have my doubts. I doubt that was THE Rassilon.
AlanSailsbury
> In article <80e374da-2ea6-448b-b2f5-ce37aee51...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
>
> AlanSailsbury <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Jan 4, 8:58=A0pm, Monsieur Tabernac <mtaber...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >> Was that really Rassilon? Like, the Rassilon?
>
> >Yes. That's who The Doctor called him. So it was.
>
> >Next?
>
> I have my doubts. I doubt that was THE Rassilon.
> --
Why is it so difficult for you to accept something that the WRITER of
the show had the LEAD CHARACTER say? It doesn't get any more canon
than that! Live with it!
Ross
Except the doctor didn't *say* it was Rassilon, he *called him*
Rassilon. For example, if I were to call you a fuckwit, I somehow
doubt anyone would take it as evidence that "Fuckwit" was your name.
AlanSailsbury
That's a pretty fuckwitted analogy because "fuckwit" isn't a person's
name, but "Rassilon" has been established AS a character's name. A
better analogy would be if The Doctor called him "Ross" it'd be fairly
obvious he was called Ross. Or do we now dispute that "Rose" wasn't
her real name? Or "Sarah Jane" was really someone else entirely? WTF
is wrong with fans?
What is the problem with fans accepting that he's Rassilon? I don't
get it. RTD is a fan himself, he knows the return of Rassilon would
cause controversy but you know what, - tough shit. RTD was the
producer and writer and if he says a character is Rassilon HE IS
RASSILON. It's pretty moronic to ignore the facts on screen in favour
of some fanwankery excuses.
Fans can pretend the character was someone else but I'm afraid the
ACTUAL TV SERIES proves otherwise. That's the way it is. Deal with it
and stop being so bloody idiotic.
The Doctor
Ross <rras...@trenchcoatsoft.com> wrote:
>On Jan 7, 5:24=A0pm, AlanSailsbury <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 1:04=A0am, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>>
>> > In article <80e374da-2ea6-448b-b2f5-ce37aee51...@26g2000yqo.googlegroup=
>s.com>,
>>
>> > AlanSailsbury =A0<alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > >On Jan 4, 8:58=3DA0pm, Monsieur Tabernac <mtaber...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>
>> > >wrote:
>>
>> > >> Was that really Rassilon? Like, the Rassilon?
>>
>> > >Yes. That's who The Doctor called him. So it was.
>>
>> > >Next?
>>
>> > --
>>
>> Why is it so difficult for you to accept something that the WRITER of
>> the show had the LEAD CHARACTER say? It doesn't get any more canon
>> than that! Live with it!
>
>
>Except the doctor didn't *say* it was Rassilon, he *called him*
>Rassilon. For example, if I were to call you a fuckwit, I somehow
10/10 Ross
The Face of Po
AlanSailsbury got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> On Jan 7, 7:51 pm, Ross <rrasz...@trenchcoatsoft.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 5:24 pm, AlanSailsbury <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 7, 1:04 am, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>>
>> > > In article <80e374da-2ea6-448b-b2f5-ce37aee51...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> > > AlanSailsbury <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > >On Jan 4, 8:58=A0pm, Monsieur Tabernac <mtaber...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>
>> > > >wrote:
>>
>> > > >> Was that really Rassilon? Like, the Rassilon?
>>
>> > > >Yes. That's who The Doctor called him. So it was.
>>
>> > > >Next?
>>
>> > > I have my doubts. I doubt that was THE Rassilon.
>>
>> > the show had the LEAD CHARACTER say? It doesn't get any more canon
>> > than that! Live with it!
>>
>> Except the doctor didn't *say* it was Rassilon, he *called him*
>> Rassilon. For example, if I were to call you a fuckwit, I somehow
>> doubt anyone would take it as evidence that "Fuckwit" was your name.
>
> That's a pretty fuckwitted analogy because "fuckwit" isn't a person's
> name, but "Rassilon" has been established AS a character's name. A
> better analogy would be if The Doctor called him "Ross" it'd be fairly
> obvious he was called Ross. Or do we now dispute that "Rose" wasn't
> her real name? Or "Sarah Jane" was really someone else entirely? WTF
> is wrong with fans?
It's not unknown for people to use the name of a famous person from
history as an insult or joke. The warden from "Dad's Army" frequently
called Capt Mainwaring "Napoleon", and Donna called someone "Mussolini"
in "Turn Left".
I still reckon "Rassilon" was the character's actual name, though.
Either he's been resurrected from the state he was in in "Five Doctors",
or the latest Time Lord leader has assumed the title.
--
Happiness will prevail
john smith
"The Face of Po" <gkenn...@potatojunkie.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:hi7bnn$2tn$1...@spuduser.motzarella.org...
Does it really bloody matter either way?
> --
> Happiness will prevail
The Face of Po
>
> "The Face of Po" <gkenn...@potatojunkie.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:hi7bnn$2tn$1...@spuduser.motzarella.org...
>>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when
>> AlanSailsbury got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>>> On Jan 7, 7:51 pm, Ross <rrasz...@trenchcoatsoft.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 7, 5:24 pm, AlanSailsbury <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> > On Jan 7, 1:04 am, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>> > > AlanSailsbury <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> > > >On Jan 4, 8:58=A0pm, Monsieur Tabernac
Of course! It's important for calculating the average lifespan of a
Time Lord, or the current date in Gallifrey Mean Time, or something else
that I haven't thought of yet but will look damn good on a chart.
--
Happiness will prevail
David Stinson
You know, I'm amazed that people thinks it has to be a different Rassioln
- the first had the key to unlimited regenerations (personally I thought
it would have been better to use Borusa). Given the state of the Time
Lord's principles by that point, do you really think they would fail to
call upon Rassilon. I'd think they would have called upon Omega if they
could have.
Stephen Wilson
"David Stinson" <dsti...@nix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CFB6CF168E84ds...@69.16.185.250...
The Time Lords - their society, abilities, etc. - have never really been
properly fleshed out. Are they born with the power to regenerate? Is it
something bestowed on a select few Gallifreyans? Is it linked with the
TARDIS? Are they observers, fighters, a force for good, corrupt? How do they
reproduce?
None of that's really been addressed properly, and RTD's brief glimpse keeps
things similarly ambiguous. Dalton's Rassilon is obviously not a nice guy.
And that's really all we needed to know about him.
David Stinson
news:tu62n.33249$KK6....@newsfe19.ams2:
Rassilon - infinite regeneration is mentioned in The Five Doctors, along
with certain of his other negative habits.
The Time Lords were not always observers - they assisted the Minyans
early in the history and the mistakes made there caused a war that nearly
ended the Minyan race - which led to the non-intervention policy. (Fourth
Doctor - Underworld)
Some discussion is given to them in the series about getting involved in
the outside universe (ref: the Celestial Intervention Agency - Fourth
Doctor - The Deadly Assassin, Shada)
> None of that's really been addressed properly, and RTD's brief glimpse
> keeps things similarly ambiguous. Dalton's Rassilon is obviously not a
> nice guy. And that's really all we needed to know about him.
>
True.
The Doctor
The Doctor
Rassilon is entomb. He is dead. You do not
want the Resurrection of Rassilon!!
>
>The Time Lords were not always observers - they assisted the Minyans
>early in the history and the mistakes made there caused a war that nearly
>ended the Minyan race - which led to the non-intervention policy. (Fourth
>Doctor - Underworld)
>
>Some discussion is given to them in the series about getting involved in
>the outside universe (ref: the Celestial Intervention Agency - Fourth
>Doctor - The Deadly Assassin, Shada)
Genesis of the Daleks also comes to mind.
>
>> None of that's really been addressed properly, and RTD's brief glimpse
>> keeps things similarly ambiguous. Dalton's Rassilon is obviously not a
>> nice guy. And that's really all we needed to know about him.
>>
>
>True.
And He was called Rassilon, not being the Rassilon who was aided by
Omega.
Soze
"imipak" <imi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6a3ab03c-1d8c-4405...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>However, my biggest problem of all with the story is that it was ultra-
>hyped and will cause a collapse in ratings that will be blamed on
>RTD's successor, not on RTD's pathetic efforts. He has ensured that
>there will be an illusion of him being a popular director when, in
>truth, he was an incompetent who couldn't tell the difference between
>SF, superhero fantasy and spotty teenager fantasy.
The Xmas 2 parter was watched by around 11-12 million people, more than any
other programme over the holiday period and acheived AI figures of 89 and
87. Which means a vast amount of people watched it and an overwheleming
majority of them enjoyed it a great deal. It received very complimentary
reviews across the press and media ( apart from in The Sun ). If there is a
ratings collapse it`ll be entirely down to the quality of the next series.
I`ve no problem with your opinion of the quality of the RTD years but please
stop deluding yourself into thinking the masses agree. It`s probably the
BBC`s crown jewel at the moment and has arguably never been so popular in
it`s entire history.
Soze
"Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wils...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ij41n.12824$OJ6....@newsfe26.ams2...
> Almost 5 years later, it's clear that the viewers have wised up to "RTD's
> pathetic efforts" with only 10.4 million people still watching the show.
The final figures are even more impressive....
The End of Time, Part One had a final rating of 11.57 million on BBC One,
much higher than the initial overnight figure reported. This alone makes the
programme the 3rd highest rated on British Television for the week.
However if figures for those watching on BBC HD are included, as they
arguably should be given the programme was simulcast on both channels, then
an additional 470,000 viewers are added. This gives the episode a final
figure of 12.04 million viewers for its first showing, pushing the programme
into the lead as the most watched programme of Christmas week.
This makes the episode one of only two in Doctor Who's long history to have
been the most watched programme of the week. It is the 3rd highest rating
since the series returned in 2005, only beaten by two previous Christmas
specials, Voyage of the Damned and The Next Doctor. It has the 28th highest
rating in the series history.
Doctor Who was the fifth most watched programme of the year, only being
beaten by the Simon Cowell talent programmes. It was the highest rated
programme on all of BBC Domestic Television, the first time this has
happened. The previous highest place was 2nd for the year for The Voyage of
the Damned which lost out to EastEnders. It was the highest rated drama of
the year.
Another 1.18 million watched the repeat of the programme on BBC Three on
Sunday, double the initial overnight figure, with an additional770,000
watching on the iPlayer during the week. If the ratings for those who
watched the programme on any platform during the first week after
transmission are added together the total stands at an incredible 15.99
million.
Stephen O'Connell
news:7qslqr...@mid.individual.net...
>
> "imipak" <imi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6a3ab03c-1d8c-4405...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>hyped and will cause a collapse in ratings that will be blamed on
>>RTD's successor, not on RTD's pathetic efforts. He has ensured that
>>there will be an illusion of him being a popular director when, in
>>truth, he was an incompetent who couldn't tell the difference between
>>SF, superhero fantasy and spotty teenager fantasy.
>
> The Xmas 2 parter was watched by around 11-12 million people, more than any
> other programme over the holiday period and acheived AI figures of 89 and 87.
> Which means a vast amount of people watched it and an overwheleming majority
> of them enjoyed it a great deal. It received very complimentary reviews across
> the press and media ( apart from in The Sun ). If there is a ratings collapse
> it`ll be entirely down to the quality of the next series.
IF being the operative word.
> I`ve no problem with your opinion of the quality of the RTD years but please
> stop deluding yourself into thinking the masses agree. It`s probably the BBC`s
> crown jewel at the moment and has arguably never been so popular in it`s
> entire history.
Regardless of any reviews or ratings, the fact that the BBC One idents over the
Christmas period were Doctor Who themed was a BIG sign of the popularity of the
programme. Who here would have thought that we would be at this stage six years
ago?
David Stinson
news:hib634$j9u$1...@gallifrey.nk.ca:
The wearers of the Ring of Rassilon were shown as entombed but _not_ dead
(Five Doctors)
>>
>>The Time Lords were not always observers - they assisted the Minyans
>>early in the history and the mistakes made there caused a war that
>>nearly ended the Minyan race - which led to the non-intervention
>>policy. (Fourth Doctor - Underworld)
>>
>>Some discussion is given to them in the series about getting involved
>>in the outside universe (ref: the Celestial Intervention Agency -
>>Fourth Doctor - The Deadly Assassin, Shada)
>
> Genesis of the Daleks also comes to mind.
>
>>
>>> None of that's really been addressed properly, and RTD's brief
>>> glimpse keeps things similarly ambiguous. Dalton's Rassilon is
>>> obviously not a nice guy. And that's really all we needed to know
>>> about him.
>>>
>>
>>True.
>
> And He was called Rassilon, not being the Rassilon who was aided by
> Omega.
That is the bone of contention. Without more information, there is no way
to tell.
The Doctor
Immortal in perpetuity.
>
>>>
>>>The Time Lords were not always observers - they assisted the Minyans
>>>early in the history and the mistakes made there caused a war that
>>>nearly ended the Minyan race - which led to the non-intervention
>>>policy. (Fourth Doctor - Underworld)
>>>
>>>Some discussion is given to them in the series about getting involved
>>>in the outside universe (ref: the Celestial Intervention Agency -
>>>Fourth Doctor - The Deadly Assassin, Shada)
>>
>> Genesis of the Daleks also comes to mind.
>>
>>>
>>>> None of that's really been addressed properly, and RTD's brief
>>>> glimpse keeps things similarly ambiguous. Dalton's Rassilon is
>>>> obviously not a nice guy. And that's really all we needed to know
>>>> about him.
>>>>
>>>
>>>True.
>>
>> And He was called Rassilon, not being the Rassilon who was aided by
>> Omega.
>
>That is the bone of contention. Without more information, there is no way
>to tell.
Well what aboutthe Tomb of Rassilon and the Death Zone?
David Stinson
> In article <Xns9CFBAC21BB6D1ds...@69.16.185.250>,
> David Stinson <dsti...@nix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote in
>>news:hib634$j9u$1...@gallifrey.nk.ca:
>>>>> None of that's really been addressed properly, and RTD's brief
>>>>> glimpse keeps things similarly ambiguous. Dalton's Rassilon is
>>>>> obviously not a nice guy. And that's really all we needed to know
>>>>> about him.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>True.
>>>
>>> And He was called Rassilon, not being the Rassilon who was aided by
>>> Omega.
>>
>>That is the bone of contention. Without more information, there is no
>>way to tell.
>
> Well what aboutthe Tomb of Rassilon and the Death Zone?
Your point was that Dalton's Rassilon is not the same Rassilon as the
Tomb's or the Rassilon of Time Lord history. My point was that the
contended issue and that without more information from the show, it would
be impossible to determine that point.
