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Waters of Mars

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Ken Arromdee

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Dec 24, 2009, 9:40:53 AM12/24/09
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(More or less reposted from the unmoderated groups)

The biggest problem I had with this episode was that the idea of the Doctor
being able to save this person but not that person made no sense whatsoever,
and it seemed like he was doing the same thing he does most of the time,
except that this time the story didn't approve of it like it usually does.

There was no reason why he couldn't take Adelaide into the future (so
her family would think she's dead, thus keeping the timeline steady).
Nobody even *thought* of this solution, because it would ruin the tragedy of
her having to die.

And the idea of a fixed point makes no sense. Was that Dalek also a fixed
point? (destroy the Daleks, no Dalek to inspire Adelaide?) Why isn't
Sarah Jane, or Donna (or any companion), a fixed point considering
the effects they have on history? (which would lead to an abrupt, early, end
for Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane and Turn Left as the cosmic policemen
come to smash the villain. In fact, Turn Left is even worse, since Adelaide
herself couldn't have possibly gone to Mars in that timeline, so regardless
of whether Donna is a fixed point, that bug certainly destroyed one.)

Why wasn't *Harriet Jones* a fixed point, considering that driving her out
of office prevented her from starting Britain's Golden Age (and led to the
Master taking over, though that was reversed.) For that matter, the
Master's timeline wouldn't have had a spacefaring Adelaide in it, so wouldn't
the Master have received a quick visit from someone nasty for destroying a
fixed point?
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

Obi-wan Kenobi: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."

John Elliott

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Dec 24, 2009, 12:10:45 PM12/24/09
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Ken Arromdee <arro...@rahul.net> wrote:
: There was no reason why he couldn't take Adelaide into the future (so

: her family would think she's dead, thus keeping the timeline steady).
: Nobody even *thought* of this solution, because it would ruin the tragedy of
: her having to die.

The Doctor's the only one who knows that the TARDIS can travel in time,
and at that point he was hardly what you'd call calm and rational.

: And the idea of a fixed point makes no sense. Was that Dalek also a fixed


: point? (destroy the Daleks, no Dalek to inspire Adelaide?)

Now that's a good question. In the version of the timeline at the point
that 'Dalek' took place, no-one on Earth in 2012 knew what a Dalek was, so
Adelaide didn't see one.
(I don't believe that the Dalek deliberately spared her because it knew
she was a fixed point. I think it more likely that this was a random 'Time
corrects itself' event, like the Doctor's helmet breaking; the Dalek
would have been called away for something else).

: Why isn't Sarah Jane, or Donna (or any companion), a fixed point


: considering the effects they have on history? (which would lead to an
: abrupt, early, end for Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane and Turn Left as
: the cosmic policemen come to smash the villain. In fact, Turn Left is
: even worse, since Adelaide herself couldn't have possibly gone to Mars in
: that timeline, so regardless of whether Donna is a fixed point, that bug
: certainly destroyed one.)

We have to assume that the births of all the companions from the future
(Vicki, Steven, Zoe, Leela, Jack) are fixed points, since without them
history would have been massively derailed in 1066, 1968, 1902 and 2006
respectively. That rather puts paid to any timeline where humanity is
snuffed out before they exist, unless the Trickster sent time beetles to
those points to paper over the gaps.

: For that matter, the Master's timeline wouldn't have had a spacefaring


: Adelaide in it, so wouldn't the Master have received a quick visit from
: someone nasty for destroying a fixed point?

Considering that he was a fully-functioning Time Lord on the verge of
creating a new empire, I think he'd have had the power to defeat the someone
nasty -- the Doctor nearly managed to defeat the Reapers in /Father's Day/,
after all.

--
John Elliott

Thinks: This is what a nice clean life leads to. Hmm, why did I ever lead one?
-- Bluebottle, in the Goon Show

chas_m

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Dec 31, 2009, 10:32:07 AM12/31/09
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The simple answer to the question is that "fixed events" are whatever
that particular writer wants them to be in a given story.

I think broadly speaking, "fixed events" also have to be points in
Earth's history, at least those that have large-scale repercussions;
otherwise, why hasn't the Doctor gone back and stopped 9/11, or given
Hitler something else to do with his time?

What the Doctor didn't explain (though its made clear in "Fires of
Pompeii" is that sometimes HE is the catalyst that makes an event a
"fixed point," and also that he's sometimes unaware of this until
later. You can also see the effect of this in Leela's first story, The
Face of Evil; the Doctor recognises he is part of events and can't just
go back and fix the computer properly. This is but one of many
examples, going right the way back to The Aztecs. The Doctor himself
may be a "fixed event" which in turn manipulates other fixed events.

Taking Adelaide to the future might, as you say, have preserved the
myth of her death, but there's little doubt that she would have written
additional chapters of the timeline wherever he put her, so it was
inevitable that her contribution to the timeline of the universe ended
right then.

As for Donna, it's becoming clear that she IS a fixed event; there's
nothing been said that she isn't.

Finally, the point of the story (how sloppily you may think it was
executed) is the Doctor's self-revelation that "fixed points" are just
like "national borders"; imaginary lines drawn by someone else. In
other words, he comes to see that there AREN'T any fixed points, that
was a concept handed down and burned into his character by the Time
Lords. If he's the last man standing, he can rewrite the rules and
change history all he likes, or so he briefly believes.

Adelaide's death -- and the appearance of the Ood -- remind the Doctor
that although the rules of time were interference were written by the
Time Lords, they are in harmony with the natural order of the universe,
which has its own laws that not even he can undo. In short, in TWoM the
Doctor thinks he is finally free of all rules, and this causes him to
develop a God Complex. Time itself responds to this, making the Doctor
realise that he has not disposed of all enemies; Time itself is one if
he chooses to make war with it. Thus endeth (too soon IMO) the God
Complex.

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