EPCOT diagrams - original concept
Bootstrap Bill
"Peter Parnes" <Peter....@ltu.se> wrote in message
news:4067F1A9...@ltu.se...
> DOn't know about the original diagrams but there is tons of information
> about EPCOT at http://www.waltopia.com/
>
> -Peter
Thanks Peter,
Do you know any of the specs? I know the population would have been about
20,000 and that the downtown portion would be about 50 acres, but that's
about it. Do you know how big the entire project would be? How about the
residential areas and the green belt?
Question for everyone in the group: If Disney or some other company were to
build an updated version of Epcot, would you want to live there?
Roy Batty
"Bootstrap Bill" <wrco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Question for everyone in the group: If Disney or some other company were to
> build an updated version of Epcot, would you want to live there?
Knowing what I know now, there would be no freakin' way I would live
there.
Planned communities, by design, try to fit the person into the community
rather thn have the community fit the people. And Walt was a
micromanager. And his attitude pervades the company today.
He would have had to come up with the fiction of Cast Members for the
entire community to give the ruling power structure the legitimacy to
micromanage the daily behavior of the community at large.
Then the power structure would have to control free speech to hide any
conflicts with people's behaviors and the requirements of them being
cast members.
So there is an issue of where you actually stopped being a cast member.
Does it stop at your front door, or does it continue to into the house.
And then does it stop in the living room, or does it continue into the
bathroom and debroom.
Theoretically I can conceive of that type of social contract attempting
to go as far as it possible can. It would be about how they defined the
limits of On Stage.
Bootstrap Bill
"Roy Batty" <Ba...@TyrrellspammapsCorp.com> wrote in message
news:Batty-A242DC....@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
Is the concept salvageable? I don't see it being any different than Irvine.
If I had the money, or could convince some venture capitalists to fund it,
I'd do it with the following changes:
1. Located in Riverside County, where land is still somewhat reasonably
priced, Progress City California would sit on the 91 Freeway and Orange
County Metrolink line and offer a less than one hour ride to Disneyland and
John Wayne airport, and the numerous office complexes in Irvine.
2. Houses would be owned, not rented. Advantage - residents would have a say
in how the city was governed. Progress City would be owned by its residents,
not a corporate conglomerate. Each resident would be a shareholder and would
receive a portion of the profits..
3. The high density apartments would be replaced with condominiums, though
some condos and houses would be available to renters.
4. Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) instead of the WEDWAY People Mover. Door to
door service to any point in the city, no transfers required.
(http://www.skywebexpress and http://www.skytran.net are two examples).
5. The housing ring would be a little denser than in the original concept.
Smaller three story town houses with tiny yards, similar to newer
developments in Orange County, CA. The homes will be built right up against
the green belts. I'd like to see the population increased from the proposed
20,000 to between 50,000 and 100,000. This should be possible with the
higher density housing and taller condominiums.
6. I would start with the outer housing ring, high density condominiums and
the transportation level and build the inner city (mall + office buildings +
hotels) later. The money to build the project could come by pre-selling
homes.
Would enough people be interested and willing to invest in this venture? I
intend to find out. I registered the domain http://www.progresscity.org, and
will point it to a yahoo group as soon as it goes live.
I'm ready to go right now!
Roy Batty
"Bootstrap Bill" <wrco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Good luck.
Because I studied to be a real estate saleman (at the tender age of 21
back during the boom of the early 80's. I got my licence but never used
it.) I see a lot of issues here, but I won't be a naysayer. My only bit
of advice is do a hell of a lot of research. Then do more.
>
>
>
>
Bootstrap Bill
"Roy Batty" <Ba...@TyrrellspammapsCorp.com> wrote in message
My sisters husband is a retired contractor who was involved in building much
of the housing here in Orange County during the 70's through early 90's. I
believe he has the clout to get this project built, if only he could be
convinced that it is worthwhile.Right now, I'm trying to gather as much
information as I can.
rick++
Like combine the good parts of the 19th and 21st centuries,
avoiding the nasty parts of the 20th century.
At least one book has been written about Celebration's problems.
Roy Batty
ric...@hotmail.com (rick++) wrote:
It's hard to say. I haven't read that book. I think Celebration IS
Disney's attempt to create a planned community.
I read a few articles and a scholarly paper about it on the web. It's
not something I would to experience but evidently it's something others
DO want to experience.
I think it would have been worse under Walt. Walt Disney's gift for
Disneyland was creating reassuring realities of Pasts, Presents, and
Futures that never were. You can go to Disneyland and experience all
types of fantasy. Then you go home. That's if you work or play there.
What do you do when Home and Work is "on stage?" The whole idea makes
me feel very uncomfortable.
Note: A quick glance at the latest Celebration articles on the net
suggest that most of what I know about the place is now outdated.
Adrain Barton
wrote:
>In article <f7422d8e.04042...@posting.google.com>,
> ric...@hotmail.com (rick++) wrote:
>
>> Wasn't "Celebration" a weak atempt at the original Epcot?
>> Like combine the good parts of the 19th and 21st centuries,
>> avoiding the nasty parts of the 20th century.
>> At least one book has been written about Celebration's problems.
>
>It's hard to say. I haven't read that book. I think Celebration IS
>Disney's attempt to create a planned community.
>
>I read a few articles and a scholarly paper about it on the web. It's
>not something I would to experience but evidently it's something others
>DO want to experience.
>
>I think it would have been worse under Walt. Walt Disney's gift for
>Disneyland was creating reassuring realities of Pasts, Presents, and
>Futures that never were. You can go to Disneyland and experience all
>types of fantasy. Then you go home. That's if you work or play there.
>
>What do you do when Home and Work is "on stage?" The whole idea makes
>me feel very uncomfortable.
>
It probably would have been like Pleasantville.
rick++
>
> > Wasn't "Celebration" a weak atempt at the original Epcot?
> > Like combine the good parts of the 19th and 21st centuries,
> > avoiding the nasty parts of the 20th century.
> > At least one book has been written about Celebration's problems.
>
> It's hard to say. I haven't read that book. I think Celebration IS
> Disney's attempt to create a planned community.
>
> I read a few articles and a scholarly paper about it on the web. It's
> not something I would to experience but evidently it's something others
> DO want to experience.
Celebration's problem was that only the upper-middle class could afford to
move in. And the soccer-mom crowd is fiercely conservative and opposed the
"e" & "t" parts of EPOCT- "experimental" and "tommorrow". There was row
over experiemental education. Thw wealthy middle class wanted conventional so
their kids would get into the best colleges. Clebration wanted to reduce
car use. Try that on the "SUV set". And so on.
Bootstrap Bill
"rick++" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f7422d8e.04050...@posting.google.com...
> Celebration's problem was that only the upper-middle class could afford to
> move in. And the soccer-mom crowd is fiercely conservative and opposed
the
> "e" & "t" parts of EPOCT- "experimental" and "tommorrow". There was row
> over experiemental education. Thw wealthy middle class wanted conventional
so
> their kids would get into the best colleges. Clebration wanted to reduce
> car use. Try that on the "SUV set". And so on.
Back to the original question. What would it take to make the original EPCOT
proposal a reality TODAY? Is the idea worth pursuiting? Can it be done?
--
"It's easy enough to be pleasant, when life hums along like a song.
But the man worth while is the man who can smile when
everything goes dead wrong.".
Roy Batty
"Bootstrap Bill" <wrco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "rick++" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f7422d8e.04050...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Celebration's problem was that only the upper-middle class could afford to
> > move in. And the soccer-mom crowd is fiercely conservative and opposed
> the
> > "e" & "t" parts of EPOCT- "experimental" and "tommorrow". There was row
> > over experiemental education. Thw wealthy middle class wanted conventional
> so
> > their kids would get into the best colleges. Clebration wanted to reduce
> > car use. Try that on the "SUV set". And so on.
>
> Back to the original question. What would it take to make the original EPCOT
> proposal a reality TODAY? Is the idea worth pursuiting? Can it be done?
>
I hate to say it can't be done. But it hasn't been done and a _little_
reading on the history of such things suggest people have been trying
for at least two thousand years.
It's [the community] usually established by and for religious
organizations. My memory says usually under the guidance of a
charismatic leader. Think of people united for a common goal with a
common set of values.
On a small scale they seem to last. But they're isolated, gender
restricted, and intensely controlled. Think monastery and convent.
IMO, communities are like organic creatures. They need to adapt to the
REAL environment. If a community attempts to exist solely to the group's
ideals (theory of how Groups should exist) instead of to real group
dynamics (human nature) then the experiment will fail.
Humans can do a lot of stuff in the short run, especially if we know it
IS the short run. Disneyland Cast Members can put up with a lot of crap
knowing they can go backstage and relax at the end of their shift. Take
away the sanctuary of backstage and you've got seriously repressed cast
members and there's no way of saying how their repressed
anger/sexuality/ambition will manifest.
So, if I researching this for a science fiction novel I would look up
the successful (or at least the most successful) ideal communities. Then
I would compare that with the failed ones (Anaheim, Brasilia,
Pennsylvania, Washington D.C., Jonestown)
Bootstrap Bill
"Roy Batty" <ba...@tyrellcorp.com> wrote in message
news:batty-860F20....@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
I came up with an interesting idea for a city that could be built near the
equator. The average depth of Earth's oceans is only 2.5 miles. Imagine a
wall extending from the ocean floor to perhaps 200 feet above sea level.
This wall is made of diamond and is about three hundred feet thick and
encloses an area approximately 100 square miles in size. Once the wall is
completed, siphon out the water within it and you have an artificial
"island" ready to build your city on, except that this city will won't
require any construction at all. Fill it up with Utility Fog (see
http://discuss.foresight.org/~josh/Ufog.html). Utility Fog is programmable
matter that will give us an environment very similar to the holodeck in Star
Trek.
Built in the center of this space is a 15 mile high tower made of carbon
Nanotubes. At the top of this tower is the base of a space elevator that
links the surface of the planet to geosynchronous orbit. (see
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/2002/7/going_up/print.phtml).
The city would be connected to all points beyond with an underground train
that is capable of reaching orbital velocity (see
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,599827-2,00.html)
The view would be incredible! The city would be surrounded by 2.5 mile high
walls that are almost as transparent as glass. It would be like living in
the middle of a very large aquarium.
I'm working on a 3D model of the walls. I hope to have it finished in a few
days.
Roy Batty
"Bootstrap Bill" <wrco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The stuff I write is "20 minutes into the future." The worldbuilding creates
cultures that are still recognizable but different. The concept is to make
changes and extroprolate the widescale effects of those changes. One thing
rarely changes, people are always people.
That sounds like a Fun model. Are you aware that your island is probably more
than twice as large as LA county (which itself is larger than the Netherlands)?