FINAL WORD: "Missing" TLK Scenes
MOVIEJOHN
There seems to finally be a consensus reached that the "missing" scenes in
Disney's "The Lion King" never appeared in the film in ANY version.
However, I managed to obtain information to confirm that; namely, the
animation draft of "the Lion King" script. This document contains the
scene number, artist, footage numbers and description of action for EVERY
scene in the film that was animated.
Sequence 17.0 is called "Simba Decides to Return" and was directed by Rob
Minkoff. It begins with a medium closeup of Nala saying, "He was, but now
I can't find him. Where is he?" Rafiki enters, and the dialogue begins
about Simba's return to Pride Rock.
The scene continues (there are many details, and if you feel you
absolutely need them for confirmation, please E-mail me at
MOVI...@aol.com and I will quote them for you -- the animation draft
CANNOT leave my hands) and ends with a twoshot of Timon and Pumbaa crying
"Ohhh!" in unison.
The next sequence is No. 17.1, "Homeward Bound," and is directed by Roger
Allers. It begins with a full shot of the sun and continues as Simba runs
through the desert.
At no time do any characters discuss whether they should follow, or does
Timon say he'll stay behind. NO SUCH SCENE WAS EVER ANIMATED OR, HENCE,
EVER APPEARED IN *ANY* CUT OF THE FILM.
Hope this helps put any confusion to rest!
John
Aladdin
> NO SUCH SCENE WAS EVER ANIMATED OR, HENCE, EVER APPEARED IN *ANY* CUT
> OF THE FILM.
Ohhh, John, you were doing SO well there... until this last line. There
is little doubt that whoever posted about this 'sequence' was simply
imagining something that was never there. (Probably just recreating the
scene you mentioned in his/her head incorrectly.) However, the sequence-
by-sequence draft you have will not tell you scenes that may have been
animated but not included. Remember too that there are many 'cuts' of
the film which the public obviously does not get to see starting from
early boarding of the picture...
--Alan
MOVIEJOHN
(Aladdin) writes:
>> However, the sequence-by-sequence draft you have will not tell you
scenes >>that may have beenanimated but not included. Remember too that
there are >>many 'cuts' ofthe film which the public obviously does not get
to see starting >>from early boarding of the picture..
I'm not usually this blunt, but in this case, you're incorrect. The
animation draft is THE document to tell what sequences have been animated.
Because of the time, expense and manpower behind animation, rarely if
ever are sequences fully animated, then cut. However, there ARE sequences
that are assigned to animators, perhaps even roughed out, but not
animated. These are marked "Out of Picture" on the draft. That does NOT
mean, however, that they have been fully animated and cut. That virtually
never happens. I can only think of one instance in which it is reported
to have happened, and that involved about two seconds of animation.
(Can't say which film. Sorry.) I have confirmed this information with
Feature Animation and with The Walt Disney Archives, and can say with an
extremely high degree of certainty that your assertion that scenes may
have been animated but not included in the final film is incorrect.
Aladdin
> mean, however, that they have been fully animated and cut. That virtually
> never happens. I can only think of one instance in which it is reported
> to have happened, and that involved about two seconds of animation.
> (Can't say which film. Sorry.)
I apologize. I was mouthing off and not watching my terminology. I didn't
mean sequences, first of all, I actually meant scenes. I understand that
there is a great deal of expense in fully animating a sequence and cutting
it in animation. However, in the case of a scene, it's not so outrageous
and I've seen it happen (though perhaps not with in-betweening). Everything
is so carefully pieced together in these pictures that it's hard to discuss
cuts of scenes or any piece of animation without discrepancies. Sorry. :(
Just to clarify for anyone else reading this, a 'scene' in an animated film
would be likely referred to as a 'shot' in a live-action film. A 'sequence'
would translate as a 'scene'.
--Alan
chase ray ( ba vpaf)
|> Just to clarify for anyone else reading this, a 'scene' in an
animated film
|> would be likely referred to as a 'shot' in a live-action film.
A 'sequence'
|> would translate as a 'scene'.
|>
|> --Alan
Actually Alan I'm pretty sure film terms in animation relate to ones
in live-action......a shot begins from the moment a camera is turned
on and ends at the moment the camera turns off, ie the beginning of
Altman's "The Player". In animation a shot would be any fixed length
of time on a partcular person, place or thing. A scene is simply
just a lot of shots put together, ie edited shots. A sequence is
when lots o' scenes are edited together in a particular order to
convey a particular message, feeling etc.
J.T.Toad
Tad Stones
#1 There was nothing cut from Lion King for the rerelease. I doubt that
any new prints were struck. Maybe for the El capitan. Originally, that
scene was storyboarded to be longer. The scene had Pumbaa giving a verbose
speech about responsibility. The print released in theatres always ended
with Pumbaa and Timon saying, "Oooooh..."
#2 However, sometimes scenes are animated that are then dumped.
Everyone tries to avoid it but part of what makes Disney features great
is the willingness to take expensive but necessary measures to improve
the entertainment. 18 minutes was cut from Return of Jafar (albeit an
unusual case). Milt Kahl animated a sequence in the original Rescuers
where Penny feeds a polar bear (who was to be kidnapped by penguins).
The only scenes that survive are of Penny reaching into her pocket for
ginger snaps. Milt's scenes and the song that accompanied them are
gone. Then, of course, you can ask Ward Kimball about the soup eating
and bed building sequences from Snow White. Ron Clements animated an
entire song for the Swamp Volunteers (again, in the original Rescuers) to
the tune of Col. Bogey's March (from Bridge on the River Kwai) that was
sung by Phil Harris.
So it happens. In any case, these scenes are indeed listed in the draft
and marked OUT OF PICTURE. (Except when the entire story changes as in
the case of The Rescuers...penguins indeed!).
--
"I'm usually much smarter than this. Really." Tad Stones at
duc...@netcom.com and tad_s...@studio.disney.com
Larry Smith
MOVIEJOHN <movi...@aol.com> wrote:
>mean, however, that they have been fully animated and cut. That virtually
>never happens. I can only think of one instance in which it is reported
>to have happened, and that involved about two seconds of animation.
>(Can't say which film. Sorry.) I have confirmed this information with
I believe the film to which you refer is "Fantasia" in which two seconds
of black centaur "pickaninnies" were bridged with a sustained still of the
previous shot. But there is at least one other instance I know of where
substantial cuts were made to a finished animated feature: "The Black Caul-
dron", and the figure may be quite a bit higher than that. It was near
completion when the new Disney management took a knife to it and added a
number of new sequences, along with some shuffling of existing scenes.
Of course, it had not been released at that point.
Therefore, you are substantially correct as to the important of the draft
and that fact that there is _never_ anything left "on the cutting room
floor" in animation - let alone, cut on re-release - except where PC is
concerned. I recall The Lion King vividly, and I've not seen it since
the first release, and I recall no such described scene. It would not
surprise me if the original poster dreamed it or otherwise made it up
and inserted it into his "real" memory of the picture. Like the famous
"Play it again, Sam" scene that never happened.
--
Larry Smith - My opinions only. lar...@zk3.dec.com/thes...@mv.mv.com/lar...@io.com
-
Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument
of the tyrant and the creed of the slave. -- William Pitt, 1763
Russell Lee
> #2 However, sometimes scenes are animated that are then dumped.
Wow. Very interesting trivia. Is there a book out or something
that lists some of this kind of stuff?
MOVIEJOHN
Thorough checking with The Walt Disney Archives confirms that they have no
record of, nor can they recall, any full animation being cut from a film
after it (the animation) was complete, with one exception: 10 seconds was
cut from Snow White, with the queen/witch at the cauldron. It was
considered too scary. "Black Cauldron" was indeed recut, but it was not
at the expense of animation and no scenes were "reshot." As the Archives
reminded me, there are no "reshoots" in animation. That is why Disney has
always gone to such great lengths to storyboard thoroughly before moving
even to rough animation. However, in rough stages, scenes are often
"shot" and scrapped ... take for instance the original "Be Our Guest"
sequence from BATB. But the expense and time is SO great in animation,
which is why storyboards and rough animation are used so heavily. The
case of "Fantasia" doesn't really apply, since it was done long, long,
long after the film's initial release and was done for an entirely
different reason. But, as I said, there is absolutely no record of any
scene being animated then scrapped, at least as far as The Walt Disney
Archives (generally the accepted source of "final words" throughout the
company) is concerned.