Orlando Sentinel - "Fans say flaws make Kingdom less magical"
Fudgie
By Richard Verrier
of the Sentinel Staff
Published in The Orlando Sentinel on October 14, 2000
As John Hornbuckle strolled down Main Street at Walt Disney World, he saw
something unexpected: more than two dozen burned-out lights at the train
station and atop several stores.
For Hornbuckle, who grew up near the Magic Kingdom, such a sight was
inconceivable -- and embarrassing. He had just finished explaining to his
wife, Linda, how company founder Walt Disney had been so adamant about
keeping his California park in tip-top shape that he even insisted on daily
checks for burned-out bulbs.
"Those little bulbs help make the park look magical, but just a few of them
being out makes it look sad and cheap," lamented Hornbuckle, 27, a network
manager who lives in Perry. "This was not the Walt Disney World I remember."
Lights out. A recent photo shows burned-out bulbs at City Hall at Walt
Disney World. The company`s founder, Walt Disney, insisted on daily checks
for missing bulbs at his California park. It`s that attention to detail
that`s missing now, critics say. (Shoun A. Hill/Orlando Sentinel)
So say many other diehard Disney fans, annual pass holders who expect the
company to meet the highest standards. They contend the Magic Kingdom and
other Disney World parks risk losing some of their charm because their
caretakers aren`t taking care of the details.
They cite a litany of blemishes -- from the burned-out light bulbs to
chipped paint on rides and torn seats on the Monorail; it is evidence, they
say, that Disney`s legendary commitment to aesthetics is slipping.
Disney`s theme parks are still among the cleanest and best maintained in the
world. And many tourists probably don`t notice the blemishes.
There`s no indication that the disrepair has hurt business at Disney World,
which has helped the parent company rebound from a two-year financial slump.
But attention to such nit-picky details has always been a hallmark of
Disney, separating it from lesser competitors. And while the faults aren`t
serious, they could eventually hurt the bottom line if enough guests -- and
investors -- start to question Disney`s commitment to sustaining high
standards, observers say.
"The little things add up," said Arlen Miller, who trades Disney
collectibles online. "If you ignore something long enough, the molehill
becomes a mountain."
Customers, employees and union officials say the disrepair reflects a
shortage of custodial staff in a tight labor market and equally tight
company budgeting.
That`s not so, say Disney officials.
"The Disney legacy is in great hands," said Disney World Vice President Jeff
Vahle, who heads a team of 4,000 maintenance workers. "We are definitely
focused on making sure the property is improved every day, and that the
parks look as good today as they did five years ago."
Obsessed with the details
Keeping up appearances has always been paramount for Disney, echoing the
values of the company`s founder.
Walt Disney often would walk through Disneyland, checking for anything
amiss, from light bulbs out to chipped horse-head hitching posts and dead
flowers. Disdainful of dirty-looking carnivals, he even objected to selling
gum, snow cones, candy apples and cotton candy at his park.
"The whole corporate culture was based on developing and paying attention to
the small things, the attention to detail and the guest experience," said
Steve Baker, an Orlando theme park consultant and former Disney World
executive. "Walt was obsessed with the details."
And generations of Disney workers have learned in "Traditions" training that
everyone from the sweeper to the CEO must pick up trash.
"The whole aesthetic, the look of cleanliness and upkeep is unbelievably
important for a company like Disney," said Warren Bennis, a business
professor at the University of Southern California. "The whole Disney model
is based on image."
But Disney`s image is taking a few knocks from some of its most diehard
supporters, such as Hornbuckle. He developed a Web site -- Walt Disney World
Blues -- to highlight various imperfections in the theme parks. The site was
inspired by a similar one for Disneyland.
"I get a lot of people who write to me when they come across this Web site,"
Hornbuckle said.
He and other Disney visitors cite trash in queue lines; overflowing garbage
cans; stained buildings at Epcot; duct tape that, until recently, was used
between some seats at Star Tours at Disney-MGM Studios; and torn Monorail
seats and carpeting.
Disney World`s street sweepers are still in evidence, but not in the numbers
of four or five years ago, said Miller, the Disney collector. "When you see
popcorn spilled on the ground, and you come back several hours later and
it`s still there, that says something," he said.
Tampa systems analyst Jeff Carter said he was aghast during a recent visit
to the Magic Kingdom to see workers painting support beams for the
Tomorrowland Transit Authority in full view of park guests. "Up until three
or four years ago, all the painting would be done at night," said Carter,
25.
Some imperfections fixed
Disney World, because of record-low unemployment in Central Florida, has not
been able to attract enough custodial workers to keep the parks clean, said
Mike Duffy, president of the Service Employees International Union Local
362.
"People are working giant amounts of overtime just to keep up. They are
woefully understaffed," Duffy said. "Our folks take great pride in their
work, and they just can`t keep the place looking the way they want to
because there aren`t enough people to do the work."
One Disney employee, who asked not to be identified, said workers are
embarrassed about the condition of "friendship" boats at Epcot. "They cut
the money to wash the boats," the worker said. "They`re dirty; the windows
are smudged."
Many Disney observers say such problems began to surface in the mid-1990s,
after the death of Walt Disney Co. President Frank Wells, a strong advocate
for the theme parks and a much-respected mentor to CEO Michael Eisner.
The focus on the bottom line, critics say, accelerated after Paul Pressler
took over the attractions division in late 1998. Although respected on Wall
Street, Pressler developed a reputation as a cost-cutter during his
four-year tenure as president of Disneyland in California.
"He`s more concerned about cost issues than he is about the appearance of
the parks," said Al Lutz, co-founder of MousePlanet, a California company
that helps families plan theme-park vacations.
Pressure to cut costs in the theme parks mounted last year after Disney`s
profit slumped 30 percent because of weak sales of videos and merchandise
and struggles at its ABC-TV network. Eisner targeted $500 million in annual
savings by 2001.
But Disney officials say any belt-tightening has not hurt park upkeep. And
they say there is no dire shortage of custodial workers.
"The information we`re getting from our guests is that we`ve never done a
better job," Vahle said. "We do over a million and a half work orders on
this property a year. Unfortunately, you`ll find some of that [chipped
paint], but you correct it as quickly as possible."
Vahle did acknowledge some problems.
"That`s not something we should be doing," he said of laborers painting in
sight of guests at Tomorrowland. He also said the aging lighting system on
Main Street is being replaced by a system that will be easier to maintain.
And he admitted that duct tape was used on some seats at Star Tours to cover
sharp edges from cracked plastic. But that, he said, was an interim safety
measure until the ride could be refurbished.
Disney has fixed many problems identified by Hornbuckle and others. Several
buildings on Main Street have been refurbished, as have some attractions,
including It`s a Small World, which had chipped paint on its exterior.
But imperfections remain. Some examples at the Magic Kingdom as recently as
last week included chipped paint at Cinderella`s Golden Carousel and several
burned-out lights above City Hall.
"It lends itself to that `wedon`t care as much` attitude," park visitor
Carter said. "You`ve got people who`ve spent thousands of dollars on their
vacations. They`re coming to a place that they picture as absolutely
perfect."
Posted Oct 13 2000 10:10PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
TP2...@webtv.net
a.d.d.'ers knew what we were talking about back in the 1990's when we
would groan and complain about Paul Pressler. Many r.a.d.p.'ers thought
we were nuts, but we knew what we were talking about. Trust us.
Now Walt Disney World is getting bad press for a lack of upkeep in the
Parks. Pressler has only been in charge of WDW for about 2 years. If the
changes follow the same pattern as they did when he was in charge of
just Disneyland, things will start to get extremely bad during 2001.
HootDad
"Fudgie" <fud...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
Which is the bigger problem here - lack of maintenance or the
proliferation of APs allowing people to go to the parks week-in and
week-out (or maybe day-in and day-out), ant, therefore, becoming more
sensitive to minor flaws?
--
John Thompson AKA HootDad
Take a 360 panorama virtual tour of Disney Vero Beach and Disneyland
http://www.virtualescape.com/
Thompson family Web: http://www.thompsonfamilyweb.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
one another...
Fudgie wrote in message ...
<snip>
:Customers, employees and union officials say the disrepair reflects a
:shortage of custodial staff in a tight labor market and equally tight
:company budgeting.
<snip>
:Disney World, because of record-low unemployment in Central Florida,
has not
:been able to attract enough custodial workers to keep the parks clean,
said
:Mike Duffy, president of the Service Employees International Union
Local
:362.
:
:"People are working giant amounts of overtime just to keep up. They are
:woefully understaffed," Duffy said. "Our folks take great pride in
their
:work, and they just can`t keep the place looking the way they want to
:because there aren`t enough people to do the work."
<snip>
:
:That`s not so, say Disney officials.
:
:"The Disney legacy is in great hands," said Disney World Vice President
Jeff
:Vahle, who heads a team of 4,000 maintenance workers. "We are
definitely
:focused on making sure the property is improved every day, and that the
:parks look as good today as they did five years ago."
Vahle's comments make no sense to me. He's refuting the claims in the
first paragraph, yet offers no explanation for the current state of
things. :-/
This reminds me of that old episode of Gilligan's Island, where he
dreams that he's "El Presidente" of some worn-torn little country. Every
time someone tells him to take a look outside the window at the state of
things, his advisor keeps repeating the same line: "Nonsense! The
country is in great shape!"
And then we get...
:But Disney officials say any belt-tightening has not hurt park upkeep.
And
:they say there is no dire shortage of custodial workers.
<snip>
:Vahle did acknowledge some problems.
:
:"That`s not something we should be doing," he said of laborers painting
in
:sight of guests at Tomorrowland. He also said the aging lighting system
on
:Main Street is being replaced by a system that will be easier to
maintain.
:
:And he admitted that duct tape was used on some seats at Star Tours to
cover
:sharp edges from cracked plastic. But that, he said, was an interim
safety
:measure until the ride could be refurbished.
<snip>
:Pressure to cut costs in the theme parks mounted last year after
Disney`s
:profit slumped 30 percent because of weak sales of videos and
merchandise
:and struggles at its ABC-TV network. Eisner targeted $500 million in
annual
:savings by 2001.
Personally, I've never understood why the Company doesn't jettison units
that aren't profitable. Why keep holdings that do nothing but diminish
the stars of the organization by forcing the bottom-liners to cut costs
in those lucrative areas so they can keep the useless units afloat?
Rşoşb
TDC Apprentice to Sorcerer Mickey & When-You-Wish-Upon-A-Star Future
Imagineer
Bring back Light Magic!
Our Home on The Hill:
http://www.freespeech.org/chickapin
The WDWguide
In article <sufuh6b...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Fudgie" <fud...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
--
Please visit
The Unofficial Online Guide to Walt Disney World Preview Pages!
wdwbook.cjb.net or
http://members.tripod.com/~WDW-Guide
Now again frequently updated!
WDW:
Jan 99: Days Inn Maingate West
Oct 99: Fort Wilderness Campground
July 00: All Star Music
September 00: Grosvenor Resort
October 00 (I): Econo Lodge, Sheraton Four Points
October 00 (II): Sheraton Safari
plus too many day trips to count...
DL:
June 97: Sister in Law
April 00: Sister in Law
DLP:
May 00: Sequoia Lodge
ParrotHead
> Vahle's comments make no sense to me. He's refuting the claims in the
> first paragraph, yet offers no explanation for the current state of
> things. :-/
That's exactly what I thought when I read them. Except that in
Vahle's eyes, "the current state of things" is just A-OK. If you deny
that quality standards have declined, you don't have to offer a reason
for that decline.
___________
ParrotHead
http://www.wdwblues.com
Carol Kennedy
> that aren't profitable. Why keep holdings that do nothing but diminish
> the stars of the organization by forcing the bottom-liners to cut costs
> in those lucrative areas so they can keep the useless units afloat?
>
Could it be in part because in the circles in which the top honchos travel,
there's more prestige in running a TV network than in running theme parks?
Or am I once again being a cynical old broad (an title I wear with pride!)?
--
Carol Kennedy, TDC Pollo Grande, Speaker of Inadequate Spanish, and
Translator without Portfolio
Petey Gold
after the death of Walt Disney Co. President Frank Wells, a strong advocate
for the theme parks and a much-respected mentor to CEO Michael Eisner.<<
Frank Wells was both the brains and the counterpoint to Eisner's massive
ego.....
I don't blame Pressler as much as I blame Eisner for the direction of the theme
parks.
It's the journey, not the destination.
HootDad
"The Sorcerer's Apprentice" <Fant...@cfl.rr.comREMOVE> wrote:
> Personally, I've never understood why the Company doesn't jettison
units
> that aren't profitable. Why keep holdings that do nothing but diminish
> the stars of the organization by forcing the bottom-liners to cut
costs
> in those lucrative areas so they can keep the useless units afloat?
>
I know that this isn't exactly what you mean, but one of the biggest
problems in my mind with both DL and WDW is the attitude of the exact
opposite - looking at every aspect as a revenue producer. The classic
example at DL was the Davey Crokett (sp?) canoes. The are high cost
relative to the number of guests that actually use them, so they were
used less and less, then, for a while, dropped. The new DL President
Cynthia Harriss (sp again?) brought them back because she realized that
they added a lot to the overall ambience (or "show" - to use Disney's
term) of the park.
> Rşoşb
> TDC Apprentice to Sorcerer Mickey & When-You-Wish-Upon-A-Star Future
> Imagineer
>
> Bring back Light Magic!
>
> Our Home on The Hill:
> http://www.freespeech.org/chickapin
>
>
--
John Thompson AKA HootDad
Take a 360 panorama virtual tour of Disney Vero Beach and Disneyland
http://www.virtualescape.com/
Thompson family Web: http://www.thompsonfamilyweb.com
Derek Janssen
>
> "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" <Fant...@cfl.rr.comREMOVE> wrote:
>
> > first paragraph, yet offers no explanation for the current state of
> > things. :-/
>
> That's exactly what I thought when I read them. Except that in
> Vahle's eyes, "the current state of things" is just A-OK. If you deny
> that quality standards have declined, you don't have to offer a reason
> for that decline.
Particularly the following paragraph:
---
Vahle did acknowledge some problems.
"That`s not something we should be doing," he said of laborers painting in
sight of guests at Tomorrowland.
---
...Even the most inexperienced can recognize that as fluent Corporate
(and Disney dialect in particular) for, "Oh, you're one of *those*
reporters...Here--If we pretend to agree with you, will you go away?"
Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com
Allard
mentions. Some of the neon lights in MGM were burnt out, the monorails air
conditioning systems were not working, and lights were out on Main Street.
One thing that I was happy to see was some spilled popcorn was cleaned up
within 10 minutes by a park custodian, but the park upkeep is nothing like
it was five years ago.
Carol Kennedy wrote in message ...
>> Personally, I've never understood why the Company doesn't jettison units
>> that aren't profitable. Why keep holdings that do nothing but diminish
>> the stars of the organization by forcing the bottom-liners to cut costs
>> in those lucrative areas so they can keep the useless units afloat?
>>
>
Chris Conn
> >>Many Disney observers say such problems began to surface in the mid-1990s,
> after the death of Walt Disney Co. President Frank Wells, a strong advocate
> for the theme parks and a much-respected mentor to CEO Michael Eisner.<<
I missed the original article, can somebody send me the URL
for it? Thanks,
--
Christopher Mark Conn (last WDW '98 last DL '99)
cmc...@hotmail.com
Austin, Texas
Jason
been there, done that already.
Jay
<TP2...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17904-39...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Paul T.
>
> "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" <Fant...@cfl.rr.comREMOVE> wrote:
>
>> Vahle's comments make no sense to me. He's refuting the claims in the
>> first paragraph, yet offers no explanation for the current state of
>> things. :-/
>
> That's exactly what I thought when I read them. Except that in
>Vahle's eyes, "the current state of things" is just A-OK. If you deny
>that quality standards have declined, you don't have to offer a reason
>for that decline.
>
>
>ParrotHead
Paul T. responds: Rock smashes scissors, scissors cut paper, and the media
covers dirt. (Paul T. quote, you may use w/credit to Paul T.)
I think a phenomenon exists whereby a set of conditions may be evidenced to a
certain degree and that however minute existence is spark for flame. Flame by
the media and individuals. What I'm saying is that there's "something there"
insofar as changing conditions at the parks but that the fact that it gets noted
by media is not a measure of degree of those changes.
To a conisseur, a 2% change is monumental. To the average guest, it's not
important. So what would be important as defined by...park fans at large? Oh
sheez, I don't know...15% and above maybe?
Walt didn't have probably 1/100th the number of lightbulbs to worry about that
they do now. Sheer physics dictates that they will burn out and given the number
of them, also dictate the down time for a light fixture due for a bulb changing.
Personally I'm willing to see a certain percentage of bulbs burnt out and not
because I'm "new generation" fan. If I were in a small park I would fully expect
to see things much spicer and spanner and fewer bulbs burnt out than if in a
park the size of Dallas or thereabouts.
Also, MK is aging. And with age comes faster rate of deterioration as well as
compilation of repairs. You can only put so many coats of paint on something
before it looks just plain old. And chipped.
The same degree of custodial care and maintenance will not maintain the same
degree of appearance upkeep, long term. Walt's level of care, given maintenance
worker and custodial worker per square foot, could be no higher than WDW's ratio
is now. In other words you may be able to take Walt from his grave, and say "Ok
Walt, use the same number of workers per square foot at all of WDW that you used
at DL, and let's see if you can keep up with all the maintenance and repairs to
the same level as you were able to at DL in the fifities. He probably just could
not do it. I say this not so much out of lay opinion, but out of being a
facility professional for 25 years. Age creates increased maintenance. The same
amount of investment will not maintain the same amount of appearance over time.
So Walt's investment into looks likely would also be somewhat inadequate today
at the now aged MK.
And I don't think that at your newer attractions and parks like AK, you see the
same level of disrepair. Again, because the park is new. So if you want to
compare park for park, Walt for Eisner, then just compare a comparable portion
and park. Fans can't have it all ways. Massive park opportunities, and
quaintness. Quaintness would facilitate the illusion that bulbs never dim.
Massive, sprawling, 7 times the size of DL park areas known as Walt Disney World
inhibits some illusion and it need not necessarily be a reflection on mindset or
effort of the company.
But it's good to have watchdog groups. Although media feeding by maintaining an
agenda, those groups are probably the worst guage of true balance that exists at
parks, whatever that balance happens to be at any particular time. And worse
than that is the occasional media blurb giving account of those watchdog fans.
My opinion is that there's never been a more impressive, nearly
wonder-of-the-world destination in the history of mankind than WDW, nor of
overall quality experience. Yes, even slight lapses in attention should be noted
and worked on though. Paul T.
Caren
Fudgie wrote:
(Snip tale of low maintenance.)
I paid special attention to maintenance when I was at WDW in August and really
didn't think it was bad--although I wasn't in the Magic Kingdom at night to
examine the light bulbs.
When the Magic Kingdom opened there were two men painting back in the corner
near the Crystal Palace by the restrooms and first-aid area. They were both
wearing a rather traditional "painting" outfit of white overalls, white cap,
etc. I thought they were rather interesting to watch and that they rather added
to the early-morning Main Street ambiance.
What bothers me a lot more is the general decline in the level of detail and
service.--the attitude of let's reduce the show so we don't have to do so much.
I miss the magic store, the antique store, and the silversmith in the Magic
Kingdom. They added so much to the ambiance and have been replaced by more
generic Disney stores. Ack--the same crap is for sale all over WDW. It used to
be FUN to shop at WDW.
Also, I've noticed that over the years, I now seem to have to walk farther and
wait longer to get a meal. The trend seems to be toward meals with a "show"
(character meals) or fast food, with a declining range of choices in between.
And the fast food, in the Magic Kingdom at least, often has very limited hours
so you have to walk to the next land just to get a Coke. Hey, I'm getting old
and cranky--I don't LIKE having to make a major project out of getting a drink.
I really resent the closing of Bonfamille's at Port Orleans. Now you have a
choice of a fast-food meal on a paper plate or walking half a mile to Dixie
Landings to the slowest full-service restaurant on the planet.
I also resent that horrid graveyard thing at the entrance to Epcot. It's nothing
but a money-making scheme and it absolutely ruins the ambiance.
Also, I've noticed that much of the landscaping has been changed to become lower
maintenance. For instance, larger beds of annuals used to be installed by
planting flowers in their prime. As soon as they faded or got leggy, they were
immediately replanted with a new batch of flowers in full bloom. Now, the plants
going in are frequently immature--barely in bud--and are left in until they
verge on the disreputable. Also, leafy plants such as caladiums are now
frequently being used where there used to be flowers.
These are all things that have bothered me a lot more than the state of the
paint job on Main Street.
Okay, done griping now.
--
Caren
TDC Queen of Adventureland
Derek Janssen
>
> (Snip tale of low maintenance.)
>
> near the Crystal Palace by the restrooms and first-aid area. They were both
> wearing a rather traditional "painting" outfit of white overalls, white cap,
> etc. I thought they were rather interesting to watch and that they rather added
> to the early-morning Main Street ambiance.
...Now THERE'S an idea (seriously)!:
Imagineer theme costumes for MK maintenance people, and make any needed
day-to-day maintenance (eg. lightbulbs, painting) "part of the show"--
Not just Main Street painters and sweepers, but Mission-control
technicians for Tomorrowland, Cavalry for Frontierland, etc...
Gives more CM incentive for custodians to be seen doing their job in
public, gives more attraction-draw incentive for the corporate suits to
keep the "show" going, adds a little more street ambience (especially on
Hollywood & Sunset in DMGM), and lets customers know Disney's getting
some of those darn jobs done--
Kids of the right age would even insist on stopping to watch! : )
Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com
WedWay
WDW found me "looking" for flaws, garbage, chips, etc.,,,,, and I didn't
find many. In fact, I expected to be disappointed after reading this
newsgroup (I make about 1-2 trips a year). Things were pretty darn clean,
in good shape and impressive, a few weeks ago, I must say. The bulbs on
Main Street the week of Oct. 2nd were nearly 100% lit-no, I'm not sure if
one night I found any burned out.
The carpeting in the Monorails seems to be fraying....it doesn't have the
tight weave that is needed. We've built computer furniture with carpeting
that is designed to not fray, even after making a knife cut. That carpeting
must be mended or replaced. It does seem to be handling the foot traffic
though.
CM's Comment: 5-star. Without a doubt, this trip provided us with the most
delightful CM's of any trip. Restaurant staff, maintenance, resorts....they
all smiled, helped us and answered questions. Can't say enough of them.
Excellent!! Bravo.
One comment: I've found that when it comes to garbage, perhaps more people
are littering than were 30 years ago....not sure, as I had to struggle to
find trash on the ground. One exception: before the afternoon parade in
Frontierland, tourists left trays of food all over...on the ground, on
tables., etc. THAT was embarrassing. What ever happened to putting them in
trash cans? A little self-policing could do a lot on "our part."
Wedway
MercuryWaxing
>Main Street is being replaced by a system that will be easier to maintain.
Anybody know much about this? Maybe it's what happened to Horizons and Journey
- "We are gonna replace it, so who cares what happens to it till then."
I have to admit that when I looked at the lights in the daytime I was surprised
that the lighting system was so old. Maybe a new one would be esaiser on the
upkeep.
Mercury
Fudgie
> noticed it. My half sister didn't even grow up in CA or FL and she
> noticed it on her second visit in 1997. It's not just the day-in
> day-out visitors anymore.
My Mom visited last weekend, and she's not a Disney enthusiast. She was
pointing stuff out to me!
--
Fudgie ºoº
TDC Lord BrerBeaver
Trimobian Webmaster Royal and Keeper of All Things Brer
fud...@mail.com
http://surf.to/fudgie
http://welcome.to/trimobia
"If e can ream t, w ca do it."
Horizons - January 2000
" ca ea t ca "
Horizons - March 2000
Fudgie
> first paragraph, yet offers no explanation for the current state of
> things. :-/
Those are exactly my first impressions of the official take on things
presented in the article. They all contradict themselves!
Fudgie
> for it? Thanks,
http://orlandosentinel.com/automagic/news/2000-10-14/ASECtrash14101400.html
Fudgie
lower
> maintenance.
I've noticed this too - but I thought it was just me! The flowering annuals
have been replaced with flowering, leafy (shrubs?) in many places. The Epcot
entrance plaza is one good example. I'll have to look into this.
Fudgie
> tight weave that is needed. We've built computer furniture with carpeting
> that is designed to not fray, even after making a knife cut. That
carpeting
> must be mended or replaced. It does seem to be handling the foot traffic
> though.
Last I heard, two monorails have received new carpet. One's Monorail Blue,
and the other is either pink or coral.
Here's a pic of the new carpet...
http://www.loranges.com/disney/new_carpet_monorail_blue.jpg
Paul T.
>
>> Vahle's comments make no sense to me. He's refuting the claims in the
>> first paragraph, yet offers no explanation for the current state of
>> things. :-/
>
>Those are exactly my first impressions of the official take on things
>presented in the article. They all contradict themselves!
>--
>Fudgie
Paul T. responds: Maybe I can help. The article doesn't really contradict
itself, nor do the people in it. Firstly, the author, Verrier, is writing from a
decidedly pro-Disney point of view. Contentions that quality is not up to normal
par are conveyed by him as belonging to critics, not himself. His conveyance of
that confuses the reader into thinking that he's trying to instill a feeling of
slackened standards. He's not. He's trying to convey that critics and some fans
have a feeling of slackened standards. His separation of the two, the critics
verses his own feelings, are kind of blurred so I'll give you that. But many
poeple, and we've seen it here in this newsgroup (and with my posts) so many
times when they associate whatever is being written about, as being the very
essence of the person bringing that news or suggested alternate perspective.
The author does acknowledge that the actual seeing of the conditions explained
by critics, are not imagined. But Verrier suggests that those conditions may not
be quite as representative of overall quality to the extent that the critics
contend.
As for Vahl, he admits that states of disrepair do of course present themselves
but that they are addressed as quickly as possible, and as well as ever before.
You'll always have the torn seats, some workers not following procedure once in
awhile, and burnt bulbs. Always. The trick is to fix those things before too
many of them pile up but it's okay to always have some of them "on deck" waiting
to be fixed for a short time.
In Walt's day, we didn't have the internet and groups scouring the parks to go
put posts, articles, pictures and web pages up when as soon as some light bulb
burnt out.
Also what we likely didn't have during walt's day, is tens of millions MORE
guests at a location.
And I also think critics are going to see a lot of things that aren't there, or
have always been there but now claim they've made a major revalation by
discovering something "themselves."
And being a person who has worked on fixing things all my life I can say that
prioritization is of major importance. One day, maybe even for six months,
everything goes along fine. Things break, we fix them. Then one day, all heck
breaks loose!
All of a sudden one day it seems that people from every department are making
special requests for cabinets to be built, furniture cells to be rearranged and
paper shredders to be unjammed. Seems like they flood in all at once. Usually
this happens at the exact same time that you have a rash of malfunctions in the
"production" or "stage" areas, compounding the now excited state of needed
maintenance. Then, usually some other factors time themselves during these
times, such as a dramatic increase in say...customer orders if you're in
manufacturing, patients if your in a hospital, or guests if your at WDW.
So now you have a busy season or week, and things are really being taxed. From
turnstyles, to chairs, to toilets...everything is "over" used.
So we have increased internal demands that time themselves uncannily with
increased breakdowns, that are often complicated by increased customer flow.
What most non-maintenance people don't always understand is that this week, may
have 100% more work that needs to be done than last week. And of course if you
have some crackpot (just kidding, kind of) walking around with a camera just
trying to catch the company off guard...he's going to get a few good shots for
his dirt-page on the company.
I'm done for now. Buh bye. Paul T.
Paul T.
>Imagineer theme costumes for MK maintenance people, and make any needed
>day-to-day maintenance (eg. lightbulbs, painting) "part of the show"--
>Not just Main Street painters and sweepers, but Mission-control
>technicians for Tomorrowland, Cavalry for Frontierland, etc...
>
>Gives more CM incentive for custodians to be seen doing their job in
>public, gives more attraction-draw incentive for the corporate suits to
>keep the "show" going, adds a little more street ambience (especially on
>Hollywood & Sunset in DMGM), and lets customers know Disney's getting
>some of those darn jobs done--
>Kids of the right age would even insist on stopping to watch! : )
>
>Derek Janssen
>
like a Keystone Cops show. A crew of guys come out, one with a long ladder on
his shoulder. He spins around and the other guys just happen to duck as the
latter swooshes over their head. One guy gets on the ladder and holds the
lightbulb into the socket, and the other 5 guys grab the ladder and spin it
around.
I like my idea too. A "Be A Disney World Maintenance Worker" attraction. You
sign up for it, kind of like the Richard Petty Driving Experience. Maybe they
could call this the Tim Allen Repairman Experience or something. You go through
a few hours of training on how to change bulbs and wash windows, then you get to
go do that somewhere in the parks! Seriously though, maybe it would be a chance
for the critics to put their love where their words are. Paul T.
Paul T.
>
>> Agreed. There seems to be a major push to make every square inch of
>the parks (DL and WDW alike) profitable. Why? Can't you, every once in
>a while, have something that costs money but contributes so greatly to
>the overall Show and atmosphere that it's worth keeping around?
>
>___________
>ParrotHead
Paul T. responds: ParrotHead with all due respect I just don't think you have
any idea just how much Disney does do that costs extra money that greatly
contributes to the overall show. Go to Cedar Point once, okay? It's clean, but
of course used and has some hot dog wrappers floating around but is still
considered one of the most well upkept, clean and high quality parks in America.
It's about the same as WDW in my opinion, cleanliness wise. But I can tell you
right now that for each attraction that Cedar Point has, Disney has a comparable
one that they have spent millions, sometimes tens of millions, and even
approaching a hudred million more on, just for show and atmosphere. How you can
sit there and not even understand that all of Disney's themeing IS show and
atmosphere is beyond me. Animal Kingdom...they went to extraordinary
lengths...undrecedented in mankind's history, to envelope you with atmosphere.
They practically imported every square foot of Asia and Africa FROM those
locations for those parks. EVERY square foot was themed for element and show.
I'm not even going to keep writing in this post because it probably wont'
convince you of a single thing. You have your eye pressed so close to the Disney
microscope that all you see is the rough terrain of a surface magnified, and
don't even recognize how tremendously extravagant most of their atmosphere is.
Unique, really. From quarry and ceramic tile where vinyl could be used, to oak
and maple casework where steel could used. To $75 million extra to theme what
would otherwise be a simple "drop" ride (Tower of Terror), it is totally evident
that Disney spends many, many times the amount they would have to, if just
putting in rides to bring thrill seekers in. But then, ahhhhhh, wait a minute
here...it's apparantly NOT totally evident to you. Disney has so concealed it's
"efforts" at show, and you are looking with such a high powered scope for it,
that you don't even see it. I feel you have suffered a psychological death of
Disney in your mind, and it is manifesting itself on this group, in your
website, and also with reporters who know a good Disney bashing always gets a
reaction or two. Paul T.
Larry Cram
>
> Could it be in part because in the circles in which the top honchos
travel,
> there's more prestige in running a TV network than in running theme parks?
Michael Eisner is taking a long view toward competition and profitability.
There is much written nowadays about "filling the pipe" referring to the
eventual dominance of companies that own and produce content. Soon,
companies like Dell and Qwest and Cisco will be passed by AOL/TimeWarner,
Disney/ABC, and other "content" owners. While this may not be paying off in
the short term, its a good long term strategy that takes note of current
trends.
Let's hope that an eventual rise in profitability at Disney will allow money
to be spent to keep the parks at the high standards that they used to
maintain.
Randal Sheppard
Whenever anyone says that the opinions of Disney park fans are irrelevant on the
issue of upkeep I always think of the press Al Lutz has got in LA as an example
of how Disney's cut backs can come around to bite them.
Glad to see the WDW Blues site is getting publicity, and hopefully a few other
articles will begin to pop up which might make Disney think twice about their
efforts to squeeze as much money as possible from the parks. All it takes is a
few articles like this to build up a perception in the public's mind that Disney
is cutting corners and not what it used to be, so I think Disney had better take
notice!
All the best,
Randal Sheppard
--
=================================================
RANDAL SHEPPARD
Melbourne, Australia
webm...@sir-cliff.com
THE SIR CLIFF RICHARD HOME PAGE
http://www.sir-cliff.com
=================================================
GREAT MOMENTS WITH MR DISNEY
"All you've got to do is own up to your ignorance
honestly, and you'll find people who are willing
to fill your head with information"
-Walt Disney
=================================================
ParrotHead
>one of the biggest
> problems in my mind with both DL and WDW is the attitude of the exact
> opposite - looking at every aspect as a revenue producer.
Agreed. There seems to be a major push to make every square inch of
the parks (DL and WDW alike) profitable. Why? Can't you, every once in
a while, have something that costs money but contributes so greatly to
the overall Show and atmosphere that it's worth keeping around?
___________
ParrotHead
http://www.wdwblues.com
ParrotHead
> I paid special attention to maintenance when I was at WDW in August
>and really didn't think it was bad
<SNIP>
> What bothers me a lot more is the general decline in the level of
>detail and service.--the attitude of let's reduce the show so we don't
>have to do so much.
As you can see, the budget-cutting manifests itself in a variety of
different ways. Some things irritate me that you haven't even noticed.
Some things bother you that don't bother me. But in the end, Disney
still has two concerned customers who feel that quality has declined.
ParrotHead
> We may criticize and certainly there are problems but my October
>visit to WDW found me "looking" for flaws, garbage, chips, etc.,,,,,
>and I didn't find many.
It's amazing how differently we all can look at the same thing!
Numerous people have taken your stance, saying they notice no (or few)
maintenance problems. Numerous others have taken my stance, saying that
things have clearly declined. Sometimes I wonder if we're all visiting
the same World!
;-)
ParrotHead
>>He also said the aging lighting system on
>>Main Street is being replaced by a system that will be easier to
>>maintain.
>
> Anybody know much about this?
What I had heard was that the *street lights* on Main Street were
being redesigned and replaced due to their age and the difficulty in
getting parts for them. I asked Richard (the reporter) if this might
have been what Vahle was talking about. Richard seemed convinced that
this wasn't it, though, and that Vahle was actually talking about the
decorative lightbulbs. I think Richard may be mistaken, but maybe not...
The WDWguide
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TDLprvw.html
In article <sui1duj...@corp.supernews.com>,
--
Please visit
The Unofficial Online Guide to Walt Disney World Preview Pages!
wdwbook.cjb.net or
http://members.tripod.com/~WDW-Guide
Now again frequently updated!
WDW:
Jan 99: Days Inn Maingate West
Oct 99: Fort Wilderness Campground
July 00: All Star Music
September 00: Grosvenor Resort
October 00 (I): Econo Lodge, Sheraton Four Points
October 00 (II): Sheraton Safari
plus too many day trips to count...
DL:
June 97: Sister in Law
April 00: Sister in Law
DLP:
May 00: Sequoia Lodge
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
:> Personally, I've never understood why the Company doesn't jettison
units
:> that aren't profitable. Why keep holdings that do nothing but
diminish
:> the stars of the organization by forcing the bottom-liners to cut
costs
:> in those lucrative areas so they can keep the useless units afloat?
:Could it be in part because in the circles in which the top honchos
travel,
:there's more prestige in running a TV network than in running theme
parks?
pride!)?
I dunno, I always thought the most prestige would come with whatever
made the most $$$.
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
:Last I heard, two monorails have received new carpet. One's Monorail
Blue,
:and the other is either pink or coral.
:Here's a pic of the new carpet...
:http://www.loranges.com/disney/new_carpet_monorail_blue.jpg
LOL! Is that the "test carpet"? (Whatever that means :-/)
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
:Yeah, but have a look at this:
:http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TDLprvw.html
WOW.
Derek Janssen
>
> In article <39E8BB00...@ultranet.com>, Derek says...
> >Imagineer theme costumes for MK maintenance people, and make any needed
> >day-to-day maintenance (eg. lightbulbs, painting) "part of the show"--
> >Not just Main Street painters and sweepers, but Mission-control
> >technicians for Tomorrowland, Cavalry for Frontierland, etc...
> >
...Paul, if I wanted your name off a' one of my posts I'd *ask* for
it!--Now SIDDOWN!!
Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com
Carol Kennedy
> travel,
> :there's more prestige in running a TV network than in running theme
> parks?
> :Or am I once again being a cynical old broad (an title I wear with
> pride!)?
>
> I dunno, I always thought the most prestige would come with whatever
> made the most $$$.
I don't think that's entirely the case. I'm sure many people can come up
with a favorite example, but to stick to this topic--I think that because of
their influence over people's opinions, indeed, over people's lives in many
ways, heads of networks (and other media empires) enjoy more status among
their socioeconomic peers. JMO.
--
Carol Kennedy, TDC Pollo Grande, Speaker of Inadequate Spanish, and
Translator without Portfolio
Paragon
ParrotHead <jo...@pcs-online.com> wrote in message
news:8sb20t$hcl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> HootDad <hoo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >one of the biggest
> > problems in my mind with both DL and WDW is the attitude of the exact
> > opposite - looking at every aspect as a revenue producer.
>
> Agreed. There seems to be a major push to make every square inch of
> the parks (DL and WDW alike) profitable. Why? Can't you, every once in
> a while, have something that costs money but contributes so greatly to
> the overall Show and atmosphere that it's worth keeping around?
Funny you should say that. Just had that exact situation arise in Mexico.
One of my "managers" decided that since Mexico Donald was no longer
appearing in Mexico, we should take advantage of the space. The space in
question is an area by the entrance/exit ramp, nearest to the jewelry shop,
but in the Plaza. The small fountain is there, along with the stairway
going up to the second floor. The area also contains a bench. He wanted to
put fixtures there, with toys and such. Never mind the Guests who like to
sit on the bench and relax, some while waiting for SO to shop. Never mind
the Guest who like to sit by that little fountain. No, we should put
merchandise there, even though we have the same exact things not ten feet
away. Common sense somehow prevailed, and the idea was nixed (but not by
him, someone higher up).
Now his idea is to put a register in the area of the big fountain. <shakes
head>
The New-and-Improved Paragon
Disgruntled and now with a "complete disregard for customer service"
Fudgie
> Disney in your mind, and it is manifesting itself on this group, in your
> website, and also with reporters who know a good Disney bashing always
gets a
> reaction or two. Paul T.
1) Stuff gets broken.
2) Disney doesn't fix it because they spent 75 million to theme a drop ride.
3) WDW Blues comes along.
4) Stuff gets fixed.
What's so bad about that?
--
Fudgie şoş
Caren
The WDWguide wrote:
> Yeah, but have a look at this:
Are those for Tokyo only or are we going to get some at WDW, too?
--
Caren
TDC Queen of Adventureland
The WDWguide
Randal Sheppard <webm...@sir-cliff.com> wrote:
> Congratulations Parrothead!
> Whenever anyone says that the opinions of Disney park fans are
irrelevant on the
> issue of upkeep I always think of the press Al Lutz has got in LA as
an example
> of how Disney's cut backs can come around to bite them.
> Glad to see the WDW Blues site is getting publicity, and hopefully a
few other
> articles will begin to pop up which might make Disney think twice
about their
> efforts to squeeze as much money as possible from the parks.
Except that ParrotHead is credible, which nobody can say about Al Lutz
any more.
Fudgie
you
> have some crackpot (just kidding, kind of) walking around with a camera
just
> trying to catch the company off guard...he's going to get a few good shots
for
> his dirt-page on the company.
I'm not doing this to "get the dirt" on WDW, or to make the company look
bad. I'm trying to get stuff fixed. And if you've been to the parks lately
(last few weeks), and heard what we have from CM's, we're having an effect.
If I have to use some embarrassing pictures to get things done, so be it.
Maybe Disney does have a maintenance labor shortage, but then why don't they
raise their wages? If they weren't trying to cut corners, the stuff would
get fixed, and none of this would have ever had to have happened. Isn't it
strange how Al Lutz took down his DL Blues site when Pressler left DL and
Cynthia came in charge?
Now the parks are looking better, and I'm glad to say that I might have had
a part in it.
I'm not going to argue with you any more on this topic, nor resort to name
calling. I've tried to present our point to you, but it isn't working.
Sincerely,
The crackpot.
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
<snip>
:One of my "managers" decided that since Mexico Donald was no longer
:appearing in Mexico
What happened? He was there just a couple of weeks ago when I came to
visit you.
<snip>
:The New-and-Improved Paragon
:Disgruntled and now with a "complete disregard for customer service"
And from whom, pray tell, did *that* brand come???
Tjmw2727
past September. The queue area was worse than any I have ever seen including 6
Flags NE. The picket fence was chipped and peeling and there was trash
everywhere, definately not what I would expect from Disney!
TJ
Tommy
> Fans say flaws make Kingdom less magical
Walt Disney loved his parks as if they were his children. Pressler is
the step-father who only cares how big a paycheck they bring home.
Tommy
Bob Me.
> The WDWguide wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but have a look at this:
>
> Are those for Tokyo only or are we going to get some at WDW, too?
>
> --
> Caren
> TDC Queen of Adventureland
I hope so. The Mickey shaped handholds were really neat. The train cars
themeselves look huge, I wonder what the capacity is on these?
--
Bob Me.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las
puertas
To reply to me via email, remove the "spam_and_eggs." from my email
address
ParrotHead
>Mexico Donald was no longer appearing in Mexico
He's not??? When did that happen? I'm glad I got a picture with him
during a recent trip!
ParrotHead
>Firstly, the author, Verrier, is writing from a decidedly pro-Disney
>point of view.
Verrier? Pro-Disney? Trust me--neither Verrier in specific or the
Sentinel in general could be described as "pro-Disney."
> Contentions that quality is not up to normal par are conveyed by him
>as belonging to critics, not himself.
Not only did I not get that impression from reading the article, but
my lengthy conversations with him indicated otherwise.
> As for Vahl, he admits that states of disrepair do of course present
>themselves but that they are addressed as quickly as possible
Of course, "as quickly as possible" is a relative standard. Perhaps
it should be phrased, "as quickly as possible in light of current
budget restrictions."
> You'll always have the torn seats
We're speaking of Star Tours and the infamous duct tape, I presume.
It is thankfully being repaired as we speak, and the cheap plastic that
broke (requiring the duct tape in the first place) is being replaced
with more durable metal. One might ask why metal wasn't used in the
first place.
The aforementioned duct tape was not a particularly "temporary" fix,
as Vahle indicated. I know for a fact that this tape was up for at
least 5 or 6 months because that much time passed between the time we
got the pictures and the time the pods started being rehabbed. A Star
Tours Cast Member wrote me and indicated that the tape had actually
been there for a YEAR.
>some workers not following procedure once in awhile
Speaking of the painters, I assume. I do indeed hope that this was a
one-time oversight, and that we won't see such a thing again in the
future. Time will tell.
>burnt bulbs
It's this simple: Disney used to replace unlit bulbs every night,
and now they don't. That is not a matter for debate--it's a fact.
> Also what we likely didn't have during walt's day, is tens of
>millions MORE guests at a location.
Which means MORE profits, which means MORE money to spend on
maintenance to offset the damage caused by those additional guests.
> And I also think critics are going to see a lot of things that aren't
>there, or have always been there
I've thought that myself sometimes, but I get too many e-mail
messages from current and former Cast Members saying otherwise. Many
folks who have worked there for years--folks who are in the best
position to know--have said that budgets have been cut and conditions
have declined.
ParrotHead
> Are those for Tokyo only or are we going to get some at WDW, too?
Well, let's see... Is the Oriental Land Company running WDW?
;-)
Actaully, I'm not thrilled with the Tokyo monorails. I may be in the
minority, but the Mickey windows and handles don't really work for me.
From the outside, I prefer the design of our current monorails. I do,
however, like the spacious interior of Tokyo's--and the fact that you
can move from one vehicle to another.
___________
ParrotHead
http://www.wdwblues.com
Paul T.
>
>I'm not doing this to "get the dirt" on WDW, or to make the company look
>bad. I'm trying to get stuff fixed. And if you've been to the parks lately
>(last few weeks), and heard what we have from CM's, we're having an effect.
>If I have to use some embarrassing pictures to get things done, so be it.
>Maybe Disney does have a maintenance labor shortage, but then why don't they
>raise their wages? If they weren't trying to cut corners, the stuff would
>get fixed, and none of this would have ever had to have happened. Isn't it
>strange how Al Lutz took down his DL Blues site when Pressler left DL and
>Cynthia came in charge?
>
>Now the parks are looking better, and I'm glad to say that I might have had
>a part in it.
>I'm not going to argue with you any more on this topic, nor resort to name
>calling. I've tried to present our point to you, but it isn't working.
>
>Sincerely,
>The crackpot.
>
>--
>Fudgie şoş
Paul T. responds: Okay, you got me. I apologize. Crackpot (even though I said I
was kidding) was a poor choice. Please, forgive me.
But if something destroys credibility, it's a group who tries to whitewash
something all one color. Look, not you, not Parrothead, not your honesty or
anything else comes under question. But any, ANY group who picks a sentiment and
then adjusts all of their efforts towards justifying those sentiments to the
exclusion of others, is viewed by the public at large as being lopsided. And
lopsidedness wards off the biggest chunk of viability of the group.
Like it or not, what you guys have created is a dirt page. A page dedicated to
dirt. A page dedicated to fault. A page dedicated to shortcoming, blame and
again, dirt. I'm not saying that your motives are questionable. I do think that
you have love and park quality at heart but motives are not always necessary in
determining plausibility of cause. Sometimes the cause itself, regardless of
motive, seems biased.
Yet, even with the bias of excentuating fault, your page certainly can have
merit. I've said it in several different ways in this thread but you ignore
that. You reject anything but an unconditional embracing of your site. You
reject any criticism of your site it seems which is ironic for a site that is
founded, in criticism. For Disney. Well well well, you dismiss me as unworthy,
out of what you perceive as a fault finding mission of mine. Now can you perhaps
see how a fault-finding mission web page can be easily dismissed by otherwise
loving Park fans worldwide?
Your page has potential to be perhaps not instrumental, but contributory in
change. I can admire that and that much, your pages, are not entirely without my
support. I've said that all along but you simply dismiss me. Not worth
discussing with. I'm not all for you, so I'm all against you, so I have an
agenda and not worth dealing with. But you judge my input incorrectly. And as
I've said the very way you "erroneously" judge my input, is how some "correctly"
judge your website because your website IS devoted to not admitting an extremely
high quality of the parks as still existing and the benchmark from which to
measure all shortcomings thereafter.
Paul T.
Paul T.
>
>> I feel you have suffered a psychological death of
>> Disney in your mind, and it is manifesting itself on this group, in your
>> website, and also with reporters who know a good Disney bashing always
>gets a
>> reaction or two. Paul T.
>
>1) Stuff gets broken.
>2) Disney doesn't fix it because they spent 75 million to theme a drop ride.
>3) WDW Blues comes along.
>4) Stuff gets fixed.
>
>What's so bad about that?
Paul T. resonds: Your pages are not without potential benefit but I would
caution against a tendency to judge your effect overly generously. Disney fixes
over a million things a year at WDW and has been doing that, long before WDW
Blues. Over a million things a year, literally, provably, and even on news pages
right now that mention that they fix more than a million things a year.
I wouldn't be so quick to take credit for something that Disney has been doing
better than any other theme park, or possibly better than any other facility in
the world, on the scale they do, all along. Paul T.
Mark J. Guttag
Fudgie wrote:
> > have 100% more work that needs to be done than last week. And of course if
> you
> > have some crackpot (just kidding, kind of) walking around with a camera
> just
> > trying to catch the company off guard...he's going to get a few good shots
> for
> > his dirt-page on the company.
>
> I'm not doing this to "get the dirt" on WDW, or to make the company look
> bad. I'm trying to get stuff fixed. And if you've been to the parks lately
> (last few weeks), and heard what we have from CM's, we're having an effect.
> If I have to use some embarrassing pictures to get things done, so be it.
> Maybe Disney does have a maintenance labor shortage, but then why don't they
> raise their wages? If they weren't trying to cut corners, the stuff would
> get fixed, and none of this would have ever had to have happened.
And as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Also, one could ask: "Why
Disney can't afford to employ some people to go around the parks on a regular
basis looking for such maintenance issues?" Virtually every picture that you
have posted does not just reflect a problem that developed in the last 24 hours;
they're pictures
that show long-term neglect. Even worse, as a guest, you can only take pictures
of visible maintenance problems, problems that even a guest can see. If Disney
is willing to allow so many visible maintenance problems, it is even more
alarming to consider how many non-visible maintenance issues are not being
addressed.
Thanks for all of your work taking pictures of how the parks look for those of
us who cannot visit WDW more than a a few times a year.
Mark
>
>
> Now the parks are looking better, and I'm glad to say that I might have had
> a part in it.
> I'm not going to argue with you any more on this topic, nor resort to name
> calling. I've tried to present our point to you, but it isn't working.
>
> Sincerely,
> The crackpot.
>
> --
> Fudgie ºoº
Paul T.
>
>I don't think that's entirely the case. I'm sure many people can come up
>with a favorite example, but to stick to this topic--I think that because of
>their influence over people's opinions, indeed, over people's lives in many
>ways, heads of networks (and other media empires) enjoy more status among
>their socioeconomic peers. JMO.
>
>--
>Carol Kennedy
Paul T. responds: Please allow me to give a scenario that explains why Disney
bought ABC. Hopefully I can convey it without trying to sound like a know it
all. Well, probably too late for that so here goes.
Imagine a manufacturer of something, say...car parts. The manufacturer needs raw
materials and a way to get those raw materials on site. A way to fashion and
treat those materials into something useful. Then a way to market and provide
the public with those finished goods and a way to transport them.
Everything is going along fine. The materials are being provided by a steel
manufacturer, trucking firms bring it in, machine makers provide tooling, stores
provide shelving. But let's say one day the stores where the products are
shelved go out of business, costing millions in lost revenue for the
manufacturer, in finding a new outlet for their product.
In some cases, the manufacturer may buy the store so that it can have full
control over it's destiny.
Disney bought ABC because Disney is a media conglomerate, an entertainment
conglomerate. Disney, before they bought ABC, experienced lapses in network tv
availability for their movies and shows. It was vowed by Disney to never let
their products be susceptible to the whims of a media not owned by them insofar
as network tv goes, again. So as a matter of economics and synergy, and insuring
their vehicle for presenting products, they bought ABC.
On top of that, being a total media and entertainment oriented company, there
would seem to be little room for questioning the association between such a
conglomerate, and "tv." Someone has to own the stations, right? And those with
the biggest stake in entertainment, are going to be the ones to own network
television stations. Its almost a no brainer, when we think of it that way, as
to why Disney maintains ABC.
I could quote some sources for the above explanation, as it is also one (in
different words) given by Disney themselves, but I think I've quoted my sources
enough times in here to be given the benefit of the doubt. But if there's
someone who takes great issue with my plausibility, still, I'll quote the
company in the above matters. Paul T.
Paul T.
says...
retail and service industry wide. The economy is so good that some prices are
being driven up because of being a worker's market, and being able to demand
more money. Labor shortages are real and I can not say whether they are at
Disney or not, but it would be the first place I encountered that some sort of
evidence of reaching the "bottom of the labor" barrell wasn't evident, if it
wasn't in fact existing there.
Just try to get a hamburger from the drive thru at BK for crying out loud. Just
walk in a Kmart and try to find someone to help you, and then when you do,
notice as to whether or not they have their wits about them. Just try to get a
contractor out to your house, to unstick a window.
From contractors who WANT your money being too busy to even accept work, to
hiring the developmentally disabled adults for sales associates, evidence of
quality labor being hard to come by is abundant.
Some of what Disney may be experiencing could be a result of that. Every kid who
only wants a few bucks for a six pack, is needed by just about every company out
there. So every company is being infused with sometimes, non-caring labor.
Things wane. Perfection is a goal, not a destination. You'll always see the
parks get dirty, get cleaned. Get dirty, get cleaned. Get dirty, get cleaned.
And the economy, both good and bad turns of it, can have both good and bad
effects. The illusion Disney creates gets harder and harder to maintain, the
larger it gets I think but they still do an amazing job. Even brand new parks
elsewhere and certainly aging ones nationwide, are not necessarily known for not
showing signs of overuse by the public. Heck, when DL first opened, it was
fraught with quality problems. No one seems to remember that. Its a constant
struggle and one that Walt himself dealt with. Except that in his day, it was a
much more manageably sized organization. Paul T.
Randal Sheppard
The WDWguide wrote:
> In article <39E85B72...@sir-cliff.com>,
> Randal Sheppard <webm...@sir-cliff.com> wrote:
> > Congratulations Parrothead!
> > Whenever anyone says that the opinions of Disney park fans are
> irrelevant on the
> > issue of upkeep I always think of the press Al Lutz has got in LA as
> an example
> > of how Disney's cut backs can come around to bite them.
> > Glad to see the WDW Blues site is getting publicity, and hopefully a
> few other
> > articles will begin to pop up which might make Disney think twice
> about their
> > efforts to squeeze as much money as possible from the parks.
>
> Except that ParrotHead is credible, which nobody can say about Al Lutz
> any more.
>
Yeah, I guess Al's kind of gotten to the point of finding flaw in
attractions that haven't opened yet (sticky fingerprints on DCA's Zepher
and moths attracted to the lights of Paradise Pier) and you do approach
his site with the knowledge that he's got an axe to grind.
I do, however, think people like him are important in that they do help to
keep Disney on their toes as they know as soon as they slip up that
thousands of people on the Internet will hear about it...
All the best,
Randal Sheppard
--
=================================================
RANDAL SHEPPARD
Melbourne, Australia
webm...@sir-cliff.com
THE SIR CLIFF RICHARD HOME PAGE
http://www.sir-cliff.com
=================================================
GREAT MOMENTS WITH MR DISNEY
"All you've got to do is own up to your ignorance
honestly, and you'll find people who are willing
to fill your head with information"
-Walt Disney
=================================================
Randal Sheppard
ParrotHead wrote:
> Caren <dri...@sgi.net> wrote:
>
> > Are those for Tokyo only or are we going to get some at WDW, too?
>
> Well, let's see... Is the Oriental Land Company running WDW?
>
> ;-)
>
> Actaully, I'm not thrilled with the Tokyo monorails. I may be in the
> minority, but the Mickey windows and handles don't really work for me.
> From the outside, I prefer the design of our current monorails. I do,
> however, like the spacious interior of Tokyo's--and the fact that you
> can move from one vehicle to another.
I agree with you on this one; I don't think we need Mickey everywhere!
The spacious interiors are nice, though.
Paul T.
>
> Paul T. <pa...@tm.net> wrote:
>
>>Firstly, the author, Verrier, is writing from a decidedly pro-Disney
>>point of view.
>
> Verrier? Pro-Disney? Trust me--neither Verrier in specific or the
>Sentinel in general could be described as "pro-Disney."
>
the "fans contend quality problems". You let that patronization taint your
reading of the article. Verriers views are spotted throughout the article.
Here's some of HIS views:
"Disney`s theme parks are still among the cleanest and best maintained in the
world. And many tourists probably don`t notice the blemishes."
"There`s no indication that the disrepair has hurt business at Disney World,
which has helped the parent company rebound from a two-year financial slump."
"...the faults aren't serious"
"Keeping up appearances has always been paramount for Disney, echoing the values
of the company`s founder." (note the word always, inclusive of 'now').
Under all circumstances in the article, he makes it clear that any alarm due
because of imperfections is owned only by you and other critics. While he
(barely) admits some imperfections himself, he at no time indicates that his
opinion is that Disney is slacking to a noteworthy degree, other than the notes
some internet critics such as yourself have cited.
Not only did I not get that impression from reading the article, but
>my lengthy conversations with him indicated otherwise.
Paul T.: You were being patronized. Reporters are supposed to sound like they
are on your side if they want your side of the story. Understand that and it may
help you deal with the media later.
Do you want a "personal" example? I willingly joined a parenting class one time,
to help me in fulfilling general guidelines of probate court when determining
custody. I won, by the way. But a reporter requested an interview with me, about
the (parenting) program. He was very friendly and behaved very impressed that I
would research the experience and provisions judges look for regarding best
interests of the child. He indicated that the article was going to be about
responsibility and setting examples. The article came out the next day and do
you want to know what the headline was? "Man joins group designed to curb child
abuse."
That is just a personal example, but when reporters talk to you, and seem to
take up sentiments with you, understand that it is a common ploy to make you
feel uninhibited to give details.
>
>> We're speaking of Star Tours and the infamous duct tape, I presume.
>It is thankfully being repaired as we speak, and the cheap plastic that
>broke (requiring the duct tape in the first place) is being replaced
>with more durable metal. One might ask why metal wasn't used in the
>first place.
This sounds like a great example of how your site may in fact be a catalyst,
sometimes, for change. Good work!
> The aforementioned duct tape was not a particularly "temporary" fix,
>as Vahle indicated. I know for a fact that this tape was up for at
>least 5 or 6 months because that much time passed between the time we
>got the pictures and the time the pods started being rehabbed. A Star
>Tours Cast Member wrote me and indicated that the tape had actually
>been there for a YEAR.
I understand. One problem is, with facility upkeep, and please keep in mind that
I am a professional facility technician, is a tendency for things to get lost in
the system. I have 250 people who can be my boss at work, because I tell all of
them that they can tell me what to do. They can all tell me what needs to be
addressed and fixed. But I tell them that while I'll do my best at taking their
concerns to heart, I recommend filling out a work requisition so that I can not
"forget" about it. Usually I don't forget but sometimes I do, given the informal
rapport and numbers of people who feel comfortable to complain to me. But even
with work orders, if there are millions of them, they are treated and tracked
like any other set of data that you have millions of. And even the areas in need
of the most attention, may get put on the back burner for any number of reasons.
The duct tape would seem to be one of those that should have been re-noticed and
re-enacted upon sooner. But often a different kind of flaw, not one relating to
cutbacks, can be responsible for overlooking something like that. Such as
procedure may dictate that underlings may "not" in fact be allowed to fill out
work orders themselves. Thusly, if left only up to the supervisor, and he has
already put the issue behind him because of filling out a req, a year ago, it
may not get addressed until maintenace finds the lost work order.
Or, the evolution of a "fix" is sometimes determined by the urgency of it. If no
one in command near the needed repair recognizes the urgency, they may not have
that overdue work order re-checked on. In this case, it's human judgement, and
not bean counters making cutbacks. And in the meantime, the tape indeed is an
interim fix. Just one that's not appropriate for as long as it was.
>
>>some workers not following procedure once in awhile
>
> Speaking of the painters, I assume. I do indeed hope that this was a
>one-time oversight, and that we won't see such a thing again in the
>future. Time will tell.
Paul T.: Actually, if I recall there's been another story on this group within
the last year or so of work being done during guest occupancy within the gates.
I suppose that once in awhile, procedure is bypassed because of extenuating
circumstances. I mean, this is a human endeavor, don't forget. The parks, the
running of them, the maintenance of them. People. People who get sick. People
who go on vacation. People who get fired. I can't tell you how many times at
work we've had to completely rearrange production so we can yes...paint
something at an otherwise inappropriate time, due to a human factor of the
painter is going to be on vacation starting tomorrow, or they are so swamped
that a little morning painting is the ONLY way it's going to get done.
Fortunately, we see that this is not common practice. Personally I don't see the
big deal if some thing were done w/guests around but hey, show is show.
>
>>burnt bulbs
>
> It's this simple: Disney used to replace unlit bulbs every night,
>and now they don't. That is not a matter for debate--it's a fact.
Paul T.: Bulbs are "your" benchmark. Things change. Management, if they are
worth their salt, will always review everything from paper clip and light bulb
usage, down to product pricing. Maybe someone made the choice to change bulbs
once a month. To you that means a violation of spiritual proportions and
indication of neglect. But perhaps not to everyone. Bulbs, and their frequency
with which to change them, have long been an issue in facilities. Especially
since light bulbs aren't always just those cheap little lamp bulbs like they use
to be when Walt was around. But I won't argue with you that if that makes the
Kingdom look cheesy, with burnt bulbs, who am I to say that shouldn't affect you
like that? Just that being a building guy, I understand how differing bulb
changing frequency can be from place to place and how somewhere as big as Disney
may wane in their urgency from time to time in the matter.
>
>> Also what we likely didn't have during walt's day, is tens of
>>millions MORE guests at a location.
>
> Which means MORE profits, which means MORE money to spend on
>maintenance to offset the damage caused by those additional guests.\
Paul T. responds: Yes, but what it also means is that the same amount of money
increase % as guest traffic increase %, may not be enough. Reason being, is that
while money may go up in relationship to guest numbers, there is something else
that goes up disproportionally higher: wear and tear. 100 guests, 45 hundred
dollars, 20 or 30 dollars in damages if you will from wear and tear. A million
guests, 45 million dollars in revenue, but 10,000 in veritable abuse from having
what amounts to a herd of people trampling everything in sight like bulls in
china shops. It's a phenomenon that I probably wont' convince you of but I have
learned from experience that the higher the traffic, the more the repairs needed
outpace the increase in people using things.
>
>> And I also think critics are going to see a lot of things that aren't
>>there, or have always been there
>
> I've thought that myself sometimes, but I get too many e-mail
>messages from current and former Cast Members saying otherwise. Many
>folks who have worked there for years--folks who are in the best
>position to know--have said that budgets have been cut and conditions
>have declined.
>___________
>ParrotHead
>http://www.wdwblues.com
>
Paul T. responds: As well I can not take that from you. But as I've said before,
if you are going to claim budgets have decreased and then base credibility on
that, you should perhaps consider going by numbers rather than hearsay. Post
past budgets, and present budgets, and factor in changes, then make your
assessment. "We heard" is fine if it works for you. But for me, its hearsay.
ParrotHead
>I would caution against a tendency to judge your effect overly
>generously.
We try very hard to neither under- nor overestimate the effect of
WDW Blues.
What we know for a fact is that Disney visits our site on a regular
basis. Much, MUCH more so since Richard Verrier mentioned us to Jeff
Vahle when interviewing him prior to the article coming out.
We also know that Cast Members have told us on more than one
occassion about months-old problems being suddenly fixed within days of
being highlighted on our site. Those CMs think that perhaps this is
more than coincidence, and I tend to agree.
We additionally know that Disney has discussed our site in meetings.
One CM writes that a "high level manager said he was going to use your
site to pinppoint problem areas."
Do we recognize that sometimes it's just coincidence that a long-
term problem gets fixed shortly after we post pictures of them? Yes.
But do we also believe that sometimes it's NOT just coincidence? Yes--
and with pretty good reason.
ParrotHead
>ANY group who picks a sentiment and then adjusts all of their efforts
>towards justifying those sentiments to the exclusion of others, is
>viewed by the public at large as being lopsided.
Where do you suppose "those sentiments" came from? Do you think I
and the others who share my opinions simply woke up one random day and
decided to start talking about perceived maintenance declines at Walt
Disney World?
It didn't happen that way. Instead, we started seeing more and more
problems popping up that weren't there 5 or 10 years ago. For me, the
number of those problems eventually became so overwhelming that I
decided I wanted to do something about it--something more than just
writing letters, which wasn't getting the problems fixed.
>A page dedicated to fault.
Well, that's true. If the fault weren't there, there would be no
need for our site. And we don't generally spend time on the site
talking about what's great about WDW because that's not the purpose of
the site (and there are hundreds of others that do it quite well).
However, we do give Disney credit where credit is due--when they do a
great job fixing a problem, we praise them.
>You reject anything but an unconditional embracing of your site.
That's just not true. Many folks visit our site and join the mailing
list who disagree with us, partially agree, or fully agree. We welcome
them all.
Fudgie
doing
> better than any other theme park, or possibly better than any other
facility in
> the world, on the scale they do, all along. Paul T.
You have a point, but there were a few coincidences, so I guess I lumped
them together in a generalization that was perhaps a bit too broad.
ParrotHead
> You were being patronized by the reporter so as to nurture out
> the "fans contend quality problems".
I'm well aware of the fact that most reporters operate this way, and
kept it in mind at all times. Thus, I was quite anxious to see how the
article turned out.
I was pleased after reading it. I counted 9 people quoted in the
article, and only one of those--the Vice President of Walt Disney World-
-said there wasn't a problem. If that was an article written to make
us "nuts" look like we were alone in thinking there were "quality
problems", then Verrier did a bad job.
> "Disney`s theme parks are still among the cleanest and best
>maintained in the world. And many tourists probably don`t notice the
>blemishes."
You've not heard anyone from WDW Blues argue otherwise.
>"There`s no indication that the disrepair has hurt business at Disney
>World, which has helped the parent company rebound from a two-year
>financial slump."
Ditto. Although (ghasp!) Verrier is actually saying that
there's "disrepair" in the parks! Could he be a whacko like us
> "Keeping up appearances has always been paramount for Disney, echoing
>the values of the company`s founder." (note the word always, inclusive
>of 'now').
You left out the sentence just before this one, which says that
a "recent photo shows burned-out bulbs at City Hall." That photo, by
the way, was taken by the Sentinel. And it was Verrier who found the
problems with the carousel. He noticed it himself and asked me about it
(I told him I had never noticed).
> One problem is, with facility upkeep, and please keep in mind that
> I am a professional facility technician, is a tendency for things to
>get lost in the system.
Talk to the CMs, Paul. I have. And what they've told me is that they
submit work requests AGAIN AND AGAIN, and yet certain problems don't
get fixed. These things aren't getting "lost in the system"--they're
simply not being done due to budget or labor constraints. When the
problem came up in Star Tours, a conscious and deliberate decision was
made that the duct tape should be left alone because the attraction was
schedule for rehab 6-12 months down the road. I do not find this level
of quality to be acceptable, but it's entirely possible that you and I
disagree on this.
> you should perhaps consider going by numbers rather than hearsay. Post
> past budgets, and present budgets, and factor in changes, then make
>your assessment.
You know as well as I do that those numbers aren't available. All we
have is "hearsay." We must, then, evaluate the sources of that
information and make judgements accordingly. When CMs who are in a
position to know write to me and tell me these things, I take them at
their word. Whether you do is your choice, of course.
Fudgie
said I
> was kidding) was a poor choice. Please, forgive me.
Forgiven.
> But if something destroys credibility, it's a group who tries to whitewash
> something all one color. Look, not you, not Parrothead, not your honesty
or
> anything else comes under question. But any, ANY group who picks a
sentiment and
> then adjusts all of their efforts towards justifying those sentiments to
the
> exclusion of others, is viewed by the public at large as being lopsided.
And
> lopsidedness wards off the biggest chunk of viability of the group.
Definitely agreed.
> Like it or not, what you guys have created is a dirt page. A page
dedicated to
> dirt. A page dedicated to fault. A page dedicated to shortcoming, blame
and
> again, dirt. I'm not saying that your motives are questionable. I do think
that
> you have love and park quality at heart but motives are not always
necessary in
> determining plausibility of cause. Sometimes the cause itself, regardless
of
> motive, seems biased.
Agreed again. That's why we try to follow up on things and get them placed
on the "fixed" pages. I got quite a few pictures for the "fixed" pages today
at the MK. They're really working on things! But it is easy to think that
we're just a dirt page. People remember the bad things, not the good. Any
suggestions on how we can improve it?
> Yet, even with the bias of excentuating fault, your page certainly can
have
> merit. I've said it in several different ways in this thread but you
ignore
> that.
Sorry. I'm just drawing from your earliest responses when we first
introduced the site. Now I know your opinion better, and I'm very glad to
hear it.
> I've said the very way you "erroneously" judge my input, is how some
"correctly"
> judge your website because your website IS devoted to not admitting an
extremely
> high quality of the parks as still existing and the benchmark from which
to
> measure all shortcomings thereafter.
Agreed. There are so many positive Disney websites, and so much that we're
trying to cover (32,000 acres! ;-), that it's almost impossible to devote
time to all the good things we see. There are too many! Perhaps a link
section to our favorite positive Disney websites is in order. What do you
think?
I took about 200 pics today of just "stuff", construction, new paint, old
problems, fixed things, etc. We're pretty busy! A CM at the HM asked why I
was taking pictures of their new FP machines. Well, they look cool!
--
Fudgie şoş
Catherine L.
Last time I went to Pleasure Island (September 3) the huge lighted sign read
"Leasure Island."
Sounded more like a retirement home.
--
TDC Nala, Lurker in Tropical Foliage and Fierce Protector of Castaway Creek
Captain of Team Kungaloosh!
upcoming WDW trips: Nov. 2000 (offsite), Dec. 2000 (ASMo/PO), Feb 2001
(Coronado Springs), Aug. 2001 (Swan/AKL)
Fudgie wrote in message ...
>Fans say flaws make Kingdom less magical
>By Richard Verrier
>of the Sentinel Staff
>
>Published in The Orlando Sentinel on October 14, 2000
>
>As John Hornbuckle strolled down Main Street at Walt Disney World, he saw
>something unexpected: more than two dozen burned-out lights at the train
>station and atop several stores.
Fudgie
ask: "Why
> Disney can't afford to employ some people to go around the parks on a
regular
> basis looking for such maintenance issues?"
Mark, you don't know how many times, when frustrated with all the obvious
(to me, at least) maintenance problems, I've almost gone to Guest Relations
and asked them for a bucket of paint!
We've had CM's write to us that management is aware of the site and using it
to pinpoint problems. That's good!
> Virtually every picture that you
> have posted does not just reflect a problem that developed in the last 24
hours;
> they're pictures that show long-term neglect.
Agreed.
> Even worse, as a guest, you can only take pictures
> of visible maintenance problems, problems that even a guest can see. If
Disney
> is willing to allow so many visible maintenance problems, it is even more
> alarming to consider how many non-visible maintenance issues are not being
> addressed.
While we were working on the article in the Sentinel, this was an item that
came up. Unfortunately, this is something that will have to manifest itself
in an unfortunate way, if an accident does occur. Disneyland has had a
number of these incidents in recent times. I just hope it doesn't happen
here anytime soon! Here's to hoping it's all only skin deep!
> Thanks for all of your work taking pictures of how the parks look for
those of
> us who cannot visit WDW more than a a few times a year.
Please realize that the majority of material on our site isn't very
positive. I hope it isn't being assumed that that's how WDW looks
everywhere. The parks look wonderful! They're still much, much better than
any others. I spent the full day at IOA yesterday, and most of today in the
MK. The difference in quality in maintenance is unbelievable! If we had to
chronicle all the problems there with the same level of scrutiny we did in
Disney, it would be a full time job. Disney's parks are beautiful, and set
the standards for all others. We just don't want to see those standards
slip, not even the tiniest bit!
So please don't get a negative view of the parks from us. That's not what
we're trying to do. I know *I* certainly wouldn't go to the parks more than
a few times a year if they looked like that everywhere!!!
--
Fudgie ºoº
MercuryWaxing
>
It's a great site. I don't think things are as terrible as some people say but
if your site gets things done by all means keep doing it.
MErcury
Fudgie
> The spacious interiors are nice, though.
From what I heard, the new monorails on order for WDW (28, I think), are
open like this, and aren't segregated by benches.
Tiggerfan
the company ABC bought). Disney wanted to purchase ESPN from Cap
Cities for the obvious marketing tie ins, but Cap Cities said no, so
instead ABC took over Cap Cities and justified it by feeding the line
about wanting to maintain the pipe as well as the content filling it.
Its utter bull because any network will pick up a high quality TV show
regardless of who its produced by.
Tiggerfan
---------------------------
ATTN: All WDW Locals - subscribe to the WDW Locals mailing list.
Send a message to wdwlocal...@tiggerfan.net with the word subscribe in the body.
Tiggerfan
regularly check items in hopes of moving them to the fixed page. And
why would the site info say that we will gladly take the site down
when it is no longer necessary?
On 15 Oct 2000 06:53:43 -0700, Paul T. <pa...@tm.net> wrote:
>In article <sujb3bn...@corp.supernews.com>, "Fudgie" says...
>>
>>I'm not doing this to "get the dirt" on WDW, or to make the company look
>>bad. I'm trying to get stuff fixed. And if you've been to the parks lately
>>(last few weeks), and heard what we have from CM's, we're having an effect.
>>If I have to use some embarrassing pictures to get things done, so be it.
>>Maybe Disney does have a maintenance labor shortage, but then why don't they
>>raise their wages? If they weren't trying to cut corners, the stuff would
>>get fixed, and none of this would have ever had to have happened. Isn't it
>>strange how Al Lutz took down his DL Blues site when Pressler left DL and
>>Cynthia came in charge?
>>
>>Now the parks are looking better, and I'm glad to say that I might have had
>>a part in it.
>>I'm not going to argue with you any more on this topic, nor resort to name
>>calling. I've tried to present our point to you, but it isn't working.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>The crackpot.
>>
>>--
>>Fudgie şoş
>
>Paul T. responds: Okay, you got me. I apologize. Crackpot (even though I said I
>was kidding) was a poor choice. Please, forgive me.
>
>But if something destroys credibility, it's a group who tries to whitewash
>something all one color. Look, not you, not Parrothead, not your honesty or
>anything else comes under question. But any, ANY group who picks a sentiment and
>then adjusts all of their efforts towards justifying those sentiments to the
>exclusion of others, is viewed by the public at large as being lopsided. And
>lopsidedness wards off the biggest chunk of viability of the group.
>
>Like it or not, what you guys have created is a dirt page. A page dedicated to
>dirt. A page dedicated to fault. A page dedicated to shortcoming, blame and
>again, dirt. I'm not saying that your motives are questionable. I do think that
>you have love and park quality at heart but motives are not always necessary in
>determining plausibility of cause. Sometimes the cause itself, regardless of
>motive, seems biased.
>
>Yet, even with the bias of excentuating fault, your page certainly can have
>merit. I've said it in several different ways in this thread but you ignore
>that. You reject anything but an unconditional embracing of your site. You
>reject any criticism of your site it seems which is ironic for a site that is
>founded, in criticism. For Disney. Well well well, you dismiss me as unworthy,
>out of what you perceive as a fault finding mission of mine. Now can you perhaps
>see how a fault-finding mission web page can be easily dismissed by otherwise
>loving Park fans worldwide?
>
>Your page has potential to be perhaps not instrumental, but contributory in
>change. I can admire that and that much, your pages, are not entirely without my
>support. I've said that all along but you simply dismiss me. Not worth
>discussing with. I'm not all for you, so I'm all against you, so I have an
>agenda and not worth dealing with. But you judge my input incorrectly. And as
>I've said the very way you "erroneously" judge my input, is how some "correctly"
>judge your website because your website IS devoted to not admitting an extremely
>high quality of the parks as still existing and the benchmark from which to
>measure all shortcomings thereafter.
>
Fudgie
> being redesigned and replaced due to their age and the difficulty in
> getting parts for them. I asked Richard (the reporter) if this might
> have been what Vahle was talking about. Richard seemed convinced that
> this wasn't it, though, and that Vahle was actually talking about the
> decorative lightbulbs. I think Richard may be mistaken, but maybe not...
Actually, today at the Magic Kingdom, we spotted what Vahle was probably
talking about. In a few places, we noticed what looked like completely new
strings of bulbs. They're white strings, very similar to the original ones,
and amazingly spotless. I left before it got dark, so I couldn't see them in
action, but I snapped pics of both the new and old strings.
New bulbs-
Plaza Restaurant: http://www.loranges.com/disney/newbulbs1.jpg
Bathrooms near City Hall: http://www.loranges.com/disney/newbulbs2.jpg
Old Bulbs-
Above Emporium: http://www.loranges.com/disney/oldbulbs1.jpg
--
Fudgie şoş
Paragon
The Sorcerer's Apprentice <Fant...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QRhG5.81201$O95.7...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Paragon wrote in message ...
> <snip>
> :One of my "managers" decided that since Mexico Donald was no longer
> :appearing in Mexico
>
> What happened? He was there just a couple of weeks ago when I came to
> visit you.
Donald is out on that character bus annoyance. Sometimes, that is
> <snip>
> :The New-and-Improved Paragon
> :Disgruntled and now with a "complete disregard for customer service"
>
> And from whom, pray tell, did *that* brand come???
Ask me in person sometime.
Mark J. Guttag
> positive. I hope it isn't being assumed that that's how WDW looks
> everywhere. The parks look wonderful! They're still much, much better than
> any others. I spent the full day at IOA yesterday, and most of today in the
> MK. The difference in quality in maintenance is unbelievable! If we had to
> chronicle all the problems there with the same level of scrutiny we did in
> Disney, it would be a full time job. Disney's parks are beautiful, and set
> the standards for all others. We just don't want to see those standards
> slip, not even the tiniest bit!
Having been to IOA last December, less than a year after opening, I agree: WDW
still looks much better, although it doesn't look as well cared for as it has in
the past.
I have also seen what can happen to a Disney park when the standards slip for a
prolonged period. There are sections of DL, particularly the New Tomorrowland
section, Frontierland (before the current refurbishment), and the upper stories
of buildings all over the park that were no better, IMHO, than IOA in terms of
maintenance. I really don't want any park at WDW to sink to the standard that
parts of DL have fallen to.
And I noticed the maintenance problems in DL back in '96, even before I knew
about Al Lutz's site or about a person named Paul Pressler.
Mark
>
> So please don't get a negative view of the parks from us. That's not what
> we're trying to do. I know *I* certainly wouldn't go to the parks more than
> a few times a year if they looked like that everywhere!!!
>
> --
> Fudgie ºoº
Paul T.
>
>Then why would there also exist a fixed page, and the fact that we
>regularly check items in hopes of moving them to the fixed page. And
>why would the site info say that we will gladly take the site down
>when it is no longer necessary?
>
you have a page listing items fixed, before you ever had one. I made the
suggestion to Parrothead for documenting when things got fixed, on February 9 of
this year, before you had the documented "fixed" page. I said:
"It wouldn't be fair for a website to show burnt out bulbs, and then not ever
come back and say if or when they've been replaced. Your site can enable
networking that allows subsequent visitors to report when and if things have
improved or not. Some way of measuring these types of things is needed for the
site to have the respect it wants and deserves."
I made that suggestion to Parrothead in February in post at:
http://x58.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=583902014.3&CONTEXT=971662433.1990459421&hitnum=1
So you see, unlike your pages, I've not only highlighted potential merit with
those pages but have helped with them. Of course, I never saw anyone with enough
apparent integrity to come back and say "thanks, nice suggestion! We're going to
use it!" Of course, even though it didn't exist before, and then I suggested it
to them and now it exists...of course I'm sure they'll say I had nothing to do
with it. Just like the countless suggestions I've made on here about what
Disney's next move may or should be, and then everyone argues with me. But then
when those suggestions materialize at Disney, many including the same
adversaries come back to say how obvious it was that what I said was plain to
anyone. Even though they argued against me for it to begin with. So let's hear
it, how I'm still just finding fault with your pages and how I should help
improve with positive suggestions for them if I think the pages need it.
I already have and will still just get accused of being one sided, and then have
the boys take their pages and go home, claiming I can't be dealt with. ;-0 Paul
T.
Paul T.
>
>
>Please realize that the majority of material on our site isn't very
>So please don't get a negative view of the parks from us. That's not what
>we're trying to do. I know *I* certainly wouldn't go to the parks more than
>a few times a year if they looked like that everywhere!!
>Fudgie ºoº
Paul T. responds: There ya go. Now you are starting to see the forest in spite
of the trees. Fudge, can I call ya fudge? Fudge, I don't have a problem with
your pages. And if Disney actually looks at your page and it helps them to
highlight high profile areas, that's great. As a maint. man from way back, I can
tell you that "I" can't always, nor can the ones turning in req's always,
identifiy what items are best fixed, first.
Now, looky here a minute. That Vahl guy or whatever his name is said something
to the effect that they work on million(s) of work orders per year. I believe
it, don't you? So obviously, they are identifying, perhaps hundreds of thousands
of times more areas of needed attention, than even your crew is. They would have
to be, because you guys document dozens, not millions. So give them a little
credit on your page, will ya? You want your hands washed, ya gotta do some hand
washing in kind. (over 30 may recognize that cliche')
But also, and to your credit, I'll combine what I've said in the above two
paragraphs. With their obvious level of committment to fixing things by the
millions, and your pointing out which things stand out from stage left, center
and right, perhaps the twain will in fact meet! (is that right, twain? Wouldn't
want another word-twain wreck on here, so to misspeak. heh)
But I will say I'm impressed that you've recognized that your page can come
across as negative. And trust me when I say you want to catch the attention of
people you don't already know. People who are only going to be familiar with
your pages, as their first impressions allow them to be.
And I think the suggestion I made which you guys followed for putting up a
"items fixed" page proves that my help may be worth listening to, eh? ;-)
Blues...gotta go. Keep it if you don't mind limiting your readership to those
who are "prepared" for a negative experience, regardless of if that's what you
provide or not.
Redesign the pages to give it a totally positive spin. You can accentuate faults
and make it sound like the most magical thing this side of Walt Disney World, if
you do it right. Who was it that once said: Democracy is being able to tell
someone to go to h(you know where) but doing it in such a way as get them to
look forward to getting there!
I got more suggestions, but perhaps an addressing of my suggestion that was
already used, with no thanks, is in order, eh? ;-) Paul T.
Tiggerfan
brand spanking new. Particularly the strands along the plaza
restaurant and the low awnings to the left and right of city hall were
obviously new. The system looks like the old system on the outside,
but appears to be made of hi quality plastic covering. It looks very
very good during the day. Also, I was in the park last night and the
lights on main street in places look a lot better (city hall was
awful). I really do think it was the best main street has looked in
months if not years. There is a definite push to fixing things. On a
humorous note, while the front of city hall easily had 2 dozen bulbs
out, both sides running all the way to the backs of the building were
perfectly lit. Go figure.
Tiggerfan
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 01:57:23 GMT, ParrotHead <jo...@pcs-online.com>
wrote:
> mercur...@aol.com (MercuryWaxing) wrote:
>
>>>He also said the aging lighting system on
>>>Main Street is being replaced by a system that will be easier to
>>>maintain.
>>
>> Anybody know much about this?
>
> What I had heard was that the *street lights* on Main Street were
>being redesigned and replaced due to their age and the difficulty in
>getting parts for them. I asked Richard (the reporter) if this might
>have been what Vahle was talking about. Richard seemed convinced that
>this wasn't it, though, and that Vahle was actually talking about the
>decorative lightbulbs. I think Richard may be mistaken, but maybe not...
>
>___________
>ParrotHead
>http://www.wdwblues.com
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
---------------------------
mar...@my-deja.com
"Paragon" <par...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> The New-and-Improved Paragon
> Disgruntled and now with a "complete disregard for customer service"
Dear Paragon, I must have missed something. I love your posts, and I
know that you are highly thought of on this NG. What does this
mean, "and now with a 'complete disregard for customer service'? I
know that just a short while ago you won some major award from Disney,
and even though I cannot remember the specifics, I am quite sure that
it (the award) would not be given to someone with a complete disregard
for customer service. Are you being facetious, or did something bad
really happen?
Michelle
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
probably
:talking about. In a few places, we noticed what looked like completely
new
:strings of bulbs. They're white strings, very similar to the original
ones,
:and amazingly spotless. I left before it got dark, so I couldn't see
them in
:action, but I snapped pics of both the new and old strings.
:
:New bulbs-
:Plaza Restaurant: http://www.loranges.com/disney/newbulbs1.jpg
:Bathrooms near City Hall: http://www.loranges.com/disney/newbulbs2.jpg
These look like the new strings on the roofs of the GF hotel, on the
buildings that are finished.
Rşoşb
TDC Apprentice to Sorcerer Mickey & When-You-Wish-Upon-A-Star Future
Imagineer
Bring back Light Magic!
Our Home on The Hill:
http://www.freespeech.org/chickapin
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
:news:QRhG5.81201$O95.7...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
:> Paragon wrote in message ...
:> <snip>
:> :One of my "managers" decided that since Mexico Donald was no longer
:> :appearing in Mexico
:>
:> What happened? He was there just a couple of weeks ago when I came to
:> visit you.
:
:Donald is out on that character bus annoyance. Sometimes, that is
Character bus annoyance? :-/
:> <snip>
:> :The New-and-Improved Paragon
:> :Disgruntled and now with a "complete disregard for customer service"
:>
:> And from whom, pray tell, did *that* brand come???
:
:Ask me in person sometime.
Oh, THAT person?
disne...@my-deja.com
mercur...@aol.com (MercuryWaxing) wrote:
> >http://www.wdwblues.com
> >
>
> It's a great site. I don't think things are as terrible as some
people say
I just wish they would show us a copy of the picture that is not always
zoomed in so close, with the area marked of the close-up. So we can
see the building or whatever in context.
MercuryWaxing
>In the parks today you could see that some strands of lights were
>brand spanking new. Particularly the strands along the plaza
>restaurant and the low awnings to the left and right of city hall were
>obviously new. The system looks like the old system on the outside,
>but appears to be made of hi quality plastic covering. It looks very
>very good during the day.
Thank goodness. I'm not a complainer, but the old lighting always looked kinda
lousy during the day.
Mercury
joelk
joelk,
"HootDad" <hoo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8s9lek$h6l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <sufuh6b...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Fudgie" <fud...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> Which is the bigger problem here - lack of maintenance or the
> proliferation of APs allowing people to go to the parks week-in and
> week-out (or maybe day-in and day-out), ant, therefore, becoming more
> sensitive to minor flaws?
>
> > Fans say flaws make Kingdom less magical
> > By Richard Verrier
> > of the Sentinel Staff
> >
> > Published in The Orlando Sentinel on October 14, 2000
> >
> > As John Hornbuckle strolled down Main Street at Walt Disney World, he
> saw
> > something unexpected: more than two dozen burned-out lights at the
> train
> > station and atop several stores.
> >
> > For Hornbuckle, who grew up near the Magic Kingdom, such a sight was
> > inconceivable -- and embarrassing. He had just finished explaining to
> his
> > wife, Linda, how company founder Walt Disney had been so adamant about
> > keeping his California park in tip-top shape that he even insisted on
> daily
> > checks for burned-out bulbs.
> >
> > "Those little bulbs help make the park look magical, but just a few
> of them
> > being out makes it look sad and cheap," lamented Hornbuckle, 27, a
> network
> > manager who lives in Perry. "This was not the Walt Disney World I
> remember."
> >
> > Lights out. A recent photo shows burned-out bulbs at City Hall at Walt
> > Disney World. The company`s founder, Walt Disney, insisted on daily
> checks
> > for missing bulbs at his California park. It`s that attention to
> detail
> > that`s missing now, critics say. (Shoun A. Hill/Orlando Sentinel)
> > So say many other diehard Disney fans, annual pass holders who expect
> the
> > company to meet the highest standards. They contend the Magic Kingdom
> and
> > other Disney World parks risk losing some of their charm because their
> > caretakers aren`t taking care of the details.
> >
> > They cite a litany of blemishes -- from the burned-out light bulbs to
> > chipped paint on rides and torn seats on the Monorail; it is
> evidence, they
> > say, that Disney`s legendary commitment to aesthetics is slipping.
> >
> > Disney`s theme parks are still among the cleanest and best maintained
> in the
> > world. And many tourists probably don`t notice the blemishes.
> >
> > There`s no indication that the disrepair has hurt business at Disney
> World,
> > which has helped the parent company rebound from a two-year financial
> slump.
> >
> > But attention to such nit-picky details has always been a hallmark of
> > Disney, separating it from lesser competitors. And while the faults
> aren`t
> > serious, they could eventually hurt the bottom line if enough guests -
> - and
> > investors -- start to question Disney`s commitment to sustaining high
> > standards, observers say.
> >
> > "The little things add up," said Arlen Miller, who trades Disney
> > collectibles online. "If you ignore something long enough, the
> molehill
> > becomes a mountain."
> >
> > Customers, employees and union officials say the disrepair reflects a
> > shortage of custodial staff in a tight labor market and equally tight
> > company budgeting.
> >
> > That`s not so, say Disney officials.
> >
> > "The Disney legacy is in great hands," said Disney World Vice
> President Jeff
> > Vahle, who heads a team of 4,000 maintenance workers. "We are
> definitely
> > focused on making sure the property is improved every day, and that
> the
> > parks look as good today as they did five years ago."
> >
> > Obsessed with the details
> >
> > Keeping up appearances has always been paramount for Disney, echoing
> the
> > values of the company`s founder.
> >
> > Walt Disney often would walk through Disneyland, checking for anything
> > amiss, from light bulbs out to chipped horse-head hitching posts and
> dead
> > flowers. Disdainful of dirty-looking carnivals, he even objected to
> selling
> > gum, snow cones, candy apples and cotton candy at his park.
> >
> > "The whole corporate culture was based on developing and paying
> attention to
> > the small things, the attention to detail and the guest experience,"
> said
> > Steve Baker, an Orlando theme park consultant and former Disney World
> > executive. "Walt was obsessed with the details."
> >
> > And generations of Disney workers have learned in "Traditions"
> training that
> > everyone from the sweeper to the CEO must pick up trash.
> >
> > "The whole aesthetic, the look of cleanliness and upkeep is
> unbelievably
> > important for a company like Disney," said Warren Bennis, a business
> > professor at the University of Southern California. "The whole Disney
> model
> > is based on image."
> >
> > But Disney`s image is taking a few knocks from some of its most
> diehard
> > supporters, such as Hornbuckle. He developed a Web site -- Walt
> Disney World
> > Blues -- to highlight various imperfections in the theme parks. The
> site was
> > inspired by a similar one for Disneyland.
> >
> > "I get a lot of people who write to me when they come across this Web
> site,"
> > Hornbuckle said.
> >
> > He and other Disney visitors cite trash in queue lines; overflowing
> garbage
> > cans; stained buildings at Epcot; duct tape that, until recently, was
> used
> > between some seats at Star Tours at Disney-MGM Studios; and torn
> Monorail
> > seats and carpeting.
> >
> > Disney World`s street sweepers are still in evidence, but not in the
> numbers
> > of four or five years ago, said Miller, the Disney collector. "When
> you see
> > popcorn spilled on the ground, and you come back several hours later
> and
> > it`s still there, that says something," he said.
> >
> > Tampa systems analyst Jeff Carter said he was aghast during a recent
> visit
> > to the Magic Kingdom to see workers painting support beams for the
> > Tomorrowland Transit Authority in full view of park guests. "Up until
> three
> > or four years ago, all the painting would be done at night," said
> Carter,
> > 25.
> >
> > Some imperfections fixed
> >
> > Disney World, because of record-low unemployment in Central Florida,
> has not
> > been able to attract enough custodial workers to keep the parks
> clean, said
> > Mike Duffy, president of the Service Employees International Union
> Local
> > 362.
> >
> > "People are working giant amounts of overtime just to keep up. They
> are
> > woefully understaffed," Duffy said. "Our folks take great pride in
> their
> > work, and they just can`t keep the place looking the way they want to
> > because there aren`t enough people to do the work."
> >
> > One Disney employee, who asked not to be identified, said workers are
> > embarrassed about the condition of "friendship" boats at Epcot. "They
> cut
> > the money to wash the boats," the worker said. "They`re dirty; the
> windows
> > are smudged."
> >
> > Many Disney observers say such problems began to surface in the mid-
> 1990s,
> > after the death of Walt Disney Co. President Frank Wells, a strong
> advocate
> > for the theme parks and a much-respected mentor to CEO Michael Eisner.
> >
> > The focus on the bottom line, critics say, accelerated after Paul
> Pressler
> > took over the attractions division in late 1998. Although respected
> on Wall
> > Street, Pressler developed a reputation as a cost-cutter during his
> > four-year tenure as president of Disneyland in California.
> >
> > "He`s more concerned about cost issues than he is about the
> appearance of
> > the parks," said Al Lutz, co-founder of MousePlanet, a California
> company
> > that helps families plan theme-park vacations.
> >
> > Pressure to cut costs in the theme parks mounted last year after
> Disney`s
> > profit slumped 30 percent because of weak sales of videos and
> merchandise
> > and struggles at its ABC-TV network. Eisner targeted $500 million in
> annual
> > savings by 2001.
> >
> > But Disney officials say any belt-tightening has not hurt park
> upkeep. And
> > they say there is no dire shortage of custodial workers.
> >
> > "The information we`re getting from our guests is that we`ve never
> done a
> > better job," Vahle said. "We do over a million and a half work orders
> on
> > this property a year. Unfortunately, you`ll find some of that [chipped
> > paint], but you correct it as quickly as possible."
> >
> > Vahle did acknowledge some problems.
> >
> > "That`s not something we should be doing," he said of laborers
> painting in
> > sight of guests at Tomorrowland. He also said the aging lighting
> system on
> > Main Street is being replaced by a system that will be easier to
> maintain.
> >
> > And he admitted that duct tape was used on some seats at Star Tours
> to cover
> > sharp edges from cracked plastic. But that, he said, was an interim
> safety
> > measure until the ride could be refurbished.
> >
> > Disney has fixed many problems identified by Hornbuckle and others.
> Several
> > buildings on Main Street have been refurbished, as have some
> attractions,
> > including It`s a Small World, which had chipped paint on its exterior.
> >
> > But imperfections remain. Some examples at the Magic Kingdom as
> recently as
> > last week included chipped paint at Cinderella`s Golden Carousel and
> several
> > burned-out lights above City Hall.
> >
> > "It lends itself to that `wedon`t care as much` attitude," park
> visitor
> > Carter said. "You`ve got people who`ve spent thousands of dollars on
> their
> > vacations. They`re coming to a place that they picture as absolutely
> > perfect."
> >
> > Posted Oct 13 2000 10:10PM
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > ----
> >
> >
>
> --
> John Thompson AKA HootDad
> Take a 360 panorama virtual tour of Disney Vero Beach and Disneyland
> http://www.virtualescape.com/
> Thompson family Web: http://www.thompsonfamilyweb.com
joelk
were completely out on the "DANCE HALL" sign on the roof of Atlantic Dance.
The floodlighting on the cupola atop Spoodles looked like something was
missing, too.
joelk,
"Catherine L." <cat...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:#IrZkbrNAHA.66@cpmsnbbsa09...
> A few lightbulbs were out on Main Street?
> Last time I went to Pleasure Island (September 3) the huge lighted sign
read
> "Leasure Island."
>
> Sounded more like a retirement home.
>
> --
> TDC Nala, Lurker in Tropical Foliage and Fierce Protector of Castaway
Creek
> Captain of Team Kungaloosh!
> upcoming WDW trips: Nov. 2000 (offsite), Dec. 2000 (ASMo/PO), Feb 2001
> (Coronado Springs), Aug. 2001 (Swan/AKL)
>
>
>
> Fudgie wrote in message ...
Topper
<BxuG5.109742$1H2.7085834@typ
hoon.tampabay.rr.com>,
"joelk" <jo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Same thing at the Boardwalk. Half of one letter and a quarter of another
> were completely out on the "DANCE HALL" sign on the roof of Atlantic Dance.
> The floodlighting on the cupola atop Spoodles looked like something was
> missing, too.
>
> joelk,
>
> "Catherine L." <cat...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:#IrZkbrNAHA.66@cpmsnbbsa09...
> > A few lightbulbs were out on Main Street?
> > Last time I went to Pleasure Island (September 3) the huge lighted sign
> read
> > "Leasure Island."
> >
> > Sounded more like a retirement home.
> >
> > --
> > TDC Nala, Lurker in Tropical Foliage and Fierce Protector of Castaway
> Creek
>
> Captain of Team Kungaloosh!
> > upcoming WDW trips: Nov. 2000 (offsite), Dec. 2000 (ASMo/PO), Feb 2001
> > (Coronado Springs), Aug. 2001 (Swan/AKL)
But did either of you REPORT the
problems to Disney?
--
**************************
Topper
MercuryWaxing
Mercury
>Plaza Restaurant: http://www.loranges.com/disney/newbulbs1.jpg
>Bathrooms near City Hall: http://www.loranges.com/disney/newbulbs2.jpg
>
>Old Bulbs-
>Above Emporium: http://www.loranges.com/disney/oldbulbs1.jpg
>
>
Paragon
<mar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8sdgvl$92q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
I'm being facetious, kinda. Someone recently said that to me, and I think
it's funny, considering the nomination (which is all I will get) for the
award, and the other small (very small) tokens of recognition from my
managers. Some people overreact and lose all sense of reason sooner than
others. NOT that it has ever happened to *me* of course. I mean, my name
says it all.
But anyway, I have to wonder what Disney's reaction will be to the article,
if any. This budget year is really worse than the last, if my area is
anything to go by.....unless it's more a labor cut than actual maintenance
budget cuts. The money to fix the cited items should still be there, and
judging from the Millennium Celebration, Disney has *no* compunction about
transferring money from one project to another, no matter the impact on the
project.
Let me say something else that has been on my mind for the past few days.
In my little corner of the world, I notice that my shop, Plaza de los
Amigos, has not been looking too sharp. Things not stocked correctly, or at
the proper levels, or just not straightened to the level of show I think
Disney requires. I am the best floorstocker in Mexico, and I know how it
should be--trouble is, I'm not a floorstocker and haven't been for years.
It's not my job now, and I do it only when my operation requires it. I
can't do it all myself--there are not enough hours in the day (never mind I
worked 11 hours yesterday). Even the person who is supposed to floorstock
can't get to everything---she also works in the jewelry shop, and sometimes
helps the shop outside. It's just that, well, nothing seems to get done
completely. There's no time. And the God-blessed managers are not focused
on it at all. They are too busy playing with the new Deployment
computer(fixing their screw-ups), or having meetings, or working on their
projects. I can do only so much, but if the managers don't focus on the
show, there is no way it's going to get done, and be back to Disney
standards. I have to wonder how much of this problem translates to other
areas......how much is a labor problem and how much is a management problem.
Sorry. That's been bothering me all month. It's getting harder and harder
to work for Disney. My standards are now higher than theirs, and it did not
used to be that way. And I don't think it should be, either.
It has been a very frustrating couple of weeks.
ParrotHead
>In a few places, we noticed what looked like completely new
>strings of bulbs.
Those look SO much better! Can't wait to get the pictures up on the
Web site. I imagine this will help eliminate the problem with entire
strings of lights being out. But if the individual bulbs aren't
replaced as soon as they stop working, we're going to be back to square
one. I'll keep my fingers crossed!
___________
ParrotHead
http://www.wdwblues.com
Paragon
> Paragon wrote in message ...
> :The Sorcerer's Apprentice <Fant...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> :news:QRhG5.81201$O95.7...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> :> Paragon wrote in message ...
> :> <snip>
> :> :One of my "managers" decided that since Mexico Donald was no longer
> :> :appearing in Mexico
> :>
> :> What happened? He was there just a couple of weeks ago when I came to
> :> visit you.
> :
> :Donald is out on that character bus annoyance. Sometimes, that is
>
> Character bus annoyance? :-/
Sorry. It's the same reason I dislike ToN. My only experience is
encounters with them backstage. Everything wants to enter the promenade
from Mexico, so I see it all. The bus with characters is heading out to
Showcase Plaza, and all the escorts act as if they are Secret Service. Then
when they come back, they are so worried that someone will be in their way
(our pallets are right there), so if I am unloading a pallet I hear from the
advance gate person "the bus is coming through here in a couple of minutes!"
Never mind there is plenty of room for them--don't mention that they are not
even coming over the Mexico bridge yet. I understand completely that the
costumes are hot, and people need to get out of them, but c'mon. The Pope
going out every day would be less annoying.
>
> :> <snip>
> :> :The New-and-Improved Paragon
> :> :Disgruntled and now with a "complete disregard for customer service"
> :>
> :> And from whom, pray tell, did *that* brand come???
> :
> :Ask me in person sometime.
>
> Oh, THAT person?
No, another lunatic with a chemical imbalance.
disne...@my-deja.com
"Fudgie" <fud...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> I took about 200 pics today of just "stuff", construction, new paint,
old
> problems, fixed things, etc. We're pretty busy! A CM at the HM asked
why I
> was taking pictures of their new FP machines. Well, they look cool!
>
I don't want to get into the main argument of this thread, cause I tend
to give Disney more of the benifit of the doubt than many of the people
here do.
But I do agree that the new Haunted Mansion Fastpass Machine look real
cool.
Although I still think that is one ride that has no buisness having
Fastpass.
Brad
disne...@my-deja.com
tjmw...@cs.com (Tjmw2727) wrote:
> there was trash
> everywhere, definately not what I would expect from Disney!
I guess If everyone just took the time to through their trash away
instead of throwing ground or just leaving it anywhere we wouldn't have
that problem.
Randal Sheppard
"Paul T." wrote:
> In article <8scfel$gec$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ParrotHead says...
> >
> > Paul T. <pa...@tm.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Firstly, the author, Verrier, is writing from a decidedly pro-Disney
> >>point of view.
> >
> > Verrier? Pro-Disney? Trust me--neither Verrier in specific or the
> >Sentinel in general could be described as "pro-Disney."
> >
> Paul T. responds: You were being patronized by the reporter so as to nurture out
> the "fans contend quality problems". You let that patronization taint your
> reading of the article. Verriers views are spotted throughout the article.
> Here's some of HIS views:
Ummm, you're an idiot!
Sorry, had to say it. I know Parrothead and Fudgy have been a lot more logical and
kinder, but it bugs me that you're talking nonsense and feel you're an authority and
absolutely right.
> "Disney`s theme parks are still among the cleanest and best maintained in the
> world. And many tourists probably don`t notice the blemishes."
That's what Fudgy and Parrothead also say. Note that he's saying that there are
blemishes there, just that most tourists don't notice them.
> "There`s no indication that the disrepair has hurt business at Disney World,
> which has helped the parent company rebound from a two-year financial slump."
There`s no indication that the *disrepair* has hurt business at Disney World
> "...the faults aren't serious"
"And while the faults aren`t serious, they could eventually hurt the bottom line if
enough guests -- and investors -- start to question Disney`s commitment to
sustaining high standards, observers say."
He's actually giving a bit of credibility to them here again.
> "Keeping up appearances has always been paramount for Disney, echoing the values
> of the company`s founder." (note the word always, inclusive of 'now').
Symantics...
> Paul T.: You were being patronized. Reporters are supposed to sound like they
> are on your side if they want your side of the story. Understand that and it may
> help you deal with the media later.
While the fact the story wasn't an editorial prevented the author from saying 'I
agree wholeheartedly', it was a sympathetically presented article that didn't at all
show signs of exploiting anyone involved. He may or may not actually agree, but
that's really got nothing to do with whether or not the sources were patronized.
All the best,
Randal Sheppard
--
=================================================
RANDAL SHEPPARD
Melbourne, Australia
webm...@sir-cliff.com
THE SIR CLIFF RICHARD HOME PAGE
http://www.sir-cliff.com
=================================================
GREAT MOMENTS WITH MR DISNEY
"All you've got to do is own up to your ignorance
honestly, and you'll find people who are willing
to fill your head with information"
-Walt Disney
=================================================
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
<snip>
:to work for Disney. My standards are now higher than theirs, and it
did not
:used to be that way. And I don't think it should be, either.
Touché. I've had this very same discussion with my manager.
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
<snip>
:going out every day would be less annoying.
Oh, I don't know about *that*. <G>
:> Oh, THAT person?
:
:No, another lunatic with a chemical imbalance.
Mexico seems to harbor this, no?
LambyO
instead of throwing ground or just leaving it anywhere we wouldn't have that
problem.<<
How true! Our city has just passed an ordinance requiring garbage to be placed
by the curb in containers (as opposed to plastic garbage bags). Their
reasoning....to keep the animals from tearing open the bags and spilling
garbage on the sidewalks. While I agree that happens, there is much more litter
from people throwing their potato chip bags on the ground. If everyone threw
their garbage away, there would be little to no litter.
A~
This is a dark ride...........
Tjmw2727
of throwing ground or just leaving it anywhere we wouldn't have that
problem.>>>>
ITA, and did notice that there is not one trash can in the entire queue area
for this ride and it is a very long widing fenced in area.
TJ
Randal Sheppard
Fudgie wrote:
> I took about 200 pics today of just "stuff", construction, new paint, old
> problems, fixed things, etc. We're pretty busy! A CM at the HM asked why I
> was taking pictures of their new FP machines. Well, they look cool!
>
Oh please post pics of some of these things when you get a chance!
The one thing I'd really love to see is a site that gets updated regularly which
shows all the little things around WDW such as new Fastpass Machines,
refurbishments, new shops, etc. WDW Magic is ok at doing this, but Disneyland's
got both mouseplanet.com and laughingplace.com which bascially have weekly
updates of all the little bits and pieces being done around Disneyland.
I'm not suggesting you at all have the time to do this, but I've really enjoyed
your photos recently Fudgie as they seem to capture Disney World really well
(even if they are of things like peeling paint!)
HootDad
hehehe...
I remember, about 3 years ago or so I guess, posting my observation on
ADD that perhaps - just perhaps - there were reasons other than just
that "the suits are a bunch of ultra-evil money-grubbing bottom feeders
that want nothing more than to ruin the park we hold dear", that could
explain any real or perceived decline in upkeep or maintenance. Of
course, I was promptly verbally (or is it writtenly?) stoned by the
then self-appointed king of ADD as a heretic. One of my observations
was that anyone who goes to the park all the time is going to have a
more critical view, and that their view could be very different from
the casual (or one-time) guest. I then went on to question which view
was more valid.
This observation was actually backed up by some interesting pictures
that someone (I don't recall who) posted of Main Street at DL taken
during the mid-70's. In the pictures there were clearly several burned-
out bulbs - about on par with what you saw on sites set up to highlight
current maintenance problems. Of course, in the 70's, you didn't have
all those APs.
ParrotHead
>Of course, in the 70's, you didn't have all those APs.
I can't speak for DL, but at WDW I can tell you that a number of
long-time Cast Members have indicated that standards have been lowered.
And I've received supportive e-mail messages from folks who only visit
the parks once every couple of years. It's not just AP-holders who are
saying these things (but I do agree that frequent visitors are more
likely to notice the flaws).
___________
ParrotHead
http://www.wdwblues.com
Paul T.
says...
>
>>>I guess If everyone just took the time to through their trash away
>instead of throwing ground or just leaving it anywhere we wouldn't have that
>problem.<<
>
I think that the "public" has an increasing callousness towards personal
behavior and an increased desire to satisfy what will benefit them personally
the most. Not cleaning up after one's self at a food court is a good example. We
were eating at a court at Cedar Point this summer and the wife of a family began
clearing their considerable trash from their lunch-room like table. The husband
told, TOLD her to stop because that's what they have janitors for. She continued
cleaning in spite of her husbands mild objection, and then he scolded her with a
demand that she stop.
People nowadays are so wrapped up in not doing 1 calorie's worth of effort
towards anything which they can remotely identify as not being worthy of their
precious time. It turns many a folk into downright pigs.
I don't know about you guys but when we stay at All Stars, we clean up our room
prior to leaving for the day so it's not such a hard job for the maid. We
collect our trash and dispose of it, pick up all socks and clothes, put away our
grooming items, straighten the sink area, etc. And we also try to leave a
noteworthy tip. A happy maid is a happy Disney! And, if we carry that idea out
with us into the parks, then perhaps the parks and everyone else will benefit
too. I can't help but think that those who are quickest to complain about seeing
trash laying around, are the one's who are doing so because they insist "someone
else" should be picking it up. To the point that they don't even pick their own
up, they just leave it there at the lunch tables. Then if they encounter someone
elses mess, they still blame Disney probably for not cleaning it up quick
enough.
I suggest that if you see a piece of garbage, even laying on the ground, to for
heaven's sakes pick it up or have your kid pick it up since they are so close to
the ground to begin with! No one is going to convince me that there is so much
trash laying on the ground at WDW that there's too much for each of us to worry
about getting it all picked up. Paul T.
Tjmw2727
<<Paul T.
<<I can't help but think that those who are quickest to complain about seeing
trash laying around, are the one's who are doing so because they insist
"someone else" should be picking it up. To the point that they don't even pick
their own up, they just leave it there at the lunch tables. Then if they
encounter someone elses mess, they still blame Disney probably for not cleaning
it up quick
enough.>>>
Ok Paul, ftr I mentioned the trash in this thread and neither I nor my daughter
contributed - pretty big assumption. I also noticed and mentioned that there
are indeed no trash receptacles in the entire line thereby imho causing much of
the problem - definately Disney's responsibility to supply a trash can. I do
blame Disney for not cleaning it up quick enough as there was trash in that
line day after day after day.
<<<I suggest that if you see a piece of garbage, even laying on the ground, to
for heaven's sakes pick it up or have your kid pick it up since they are so
close to the ground to begin with! No one is going to convince me that there is
so much trash laying on the ground at WDW that there's too much for each of us
to worry about getting it all picked up. Paul T.>>>
I would never instruct my 4yo dd to be picking up someone elses trash,
especially since there was a. no place to properly dispose of it and b. no
where for her to wash her hands. I don't pay the prices I pay to visit Disney
to play janitor for other's nasty habits.
If you would like to spend your day picking up the queue in the Barnstormer -
enjoy.
TJ
..
disne...@my-deja.com
tjmw...@cs.com (Tjmw2727) wrote:
> >>>I guess If everyone just took the time to through their trash away
instead
> of throwing ground or just leaving it anywhere we wouldn't have that
> problem.>>>>
>
queue area
> for this ride and it is a very long widing fenced in area.
But if you would read the signs and your park maps, they say their
should be no eat drink or smoking in the queues, so if people followed
the rules, once again it would not be a problem.