A cool WDW map

[Darrell Jefress]

Someone has made the effort to depict the WDW transportation system as if it
were on a big-city map. There are a few details off, but the look is really
cool:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfstad/7117183143/sizes/z/in/photostream/

N via D

[Bob Me]

>"Darrell Jefress" wrote in message news:jv9lp6$5fm$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Wow somebody spent some time on that. It's actually very cool and is
actually very informative (I can't attest for its accuracy). Although the
designer should have indicated that the bus routes are theoretical as he
didn't include the bus randomizer (depicted as a six sided hat) that
allocates resort buses based on some formula using the number of days in the
Mayan calendar, the net air speed of an unladen swallow (European or
African), the Planck constant, and the sum of all values at every roulette
wheel in Vegas over the next hour.

-- --
Bob Me.

Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las
puertas.
To reply to me via email, remove the "spam.and.eggs." from my email address.

[Lisa Cubbon]

WDW used to publish a map similar to this one showing the transfer
points at resorts etc.

I need to print this out. We carry an ancient map in the car.

bravo to whoever did this!

Lisa

[LinLee]

>"Darrell Jefress" wrote in message
> >news:jv9lp6>$5fm$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

This is great! Thanks.

LinLee

[Darrell Jefress]

On 8/1/2012 5:45 AM, in article jvb8fs$ae$2...@dont-email.me, "Lisa Cubbon"

Keep in mind that despite its extreme coolness, it does have a few things
that are outdated or just incorrect. Just a few that I can remember -

- It shows a boat from the Contemporary to the MK that does not exist, but
omits the CR-WL-FtW boat that runs regularly
-The interconnection of the MK-area resorts via bus can vary depending on
the particular route in use on a given day, which makes the map for that
area hard to depict properly. Sometimes, for example, a Contemporary bus to
the Studios will stop at the Floridian, and sometimes not.
- The Poly-GF-MK boat route is one loop, rather than separate shuttles for
the two resorts as shown.
- There is no longer a boat from OKW to SSR.
- The bus link between Wilderness Lodge and Ft Wilderness is not shown

Still, it's mostly right, and it will make other guests think you're really
smart if they see yours. I just enjoy the pretty colors.

[Lisa Cubbon]

Exactly! The pretty colors, like a London Tube map.... I don't mind
that it's not accurate at all.

Lisa

[Rudeney]

Lisa Cubbon <cub...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On 8/1/2012 11:45 AM, Darrell Jefress wrote:
>> On 8/1/2012 5:45 AM, in article jvb8fs$ae$2...@dont-email.me, "Lisa Cubbon"
>> <cub...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/31/2012 6:21 PM, Darrell Jefress wrote:
>>>> Someone has made the effort to depict the WDW transportation system as
>>>> if it were on a big-city map. There are a few details off, but the look
>>>> is really cool:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfstad/7117183143/sizes/z/in/photostream/
>>>>
>>

>> Still, it's mostly right, and it will make other guests think you're really
>> smart if they see yours. I just enjoy the pretty colors.
>>
> Exactly! The pretty colors, like a London Tube map.... I don't mind that
> it's not accurate at all.
>

Yep, really neat and useful. Someone needs to take it and update it. It
would make a nice guidebook fold-out.


--
- Rodney

[arthur...@gmail.com]

You can find an updated version of the map here:
http://www.arthurdewolf.com/walt-disney-world-transportation-as-a-subway-map/

Most of Darrell's points should be fixed in this one.

Arthur

[Keane]

Are you a lurker here, or did you just google? :-)

There are still several anomalies that aren't accounted for on your
map or notes. These are mostly time and crowd dependent.

For instance, Port Orleans Riverside and French Quarter do not always
share a bus. During peak times, they have separate buses. Same for
All-Stars, I think. (You didn't close the loop on the internal bus
routes in POR.)

The internal buses at the resorts no longer exist. Instead, the Theme
Park buses stop at the Lobby/Food courts last. So getting on any
Theme Park bus will get you to the central complex for the resort.
The Downtown Disney bus stops at the Lobby/Food courts first, and
is the bus that delivers guests back to the resort's internal bus
stops from the main complex. (There is a chance I have that
reversed, but I don't think so.) I believe this is true for all
multi-stop resorts, including AKL. But *probably* not All-Stars,
since each resort is a stand alone resort.

There is still a shuttle between Kidani and Jambo, however.
There is also still a bus between the Grandstand and Treehouse
Villas in SSR.

You are incorrect in the bus travel direction. All buses travel in
the same direction, so generally guests do not have to cross the
street and to minimize guest confusion.

There is a sidewalk from CBR to the Crescent Lake area.

Otherwise, good job! At least until the fifth gate opens. :-)

Keane
--
This message originated on the Usenet group
rec.arts.disney.parks. See RADP.org for more info.

When stars are born, They possess a gift or two,
One of them is this, They have the power to make a wish come true...
-- Wishes Visit my site: http://keanespics.com

[Darrell Jefress]

"Keane" <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote in message
news:4rs128h5lkqvj9984...@4ax.com...

> For instance, Port Orleans Riverside and French Quarter do not always
> share a bus. During peak times, they have separate buses. Same for
> All-Stars, I think. (You didn't close the loop on the internal bus
> routes in POR.)

Arthur has mentioned elsewhere that resorts sharing the same line is
something that had to be sacrificed to keep the map readable. As you noted,
it's dependent on lots of factors. This is especially the case in the MK
area, where different combinations of the Floridian, Poly, Contemporary, and
Wilderness Lodge may all share buses at certain times.

>
> The internal buses at the resorts no longer exist. Instead, the Theme
> Park buses stop at the Lobby/Food courts last. So getting on any
> Theme Park bus will get you to the central complex for the resort.
> The Downtown Disney bus stops at the Lobby/Food courts first, and
> is the bus that delivers guests back to the resort's internal bus
> stops from the main complex. (There is a chance I have that
> reversed, but I don't think so.) I believe this is true for all
> multi-stop resorts, including AKL. But *probably* not All-Stars,
> since each resort is a stand alone resort.

Caribbean Beach still, as far as I know, has an internal loop at some times.
But I haven't stayed there in a while so there could have been a recent
change. At the All-Stars, I know of no pattern as to when an incoming bus
will or will not stop at more than one. Once a bus leaves Movies, I've never
seen one stop at Sports or Music on the way out. So there isn't even a
quasi-internal loop there.

> There is a sidewalk from CBR to the Crescent Lake area.

Sorta. There's definitely a sidewalk from the fire station to Crescent
Lake, but unless things have changes recently, you have to walk through
landscaping or other areas not designed for pedestrian access to get to the
walkway from CBR.

The intereesting thing about Arthur's map is that although the information
he's provided is not new, he's presented in a way that just looks so
ultra-cool. Almost makes me want to play another game of bus roulette the
next time I'm there without my wife.

Nicholas via Darrell

[Jeffrey Gordon]

In article <jvrhrk$jnd$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

"Darrell Jefress" <eve...@tokyo.com> wrote:

>
> Caribbean Beach still, as far as I know, has an internal loop at some times.
> But I haven't stayed there in a while so there could have been a recent
> change. At the All-Stars, I know of no pattern as to when an incoming bus
> will or will not stop at more than one. Once a bus leaves Movies, I've never
> seen one stop at Sports or Music on the way out. So there isn't even a
> quasi-internal loop there.

I'm also pretty sure that AS:S is completely on its own for all park
busses unless it's a REALLY slow day, whereas AS:Mo and AS:Mu are almost
always on the same loop.

>
> The intereesting thing about Arthur's map is that although the information
> he's provided is not new, he's presented in a way that just looks so
> ultra-cool. Almost makes me want to play another game of bus roulette the
> next time I'm there without my wife.

Agreed... and I'm trying to encourage him to get a printed version
released. :)

~Jeff
TDC Experiment 626 and Guardian of Stitch Kingdom

[Darrell Jefress]

"Jeffrey Gordon" <je...@jeffreygordon.net> wrote in message
news:jeff-7774C2.1...@news.giganews.com...

> Agreed... and I'm trying to encourage him to get a printed version
> released. :)

I had suggested he contact a couple of the guidebook writers to see if they
might want to buy the rights.

[Jeffrey Gordon]

In article <jvrsv0$h3s$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

That's not a bad idea. He could license it out.

But I think he could simply sell a foldable map and a wall map on his
own. For me, it's really art. I want it huge on my wall. I don't need
the map as a functional item. :)

[Keane]

On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:05:11 -0700, "Darrell Jefress"
<eve...@tokyo.com> wrote:

>
>
>"Keane" <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote in message
>news:4rs128h5lkqvj9984...@4ax.com...

>> The internal buses at the resorts no longer exist. Instead, the Theme
>> Park buses stop at the Lobby/Food courts last. So getting on any
>> Theme Park bus will get you to the central complex for the resort.
>> The Downtown Disney bus stops at the Lobby/Food courts first, and
>> is the bus that delivers guests back to the resort's internal bus
>> stops from the main complex. (There is a chance I have that
>> reversed, but I don't think so.) I believe this is true for all
>> multi-stop resorts, including AKL. But *probably* not All-Stars,
>> since each resort is a stand alone resort.
>
>Caribbean Beach still, as far as I know, has an internal loop at some times.
>But I haven't stayed there in a while so there could have been a recent
>change.

I stayed at CSR, POR and SSR last year, I don't recall *any* internal
busses left, except for the Grandstand/Treehouse Villa bus.

>> There is a sidewalk from CBR to the Crescent Lake area.
>
>Sorta. There's definitely a sidewalk from the fire station to Crescent
>Lake,

The walkway starts across the street from CBR, with a marked
crosswalk.

> but unless things have changes recently, you have to walk through
>landscaping or other areas not designed for pedestrian access to get to the
>walkway from CBR.

There's at least one RADP'er who walks it. The sidewalk is also
maintanined, and there is even a walk/don't walk sign from the CBR
side.

You're either going to have an accurate map, or not. If you're
going to include that obscure walkway between CSR and All-Stars...

[Rudeney]

Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:05:11 -0700, "Darrell Jefress"
> <eve...@tokyo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Keane" <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote in message
>> news:4rs128h5lkqvj9984...@4ax.com...
>
>

>>> There is a sidewalk from CBR to the Crescent Lake area.
>>
>> Sorta. There's definitely a sidewalk from the fire station to Crescent
>> Lake,
>
> The walkway starts across the street from CBR, with a marked
> crosswalk.
>
>> but unless things have changes recently, you have to walk through
>> landscaping or other areas not designed for pedestrian access to get to the
>> walkway from CBR.
>
> There's at least one RADP'er who walks it. The sidewalk is also
> maintanined, and there is even a walk/don't walk sign from the CBR
> side.
>
> You're either going to have an accurate map, or not. If you're
> going to include that obscure walkway between CSR and All-Stars...

You are correct, there is a pedestrian crosswalk with a signal, but once
you get across to the corner oft he CBR property, there is no more
sidewalk. Your choices are to walk on grass alongside the road, then cut
through grass and some trees to get to the CBR internal roadways. It could
be completed into a real walking route with the addition of a paved route
from the corner into CBR, but as it is now, it's not. Honestly, I don't
know why Disney wouldn't go ahead and complete the sidewalk, but as it is,
I wouldn't put it on the map, just like I wouldn't put an unpaved "ad-hoc"
cut through road on a GPS map for a car.


--
- Rodney

[Darrell Jefress]

"Rudeney" <rud...@mickeypics.com> wrote in message
news:1834084650366126145.5814...@news.eternal-september.org...

> You are correct, there is a pedestrian crosswalk with a signal, but once
> you get across to the corner oft he CBR property, there is no more
> sidewalk. Your choices are to walk on grass alongside the road, then cut
> through grass and some trees to get to the CBR internal roadways. It
> could
> be completed into a real walking route with the addition of a paved route
> from the corner into CBR, but as it is now, it's not. Honestly, I don't
> know why Disney wouldn't go ahead and complete the sidewalk, but as it is,
> I wouldn't put it on the map, just like I wouldn't put an unpaved "ad-hoc"
> cut through road on a GPS map for a car.

I took a look at the overhead photos from Bing - it really is a "crosswalk
to nowhere", as once you get to the CBR side, there's no intended
destination. Nothing paved or otherwise marked, though obviously it is easy
enough to walk over to Jamaica. That's probably the difference between this
walkway and the one by Coronado Springs - the latter has a
clearly-discernible and intended destination at each end.

[Rudeney]

Also interesting is to look at the sidewalk across BV from there. It also
dead ends at the RCID fire station driveway. Of course at that point, if
going to the fire station, one could walk up the road to the parking lot,
but I guess you could argue the same point with the CBR side of the street,
i.e. you could walk down Victory Lane to CBR's driveway. The only
difference is that the fire station driveway is just that - a short
driveway into a parking lot, like going into the Hess station. Walking to
CBR requires either walking on the grass or a public street. And of course
my question is, why not finish these sidewalks? It makes me wonder if
maybe Disney does not want guests walking here, but because people were
doing it anyhow, the coun (who now owns the roads) did it for safety, but
didn't connect to any Disney private property.

--
- Rodney

[arthur...@gmail.com]

I published a new version of the map:
http://www.arthurdewolf.com/walt-disney-world-transportation-as-a-subway-map/

Changes:
- All-Star Sports is now split from Music and Movies
- Notes about Bay Lake boats and Port Orleans resorts updated
- Seven Seas Lagoon monorails fixed (were going in wrong way)

Keane wrote:
> Are you a lurker here, or did you just google? :-)

Jeffrey actually sent me a link to this thread.

> There is a sidewalk from CBR to the Crescent Lake area.

What do you mean with the Crescent Lake area?

>> The Downtown Disney bus stops at the Lobby/Food courts first, and
is the bus that delivers guests back to the resort's internal bus
stops from the main complex. (There is a chance I have that
reversed, but I don't think so.)

I think this may be different at different resorts. I believe that at Riverside the Downtown Disney bus stops at the lobby (South Depot) last, while the theme park buses stop there first and go around the resort before heading out. I've read this in a few places and it was like this when I went there a few months ago to check it out.

But at Old Key West it looks to be different, with theme park buses stopping at Hospitality House last. It also says at http://allears.net/acc/faq_okw.htm that the Downtown Disney bus at Old Key West stops at the lobby on its way in AND out.

Jeffrey wrote:
> I'm also pretty sure that AS:S is completely on its own for all park
busses unless it's a REALLY slow day, whereas AS:Mo and AS:Mu are almost always on the same loop.

I have split it on the map. When I took this bus a few months ago it DID stop at Sports, then Music, then Movies ... but I guess that was a very slow day.

Thanks,
Arthur

[Rudeney]

<arthur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>.
>
>> There is a sidewalk from CBR to the Crescent Lake area.
>
> What do you mean with the Crescent Lake area?

Crescent Lake is the proper name of the body of water surrounded by the
Epcot resorts (BW, BC, YC, Swolphin) andbetween Epcot and DHS.

>
>>> The Downtown Disney bus stops at the Lobby/Food courts first, and
> is the bus that delivers guests back to the resort's internal bus
> stops from the main complex. (There is a chance I have that
> reversed, but I don't think so.)
>
> I think this may be different at different resorts. I believe that at
> Riverside the Downtown Disney bus stops at the lobby (South Depot) last,
> while the theme park buses stop there first and go around the resort
> before heading out. I've read this in a few places and it was like this
> when I went there a few months ago to check it out.
>
> But at Old Key West it looks to be different, with theme park buses
> stopping at Hospitality House last. It also says at
> http://allears.net/acc/faq_okw.htm that the Downtown Disney bus at Old
> Key West stops at the lobby on its way in AND out.
>

I don't know how it works now as it has been some years since we stayed
there, but the OKW buses used to stop at the main lobby building bothing
comng and going. Sometimes if entering the resort, if the driver saw no
guests waiting there, he would ask guests on the bus if anyone needed that
stop, and if not, he would skip it.



--
- Rodney

[jt august]

In article <jvb6bv$lc1$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Bob Me" <spamandeg...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> Wow somebody spent some time on that. It's actually very cool and is
> actually very informative (I can't attest for its accuracy). Although the
> designer should have indicated that the bus routes are theoretical as he
> didn't include the bus randomizer (depicted as a six sided hat) that
> allocates resort buses based on some formula using the number of days in the
> Mayan calendar, the net air speed of an unladen swallow (European or
> African), the Planck constant, and the sum of all values at every roulette
> wheel in Vegas over the next hour.

Which brings me to my query, which I was thinking about earlier:

Back in the time frame I took my family to Disney, I read much in the
way of complaints and critisism about Disney busses, and there were
articles in the news periodically about Disney bus incedents, including
the guest who decked a driver.

I don't recall seeing the complaint posts of recent. Does this mean
Disney pulled their hand out of the sand, or is their damage control
machine just doing its job better?

jt

[Shawn K]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:04:50 -0500, jt august <star...@att.net>
wrote:

>
>Which brings me to my query, which I was thinking about earlier:
>
>Back in the time frame I took my family to Disney, I read much in the
>way of complaints and critisism about Disney busses, and there were
>articles in the news periodically about Disney bus incedents, including
>the guest who decked a driver.
>
>I don't recall seeing the complaint posts of recent. Does this mean
>Disney pulled their hand out of the sand, or is their damage control
>machine just doing its job better?
>
>jt

When my dad and I were down there in '09 and '10 (2 weeks at a time),
they had people at the bus stops frequently (we stay at CBR, which is
were I always stay).

It was always funny to us because the one bus we wanted, was always
the last bus we saw. We made a game out of it when we left the room,
and sometimes changed our destination based on the busses (Screw it,
lets just get on this bus). But I knew where to go at the last minute.

When the CMs were there, our bus showed up quickly (of course, and
we'd be the only 2 left standing).

Worst I ever saw was waiting at MK to get a bus back to CBR (I think
'10). EVERY bus queue was empty EXCEPT the CBR line. 30-40+ people
waiting. We waited forever and were at the end of the line. A Coronado
bus finally showed up, with no one in line. I told him lets go, we got
on it went to CSR and were on an AK bus within minutes, and connected
to a CBR bus not long after.

Been down there 20'ish times, never had a problem like that.

Well out of our way, Im just glad I knew the bus system (to get us
closer at least), and where I could get and when I could get there. We
must've stood in line it seemed like 30 minutes or more. NEVER had
that happen.

Will be down there in a few weeks for another 2 weeks. Dont expect it
to be great, but hopefully better. I know it's hard to be perfect
shuttling so many people a day around, but maybe they've learned some
things.

[Steve Russo]

On 8/11/2012 5:06 AM, Shawn K wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:04:50 -0500, jt august <star...@att.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Which brings me to my query, which I was thinking about earlier:
>>
>> Back in the time frame I took my family to Disney, I read much in the
>> way of complaints and critisism about Disney busses, and there were
>> articles in the news periodically about Disney bus incedents, including
>> the guest who decked a driver.
>>
>> I don't recall seeing the complaint posts of recent. Does this mean
>> Disney pulled their hand out of the sand, or is their damage control
>> machine just doing its job better?
>>
>> jt
>
> When my dad and I were down there in '09 and '10 (2 weeks at a time),
> they had people at the bus stops frequently (we stay at CBR, which is
> were I always stay).
>
> It was always funny to us because the one bus we wanted, was always
> the last bus we saw.

Ummmm...


--
Steve

[Patty Winter]

In article <k05qpq$jr4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Steve Russo <sru...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>On 8/11/2012 5:06 AM, Shawn K wrote:

[unneeded quotage snipped]

>> It was always funny to us because the one bus we wanted, was always
>> the last bus we saw.
>
>Ummmm...

:-) Yeah, I read it the same way the first time. :-) Sort of like,
"I always find my car keys the last place I looked." :-)

But I'm sure that Shawn meant, "Buses for all the other destinations
always showed up before the one we needed."


Patty

[Steve Russo]

I'm sure that's what he meant but, in true RADP fashion, we get to pick
on what he wrote. ;-)

--
Steve

[Rudeney]

jt august <star...@att.net> wrote:
>
> Back in the time frame I took my family to Disney, I read much in the
> way of complaints and critisism about Disney busses, and there were
> articles in the news periodically about Disney bus incedents, including
> the guest who decked a driver.
>
> I don't recall seeing the complaint posts of recent. Does this mean
> Disney pulled their hand out of the sand, or is their damage control
> machine just doing its job better?

They have tried all sorts of things, and I think it has gotten somewhat
better. I know in the old days, each bus had a route and that was it.
Then they went to Bus on Demand where CMs would stand at resort stops and
ask guests their destinations, and send that info back to dispatch where
some magical algorithm was use to supposedly provide buses faster than them
must running in loops. They don't use CMs at the bus stops anymore, but I
think the drivers send back real time data on how many guests board and how
often they make stops and how many guests are left waiting for another bus
and gets used in place of the Bus on Demand data. i do know that they have
CMs watch the theme park pickups and they will change routes on incoming
buses when they see large lines for one resort.

I will relate a story that happened to us once leaving MGM (that's what it
was called then) to return to our resort (I don't recall which one, but it
was a deluxe, maybe AKL). It was in the middle of the day and we had waited
at least 30 minutes and the crowd was growing in size and frustration.
Every other resort had already seen two or more buses come and go.
Finally, after almost an hour of waiting, we see two buses coming labeled
for our resort. When they stopped, we understood the delay. Both buses
were full of children in wheelchairs with a special tour group. It took
another 15 minutes to unload them, but seeing those disabled children happy
and smiling made us totally forget our minor inconvenience. And that's my
worst WDW bus story. Most of the time, I count on a 20-30 minute wait, and
most of the time it is much less than that.


--
- Rodney

[Keane]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:04:50 -0500, jt august <star...@att.net>
wrote:

There is always a story or two of bad bus service, but for the most
part, I'm not sure most of the incidents were Disney's fault. Anyone
who's ridden a lot of a mass transit bus system knows there are
just times when bus services sucks...

What Disney has gotten better at, is communications. Both between
Resort Transportation CM's and Central Dispatch (or whatever they're
called), and the waiting guests.

At CSR one morning, we were going someplace (not bus roulette). A
CM asked us where we were going, and she told us the bus would be
there in 15 minutes.

Well, it *was* 15 minutes, and it's hard to complain about the wait
when you're told how long it was going to take...

Another time in the same trip (we had a preferred room, and was
at the man complex's bus stop, which is the last bus stop in the CSR
loop), the bus came mostly full, and those of us waiting (for a
while), couldn't get on. They had another empty bus to pick us up
within a minute or two (and it was the only stop in CSR the bus made)
and delivered us to the park. It might have been the same trip we had
a rousing rendtion of "The wheels on the bus goes round and round"...

Both times were at a park opening.

But you always seem to get the had-to-wait-45-minutes stories. I'm
sure if you average the wait over your entire trip, it comes to far
less than the 20 minute claimed time...

[Rudeney]

Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
>
> Another time in the same trip (we had a preferred room, and was
> at the man complex's bus stop,

So no women allowed there, huh?


--
- Rodney

[Debbi]

On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
> [Bus Service Issues]

> They have tried all sorts of things, and I think it has gotten somewhat
> better. I know in the old days, each bus had a route and that was it.
> Then they went to Bus on Demand where CMs would stand at resort stops and
> ask guests their destinations, and send that info back to dispatch where
> some magical algorithm was use to supposedly provide buses faster than them
> must running in loops. They don't use CMs at the bus stops anymore, but I
> think the drivers send back real time data on how many guests board and how
> often they make stops and how many guests are left waiting for another bus
> and gets used in place of the Bus on Demand data.

There are cameras at almost every bus stop now, taking the place of the
CMs (monitored by CMs at dispatch). The Parks are still on the 'manual'
system but are being fitted for the same system as we usenet.

But I have to say that the entire program is a mess. Many of the
promises made by the original software vendor have never come to
fruition and even the hardware has turned out to be very much less than
reliable. Add to that some mistakes on our own IT department's part and
a few political battles and what do you get ? A mess.

I remember several years ago when I was involved in the property wide
planning of this 'next-gen transportation system'. There were going to
be automated signs and automated routing(s), camera's that could
estimate crowd sizes and such, and lots of GPS help to make it all play
together.

At this point I'm (sadly) betting that Hyperion Wharf will be finished
before the complete solution to the bus system is.

ab

[Keane]

You didn't hear that CSR is segregated by sex now? The
woman complex is on the other side of the lake.

(Can't make a single leeeetle mistake...)

[Keane]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:01:50 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:

>On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
>> [Bus Service Issues]
>> They have tried all sorts of things, and I think it has gotten somewhat
>> better. I know in the old days, each bus had a route and that was it.
>> Then they went to Bus on Demand where CMs would stand at resort stops and
>> ask guests their destinations, and send that info back to dispatch where
>> some magical algorithm was use to supposedly provide buses faster than them
>> must running in loops. They don't use CMs at the bus stops anymore, but I
>> think the drivers send back real time data on how many guests board and how
>> often they make stops and how many guests are left waiting for another bus
>> and gets used in place of the Bus on Demand data.
>
>There are cameras at almost every bus stop now, taking the place of the
>CMs (monitored by CMs at dispatch). The Parks are still on the 'manual'
>system but are being fitted for the same system as we usenet.

As we usenet? ;-)

So.... The obvious follow-up question from someone like me...
How's Disney's facial recognition software doing these days? ;-)

>But I have to say that the entire program is a mess. Many of the
>promises made by the original software vendor have never come to
>fruition and even the hardware has turned out to be very much less than
>reliable. Add to that some mistakes on our own IT department's part and
>a few political battles and what do you get ? A mess.

I have witnessed many a project fail due to over complexity; lack of
foresight or planning; and the lack of specific specifications or
expectations.

IOW, it's always so easy to do on paper. The real world steps in when
you have to do it in the real world, and a lot of promises go
unfulfilled...

>I remember several years ago when I was involved in the property wide
>planning of this 'next-gen transportation system'. There were going to
>be automated signs and automated routing(s), camera's that could
>estimate crowd sizes and such, and lots of GPS help to make it all play
>together.

I remember being duly impressed you were going to real-time
the transportation system. Having to track every single piece of
moving transportation over non-linear roads to every single
transportation stop is a pretty complex task...

I had a friend that was doing some real-time software for United
at DIA (Denver's airport). Unrelated to his work, they were going to
have this great automated luggage system. You put a bag on a cart,
and the cart was supposed to know where it was supposed to go to
deliver the luggage.

Problem was, some of the carts never made it to their destination.
He said they'd find bunches of carts huddled together someplace
where they shouldn't have been. They never figured it out. DIA has
a more traditional luggage sorting system now...

>At this point I'm (sadly) betting that Hyperion Wharf will be finished
>before the complete solution to the bus system is.
>
>ab

So, it *is* still Hyperion Wharf? I was being questioned on that...

[Rudeney]

Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
> On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
>> [Bus Service Issues]
>> They have tried all sorts of things, and I think it has gotten somewhat
>> better. I know in the old days, each bus had a route and that was it.
>> Then they went to Bus on Demand where CMs would stand at resort stops and
>> ask guests their destinations, and send that info back to dispatch where
>> some magical algorithm was use to supposedly provide buses faster than them
>> must running in loops. They don't use CMs at the bus stops anymore, but I
>> think the drivers send back real time data on how many guests board and how
>> often they make stops and how many guests are left waiting for another bus
>> and gets used in place of the Bus on Demand data.
>
> There are cameras at almost every bus stop now, taking the place of the
> CMs (monitored by CMs at dispatch).

Oh, I thought the cameras were deter people from necking at the bus stops.
:-)

> The Parks are still on the 'manual' system but are being fitted for the
> same system as we usenet.

What? You are going to run the buses on NNTP protocol? Does that mean
RADP will have special access? ;-)

> But I have to say that the entire program is a mess. Many of the promises
> made by the original software vendor have never come to fruition and even
> the hardware has turned out to be very much less than reliable. Add to
> that some mistakes on our own IT department's part and a few political
> battles and what do you get ? A mess.
>

Gee, I'm glad to hear Disney IT is no different than the rest of the world!
If I had a dollar for every time I dealt with software vendor's empty
promises and internal management politics keeping these failed projects
going, well, I could buy you a really nice dinner.

> I remember several years ago when I was involved in the property wide
> planning of this 'next-gen transportation system'. There were going to be
> automated signs and automated routing(s), camera's that could estimate
> crowd sizes and such, and lots of GPS help to make it all play together.
>
> At this point I'm (sadly) betting that Hyperion Wharf will be finished
> before the complete solution to the bus system is.

That's too bad. It really doesn't seem like it would be that complicated.
GPS tells you where the buses are, you know the routes and average travel
times, cameras count crowds at stops, drivers give feedback of how many
board and exit, factor in the number of people in wheelchairs, scooters and
strollers, and a simple bit of math tells you how long it will take for a
bus to arrive and if it can carry everyone in the crowd. When that wait
time exceeds the standard, you dispatch more buses or redirect buses from
routes with no waiting guests. I could probably have this spec'ed out in a
matter of weeks. Sheesh!


--
- Rodney

[Rudeney]

Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 15:42:24 +0000 (UTC), Rudeney
> <rud...@mickeypics.com> wrote:
>
>> Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Another time in the same trip (we had a preferred room, and was
>>> at the man complex's bus stop,
>>
>>
>> So no women allowed there, huh?
>
> You didn't hear that CSR is segregated by sex now? The
> woman complex is on the other side of the lake.
>
> (Can't make a single leeeetle mistake...)
>

Oh, you can make them. In fact, keep it up - we something to amuse us
around here. :-)

--
- Rodney

[Bob Me]

Including obvious grammatical mistakes.

--
Bob Me.

Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las
puertas.
To reply to me via email, remove the "spam.and.eggs." from my email address.

[Bob Me]

On 8/14/2012 2:33 PM, Keane wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:01:50 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
>>> [Bus Service Issues]
>>> They have tried all sorts of things, and I think it has gotten somewhat
>>> better. I know in the old days, each bus had a route and that was it.
>>> Then they went to Bus on Demand where CMs would stand at resort stops and
>>> ask guests their destinations, and send that info back to dispatch where
>>> some magical algorithm was use to supposedly provide buses faster than them
>>> must running in loops. They don't use CMs at the bus stops anymore, but I
>>> think the drivers send back real time data on how many guests board and how
>>> often they make stops and how many guests are left waiting for another bus
>>> and gets used in place of the Bus on Demand data.
>>
>> There are cameras at almost every bus stop now, taking the place of the
>> CMs (monitored by CMs at dispatch). The Parks are still on the 'manual'
>> system but are being fitted for the same system as we usenet.
>
> As we usenet? ;-)
>
> So.... The obvious follow-up question from someone like me...
> How's Disney's facial recognition software doing these days? ;-)
>

Hey, look at the guy in the Goofy mask.

That's no mask.

Oh, sorry lady.


Above results from facial recognition software version 1.0 (beta).

[Lisa Cubbon]

On 8/14/2012 2:36 PM, Rudeney wrote:

It has been pretty boring around here. I tried to start something and
got nowhere.... (damn. I just corrected my OWN typo!)

Lisa

[Lisa Cubbon]

Oh I remember when that was starting to roll out. Playing nice in the
sandbox is a delicate art that many never learn, sadly.

>
> At this point I'm (sadly) betting that Hyperion Wharf will be finished
> before the complete solution to the bus system is.

Well, it will be something, right? But please, what is Hyperion
Wharf? I don't remember what that's about.

Lisa
>
> ab
>

[Keane]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:26:36 -0400, Lisa Cubbon <cub...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
>Well, it will be something, right? But please, what is Hyperion
>Wharf? I don't remember what that's about.
>

The spit of land formerly known as Pleasure Island...

[Steve Russo]

http://www.mouseplanet.com/9456/Hyperion_Wharf

Note that this was published some 30+ months ago.


--
Steve

[Debbi]

On 8/14/2012 2:33 PM, Keane wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:01:50 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>
>> There are cameras at almost every bus stop now, taking the place of the
>> CMs (monitored by CMs at dispatch). The Parks are still on the 'manual'
>> system but are being fitted for the same system as we usenet.
>
> As we usenet? ;-)

I meant that in the context of ... 'as we speak'. I guess phrases like
that haven't made it into the urban dictionary yet. I am updating the
PC. 'as we google'. I am updating the PS, 'as we facebook'. I am
updating the PC, 'as we twitter' (not to be confused with doing #2).

ab
(excuse me for a few minutes, I have to go twitter ...)

[Rudeney]

Eeew! I will never again hear the phrase "follow me on Twitter" and not
think of this! :-p


--
- Rodney

[Debbi]

On 8/14/2012 2:33 PM, Keane wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:01:50 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>
> So.... The obvious follow-up question from someone like me...
> How's Disney's facial recognition software doing these days? ;-)

Obvious why ?

I had better not be too specific but let's just say that what we have
been testing rivals most Las Vegas casinos. The whole new 'deep'
security thing around here is another book just waiting to be written.

>> But I have to say <snip>

> I have witnessed many a project fail due to over complexity; lack of
> foresight or planning; and the lack of specific specifications or
> expectations.

As always, they should have given me the whole project. My success rate
is pretty good (as long as we don't include those tiny, little pyro
goof-ups, which reminds me - did you see the footage of the 7/4
fireworks in San Diego ? Could have used me there too ... but I digress)

> I had a friend that was doing some real-time software for United
> at DIA (Denver's airport). Unrelated to his work, they were going to
> have this great automated luggage system. You put a bag on a cart,
> and the cart was supposed to know where it was supposed to go to
> deliver the luggage.
>
> Problem was, some of the carts never made it to their destination.
> He said they'd find bunches of carts huddled together someplace
> where they shouldn't have been. They never figured it out. DIA has
> a more traditional luggage sorting system now...

I read about that. Sometimes I read about software that simply blows my
socks off (when I wear them, which is rare) and then I wonder what could
have been so hard about routing a bunch of luggage ?

> So, it *is* still Hyperion Wharf? I was being questioned on that...

Who knows ? Another mess that has changed hands more times than a
newborn baby at a family gathering. We still call it that and the legal
papers that were filed are still valid so until that changes, Hyperion
Wharf it is !

ab

[Debbi]

On 8/14/2012 2:35 PM, Rudeney wrote:
> Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>> On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
>
>> But I have to say that the entire program is a mess. Many of the promises
>> made by the original software vendor have never come to fruition and even
>> the hardware has turned out to be very much less than reliable. Add to
>> that some mistakes on our own IT department's part and a few political
>> battles and what do you get ? A mess.
>
> Gee, I'm glad to hear Disney IT is no different than the rest of the world!
> If I had a dollar for every time I dealt with software vendor's empty
> promises and internal management politics keeping these failed projects
> going, well, I could buy you a really nice dinner.

I'm going to hold you to that promise ... one of these days !

> It really doesn't seem like it would be that complicated.
> GPS tells you where the buses are, you know the routes and average travel
> times, cameras count crowds at stops, drivers give feedback of how many
> board and exit, factor in the number of people in wheelchairs, scooters and
> strollers, and a simple bit of math tells you how long it will take for a
> bus to arrive and if it can carry everyone in the crowd. When that wait
> time exceeds the standard, you dispatch more buses or redirect buses from
> routes with no waiting guests. I could probably have this spec'ed out in a
> matter of weeks. Sheesh!

My thoughts exactly. But there's more to the story than just the
technical side, that I can't get into here. Let's just say that
sometimes when a system fails, it pushes a company to move on to bigger
solutions.

ab

[Rudeney]

Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
> On 8/14/2012 2:35 PM, Rudeney wrote:
>> Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
>>
>>> But I have to say that the entire program is a mess. Many of the promises
>>> made by the original software vendor have never come to fruition and even
>>> the hardware has turned out to be very much less than reliable. Add to
>>> that some mistakes on our own IT department's part and a few political
>>> battles and what do you get ? A mess.
>>
>> Gee, I'm glad to hear Disney IT is no different than the rest of the world!
>> If I had a dollar for every time I dealt with software vendor's empty
>> promises and internal management politics keeping these failed projects
>> going, well, I could buy you a really nice dinner.
>
> I'm going to hold you to that promise ... one of these days !

Well, I did say "*if* I had a dollar..." but you know what? I'd you a nice
dinner anyhow.

>> It really doesn't seem like it would be that complicated.
>> GPS tells you where the buses are, you know the routes and average travel
>> times, cameras count crowds at stops, drivers give feedback of how many
>> board and exit, factor in the number of people in wheelchairs, scooters and
>> strollers, and a simple bit of math tells you how long it will take for a
>> bus to arrive and if it can carry everyone in the crowd. When that wait
>> time exceeds the standard, you dispatch more buses or redirect buses from
>> routes with no waiting guests. I could probably have this spec'ed out in a
>> matter of weeks. Sheesh!
>
> My thoughts exactly. But there's more to the story than just the
> technical side, that I can't get into here. Let's just say that sometimes
> when a system fails, it pushes a company to move on to bigger solutions.
>

Hmm, in my experiences, when a system fails, people get fired and the new
people come in and screw it up almost as bad, but since it's marginally
better they are praised for saving the day. And that's OK because so many
individual successes in life are just a matter of being in the right place
at the right time. I believe long term systemic success is only attained
with proper vision and planning, but also being dynamic so as to adapt to
changing environments. i think the most important phrase anyone can utter
is, "i was wrong about that, but I learned something and We can apply that
to the new solution."


--
- Rodney

[Keane]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:13:14 -0400, Steve Russo <sru...@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:

Gee, you sound surprised that Disney would try to
sell you something in Downtown Disney... :-)

I can see why things are moving slowly. Disney had to
get rid of the memorabilia place in West Side, and completely
rebuild it for Harley-Davidson. Harley-Davidson has finally
been moved out into West Side as of my last visit, so I suspect
something will be happening there soon. Or now, for all I know.

It could very well end up looking like West side, where the
stores are on the parking lot side, and the restaurants and other
guest areas on the lake. I remember going into a few of the stores
when PiC needed a pair of sun glasses. All trendy places I normally
don't visit. :-)

There are a couple of nice places along the lake in West Side, but you
never see a lot of guests there. I wouldn't hurt to jazz an open area
in HW. Might be interesting to see from SSR, but Disney can't make
it that loud without bothering the guests at SSR...

[Keane]

A bit early to be drinking, isn't it?

Talking about dictionaries, did anyone see that F-Bomb made the cut?

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP7ed511c06928446db3d39d9c2d1e94a1.html

[Rudeney]

Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
>
> Talking about dictionaries, did anyone see that F-Bomb made the cut?
>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/AP7ed511c06928446db3d39d9c2d1e94a1.html

Yeah, I not really too excited about that because it really isn't a "word"
but part of a slang phrase, as in, "I couldn't believe that she dropped the
f-bomb right there in the lobby of the Grand Floridian." It pretty much has
to be "dropped" or else it doesn't make sense. For example, take the
phrase, "They just totally f-bombed up when they decided to close that
attraction and replace it with a plush shop.". It just doesn't sound right.
And can you imagine what would happen if a frustrated taxi driver in
traffic at JFK airport were to yell, "Hey, f-bomb you, you f-bombing idiot!
You can't f-bombing drive!". Yes, the TSA and Homeland Security would
yank his f-bombing butt right out of that cab and have strip searched and
sent to Guantanamo in no time (remember, you can't say bomb at the
airport). I just don't think this is going to work. besides, why use a
hyphenated $10 word when a perfectly good,cheap four-letter word will do.
:-)


--
- Rodney

[Keane]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:02:53 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:

>On 8/14/2012 2:33 PM, Keane wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:01:50 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>>
>> So.... The obvious follow-up question from someone like me...
>> How's Disney's facial recognition software doing these days? ;-)
>
>Obvious why ?

I will even say this time I don't think it's about guest tracking.
It really is about transportation requirements. But it has to be a
boon for Disney Security too. I mean the dives to the Titanic
was perfect cover for another operation too...

>I had better not be too specific but let's just say that what we have
>been testing rivals most Las Vegas casinos. The whole new 'deep'
>security thing around here is another book just waiting to be written.

I know Disney is waaaay secretive about security, but I can only
guess. And don't say anytime more, 'cause Mickey'll get hackled.

Years ago I had always wondered how in the world they'd be able
to prevent a banned-for-lifer from getting back on resort property,
but that was years ago... Now it's so doable, it's frightening.

Even my G12 has the ability to recognize a half-dozen faces in frame
and will allow me to focus on any one of those faces. Some refinement
and I bet it comes close to a fingerprint...

>>> But I have to say <snip>
>
>> I have witnessed many a project fail due to over complexity; lack of
>> foresight or planning; and the lack of specific specifications or
>> expectations.
>
>As always, they should have given me the whole project. My success rate
>is pretty good (as long as we don't include those tiny, little pyro
>goof-ups, which reminds me - did you see the footage of the 7/4
>fireworks in San Diego ? Could have used me there too ... but I digress)

LOL.

"Doing continuity test..."

(Very large explosions for several seconds later...)

"Crap."

I remember some youtube comments like "Best fireworks, ever!",
so don't think it wouldn't go unappreciated... As a matter of fact,
if you could arrange an Illuminations like that for me when I'm there
sometime, it'd be really different!

>> I had a friend that was doing some real-time software for United
>> at DIA (Denver's airport). Unrelated to his work, they were going to
>> have this great automated luggage system. You put a bag on a cart,
>> and the cart was supposed to know where it was supposed to go to
>> deliver the luggage.
>>
>> Problem was, some of the carts never made it to their destination.
>> He said they'd find bunches of carts huddled together someplace
>> where they shouldn't have been. They never figured it out. DIA has
>> a more traditional luggage sorting system now...
>
>I read about that. Sometimes I read about software that simply blows my
>socks off (when I wear them, which is rare) and then I wonder what could
>have been so hard about routing a bunch of luggage ?

Well, the problem is, it probably all worked in testing.

But when you move everything into the real world, there are so many
variable introduced, you might never find the problem.

Software? Could be. Having dozens of people working on the code,
with some leaving and other trying to figure out what previous coders
did (I did that in a former lifetime...sucks...), sometimes software
becomes unmanageable because of lack of foresight and structure.

Hardware? Could be. Maybe the control box components are substandard
and heat within specifications resets the coordinates they think
they're supposed to go to. Remember the fountain problem at that
hotel in Vegas? Nozzles would stop because ice would form due to
the pressures involved, but when they went into the fountain to check
what the problem could be, the ice had melted and there was no
problem...

Outside interference? Sabotage from the losing contractor or
PO'd insider? They just didn't know, couldn't figure it out.

Major fail.

>> So, it *is* still Hyperion Wharf? I was being questioned on that...
>
>Who knows ? Another mess that has changed hands more times than a
>newborn baby at a family gathering. We still call it that and the legal
>papers that were filed are still valid so until that changes, Hyperion
>Wharf it is !
>
>ab

Like mating elephants, huh?

And there you have it. The most definitive proof from a reliable
source that it still might be called Hyperion Wharf!

Good enough for me...

[Keane]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:35:59 +0000 (UTC), Rudeney
<rud...@mickeypics.com> wrote:

>
>That's too bad. It really doesn't seem like it would be that complicated.
>GPS tells you where the buses are, you know the routes and average travel
>times, cameras count crowds at stops, drivers give feedback of how many
>board and exit, factor in the number of people in wheelchairs, scooters and
>strollers, and a simple bit of math tells you how long it will take for a
>bus to arrive and if it can carry everyone in the crowd. When that wait
>time exceeds the standard, you dispatch more buses or redirect buses from
>routes with no waiting guests. I could probably have this spec'ed out in a
>matter of weeks. Sheesh!

No, you see, you aren't one of those that see the big picture.

It's a real time system. That means, it has to track traffic. It
also has to deal with road closures and know how to reroute
and re-time bus routes. It can make decisions at certain points
in which route to tell the driver to go. Because almost all of the
roads in WDW curve, you can't use linear GPS coordinates to
figure times.

Sometimes the specification goes beyond what the vendor
can produce.

And sometimes, salesmen lie. I've been on sales calls.
"Don't tell them we can do that", I'd tell the sales guy before
a meeting. "Sure, we can do that!", sez the sales guy in the
meeting. I refused to go on sales calls as a technical advisor
after a while. Not only were most clients clueless to the
technology they were buying, but I felt soiled after leaving one...

Don't get me started. It was a very dark chapter in my career. :-)

[Keane]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:08:18 -0400, Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:

>My thoughts exactly. But there's more to the story than just the
>technical side, that I can't get into here. Let's just say that
>sometimes when a system fails, it pushes a company to move on to bigger
>solutions.
>
>ab

Isn't that like having someone promoted to get rid of them?

[Dean Worrell]

On 8/14/2012 1:35 PM, Rudeney wrote:
> Debbi <ab...@hwsbi.com> wrote:
>> On 8/13/2012 9:53 AM, Rudeney wrote:
>>> [Bus Service Issues]

{big snip}

>> I remember several years ago when I was involved in the property wide
>> planning of this 'next-gen transportation system'. There were going to be
>> automated signs and automated routing(s), camera's that could estimate
>> crowd sizes and such, and lots of GPS help to make it all play together.
>>
>> At this point I'm (sadly) betting that Hyperion Wharf will be finished
>> before the complete solution to the bus system is.
>
>
> That's too bad. It really doesn't seem like it would be that complicated.
> GPS tells you where the buses are, you know the routes and average travel
> times, cameras count crowds at stops, drivers give feedback of how many
> board and exit, factor in the number of people in wheelchairs, scooters and
> strollers, and a simple bit of math tells you how long it will take for a
> bus to arrive and if it can carry everyone in the crowd. When that wait
> time exceeds the standard, you dispatch more buses or redirect buses from
> routes with no waiting guests. I could probably have this spec'ed out in a
> matter of weeks. Sheesh!

Rodney, actually this has pretty much been solved, but in another area.
Big quarries and mines have had for many years dispatch systems for
the mining trucks. The dispatch system would route, in realtime, the
trucks between shovels and crushers and maintenance and lunch breaks and
whatever else. Granted the scale of number of vehicles is much
different between a mine (10-20-30 trucks) and WDW with what, hundreds
of buses. But the concept is the same:
rock = people
shovel = resort
crusher = Magic Kingdom (big similarity there, no?)

--
Dean - Retired from big employer in Peoria

[Rudeney]

LOL, except rocks don't have brains which can decide not to go where you
expect them to. Then again, there are some guests who seem to be dumber
than rocks. :-). Seriously, there are many factors here. I have now
worked for two different companies with a stake in the transportation
industry; one a transportation software vendor, the other a retailer with a
small private fleet coupled with a network of merchandise vendor transports
and 3PL vendors. And you are right, most of this has been solved. Like I
said in my reply to Keane, a good system would factor in the immediate
known loads (number of waiting guests and guests on buses, including number
of guests needing additional assitance and time to transfer) plus all the
other things at will affect guest behavior such as park schedules,
attraction closures, special events, weather, resort capacities, and even
sales transactions at DD. The last thing that really can't be factored are
on the road delays with breakdowns and accidents and that's where some
intelligence has to be built in. If there's a wreck at BV and ERB, then
the system has to know that andeither factor in extea transit time, or
route equipment around it. Still, nome of this is rocket science and My
offer to spec it out stands :-)


--
- Rodney

[Rudeney]

Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:35:59 +0000 (UTC), Rudeney
> <rud...@mickeypics.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> That's too bad. It really doesn't seem like it would be that complicated.
>> GPS tells you where the buses are, you know the routes and average travel
>> times, cameras count crowds at stops, drivers give feedback of how many
>> board and exit, factor in the number of people in wheelchairs, scooters and
>> strollers, and a simple bit of math tells you how long it will take for a
>> bus to arrive and if it can carry everyone in the crowd. When that wait
>> time exceeds the standard, you dispatch more buses or redirect buses from
>> routes with no waiting guests. I could probably have this spec'ed out in a
>> matter of weeks. Sheesh!
>
> No, you see, you aren't one of those that see the big picture.
>
> It's a real time system. That means, it has to track traffic. It
> also has to deal with road closures and know how to reroute
> and re-time bus routes. It can make decisions at certain points
> in which route to tell the driver to go. Because almost all of the
> roads in WDW curve, you can't use linear GPS coordinates to
> figure times.

But you can, because there are a finite number of routes within WDW and the
buses travel them hundreds or probably thousands of times per day. GPS is
really not even a critical part of the software, except to be helpful in
knowing how far out a bus is when it's not where it's calculated to be due
to unforeseen delays (namely accidents and breakdowns of buses or other
cars). All it takes is for the software to continually build a database of
how long it takes the buses to get from A to B. factor in park schedules,
weather, etc. and you can have a highly accurate model of what it takes.
The unknowns won't have anything to do with tracking buses, it will have to
do with crowd levels. And e desires of those crowds. In fact, if the
system had the ability to count people waiting, people on buses, and also
factored in turnstile counts, ride closures, special events, number of
guests at resorts, sales transaction counts at DD, and ADRs, I'll bet a
model could be built that is 90% accurate or better, again, the only fly in
the ointment are those road hazards. Better yet, when they RFID tag
everyone, they can then just count, say, the rate of exits at the Mk at
11pm for each resort and have buses ready and waiting appropriately.

> Sometimes the specification goes beyond what the vendor
> can produce.

That's why the vendor shouldn't commit until the specs are clear. Of
course we all know how that goes - scope creep and vendor overpromises are
the norm.

> And sometimes, salesmen lie. I've been on sales calls.
> "Don't tell them we can do that", I'd tell the sales guy before
> a meeting. "Sure, we can do that!", sez the sales guy in the
> meeting. I refused to go on sales calls as a technical advisor
> after a while. Not only were most clients clueless to the
> technology they were buying, but I felt soiled after leaving one...
>
> Don't get me started. It was a very dark chapter in my career. :-)

Yep, I understand perfectly. i worked for one company that was really bad
about that. There sales team were told from the top management to promise
anything the customer wanted so we could get the sale, then we'd figure out
how to make it work once we had their money. It seems to be the SOP these
days.


--
- Rodney

[Lisa Cubbon]

On 8/14/2012 9:21 PM, Keane wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:26:36 -0400, Lisa Cubbon <cub...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, it will be something, right? But please, what is Hyperion
>> Wharf? I don't remember what that's about.
>>
>
> The spit of land formerly known as Pleasure Island...

oh.. never mind.. I miss Pleasure Island and all the adult pleasures it
held.

Lisa
>
> Keane
>

[jt august]

In article <47ci28hp9vqqsbi53...@4ax.com>,
Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:

> There is always a story or two of bad bus service, but for the most
> part, I'm not sure most of the incidents were Disney's fault. Anyone
> who's ridden a lot of a mass transit bus system knows there are
> just times when bus services sucks...

But it seems the number of posts and side snide comments has dropped off
massively from two or three years ago.

> What Disney has gotten better at, is communications. Both between
> Resort Transportation CM's and Central Dispatch (or whatever they're
> called), and the waiting guests.
>
And that was what was desperately needed when I went. Communication.
And when Disney communicates to the guests, their track record is
usually open and honest, so this is a good thing.

[Keane]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:03:46 +0000 (UTC), Rudeney

Right. Now set your Waybak(tm) machine to the point when the project
started. RFID was a mis-spelling of the reedy creek fire department
abbreviation. GPS was gaining traction, but still had selective
availability on it. (I think that was the term.) Computing costs
were still pretty darn high. Reliable storage certainly was.

Even cell service in the World sucked back then. None of the
infrastructure to do it was in place.

>> Sometimes the specification goes beyond what the vendor
>> can produce.
>
>
>That's why the vendor shouldn't commit until the specs are clear. Of
>course we all know how that goes - scope creep and vendor overpromises are
>the norm.

Oh, I'm sure the vendor was *sure* they could do it. You are assuming
it was the software. Once you get into the real world there are a
vast number of reasons why a project can fail, even if the software
works perfectly...

[Rudeney]

Huh? This project didn't start *that* log ago! You act like it was back
when the MK first opened. Although it's just been in the last four or five
years that GPS has become ubiquitous, but it's been around a long time. My
car from 12 years ago had it. Back in the 1980's, I had something called
Loran-C on my boat, but I didn't have that long before GPS was available
and I bought a handheld (no maps, just coordinates and breadcrumbs). Oh,
and just to date it, it wasn't Y2K ready and t became a brick on 1/1/00.
RFID has been around a while, too, but because of costs, it's mostly been
used in government and large industrial companies, ad not in a disposable
form.

Regardless, I wasn't really talking about what could have been, I was
really talking about what we could do today.

> Even cell service in the World sucked back then. None of the
> infrastructure to do it was in place.

Yeah, I remember being there back in the mid 1990's and about the only
place I cold get cell service was on the platform at the TTC.

>>> Sometimes the specification goes beyond what the vendor
>>> can produce.
>>
>>
>> That's why the vendor shouldn't commit until the specs are clear. Of
>> course we all know how that goes - scope creep and vendor overpromises are
>> the norm.
>
> Oh, I'm sure the vendor was *sure* they could do it. You are assuming
> it was the software. Once you get into the real world there are a
> vast number of reasons why a project can fail, even if the software
> works perfectly...

Well, I would guess that "someone" at the vendor's office was sure, but
I'll bet if you asked the people actually doing the work, they might not be
so sure. i can't tell you how many times I have gone into something
knowing it will fail,but the customer expects perfection because someone in
sales or executive management promised it. And I'm not assuming software
caused a failure, because software doesn't fail - it does exactly what it
was coded to do, so the failure would be in the analysis and spec work,
testing, planning etc.


--
- Rodney

[slawter]

On 8/20/2012 9:28 AM, Rudeney wrote:
> Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:03:46 +0000 (UTC), Rudeney
>> <rud...@mickeypics.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Keane <ke...@keanespics.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:35:59 +0000 (UTC), Rudeney
>>>> <rud...@mickeypics.com> wrote:
>>

<SNIP-ITTY-DOO-DAH>

> Well, I would guess that "someone" at the vendor's office was sure, but
> I'll bet if you asked the people actually doing the work, they might not be
> so sure. i can't tell you how many times I have gone into something
> knowing it will fail,but the customer expects perfection because someone in
> sales or executive management promised it. And I'm not assuming software
> caused a failure, because software doesn't fail - it does exactly what it
> was coded to do, so the failure would be in the analysis and spec work,
> testing, planning etc.
>

It's all moot anyway because as of this morning, all the buses have been
replaced with flying dragons. I booked a fireworks flight over the MK
for next week !!

-Sid

[Rudeney]

Oh, and they really think that will be better? i mean, it's all fun and
games until someone gets sneezed on and burned to a crisp! Well, at least
they can make it a good movie tie-in (Pete's Dragon). A better tie in and,
and likely a safer mode of transportation would be the "deck chairs" from
Wall-E.

Seriously, I think buses can do the job, but they just need a better
dynamic way to handle the variable crowd demands. And I still say it's not
that hard. The software is at its roots an "exception processing system".
You start with a base system that operates in a best case scenario. That
is, we have fixed routes, and for each route, we know the average demand
(i.e. guests per hour that want to take that route, and even which hours
will experience higher demand), and average transit time given average
traffic conditions (again knowing that there will be peak times, but not
knowing when there might be an accident or other road hazard). So now we
know that if we want guest wait times to never exceed 20 minutes, we can
calculate how many buses we need to make that happen. The systems then
only needs to monitor buses and crowd levels, even considering the number
of mega-strollers, wheelchairs and ECVs at the stops, and have additional
buses available with flexible routing to fill in.


--
- Rodney

[Lilith]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:21:23 -0700, "Darrell Jefress"
<eve...@tokyo.com> wrote:

>Someone has made the effort to depict the WDW transportation system as if it
>were on a big-city map. There are a few details off, but the look is really
>cool:
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfstad/7117183143/sizes/z/in/photostream/
>
>N via D

I was thinking that this would be a great graphic to iron onto the
back of a T-shirt and have someone in your party wear it when going to
WDW.

I once created a T-shirt with my own stylized Epcot attraction emblems
on it. Only one cast member commented on it. Maybe I should have
laid out the emblems in their respective locations and drawn red and
blue lines connecting them. :)

--
Lilith