Is Swing Always Blues?
Ed Jay
speaks to the current state of WCS and its music. I found it at Swing Dancer
magazine <http://swing-dancer.com>. I'm posting it with John's permission.
I find John's essay to be very timely, as I and others I know have opted to
stay at home rather than subject ourselves to some of the music we're
hearing played in the guise of being Swing music. I'm talking about heavy
metal and Krumping music that's made its way into some of our local DJ's
music portfolios...and is being played to death.
Essence
by John Festa
essence:(noun)
the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially
something abstract, that determines its character
Every dance that has evolved has done so because of a specific
characteristic in music. Mambo for its clave, waltz for its ¾ time, hustle
for the driving beat, swing for the syncopated rhythm and so on. Their
movements are a response to something very particular and distinct in the
music. The omnipresent debate over whether the music we dance to swings or
not continues ad infinitum. We no longer dance exclusively to blues and
rhythm & blues with a syncopated back beat. We now dance to pop, hip hop,
ballads, latin, smooth jazz, not-so-smooth jazz, rock & roll, top 40,
alternative, new wave, urban r & b and on and on. The only musical
characteristic required is 4/4 time. We will dance to the sound of
windshield wipers. The pros and cons have been enumerated endlessly: The
dance has evolved. We are not swinging. A modern sound will bring the young
people in, etc. We sold our soul years ago. Where are the young people?
But this essay is not about the modern musical diversity in WCS. This essay
is about the physicality of today’s dance. What is its essence? One would be
hard pressed to name the one quality that ‘determines its character’. Ask
five WCS teachers to define our dance and you will get as many different
answers. In my mind, the one quality that makes swing swing is the center to
center connection and elasticity of tension and release between two moving
bodies. That a leader can anchor and a follower sit into that anchor while
both expressing rhythm, only to release all that stored energy, is one of
the most glorious of all kinetic actions. I portend this is lost. As I
travel around the country and dance with many different people I became more
and more aware of this. There are 2 or more generations of dancers that have
never experienced this. Few teachers teach this. It is the highest order to
do so. It is one of the most difficult feelings to teach. It is intangible.
Like trying to teach riding a bicycle. Words are useless until you feel it.
Then all the words make perfect sense. It is much easier to teach ‘put your
right foot here on 2, hand here on 3’. And there are teachers who have never
experienced this feeling/movement themselves. But I say this is the essence
of swing. And I say this is gone from our dance. West Coast Swing today has
no essence, no single indispensable characteristic that defines it and
delineates it from what is not WCS.
Perhaps today’s WCS lives in competition, but that’s another essay.
It is a distinct possibility that the divergent music has led to this end.
We used to dance to faster syncopated tempi. At these tempi, an astute
connection between partners was essential. The dance would not work without
it. The laws of physics are perfect. Dancing to 80 beats per week does not
require this connection. When we west coast swing dancers years back began
dancing to ‘other than’ music, we brought with us that connection that was
engrained. It was in our bodies. We were swinging to non-swing music. Even
at slow tempi. Because that’s how we danced. Now, a few generations later,
where students are taught by teachers, themselves from one generation prior,
who learned to dance to slow or ‘groove’ music, how will anyone learn this
swing connection? It is not essential at these tempi or to these sounds.
Physics does not require it. Nothing has replaced it. Our dance has become
amorphous.
My recent experiences lead me to believe that many dancers feel this loss. I
am one of them. Projection, perhaps. But as I play music around the country,
I hear plenty to support this theory. I in no way mean to point fingers or
position blame. It is just time to call a spade a spade. I enjoyed and
helped pioneer the diversity of sounds years back and loved dancing to
slower groovy and basically ‘other than’ music. But I feel our dance has, as
an art form, explored different options, traveled down a few roads and the
original plan was the best. That which can deliver the essence of swing.
Perhaps simply everything old is new again and this is the freshest sound. I
do not foresee us dancing to the tempi of the mid 90’s during the white hot
phase of WCS. But I think a more traditional sound will again garner respect
and be added to today’s mix of music. I, for one, couldn’t be happier. I
signed on for swing dancing. For it is the most glorious in feeling, in
sound, in purity and love.
John Festa
John has been involved in the swing dance scene for over 20 years,
serving as dancer, dj, competitor, judge and event promoter. Learning Lindy
Hop from his family, John then became a pivotal figure in West Coast Swing.
Visit John’s new website at www.swingislove.com where he will be hosting a
blog about dance.
Thanks, John. You have elegantly echoed the thoughts of many of us.
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
Icono Clast
> I and others I know have opted to stay at home rather than subject
> ourselves to some of the music we're hearing played in the guise
> of being Swing music.
That's a bigger step than I'm willing to take but I fully understand
those who take it.
> Thanks, John. You have elegantly echoed the thoughts of many of
> us.
Yes.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A dancing San Franciscan who sometimes just listens.
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
SwangoEm
Ed Jay wrote:
> I find John's essay to be very timely
I heartily agree!!
Thanks so much, Ed, for bringing John's essay to this group....
Cutting back my attendance at WCS activities and conventions has left
me lonely for the "true" swing feel of our dance as I stick closer to
home. And thanks so much, John, for a truly enlightened treatise. I
am gratified to know there are some kindred souls still out there!
Emily Trites
SwangoEm
dance...@earthlink.net
Ed Jay wrote:
> The following essay, "Essence," by John Festa <http://swingislove.com>
> speaks to the current state of WCS and its music. I found it at Swing Dancer
> magazine <http://swing-dancer.com>. I'm posting it with John's permission.
>
> I find John's essay to be very timely, as I and others I know have opted to
> stay at home rather than subject ourselves to some of the music we're
> hearing played in the guise of being Swing music. I'm talking about heavy
> metal and Krumping music that's made its way into some of our local DJ's
> music portfolios...and is being played to death.
>
>
> Thanks, John. You have elegantly echoed the thoughts of many of us.
> --
> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
Ed, did you miss John's point? His primary focus is the "feel" of the
dance, a kinetic thing, not the music. The elastic change of
compression and tension energies between partners that is the "essense"
of Swing. The music is only a vessel for this and while "traditional"
swung eighth blues music provides a vessel it is not essential. It is
the kinetic essense that provides for me a "great" dance, and seems to
be lacking in many dancers today.
Bravo John. Your short note about competition may be more to the mark
than anything. While competition his fostered some fantastic dancers
and wonderful routines, many of us lesser types have tried to mimic
what we see there and have lost the essense and end up basically
"Freestyling while holding hands". That is how i would describe a
complete lack of this "essence".
$0.02
Chris Brown
Camarillo, CA
Ed Jay
>
>Ed Jay wrote:
>> The following essay, "Essence," by John Festa <http://swingislove.com>
>> speaks to the current state of WCS and its music. I found it at Swing Dancer
>> magazine <http://swing-dancer.com>. I'm posting it with John's permission.
>>
>> I find John's essay to be very timely, as I and others I know have opted to
>> stay at home rather than subject ourselves to some of the music we're
>> hearing played in the guise of being Swing music. I'm talking about heavy
>> metal and Krumping music that's made its way into some of our local DJ's
>> music portfolios...and is being played to death.
>>
><snip>
>>
>> Thanks, John. You have elegantly echoed the thoughts of many of us.
>> --
>> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
>
>Ed, did you miss John's point? His primary focus is the "feel" of the
>dance, a kinetic thing, not the music. The elastic change of
>compression and tension energies between partners that is the "essense"
>of Swing. The music is only a vessel for this and while "traditional"
>swung eighth blues music provides a vessel it is not essential. It is
>the kinetic essense that provides for me a "great" dance, and seems to
>be lacking in many dancers today.
I think you're mistaken, Chris. But...I'll ask for clarification. News at
11.
>
>Bravo John. Your short note about competition may be more to the mark
>than anything. While competition his fostered some fantastic dancers
>and wonderful routines, many of us lesser types have tried to mimic
>what we see there and have lost the essense and end up basically
>"Freestyling while holding hands". That is how i would describe a
>complete lack of this "essence".
Mike Corbett
>dance...@earthlink.net scribed:
>
>>
>>Ed Jay wrote:
>>> The following essay, "Essence," by John Festa <http://swingislove.com>
>>> speaks to the current state of WCS and its music. I found it at Swing Dancer
>>> magazine <http://swing-dancer.com>. I'm posting it with John's permission.
>>>
>>> I find John's essay to be very timely, as I and others I know have opted to
>>> stay at home rather than subject ourselves to some of the music we're
>>> hearing played in the guise of being Swing music. I'm talking about heavy
>>> metal and Krumping music that's made its way into some of our local DJ's
>>> music portfolios...and is being played to death.
>>>
>><snip>
>>>
>>> Thanks, John. You have elegantly echoed the thoughts of many of us.
>>> --
>>> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
>>
>>Ed, did you miss John's point? His primary focus is the "feel" of the
>>dance, a kinetic thing, not the music. The elastic change of
>>compression and tension energies between partners that is the "essense"
>>of Swing. The music is only a vessel for this and while "traditional"
>>swung eighth blues music provides a vessel it is not essential. It is
>>the kinetic essense that provides for me a "great" dance, and seems to
>>be lacking in many dancers today.
>
>I think you're mistaken, Chris. But...I'll ask for clarification. News at
>11.
Perhaps this quote will provide some clarification.
>But this essay is not about the modern musical diversity in WCS. This essay
>is about the physicality of today's dance. What is its essence?
Mike Corbett
Ed Jay
I haven't heard back from John regarding the message he wished to convey
with his essay, so I'll step into it a bit more. If, as I think, it's about
the music, the above merely couches his intent.
Yes, John speaks to the motion as the essence of Swing. But, in the second
half of the essay, which ends with the conclusion of the essay, John says
that we've lost the essence of Swing because of divergent music.
I stand by my original position that the essay is about the music we dance
to, and how the music's divergence has robbed Swing of its [original]
essence. That's what I believe John's point is. If it isn't, that's OK with
me, I still believe it, and that was my reason for posting John's essay.
memiki
> The following essay, "Essence," by John Festa <http://swingislove.com>
> speaks to the current state of WCS and its music. I found it at Swing Dancer
> magazine <http://swing-dancer.com>. I'm posting it with John's permission.
>
> I find John's essay to be very timely, as I and others I know have opted to
> stay at home rather than subject ourselves to some of the music we're
> hearing played in the guise of being Swing music. I'm talking about heavy
> metal and Krumping music that's made its way into some of our local DJ's
> music portfolios...and is being played to death.
Hi Ed -- Seldom do I opt to stay home, but often I opt not to dance.
Methinks John Festa's "Essence" is right on. His new website is great,
too, is it not!
>
> Essence
> by John Festa
<snip>
>Ask five WCS teachers to define our dance and you will get as many different
> answers. In my mind, the one quality that makes swing swing is the center to
> center connection and elasticity of tension and release between two moving
> bodies. That a leader can anchor and a follower sit into that anchor while
> both expressing rhythm, only to release all that stored energy, is one of
> the most glorious of all kinetic actions. I portend this is lost.
Methinks the losses to which John refers often begins with how WCS is
taught or with a student who chooses to do his/her own thing and as
such moves up in the competitions.....we have teachers who are WCS
dancers, but not established teachers; who because they dance Advanced,
AllStar, Invitational, sometimes Champions, think they can teach. They
are "newcomers" compared to our established experienced teachers and
pros. I can think of one Lindy crossover who teaches WCS and still has
not got it right. Some (not all) of these "newcomers" invent their own
WCS and pass it on to their students through lessons or other media.
>As I travel around the country and dance with many different people
I became more
> and more aware of this. There are 2 or more generations of dancers that have
> never experienced this. Few teachers teach this. It is the highest order to
> do so. It is one of the most difficult feelings to teach. It is intangible.
> Like trying to teach riding a bicycle. Words are useless until you feel it.
> Then all the words make perfect sense. It is much easier to teach 'put your
> right foot here on 2, hand here on 3'. And there are teachers who have never
> experienced this feeling/movement themselves. But I say this is the essence
> of swing. And I say this is gone from our dance. West Coast Swing today has
> no essence, no single indispensable characteristic that defines it and
> delineates it from what is not WCS.
Beautifully said by John..........Methinks that in the not too distant
future WCS might become so diluted as to be an entirely different dance
and not recognizable as WCS.
>
> Perhaps today's WCS lives in competition, but that's another essay.
Indeed...... and that's a long essay...... :)
>
> When we west coast swing dancers years back began
> dancing to 'other than' music, we brought with us that connection that was
> engrained. It was in our bodies. We were swinging to non-swing music. Even
> at slow tempi. Because that's how we danced. Now, a few generations later,
> where students are taught by teachers, themselves from one generation prior,
> who learned to dance to slow or 'groove' music, how will anyone learn this
> swing connection? It is not essential at these tempi or to these sounds.
> Physics does not require it. Nothing has replaced it. Our dance has become
> amorphous.
>
> My recent experiences lead me to believe that many dancers feel this loss. I
> am one of them. Projection, perhaps. But as I play music around the country,
> I hear plenty to support this theory. I in no way mean to point fingers or
> position blame. It is just time to call a spade a spade. I enjoyed and
> helped pioneer the diversity of sounds years back and loved dancing to
> slower groovy and basically 'other than' music. But I feel our dance has, as
> an art form, explored different options, traveled down a few roads and the
> original plan was the best. That which can deliver the essence of swing.
> Perhaps simply everything old is new again and this is the freshest sound. I
> do not foresee us dancing to the tempi of the mid 90's during the white hot
> phase of WCS. But I think a more traditional sound will again garner respect
> and be added to today's mix of music. I, for one, couldn't be happier. I
> signed on for swing dancing. For it is the most glorious in feeling, in
> sound, in purity and love.
>
AMEN to all.
Miki
ruthe...@aol.com
We were overjoyed to read your post about whatever happened to West
Coast Swing? We left the WCS scene a few years ago because the music
no longer had a "swing" feel to it. That music, without "swing,"
eliminated the connection that you've described, one that came out of
the music. That connection got the dancer from one end of the slot to
the other and created the flow, the stretch, and the action/reaction
between partners.
Music has always dictated the dance: for example, cha cha was danced
to cha cha music; waltz was danced to waltz music, tango was danced to
tango music. When we learned to dance in a studio, the first thing we
did was to listen to the music and determine which dance to do to that
music. Thus, music determined the dance. And if the music did not
swing, it was not suitable for West Coast Swing dancing. The music of
TODAY does not support swing dancing. It supports a vertical, up-down
movement with little or no connection. And it does NOT swing.
A few years ago, we were fortunate enough to hook up with Randy Albers,
a swing dancer whose style was driven by the connection you describe,
and who danced with Sharlot Bott and Michelle French, and who also won
the U.S. Open. He's an old-time dancer who has the connection and the
feel for the music and who cannot enjoy a West Coast Swing dance if
those elements are missing. For him and for us, it all comes down to
the MUSIC. And the music of today simply does NOT swing.
Consider the current TV program. "Dancing with the Stars." A problem
exists with the music chosen for this program. The dancers do tango to
contemporary music that has neither the tango rhythm nor feel. The
dancers do rhumba to contemporary music that has neither the rhumba
rhythm nor feel. The dancers do waltz to contemporary music that has
neither the waltz rhythm nor feel. Thus, the dancers of today learn to
dance to contemporary music that is not specific to the style of dance
they are learning. They have no idea of the essence of the dance they
are doing, nor of the connection that comes from that essence.
To summarize, every dance was created to fit the specific rhythm and
feel of the music. Applying this to swing, if the MUSIC does not
swing, the dance cannot be considered West Coast Swing. So let's get
back to the West Coast Swing MUSIC so we can do our beloved West Coast
Swing dance!
Ron N.
> Bravo John. Your short note about competition may be more to the mark
> than anything. While competition his fostered some fantastic dancers
> and wonderful routines, many of us lesser types have tried to mimic
> what we see there and have lost the essense and end up basically
> "Freestyling while holding hands". That is how i would describe a
> complete lack of this "essence".
Over a decade ago, when I was first learning beginning ballroom
dance and didn't know what real WCS was, I heard a swing club
dancer describe WCS to me as: "freestyle in a slot with lead
and follow". So that's not a new style of definition.
I haven't danced WCS long enough to know if the feel has
changed. But competition of the kind done in WCS dance world
could lead to a lessening of dance feel. The competitions
are currently judged by people watching a dance, not doing it,
and the dancers are often dancing mainly for showmanship and
audience appeal. (Of course the same complaint can be leveled
at ballroom dancers as well, especially in ballroom Latin &
Rhythm.) And some strata of social dancers seems to want to
emulate whatever is the current winning style in competitions.
WCS could be evolving towards being more of a "Look at me"
dance (as if it didn't start out that way already), perhaps
losing another small portion of the aspect of it being a
"It feels good dancing together , even if no one is watching"
social dance to swinging music.
Could this have led to what John Festa is talking about?
IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M
Peter D
news:2etvi250esk8fov7v...@4ax.com...
I'm no expert in West Coast Swing -- or much else! :-) -- but tha'ts what I
got from the essay as well. I sometimes hear WCS dancers say "anything: when
I ask what you can dance WCS to, but what I'm asking is what is the _core_,
the _essential_, the most appropriate and expressive, music. It seems to me
that hte answer is "swing music". Again, not an expert, but do understand
(and hear) the difference between "swing music" and not.
(asbestos undies donned!)
dav...@aol.com
with those who claim WCS can only be properly done to music that
"swings". That would leave out some of the greatest WCS songs ever
recorded. "One Drop Of Love" by Ray Charles, for example, does not
"swing". Are you telling me you can't dance WCS, and a really
swingin' WCS, to that song?
Those that yearn for the "old days" when "all the music swung" are
thinking about a dance that hasn't been done for at least 20 years. I
remember watching old BBtB tapes with some friends a few years ago-
from the early '90's. Far from "classic swing", the music was what
was then popular. I distinctly remember "The Heat Is On" by Glen Frey.
It reminds me of that saying, "The good old days ain't what they used
to be- and what's more, they never were".
Which doesn't mean I'm okay with a lot of the music played for WCS
these days. But WCS as a dance form is unique because it is a living
dance, evolving with the times. You're not going to force everyone to
go back to dancing wcs to fast blues and big band music, and if you
try, you'll just split the wcs comminity apart. Reintegrating good
swinging music as part of a balanced mix- now THAT's a worthy goal.
David Koppelman
Icono Clast
> I stand by my original position that the essay is about the music
> we dance to, and how the music's divergence has robbed Swing of
> its [original] essence. That's what I believe John's point is.
So do I but I think the lowering of tempi is a significant part of
it. Some of the current tempi are so low that the physical forces
needed for the kind of dynamic expression of the past is lacking
[Egad, I hope I said that correctly.].
dav...@aol.com wrote:
> You're not going to force everyone to go back to dancing wcs to
> fast blues and big band music,
Damn (and other expletives)!
> and if you try, you'll just split the wcs comminity apart.
> Reintegrating good swinging music as part of a balanced mix- now
> THAT's a worthy goal.
It is indeed!
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me!
SwinginInTheHood
> On Oct 13, 11:05 am, dancerch...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> I haven't danced WCS long enough to know if the feel has
> changed. But competition of the kind done in WCS dance world
> could lead to a lessening of dance feel. The competitions
> are currently judged by people watching a dance, not doing it,
> and the dancers are often dancing mainly for showmanship and
> audience appeal. (Of course the same complaint can be leveled
> at ballroom dancers as well, especially in ballroom Latin &
> Rhythm.)
And Salsa and Hustle.... I actually began dancing WCS before Lindy
Hop. I hated WCS, but loved Lindy. After a while I tried WCS again
(actually, because my favorite Salsa joint closed down), and began a
new love relationship. I discovered it wasn't the dance I disliked,
just some of the people.
I think it's a wonderful dance and I feel I can express myself in so
many different ways with it. Ways that don't exist in any other style
of dancing other than freestyle.
> And some strata of social dancers seems to want to
> emulate whatever is the current winning style in competitions.
> WCS could be evolving towards being more of a "Look at me"
> dance (as if it didn't start out that way already), perhaps
> losing another small portion of the aspect of it being a
> "It feels good dancing together , even if no one is watching"
> social dance to swinging music.
>
Because I still do the "original" swing to "original" swing music, as
well as study vintage clips and routines, I feel I have some clue about
this "swing" feeling that's been discussed. However, when I'm at the
WCS clubs, I don't see a lot of that "swing" essence, even when blues
and jazz music is being played. What I see a lot of, particularly in
the older guys, is a dedication to executing every pattern one has ever
learned. A lot of what I see, even if it looks good, has this sort of
mechanical and pre-recorded feel to it. I guess it's what you call
"Look at me" swing.
Don't get me wrong. As a performer myself, I've got nothing against
throwing out some moves for the audience... But even Whitey's Lindy
Hoppers, one of the greatest swing dance troupes in history, prided
themselves on being "social dancers" as well as performers. That is,
dancing for the sheer fun of it.
I have seen what I feel is "swing" essence though -- I've seen it in
the younger guys dancing their versions of WCS to hip-hop, rap and
whatever. There's a free-ness I feel from these guys, a joy, a light
element of non-rehearsed spontaneity that, to me, is the very essence
of everything I've learned and experienced in swing -- even it it
ain't to swing music.
Maybe they are free-styling while holding hands, but damnit, they sure
make it look more like fun and less like a job. Maybe that's why Lindy
Hoppers and EC Swingers are known for their easy smiles, and WC
Swingers the opposite.
I know, sounds ironic. But this discussion has mostly been about the
music and technical aspects of the dance. I'm talking about it's soul,
it's sprit. The "Look at me" comment above really got me to thinking
about what I think about the dance and those I see dancing it. I've
spent far more time lately watching (and studying) WCS dancers as I've
personally been focused on learning Ballroom.
I too have a hard time getting into a lot of the hip-hop and rap and
other contemporary music played, and will just sit out rather than try
and look cool dancing to music I can't feel or connect to. But the
young folks who can feel it seem quite uninhibited by the pretenses
that seem to rule a lot of the older generation. They just get out
there and swing. To a Krumpin' beat.
Just my opinion. What do I know?
-ron
Peter D
news:1160814875.5...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> Generally, I'm in agreement with Festa. But that doesn't mean I agree
> with those who claim WCS can only be properly done to music that
> "swings". That would leave out some of the greatest WCS songs ever
> recorded. "One Drop Of Love" by Ray Charles, for example, does not
> "swing". Are you telling me you can't dance WCS, and a really
> swingin' WCS, to that song?
Thanks for that example, Dave. It helps me further define "music for WCS".
Yeah, I'd definitley WCS to it -- though it seems a little faster than
comfort level to to my ears. Does it "swing"? Well, it sure does "funk"!
Maybe I should refine my definition of WCS music and say it "swings and
funks". :-)
> Which doesn't mean I'm okay with a lot of the music played for WCS
> these days. But WCS as a dance form is unique because it is a living
> dance, evolving with the times.
Not only WCS is unique in this. Argentine Tango and Salsa come to mind. In
fact, just about any dance that isn't codified in a studio manual is
"evolving" --- some faster than others. It's the nature of such a human
expression that it not stand still. :-)
It occurs to me though that if something becomes an everything then it
becomes a nothing. Maybe WCS has become so all-inclusive muscially as to
lose (musical) touch with what makes it different, and in doing so has lost
contact with essential roots, roots that held it's uniqueness and gave it
what made it so special.
I say as I've said before that you cannot -- and should not -- WCS to
"everything". It is not that versatile -- and shouldn't be.
Swin...@webtv.net
< if the MUSIC does not swing, the dance cannot be considered West Coast
Swing. So let's get back to the West Coast Swing MUSIC so we can do our
beloved West Coast Swing dance!
Dear unsigned rutheeight:
1 Please define "MUSIC" that does not swing;
2. Please define what is West Coast Swing MUSIC;
3 And just for fun, define West Coast Swing dance.
I feel very confident that none of the above can be defined with any
certainty and any definition would be argued by others, probably
including me. That's always going to be a problem with any art.
What bothers me are dancers that abandon what they LOVE so much. That is
a cowardly way out...quitting. They would rather leave and bitch instead
of doing something about the situation. If you leave, don't
bitch...you've already turned tail and ran. If you stay, bitch all you
want...you CAN effect change.
There are only two ways of telling the complete truth - anonymously and
posthumously.
Thomas Sowell
Swin...@webtv.net
<...I heard a swing club dancer describe WCS to me as: "freestyle in a
slot with lead and follow". So that's not a new style of definition.>
Lead and follow in a slot with some freestyle would be better.
Ron:
<But competition of the kind done in WCS dance world could lead to a
lessening of dance feel.>
First, WCS is not about competition. Secondly, how would you know how it
feels...you're not competing.
Ron:
<The competitions are currently judged by people watching a dance, not
doing it,>
Brilliant...
Ron:
<...and the dancers are often dancing mainly for showmanship and
audience appeal.>
Even more brilliant...need I comment on what a competition is about?
Ron:
<And some strata of social dancers seems to want to emulate whatever is
the current winning style in competitions.>
Pure genius....a first grader could have written this.
Ron:
<WCS could be evolving towards being more of a "Look at me" dance (as if
it didn't start out that way already), perhaps losing another small
portion of the aspect of it being a "It feels good dancing together ,
even if no one is watching" social dance to swinging music.>
It's always been a "look at me dance", the same as every other dance.
Got anything "new" Ron?
memiki
David -- I dislike the "old" WCS music with a heavy beat typically used
in classes where students needed the obvious beat. -- OTOH I enjoy
dancing to John Festa's website theme "On Broadway",
http://www.swingislove.com/swingislove.htm -- Brian Culbertson's "Come
On Up" -- Grover Washington -- Sam Cooke -- Al Green -- Down to the
Bone -- Alva's Blues -- Diana Krall "From this Moment On" -- Renee
Olstead ........and any music that pulls me to the dance floor, makes
my feet syncopate and lifts me out of the real world and into the dance
world. I like slow, medium, fast and dreamy.
I am more definitive when it comes to naming what I don't like; but my
favorites are without limits to the point that I cannot name them all
-- but they need to sound like music to my ears and feel like music to
my feet.....and syncopate....syncopate.....
Am I a DJ's nightmare ? :)
Miki
Peter D
news:10812-45...@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...
> rutheeight:
> < if the MUSIC does not swing, the dance cannot be considered West Coast
> Swing.
I disagree. Though some music is better suited to WCS, it is not the _music_
as much as the _dance_ that defines the dance called WCS.
> So let's get back to the West Coast Swing MUSIC so we can do our
> beloved West Coast Swing dance!
>
> Dear unsigned rutheeight:
> 1 Please define "MUSIC" that does not swing;
I would say it's music that doesn't "swing". If it ain't got that swing...
:-)
> 2. Please define what is West Coast Swing MUSIC;
Ah, there's the rub.
> 3 And just for fun, define West Coast Swing dance.
>
> I feel very confident that none of the above can be defined with any
> certainty and any definition would be argued by others, probably
> including me. That's always going to be a problem with any art.
It's interesting that you included the dance in the above "cannot be
defined" because in the next message you define it as "Lead and follow in a
slot with some freestyle" (accurate imho). The dance can be defined. I mean
the people who dance it, promote it, teach it, learn it, organize it, and
champion it seem to know (and almost totally) agree on what it is.
Mike Corbett
It depends on the purpose for which the definition is intended. Poopy
referred to one description being more accurate than another. He said
nothing about a definition.
Try defining WCS in such a way that multiple judges can reliably
conclude whether or not a routine contains 80% swing and you have a
kettle of fish nobody has boiled well yet.
Mike Corbett
dav...@aol.com
No- in fact you're fairly typical of the folks dancing west coast swing
in that you like a variety of different kinds of music to dance to.
Not everyone wants the same variety, of course, but the existence of a
variety itself is part of the allure of the dance.
Of the songs you named, some "swing" (Alva, most Sam Cooke), some don't
(Culbertson, Down To The Bone). But you can definitely "swing", as in
west coast swing, to them. And therein lies the danger of trying to
horseshoe WCS back into a box that's marked "only done to music that
swings". And that's why it ain't gonna happen, and why a better
goal is simply a more balanced mix. That, btw, is the mix that Festa
played at BBtB- not every song "swung", but every song was capable of
DANCING swing. Which is the mix I aim for too.
David Koppelman
David Koppelman
memiki
Thanks, David, for your reply. BTW I enjoy dancing to every track on
Brian Culbertson's "Come on Up" :)
I regret I was not in the ballroom when John Festa was DJing.....I was
probably catching up on some sleep so that I could dance yet another
night until 5:15 AM :).
Here's to keeping what John described as "the one quality that makes
swing swing is the center to center connection and elasticity of
tension and release between two moving
bodies. That a leader can anchor and a follower sit into that anchor
while
both expressing rhythm, only to release all that stored energy, is one
of
the most glorious of all kinetic actions." ......
Miki
Icono Clast
> "Ed Jay" wrote:
>> I stand by my original position that the essay is about the
>> music we dance to
>
> can dance WCS to, but what I'm asking is what is the _core_, the
> _essential_, the most appropriate and expressive, music.
Not all music that swings is Swing Music, i.e.,
http://geocities.com/dancefest/Articles/VignsDan.html#LA , and not
all Swing Music is Swing DANCE Music. I think most Swing dancers
would agree that "Kansas City", when played as intended, is an
excellent illustration of "what is the _core_, the _essential_, the
most appropriate and expressive, music."
I think a few other illustrative numbers are "Old Time Rock 'n'
Roll", "Mustang Sally", and "Tanqueray".
Here's the introduction on the "Sweat" page:
http://geocities.com/dancefest//Articles/Sweat.html
Many consider "Sweat" to be the best-ever Swing dance number.
If you, as I, have trouble understanding words when sung, here they
are: . . ."
-- ________________________________________________________________
A dancing San Franciscan who sometimes just listens.
dav...@aol.com
Icono Clast wrote:
> I think a few other illustrative numbers are "Old Time Rock 'n'
> Roll", "Mustang Sally", and "Tanqueray".
Of these, only "Tanqueray" is in swung rhythm. See what I mean?:-)
David Koppelman
dance...@earthlink.net
>
> Yes, John speaks to the motion as the essence of Swing. But, in the second
> half of the essay, which ends with the conclusion of the essay, John says
> that we've lost the essence of Swing because of divergent music.
>
> I stand by my original position that the essay is about the music we dance
> to, and how the music's divergence has robbed Swing of its [original]
> essence. That's what I believe John's point is. If it isn't, that's OK with
> me, I still believe it, and that was my reason for posting John's essay.
> --
> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
John wrote: "In my mind, the one quality that makes swing swing is the
center to center connection and elasticity of tension and release
between two moving
bodies. That a leader can anchor and a follower sit into that anchor
while
both expressing rhythm, only to release all that stored energy, is one
of
the most glorious of all kinetic actions."
Yes he talks about the music as a catalist but the essense is this
elastic conection with kinetic exchange between partners. Some people
call it "pulse". If you don't have it, transmit it, it is difficult to
describe/teach it to others. When you do have it going with both (it
takes two) then it is as John says "glorious".
Chris Brown
Camarillo, CA
Ed Jay
>> >>>Ed Jay wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, John speaks to the motion as the essence of Swing. But, in the second
>> half of the essay, which ends with the conclusion of the essay, John says
>> that we've lost the essence of Swing because of divergent music.
>>
>> I stand by my original position that the essay is about the music we dance
>> to, and how the music's divergence has robbed Swing of its [original]
>> essence. That's what I believe John's point is. If it isn't, that's OK with
>> me, I still believe it, and that was my reason for posting John's essay.
>
>John wrote: "In my mind, the one quality that makes swing swing is the
>center to center connection and elasticity of tension and release
>between two moving
>bodies. That a leader can anchor and a follower sit into that anchor
>while both expressing rhythm, only to release all that stored energy, is one
>of the most glorious of all kinetic actions."
>
>Yes he talks about the music as a catalist but the essense is this
>elastic conection with kinetic exchange between partners. Some people
>call it "pulse". If you don't have it, transmit it, it is difficult to
>describe/teach it to others. When you do have it going with both (it
>takes two) then it is as John says "glorious".
>
Owing to netiquette, I can't post John's email. But, let me post a couple of
his thoughts:
I sent John your first post with the question, "Who is correct?" John
responds: "Actually you are both right. Though I take great issue with
Chris' statement that music is merely a vessel for movement. Music is first
and foremost the motivating factor in rhythmic movement."
"The essay is a commentary on the physicality and kineticism of West Coast
Swing, citing the lack of stretch and release that I say is the essence of
swing. But I do, in fact, think the catalyst for that loss is the breadth
of musical genres that we now dance to."
Mike Corbett
John later suggests physicality and kineticism that comes from stretch
and release is not being taught enough. Perhaps (for some
instructors) this is because they have chosen to teach steps and
interpretation before technique. Divergent music may serve as a
catalyst for such a demand from customers.
It's a precarious line we walk between teaching people to dance and
selling dance lessons. It's often far easier to provide the product
people think they need than the products we know they actually need.
Mike Corbett
Ed Jay
David, with all due respect, and while I agree with your comments re 'the
mix,' I think your post misses the mark.
>Generally, I'm in agreement with Festa. But that doesn't mean I agree
>with those who claim WCS can only be properly done to music that
>"swings". That would leave out some of the greatest WCS songs ever
>recorded. "One Drop Of Love" by Ray Charles, for example, does not
>"swing". Are you telling me you can't dance WCS, and a really
>swingin' WCS, to that song?
Nobody has argued that we can't dance WCS to non-swung music. We do.
Nobody is arguing that some non-swung songs provide the vehicle for a good
swing dance. They do, as you've illustrated. The argument is more general
than you're allowing it to be. The argument is that the essence of WCS has
been lost due to the divergence of the music played.
>
>Those that yearn for the "old days" when "all the music swung" are
>thinking about a dance that hasn't been done for at least 20 years. I
>remember watching old BBtB tapes with some friends a few years ago-
>from the early '90's. Far from "classic swing", the music was what
>was then popular. I distinctly remember "The Heat Is On" by Glen Frey.
> It reminds me of that saying, "The good old days ain't what they used
>to be- and what's more, they never were".
Nobody is arguing that we get back to the old days and play music from that
era. Lord knows there's plenty of new 'blues' tunes available.
>
>Which doesn't mean I'm okay with a lot of the music played for WCS
>these days. But WCS as a dance form is unique because it is a living
>dance, evolving with the times. You're not going to force everyone to
>go back to dancing wcs to fast blues and big band music, and if you
>try, you'll just split the wcs comminity apart. Reintegrating good
>swinging music as part of a balanced mix- now THAT's a worthy goal.
>
I'm getting a bit tired of hearing how WCS is an always-evolving dance. To
my thinking, that's a mere copout. It serves only as an excuse to play any
genre music the DJ feels like playing, as long as it's in 4/4 time. I would
argue that today's WCS is not the same as yesterday's WCS. It doesn't have
the feel, the look...the essence of what WCS was and still should be. The
reason for the loss of the dance is that dancers are forced to dance to what
is played and adopt new techniques and methods to cope with the
characteristics of the music, most of which are not characteristic of WCS.
It's not an evolution of WCS. It's not because WCS is a living dance. That's
a bunch of crap. It's because we are forced to accommodate the dance to
accommodate the music.
When the DJ plays a heavy metal or Krumping song, do you feel the same dance
feel you do when dancing to Alva's Baby's Blues? James Cotton? Hell no!
Stand back and watch the dancers [trying] to dance to the stuff that's being
played. I watched a well-known local instructor dance to the 'new' music. He
was forced to 'dance to the eighths,' with a sequence of four-count patterns
with no anchoring, because the music didn't allow for it. Is that still WCS?
I don't think so. The feel and the basic pattern are missing.
John Festa is absolutely correct. The divergence of music has bastardized
WCS and robbed it of its essence.
Peter D
David, please help me out here. Why is "Mustang Sally" such a "definitive"
West Coast Swing? Even before I knew anything about the WCS it was always
referenced as a THE West Coast Swing song. My perosnal favourite is the
version by The Commitments (followed by Los Lobos' version). I cannot think
of anyother dance to dance to Mustang Sally than West Coast.
Ron N.
> dav...@aol.com scribed:
> When the DJ plays a heavy metal or Krumping song, do you feel the same dance
> feel you do when dancing to Alva's Baby's Blues? James Cotton? Hell no!
> Stand back and watch the dancers [trying] to dance to the stuff that's being
> played. I watched a well-known local instructor dance to the 'new' music. He
> was forced to 'dance to the eighths,' with a sequence of four-count patterns
> with no anchoring, because the music didn't allow for it. Is that still WCS?
> I don't think so. The feel and the basic pattern are missing.
I seem to recall a Skippy seminar several years ago where she
wanted to play with some theory and experiment on the participants.
She made up a set of basic 8-count push and pass patterns which
she said something about fitting contemporary (maybe Rap?) music
much better than standard WCS basics. I can't remenber if she also
changed the technique much for this "new dance".
> John Festa is absolutely correct. The divergence of music has bastardized
> WCS and robbed it of its essence.
Perhaps the name WCS is being used for a dance that has evolved
too much to keep the same name. We already divide up swing into
Lindy, Shag, Bal, ECS, Jive, Rock&Roll, WCS, etc.
Can those key features which make 1950 and 1980 WCS feel different
from the bulk of todays WCS be clearly documented, and should those
past dance forms or todays WCS be given a different name?
Ron N.
> Ron:
> <WCS could be evolving towards being more of a "Look at me" dance (as if
> it didn't start out that way already), perhaps losing another small
> portion of the aspect of it being a "It feels good dancing together ,
> even if no one is watching" social dance to swinging music.>
>
> It's always been a "look at me dance", the same as every other dance.
It's not the same in every other dance. Some dance forms put more
emphasis on shows and competitions than others. The frequency
of "look at me" NC2S dancing is significantly lower, perhaps due
the sparcity of NC2S competition compared to WCS and Standard
ballroom.
German Rock&Roll swing looks to be in the opposite direction, where
I think one needs something like a permit in order to attempt some
of its gymnastic basics which look completely unsuitable for social
dancing. Whereas WCS hasn't gone as far (yet?) as requiring lifts in
intermediate J&J's.
In Argentine Tango, the split between pseudo-theatrical and
non-theatrical "hug in time to the music" dancing has given rise
to internal feuds over dance form naming, and whether the other
forms are even "True Tango"(tm), or just marketing gimmicks.
memiki
Chris -- thank you for the "glorious" dance at BBB :)
Miki