Dizzy waltzing....
Owen McArdle
very much a beginner here, and I am having problems
keeping my head from spinning in the old-time/viennese
waltz - a few turns up one side of the floor and the
only thing keeping me up is my partner!
Part of it may be practise, but is there any tip/
technique which can minimise the dizziness which all
that spinning naturally starts ?
thanks,
Owen
Mike Corbett
The FAQ is a good place to start. The spinning section is at.
http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/turn_spin.html
Mike Corbett - Addison TX
If you can't enjoy yourself, enjoy somebody else. :-)
Jonathan Atkinson
meantime, the quick fix is to change direction of rotation more often. If
you dance one Natural, Change Step, one Reverse, Change step, it is unlikely
that you will experience any dizziness at all. After a few months, try
dancing two Naturals and Reverses at a time between Change Steps. Then after
a few more months, move up to three, and so forth.
Good luck.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com
"Owen McArdle" <Owen.M...@S3grp.com> wrote in message
news:3C67DD0D...@S3grp.com...
avid_dancer
> The FAQ is a good place to start. The spinning section is at.
>
> http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/turn_spin.html
Do not use this FAQ section. It pertains to free spins.
Mike Corbett
wrote:
How helpful. Yes that specific section is about free spins. Just go
to the FAQ at http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/index.html and
browse "Balance and Turning" section.
Such things as "spotting" "practice" and alternating turn direction
are all good information.
avid_dancer
>
> very much a beginner here, and I am having problems
> keeping my head from spinning in the old-time/viennese
> waltz - a few turns up one side of the floor and the
> only thing keeping me up is my partner!
I feel for your partner, unless your partner is at
the same beginner level, in which case I feel for you
both.
> Part of it may be practise, but is there any tip/
> technique which can minimise the dizziness which all
> that spinning naturally starts ?
Viennese motion is far less intuitive than one would
think. It's not simply grabbing onto each other and
rotating as hard as possible. And it's a lot less
spinning than you think it is, and far more gentle
as well. Don't bother practicing until you take some
private lessons from some decent IS instructor, since
you'd just be torturing each other further. Be
aware that many, many, IS and AS instructors are awful
at this and will offer you bad advice by showing you
the brute-force way. If real lessons are out of your
reach, at least get some video lessons.
Many Gold level International Waltz dancers can't do a
decent Bronze level Vienesse Waltz, so don't think
simplicity means easy.
In the mean time, try doing AS Waltz elongated two-way box
turns (right box, change step, left box, change step),
working on sliding the feet rather than stepping and
continually moving on track.
Owen McArdle
thanks for the suggestions - practise is yer only man,
as they say, and that'll be the long term solution.
I had in fact read the FAQ before posting - I find it's
a good habit, always have - and could find no short-term
solution along the lines of 'spin on one little toe,
looking at your partner with your left eye, the LOD
with your right and breathe through your left nostril
slowly'....
Guess I'll just have to practise, and keep a barf-bag
in my back pocket :-)
Oh, and as for:
avid_dancer wrote:
> I feel for your partner, unless your partner is at
> the same beginner level, in which case I feel for you
> both.
Yep, we're both beginners, and she's having fun keeping
me upright, at about 20cm taller and 40kg more than her!
On the plus side, for most other dances I can hold my
own quite well.
thanks for all the help,
Owen
--
e-mail address invalid - anti-spam measure :-)
Peter Renzland
> thanks for the suggestions - practise is yer only man,
> as they say, and that'll be the long term solution.
Practice is only good if you practice it right.
> Guess I'll just have to practise, and keep a barf-bag
> in my back pocket :-)
I disagree. You are much better off staying well below
your dizzy-threshold.
My advice is to find a good Alpine or Scandinavian dance
teacher.
Other than that ...
1. Do you get car sick?
1.1 No. Never. not even as a passenger in the back seat with
a European driver.
1.2 No. Never. I *am* a European driver.
1.3 Sometimes as a pasenger.
1.4 Often. ==> forget old-time Waltz
1.5 Often even when driving. ==> really forget old-time Waltz
Where do you live?
What music do you dance to?
Many Irish bands play Waltzes too fast. Often over 65 mpm.
Many Irish dancers can't do turning waltzes for this reason.
(So they do this dorky zig-zag thing without ever doing a single
turn. It's disgusting, and it's the sort of thing that gets
one ejected from a Ballroom in Vienna. Nobody really cares
how strangely someone dances so long as they don't interfere
with the traffic. Unfortunately this zigzag thing is like
having severely drunk drivers on the highway who not only
change lanes constantly, but also back up into traffic while
doing so. Sorry about that outburst. Back to the topic. :-)
I suggest you get recordings of American traditional Waltzes
in a tempo range of 40 to 50 mpm. Most traditional American
Waltzes are in that range.
When you are dancing in a ballroom, you need to go with the
flow. Faster lanes outside, like horses. So learn to just
travel in promenade hold. Then, you can do mostly promenade
and to occasional turns. You should be able to do more and
more turns as you get the hang of it. But always stay in
control. (If you can't stay in your lane, you're out of
control). If you must slow down, move towards the centre.
You might also want to consider learning to do a Schottische.
All traditional turning dances have the same principles in
the turn. The Schottsche turns less and has simpler footwork.
And the music is slower than what I suspect you encounter
at your Waltzes.
> Yep, we're both beginners, and she's having fun keeping
> me upright, at about 20cm taller and 40kg more than her!
> On the plus side, for most other dances I can hold my
> own quite well.
You need to make sure that you can turn alone. Make
absolutely sure you have your own balance.
Good, solid posture -- upper body vertical. That includes
your head. Especially your head. Don't ever tilt your head
to look down. (Or up or sideways.)
Your eyes should be level (like car headlights. :-)
Don't even think about looking *down* on your partner.
And she must do the same. Looking down or up will
make you sick.
Don't focus too much on things or walls, just generally look
forward in your direction of travel (especially when your nose
points that way), as you would when driving. You can't spot
on your partner -- you cant see her. O.K. Use your peripheral
vision. And learn to move your eyes (down) without moving
your head.
Make sure your joints are unlocked, so they act as springs and
you can move smoothly. And really move with the music. Feel
the music in your bones. It always feels the same at the same
point in the turn. I call this "leaning on the music".
Try this exercise -- with the right posture, by yourself, put your
arms in front of you, like a hoop, fingers almost touching (you
can see your palms). Now just step around in a small circle
(stay inside the hoop). Start with Waltz music, but only take
a step on the "1". Don't overdo it. Don't do it long. Do it
often. Move your body and let your feet follow under you.
One more thing. Try to find an excellent dancer close to your
size, to get "the feeling". It is essential to get the feeling.
Once you have experienced it, everything will be undescribably
easier.
All this applies to your partner too. She must stay centred,
and never tilt her head back to look at your eyes, and she must
not stretch to reach up, but simply hold on lower. And neither
of you must be a passenger in the dance. Be resulute.
Anything you don't like, please disregard it. Whatever you do,
don't be offended. (But don't pick up that zigzag habit either.:)
Turning dances are the best.
Oh, and once you get the hang of it, then practice. :-)
--
Peter Renzland TORONTO _@_ {)/' (}, @ `\@ {)/'
www.dancing.org Canada /\ /\_._,(_/ ()_/7 /\_._,(_\
TraditionalSocialDancing. ' \ /_\ /_\ /) /\ /_\
Je danse, donc je suis. . /) /( / )( \ ' ) ( `
Mike Corbett
Renzland) wrote:
>Owen McArdle wrote on Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:17:31 +0000:
>
>> thanks for the suggestions - practise is yer only man,
>> as they say, and that'll be the long term solution.
>
>Practice is only good if you practice it right.
More to the point, practice does not make perfect. Practice makes
permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. :-)
>
>> Guess I'll just have to practise, and keep a barf-bag
>> in my back pocket :-)
>
>I disagree. You are much better off staying well below
>your dizzy-threshold.
Depends on the situation. While social dancing, I agree with Peter.
Perhaps even in most formal practice with your partner, I might agree
but it would be a big mistake to interpret "practice" as only formal
practice with a partner.
Owen, as a beginner, certainly needs good instruction in proper
technique. My comments assume he is aware of the need and in pursuit
thereof. However, his question here is about avoiding dizziness. As
such my direct comments have been limited to his instant context.
>
>Other than that ...
>
>1. Do you get car sick?
>
> 1.1 No. Never. not even as a passenger in the back seat with
> a European driver.
> 1.2 No. Never. I *am* a European driver.
> 1.3 Sometimes as a pasenger.
> 1.4 Often. ==> forget old-time Waltz
> 1.5 Often even when driving. ==> really forget old-time Waltz
Pretty good generic advice but it's only good relative to your level
of motivation. The reason practice is so important for avoiding
dizziness is because the human body can be trained to mitigate and
even overcome its tendency toward dizziness.
Many of the things one can practice alone will be of great assistance
to this end, regardless of the dance you have in mind.
The big caution I would insert is this. One of the biggest obstacles
to confident competent turning ability has nothing to do with training
the body to avoid dizziness but rather with the absence of foot
slippage. Many attempt to accomplish repeated turns by stepping
through them with minimal or no foot slippage. Practicing foot
slippage and building the foot and ankle strength to facilitate it can
also be done alone. I still do it every day. :-)
It's pretty difficult to keep the body upright when the feet are glued
to the floor. :-)
Warren J. Dew
Lots of good advice in other posts. I would add that you want to keep the body
rotation smooth - it's irregular rotation that really makes the fluid slosh
around in the inner ear.
Mike Corbett, apropos of this:
One of the biggest obstacles to confident competent
turning ability has nothing to do with training the
body to avoid dizziness but rather with the absence
of foot slippage. Many attempt to accomplish repeated
turns by stepping through them with minimal or no foot
slippage.
I believe what Mike is getting at here is that if you do all the turn between
footfalls, and don't pivot the feet at all while over them, you may be starting
and stopping the rotation on every beat. That's a lot of stopping and
starting, and the resultant irregular rotation could be part of the problem.
On the other hand, one doesn't have to pivot the feet so much that they are
turning as continuously as the body, either. Part of the difference between a
smoothly rotating body and periodically pivoting feet can be taken up in the
hip joint. Viennese waltz probably requires some of each.
Warren J. Dew
Powderhouse Software
avid_dancer
> turn. It's disgusting, and it's the sort of thing that gets
> one ejected from a Ballroom in Vienna. Nobody really cares
> how strangely someone dances so long as they don't interfere
> with the traffic. Unfortunately this zigzag thing is like
> having severely drunk drivers on the highway who not only
> change lanes constantly, but also back up into traffic while
> doing so. Sorry about that outburst. Back to the topic. :-)
Wow. They actually have the dance police out at the Viennese balls,
for censuring poor technique! You make the Austrians/Germans out as
living up to their anal reputation. I can see both merit and demerit
in the heavy-handedness.
> You might also want to consider learning to do a Schottische.
> All traditional turning dances have the same principles in
> the turn. The Schottsche turns less and has simpler footwork.
> And the music is slower than what I suspect you encounter
> at your Waltzes.
Don't know what the Schottische is but generic Polka has a lot of
similarity to VW. Have you noticed that decent VW dancers tend to do
Polka (rotational basics) exceeding well?
> You need to make sure that you can turn alone. Make
> absolutely sure you have your own balance.
>
> Good, solid posture -- upper body vertical. That includes
> your head. Especially your head. Don't ever tilt your head
> to look down. (Or up or sideways.)
Actually, this is a bad technique for VW (and Polka). Because these
are swinging dances, there are natural (minor) tilt in the head,
proportional to the body swing (hence not vertical). Looking down or
up disproportionately is certainly a no-no, but being artificially
stiff is just as bad. I know AS VW instructors who dance the
rotations vertical and at first glance this look so cool/good. But
if one really does VW, then one realizes the ridiculous G-forces the
partners are constantly pulling... like doing Fleckerls around the
floor. Ouch! And not sustainable.
A lot of IS VW pros do the Viennese (Natural) drive with head very
focused (a little up) DW, which goes along with the massive body
shape used on the drive. No "spin" here until the swing/coast!
Hence, a lot of the dizzy-reduction schemes offered in this thread
are mostly useful for Fleckerls.
> Your eyes should be level (like car headlights. :-)
> Don't even think about looking *down* on your partner.
> And she must do the same. Looking down or up will
> make you sick.
Eyes will move up and down a bit, proportionate with the body
swing. IS VW partners never look at each other doing the basics.
If anything, they look far away from each other at certain points.
> Don't focus too much on things or walls, just generally look
> forward in your direction of travel (especially when your nose
> points that way), as you would when driving. You can't spot
> on your partner -- you cant see her. O.K. Use your peripheral
> vision. And learn to move your eyes (down) without moving
> your head.
Nose follows left toes is a reasonable rule of thumb. But beware
that the left toes often point in a direction that is quite
unobvious.
> One more thing. Try to find an excellent dancer close to your
> size, to get "the feeling". It is essential to get the feeling.
> Once you have experienced it, everything will be undescribably
> easier.
This may be the most unintuitive thing you'll ever experience,
if the experience partner is doing the right thing. It was for
me.
If/when you identify with the statement that IS VW basics is less
about spins than the longitudinal extension and compression of the
body, then you are using a decent technique.
> All this applies to your partner too. She must stay centred,
> and never tilt her head back to look at your eyes, and she must
> not stretch to reach up, but simply hold on lower. And neither
Stretch with shape is what the Viennesse drive is all about.
Compression/expansion cycles is a very comfortable thing for the
body to do.
> of you must be a passenger in the dance. Be resulute.
This is definitely true.
> Turning dances are the best.
> Oh, and once you get the hang of it, then practice. :-)
But finding the right thing to practice is a struggle of itself.
Richard Maurer
I had in fact read the FAQ before posting - I find it's
a good habit, always have - and could find no short-term
solution along the lines of 'spin on one little toe,
looking at your partner with your left eye, the LOD
with your right and breathe through your left nostril
slowly'.... >>
There have been a few long threads on dizzy.
Use Google Groups within rec.arts.dance and search for "dizzy"
and maybe "spotting". Someone always mentions
spotting, but I don't think anyone has mentioned
the left nostril before.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ahalurker
> << [Owen McArdle]
> I had in fact read the FAQ before posting - I find it's
> a good habit, always have - and could find no short-term
> solution along the lines of 'spin on one little toe,
> looking at your partner with your left eye, the LOD
> with your right and breathe through your left nostril
> slowly'.... >>
>
>
> There have been a few long threads on dizzy.
> Use Google Groups within rec.arts.dance and search for "dizzy"
> and maybe "spotting". Someone always mentions
> spotting, but I don't think anyone has mentioned
> the left nostril before.
Guys, you all seem to forget that the very idea of the original
Viennese Waltz is to make the lady dizzy and meek :-)
Ladies, if you are aware of this ploy, please keep in mind that this
is pure physiology. This is your inner ear, which is in charge of
balance, that fails you. Like with other bodily functions, you can
either train it or cheat it.
It is not uncommon that the second way is the only option. For
example, despite all years of persitent practicing I cannot drink in
more than one pitcher of beer.
This thread already shows several good advises. Let me add 2 cents
worth of old memories, towards the decreasing of chaotic rotation in
Iternational Viennese Waltz.
(1) A common beginner's mistake to stay far from the partner
deteriorates VW more than any other dances. By simply staying in
close contact you will keep your ear from making big circles.
I am aware that close bodily contact is ...uh... foreign? to Americal
social dancing. Understandably. Stay as close as you can afford, but
stand straight, DON'T stick your hindquarters away while keeping the
torsos close.
Don't bend back either, as you might see ladies in advanced couples
do. Most probably, this is not what you see and not what you are
trying to do.
(2) As a beginner, you probably are not doing much progression along
the Line of Dance. Do this (i.e., don't do it), but consciously: When
you go BACKWARDS on "1" (or on "4"), take the second step ("2" or "5")
very small. In fact, on the left turn, you just put heel to heel.
Books say that at this moment you are on the inside of the rotation
and you must give way for your partner go around you. This is also a
good moment to stop panic and relax (for two beats only, though).
(3) Don't think that all your effort in VW is to be put into rotation
(or running around the partner (in turns), as I often see during dance
parties).
You are only making one full turn on 6 counts!
To get a good feeling of the amount of easy rotation, you may practice
the simple exercises (done alone) below:
Exercise 3.1.
On 1, step forward R foot, while turning 180 deg.;
somewhere between 2 and 3 tap LF slightly behind your RF.
On 4 step backward LF while turning the second half;
somewhere between 5 and 6 tap RF beside your LF.
At this moment the goal is to keep the balance: do weightless tap,
don't fall on the tapping foot. Repeat until confident.
You may do spotting here, if you wish.
Exercise 3.2:
Do the same being aware that your knees are slightly bent almost all
the time. Only when the heel (or toe) hits the floor on counts 1 or 4
the knees straighten momentarily, almost immediately they flex softly.
You may already have heard about correct rises and falls, footwork,
etc.
Among other technical things, soft knees deliver a good deal of slack
to accomodate the partner in close quarters, which is especially
important and difficult in rotating steps in VW, in spin/pivot turns,
etc.
Exercise 3.3:
Do the same, but your your arms as gracefully and relaxed as you can
in the shape of letter C, level with your shoulders; all the time look
at your left palm, at the same time be aware of all these walls
rotating around you. Make these walls fly passing your left palm
smoothly an evenly, without stops and jerks.
Of course, fast waltzes are not necessarily of uniform speed, but
making them smooth and uniform you gain control over them. Later you
may go wild with the music, but this will be controllable, not
chaotic.
...
Now take your partner and go to your teacher, listen to him, do your
Waltz steps while trying to restore the feelings of balance, slackness
and smooth rotation from the exercises above.
That's NOT all, folks!
;mikalai
''''
Peter Renzland
> Exercise 3.3:
> Do the same, but your your arms as gracefully and relaxed as you can
> in the shape of letter C, level with your shoulders; all the time look
> at your left palm, at the same time be aware of all these walls
> rotating around you. Make these walls fly passing your left palm
> smoothly an evenly, without stops and jerks.
Interesting. I say *right* palm. :-)
Right palm means looking where you're heading. Left palm means
trailing behind (pointing with your right ear, rather than your
nose). This is a big problem for women who keep looking over their
partner's right shoulder. This results in a side-ways, backward
bias which is a major cause of dizziness.
(And I'm careful to avoid commenting on 20th century "VW" doctrine.)
(Remember that the OP also said "old time Waltz".)
(And some folks seem to have forgotten about the extra 20 cm and
40 kg in their comments.)
People did all sorts of turning dances for a long, long time,
without getting dizzy, and without the need for complicated
instruction.
In fact, one reason the established dancing masters were so furious
about the ancient Waltz being introduced to their clients was that
instead of interminable (and lucrative) step-wise instruction, the
dancers could "learn to Waltz in 5 minutes and have great fun dancing
all night'.
One suggestion that I forgot to include in my earlier post is to
learn to do a traditional Country Dance (Square, Contra, Ceili)
Swing. This is a turn where couples step outside each other,
and each moving forward, turn together like roman candles.
Start with walking step, then learn the buzz step.
This, and the one-step turn need to be mastered to get comfortable
with the notion of turning smoothly. This is worth learning well,
since it is one element. There are dances that only turn but don't
travel, such as the traditional Zwiefache.
But the Waltz (and Polka, etc.) travel as well as turn. Depending on
style, this means doing alternating U-(half)-turns IYKWIM.
--
Peter Renzland 416 323-1300 _@_ {)/' (}, @ `\@ {)/'
www.dancing.org TORONTO /\ /\_._,(_/ ()_/7 /\_._,(_\
Traditional Social Dancing. ' \ /_\ /_\ /) /\ /_\
Owen McArdle
Peter Renzland wrote:
....
>
> One suggestion that I forgot to include in my earlier post is to
> learn to do a traditional Country Dance (Square, Contra, Ceili)
> Swing.
Funnily enough, I can do a Ceili swing as hard as I want, and not
have any problem with dizziness at all - and more surprisingly without
taking the ankles off all and sundry in the meantime! And for this
I mean a full-on, full-speed, fly-around each other as fast as
ye can go swing, no gentle rotation there :-)
With all the tips last night's lesson went much better for me -
it was my partner who was having the dizziness problem initially.
Hearing this, I sort of added some more of the tips to my *lead* as
well as my own movement, and she evened out on the next turn around
the room, so that we both had a very enjoyable time.
Thanks again all, and here's hoping I can
Owen McArdle
Owen McArdle wrote:
> Thanks again all, and here's hoping I can
finish my next post before I hit 'send'.....
I meant to say 'pass on the tips to another beginner someday'
Owen