Shall we dance?
Larry Gantman
to dance. She said, "No, I don't like this song!," and the man slithered
off. I said, "You're not going to dance?" She said, "No, I don't like that
song!" I said, "Are you going to find him and ask him to dance later?" She
said, "No, he'll come and ask me again."
Thirty minutes later I was speaking with a well known, talented dancer I
know who was visiting from out of town He said, "I'm really surprised with
the women around here--three women have turned me down already and the night
is just beginning."
Later in the evening, after he had many enjoyable dances, I asked him if the
other women at the dance had redeemed those with poor manners. He said,
"They're on my permanent 'Don't dance!' list.
What has happened to the dictum, "It's only three minutes, so dance!"?
Larry Gantman
My Name is Legion
Sometimes it seems women are reading a lot more into a request for a
dance than just that. We're not asking you if you will have our
child. It's just a dance. They have no idea how vulnerable most
guys feel when they request a dance. The only acceptable excuse is
fatigue. Most guys will be aware of the fact that you have just
finished a quick stop followed by a ch cha followed by a triple swing.
But like you said it would be nice if they sought him out later for a
dance when they have reuperated. I make it a point during and evening
to ask a few women who aren't getting out on the floor to dance. On
the other hand most men are quite delighted whenever we are asked.
Mike Corbett
<pay...@verizon.net> wrote:
I will occasionally turn down dances but when I do so, I give a reason
and indicate a willingness to dance with the person later. Not liking
the song is a perfectly good reason, IMO. However, I will go to the
effort to seek out the person for a dance later. I'm not always
successful in finding them before one of us leaves for the night.
People who turn down dance invitations without giving a reason and
indicating their willingness to dance with me later or under different
circumstances go on MY "don't ask" list. They'll have to ask ME for
any future dance.
I despise the behavior of those who will give phony excuses when they
actually do not want to dance with a particular person. Just say "No,
thank you." Most of us know this means. "Please take this refusal
personally. I don't want to dance with YOU."
The above remarks are stated in the context of venues where dancers go
to dance with dancers, NOT in the context of a purely public night
club setting.
Mike Corbett
Peter D
news:f92oj2t1el45mm3hu...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:17:00 GMT, "Larry Gantman"
> <pay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Recently, at a local dance, I was speaking with a woman when a man asked
>>her
>>to dance. She said, "No, I don't like this song!," and the man slithered
>>off. I said, "You're not going to dance?" She said, "No, I don't like
>>that
>>song!" I said, "Are you going to find him and ask him to dance later?"
>>She
>>said, "No, he'll come and ask me again."
It sounds like it may have been a normal routine for him and her -- she said
no, he came and asked again later. If that's the case, no harm done. If she
just assumed he would, and he didn't, I guess she's sol. :-)
>>Thirty minutes later I was speaking with a well known, talented dancer I
>>know who was visiting from out of town He said, "I'm really surprised
>>with
>>the women around here--three women have turned me down already and the
>>night
>>is just beginning."
>>
>>Later in the evening, after he had many enjoyable dances, I asked him if
>>the
>>other women at the dance had redeemed those with poor manners. He said,
>>"They're on my permanent 'Don't dance!' list.
I don't know the fellow, but that sounds awful close to a bruised ego that
should get itself a thicker skin. So they said "no". Big deal. Get over it.
Allow that they are allowed to say "no" and ask again. This assumes what
hasn't been said, namely that they weren't overtly rude (no, ya big jerk!),
didn't say no to him and then go ask somoene else to dance, etc. It isn't
rude for a woman to simply say "no", so in the absence of any more
information I disagree with your judgement that they had "poor manners".
>>What has happened to the dictum, "It's only three minutes, so dance!"?
Never heard of it. Though prior to my daughter's first high school dance
they had a teacher explain to all the girls that it was "rude' to say "no"
to a boy. The boys had fragile egos and might be wounded for life if a girl
didn't want to dance with them. She asked me my opinion and I told her that
any system that requires a young woman to never say no to a young man is an
insult to her nad her peers wasn't going to cause those boys to grow up
respectful or listening to women. I told her to dance with who she wanted
and politely refuse who she didn't want. I think I did the right thing.
> I will occasionally turn down dances but when I do so, I give a reason
> and indicate a willingness to dance with the person later.
Me too. I think it's the only way to deal with it. No-one should feel they
have to dance -- I mean it's not like it's a job or a punishment! I don't
agree with any 'rule' that says a person _must_ dnace or that it's rude to
say "no". It's always OK to refuse a dance. That said, offering an
explanation for why and committing to a dance later should suffice for all
but the most easily brusied of egos. I hand't really thought about it but
not liking a song is a fine reason to refuse.
Icono Clast
> I will occasionally turn down dances but when I do so, I give a
> reason and indicate a willingness to dance with the person later.
I NEVER say "No!" Many is the time I'd like to but I don't. This
evening I was asked "Do you . . ?" and responded "Very poorly. If you
can't find someone else, I will". When I saw her dancing the number
by herself, I joined her apologizing for my lack of skill. Had she
simply asked me to dance, I would have answered "I will, but I'm not
very good at it. You'd probably be happier with someone else".
> Not liking the song is a perfectly good reason,
When I'm turned down, all I hear is "No!" The words used to say "No!"
are irrelevant. The end result is we don't dance because the asked
said "No!" As you suggest, when the refusal is covered by asking me
later, all's forgiven and forgotten.
> People who turn down dance invitations without giving a reason and
> indicating their willingness to dance with me later or under
> different circumstances go on MY "don't ask" list. They'll have
> to ask ME for any future dance.
My "don't ask" list is numerically based as I don't hear the words
used to say "No!" I do not have a "don't dance" list because I'll
dance with anyone who'll dance with me. Not long ago, one on my
"don't ask" list gave me a big smile that appeared, and proved, to be
an invitation to dance during which we had a very nice conversation.
> I despise the behavior of those who will give phony excuses when
> they actually do not want to dance with a particular person. Just
> say "No, thank you." Most of us know this means. "Please take
> this refusal personally. I don't want to dance with YOU."
>
> The above remarks are stated in the context of venues where
> dancers go to dance with dancers, NOT in the context of a purely
> public night club setting.
Peter D said:
> It's always OK to refuse a dance.
Do you remember what it's like to be fifteen years old, crossing the
gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the world upon you, to ask a girl to
dance who then, perhaps politely, says "No!" and you crawl back
across the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the word upon you, to take a
seat? I do. Vividly. I NEVER say "No!"
This subject has been oft-discussed under a variety of Subjects. A
quick search revealed these:
Never say "No!"
... Kirsten L. Allen "If a man asks you to dance, you NEVER say no!"
It's a good rule to follow. During a beginners' class (lakewd@onramp ...
rec.arts.dance - May 7 1998, 1:29 pm by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
please say "no, thanks"
... I'm resting. My feet hurt. Not right now. etc. She did not say
"no." This is one of the problems with inter-gender communication. ...
rec.arts.dance - Jun 23 1998, 9:57 am by Icono Clast - 53 messages -
22 authors
Never say "No!"
... Date: 06-03-96 (03:18) From: ICONO CLAST To: TERRY ROBERTS
Subj: Never say "No!" --- IC> If you ever ...
rec.arts.dance - May 7 1998, 3:35 pm by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
Never say "No!"
... Well, I've been thinking of this thread while out dancing
recently, and have decided
there is simply no way to say no to a dance without the guys having
hurt ...
rec.arts.dance - May 7 1998, 12:29 pm by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
please say "no, thanks"
... There is a judge who treats me with a minimum of courtesy if I am
the first to say
something, will not dance with me, but has been the only judge to
place me ...
rec.arts.dance - Jun 30 1998, 12:35 pm by Icono Clast - 53 messages -
22 authors
Never say "No!"
... My original post was in response to someone who said "If they
(professionals) will
dance with me, who in the hell are you to say no?" This got my
hackles up ...
rec.arts.dance - May 9 1998, 4:35 pm by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
Can't Say "No!"
The day was very hot and I sweat, and drank water, the day long in an
amusement park, subjecting myself to the physical forces and
wind-blowing of roller ...
rec.arts.dance - Jun 27 1999, 8:28 am by Icono Clast - 1 message - 1
author
please say "no, thanks"
Valerie Stark posts that she'll turn down "someone who dances too far
above" her "level". I'm not Valerie, and I probably wouldn ...
rec.arts.dance - Jun 24 1998, 7:31 am by Icono Clast - 53 messages -
22 authors
Never say "No!"
Who Cares? If someone says no, then go find someone else. Of course
it is not an ego blow to be turned down, but aren't we stronger
people than that? ...
rec.arts.dance - May 8 1998, 1:13 am by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
Never say "No!"
... for something other than a pleasant dance experience. No argument
from me. ---- Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet ...
rec.arts.dance - May 9 1998, 3:42 pm by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
Never say "No!"
... to dance. In my peripheral vision, I could see her vigorously
shaking her head and mouthing "No!" so he abided by her wish. Didn ...
rec.arts.dance - May 7 1998, 8:49 am by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
Never say "No!"
Interesting. I finally check back in to rad and find my favorite
recurring topic. My fault. I'm sorry. Because rebroaching this ...
rec.arts.dance - May 9 1998, 2:43 pm by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
Never say "No!"
And really, do you want to dance with a woman who would rather not
dance with you, but accepts out of politeness? Yes! And I've ...
rec.arts.dance - May 9 1998, 10:41 am by ICl...@JPS.net - 49 messages
- 17 authors
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
A San Franciscan who'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Peter D
news:453ca0b3$0$19603$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> Mike Corbett wrote:
>> I will occasionally turn down dances but when I do so, I give a
>> reason and indicate a willingness to dance with the person later.
>
> I NEVER say "No!" Many is the time I'd like to but I don't. This
> evening I was asked "Do you . . ?" and responded "Very poorly. If you
> can't find someone else, I will". When I saw her dancing the number
> by herself, I joined her apologizing for my lack of skill. Had she simply
> asked me to dance, I would have answered "I will, but I'm not very good at
> it. You'd probably be happier with someone else".
>
>> Not liking the song is a perfectly good reason,
>
> When I'm turned down, all I hear is "No!" The words used to say "No!"
> are irrelevant.
No, they're not. There is an actual difference between "No, I'm tired right
now. But I'd move to dance with you after I've rested." and "No. I don't
like you. Get lost!" and "No. I want to dance with another perosn , not
you." If you don't see the difference and you regard all as equal then you
don't get it.
> The end result is we don't dance because the asked
> said "No!" As you suggest, when the refusal is covered by asking me
> later, all's forgiven and forgotten.
"Forgiven and forgotten"? OMG. Such fragile egos! Someone said "no" to a
dance not "no" to saving your life or having your baby or your proposal of
marriage. Get yourself some thicker skin, Ike!
> Peter D said:
>> It's always OK to refuse a dance.
>
> Do you remember what it's like to be fifteen years old, crossing the
> gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the world upon you, to ask a girl to
> dance who then, perhaps politely, says "No!" and you crawl back
> across the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the word upon you, to take a
> seat? I do. Vividly. I NEVER say "No!"
Well, Ike, I'm not entirely surprised that you don't get what this father
was helping his daughter learn, that her word and wants was as valid as any
males, and that just because an adult told her there was a 'rule' that
required her as a female to accede to the wishes of a male regardless of her
personal desires, she whould (politely) express her own perosnal desires and
require others to respect them. She wasn't there for the benefit of the
young men. She was there to dance with whomever she wanted to -- and thus
not dance with whomever she didn't want to.
My daughter learned that her word and wishes are worthy of respect, that
noble and honourable young men will honour and respect her. Ignoble ones
won't.
Now addressing your trauma that you still haven't got over...
The eyes of the world are not on you. I don't even think you can imagine
that they are. It's like the first job interview or the first communion or
the first time you read something you've written to the class. You either do
it or you don't. And the world goes on. And you learn something. Some learn
that not everything they want to happen will. Finally, you're much older. Me
much matruer and deal with it.
> This subject has been oft-discussed under a variety of Subjects. A quick
> search revealed these:
>
> Never say "No!"
> ... Kirsten L. Allen "If a man asks you to dance, you NEVER say no!"
I disagree. ALWAYS politely say exactly what you want/wish -- and require
others to respect that.
> Never say "No!"
> ... My original post was in response to someone who said "If they
> (professionals) will dance with me, who in the hell are you to say no?"
I dont' have the whole message, but taken as this statement only my
immediate thought was, "What Arrogance!"
trish_...@hotmail.com
> Recently, at a local dance, I was speaking with a woman when a man asked her
> to dance. She said, "No, I don't like this song!," and the man slithered
> off. I said, "You're not going to dance?" She said, "No, I don't like that
> song!" I said, "Are you going to find him and ask him to dance later?" She
> said, "No, he'll come and ask me again."
First of all, Larry, I just want to say that it's good to see you out
again even if you're not dancing yet. :^)))
Secondly, the paranoid in me has to wonder if you're talking about me
since we were talking last week at Hacienda, LOL...???
Third, I feel this topic has pretty much been exhausted in RAD in the
past, and yet here it is again... But since you brought it up I thought
I'd play devil's advocate on the subject.
An invitation to dance is NOT, IMO, a sacred right or obligation.
I feel I respect and honor invitations to dance whenever and as often
as possible. If I say no, there is a reason, which I may or may not be
able to communicate. I try to make it up to the asker but if I don't
for whatever reason, or if I can't give them the reason at the time, I
expect them to be adults about it and understand. If they can't, well,
that's too bad and if I'm crossed off of someone's list, that's their
loss.
But honestly, lately I have been questioning the validity of always
saying yes.
There are a few people out there who, for whatever reasons, I really
dislike dancing with, I find it distasteful, plain and simple. Either I
dislike them personally or there is something about them that just
bothers me. And yet, if they ask me, and they do, I say yes and spend
the next 3 minutes trying to make the best of it, wondering why the
he** I said yes and cursing my good nature for accepting. Am I giving
them the best dance possible? Probably not, but why should I want to do
anything that might encourage them to ask me again? Besides, for
whatever reason, their dancing doesn't inspire partnership, creativity,
give and take, musicality, or anything of the kind. Or worse, there is
something about THEM, an indefinable yuck factor, that comes into play.
IOW, I don't enjoy myself at all and I can't possibly think that they
enjoy the dance, either. And yet they still ask. And according to you,
Ike and others, I'm supposed to dance with them every time they ask.
Really??? Why???
Remember, devil's advocate - that' means going to the extreme, keep
that in mind when you respond. Besides, the above is JMO as of today.
Tomorrow may be different.
T
Bob Wheatley
news:1161629661....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I don't think there is any validity to "always" having to say yes.
One persons misery ought not be anothers joy.
There are many reasons why it may be okay to say no to an invitation to
dance. I do think we owe what we do (partner dancing) a good dose of
deference to others and good manners and "no" should be in an extreme
minority, but that doesn't mean that there aren't reasonable and legitimate
situations for denying said invitations.
> Remember, devil's advocate - that' means going to the extreme, keep
> that in mind when you respond. Besides, the above is JMO as of today.
> Tomorrow may be different.
Women....! :>)
Bob Wheatley
christin...@hotmail.com
> I feel I respect and honor invitations to dance whenever and as often
> as possible. If I say no, there is a reason, which I may or may not be
> able to communicate. I try to make it up to the asker but if I don't
> for whatever reason, or if I can't give them the reason at the time, I
> expect them to be adults about it and understand. If they can't, well,
> that's too bad and if I'm crossed off of someone's list, that's their
> loss.
>
> But honestly, lately I have been questioning the validity of always
> saying yes.
>
this:
Personally, I rarely turn down a dance. I am fairly energetic and enjoy
most songs and most dance partners. But if there is someone I really
don't want to dance with (usually because he gets his sweat on me or
yanks my arm out of the socket) I can usually avoid being asked by
busying myself in conversation with someone else or going to the bar to
get a drink or something. But there is nothing wrong with saying, "No
thank you." You are not obligated to do anything you are uncomfortable
with.
Between work, household chores, exercise, paying bills, and trying to
maintain family relationships and friendships, not to mention driving
back and forth between work, home and dancing, there are so few
precious minutes left in the day, that why should you repeatedly spend
time dancing with someone whose company you know you don't enjoy? If we
compared dance invitations to sales pitches for products we often don't
want or can't afford, I don't think people would say that you are
obligated to buy every product that someone is trying to sell you.
(Yes, I work in marketing.)
When I am turned down for a dance (which definitely happens to women as
well, contrary to what some of the male posters here have hinted at), I
assume that either the man was tired (I have several friends with
injuries or diseases that require them to rest between dances), does
not enjoy the song, is afraid to dance with a tall woman, wants to
catch up with his friends in attendance, was hoping to dance with a
superior dancer (sometimes that superior dancer is you, Trish), or is
intimidated because he perceives my level of dancing to be above his. I
even have some male friends who have quite honestly admitted that they
are trying to save more of their dancing time for the single women in
attendance with the hopes of meeting someone to date (in other words,
"if I know you have a husband or boyfriend, you aren't high on my
list").
If the same person turns me down more than once and never asks me for a
dance, I do get the point, and I don't ask again, figuring that the
answer will be the same. If I am turned down by several men at the same
dance, I try to determine if there is anything I am doing (unhappy
facial expression, unwelcoming body language, inappropriate clothing,
excessive sweat, etc.) that may be dissuading them. Sometimes, I make
a mental note that I need to work on particular aspects of my dancing
to improve my dance desirability. And at some dances, I decide it is
not worth my effort to attend again if it is obvious that the people
there tend to dance primarily with the people in their own social or
competitive circle.
I guess my point is that no one is owed anything in life or in dancing.
It is all a rather intricate social game. People have all different
reasons for dancing and different qualities they are looking for in a
dance. If someone can't take the heat, they should get out of the
kitchen! If a man is wondering why he gets turned down or is not being
invited to dance, he can go through an analysis of what kind of
image/energy he is giving off, and the various possibilities about why
the lady doesn't want to dance. To always assume it is because she is
rude, is just...well, rude.
Christine Elowitt
Larry Gantman
>> Recently, at a local dance, I was speaking with a woman when a man asked
>> her
>> to dance. She said, "No, I don't like this song!," and the man slithered
>> off. I said, "You're not going to dance?" She said, "No, I don't like
>> that
>> song!" I said, "Are you going to find him and ask him to dance later?"
>> She
>> said, "No, he'll come and ask me again."
>
> First of all, Larry, I just want to say that it's good to see you out
> again even if you're not dancing yet. :^)))
>
Thank you, Trish! By the way, I've danced one or two each of several nights
since a week ago Saturday; I'm just being selective who I dance with, how
frequently I dance, and to which music. :--)
> Secondly, the paranoid in me has to wonder if you're talking about me
> since we were talking last week at Hacienda, LOL...???
>
Absolutely not!
> Third, I feel this topic has pretty much been exhausted in RAD in the
> past, and yet here it is again... But since you brought it up I thought
> I'd play devil's advocate on the subject.
>
Oh boy, the kid's in for it again! :^)
> An invitation to dance is NOT, IMO, a sacred right or obligation.
>
Of course not!
> I feel I respect and honor invitations to dance whenever and as often
> as possible. If I say no, there is a reason, which I may or may not be
> able to communicate. I try to make it up to the asker...
In my original post--you may recall--the first woman I spoke of had no such
intention.
> ...but if I don't for whatever reason, or if I can't give them the reason
> at the time, I
> expect them to be adults about it and understand. If they can't, well,
> that's too bad and if I'm crossed off of someone's list, that's their
> loss.
>
> But honestly, lately I have been questioning the validity of always
> saying yes.
>
I don't believe someone always should say yes. I do, however, think it's
helpful to be considerate!
> There are a few people out there who, for whatever reasons, I really
> dislike dancing with, I find it distasteful, plain and simple. Either I
> dislike them personally or there is something about them that just
> bothers me. And yet, if they ask me, and they do, I say yes and spend
> the next 3 minutes trying to make the best of it, wondering why the
> he** I said yes and cursing my good nature for accepting. Am I giving
> them the best dance possible? Probably not, but why should I want to do
> anything that might encourage them to ask me again? Besides, for
> whatever reason, their dancing doesn't inspire partnership, creativity,
> give and take, musicality, or anything of the kind. Or worse, there is
> something about THEM, an indefinable yuck factor, that comes into play.
> IOW, I don't enjoy myself at all and I can't possibly think that they
> enjoy the dance, either. And yet they still ask. And according to you,
> Ike and others, I'm supposed to dance with them every time they ask.
> Really??? Why???
>
Oh, but I hardly believe that someone should always accept a dance
invitation. In the cases you mentioned, for example, why isn't it
appropriate to say, "No thank you!"? In contrast, I mentioned that a
visitor, who happened to be well groomed, polite, and an excellent dancer,
was turned down by three different women in a short time period at the
beginning of a dance, which is a quite different circumstance. I believed
they were rude because they likely had no basis for judging him as you had
judged the men you had previous experience with, and they gave no indication
as to why they turned him down or that they would look for him later.
> Remember, devil's advocate - that' means going to the extreme, keep
> that in mind when you respond. Besides, the above is JMO as of today.
> Tomorrow may be different.
>
Yes, tomorrow is always marvelous!
Larry Gantman
Larry Gantman
"Bob Wheatley" <xmaster...@directway.com> wrote in message
news:12jq8c8...@corp.supernews.com...>>
>
>
> I don't think there is any validity to "always" having to say yes.
> One persons misery ought not be anothers joy.
> There are many reasons why it may be okay to say no to an invitation to
> dance. I do think we owe what we do (partner dancing) a good dose of
> deference to others and good manners and "no" should be in an extreme
> minority, but that doesn't mean that there aren't reasonable and
> legitimate situations for denying said invitations.
>
Thanks for stating this so well!
Larry Gantman
Ron N.
Why waste even 3 minutes? Unless one has either volunteered,
or is employed as a dance host/hostess at the local dance, there
is little reason to dance any dance unless one wants to dance.
This "dictum" actually drives some dancers away from attending
dances, or to leave early, because they feel obligated if they're
present.
There are times when I would rather sit and talk, or watch
the dancing, or rest my knee, or enjoy my drink, or wait for
decent music or the floor to be less crowded, or only dance
with a few people to whom I owe some dances, etc. And there
are nights when I'd prefer to dance every and any dance with
anybody, beginners included. One should not assume the latter
is always the case for everybody present. I don't.
Then there is the definition of "dance" itself. At some
places, it's obvious that over 50% of the people can dance
pretty well, so the odds, given a random request, are good.
In other settings, someone might well have the opinion that,
on average, most of the unknown people can't dance (given some
narrow definition of "dance") so many do not accept a random
requester until after they've seen them prove themselves out
on the dance floor with some other partner. In some Argentine
Tango settings, asking someone to dance before they've seen
you and make willing eye contact is considered an indication
of cluelessness or worse.
IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M
cs_po...@hotmail.com
> What has happened to the dictum, "It's only three minutes, so dance!"?
If you don't want to dance with someone, or to some music, it's much
better to be honest about that than to pretend you are enjoying
yourself. There's quite a fair chance the other person will figure out
that you aren't, and wonder if that is their fault.
Peter D
> There are times when I would rather sit and talk, or watch
> the dancing, or rest my knee, or enjoy my drink, or wait for
> decent music or the floor to be less crowded, or only dance
> with a few people to whom I owe some dances, etc. And there
> are nights when I'd prefer to dance every and any dance with
> anybody, beginners included. One should not assume the latter
> is always the case for everybody present. I don't.
And that reminds me of another habit, more, rule,dictum, whatever. That of
interrupting a conversation -- especially one that is clearly private and
earnest -- to ask one of the people to dance. It usually comes iwth a "I
have a divine right to ask" attitude and sometimes -- I think in
anticipation of the obvious -- "I'ts not rude. We're all here to dance."
Well, you know what, people come to dances for other reasons. Some come to
socialise and spend valuable and needed time with friends, to talk about the
difficulty they are having with chemo, or to catch up on a shared joy. I
think it is totally rude to interrupt all but an obviously casual
conversation by asking someone to dance.
Jacobus Erasmus
The general rule when dancing is if it is a friend that I have danced
with her many times I'll take it as a legitimate excuse and ask her
later again.
If on the other hand I have never asked the lady before and it's the
first time she goes on my permanent no dance list. I mean permanent this
means I will NEVER ask her again. I have talked to other male dancers
about this and they agree.
What surprises me is that on more than one occasion some ladies have
come back to me and asked me why I did not ask them again.
Also to the ladies. I do not choose a lady to dance randomly, if you
refuse to dance with me I will tell my friends (the good dancers at the
social gathering). The chances are that you will not be asked again. I
have seen many ladies not dancing once at a social gathering getting
more upset as the evening goes on simply because their refused the first
man that asks them to dance.
Refusing a man asking you to dance is very delicate matter. It involves
very good social skills. If you refuse for a good reason being not
wanting to dance is fine but then you must act appropriately. If you
refuse to dance with me and say yes to another person a minute later
that is a indication that you do not wish to dance with me and I will
ignore you for the rest of the evening.
Again remember refusing a man that asks you to dance influences your
enjoyment of the evening and have a larger impact as just one dance that
you are sitting out. It influences every single dance that I would have
asked you to dance, I will think twice if I would like you to dance again.
I must be offended if I have asked you the first time and the second
time you say no. This is fine chances are that you did not like dancing
with me and would not like to continue dancing with me all is fair.
But refusing the first time is BAD. BAD manner, BAD form and will kill
your evening.
I have had incident where I have asked a lady to dance and she would not
simply because she was embarrassed and felt she could not keep up. This
is not a legitimate excuse. I can and do dance most social dances
considerably under my best. So I should be able to dance with you.
wcoastsw...@aol.com
> But refusing the first time is BAD. BAD manner, BAD form and will kill
> your evening.
>
I think this is "it" for me relating to this post. I try never to say
no to someone who asks me to dance that I have never seen before or
never danced with before. If I am so tired I cannot dance, I say "not
this one but if you will wait for me to catch my breath (get a drink of
water or whatever I am sitting it out to accomplish), let's do the next
one". I put a definite time for the dance, not trust I can actually
find the person later. I so remember, and still experience, going to
new places and not so new places and not dancing very much because
either I am not known at the place I have gone to or am not "one of the
sweet young things that might say yes to a date later".
That said, for everyone else, I see no reason to say yes if I mean no.
For whatever reason. There are a few guys I refuse to dance with as
they either have hurt me before with overly rough leads, or engage in
inappropriate holding/groping/whatever you might wish to call it. And
other times when I just wish to sit one out. If I have danced with
someone before in this instance, I figure they will likely ask again
(and I will try to remember not to say no a second time).
I routinely ask guys to dance, and sometimes they say yes and sometimes
no and I just move on to the next person. If someone does refuse me
more than once though, I probably won't ask them again. I don't worry
too much about it. There are usually plenty of others to ask.
Everyone has the right to say no.
Peg
barry
<pay...@verizon.net> wrote:
IMO the practice of courtesy carries an implication that one desires
to minimize the risk of giving offense. the reality is that nowadays,
some people just don't care if they give offense. one has always been
free to act as courteously or discourteously as they wish. it's
usually been the threat of being penalized in some way that motivates
courteous behavior in certain circumstances.
how this seems to play out is that the consequences of discourteous
behavior are inversely proportional to one's popularity and their
standing in relation in the society involved; in the dance world, the
more sought after one is as a partner (for whatever reason) the
greater the likekihood that boorish behavior on their part will not
affect how they are pursued for dances. and sometimes it's just not
fair.
to those who believe in turning the other cheek, that is, continuing
to act courteously towards the offender,that's fine, but the bible
never says to do it more than once (thank you sir! may i have
another?); i personally wouldn't fault anyone for choosing to protect
themselves from being subjected to offensive behavior or discomfort
on a continual basis. if someone's been rude to you or caused you
discomfort, why go back for more? if they're offended - they'll stop
asking you to dance - which is what you'd prefer anyway.
and there are folks i prefer not to dance with - it sometimes requires
some deft maneuvering to avoid eye contact without appearing to do so
deliberately while frantically trying to locate someone nearby to ask
to dance before they can reach you. and there are some songs i prefer
to sit out - but in those cases i always respond by suggesting
something like "how about the next ______ instead? please come remind
me if i forget."
"i can spell. i just can't type."
Icono Clast
> "Icono Clast" said:
>> When I'm turned down, all I hear is "No!" The words used to say
>> "No!" are irrelevant.
>
> No, they're not. There is an actual difference between "No, I'm
> tired right now. But I'd move to dance with you after I've
> rested." and "No. I don't like you. Get lost!" and "No. I want to
> dance with another perosn , not you." If you don't see the
> difference and you regard all as equal then you don't get it.
Whether "No!" is said as simply as that or elaborately flowery, the
end result is that we don't dance. Of course we might dance later or
at another time. Dif'rent subject.
>> The end result is we don't dance because the asked said "No!" As
>> you suggest, when the refusal is covered by asking me later,
>> all's forgiven and forgotten.
>
> "Forgiven and forgotten"? OMG. Such fragile egos!
Yes. As I previously said, my "don't ask" list is numerically based.
Turn me down as politely as you like. You do it enough consecutive
times without making up for it, I get it.
> Get yourself some thicker skin, Ike!
It's thick enough. I don't throw tantrums or go off to a corner to cry.
>> Do you remember what it's like to be fifteen years old, crossing
>> the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the world upon you, to ask a
>> girl to dance who then, perhaps politely, says "No!" and you
>> crawl back across the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the word upon
>> you, to take a seat? I do. Vividly. I NEVER say "No!"
>
> Well, Ike, I'm not entirely surprised that you don't get what this
> father was helping his daughter learn, that her word and wants was
> as valid as any males, and that just because an adult told her
> there was a 'rule' that required her as a female to accede to the
> wishes of a male regardless of her personal desires, she whould
> (politely) express her own perosnal desires and require others to
> respect them. She wasn't there for the benefit of the young men.
> She was there to dance with whomever she wanted to -- and thus not
> dance with whomever she didn't want to.
I was illustrating the oldest of the several reasons that I never say
"No!" to an invitation to dance. I was not commenting on a particular
parent's advice to an individual child. A local woman who grew up
when racism and anti-Semitism were common and "acceptable", was told
to "look down, not at them; in other words no matter who they are or
what they are, dance with them" meaning "don't say `No!' based on the
person's appearance".
> Now addressing your trauma that you still haven't got over... The
> eyes of the world are not on you. I don't even think you can
> imagine that they are.
Pssst. I was speaking of the self-consciousness of a fifteen year old
boy while engaging in an extremely courageous public act.
trish_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I feel I respect and honor invitations to dance whenever and as
> often as possible. If I say no, there is a reason, which I may or
> may not be able to communicate. I try to make it up to the asker
That's all I ask in lieu of your hand in dance.
> but if I don't for whatever reason, or if I can't give them the
> reason at the time, I expect them to be adults about it and
> understand.
I do the first time and probably forget about it 'til the second time
that I remember 'til the last time I ask.
> But honestly, lately I have been questioning the validity of
> always saying yes.
There are always valid reasons to turn down an individual. I have
them but don't act upon them. Others have them and do act upon them,
as they ought. One in this forum recently said here that she doesn't
want to dance with me yet I cannot remember her having ever refused
my invitation. So I guess she politely concealed that she was merely
tolerating dancing with me. I shall respect her desire as expressed
here. If you want to know how I feel about it, you can send me a mEssage.
> Am I giving [those with whom I'd rather not dance] the best dance
> possible? Probably not, but why should I want to do anything that
> might encourage them to ask me again? Besides, for whatever
> reason, their dancing doesn't inspire partnership, creativity,
> give and take, musicality, or anything of the kind. Or worse,
> there is something about THEM, an indefinable yuck factor, that
> comes into play. IOW, I don't enjoy myself at all and I can't
> possibly think that they enjoy the dance, either. And yet they
> still ask. And . . . I'm supposed to dance with them every time
> they ask. Really??? Why???
>
> Remember, devil's advocate - that' means going to the extreme,
> keep that in mind when you respond. Besides, the above is JMO as
> of today. Tomorrow may be different.
That's your prerogative, Dear.
Bob Whatley said:
> I don't think there is any validity to "always" having to say yes.
> One persons misery ought not be anothers joy. There are many
> reasons why it may be okay to say no to an invitation to dance. I
> do think we owe what we do (partner dancing) a good dose of
> deference to others and good manners and "no" should be in an
> extreme minority, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
> reasonable and legitimate situations for denying said invitations.
Well said.
Christine Elowitt said:
> Personally, I rarely turn down a dance . . . there is nothing
> wrong with saying, "No thank you." You are not obligated to do
> anything you are uncomfortable with. . . . If the same person
> turns me down more than once and never asks me for a dance, I do
> get the point,
>
> To always assume it is because she is rude, is just...well, rude.
Well said.
Ron N. wrote:
> asking someone to dance before they've seen you
Please see the original "Never say `No!'".
Jacobus Erasmus wrote:
> If on the other hand I have never asked the lady before and it's
> the first time she goes on my permanent no dance list.
Wow! You're tough . . .
> if you refuse to dance with me I will tell my friends
. . . and mean.
> If you refuse to dance with me and say yes to another person a
> minute later that is a indication that you do not wish to dance
> with me and I will ignore you for the rest of the evening.
To dance "a minute later" or to the same number? Big difference. For
me, accepting a dance with another to the same number, that's "don't
ask". A minute later to a different number? I probably don't notice.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
Peter D
> If on the other hand I have never asked the lady before and it's the
> first time she goes on my permanent no dance list. I mean permanent this
> means I will NEVER ask her again. I have talked to other male dancers
> about this and they agree.
This is ridiculous! If you issue a permant, lifetime, "ban" on being asked
because of a a "no, thank you" where there is no rudeness -- well, except
for the "any no is a rude one" of the terminally fragile ego -- you are
being a Prima Donna, a spoiled brat, a jerk, and demonstrating _your_
rudness. I find it hard to believe that you're an adult.
I can only presume that you think yourself a good dancer. But being a dancer
is much more htan steps and patterns. It's also social skills and grace. And
a touch of nobility and honour wouldn't hurt you either!
>But refusing the first time is BAD. BAD manner, BAD form and will kill your
>evening.
OMG! You must be obeyed, O Great One!
Too funny!
Note to any women reading his advice. Tell him to put it where the sun don't
shine. And I don't mean London, England.
ROTFLMOA!!!!!!!!!!!
Peter D
> IMO the practice of courtesy carries an implication that one desires
> to minimize the risk of giving offense. the reality is that nowadays,
> some people just don't care if they give offense.
To be fair, there are some -- and there are some in this thread -- who just
don't care if they take offence. In fact, they seem to seek out
offences.IMHO it's often about power and control. The offence-taker (where
none is actually given) seeks victimhood and control. I think this "she
cannot say 'no' to me without social censure" is about control and
conformity. Think about it. In what other world is there a "rule" that
requires a woman to not say "no" to a man or suffer negative consequences?
Isn't it better to have a "rule" that says, "You're an adult. Please
honestly and politely express your own wishes." and "We encourage all to
respect the wishes of their fellow dancers."?
Peter D
> Peter D wrote:
>> "Icono Clast" said:
>>> When I'm turned down, all I hear is "No!" The words used to say
>>> "No!" are irrelevant.
>>
>> No, they're not. There is an actual difference between "No, I'm
>> tired right now. But I'd move to dance with you after I've
>> rested." and "No. I don't like you. Get lost!" and "No. I want to
>> dance with another perosn , not you." If you don't see the
>> difference and you regard all as equal then you don't get it.
>
> Whether "No!" is said as simply as that or elaborately flowery, the
> end result is that we don't dance.
True. But here's a clue, Ike. It's not only about YOU. Yup, it's not about
what YOU want. There's another person. I know you'll find it a hard concept
to grasp, but that other human being has a right not to dance with you. Deal
with it.
>>> The end result is we don't dance because the asked said "No!" As
>>> you suggest, when the refusal is covered by asking me later,
>>> all's forgiven and forgotten.
>> "Forgiven and forgotten"? OMG. Such fragile egos!
I missed the "covered" first time around. You write as if someone has to
"cover" (excuse, explain, deceive) their "no, thank you". She's a person.
Show some repsect. Think for a moment aobut someone other than YOU.
> Yes. As I previously said, my "don't ask" list is numerically based.
> Turn me down as politely as you like. You do it enough consecutive
> times without making up for it, I get it.
>
>> Get yourself some thicker skin, Ike!
>
> It's thick enough. I don't throw tantrums or go off to a corner to cry.
No, you keep a "numerical based list" -- in your head? This really is so
pathetic, Ike. You keep a mental list and award points based on imaginary
received insults to your ego? Too funny!
>>> Do you remember what it's like to be fifteen years old, crossing
>>> the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the world upon you, to ask a
>>> girl to dance who then, perhaps politely, says "No!" and you
>>> crawl back across the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the word upon
>>> you, to take a seat? I do. Vividly. I NEVER say "No!"
>> Now addressing your trauma that you still haven't got over... The
>> eyes of the world are not on you. I don't even think you can
>> imagine that they are.
>
> Pssst. I was speaking of the self-consciousness of a fifteen year old
> boy while engaging in an extremely courageous public act.
If you mean you were illustrating as an example, not speaking from personal
experience, you should re-read your words. I just did. They're written as if
you were recounting an actual event.
Ed Jay
It also has a lot to do with the recent bs that "political correctness" is
old hat that we should now ignore. Out the window with the Golden Rule, only
the wussy Liberals think PC is important. Thank the far-right talking heads
and their ilk for that crap.
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
barry
>"barry" <toisa...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote
>> IMO the practice of courtesy carries an implication that one desires
>> to minimize the risk of giving offense. the reality is that nowadays,
>> some people just don't care if they give offense.
>
>To be fair, there are some -- and there are some in this thread -- who just
>don't care if they take offence. In fact, they seem to seek out
>offences.IMHO it's often about power and control. The offence-taker (where
>none is actually given) seeks victimhood and control. I think this "she
>cannot say 'no' to me without social censure" is about control and
>conformity. Think about it. In what other world is there a "rule" that
>requires a woman to not say "no" to a man or suffer negative consequences?
i agree that no one should feel obiligated to submit to a situation
that causes discomfort - but where does one draw the line that defines
discomfort? actual pain? potential humiliation for being seen with
someone socially undesirable? B.O.? the fact that the other person
can't keep a steady beat to save their lives?
in my perspective, an invitation and acceptance to dance has always
carried an implicit agreement that each person will be the best
partner possible for the other.* if* each person has that mindset,
then they shouldn't be offended should the other person offer
feedback, before, during or after the dance such as
- btw, i have a sore _______, i'd prefer to avoid ________ ;
- you know, it feels uncomfortable for me when you _____________;
if they heed your input, fine - if anything, they're probably grateful
to you for being willing to point that out. if they choose to be
offended, that implies to me that their concern for my welfare is
sufficiently low that i would free to refuse subsequent overtures
until that person demonstrated some sort of change of heart.
>Isn't it better to have a "rule" that says, "You're an adult. Please
>honestly and politely express your own wishes." and "We encourage all to
>respect the wishes of their fellow dancers."?
i see no conflict - as long as both people are trying to be good
partners & trying to avoid giving offense (which IMO includes
discomort while dancing), the "traditional" rules of etiquette apply.
when one person demonstrates a different perspective, then a
different set of rules apply which can (and probably should) include a
formal statement of:
"you know, not only is it not fun to dance (or whatever) with you, i
actually have found it to be unpleasant. as long as you continue to
_____________(and you probably need to be specific and explicit as to
what actually causes the discomfort), i prefer not to dance with you."
if that offends them - what have you lost? someone you'd prefer not to
dance with now longer dances with you. and if enough people were that
direct, they would *hopefully* be motivated to change.
but i do acknowledge that factors off the floor can influence the
choices one has on the floor. as i said before, sometimes, it's just
not fair.
"i can spell. i just can't type."
John Wheaton
"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:10hsj2174t68h1pfb...@4ax.com...
> >>
> It also has a lot to do with the recent bs that "political correctness" is
> old hat that we should now ignore. Out the window with the Golden Rule,
> only
> the wussy Liberals think PC is important. Thank the far-right talking
> heads
> and their ilk for that crap.
>
I have not seen what you describe here, especially in the Dance World.
Ed Jay
Yes, we already know that you're blind to the sins of the right. :-)
Ron N.
> It also has a lot to do with the recent bs that "political correctness" is
> old hat that we should now ignore. Out the window with the Golden Rule,
> only the wussy Liberals think PC is important.
"political correctness" and the Golden Rule are pretty
much orthogonal. U.S. States which are regarded as less
"politically correct" sometimes rank higher in charitable giving
statistics. And, though correlation is not causation, it does
seem as if general interest in partner dancing is somewhat
inversely related to societies "PC" index over the past half
century or so. If anything, the social dance population is
more diverse, so any expected social obligations to dance
are unlikely to be uniform behaviors. Deal with it.
John Wheaton
Ah, ducking the issue with a smiley.
Ed Jay
>
>"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:pnosj2537gvd2bcpj...@4ax.com...
>> John Wheaton scribed:
>>
>>>
>>>"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>>>news:10hsj2174t68h1pfb...@4ax.com...
>>>> >>
>>>> It also has a lot to do with the recent bs that "political correctness"
>>>> is
>>>> old hat that we should now ignore. Out the window with the Golden Rule,
>>>> only the wussy Liberals think PC is important. Thank the far-right
>>>> talking
>>>> heads and their ilk for that crap.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I have not seen what you describe here, especially in the Dance World.
>>>
>> Yes, we already know that you're blind to the sins of the right. :-)
>>
>
>Ah, ducking the issue with a smiley.
>
Where's your winkie? :-)
I wasn't ducking the issue. I presumed that you had read the thread and
would immediately recognize how the 'me' attitude has pervaded our dance
world.
memiki
the Club is family, I try never to refuse a WCS dance when asked by
anyone, be they newbie to the dance or first-time at the
Club.......except there is one leader I try to physically avoid so that
I won't have to dance with him.
At an event, it can be different.........at a recent out-of-town event,
for my own safety and well-being and after a few dangerous dances, I
made a decision not to accept invitations from leaders I did not know
or had never seen before until I had a chance to watch them on the
floor.....sometimes I said "No, thank you, I am resting" and if he
seemed particularly shy, courteous, or vulnerable, I would add, "but
please ask me again."
Having said that, three leaders over the long weekend refused when I
asked them to dance:
First: Dancer was a local from my Club.......he was sitting behind me
munching a cookie/snack when I asked him. We have always had nice
dances together. He indicated he wanted to finish his
cookie/snack.......next song he was out on the floor dancing, but not
with me. He does this often, and I only ask him latenight when there
are too few good leaders out there.
Second: Dancer was from another country with whom I have had several
pleasant dances over the years -- he was sitting behind me resting his
leg on a chair. It was latenight, and I asked him to dance........ he
was worried about his knee because it was in a brace and bothering
him..........next song he was on the floor dancing with a young lady
from his own country. I thought his refusal could have been because he
was not comfortable dancing with me when he could not do his best, but
when dancing with a friend from his home city, he did not have to be
concerned. However, for a while I will be reluctant to ask him to
dance.
Third: Dancer was from another country further away........he was part
of a delightful group sitting near me, and most of them had already
asked me to dance. Wishing not to exclude him and to be hospitable, I
asked him to dance......he said he needed a "toilet break" and would be
right back to have the dance. He returned quickly to dance to the next
song, but not with me. When he showed up at our Club following weekend,
the heck with hospitality.....I did not bother with him.
All three men returned to the floor, right in front of where I was
sitting, to dance with followers who just happned to be young, pretty
AND good dancers.......and that's the way it is sometimes. Who can
blame them.........my leaders are all men who are younger :),
attractive AND good dancers, too :). I don't feel the refusals were
because I am not a good dancer or that they don't like me.........it's
just all part of life.
The men did not come back to me to reclaim the dance.......I don't do
that often either when I refuse.
My hurt feelings from refusals are my problem to deal with; and if I so
desire, I have the power to control the situation by asking or not
asking again, whatever works.
That said, the "No's" are not easy to give or to receive.......but they
can contribute to one's growth..........particularly if that "one" is
not used to being refused anything :)
Miki
John Wheaton
>>>>> >>
>>>>> It also has a lot to do with the recent bs that "political
>>>>> correctness"
>>>>> is
>>>>> old hat that we should now ignore. Out the window with the Golden
>>>>> Rule,
>>>>> only the wussy Liberals think PC is important. Thank the far-right
>>>>> talking
>>>>> heads and their ilk for that crap.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I have not seen what you describe here, especially in the Dance World.
>>>>
>>> Yes, we already know that you're blind to the sins of the right. :-)
>>>
>>
>>Ah, ducking the issue with a smiley.
>>
> Where's your winkie? :-)
>
> I wasn't ducking the issue. I presumed that you had read the thread and
> would immediately recognize how the 'me' attitude has pervaded our dance
> world.
While there is much more of the "me" thing going on, I don't see how the
Right has anything to do with it. Further, I think that is any side has
added to the "me" thing, it would be the anything that you want to do is Ok
as long as you are happy since it is all about you Lefties.
See ya soon at the Halloween Swingthing!
Ed Jay
>
>"Ed Jay" <ed...@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:ep0tj2pf7lrna9oce...@4ax.com...
>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> It also has a lot to do with the recent bs that "political
>>>>>> correctness"
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> old hat that we should now ignore. Out the window with the Golden
>>>>>> Rule,
>>>>>> only the wussy Liberals think PC is important. Thank the far-right
>>>>>> talking
>>>>>> heads and their ilk for that crap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I have not seen what you describe here, especially in the Dance World.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, we already know that you're blind to the sins of the right. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ah, ducking the issue with a smiley.
>>>
>> Where's your winkie? :-)
>>
>> I wasn't ducking the issue. I presumed that you had read the thread and
>> would immediately recognize how the 'me' attitude has pervaded our dance
>> world.
>
>While there is much more of the "me" thing going on, I don't see how the
>Right has anything to do with it.
I already wrote that it's the right-wingnut talking heads that promulgated
the philosophy that political correctness should be considered a thing of
the past, because "it's a Liberal thing."
>Further, I think that is any side has
>added to the "me" thing, it would be the anything that you want to do is Ok
>as long as you are happy since it is all about you Lefties.
>
That's exactly the kind of crap the wingnuts scream at their audiences, but
you're correct, John, all the problems are the fault of the terrible Left.
LMAO!
Peter D
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:10:48 -0500, "Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote:
>>"barry" <toisa...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote
>>> IMO the practice of courtesy carries an implication that one desires
>>> to minimize the risk of giving offense. the reality is that nowadays,
>>> some people just don't care if they give offense.
>>
>>To be fair, there are some -- and there are some in this thread -- who
>>just
>>don't care if they take offence. In fact, they seem to seek out
>>offences.IMHO it's often about power and control. The offence-taker (where
>>none is actually given) seeks victimhood and control. I think this "she
>>cannot say 'no' to me without social censure" is about control and
>>conformity. Think about it. In what other world is there a "rule" that
>>requires a woman to not say "no" to a man or suffer negative consequences?
>
> i agree that no one should feel obiligated to submit to a situation
> that causes discomfort - but where does one draw the line that defines
> discomfort?
The recipient of the potential discomfort can draw the line. Who else is in
a position to know?
> actual pain? potential humiliation for being seen with
> someone socially undesirable? B.O.? the fact that the other person
> can't keep a steady beat to save their lives?
All of the above and "I don't want to dance right now".
>>Isn't it better to have a "rule" that says, "You're an adult. Please
>>honestly and politely express your own wishes." and "We encourage all to
>>respect the wishes of their fellow dancers."?
>
> i see no conflict - as long as both people are trying to be good
> partners & trying to avoid giving offense (which IMO includes
> discomort while dancing), the "traditional" rules of etiquette apply.
But the problem is that some insist that those "traditional rules of
etiquette" require a woman to assent to a man's request for a dance. If she
fails to do so -- and without hesitation for some -- she is the one being
"rude". that's nonsense and sexist.
Here's a close as possible a conversation:
"Hi. Would you like to dance?"
"No, Not right now."
"Do you mind if I asked you later?"
"No. that'd be fine. Thank you."
)The lady was flustered (I hadn't noticed) and felt a bit embarrassed
because she had broken something or torn something or done something to some
item of her clothing. Once she solved the problem, she was fine and happy to
dance.)
Some have clearly stated that the second response is unnecessary. Her
initial response brands the woman as "rude" and deserving only their
contempt and scorn. Well, in my "rule book" they are "rude".
Bob Wheatley
>> i see no conflict - as long as both people are trying to be good
>> partners & trying to avoid giving offense (which IMO includes
>> discomort while dancing), the "traditional" rules of etiquette apply.
>
"Peter D" <please@.sk> replies:
> But the problem is that some insist that those "traditional rules of
> etiquette" require a woman to assent to a man's request for a dance. If
> she fails to do so -- and without hesitation for some -- she is the one
> being "rude". that's nonsense and sexist.
>
Jus' keepin' it real here Peter.
Barry didn't turn this into a sexist issue. You did.
He wrote about "people" and you somehow convoluted his context into "women"
in your reply.
Bob Wheatley
Peter D
My reply wasn't to Barry as such. More of a conversation. And it is a sexist
issue because the vast majority of times this issue is discussed it's about
a "rule" that requires women to say "yes" to a man and not vice versa. So
far the issue has been about "women who say "no" and are considered rude for
doing so" so I see no reason to not just say "women" and be done with it.
Unless any women want to complain about men who say "no" and are thus
considered rude. Anyone?
Icono Clast
> "Icono Clast" wrote
>> Peter D wrote:
>>> "Icono Clast" said:
>>>> When I'm turned down, all I hear is "No!" The words used to
>>>> say "No!" are irrelevant.
>> Whether "No!" is said as simply as that or elaborately flowery,
>> the end result is that we don't dance.
>
> True. But here's a clue, Ike. It's not only about YOU. Yup, it's
> not about what YOU want.
Yes, it's true. I'm so self-centered, introverted, inflated with a
sense of superiority and conceited that I cannot grasp that an "other
human being has a right not to dance with" me.
> I missed the "covered" first time around. You write as if someone
> has to "cover" (excuse, explain, deceive) their "no, thank you".
> She's a person. Show some repsect.
"Has to"? No. Slights, perceived or intended, can be repaired and
forgiven 'though perhaps not forgotten. I'm so insensitive to the
feelings and desires of others that I never say "No!" to an
invitation to dance.
> Think for a moment aobut someone other than YOU.
Yes, I'm so selfish that I do not have a "don't dance" list because
I'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me.
>> Yes. As I previously said, my "don't ask" list is numerically
>> based. Turn me down as politely as you like. You do it enough
>> consecutive times without making up for it, I get it.
>>
>>> Get yourself some thicker skin, Ike!
>> It's thick enough. I don't throw tantrums or go off to a corner
>> to cry.
>
> No, you keep a "numerical based list" -- in your head? This really
> is so pathetic, Ike. You keep a mental list and award points based
> on imaginary received insults to your ego? Too funny!
I find it's easier than carrying a notebook. Perhaps you've noticed
that others in this thread are even more restrictive than I.
>>>> Do you remember what it's like to be fifteen years old,
>>>> crossing the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the world upon you,
>>>> to ask a girl to dance who then, perhaps politely, says
>>>> "No!" and you crawl back across the gymnasium floor, the
>>>> eyes o'the [typo correct] world upon you, to take a seat? I
>>>> do. Vividly. I NEVER say "No!"
>
>>> Now addressing your trauma that you still haven't got over...
>>> The eyes of the world are not on you. I don't even think you
>>> can imagine that they are.
>> Pssst. I was speaking of the self-consciousness of a fifteen
>> year old boy while engaging in an extremely courageous public
>> act.
>
> If you mean you were illustrating as an example, not speaking from
> personal experience, you should re-read your words. I just did.
> They're written as if you were recounting an actual event.
I recounted an actual event that's probably happened zillions of
times. Perhaps you're the physical ideal for fifteen year old girls
who would be thrilled were you to ask them to dance. Such people have
perhaps not had the experience related. Not everyone fits that
description, though, and have had that experience; you know, the guy
with big ears or nose; the one who's too short or too fat; the one
whose clothes don't quite fit; the one who fifteen year old girls
reject for countless reasons fifteen year old boys cannot fathom.
Those beautiful boys in the eyes of those young girls, had they a bit
of empathy, might understand that not everyone is regarded with the
same favor as they. They, too, might not ever say "No!" to an
invitation to dance.
-- ________________________________________________________________
Icono Clast
> Larry Gantman wrote:
>> What has happened to the dictum, "It's only three minutes, so
>> dance!"?
>
> Why waste even 3 minutes? Unless one has either volunteered, or
> is employed as a dance host/hostess at the local dance, there is
> little reason to dance any dance unless one wants to dance.
That's quite true, Ron, but unacceptable to me. Maybe I should say
"for" me.
> This "dictum" actually drives some dancers away from attending
> dances, or to leave early, because they feel obligated if they're
> present.
I believe each of us is. I believe that we have a duty, for lack of a
better word, to ensure that everyone who goes to a dance to dance
gets to dance at the dance they've gone to to dance. That means
noticing if some people are sitting too (however you might interpret
that) long and asking those people to dance.
No, I don't think you should ask all of them on one evening nor do I
think you should ask only them on any evening. I've always made it a
point to ask the obviously venue-minorities, i.e., exceptional
persons such as the very tall/short/fat/thin/old/young/beautiful/ugly
or people apparently of races or ancestries uncommon at the venue.
The first time I ever did so was the first time I noticed that
gorgeous girls have the same problem as ugly ones: they don't get
asked to dance (well, not when they're fifteen). I remember well
crossing the gymnasium floor to ask a very pretty girl who hadn't
danced for quite a while. She turned me down in an unnecessarily
cruel way that aroused pity in me. It's always been my hope that she
immediately realized how hurtful her words could have been and never
repeated the act that, fortunately for me, only shocked but did not hurt.
> There are times when I would rather sit and talk, or watch the
> dancing, or rest my knee, or enjoy my drink, or wait for decent
> music or the floor to be less crowded, or only dance with a few
> people to whom I owe some dances, etc.
Is that not true of all of us?
> And there are nights when I'd prefer to dance every and any dance
> with anybody, beginners included. One should not assume the latter
> is always the case for everybody present. I don't.
Of course. My comments here are about dances as we dancers define
them, not what others call "dances".
> many do not accept a random requester until after they've seen
> them prove themselves out on the dance floor with some other
> partner.
Please see the 'Vegas story. It follows the sig
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
NO “NO!”
Or: Never Say “No!” a.k.a. The 'Vegas Story
Lightly edited from the November 22, 1994 original
Crossing Boulder Dam, recorded Big Band music was on the radio. The
announcer claimed that people were dancing at the Las Vegas
restaurant from which the broadcast emanated. When he gave the
address (Hey! I know where that is!) and announced the cheap dinner
special, there we went!
I had correctly speculated that the allegation of dancing was a
lie because the music wasn't suitable. Too bad because the floor was
large and looked very good.
After ordering, I asked the waiter “Who's the best dancer here?”
He pointed to a li'l ol' lady who turned me down.
After a while, a gorgeous woman came in. ‘AhHa!’, said I to me,
‘there's a dancer!’ I went to her escort to ask his permission to ask
her to dance. In my peripheral vision, I could see her vigorously
shaking her head and mouthing “No!” so he abided by her wish. Didn't
dance on that floor at all although I later heard that it's excellent.
Cuppla hours later, walked into a bar to ask the bouncer “Is this the
place?” He assured me it was. “Well,” said I, “do you mind if I
confirm that before paying the cover?” “Not at all.”
The downbeat was at Nine sharp. Indeed, it was the place! The
music and dancing were terrific!
After a bit of listening and watching, I sought a partner. I can't
tell you how many turned me down but almost enough to discourage me
into considering leaving in tears of anger and frustration before a
lovely, kind, pity-taking woman accepted my proffer'd hand. Many
curious eyes followed us to the floor with an absent-minded
“WhoHe/WhatDo?” glaze. When they saw . . . well, I wasn't turned down
again.
From that bar, we went as a group to another where 'Vegas-favorite
Jay Orlando was playing. Around one o'clock, the head-shaking woman
from the restaurant appeared. I caught the initial shock and surprise
on her face when she saw me. She watched me intently giving the
distinct impression that she wanted to dance with me. But I gave her
a look that, I hope, said, “[Go copulate with yourself, Female Dawg!]
Y'wanna dance with me you can crawl across the floor t'beg!” She
didn't. We didn't. A mutual loss.
Bob Wheatley
news:12ju7pm...@corp.supernews.com...
I thought this thread was actually about the "never say no" dictum that
applies to both women and men. The posters here are mostly men so it may
appear sexist to you, but that old dictum applies to everyone.
I'm not saying I completely agree with it but it's been around since I
started dancing.
Bob Wheatley
Peter D
> Peter D wrote:
>> "Icono Clast" wrote
>>> Peter D wrote:
>>>> "Icono Clast" said:
>>>>> When I'm turned down, all I hear is "No!" The words used to
>>>>> say "No!" are irrelevant.
>>>> No, they're not . . .
>>> Whether "No!" is said as simply as that or elaborately flowery,
>>> the end result is that we don't dance.
>>
>> True. But here's a clue, Ike. It's not only about YOU. Yup, it's
>> not about what YOU want.
>
> Yes, it's true. I'm so self-centered, introverted, inflated with a
> sense of superiority and conceited that I cannot grasp that an "other
> human being has a right not to dance with" me.
Well done, Ike. Bravo! The beginning of getting over boorishness and
becoming a new perosn is admitting you have a problem. the next -- and this
is the tough one for you -- is to apologise to all those you've harmed.
That's a whole lot of crow to swallow, but take small bites. You can do it.
>> I missed the "covered" first time around. You write as if someone
>> has to "cover" (excuse, explain, deceive) their "no, thank you".
>> She's a person. Show some repsect.
>
> "Has to"? No. Slights, perceived or intended, can be repaired and
> forgiven 'though perhaps not forgotten. I'm so insensitive to the
> feelings and desires of others that I never say "No!" to an
> invitation to dance.
Maybe that's because you have a rep for taking it as an "invitation to
grope". I dunno.
>> Think for a moment aobut someone other than YOU.
>
> Yes, I'm so selfish that I do not have a "don't dance" list because
> I'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me.
>
>>> Yes. As I previously said, my "don't ask" list is numerically
>>> based. Turn me down as politely as you like. You do it enough
>>> consecutive times without making up for it, I get it.
>>>
>>>> Get yourself some thicker skin, Ike!
>>> It's thick enough. I don't throw tantrums or go off to a corner
>>> to cry.
>>
>> No, you keep a "numerical based list" -- in your head? This really
>> is so pathetic, Ike. You keep a mental list and award points based
>> on imaginary received insults to your ego? Too funny!
>
> I find it's easier than carrying a notebook. Perhaps you've noticed that
> others in this thread are even more restrictive than I.
So? You might as well claim that your groping of women that was discussed
last month is OK because there are men who rape them. Who cares? It's your
behaviour I'm challenging, Ike, not theirs.
>>>>> Do you remember what it's like to be fifteen years old,
>>>>> crossing the gymnasium floor, the eyes o'the world upon you,
>>>>> to ask a girl to dance who then, perhaps politely, says
>>>>> "No!" and you crawl back across the gymnasium floor, the
>>>>> eyes o'the [typo correct] world upon you, to take a seat? I
>>>>> do. Vividly. I NEVER say "No!"
>>
>>>> Now addressing your trauma that you still haven't got over...
>>>> The eyes of the world are not on you. I don't even think you
>>>> can imagine that they are.
>>> Pssst. I was speaking of the self-consciousness of a fifteen
>>> year old boy while engaging in an extremely courageous public
>>> act.
>>
>> If you mean you were illustrating as an example, not speaking from
>> personal experience, you should re-read your words. I just did.
>> They're written as if you were recounting an actual event.
>
> I recounted an actual event that's probably happened zillions of
> times.
Were you talking aobut an actual event that happened to you and explaining
your feelings, or not? If you were, check your English. If you werent't,
stop talking as if you were. Easy. Uncomplicated. Not tha tit really
matters. If you haven't got over it yet, seek professional help. It's long
overdue.
Peter D
Ron N. wrote:
> Larry Gantman wrote:
>> What has happened to the dictum, "It's only three minutes, so
>> dance!"?
>
> Why waste even 3 minutes? Unless one has either volunteered, or
> is employed as a dance host/hostess at the local dance, there is
> little reason to dance any dance unless one wants to dance.
That's quite true, Ron, but unacceptable to me. Maybe I should say
"for" me.
> This "dictum" actually drives some dancers away from attending dances, or
> to leave early, because they feel obligated if they're present.
I believe each of us is. I believe that we have a duty, for lack of a
better word, to ensure that everyone who goes to a dance to dance
gets to dance at the dance they've gone to to dance. That means
noticing if some people are sitting too (however you might interpret
that) long and asking those people to dance.
I always try to make sure I ask new ladies to dance and take the opportunity
to introduce myself and tell them about the dance opportunities in the area.
After the dance I introduce them to friends inthe hope that they'll form new
friendships and find themselves more comfortable the next time they return.
I also mentally note the locaitonof those ladies who rarely or never get a
dance and ask them at some point in the evening. I think it's polite and
'right' to do so. But that's a separate issue from regarding women who say
"no" as rude.
Peter D
Well, I suppose it's considered a "gender-neutral" rule, but whenever I hear
it discussed it's always in the context of men complaining that women don't
say "yes" whenever they ask. So it seems to me that the actual experience is
not gender-neutral. I would like to hear any women who can offer their
perspective and experiences on men who say "no". Do you consider them rude
automatically? To you keep a mental numerical list of their infractions? Do
you get all wounded and huffy regardless of why they said "no"? Please, do
tell.
Mike Corbett
There's an old thread here where a woman I turned down, posted a
question to RAD to see what people thought of my reason.
For the record, she came to me at a crowded convention well into a
song, just a few minutes before a major Jack and Jill final in which I
was not competing. Because of the circumstances, I indicated I would
rather not take up space on such a crowded floor, when my friends were
trying to find room to warm up for a competition. I don't expect but
really appreciate such consideration. I compete better when I've had
time to prepare my mind AND body.
Actually, I really dislike being asked to dance in the middle of a
song, at such a convention, when I'm likely to have to run a gauntlet
of many other couples in order to find a space to squeeze in. Often
I'll suggest we dance the next one instead but this was a specific
circumstance.
The point is that it's been discussed before. You're probably seeing
it as a male problem because regardless of what is "fine" men still do
most of the asking, so statistically it would be men who are
experiencing most of the turn downs.
Mike Corbett
avid_...@uymail.com
> But honestly, lately I have been questioning the validity of always
> saying yes.
>
> There are a few people out there who, for whatever reasons, I really
> dislike dancing with, I find it distasteful, plain and simple. Either I
> dislike them personally or there is something about them that just
> bothers me. And yet, if they ask me, and they do, I say yes and spend
> the next 3 minutes trying to make the best of it, wondering why the
> he** I said yes and cursing my good nature for accepting. Am I giving
> them the best dance possible? Probably not, but why should I want to do
> anything that might encourage them to ask me again? Besides, for
> whatever reason, their dancing doesn't inspire partnership, creativity,
> give and take, musicality, or anything of the kind. Or worse, there is
> something about THEM, an indefinable yuck factor, that comes into play.
> IOW, I don't enjoy myself at all and I can't possibly think that they
> enjoy the dance, either. And yet they still ask. And according to you,
> Ike and others, I'm supposed to dance with them every time they ask.
> Really??? Why???
>
> Remember, devil's advocate - that' means going to the extreme, keep
> that in mind when you respond. Besides, the above is JMO as of today.
> Tomorrow may be different.
Perhaps they should run some dances, or have some dance system,
that offers dancers feedback. Like the "How am I Driving" 800 numbers
one can use to leave (anonymous) evaluations of truck or other
professional drivers. Each dancer is given and wears an ID number as
in a comp and anybody is allowed to fill out a (anonymous) feedback
form for that dancer. The form might have check-off ratings for
technique, spontaneity, timing, gentleness of connection, sociability,
pleasantness, BO, yuck factor, pervert factor, etc., to clue dancers in
on what they can work on. Or it may even say "you're hot and I'd like
to go out with you."
Social decorum makes it easy to compliment but a sin to critique,
so some other channel of commenting (other than instructors making
general comments in classes) may be ultimately beneficial for all.
Of course, this doesn't overcome that indescribable yuck factor.
And the organizer must be diligent in getting the suggestion forms
to the associated dancer (presumably without peeking).
John Wheaton
> >>
>>While there is much more of the "me" thing going on, I don't see how the
>>Right has anything to do with it.
>
> I already wrote that it's the right-wingnut talking heads that promulgated
> the philosophy that political correctness should be considered a thing of
> the past, because "it's a Liberal thing."
Please note when anyone on the Right stated that good manners are to thrown
out.
>>Further, I think that is any side has
>>added to the "me" thing, it would be the anything that you want to do is
>>Ok
>>as long as you are happy since it is all about you Lefties.
>>
> That's exactly the kind of crap the wingnuts scream at their audiences,
> but
> you're correct, John, all the problems are the fault of the terrible Left.
> LMAO!
That attempt at marginalizing won't hold water. We were talking about a
single specific issue, and you were called on it, and after having no
specific answer, you then generalize, and attempt to marginalize.
It has not been Conservatives that have stated that "me" takes preference
over anyone else, and what ever you want to do as long as it feels good is
Ok. That has been those on the Liberal end of things.
On to something else, that book "The Company" that I was reading when we
last were together was a great read. I'll bring it along this weekend if you
would like to check it out.
christin...@hotmail.com
>I would like to hear any women who can offer their
> perspective and experiences on men who say "no". Do you consider them rude
> automatically? To you keep a mental numerical list of their infractions? Do
> you get all wounded and huffy regardless of why they said "no"? Please, do
> tell.
Hi Peter,
Miki and I (both women) have already shared some of our experiences in
this thread. But since you missed those, here is my perspective.
I don't think it is really any different for women than for men. We
ask people to dance. Some of them say yes. A few say no. Sometimes
it is for a good reason (tired, injured, tempo too fast, etc.)
Sometimes it is not for such a good reason, but these reasons are never
stated out loud (I think I am a better dancer than you, that other
woman has larger breasts, you are not in the in-crowd around here).
Sometimes a good reason is given but it is a lie (I'd rather they be
honest, especially when they promise the next dance without intending
to dance it with me, usually causing me to miss out on the opportunity
to dance with someone else).
Sometimes it sucks to be turned down, especially if it happens several
times in the same evening. I always evaluate myself to see if there
are things I can do to have a better acceptance rate. But ultimately,
life is messy. I am not willing to do some of the things that could put
me into the "in-crowd" in some dance scenes, so I accept the
consequences,or choose which dances I go to more carefully.
I can't make others behave how I would like them to. All I can control
is my own attitude. I feel good about myself as long as I live up to my
own standards. That includes trying my best during every dance,
smiling and thanking my partners, being kind to those who are kind to
me and being polite to those who are not nice to me, showering and
brushing my teeth before going out, etc. That also includes
appreciating nearly every partner for something, whether it be his
dancing, his looks, his jokes, his conversational skills, his manners,
or just the fact that he wants to dance with me.
Dancing is just like everything else in life. Sometimes things go my
way, sometimes they don't. People create cliques and societal rules.
I like some people. I don't like others. Some like me, some don't.
There are some that I like, but don't agree with. (Wouldn't life be
boring if we all agreed all the time?)
We love dancing, so it is worth doing even if it is hard to have a
thick skin on some nights. Because the next night might be magical and
inspiring.
Christine Elowitt
P.S. Yes, Peter, sometimes I do keep a mental list of infractions. I
was blessed (as well as cursed) with an excellent memory and a keen eye
for detail. It is almost impossible for me not to remember who I
danced with and who turned me down how many times, and who they danced
with immediately afterward, as well as who sees me frequently but never
asks me to dance. I also remember lots of other things that most people
don't, like a playground I went to when I was under two-years-old, my
ex-boyfriend's phone number, how many school buses I passed on the way
to work, etc. And yes, sometimes it hurts my feelings to get turned
down, and I am grateful when someone (like Ike) notices that and asks
me to dance. I am only human, after all!
Ron N.
> I will occasionally turn down dances but when I do so, I give a
> reason and indicate a willingness to dance with the person later.
It's interesting that one is expected to give a reason only
when turning down a dance. Wouldn't it be interesting if
we were expected to give the honest reasons for accepting
an invitation to dance? Here are some potential ones:
- Yes, my dance teacher told me I had to accept.
- Yes, I don't want to look rude to these other potential
dance partners who expect me to meet this obligation.
- Yes, you're less creepy than the person who was chatting
me up, thanks for rescuing me. ***
- Yes, but I'll bite your head off for interrupting me just
as I was about to get somebody's phone number (glare)!
- Yes; with you it might not be dancing, but I need more
exercise.
- Yes (pant, pant...), but why didn't you let me get to the
water fountain where I was obviously heading?
- Yes, I need a dance dummy so that I can practice this new
step pattern, syncopation, arm styling, or whatever on.
- Yes, but I'd rather that that person over there would have
asked instead. Can we dance over there so I'll be seen?
- Yes, I like the song, and you're better than sitting it out.
- Yes, I don't want to dance to this song, but I owe you
one and this may be our only chance. ***
- Yes, we haven't danced yet and I like to dance with a
variety of partners.
- Yes, you're new and I like to make people feel accepted.
- Yes, but you're too good. I hope I don't dance too badly
for you or step on your toes. ***
- Yes, I don't care about the dancing, but I would like to
spend 3 minutes looking into your dreamy [color] eyes.
- Whoa baby, 3 minutes near your body! I hope I remember
to move my feet.
- Yes, I'm looking forward to a enjoyable dance with you.
- Yes, and why didn't you ask me sooner? ! ***
Others?
:^)
IMHO. YMMV. (*** actually heard on the dance floor)
dance...@earthlink.net
memiki wrote:
>
> My hurt feelings from refusals are my problem to deal with; and if I so
> desire, I have the power to control the situation by asking or not
> asking again, whatever works.
>
> That said, the "No's" are not easy to give or to receive.......but they
> can contribute to one's growth..........particularly if that "one" is
> not used to being refused anything :)
>
> Miki
Bravo, well said!
I have had and still get my share of refusals and I dish my share out
too. It is our own psyche that makes us feel the way we do when we
project motivations in others.
Is it really that disappointing to be refused by somebody with poor
selection criteria?
My .02
Chris Brown
Camarillo, CA
avid_...@uymail.com
> I can't make others behave how I would like them to. All I can control
> is my own attitude. I feel good about myself as long as I live up to my
> own standards. That includes trying my best during every dance,
> smiling and thanking my partners, being kind to those who are kind to
> me and being polite to those who are not nice to me, showering and
> brushing my teeth before going out, etc. That also includes
> appreciating nearly every partner for something, whether it be his
> dancing, his looks, his jokes, his conversational skills, his manners,
> or just the fact that he wants to dance with me.
>
> Dancing is just like everything else in life. Sometimes things go my
> way, sometimes they don't. People create cliques and societal rules.
> I like some people. I don't like others. Some like me, some don't.
> There are some that I like, but don't agree with. (Wouldn't life be
> boring if we all agreed all the time?)
Christine, your little friends are wrong. They have been
affected by the skepticism of a sceptical age. They do
not believe except what they see. They think that
nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their
little minds. All minds, Christine, whether they be
men's or children's, are little. In this great universe
of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect
as compared with the boundless world about him, as
measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the
whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, Christine, there is a Dancing Clause.
It exists as certainly as love and generosity and
devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give
to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how
dreary would be the world if there were no Dancing
Clause! It would be as dreary as if there were no
Christines. There would be no childlike faith then, no
poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We
should have no enjoyment, except in sense and
sight. The external light with which childhood fills
the world would be extinguished.
avid_...@uymail.com
Wow. You're jumping out of your analytical skin! :-)
Now, how are you at the actual delivery of these lines?
Peter D
news:1161806540.3...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Peter D wrote:
>>I would like to hear any women who can offer their
>> perspective and experiences on men who say "no". Do you consider them
>> rude
>> automatically? To you keep a mental numerical list of their infractions?
>> Do
>> you get all wounded and huffy regardless of why they said "no"? Please,
>> do
>> tell.
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Miki and I (both women) have already shared some of our experiences in
> this thread. But since you missed those, here is my perspective.
Thank you for your persepctive, Christine. You seem to be a normal peosn who
deals with the normal give and take of human relaitonships properly, with a
sense of your own self and not self-importance. :-)
For the record, I've been told "no" with and without explanation, with
dishonest explanations, and with honest explanations. I have found that
maybe dancing in non-sudio clubs and bars makes for thicker skin. At my
favourite bar, it was only after a time that I could ask certain ladies to
dance and reasonably anticipate a "yes". First you had to establish yourself
as a safe person, and then as a good dancer. You also have to be very sure
give the right signals in a bar -- otheewsir you cna find yourself in aheap
of trouble! I suppose because there is no "rule" enforcing compliance
regardless of your signal. I remember one night dancing with these three
friends, very pretty ladies, and a young man I knew (an excellent dancer)
asked me how come they danced with me. I said, "Maybe it's because when I
ask them to dance they know that's all I'm asking them to do." :-) He was a
good sport, and knew what I meant. He changed his signals and approach and
now -- years later -- I see that he rarely sits. He is considered a
"gentleman" and a good dancer. I'd like to think that my firendly suggesiton
helped him earn that reputation.
My concern is not with those who object to a woman saying "no", only with
those who judge such a woman as "rude" or insist that there should be social
censure because they did so.
Mike Corbett
It's been years since I've danced regularly in a public bar, unless a
specific "dance" community of which I was a part, constituted the vast
majority of patrons for a specific night. However, I did start in the
hay day of C/W dancing in the early 90's. I would spend 5 or 6 nights
a week at the local Honky Tonk. On one occasion, about a year after I
started dancing regularly, I came back to my table after a couple
dances and making the rounds visiting some friends. Seated at my
table were 6 female dance friends, two pairs of women and two who came
without their usual sidekicks. They had been talking while I was gone
and said they had a question for me.
The question was something along the order of "Why do you have so many
women friends sitting with you?" I answered simply, "Because I don't
hit on them." They all knew this to be true, so they understood
completely. It's not that I wasn't getting my share of romance, it's
just that I made many dance friends. I kept the romance separate. One
New Years Eve at that establishment, there were six women at the table
having breakfast with me an other friends. At one time or another I
had met (at the same honky tonk) and dated three of those women.
There were three others in the establishment that night I had also
dated.
Dance friends are dance friends. Romance is romance. For some years,
I traveled a lot on business, so I would find out the local
establishment frequented by the "dancers" and show up. I quickly
learned how to take time to scope out the people and territory so that
as a stranger, I could mix in and dance without being turned down. I
miss that. Heck, I just miss dancing. I haven't done any since
Easter.
Mike Corbett
Ron N.
> Now, how are you at the actual delivery of these lines?
I'm a guy, and seldom get asked to dance when I'm out
social dancing.
IMHO. YMMV.
Huck Kennedy
>
> I believe each of us is. I believe that we have a duty, for lack of a
> better word, to ensure that everyone who goes to a dance to dance
> gets to dance at the dance they've gone to to dance. That means
> noticing if some people are sitting too (however you might interpret
> that) long and asking those people to dance.
D0 U HAV3 A HAWT W1F3???? W4NNA 60 2 AN 0RGY????????
Huck
Ed Jay
You've been smoking that skunk weed again, haven't you? :-))
Ron N.
> Huck Kennedy scribed:
> ...
looks like someone forgot to log out of a public terminal
or something... :^P
shiden_kai
> Well, I suppose it's considered a "gender-neutral" rule, but whenever
> I hear it discussed it's always in the context of men complaining
> that women don't say "yes" whenever they ask. So it seems to me that
> the actual experience is not gender-neutral.
Other people are saying the same thing, but in our neck of the
woods, it would definitely be because most of the women who
come out to the WCS dance don't ask men to dance. So the
responsibility to ask is left up to the men. I actually hate this,
and often counsel friends of mine who I dance with and who
are single women that this is a bad idea. There is almost always
more women then men at our dances.....there are always a
certain percentage of women who have discovered that if
they want to dance, they better get their ass in gear and
"ask". I usually never refuse a dance. Ooops, yes, there are
two women I do not dance with. One continually insulted
me while dancing with me, the other one has insulted my
wife on more then one occasion, and it's simply not worth
my time dancing with her.
I'm married, so there are times that I do refuse dances,
simply because if I didn't refuse the dance, I would be
neglecting my wife. She expects to dance with me for
a certain portion of the evening, and if I'm not careful,
I can easily be dancing the whole night with everyone
else. This does not go over well with her!
Fortunately, "all" of the women who I dance with
totally understand this and are quite fine with it. Most
of the women are single and have had the experience
of going out with some guy to a dance event and have
been "left" at the table while he dances with everyone
else. So when I mention that I'm going to go dance
with my wife, they love it, and believe me to be
a gentlemen (little do they know).
So....the women that believe that men should always
ask, usually end up not dancing as much as the women
who have figured out that if you want to dance, you
better start asking.
I have been refused by women who are intimidated by
what they "percieve" to be my level of dancing. Of course,
this is totally ridiculous, as I'm a newbie compared to any
of ya'll down south, but when you are dealing with someone
who's just learned the basics, they are afraid that you will
attempt to drive them through all sorts of moves that will
make them look stupid. Little do they know that all I do
is basics.
I do hate dancing with women who won't look at me
during the dance. I usually avoid them for a while. There
is just something creepy about dancing with someone who
won't make at least "some" eye contact with you. On the
other hand, I'm sure that some people stare the whole
dance, that would be nasty too.
Ian
Huck Kennedy
Wow. Did the point sail right over everybody
else's head too?
Huck
Ed Jay
I blame it on the skunk! ;-)
Peter D
news:J7pqE...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu...
I have no idea why you stopped taking those anti-psychotics, Huck, but you
might want to grab a handful and a glass of water ASAP.
BTW, O Clueless One, the above quote? It wasn't me.
Peter D
news:KQS%g.191213$1T2.107925@pd7urf2no...
> Peter D wrote:
>> Well, I suppose it's considered a "gender-neutral" rule, but whenever
>> I hear it discussed it's always in the context of men complaining
>> that women don't say "yes" whenever they ask. So it seems to me that
>> the actual experience is not gender-neutral.
<snip>
> So....the women that believe that men should always
> ask, usually end up not dancing as much as the women
> who have figured out that if you want to dance, you
> better start asking.
OI knwo a few local ladies who constantly complain that certian women always
get dances (and they don't). I know the dancing ladies as well, and they
aren't afraid to come right up to you and ask for a dance. When I suggest
the sitting ladies just ask, they respond that they aren't "that kind of a
woman". I presumed they meant "a woman who asks a man to dance" or "a woman
who makes sure she spends more time dancing than sitting", but they
corrected me. They have some strange idea that (a) women who ask men to
dance are "loose" or present themselves thusly, and (b) sour faces attract
men more than smiles, and (c) men must ask them to dance and knwo to do so
by reading their minds. So far it doesn't seem to be working out for them.
I say, "Ask and ye shall receive" :-)
Bob Wheatley
I didn't "get" Huck's attempt at humor either but in the FWIW department
when you replied to Ike's post earlier today the quote marks ">" that
indicate previous messages did not show up. It confused me for a moment too
until I recalled that Ike had actually wrote those words.
I don't know why the ">" was missing, but they were.
Bob Wheatley
christin...@hotmail.com
Christine, your little friends are wrong. They have been
> affected by the skepticism of a sceptical age. They do
> not believe except what they see. They think that
> nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their
> little minds. All minds, Christine, whether they be
> men's or children's, are little. In this great universe
> of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect
> as compared with the boundless world about him, as
> measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the
> whole of truth and knowledge.
>
> Yes, Christine, there is a Dancing Clause.
>
> It exists as certainly as love and generosity and
> devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give
> to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how
> dreary would be the world if there were no Dancing
> Clause! It would be as dreary as if there were no
> Christines. There would be no childlike faith then, no
> poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We
> should have no enjoyment, except in sense and
> sight. The external light with which childhood fills
> the world would be extinguished.
Hi Avid Dancer. Do I know you? Have we met? What is your name?
I must admit that I don't really get what you meant by this. I do
understand the allusion, but not why you posted it. Are you
appreciating what I wrote or mocking it as childlike? Or just being
whimsical? Absent being able to hear your tone of voice, see your
facial expression, or knowing your personality, I have no how to
interpret your intention.
Christine
Ron N.
> I knwo a few local ladies who constantly complain that certian women always
> get dances (and they don't). I know the dancing ladies as well, and they
> aren't afraid to come right up to you and ask for a dance. When I suggest
> the sitting ladies just ask, they respond that they aren't "that kind of a
> woman". I presumed they meant "a woman who asks a man to dance" or "a woman
> who makes sure she spends more time dancing than sitting", but they
> corrected me. They have some strange idea that (a) women who ask men to
> dance are "loose" or present themselves thusly, and (b) sour faces attract
> men more than smiles, and (c) men must ask them to dance and knwo to do
> so by reading their minds.
Sounds like women playing according to "The Rules" (a book
about some manipulative behaviors in order to "catch" the
right man). If they're attracted to guys who like that game,
or unattracted to men who don't play by those rules (or are
too socially clueless to know how to bluff), then they're
stuck playing the matching "Rules" role.
> So far it doesn't seem to be working out for them.
It might be working out perfectly, given their unstated goals.
Ed Jay
christin...@hotmail.com
> You seem to be a normal peosn who
> deals with the normal give and take of human relaitonships properly, with a
> sense of your own self and not self-importance. :-)
Wow, thanks! Can I quote you on that? I know not everyone would call
me normal, so I need all the back-up I can get.
>
> My concern is not with those who object to a woman saying "no", only with
> those who judge such a woman as "rude" or insist that there should be social
> censure because they did so.
I can understand and appreciate that. I know of too many friends who
have been date raped, and I don't blame anyone for teaching their
daughters to say no, loudly and clearly, and teaching their sons to
respect that. A woman is certainly not obligated to fulfill a man's
wishes.
But I don't think that the male posters in this forum are expecting
anything of women that they wouldn't expect of themselves. I think
their focus on the woman's response to a request to dance is just
because they have not had the experience of being turned down rudely by
a man.
I bristle at any suggestion that anyone is obligated to live up to a
relative stranger's wishes during their leisure time. I believe in free
will, and understand that different people have different goals when
they go out for an evening, and wish that people would not judge other
people as rude when they are just different.
That being said, I prefer to conduct myself more like Larry and Ike. I
rarely turn down a dance. And I would rather attend a dance with men
like Larry and Ike in attendance, so I could do lots of dancing, and
not spend as much time asking and getting refused. I have witnessed
some shockingly rude refusals, and part of me wishes that such rudeness
would be rewarded by the rdue people getting fewer dance requests. But
that is rarely how it works. Some of the rudest people get the most
dance requests.
Christine
Icono Clast
> "Bob Wheatley" wrote
>> "barry" wrote:
>>>> the "traditional" rules of etiquette apply.
>
>>> But the problem is that some insist that those "traditional
>>> rules of etiquette" require a woman to assent to a man's
>>> request for a dance. If she fails to do so -- and without
>>> hesitation for some -- she is the one being "rude". that's
>>> nonsense and sexist.
>
>> Jus' keepin' it real here Peter. Barry didn't turn this into a
>> sexist issue. You did. He wrote about "people" and you somehow
>> convoluted his context into "women" in your reply.
>
> considered rude for doing so" so
Only one person has said it's rude to refuse an invitation to dance.
I don't remember anyone agreeing with the statement. Although you
have implied that I said it, I did not.
> I see no reason to not just say "women" and be done with it.
I do. It isn't about women or men. It's about refusing an invitation
to dance.
> Unless any women want to complain about men who say "no"
At least three have already made related comments. Pay attention.
> and are thus considered rude. Anyone?
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Icono Clast
> Don't you have something better to do, like have some woman's
> breast accidentally end up in your cupped palm or a teenager to
> leer at?
>
> apologise to all those you've harmed."
>
> you have a rep for taking [an invitation to dance] as an
> "invitation to grope".
>
> You might as well claim that your groping of women that was
> discussed last month is OK because there are men who rape them."
At the most recent convention I attended, I tried hard to notice what
might be negative reactions to me. The vast majority of my Followers
were happily smiling as we danced, spoke appreciatively after we
danced, occasionally held on to me saying "Let's dance another", and
even sometimes lauded my skill. One delayed our separation and put my
hand in that of a young woman saying to her "You have to dance with
him" and "this is my daughter" to me.
More than a quarter, probably close to a third of my dances, I was
the asked, not the asker. I had never before made it a point to
notice but I tried to this time. The few who turned me down were
probably no greater in number than experienced by other askers.
At local dances, places where I've been going for many years,
virtually everyone dances with me. New people often ask with comments
such as "My friend says I have to dance with you".
The evidence is on the floor. Anyone who bothers to look can see the
way I'm treated on and off the floor, and the obvious pleasure on the
faces of my partners while we dance. Such simple observations should
cause great doubt about the things said about me here.
I don't know, but I've been told, that word spreads rapidly about
people who really are groping creeps; they quickly get so few dances
they split the scene. I'm very much a part of the local general
dancing scene and the Swing scene around the USA. I intend to remain
so as long as my old body is able to give good dances to those who
accept my invitation to dance.
You're not worth any more of my time, Peter D.
Icono Clast
> And yes, sometimes it hurts my feelings to get turned down, and I
> am grateful when someone (like Ike) notices that and asks me to
> dance. I am only human, after all!
Thank YOU!
Over the years I've been told that people do notice the things, nice
and not-so, people do at dances.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ -<->- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 -------> IClast at Gmail com
--
Icono Clast
> I do hate dancing with women who won't look at me during the
> dance.
Me, too.
There's a cute woman, a good physical match for me even though she's
much younger, with whom I didn't dance for about five years. I had
forgotten why so asked her and instantly knew: She didn't look at me.
I probably won't dance with her again until I forget why I don't.
> On the other hand, I'm sure that some people stare the whole
> dance, that would be nasty too.
That's not what I call it. Drives nuts. I love it! And those who do
it know what it does -- certainly to me, perhaps to us!
When Leading on a floor where I don't have to worry about traffic, my
eyes are fixed on m'partner's. When Following, m'eyes are fixed on
m'partner's as much as possible. This makes me a lesser Follower than
I could be as I miss many visual Leads.
-- ________________________________________________________________
Un San Francisqueño quien nunca dice ¡No! a una invitación a bailar.
Icono Clast
> But I don't think that the male posters in this forum are
> expecting anything of women that they wouldn't expect of
> themselves. I think their focus on the woman's response to a
> request to dance is just because they have not had the experience
> of being turned down rudely by a man.
I have.
This man is quite good looking and a wonderful dancer. He has had
more success in seducing women than anyone I've ever met. No, he
hasn't told me that; the women have. I can't tell you how many have
proudly told me how good a lover he is (I really wish they hadn't and
don't know why they have). I have watched him operate and can imagine
his successes of which I've not been told.
One evening I saw him beginning to work on one of my ex-lovers. I
managed to get a moment with her and she breathlessly thanked me for
getting her away from him as she was ready and willing to go any
where to do anything with him. He had cast his spell; all it needed,
for her, was a tiny break.
Anyway, we were at a dance with no available women so I asked him to
dance.
Well, his reaction was quite surprising. I wish I could quote his
refusal but my request seemed to have been taken as a threat to his
masculinity, something in which I thought he was far more secure than
most of the rest of us.
I've previously told about a total stranger in Santa Fé who accepted
my invitation to dance. It's too late to look for it now.
> That being said, I prefer to conduct myself more like Larry and
> Ike. I rarely turn down a dance. And I would rather attend a
> dance with men like Larry and Ike in attendance, so I could do
> lots of dancing, and not spend as much time asking and getting
> refused.
Thank you, Christine.
Join me for dinner before, rather than at, the Borderline? But I
wouldn't mind a Borderline burger if you'd be more comfortable there.
-- ________________________________________________________________
What is dancing but making love to the music? - Diana Krall
Peter D
news:1161836594.2...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I think you're reading way too much into this. Knowing them quite well, I'll
say that they are caught in an archaic system where they believe that to ask
is to lower themselves. They're also sour and scowly a lot of the time. And
they seem to be mean-spritied about their sisters who have decided Screw the
rules! I'm gonna ask!"
Peter D
news:12k082t...@corp.supernews.com...
I looked back,and yup, that's what happened. It only happens with Ike's
messages and then only sometimes. In the last 24 hours he's done something
different that resulted in his posts being attributed properly, then not,
then properly. I dunno what it is, but I wish he would fix it or stop doing
whatever it is that he's doing.
Peter D
news:4540930b$0$19712$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> Peter D wrote:
>> Don't you have something better to do, like have some woman's breast
>> accidentally end up in your cupped palm or a teenager to leer at?
>>
>> apologise to all those you've harmed."
>>
>> you have a rep for taking [an invitation to dance] as an "invitation to
>> grope".
>>
>> You might as well claim that your groping of women that was discussed
>> last month is OK because there are men who rape them."
Well, I cancelled the original but as you want to edit it and reply, I'll
suppose you aren't' ofeended.
<self-congratulatory stories deleted>
Well, there you go, Ike. As you claimed, all the women who felt groped
leered at by you are fantasizing. ZAll the men who saw this behaviour are
making it up. You were so victimised. Poor dear.
Huck Kennedy
>
> > I didn't "get" Huck's attempt at humor either but in the FWIW department
> > when you replied to Ike's post earlier today the quote marks ">" that
> > indicate previous messages did not show up. It confused me for a moment
> > too until I recalled that Ike had actually wrote those words.
> > I don't know why the ">" was missing, but they were.
>
> I looked back,and yup, that's what happened. It only happens with Ike's
> messages and then only sometimes. In the last 24 hours he's done something
> different that resulted in his posts being attributed properly, then not,
> then properly. I dunno what it is, but I wish he would fix it or stop doing
> whatever it is that he's doing.
I keep waiting to hear, "Gosh, sorry Huck!", but
I'm hearing nothing.
It's also interesting the way you blame what you
yourself put out on the newswires on someone else.
You can't see your postings before you send them out?
Huck
Huck Kennedy
> >>>
> >>> I believe each of us is. I believe that we have a duty, for lack of a
> >>> better word, to ensure that everyone who goes to a dance to dance
> >>> gets to dance at the dance they've gone to to dance. That means
> >>> noticing if some people are sitting too (however you might interpret
> >>> that) long and asking those people to dance.
> >>
> >> D0 U HAV3 A HAWT W1F3???? W4NNA 60 2 AN 0RGY????????
> >
> > but you might want to grab a handful and a glass of water ASAP.
> >
> > BTW, O Clueless One, the above quote? It wasn't me.
>
> I didn't "get" Huck's attempt at humor either
I simply meant to both humorously and sarcastically
indicate that I do not subscribe to the quoted statement
about duty plagiarized by Peter D (but apparently written
by IconoClast), and was applying IconoClast's attitude
to another scenario where presumably it would still be
applied by him. In other words, assuming he and his wife
or girlfriend (assuming he's both male and romantically
involved with a woman) both subscribed to his general
theory that it is their duty to ensure that everyone who
goes to an event gets to participate, I figured they'd be
a great couple to attend an orgy with, because when I hit
on her I'd have at least one guaranteed "yes."
As for the caps and disjointed confusing numbers with
letters go, have none of you heard of Usenet "Biffspeak?"
You all need to get out more to other groups on Usenet!
Huck
Ed Jay
Huck, I'm sure that I speak for many here when I say I hope you get well
soon. Or, go into the business of selling whatever the hell it is that drove
you to write the above. Put me down for a ton. :-)) ROTFLOL!
Here, to keep you busy while undergoing your recovery <g>, is a little
puzzle I put together for a techie newsgroup I'm in. Can you decrypt the
following? Can anyone? It's a two-step process. The first step will be
simple for a couple of people. Once past the first step, the second step is
easy.
A little puzzle for crypto fans. Decode the following:
Szczsczssszz zssszz zscccsscc cszzccccscszczszcc scczssszczsc
cczzzzcsszzcczszccszz zssccc szczsczcczsscss cczccsszsszczsc szzccsszsccczcz
scczsczccccc szczsczccssz szzcszzcczzzczc. Szczsczcc szzccsszsccczczszz
zzzcsszcc cszzzzcssszczsszzsszsczszzzcssczsssz cszcsszccsczzccczszzzcccszc
zssccc szczsczcc szzccsszsszczsczcccssccc csszcczszzssccscccszz ccszcs
szczsczcc SzsSzzZzz...zzzccczcz Szczccscszzzszz.
zscszcszccsz://sccsccscc.ccczzzcczzccszzszscszcszcsszccszzszzzcczcz.zzsccsccz/czczccccccccssz/
Ralph Kennedy
>
> Here, to keep you busy while undergoing your recovery <g>, is a little
> puzzle I put together for a techie newsgroup I'm in. Can you decrypt the
> following? Can anyone?
>
> cczzzzcsszzcczszccszz zssccc szczsczcczsscss cczccsszsszczsc szzccsszsccczcz
> scczsczccccc szczsczccssz szzcszzcczzzczc. Szczsczcc szzccsszsccczczszz
> zzzcsszcc cszzzzcssszczsszzsszsczszzzcssczsssz cszcsszccsczzccczszzzcccszc
> zssccc szczsczcc szzccsszsszczsczcccssccc csszcczszzssccscccszz ccszcs
> szczsczcc SzsSzzZzz...zzzccczcz Szczccscszzzszz.
> zscszcszccsz://sccsccscc.ccczzzcczzccszzszscszcszcsszccszzszzzcczcz.zzsccsccz/czczccccccccssz/
Well that didn't take long. Does this mean I'm recovered?
WARNING SPOILER FOLLOWS AFTER SEVERAL LINES
This is how people with marbles in their mouth sound
when they speak. The sounds are particularly
prevelant in the southern regions of the USA...and
Texas. http://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny
Except you misspelled "prevalent," DUMNAS5!@1!!!
--Ralph Kennedy {ames,gatech,husc6,rutgers}!ncar!noao!asuvax!kennedy
{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,oddjob}--^
^---------------The Wrong Choice
internet: ken...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
Ed Jay
>Ed Jay <ed...@aes-intl.com> writes:
>>
>> Here, to keep you busy while undergoing your recovery <g>, is a little
>> puzzle I put together for a techie newsgroup I'm in. Can you decrypt the
>> following? Can anyone?
>>
>> Szczsczssszz zssszz zscccsscc cszzccccscszczszcc scczssszczsc
>> cczzzzcsszzcczszccszz zssccc szczsczcczsscss cczccsszsszczsc szzccsszsccczcz
>> scczsczccccc szczsczccssz szzcszzcczzzczc. Szczsczcc szzccsszsccczczszz
>> zzzcsszcc cszzzzcssszczsszzsszsczszzzcssczsssz cszcsszccsczzccczszzzcccszc
>> zssccc szczsczcc szzccsszsszczsczcccssccc csszcczszzssccscccszz ccszcs
>> szczsczcc SzsSzzZzz...zzzccczcz Szczccscszzzszz.
>> zscszcszccsz://sccsccscc.ccczzzcczzccszzszscszcszcsszccszzszzzcczcz.zzsccsccz/czczccccccccssz/
>
> Well that didn't take long. Does this mean I'm recovered?
No...only a real sicko would have taken on the task. :-)))
I figured that three people on r.a.d. would definitely know how to decrypt
it. You, jc and Robert Emmons. One down, two to go. :-)
Ed
>
>WARNING SPOILER FOLLOWS AFTER SEVERAL LINES
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This is how people with marbles in their mouth sound
> when they speak. The sounds are particularly
> prevelant in the southern regions of the USA...and
> Texas. http://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny
>
>Except you misspelled "prevalent," DUMNAS5!@1!!!
I stand korrektid.
Bob Wheatley
Thanks Huck,
I could read the invitation to the orgy (no thanks btw) and assumed you were
poking fun at the "never say no" dictum, but because of Peter's penchant for
misspelling and the confusion over his and Ike's post I was completely
baffled by the "biffspeak".
(Which I have not heard of as that specifically but have seen that format
before)
Bob Wheatley
Huck Kennedy
> Ralph Kennedy scribed:
> >Ed Jay <ed...@aes-intl.com> writes:
> >>
> >> Here, to keep you busy while undergoing your recovery <g>, is a little
> >> puzzle I put together for a techie newsgroup I'm in. Can you decrypt the
> >> following? Can anyone?
> >>
> >> Szczsczssszz zssszz zscccsscc cszzccccscszczszcc scczssszczsc
> >> cczzzzcsszzcczszccszz zssccc szczsczcczsscss cczccsszsszczsc szzccsszsccczcz
> >> scczsczccccc szczsczccssz szzcszzcczzzczc. Szczsczcc szzccsszsccczczszz
> >> zzzcsszcc cszzzzcssszczsszzsszsczszzzcssczsssz cszcsszccsczzccczszzzcccszc
> >> zssccc szczsczcc szzccsszsszczsczcccssccc csszcczszzssccscccszz ccszcs
> >> szczsczcc SzsSzzZzz...zzzccczcz Szczccscszzzszz.
> >> zscszcszccsz://sccsccscc.ccczzzcczzccszzszscszcszcsszccszzszzzcczcz.zzsccsccz/czczccccccccssz/
> >
> > Well that didn't take long. Does this mean I'm recovered?
>
> No...only a real sicko would have taken on the task. :-)))
D'OH!!!!! Fell for that one.
Huck
Joe Ho
news:1161809158.8...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> memiki wrote:
>>
>> My hurt feelings from refusals are my problem to deal with; and if I so
>> desire, I have the power to control the situation by asking or not
>> asking again, whatever works.
>>
>> That said, the "No's" are not easy to give or to receive.......but they
>> can contribute to one's growth..........particularly if that "one" is
>> not used to being refused anything :)
>>
>> Miki
>
> Bravo, well said!
>
> I have had and still get my share of refusals and I dish my share out
> too. It is our own psyche that makes us feel the way we do when we
> project motivations in others.
>
> Is it really that disappointing to be refused by somebody with poor
> selection criteria?
>
> My .02
>
> Chris Brown
> Camarillo, CA
>
This is a rather amusing topic. Having been dancing for a few years (mostly
WCS), I myself have gone through the emotional rollercoaster of rejection,
though I have gotten to the point of total acceptance of any rejection,
without any explanation. The reason is quite simple and I'll explain
shortly. My viewpoint has, in recent years, been to take a dimmer view of
leaders when it comes to rejection, both giving and receiving. I believe
it's due to two things:
* Ego
* Attitude
Having talked with MANY people, leaders and followers, I've concluded that
(aside from actual good reasons) leaders reject because of poor attitude,
with excuses ranging from:
* Wanting to dance with someone of equal level or better (not really a bad
excuse, just an honest one)
* She's not good enough for me
* Follower is hard to lead
* Not fun to dance with the follower
* She's not good looking enough (I've actually heard this a few times)
I'll explain later why the above excuses are really poor excuses. I won't
even bother with the last one as it's self evident. While it's not
necessary to give any explanation when rejecting someone, I personally feel
that it's beneficial to give one (something called good will). And if you
don't have a good reason or want to give one, I believe you should at least
say no with a smile. Many times it's not what you say but how you say it.
As for leaders being rejected, I'm at a point where I ALWAYS give the
followers the benefit of the doubt and see no reason why anyone should be
upset when rejected, except for something called the ego. Here's my
reasoning:
Once again, having chatted with many followers, I've come to understand the
risk that ALL followers run of getting hurt when dancing. And I have seen
some followers get seriously hurt. Leaders, as the term implies, get to
lead. This means we, for the most part, know what's about to happen and
when. Not that leaders can't get hurt. It's just that a leader's odds of
getting hurt is far less than a follower's. Followers, by the nature of
most dances, are mostly trying to react (and sometimes guessing). It is
very easy for any follower to get hurt or "banged up" at all levels of
dancing when leads go awry. My general impression, from chatting with
various followers, is that there are maybe 20-30% of the leaders, max, in
the entire dance population where followers will have little to no fear of
getting hurt with. I am talking a level of confidence, not level of
dancing. Assuming there are 100 guys at a social dance. This would mean
any follower will feel completely safe with up to 30 guys. Assuming an
average song lasts 4 minutes and the evening dance is for 4 hours. That
means 60 dances max for any given follower that night. Unless the follower
is absolutely great AND lucky, chances are good that she will end up dancing
with "less desirable" leaders during those 60 dances. At most dance venues
that I am aware of, 'good' leaders (and followers) get grabbed quickly. So
unless a follower is next to or close by all 30 'good' leaders, she's not
likely to get to dance with all 30 of them (though she may, against
etiquette, grab the same guy for several dances) and most definitely not for
all 60 dances. Even if the number if off and it's closer to 60-70% or
higher, it doesn't really matter. My guess is that it takes only one bad
leader to spook any follower, or at least heighten the sense of concern
regarding the pool of leaders in general, or to sharpen a follower's focus
to only dancing with 'good' leaders. Bottom line, while followers may
advance in their skills to defend again bad leaders, there still exist a
decent chance of getting hurt, from both good and bad leaders. From my
perspective, I can easily understand why any follower would say no to me,
especially if she doesn't know me from Adam. And even if she does know me,
there are plenty of good reason to turn me down (see below). So if a
follower turns me down, I will always give her the benefit of the doubt and
have no expectation that she will ever seek me out. To think any other way
would only ruin my evening.
To touch on the subject of leaders rejecting followers, my philosophy is to
avoid it. I have certainly turned people down for the following reasons:
* Water break
* Potty break
* Shirt change (and boy, do I need to do that often)
* Sheer exhaustion (and even then I try to keep going)
* Promised a dance to someone else
* Wanting to finish my conversation with someone
* Really, really, really bad follower (I'm ashamed to say I've done this,
though not in recent years)
Basic principle that I try to follow: Treat others as I'd like to be
treated. So if I've turned someone down, I will always make an attempt to
find that person again later, though I'll admit to being a bit forgetful
sometimes.
The attitude that I try to adopt when dancing is simple - always challenge
myself. I counter each of the following excuses with a positive:
* Don't like the music - You can always challenge yourself to find nuances
in the music that you may not realize is there. I've certainly discovered
things in music that I didn't realize was there by observing my partner.
I've had on several occasions said, "I never realized that that was in the
music," even though I may have heard the song many times.
* Follower is hard to lead - Boy, if there ever was a challenge, this is IT!
Find ways to overcome anything she may throw at you. And it's entirely
possible that the problem is not with the follower, but with you the leader.
Every follower is special in her own way. The challenge is to make the
necessary adjustments so that the dance is a dance, not a fight.
* She's not good enough for me - As far as I am concerned, there is no such
thing for a leader. If you're as good as you think you are then whether a
follower is a beginner or a pro, you can always challenge yourself to make
the follower look good (and feel good). Personally, the ultimate challenge
is whether I can end the dance with a smile on my partner's face.
* She's not fun to dance with - This is really about one's attitude. If you
believe someone is no fun, then you'll never make the attempt to play along
with her, match her movements or 'follow' along with her. This, in my
humble opinion, may also be a control issue.
In summary, if you can let go of your ego and believe that you can have fun,
you will. Unless you get turned down by EVERY single follower, you can find
fun in every dance and you shouldn't be the least bit offended by anyone
turning you down, with or without explanation. And if you do get turned
down by everyone, maybe it's time to lay off those garlic fries before a
dance or to check that deodorant...
Joe
Icono Clast
> IconoClast's attitude [applied] to another scenario where
> presumably it would still be applied by him. In other words,
> assuming he and his wife or girlfriend (assuming he's both male
> and romantically involved with a woman) both subscribed to his
> general theory that it is their duty to ensure that everyone who
> goes to an event gets to participate, I figured they'd be a great
> couple to attend an orgy with, because when I hit on her I'd have
> at least one guaranteed "yes."
You'd be correct, as basic principals are widely applicable.
Unfortunately, I've never been able to get beyond envy and admiration
for bi- and try-sexuals.
-- ________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who'll dance with anyone who'll dance with me!
avid_...@uymail.com
> Hi Avid Dancer. Do I know you? Have we met? What is your name?
No. You and I have never met and are unlikely to ever do so
since we travel in different circles.
> I must admit that I don't really get what you meant by this. I do
> understand the allusion, but not why you posted it. Are you
> appreciating what I wrote or mocking it as childlike? Or just being
> whimsical? Absent being able to hear your tone of voice, see your
> facial expression, or knowing your personality, I have no how to
> interpret your intention.
Somewhat whimsical and somewhat serious. The discussions
in this thread remind me of the lines from Miracle on 34th St.,
pitting the spiritual against reality. To me, the Dancing Clause
is intended to foster a spirit of friendship and community, where
everyone gets to participate without fear of rejection. Of course,
the reality is that people are subject to human emotions, needs,
and limitations. (A lot of) people go partner dancing to get
away from it all, to be somehow in a kinder, gentler, imaginary
world. Much like how Xmas and Santa Claus represent good
will to all people, regardless of realities.
I am of the belief that if one "imagines" that one can be kinder
and more considerate of the quirks and limitations of one's
fellow dancers, the world would be a better place in the long
run. I have often personally found that overlooking momentary
transgressions by and difficulties with other people usually
results in long-term good will. There are people I don't dance
with (and don't particularly like dancing with) that I am very
friendly with nevertheless. Of course, this what we should
aspire to do, not necessarily what can be accomplished.
Joe Ho has provided a good, comprehensive, analysis of the
realities, especially in regards with risk of injury for followers.
Peter D
> "Peter D" <please@.sk> writes:
>> "Bob Wheatley" <xmaster...@directway.com> wrote:
>> > "Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> BTW, O Clueless One, the above quote? It wasn't me.
>>
>> > I didn't "get" Huck's attempt at humor either but in the FWIW
>> > department
>> > when you replied to Ike's post earlier today the quote marks ">" that
>> > indicate previous messages did not show up. It confused me for a moment
>> > too until I recalled that Ike had actually wrote those words.
>> > I don't know why the ">" was missing, but they were.
>>
>> I looked back,and yup, that's what happened. It only happens with Ike's
>> messages and then only sometimes. In the last 24 hours he's done
>> something
>> different that resulted in his posts being attributed properly, then not,
>> then properly. I dunno what it is, but I wish he would fix it or stop
>> doing
>> whatever it is that he's doing.
>
> I keep waiting to hear, "Gosh, sorry Huck!", but I'm hearing nothing.
If you're talking to me, Huck, be plainspeak about it. Assuming you are, why
would I apologise to you because you failed to follow a conversation thread?
> It's also interesting the way you blame what you
> yourself put out on the newswires on someone else.
Once again, Huck, I didn't write the words you attributed to me. I'm not
blaming anyone else for what I siad because -- and here is where your
cluelessness once again becomes evident -- I didnt' say it. Get it?
> You can't see your postings before you send them out?
I can. How about you? Maybe you need your mommy to check your missives
before they get sent.
Peter D
> "Bob Wheatley" <xmaster...@directway.com> writes:
>> "Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote in message
>> > "Huck Kennedy" <ken...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu> wrote in message
>> >> "Peter D" <please@.sk> writes:
>> >>>
>> >>> I believe each of us is. I believe that we have a duty, for lack of a
>> >>> better word, to ensure that everyone who goes to a dance to dance
>> >>> gets to dance at the dance they've gone to to dance. That means
>> >>> noticing if some people are sitting too (however you might interpret
>> >>> that) long and asking those people to dance.
>> >>
>> >> D0 U HAV3 A HAWT W1F3???? W4NNA 60 2 AN 0RGY????????
>> >
>> > I have no idea why you stopped taking those anti-psychotics, Huck,
>> > but you might want to grab a handful and a glass of water ASAP.
>> >
>> > BTW, O Clueless One, the above quote? It wasn't me.
>>
>> I didn't "get" Huck's attempt at humor either
>
> I simply meant to both humorously and sarcastically
> indicate that I do not subscribe to the quoted statement
> about duty plagiarized by Peter D
"duty"? I think you meant "duly". Assuming you did, get yourself a life,
Huck. Humping my cyber-leg ain't getting you anywhere. As for "plagiarized"?
Not by me. You're inability to follow a thread renders you even more
clueless than I first thought.
Peter D
"rejection". It's not. "Rejection" is a negative and emotionally-laden word.
"No, thank you" is just a simple informing of a deciosn not to
participate -- usually at this moment. It's interesting that "No thank you"
causes no such emoitional anguish in lots of other situations. I wonder why
dancing is so differnet.
Peter D
<snip>
> unless a follower is next to or close by all 30 'good' leaders, she's not
> likely to get to dance with all 30 of them (though she may, against
> etiquette, grab the same guy for several dances)
Another "rule"? In a local club I was told that you never dance more than
two dances with the popular ladies -- three only if you are smitten. :-)
At a studio dance I've danced more than once with the same lady, usually a
friend or a newbie, sometime sequentially, sometimes because I've been asked
to, sometimes because I've asked. I don't consider it a breach of etiquette.
Though there was once a situaiton where I really, really wanted to a dance
with this one lady and this fellow kept her on the floor for 10+ dances. It
was obvious that she wanted to return to her seat, but he kept pressing her
to stay and dance the next one, and she did. I thought him "rude' but I
wonder how much of that was my own self-interest.
Peter D
> I am of the belief that if one "imagines" that one can be kinder
> and more considerate of the quirks and limitations of one's
> fellow dancers, the world would be a better place in the long
> run.
C.S. Lewis wrote something simliar. He said not to be surprised that we find
people we don not love, but to act lovingly towards that person and then
find ourselves loving them. Some would think it hypocritical, but I think
the point he was making was that when we act in love we start to soften
towards that pesosn and eventually thelove comes with less effort. I thought
I'd share that as you reminded me.
memiki
> memiki wrote:
> >
> > My hurt feelings from refusals are my problem to deal with; and if I so
> > desire, I have the power to control the situation by asking or not
> > asking again, whatever works.
> >
> > That said, the "No's" are not easy to give or to receive.......but they
> > can contribute to one's growth..........particularly if that "one" is
> > not used to being refused anything :)
> >
> > Miki
>
> Bravo, well said!
>
> I have had and still get my share of refusals and I dish my share out
> too. It is our own psyche that makes us feel the way we do when we
> project motivations in others.
>
> Is it really that disappointing to be refused by somebody with poor
> selection criteria?
>
> My .02
>
> Chris Brown
> Camarillo, CA
Chris -- thank you for your "Bravo. . . . ." Methinks it is my first
and one always remembers their "first"......
Miki
memiki
> This is a rather amusing topic. Having been dancing for a few years (mostly
> WCS), I myself have gone through the emotional rollercoaster of rejection,
> though I have gotten to the point of total acceptance of any rejection,
> without any explanation.
Joe -- I cannot imagine anyone refusing to dance with you......dancing
with you is a joy. You are also someone who gives of yourself in the
ballroom.....I have watched your gallant efforts to dance with many
ladies who are not always popular, famous or good dancers -- but
because they are doing more sitting than dancing. You are a very
considerate partner, and your leads make me feel as if I am dancing
with beauty and grace.
Miki
I apologize for snipping your excellent post.....but I wanted to
specifically address just one portion :)
Huck Kennedy
> > indicate that I do not subscribe to the quoted statement
> > about duty plagiarized by Peter D
>
> "duty"? I think you meant "duly".
No, the quote said "duty." It talked about
some imagined duty to ensure everyone else who
comes to a dance gets to dance.
> As for "plagiarized"? Not by me. You're [sic] inability
> to follow a thread renders you even more clueless than
> I first thought.
You misspelled, "CHOMP!!@!!!1!!!!" That hook
stuck in your lip must hurt. :)
Huck
Huck Kennedy
>
> > It's also interesting the way you blame what you
> > yourself put out on the newswires on someone else.
>
> Once again, Huck, I didn't write the words you attributed to me. I'm not
> blaming anyone else for what I siad because -- and here is where your
> cluelessness once again becomes evident -- I didnt' say it. Get it?
But you sent out a posting in which you
represented yourself as having said it. And
on top of that, you blamed your readers for
your mistake instead of yourself for their taking
the words as yours, when it was you yourself who
represented them as such. And your excuse
(paraphrasing): "Never mind what I myself sent
out represented as my own words, you the reader
are to blame because you didn't start reading
the thread from the beginning, or if you did,
you didn't remember who said what so as to get
beyond my careless posting mistakes."
Nice defense. Well, in kindergarten, maybe.
> > You can't see your postings before you send them out?
>
> I can.
Then why did you send one out in which someone
else's quote was being represented as your own (and
not even somewhere way back in the quote sequence,
which would be understandable, but represented as
the words you were saying *right then and there*?
That's your fault and yours alone.
Huck
Mike Corbett
Among the dance community I frequent, "no thank you" is intended as a
polite indication of not now and not later. Please don't ask again.
In public among non dancers it doesn't mean anything much different.
The difference is that you are less likely to see each other again and
there is often more to a request to dance than simply a request to
dance. The reason "no, thank you" is such a good tool, is that it
avoids "excuses" that would lead one to believe asking later might get
a different answer.
In venues where "dancers" go to "dance", it is better advice to give
an actual reason and direct indication that further requests are
likely to be accepted. It is good advice to let "no, thank you" mean
no and don't ask later.
When my wife offers me more food from a dish at dinner and I say "no,
thank you" it means don't offer me more of that during this dinner. If
she offers me something for the first time, and I answer, "no, thank
you" it means I don't want it now OR later. In the event that is NOT
my meaning, I'll serve myself or ask for some the next time it is
prepared. It isn't personal for her UNLESS she is particularly proud
of that particular creation but she understands our tastes are
different and takes no offense.
One need not be offended by a "no, thank you" on the dance floor but I
interpret it as "not now and not later" so I don't ask again until she
asks me.
Mike Corbett
Peter D
Yeah, sure, Huck. You were trolling? The bleat of the clueless caught in
their cluelessness. Let's face it, you wouldn't get a clue if you were stood
in a filee crowded with horny clues at the the height of clue maiting
season, soaked in clue pherenomes and screaming at the top of your voice,
"Can I get a clue?"
Peter D
news:l355k21l1ra0o6hdl...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:46:15 -0500, "Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote:
>
>>I think one thing that might help some is to not tralsate "no, thank you"
>>as
>>"rejection". It's not. "Rejection" is a negative and emotionally-laden
>>word.
>>"No, thank you" is just a simple informing of a deciosn not to
>>participate -- usually at this moment. It's interesting that "No thank
>>you"
>>causes no such emoitional anguish in lots of other situations. I wonder
>>why
>>dancing is so differnet.
>>
>
> Among the dance community I frequent, "no thank you" is intended as a
> polite indication of not now and not later. Please don't ask again.
Oops. There's that "secret language" and "hidden communication" system at
work. Where I come from "No. Thank you" (well, "no, thanks" is probably more
common) means "No" and "Thank you". "No. Not now, and don't ask me again,
OK?" more plainly speaks what you indicated. :-)
> In public among non dancers it doesn't mean anything much different.
> The difference is that you are less likely to see each other again and
> there is often more to a request to dance than simply a request to
> dance. The reason "no, thank you" is such a good tool, is that it
> avoids "excuses" that would lead one to believe asking later might get
> a different answer.
>
> In venues where "dancers" go to "dance", it is better advice to give
> an actual reason and direct indication that further requests are
> likely to be accepted. It is good advice to let "no, thank you" mean
> no and don't ask later.
>
> When my wife offers me more food from a dish at dinner and I say "no,
> thank you" it means don't offer me more of that during this dinner. If
> she offers me something for the first time, and I answer, "no, thank
> you" it means I don't want it now OR later. In the event that is NOT
> my meaning, I'll serve myself or ask for some the next time it is
> prepared. It isn't personal for her UNLESS she is particularly proud
> of that particular creation but she understands our tastes are
> different and takes no offense.
>
> One need not be offended by a "no, thank you" on the dance floor but I
> interpret it as "not now and not later" so I don't ask again until she
> asks me.
A suggestion -- and that's all it is, a suggestion: ask those who have said,
"No. Thank you" if they meant, "Not now. Not later. Don't ask again." I'm
curious what the answer might be.
Peter D
> "Peter D" <please@.sk> writes:
>>
>> > It's also interesting the way you blame what you
>> > yourself put out on the newswires on someone else.
>>
>> Once again, Huck, I didn't write the words you attributed to me. I'm not
>> blaming anyone else for what I siad because -- and here is where your
>> cluelessness once again becomes evident -- I didnt' say it. Get it?
>
> But you sent out a posting in which you
> represented yourself as having said it.
But I didn't. Had you been following the actual thread instead of hunting
for a cyber-leg to hump and an outlet for your sexual urges and childish
ramblings, you would have known that:
(a) Ike said it in the message immediately before my reply. that the ">"s
were missing isn't my problem. Ike needs to stop doing whatever he is doing
that causes such confusions -- it seems to especially bother the clueless
and newbies. The rest seem to get it.
(b) The stated position was the exact opposite of what I have been saying
all through the thread, making it highly unlikely it was I who said it
regardless of any missing ">"s.
Read to compehend. If you can't, take up a remedial english class and see if
that helps. Oh, and keep taking the anti-psychotics. Eventually, they'll
start to work.
No go away or I shall taunt you again.
Huck Kennedy
> >
> >> As for "plagiarized"? Not by me. You're [sic] inability
> >> to follow a thread renders you even more clueless than
> >> I first thought.
> >
> > You misspelled, "CHOMP!!@!!!1!!!!" That hook
> > stuck in your lip must hurt. :)
>
> Yeah, sure, Huck. You were trolling?
Uh, no, I really do think you are a plagiarist
and that you deliberately stole IconoClast's work.
Yeah, right. *guffaw*
> The bleat of the clueless caught in
> their cluelessness. Let's face it, you wouldn't get a clue if you were stood
> in a filee crowded with horny clues at the the height of clue maiting
> season, soaked in clue pherenomes and screaming at the top of your voice,
> "Can I get a clue?"
Keep digging, Peter.
Huck
memiki
Peter -- At a dance event, my "No thank you, I am resting" is the same
as my "No thank you"......both are given when I do not want to dance
with the person that night......it's just the former seems less harsh.
If I say, "No thank you, but ask me later", it means I am not crazy to
dance with the person; but if he does ask me again that night, I will
remember my words and do my best to give him a good dance.
That said, the same words without being prefaced by "No thank you" mean
my not wanting to dance is temporary.
However, nothing is written in stone........some nights at an event I
have the energy to dance with these folks and other times, I do not.
It sounds selfish, and it is selfish. I do my best to be kind where and
when it is possible.
Miki
Mike Corbett
>"Mike Corbett" <xm...@corbettweb.com> wrote in message
>news:l355k21l1ra0o6hdl...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:46:15 -0500, "Peter D" <please@.sk> wrote:
>>
>>>I think one thing that might help some is to not tralsate "no, thank you"
>>>as
>>>"rejection". It's not. "Rejection" is a negative and emotionally-laden
>>>word.
>>>"No, thank you" is just a simple informing of a deciosn not to
>>>participate -- usually at this moment. It's interesting that "No thank
>>>you"
>>>causes no such emoitional anguish in lots of other situations. I wonder
>>>why
>>>dancing is so differnet.
>>>
>>
>> Among the dance community I frequent, "no thank you" is intended as a
>> polite indication of not now and not later. Please don't ask again.
>
>Oops. There's that "secret language" and "hidden communication" system at
>work. Where I come from "No. Thank you" (well, "no, thanks" is probably more
>common) means "No" and "Thank you". "No. Not now, and don't ask me again,
>OK?" more plainly speaks what you indicated. :-)
Of course it does but it is both harsh and overtly unkind. I said "no
thank you" was a polite way to deliver the message.
>
>> In public among non dancers it doesn't mean anything much different.
>> The difference is that you are less likely to see each other again and
>> there is often more to a request to dance than simply a request to
>> dance. The reason "no, thank you" is such a good tool, is that it
>> avoids "excuses" that would lead one to believe asking later might get
>> a different answer.
>>
>> In venues where "dancers" go to "dance", it is better advice to give
>> an actual reason and direct indication that further requests are
>> likely to be accepted. It is good advice to let "no, thank you" mean
>> no and don't ask later.
>>
>> When my wife offers me more food from a dish at dinner and I say "no,
>> thank you" it means don't offer me more of that during this dinner. If
>> she offers me something for the first time, and I answer, "no, thank
>> you" it means I don't want it now OR later. In the event that is NOT
>> my meaning, I'll serve myself or ask for some the next time it is
>> prepared. It isn't personal for her UNLESS she is particularly proud
>> of that particular creation but she understands our tastes are
>> different and takes no offense.
>>
>> One need not be offended by a "no, thank you" on the dance floor but I
>> interpret it as "not now and not later" so I don't ask again until she
>> asks me.
>
>A suggestion -- and that's all it is, a suggestion: ask those who have said,
>"No. Thank you" if they meant, "Not now. Not later. Don't ask again." I'm
>curious what the answer might be.
This ain't my first rodeo, Peter. I've seen Miki's response but she
doesn't directly address what she means when she says ONLY "no. thank
you." without any additional comment.
"No thank you. I'm resting." Is not the same thing as simply "No,
thank you." It implies the answer is likely to be different later or
tomorrow.
Mike
Peter D
> Peter -- At a dance event, my "No thank you, I am resting" is the same
> as my "No thank you"......both are given when I do not want to dance
> with the person that night......it's just the former seems less harsh.
> If I say, "No thank you, but ask me later", it means I am not crazy to
> dance with the person; but if he does ask me again that night, I will
> remember my words and do my best to give him a good dance.
>
> That said, the same words without being prefaced by "No thank you" mean
> my not wanting to dance is temporary.
>
> However, nothing is written in stone........some nights at an event I
> have the energy to dance with these folks and other times, I do not.
>
> It sounds selfish, and it is selfish. I do my best to be kind where and
> when it is possible.
May I make a suggestion -- and it's just a suggestion? WHy not simply speak
plainly, with kindness wherever possible, of course. It seems ot me that so
much miscommunicaiotn occurs even when plain speech is used that to say this
and mean that and hpe the hearer understands the code isn't kind at all.
Consider, if you will, someone who is unware of the code, such as I. If I
asked you to dance (assume I'm a stranger but polite, well-presented, you've
sene me dance and I'm up to your standards, etc.). If you said, "No, thank
you" I'd not take offence and it would be fine to ask again. If you said,
"No thank you, I am resting" I'd not take any offence and when I see you up
and about later I would ask you again. If you said, No thank you, but ask me
later", I'd ask you later making no assumption about your feeling about
dancing with me one way or the other.
Now, the intersting thing is that if you said, "No thank you, I am resting"
and later when I saw you up and about I asked you again, would you judge me
rude for not getting your hidden meaning? If you would, then you would be
unfair because it would not be I who was rude for acting upon exactly what
you said, but you for not saying what you meant plainly. In fact, there is
no kindness in dishonest speech, no matter how well-intentioned. :-)