Capt. Marvel & WoTG
Will G. Austin
I was just thinking. . .Capt. Marvel should be one mixed up puppy.
I mean, he gets his strength and speed from Mercury and Hercules, but he
gains his power from Zeus--a potentially neat tug-of-war here. . .
--
"An apology for the devil:it must be remembered that we have heard one side of
the case. God has written all the books." --Samuel Butler
Will Austin--...@po.cwru.edu--wga%po.cwru.edu@cunyvm
David G. Beals
Why exactly should Captain Marvel be "one mixed up puppy"? Zeus, Hercules,
and Mercury are all Greek gods...
He is confused though, and naturally so, considering that the Roman gods have
enspelled him and are using him as a cheap dupe. Being dumped into Lobo's
lap can't have helped!
I'm going to give the Wart of the Frogs a while to shape up, but like so many
others have said, if it doesn't shape up, I'm going to drop it like a hot
rivet. And no, I DON'T THINK INFINITY GAUNTLET IS BETTER. Anyone who suggests
so crazy. Infinity Gauntlet has all but killed the last remaning vestiges of
quality in _Doctor_Strange_. Somehow, I get the sinking feeling that the Wart
of the Frogs is going to do exactly the same thing to my (previously) fav-
orite D.C. comic, _Dr._Fate_. Funny how Marvel's screw-ups mirror D.C.'s
sometimes...
------------------------------[David G. Beals]--------------------------------
| "How exactly do you bless and heal a stoplight anyway?" _Dr._Fate_ #26 |
| "I'd have bought you a graduation gift, but I'm paying off a bet I made 3 |
| years ago and lost." - C. Sawran, on our high school graduation in 1990 |
-[76256...@Compuserve.Com]----------------------------[dar...@its.rpi.edu]-
David Hafken
>Why exactly should Captain Marvel be "one mixed up puppy"? Zeus, Hercules,
>and Mercury are all Greek gods...
This is incorrect, if we are talking about names. Here is the lowdown:
Greek Name Roman Name
---------- -----------
Zeus Jupiter
Heracles Hercules
Hermes Mercury
I'm not sure if the original poster meant the actual names he used, but if
he did then (given the fact that in the DC Universe the roman + greek gods
are physically different people) this definitely poses a problem for Capt.
Marvel. Incidentally, perhaps I'm wrong but I remember reading in
Previews for Sept. that said, in the description for WotG#4, something
about finding out some secret about Capt. Marvel. Is this right? If it
is, then perhaps the above has something to do with it.
Well, since _I_ won't be spending another penny on WotG (and I urge everyone
else to do the same!) I'm sure I'll hear about it on the net.
By the way, can someone tell me who did those special insert posters in WotG#1;
I thought they were awful -- all the characters' faces look like little kids!
Yeah, I guess that was really worth having cheapo paper for the rest of the
book!
Dave
Melinda J. Klump
1) I see no reason for what's going on -- no explanation. Apparantly, the
greek Gods are battling the roman Gods, and there is some other God who plans
to dethrone them all. WHY??
::::The gods of various panthenons are going to take earth back.
***********************************
2) Secondly, being a fan of mythology, I really don't like the idea of having
the greek + roman gods being different WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION. NOTE: I
think the idea could have been great, but with no explanation, I see no
reason why
not to believe what I've always believed -- that the greek + roman gods are
the same, just with different names.
:::::The reason that there isnt an explanation is called SUSPENSE and a
future FLASHBACK. It's called literary style you nit. I think that it
is very interesting that they are doing this. And the gods were not the
same. The personalities and looks of the Greek and Roman gods were as
different as night and day (in ancient times). This is also a chance to
explain the presence of Shazam, Captain Marvel and Son of Vulcan as
Roman god beneficieries. And why Artemis never mentioned the similarity
of her Roman name to Diana (Wonder Woman). Notice Zeus's face at the
mention of Shazam's name. He knew that he was contributing power to
Shazam, but I bet he
didn't know that Shazam went to his rival panthenon(s) to get the rest
of them. Kinda makes you wonder about Shazam's motives, eh? Now it
wouild be really interesting to see Solomon.
************************
3) Third, the (in my opinion) extremely pained attempt to set up all the
crossovers in this issue was confusing and lame. Again, except for maybe
Wonder Woman, I saw no reason to link any of the other superheros into the
story, as of yet.
::::::You have to be intimately following a lot of books over a long
time. One thing about anything Perez does, he won't endlessly repeat
"my power does this, i hate this person becasue of that." No lowering
of standards here. If you don't like DC as a whole, don't collect a lot
of books, then don't by WOTG. I think it's great and long overdue.
That seems to be the way that DC is setting up all of the crossovers lately.
A2001 is such that too. The last time they did the main storyline in the
series itself (Millenium) with the important things happening there, it failed
miserably. Invasion and A2001 merely set up the framework for the story to
happen
**************
4) The art, in my opinion, was disappointing. Perhaps the quality of the
paper that was used for the book is factoring in here (inferior to IG).
::::::George didn't do all (actually most) of the art. His style is
stll there, thank the Gods. Why anyone thinks anyone else is better
than he at pencilling is beyond me.
*********
Well, anybody wish to explain why they like the book?
:::::::::yep.
*****
Dave
::::
michael j pastor iii
guest on melinda's account
David G. Beals
>In article <sg0l=+b...@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>
>>Why exactly should Captain Marvel be "one mixed up puppy"? Zeus, Hercules,
>>and Mercury are all Greek gods...
>
>This is incorrect, if we are talking about names. Here is the lowdown:
>
>Greek Name Roman Name
>---------- -----------
>Zeus Jupiter
>Heracles Hercules
>Hermes Mercury
>
>I'm not sure if the original poster meant the actual names he used, but if
>he did then (given the fact that in the DC Universe the roman + greek gods
>are physically different people) this definitely poses a problem for Capt.
>Marvel. Incidentally, perhaps I'm wrong but I remember reading in
On further research, I find that you're 50% right (or are you 50% wrong?
depends on if I'm more pessimistic or optomistic I suppose :-) ). Mercury
is indeed the exclusive Roman name for this character... BUT Hercules is
used in both the Greek and Roman pantheons. To quote Webster's New World
Dictionary:
Her-cu-les: 1. Gr. & Rom. Myth. the son of Zeus and Alcmene, renowned for
^^^ ^^^^
feats of strength blah blah blah etc. ad nauseum...
This presents an interesting question... are we looking at a stupid cont-
inuity error on D.C.'s part now that they've chosen to do this ridiculous
"Greek and Roman gods are not identical" storyline? No sooner had Capt.
Marvel's origin been cleaned up by Crisis then D.C. went to work fouling it
up again. *mega-sigh of discontent*
>By the way, can someone tell me who did those special insert posters in WotG#1;
>I thought they were awful -- all the characters' faces look like little kids!
>Yeah, I guess that was really worth having cheapo paper for the rest of the
>book!
>
>Dave
I don't know who did them, but I'm offended that they used such a worthless
and obvious ploy to jack up the cost of the book. Remember folks: War of the
Gods is so much like Infinity Gauntlet that the difference is hardly worth
mentioning!
Just another theatre geek.....
>In article <46...@netnews.upenn.edu> haf...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (David Hafken) writes:
>>In article <sg0l=+b...@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>This presents an interesting question... are we looking at a stupid cont-
>inuity error on D.C.'s part now that they've chosen to do this ridiculous
>"Greek and Roman gods are not identical" storyline?
Stupid to you, perhaps....but apparently not to anyone who's done
the homework on Greek and Roman mythology (apparently it's a gross over-
simplication to equate the two pantheons, according to some comic pros).
Now if you want to argue it's being HANDLED stupidly.....
--
-----
Roger Tang, gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu
Middle-class weenie, art nerd and all-around evil nasty spermchucker
Melinda J. Klump
Why exactly should Captain Marvel be "one mixed up puppy"? Zeus, Hercules,
and Mercury are all Greek gods...
no they're not: Cpt. Marvel gets his powers from these gods:
S- solomon
H- hercules (or is it heracles? i assume not)
A- atlas
z- zeus
A - achilles
M mercury
only zeus, achilles and atlas are greek
mercury and hercules are roman
solomon is judeo-christian
shazam the wizard has a lot of explaining to do
David G. Beals
>>>In article <sg0l=+b...@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>>This presents an interesting question... are we looking at a stupid cont-
>>inuity error on D.C.'s part now that they've chosen to do this ridiculous
>>"Greek and Roman gods are not identical" storyline?
>
> Stupid to you, perhaps....but apparently not to anyone who's done
>the homework on Greek and Roman mythology (apparently it's a gross over-
>simplication to equate the two pantheons, according to some comic pros).
>
> Now if you want to argue it's being HANDLED stupidly.....
>
If you look at what I wrote, I said that the CONTINUITY ERROR was stupid,
and that the "Greek and Roman are not identical" storyline was ridiculous.
What's the difference you say? Well since you seem to be picking nits anyhow:
1> War of the Gods as a concept is ridiclous. It's just a bunch of dieties
battering each other and the earth in an ill-conceived crossover series
to generate more cash for D.C. The fact that I refer to the concept of
the Roman and Greek gods as being ridiculous is based on >THE COMIC'S
CONTINUITY<, not classical Greek studies. If you want to have a philo-
sophical debate about classical Greco-Roman studies, take it to a USENET
group that's dedicated to that idea. All I'm saying is that all of a
sudden the D.C. universe seems to have contradicted itself and made an
unpleasant, unreadable crossover mess with so-so art.
2> As for Captain Marvel's affiliation with Judeo-Christian, Roman, and
Greek gods, that would not have been a problem had D.C. not made the
conditions I discussed above come about. Now it seems like Captain
Marvel should be a schitzophrenic Jehova's witness! Is it "stupid" to
take a character who's origin and continuity have just been sorted out
and foul it up by saying that the previously established source of his
power is now really a bunch of different gods at war who wouldn't give
the time of day to each other, let alone cooperate to make this char-
acter possible? Damn straight it is!
3> This is in case anyone did not see my last post: HERCULES IS GREEK. Yes,
he is also mentioned in the Roman pantheon, but he IS Greek, as he is the
Son of Zeus. Look it up, I already have, and stop flaming me for it. I
was wrong about Mercury though, which still presents the currented cont-
inuity error with Captain Marvel. Solomon may be a Judeo-Christian figure,
but at least he isn't "on anyone's side" in the current conflict between
the gods, so he doesn't really pose as grave a continuity error.
I am really dissatisfied with all the summer crossover attempts. They leave
me going to the back issues bins to wait out the current mediocrity I've
been seeing, and await _Hellblazer #45_ for a breath of fresh air from all of
this!
Mark Joseph Bylander
Why don't you check the etymology of the words? Hercules is Latin, derived
from the Greek Herakles (that's rough breathing Eta, rho, alpha, kappa,
lambda, eta, sigma). I.e. When the Romans took over much of Greek culture,
they had to have an equivalent of Heracles, son of Zeus and Alcmene, so
they created Hercules, son of Jupiter (derived from Zeus pater) and
Alcmene (possibly Alcmena, don't have sufficient references here to say,
but Alcmena would be easier to decline.)
Mark Bylander
Paul Pereira
>3> This is in case anyone did not see my last post: HERCULES IS GREEK. Yes,
> he is also mentioned in the Roman pantheon, but he IS Greek, as he is the
> Son of Zeus. Look it up, I already have, and stop flaming me for it. I
> was wrong about Mercury though, which still presents the currented cont-
> inuity error with Captain Marvel. Solomon may be a Judeo-Christian figure,
> but at least he isn't "on anyone's side" in the current conflict between
> the gods, so he doesn't really pose as grave a continuity error.
I've noticed at least a couple people talk about Solomon as if he were
a 'god' like the other characters that make up 'hazam'. I don't believe
this is so. To my knowledge, Solomon is a king mentioned in Judeo-
Christian stories. And, unlike the other characters, he is an historical
figure -- that is, he's a real guy. Wise Old King Solomon was actually
the head of the Israeli state a while back.
Actually, I can't imagine the guy interacting with this bunch of Greeks
and Romans, considering how monotheistic he was. HEY ... now THERE'S
a nice sub-plot idea for WotG! Solomon having to deal with the fact that
(in the DC world, at least), other gods DO exist besides his One God.
Yeah, right ... they probably won't even mention the guy. We wouldn't
want the story to actually be INTERESTING now, would we?
David Hafken
>
>On further research, I find that you're 50% right (or are you 50% wrong?
>depends on if I'm more pessimistic or optomistic I suppose :-) ). Mercury
>is indeed the exclusive Roman name for this character... BUT Hercules is
>used in both the Greek and Roman pantheons. To quote Webster's New World
>Dictionary:
>
>Her-cu-les: 1. Gr. & Rom. Myth. the son of Zeus and Alcmene, renowned for
> ^^^ ^^^^
>feats of strength blah blah blah etc. ad nauseum...
I'm not too sure that your source is correct. I took a mythology class
about a year and a half ago, and we learned that Heracles is the greek name
and Hercules is the Roman name. Besides, in all the stuff we read (it was
a GREEK mythology class) he was always referred to as Heracles. WotG is
using both names as well. So, to get back to Capt. Marvel, this is indeed a
little more interesting if his powers come from both the Greek and the Roman
gods (who, in the DC universe are different beings).
Dave
David G. Beals
Captain Marvel, instead of fighting with Lobo, has an intense philosophical
debate with him. Both Lobo and Capt. Marvel come to the conclusion that his
powers are actually drawn from Saddam Hussein, Herman Munster, Arnold
Schwatzernegger, Ziggy Marley, Albert Einstein, and Moe. This leads Capt.
Marvel to go on a quest for his two missing patrons, Larry and Curly. Later
on, after fighing a bunch of useless, ill-drawn monsters in implausible
crossovers, Capt. Marvel finds Larry and Curly with Wonder Woman, poking each
other's eyes with their fingers and mumbling the holy words "nyuk nyuk" over
and over again. This causes the Greek and Roman gods to laugh so hard that
they have a coronary and die. Capt. Marvel's powers are revamped, and to
trigger his abilities, he now shouts "Schlazam!" Among C.M.'s new powers are
the ability to make people laugh (usually at him), and the ability to call
upon the Wisdom of Shemp when needed.
Wonder Woman becomes disgusted with all this, and switches over to the Norse
pantheon to gain her powers. Her new costume becomes a fur-lined halter top
with mittons, and she trades her lasso in for a harpoon that compels people
to tell the truth while skewered on it.
====>I dunno, am I reaching? }:-)
Stay tuned for "the suggested ending for Infinity Gauntlet, and what Thanos
can do with that bloody glove of his!"
Abhijit Khale
Not wishing to get involved in a good flame war, but ...
In article <+w!m11#@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>
>> That is why Wonder Woman is so true to its Greek
>>mythological heritage, with modern explanantions for some
>>inconsistancies.
>
>Pity she's slated to be killed/removed from circulation in the War of the
>Gods, isn't it?
WHAT !!!. This is the first I've ever heard this. DC is going to kill off a
50 year old character ??? Also, shes their only female character with a book
of her own, right ?
Or is it just her book thats being killed off ? I hadnt heard that either,
but I dont read WW.
Abhijit
PS : For my money, I was glad to see the return of the Big Red Cheese
in WOTG, regardless of all other issues. hes been in limbo for
too long. DC owns two Golden Age greats ( Shazam and Plastic Man)
whom they should make more use of.
David G. Beals
>dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>
>
>>can do with that bloody glove of his!"
>
>
>--
>= Marty Ward, E-mail: 860...@aucs.AcadiaU.ca, ...!cs.dal.ca!aucs!860099w
>= JOE SATRIANI! ALAN MOORE! JRR TOLKIEN! AYN RAND! EIGHTBALL! YUMMY FUR! TALES = OF THE BEANWORLD! MOONSHADOW! KITCHEN SINK COMICS! UNIX! VI RULES! GNU! C!
>= ALBERT EINSTEIN! JIMI HENDRIX! WILL EISNER! CEREBUS RULES! MARVEL SUCKS! = PETE TOWNSEND! OSCAR WILDE! APPLE II! WHAT?! BLUES GUITAR! RORSCHACH LIVES! = QUANTUM LEAP! STANLEY KUBRICK! BLUES BROTHERS! TALL RAVEN-HAIRED WOMEN!
>= ... because after reading CEREBUS, everything else is just comics.
Well since you asked:
Thanos, discovering that having the universe at his beck and call is boring,
decides to complete his education. So, Thanos goes back to Titan to complete
his true vocation:
Thanos the proctologist
Using the Infinity Gauntlet during examinations, Thanos quickly rises to
the top of his profession, and defeats the Silver Surfer with the dreaded
Enema of Death. Finally, Thanos ascends to the position of Surgeon General
Supreme, and starts a practice with such luminaries as Dr. Strange and
Dr. Druid.
In the course of all this, Thanos forgets completely about the half of the
universe he killed, and lets them stay dead. Comic readers everywhere beg
him to finish off the other half.
**Apologies to Marvel fans so that I don't get caught in a flame war. :)
David G. Beals
>
>Not wishing to get involved in a good flame war, but ...
>
>In article <+w!m11#@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>>
>>> That is why Wonder Woman is so true to its Greek
>>>mythological heritage, with modern explanantions for some
>>>inconsistancies.
>>
>>Pity she's slated to be killed/removed from circulation in the War of the
>>Gods, isn't it?
>
>WHAT !!!. This is the first I've ever heard this. DC is going to kill off a
>50 year old character ??? Also, shes their only female character with a book
>of her own, right ?
>
>Or is it just her book thats being killed off ? I hadnt heard that either,
>but I dont read WW.
Okay, I have heard (emphasis on HEARD) that due to poor sales, Wonder Woman
is losing her own title. I have also HEARD that this is going to be done by
killing her in the War of the Gods. I may be wrong, but I've heard it from
a couple of sources.
>
>Abhijit
>
>PS : For my money, I was glad to see the return of the Big Red Cheese
>in WOTG, regardless of all other issues. hes been in limbo for
>too long. DC owns two Golden Age greats ( Shazam and Plastic Man)
>whom they should make more use of.
You have a point. Sometimes, like fine wine, the best heroes are the oldest
ones. :-)
Antonio Romero
>In article <6y0...@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>I've noticed at least a couple people talk about Solomon as if he were
>a 'god' like the other characters that make up 'hazam'. I don't believe
>this is so. To my knowledge, Solomon is a king mentioned in Judeo-
>Christian stories.
...and Herakles/Hercules/whoever and Achilles aren't Gods either... so
who's left?
-Antonio Romero rom...@arisia.xerox.com
David Hafken
>David Beals idiotically blathers:
>This presents an interesting question... are we looking at a stupid cont-
>inuity error on D.C.'s part now that they've chosen to do this ridiculous
>"Greek and Roman gods are not identical" storyline? No sooner had Capt.
>Marvel's origin been cleaned up by Crisis then D.C. went to work fouling it
>up again. *mega-sigh of discontent*
FIRST of all, is it really necessary to reduce an attempted intelligent
discussion into name-calling and flame throwing? Was it really necessary for
you to use the phrase "idiotically blathers?" This only encourages more
of the same; why throw the stone you know will start a war?
Let's try to keep our discussions a little more mature (or we'll end up like
that EXTREMELY STUPID AND ANNOYING thread concerning the whining and sniffling
likes of "I never said that.." ...
SECOND of all, your attack on his comments are incorrect (as has been
previously discussed) -- he is not calling the fact that the Greek + Roman gods
are not identical stupid, he is calling the apparant continuity errors this
story has caused stupid (reread the above quoted paragraph!).
>merely reflect popular culture's language. Check an encyclopedia for a
>more correct derivation. Hercules is the POPULAR PRONUNCIATION of our
>society today of Heracles. I didn't know about Heracles as the original
>name until high school.
THIRD of all, I personally call the god Heracles, since that was what he was
called in the Greek myths. Just because American popular culture uses the
roman name doesn't mean someone who really knows otherwise has to. Do you
say "Hailey's Comet" for Halley's comet?
>David idiotically blathers again:
(!!!!!)
>Mark Bylander saves the day with an intelligent observation:
>
>I wonder why the Romans weren't at Morpheus' palace during the Season of
>Mists--the Greeks had withdrawn from the world, but where were the Romans???
>
>I bet its because they were getting ready for this event, or something
>along these lines.
FOURTH of all (and finally), this is not a flame, but I would suspect that you
either don't read Sandman or haven't read a lot of Sandman, because if you did,
you would probably know that Gaiman does not participate in x-overs with the
rest of the super-hero laden DC universe. He does this because he doesn't
want other people to ruin his characters (which I'm sure they would!) I
have immmense respect for this. So, you would certainly lose your bet. :)
But Mark does bring up a very interesting point, one which we should probably
speculate further on. New thread, anyone?
Dave
Derryl D. DePriest
We haven't heard Captain Marvel's side of the story yet. Sure, he may sport a
nifty acronym for a monicker, but in reality his powers may be *modeled* after
those gods and mortals, not derived from them. Did the Old Wizard
ever say otherwise (where's my copy of Famous First Editions Whiz #1
when I need it?) We may yet hear why he has *chosen* to fight alongside the
Roman gods (if he does; I think that he'll come to question his involvement
shortly).
As michael pastor pointed out, the "continuity" problem is not DC's fault;
they acquired the character the way he is. Blame Fawcett, but don't blame
DC *yet*, since they may reconcile the dilemma. I think that the idea
of two pantheons is fine, since I suspended my disbelief that one pantheon
existed already! The story has great potential, especially if other pantheons
are brought in. If only the Norse gods (well, the pocket Norse gods!)
would forget about Ragnarok for a while...(see below).
David Beals writes:
>Okay, I have heard (emphasis on HEARD) that due to poor sales, Wonder Woman
>is losing her own title. I have also HEARD that this is going to be done by
>killing her in the War of the Gods. I may be wrong, but I've heard it from
>a couple of sources.
David, a word of advice: cite your sources for information such as this.
Your orignal post made it out to be a *fact* she was either going to
be killed or lose her book. If your "source(s)" is a friend of a friend,
it's generally questionable.
And there are easier much easier, gentler ways to end a title than by
killing the lead character! :')
>Abhijit writes:
>>PS : For my money, I was glad to see the return of the Big Red Cheese
>>in WOTG, regardless of all other issues. hes been in limbo for
>>too long. DC owns two Golden Age greats ( Shazam and Plastic Man)
>>whom they should make more use of.
Agreed...the whole JSA is in limbo and has been for too long.
___________________________ ___ _____________________________
\ Derryl D. DePriest \ |\__\___ \ d...@cvs.rochester.edu \
\Center for Visual Science \ || |\__\___ \ \
\ & \ || D|| |\__\ \ \
\Neuroscience Grad. Program\ \|__|| D|| \ \ \
\ University of Rochester \ \|__|| D | \ Lab: 716 275-8669 \
\__________________________\ \|__/ \____________________________\
Andrew David Weiland
>a 'god' like the other characters that make up 'hazam'. I don't believe
>this is so. To my knowledge, Solomon is a king mentioned in Judeo-
>Christian stories. And, unlike the other characters, he is an historical
>figure -- that is, he's a real guy. Wise Old King Solomon was actually
>the head of the Israeli state a while back.
>
Yep, Solomon was a historical figure. The book of Kings describes
Solomon's reign, and recent Archeological findings back it up (including
the remains of the first temple).
>
>Actually, I can't imagine the guy interacting with this bunch of Greeks
>and Romans, considering how monotheistic he was. HEY ... now >THERE'S
a nice sub-plot idea for WotG! Solomon having to deal with >the fact
that (in the DC world, at least), other gods DO exist besides his >One
God. Yeah, right ... they probably won't even mention the guy. We
>wouldn't want the story to actually be INTERESTING now, would we?
Then again, Solomon did "turn away from the one God" before his death.
That is, he kept the temple to YHVH running but set up a number of
shrines for the gods worshipped by his wives (many daughters of foreign
cheiftans). This probably didn't seem so bad at the time, since the
Book of Kings shows that most of Israel did not regard YHVH as the "one
God". But to the priests of YHVH seemed to regard this as nothing less
than apostacy.
Maybe the "origin of Shazam" will reveal why Solomon turned to
polytheism in his old age. Of course, there is the slight problem of
introducing Solomon to the Greek and Roman gods.
Suffice to say, it's probably too "interesting" for DC's tastes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Andrew D. M. U. Weiland | aw...@andrew.cmu.edu |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| "I for one am glad we're not all alike, because then |
| we'd all like the same things and there wouldn't be |
| enough haggis to go around" |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Ward
>Stay tuned for "the suggested ending for Infinity Gauntlet, and what Thanos
>can do with that bloody glove of his!"
Yes! Yes! Give us more!
Melinda J. Klump
This presents an interesting question... are we looking at a stupid cont-
inuity error on D.C.'s part now that they've chosen to do this ridiculous
"Greek and Roman gods are not identical" storyline? No sooner had Capt.
Marvel's origin been cleaned up by Crisis then D.C. went to work fouling it
up again. *mega-sigh of discontent*
Ridiculous is your opinion: it sure makes sense to have them seperate
considering HISTORICALLY they WERE different. DOes it make more sense
that Marvel has a panthenon with both and neither of the Roman and Greek
names? Or that the Eternals were actually those gods for a while?
George Perez knows more about Graeco-Roman culture than you do
obviously. That is why Wonder Woman is so true to its Greek
mythological heritage, with modern explanantions for some
inconsistancies. Captain Marvel's origin has NEVER been cleaned up,
regardless of crisis. Why the wizard SHAZAM took some roman names,
greek names and judeo-christian mortals names has never been explained,
nor even attempted. (Besides bad writing 50 odd years ago by the
original creator of Cap, which was not originally a DC character)
Captain Marvel is also not the only character to derive powers from the
roman gods (i.e. Son of Vulcan) and to say that Son got his powers from
the same people that gave them to Wonder Woman is ridiculous. So Son of
Vulcan had to have gotten his powers from someone. There is NO
continuity error, continuity contridiction, or anything wrong with
various panthenons battling it out except in YOUR head. And dictionaries
merely reflect popular culture's language. Check an encyclopedia for a
more correct derivation. Hercules is the POPULAR PRONUNCIATION of our
society today of Heracles. I didn't know about Heracles as the original
name until high school.
David idiotically blathers again:
Is it "stupid" to
take a character who's origin and continuity have just been sorted out
and foul it up by saying that the previously established source of his
power is now really a bunch of different gods at war who wouldn't give
the time of day to each other, let alone cooperate to make this char-
acter possible? Damn straight it is!
Damn straight its not! Those gods didn't know that they were creating
the same character obviously by the look of Zeus' face when Billy said
Shazam! (whose name he recognized from milennia ago). Shazam has
obvioulsy been doing some underhanded things with these godly gifts.
The gods had nothing to do with his DIRECT creation of Captain Marvel.
Remenber Black Adam? (I wonder if he is returning here?) He got his
name from Sumerian and Egyptian gods.
Mark Bylander saves the day with an intelligent observation:
I wonder why the Romans weren't at Morpheus' palace during the Season of
Mists--the Greeks had withdrawn from the world, but where were the Romans???
I bet its because they were getting ready for this event, or something
along these lines.
Paul Pereira observes an OLD continiuty glitch dating back to the
creation of the character:
I've noticed at least a couple people talk about Solomon as if he were
a 'god' like the other characters that make up 'hazam'. I don't believe
this is so. To my knowledge, Solomon is a king mentioned in Judeo-
Christian stories. And, unlike the other characters, he is an historical
figure -- that is, he's a real guy. Wise Old King Solomon was actually
the head of the Israeli state a while back.
That has been talked about before in fandom, and I think its gonna get
cleared up here as the motivations of Shazam are unfolded. My theory is
that his wisdom is godlike, and the fact that he is now a spirit allows
him to lend it out.
Pajunen, Hannu
> Okay, I have heard (emphasis on HEARD) that due to poor sales, Wonder Woman
> is losing her own title. I have also HEARD that this is going to be done by
> killing her in the War of the Gods. I may be wrong, but I've heard it from
> a couple of sources.
Maybe she also turns out to become the Monarch, and is killed to prevent that.
Just a thought...
Hannu
Dani Zweig
>Solomon may be a Judeo-Christian figure...
Referring to Solomon as "Judeo-Christian" makes as much sense as referring
to Hercules as "Greco-American."
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine -- Edmund Spenser
Dunstan MacRorie
In article <+w!m11#@rpi.edu> dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals) writes:
>
>> That is why Wonder Woman is so true to its Greek
>>mythological heritage, with modern explanantions for some
>>inconsistancies.
>
>Pity she's slated to be killed/removed from circulation in the War of the
>Gods, isn't it?
I'll be greatly dissappointed if this turns out to be true. While recent issues
of Wonder Woman have not been as good as they were when this run first started,
I feel it's still been one of DC's best "superhero" titles. It will be a
shame to see it go.
-Dunstan
--
"I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings."
-- Tom Petty
David G. Beals
>David Beals idiotically blathers:
I may "idiotically blather", but at least I have some manners.
>This presents an interesting question... are we looking at a stupid cont-
>inuity error on D.C.'s part now that they've chosen to do this ridiculous
>"Greek and Roman gods are not identical" storyline? No sooner had Capt.
>Marvel's origin been cleaned up by Crisis then D.C. went to work fouling it
>up again. *mega-sigh of discontent*
>
>
>Ridiculous is your opinion: it sure makes sense to have them seperate
>considering HISTORICALLY they WERE different. DOes it make more sense
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Historically from the "real world" timeline you and I live in (or do you
live in it? just a thought... ). D.C.'s continuity is a thing unto itself,
and everything I have seen before the War of the Gods says that these two
pantheons were based on the same entities. THAT'S what makes it ridiculous.
The fact that the Gods mentioned in Shazam's name/invocation were all of a
similar origin, seemed to cement the theory that >IN THE D.C. CONTINUITY<
these gods were the same. Now, they're ripping this theory apart and going
in a new direction, which virtually invalidates Captain Marvel's premise.
No matter what the "secret" about him is, Captain Marvel will now be a less
plausible character as a result, wrecking a great deal of work that's been
done to fix his origin. That's also ridiculous. You're welcome to disagree,
but to tell the truth, I just get the impression that you just want to argue.
I don't. I'm here to discuss comics, not Greco-Roman history.
>that Marvel has a panthenon with both and neither of the Roman and Greek
>names? Or that the Eternals were actually those gods for a while?
Why drag Marvel into this? Yes, they're consistant. They're also boring.
Infinity Gauntlet proves that they aren't doing much better, either. Odin's
"ceremonial eyepatch of sorrow" for instance was a glaring fault in their
continuity. How did this get brought up anyhow? I thought we were discussing
D.C.!
>George Perez knows more about Graeco-Roman culture than you do
>obviously. That is why Wonder Woman is so true to its Greek
>mythological heritage, with modern explanantions for some
>inconsistancies.
Pity she's slated to be killed/removed from circulation in the War of the
Gods, isn't it?
[assorted bitter attacks on the idea of Captain Marvel altogether, deleted]
>Captain Marvel is also not the only character to derive powers from the
>roman gods (i.e. Son of Vulcan) and to say that Son got his powers from
>the same people that gave them to Wonder Woman is ridiculous. So Son of
>Vulcan had to have gotten his powers from someone. There is NO
>continuity error, continuity contridiction, or anything wrong with
>various panthenons battling it out except in YOUR head. And dictionaries
^^^^^^^^^^
>merely reflect popular culture's language.
a) Get out of my head, there's only room for one in here, and you're clearly
out of yours.
b) So there's no continuity problem, eh? Well then, I guess that would turn
Solomon into a Grecian/Roman immigrant who's suddenly turned into one of
the gods, eh? Yeah, that makes sense... not.
c) Last time I checked, comics were written in "our culture's popular lan-
guage, not in classical Greek.
>more correct derivation. Hercules is the POPULAR PRONUNCIATION of our
>society today of Heracles. I didn't know about Heracles as the original
>name until high school.
Alright, alright! I'm so sick of all this! It's brilliant! War of the Gods
is brilliant! Buy it! Praise be to Perez! The art's a delight! The writing
is impecable! No continuity errors! "A delight to the senses!" proclaim
Siskel & Ebert!
Sheesh, at this point I'll even take the blame for Infinity Gauntlet,
X-Force #1, and the new Dr. Fate if it'll get people off my back!
>
>David idiotically blathers again:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And I'll bet my dog walks funny, too.
>Is it "stupid" to
> take a character who's origin and continuity have just been sorted out
> and foul it up by saying that the previously established source of his
>power is now really a bunch of different gods at war who wouldn't give
> the time of day to each other, let alone cooperate to make this char-
> acter possible? Damn straight it is!
>
>Damn straight its not! Those gods didn't know that they were creating
>the same character obviously by the look of Zeus' face when Billy said
>Shazam! (whose name he recognized from milennia ago).
Oh I see! Zeus' power is out for loan like a book at the free library! Get
a bloody clue! Zeus would take a very personal interest in anything he in-
vested his power in! My guess is that Zeus looked shocked because Billy/
Capt. Marvel had been forced to go along with the Roman gods against his free
will, cutting off another of Zeus' resources. (And don't run on at the mouth
about how we don't know anything about Capt. M. being controlled by the
Roman gods... even Wonder Woman said he sure wasn't acting like himself, and
he never uttered a word until the lasso was used on him)
>Shazam has
>obvioulsy been doing some underhanded things with these godly gifts.
A twelve year-old kid has been taking advantage of the gods? I'd hate to see
you writing this story...
>The gods had nothing to do with his DIRECT creation of Captain Marvel.
>Remenber Black Adam? (I wonder if he is returning here?) He got his
>name from Sumerian and Egyptian gods.
Which proves nothing, and is as relevant as the price of tea in China.
>
>Mark Bylander saves the day with an intelligent observation:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some days you just can't win...
>
>I wonder why the Romans weren't at Morpheus' palace during the Season of
>Mists--the Greeks had withdrawn from the world, but where were the Romans???
>
>I bet its because they were getting ready for this event, or something
>along these lines.
Neil Gaiman doesn't like to tie his characters in with the D.C. continuity.
I think he had other plans in mind, totally unrelated with WoTG. Hell,
maybe he heard about what was coming and thought it a good idea to limit
his liability and not involve the Greeks rather than open himself up to abuse
about the D.C. continuity.
I can see his point after all of this.
>Paul Pereira observes an OLD continiuty glitch dating back to the
>creation of the character:
>
>I've noticed at least a couple people talk about Solomon as if he were
>a 'god' like the other characters that make up 'hazam'. I don't believe
>this is so. To my knowledge, Solomon is a king mentioned in Judeo-
>Christian stories. And, unlike the other characters, he is an historical
>figure -- that is, he's a real guy. Wise Old King Solomon was actually
>the head of the Israeli state a while back.
>
>That has been talked about before in fandom, and I think its gonna get
>cleared up here as the motivations of Shazam are unfolded. My theory is
>that his wisdom is godlike, and the fact that he is now a spirit allows
>him to lend it out.
Okay, let's >for the purposes of discussion< assume Solomon's wisdom is so
godlike that he can loan it out. What the heck does that have to do with
the Grecian and Roman pantheons? This still leaves a glaring continuity
fault *yes, there is a continuity fault Virginia*! This would seem to in-
dicate that Capt. M. draws his power from THREE PANTHEONS! ONE OF WHICH IS
A MONOTHEISTIC RELIGION! This doesn't wash, no matter how much abuse you heap
on me!
>michael j pastor iii
>guest on melinda's account
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Guests like this I can do without.
James Davis Nicoll
The impression I got in high school from the mythology course was that
while if you looked closely at gods like Jupiter & co., you would indeed find
scruffing where the Greek gods' original serial numbers were scraped off to
make space for the roman registry, the Romans added more gods to their
pantheon than the Greeks did (Weren't some of the Emperors declared to
be gods after they die? Imagine: Wonder Woman vs Caligula- ho'od win?
More to the point, who would get Vanessa?). Perhaps someone who, unlike myself,
actually knows what they are talking about could expand on the differences
between the Greek and Roman gods.
Hmmm. Maybe Sol was pressed into Roman service while the Romans
(and their gods) controlled the Middle East.
James Nicoll
Michael Cohen
>In article <17...@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> kh...@dawnstar.Eng.Sun.COM (Abhijit Khale) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Pity she's slated to be killed/removed from circulation in the War of the
>>>Gods, isn't it?
>>
>>WHAT !!!. This is the first I've ever heard this. DC is going to kill off a
Spoilers for future issues of WOTG ahead...
I mean it...
Wonder Woman will be killed in issue 3 of the series.
And there will be a funeral for her in the next issue of WW following.
However, in the Demon cross-over during that month, strange things
are slated to happen to her spirit before she goes to a final resting
place.
So, it is entirely probable that she will return to the world of the
living real soon after WOTG 3.
Also, (and this is something unconfirmed), I have heard that William
Messner-Loebs (sp?) will take over the writing on Wonder Woman real
soon now.
My information comes from the October 1991 Westfield Newsletter. Your milage
may vary.
Michael Cohen
sl26...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
or, for an account that will exist after the next three weeks...
mco...@jarthur.claremont.edu
Patrick McClue
Heracles became a god after his "mortal death" (I believe) and Achilles is a
demi-god...I think that counts. :-)
Patrick
Patrick McClue
[deleted stuff]
>... The story has great potential, especially if other pantheons
>are brought in. If only the Norse gods (well, the pocket Norse gods!)
>would forget about Ragnarok for a while...(see below).
I think they will be...from the little I've heard, Ice (Maiden) of the JL is
to play a role in this somehow and she is supposed to be a Norse goddess
(is that correct?).
On the side:
In one scene, Power Girl gets a feeling that she must go to Atlantis...I do
hope that at the end of this, she would be healed (mystically) and she would
be the good old Kara that I loved in the past (with kryptonian/daxamite powers
:-) )
Patrick
James Drew
>Well, since _I_ won't be spending another penny on WotG
Your decision, naturally. Me, I enjoyed #1, and have been following things
in Wonder Woman for months, so I want to see how it turns out. (Mind you, I
won't be buying any crossovers which I wouldn't normally get anyway.)
>By the way, can someone tell me who did those special insert posters
Chris Sprouse, inked by Perez. (I agree that they weren't especially great,
and didn't really add anything to the book.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| "When I first came out to New York," I told
Jim Drew | Amber, "before I decided to re-open my own
j...@frame.com | agency, Bryce Wine interviewed me for a head of
(Furry: Randy Puritan) | security position at Wine Industries. He tried
(SCA: Colyn-Michel du Mont | to make me believe he was a porpoise, trapped in
St. Michel) | a net, but he came across more like a shark
{opinions: mine != frame's} | preparing for a feeding frenzy. I decided that
"Innocent, but not naive." | I had little desire to become part of his food
| chain of command."
| - Marc Lynx, "A Conventional Death"
James Drew
>3> This is in case anyone did not see my last post: HERCULES IS GREEK.
>Look it up, I already have
Unfortunately, both you and your source (Webster's New World Dictionary) are
wrong. Heracles is the Greek name for the legendary hero, while Hercules
was the Roman name. (Check out a better source on mythology than a dictionary
for more information; try Bullfinch's Mythology to start.) This century
especially has seen a blending of the two pantheons.
You'll notice the similarity between Hera and Heracles -- I don't know *why* --
a similarity which doesn't exist under the Roman pantheon, when Hera becomes
Juno (I think). (Hera was responsible for trying to kill Heracles a number of
times: sending snakes after him as an infant, the Nemean lion, and the 10/12
labors.)
To you and most people, Heracles and Hercules may be the same figure, but, for
the purposes of War of the Gods (and the DC Universe), they are distinct (but
perhaps related) enitities. If you can't accept it in any other manner,
accept it on the grounds of literary (artistic) license.
David G. Beals
writes:
>>By the way, can someone tell me who did those special insert posters
>
>Chris Sprouse, inked by Perez. (I agree that they weren't especially great,
>and didn't really add anything to the book.)
Oh, but they did add something to the book:
they added to the cost of it!
:-)
=> Bealzebub <=
Melinda J. Klump
I may "idiotically blather", but at least I have some manners.
Oh, and the way you have been bashing DC and their continuity (which is
still consistant in this conversation) has been full of manners? Not.
David Beals again!******
Historically from the "real world" timeline you and I live in (or do you
live in it? just a thought... ). D.C.'s continuity is a thing unto itself,
and everything I have seen before the War of the Gods says that these two
pantheons were based on the same entities. THAT'S what makes it ridiculous.
The fact that the Gods mentioned in Shazam's name/invocation were all of a
similar origin, seemed to cement the theory that >IN THE D.C. CONTINUITY<
these gods were the same. Now, they're ripping this theory apart and going
in a new direction, which virtually invalidates Captain Marvel's premise.
No matter what the "secret" about him is, Captain Marvel will now be a less
plausible character as a result, wrecking a great deal of work that's been
done to fix his origin. That's also ridiculous. You're welcome to disagree,
but to tell the truth, I just get the impression that you just want to argue.
I don't. I'm here to discuss comics, not Greco-Roman history.
******
So am I: particularly the use of mythologies in comics.
There is nothing to indicate since Crisis whatsoever that DC considered
them the one and the same. No mention of the Roman gods was ever made
by any of the panthenon in Wonder Woman (the only place it would have
shown up) until the appearance of Mercury, which was a foreshadowing to
this event (in one way or another). Captain Marvel's and Shazam's
benefactors from his creation around WWII have always been a mixture of
gods, demi-gods, and mortals from *three* different mythologies. DC
inhereted that mess. Where was it ever stated that all of the gods in
his name were from the same origin? This tells me you know very little
about the character.
David again****
b) So there's no continuity problem, eh? Well then, I guess that would turn
Solomon into a Grecian/Roman immigrant who's suddenly turned into one of
the gods, eh? Yeah, that makes sense... not.
****
Solomon has always been one of the benefactors. Why a Judeo-Christian
character is involved with Greek and Roman had never been explained from
day one. The secret of Captain Marvel and his benefactor Shazam will be
revealed.
****
c) Last time I checked, comics were written in "our culture's popular lan-
guage, not in classical Greek.
****
Part of the revitilazation of Wonder Woman was a return to classical
greek mythology as much as possible. That is why Diana did not get her
name from the Roman version of Artemis. She got it from Diana Trevor,
Steven's mother. I was addressing the fact that you found Hercules name
spelled thus: it is because that is what is popularly known in American
culture.
****
Oh I see! Zeus' power is out for loan like a book at the free library! Get
a bloody clue! Zeus would take a very personal interest in anything he in-
vested his power in! My guess is that Zeus looked shocked because Billy/
Capt. Marvel had been forced to go along with the Roman gods against his free
will, cutting off another of Zeus' resources. (And don't run on at the mouth
about how we don't know anything about Capt. M. being controlled by the
Roman gods... even Wonder Woman said he sure wasn't acting like himself, and
he never uttered a word until the lasso was used on him)
A twelve year-old kid has been taking advantage of the gods? I'd hate to see
you writing this story...
****
Yes, his power is out on loan, quite a few times in classical mythology
too. You obvioulsy have no idea who Shazam is do you? Shazam is the
person who gave Billy Batson the powers that were given to him by those
figures. Zeus shock was obvious at the mention of the name, Shazam,
since he remembers giving those powers to him. Maybe Shazam never told
him what they were doing with them.
I said before :
>The gods had nothing to do with his DIRECT creation of Captain Marvel.
>Remenber Black Adam? (I wonder if he is returning here?) He got his
>name from Sumerian and Egyptian gods.
David says:*****
Which proves nothing, and is as relevant as the price of tea in China.
*****
It means a LOT. Shazam get his from Sumer/Egypt for Adam, then Adam
turned evil. Then Shazam had to get them from somewhere else, so he
picked and chose from the three panthenons for Captain Marvel. Now one
of those panthenons is collecting interest.
>I wonder why the Romans weren't at Morpheus' palace during the Season of
>Mists--the Greeks had withdrawn from the world, but where were the Romans???
>
to which I said:
I bet its because they were getting ready for this event, or something
>along these lines.
David says:****
Neil Gaiman doesn't like to tie his characters in with the D.C. continuity.
I think he had other plans in mind, totally unrelated with WoTG. Hell,
maybe he heard about what was coming and thought it a good idea to limit
his liability and not involve the Greeks rather than open himself up to abuse
about the D.C. continuity.
****
The Romans nor the Greeks are Neil Gaiman's characters. Otherwise, your
observations are correct. However, the Norse dieties ARE going to be
involved in WOTG.
*****
This still leaves a glaring continuity
fault *yes, there is a continuity fault Virginia*! This would seem to in-
dicate that Capt. M. draws his power from THREE PANTHEONS! ONE OF WHICH
ISA MONOTHEISTIC RELIGION! This doesn't wash, no matter how much abuse
you heap on me!
*****
WOULD YOU PLEASE NOTE THAT IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS
WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????
sheesh.
My attacks on David by calling his whining 'blathering' may have been
out of line, but so have his attacks on Dc's continuity and his
understanding of mythologies. Tit for tat. I'll stop if he promises to
listen to people with information and insight, and stops whining and
bashing.
Jonah H Cohen
I may regret starting up a thread like this but...
The existance of the Greek and Roman (and Norse and Japanese and
African and...) deities in the DC universe doesn't really affect the main
tenets of monotheistic religions.
The Judeo Christian God (aka The Big Cheese, not to be confused with
the Big Red Cheese :> is viewed as all-knowing, all-seeing, the creator of
the universe + everything in it, far and away the most powerful being ever.
DC mythos generally accepts this (see Sandman, Swamp Thing, History
of the DC Universe). There are, however other "gods," but a god is simply a
being (or even an object) that somebody worships.
The Greek, Roman, Norse etc. pantheons are comprised of being who are
just a lot more powerful than the average joe, tho they don't even come close
to the Big Cheese. (Note, in Season of Mists, how many of these folks are
scared stiff of Lucifer, who is clearly not as tough as his creator.)
These "gods" differ from other very powerful beings (The Endless, the
Guardians, the Lords of Order & Chaos, or even Superman et al) solely in
the fact that they have worshippers. In some cases, the loss of these
worshippers would prove fatal to the "gods" (which is why the Greek
Pantheon created the amazons in Wonder Woman); in other cases, the "gods"
have a specified ending point (ie, Ragnarok for the Norse deities.)
Ergo, it seems that the existance of Zeus et al wouldn't have to
dissuade Solomon or anyone else from belief in the Big Cheese.
Philosophically,
Library Guy!
Melinda J. Klump
DC and I can't remember all of them. My database is at my mother's too.
SO here is a partial list:
Wonder Woman (greek)
Captain Marvel (greek, roman, judeo-christian)
Troia (greek/Titan)
Dr. Fate (order/egyptian)
Hawk and Dove (order/chaos)
Aquaman (atlantean/greek)
Owlwoman (amerindian)
The Olympian (greek)
Power Girl (atlantean/chaos)
I know I know more, but those were on the top of my head. If you can
think of any, email me and then ill compile and re-post.
Jonah H Cohen
Michael j Pastor was recently berating someone on the subject of
Captain Marvel. I can agree with Michael when he says that The Big Red Cheese
hardly has a consistant origin in the DC Universe.
I must protest, however, when he refers to "bad writing by Cap's
creator 50 odd years ago." Unfair!
When Captain Marvel was created, the strip simply wasn't concerned
with the mythological aspects, the way Wonder Woman is today. Moreover,
having read The Monster Society of Evil (a great, but sadly @#$%^&*!
expensive, reprint book), I can tell you that the stories and art of
CC Beck produced some really fun stories. In the 40's, Cap was far and
away the most popular comics character, outdistancing Batman and Superman.
Let's not knock the creators of the past because their work seems
odd or illogical today. (If you do, you'll have far more cause to hate
Marvel. Ever see those Masterwork collections?)
Library Guy!
The Napoleon of Crime
>dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals):
>>Solomon may be a Judeo-Christian figure...
>
>Referring to Solomon as "Judeo-Christian" makes as much sense as referring
>to Hercules as "Greco-American."
Frankly, I'd like to see a Franco-American character involved:
Capt. Marvel vs Chef Boy-Ar-Dee!
"Do you know who I am?"
"...No."
"I'm Adam."
"......Oh, I'm Chef
Boy-Ar-Dee."
Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
INTERNET: mori...@tc.fluke.COM
Manual UUCP: {uunet, uw-beaver, sun, microsoft, hplsla}!fluke!moriarty
CREDO: You gotta be Cruel to be Kind...
<*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want with me, but leave my employers alone! <*>
Marty Ward
>mk...@andrew.cmu.edu (Melinda J. Klump) writes:
^ actually M. Pastor
>>David Beals idiotically blathers:
^ hmmm, that time of month is it, MP?
>> [ a whole whack of stuff, go back and read it ]
David Beals, with a burst of sarcasm aimed at a particular somebody writes:
>Alright, alright! I'm so sick of all this! It's brilliant! War of the Gods
>is brilliant! Buy it! Praise be to Perez! The art's a delight! The writing
>is impecable! No continuity errors! "A delight to the senses!" proclaim
>Siskel & Ebert!
Mr. David G. Beals - the man who read one cross-over too many.
Film at eleven. :)
Ian Lance Taylor
>I've been trying to remember all of the mythologically based heroes in
>DC and I can't remember all of them. My database is at my mother's too.
>SO here is a partial list:
>Dr. Fate (order/egyptian)
>Hawk and Dove (order/chaos)
>Power Girl (atlantean/chaos)
Just out of personal curiousity, are there any actual myths (I mean,
you know, old myths, not from comic books, OK?) about order and chaos
as they are portrayed by Marvel and/or D.C.?
--
Ian Taylor i...@airs.com uunet!airs!ian
First person to identify this quote wins a free e-mail message:
``I'm for total honest democracy, you know, and I also believe the
American system can work.''
Paul Pereira
>dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals):
>>Solomon may be a Judeo-Christian figure...
>
>Referring to Solomon as "Judeo-Christian" makes as much sense as referring
>to Hercules as "Greco-American."
WHAT?!?!? You have got to be joking. Solomon IS definitely 'Judeo-Christian'.
He is a major character in the Jewish Torah. OK, that takes care of the
'Judeo' part. As for the 'Christian' part -- believe it or not, the
Scriptures of Christianity are MOSTLY made up of the Jewish Torah. And they
do not consider it to be the "Jewish stuff that they agree with", but an
actual part of the Christian faith.
-paul
Melinda J. Klump
acknowledges the J-C god as the big kahuna.
Another interpretation could be that God is just the biggest chess
player, without a dependency on the # of worshippers to have X amount
of power. And the rest of the godlings concede to that. (Much the way
that little countries bow to the wishes of the US in the past with no
argument).
It could happen :-)
Mark Joseph Bylander
>mk...@andrew.cmu.edu (Melinda J. Klump) writes:
>>I've been trying to remember all of the mythologically based heroes in
>>DC and I can't remember all of them. My database is at my mother's too.
>>SO here is a partial list:
>>Dr. Fate (order/egyptian)
>>Hawk and Dove (order/chaos)
>>Power Girl (atlantean/chaos)
>Just out of personal curiousity, are there any actual myths (I mean,
>you know, old myths, not from comic books, OK?) about order and chaos
>as they are portrayed by Marvel and/or D.C.?
I don't think so. My guess for the origin of the order/chaos "thang" would
be the Elric Novels of Michael Moorcock. There, the Lords of Order, led
by Donblas the Justice Maker, struggle against the forces of the Lords
of Chaos, led by Arioch. The books tell us a whole lot more about the
Lords of Chaos than of those of Order.
Mark Bylander
Ben Gamble
[I know, I know, I'm belaboring the obvious here, guys, but it looks
like it's necessary.]
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (obviously) regards
Jesus as part of the basis of their faith. This does not make Jesus a
Mormon, or even a Judeo-Mormon.
[Actually, the LDS are based on a practical joke, but this isn't the
time to go into that.]
The Point, if it hasn't penetrated yet: Solomon had been dead more
than 900 years when Jesus of Nazareth was born. He can't be any kind
of Christian figure.
--
Ben Gamble
gam...@owlnet.rice.edu
Oh ye who go about saying unto each other: "Hello sailor":
Dost thou know the magnitude of thy sin before the gods?
Abhijit Khale
>i...@airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor) writes:
>
>>mk...@andrew.cmu.edu (Melinda J. Klump) writes:
>
>>>I've been trying to remember all of the mythologically based heroes in
>>>DC and I can't remember all of them. My database is at my mother's too.
>>>SO here is a partial list:
>
>>>Dr. Fate (order/egyptian)
>>>Hawk and Dove (order/chaos)
>>>Power Girl (atlantean/chaos)
Also Kid Eternity (chaos), Mordru (chaos) and Amethyst (order). { Yes,
I know mordru isnt a hero}.
>
>>Just out of personal curiousity, are there any actual myths (I mean,
>>you know, old myths, not from comic books, OK?) about order and chaos
>>as they are portrayed by Marvel and/or D.C.?
>
>I don't think so. My guess for the origin of the order/chaos "thang" would
>be the Elric Novels of Michael Moorcock. There, the Lords of Order, led
>by Donblas the Justice Maker, struggle against the forces of the Lords
>of Chaos, led by Arioch. The books tell us a whole lot more about the
>Lords of Chaos than of those of Order.
Also, some other Moorcock stuff the "Corum" saga, for instance. But in
Moorcock's work, the Lords of Chaos and Order are mortal enemies and the
Chaos lords are practically evil incarnate, while the Order lords are
generally good ( although we dont see that much of them).
In the Marvel Universe Chaos and Order arent enemies. In the DC Universe,
they are enemies, but neither is really good or evil. Both have been known to
do lots of sleazy things.
The concept of chaos and order may have been drawn by marvel from Moorcock.
I am less sure about DC, since the first appearance of Dr. Fate certainly
precedes Moorcock. I dont know exactly when DC brought in the order/chaos
motif into Fate : that may have been done later and may have been derived
from Moorcock.
Abhijit
Jim Jagielski
>In article <mumble> per...@csc.ti.com (Paul Pereira) writes:
>|In article <1991Jul25.0...@netcom.COM> da...@netcom.COM (Dani Zweig) writes:
>|>dar...@aix.rpi.edu (David G. Beals):
>|>>Solomon may be a Judeo-Christian figure...
>|>
>|>Referring to Solomon as "Judeo-Christian" makes as much sense as referring
>|>to Hercules as "Greco-American."
>|
>|WHAT?!?!? You have got to be joking. Solomon IS definitely 'Judeo-Christian'.
>The Point, if it hasn't penetrated yet: Solomon had been dead more
>than 900 years when Jesus of Nazareth was born. He can't be any kind
>of Christian figure.
Of course! And neither is Moses, or Noah, or David, or Isaiah, or etc...
The point is that basically Old Testament figures are major people, guides,
forces (whatever) in the Christian faith. This makes them Christian figures.
--
===========================================================================
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
Jim Jagielski NASA/GSFC, Code 711.4
j...@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov Greenbelt, MD 20771
"If we increase the size of the penguin until it is the same height as a man
and then compare the relative brain size, we know find that the penguin's
brain is still smaller. But, and this is the point, it is larger than it WAS!"
John Random Bizarre
sources: while doing undergrad work, I did something like 31 hours of work
in classics w/ Greek emphasis, and my wife is three years into a degree in
the same. So my sources are texts, instructors, notes, and a failing
memory. Cope.
[j...@frame.com:]
->David Beals (dar...@aix.rpi.edu) writes:
->
->>3> This is in case anyone did not see my last post: HERCULES IS GREEK.
->>Look it up, I already have
->
->Unfortunately, both you and your source (Webster's New World Dictionary) are
->wrong. Heracles is the Greek name for the legendary hero, while Hercules
->was the Roman name. (Check out a better source on mythology than a dictionary
->for more information; try Bullfinch's Mythology to start.) This century
->especially has seen a blending of the two pantheons.
This is correct.
->You'll notice the similarity between Hera and Heracles -- I don't know *why* --
->a similarity which doesn't exist under the Roman pantheon, when Hera becomes
->Juno (I think). (Hera was responsible for trying to kill Heracles a number of
->times: sending snakes after him as an infant, the Nemean lion, and the 10/12
->labors.)
The similarities are surely linguistic; unfortunately, I don't have my
Liddell and Scott lexecon at work to see if I can come up with any info.
Anyway.
An interesting, if irrelevant, story about Hera's designs against Heracles
follows. The 'n' key is an alternative.
So it seems that on a particular date there was fated to be born a man of
heroic prowess and great fame and fortune. Hera discovered that this man
was to be the bastard son of Zeus (one of many, it's true) and made it a
point to stop Heracles from being born on this day, thus screwing up his
destiny, perhaps giving it to someone else.
So Hera sent the goddess of childbirth, whose name escapes me, to slow or
stop this birth. According to legend, said goddess sat on the ground with
her legs against her chest and her arms wrapped around her legs -- kind of
an analogous position to "no birth here" -- and while she did so, the would-
be mother could not give birth.
Well, a crafty midwife solved the problem by running out the door and yelling
'IT'S A BOY, IT'S A BOY'. The goddess was SO freaked out that she lept up
to see, and at that moment the would-be mother really did give birth, and
thus Heracles was born into his proper destiny.
Incidentally, for her troubles, the midwife was stricken dead.
So.
-Random
( there's a lesson in that, maybe )
--
---------------------"Comedy. Sudden, violent, comedy!"---------------------
Random J Nightfall//ru...@hardy.math.okstate.edu//No disclaimer...just a clue:
This was by a techno-christian-scottish-barbarian-libertarian-historian-guru.
"Sex is easy, but writing an efficient parser, that's erotic." - Marcus Ranum
John Random Bizarre
->WHAT?!?!? You have got to be joking. Solomon IS definitely 'Judeo-Christian'.
Solomon was not a Christian; there were no Christians at the time of his life.
Whether or not Christians are interested in him or not is irrelevant.
->He is a major character in the Jewish Torah.
The Torah consists of only the first five books of the Old Testament, to wit,
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. I challenge you to
make a case for Solomon as a major character in books that were written
about history before his time.
->OK, that takes care of the
>'Judeo' part.
Er, yeah.
->As for the 'Christian' part -- believe it or not, the
->Scriptures of Christianity are MOSTLY made up of the Jewish Torah.
This is an interesting interpretation of the word "mostly". Do you mean
"they mostly derive from the ideas of the Torah"? That might be an
arguable position. But if you mean quantitatively, you're clearly wrong.
->And they
->do not consider it to be the "Jewish stuff that they agree with", but an
->actual part of the Christian faith.
I consider it a part of the Christian history.
And regardless of all this, Solomon was not a Judeo-Christian any more than
I am a denizen of Braal in the 30th century.
James Davis Nicoll
Discussion re: Soloman as a Judeo-Christian figure deleted
>[I know, I know, I'm belaboring the obvious here, guys, but it looks
>like it's necessary.]
>
>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (obviously) regards
>Jesus as part of the basis of their faith. This does not make Jesus a
>Mormon, or even a Judeo-Mormon.
*Cough* At what point is it no longer ok for an offshoot
religion to claim a figure from the predecessor religion as their
own? The Mormons place a fair bit of importance on Christ in
their religion; this of course has no effect on how *Christ* might have
classified himself, but saying that Christ isn't a part of the Mormon
mythos seems odd.
Would this apply within the more staid variations of Christianity?
After all, Christ had been dead 1600 years when Jacob Ammenn started making
religious statements; is it incorrect to say Christ is an important figure
in Ammish Christianity, or do the early Christian Churches hold an inviolable
copy right on the big JC?
>The Point, if it hasn't penetrated yet: Soloman had been dead more
>than 900 years when Jesus of Nazareth was born. He can't be any kind
>of Christian figure.
Is the religious figure being dead the important factor? That
means no church formed after Christ died could validly call itself Christian.
That means Christanity as a whole is a misnomer, since Christianity took
some time to form in its modern forms after the death of Christ. Christ,
being dead, could hardly choose to be part of a religion started after
his death, so I guess that means Christ is not a Christian figure. My,
that seems odd.
Of course, Christians believe that Christ was resurrected, and is still
alive, so maybe he did choose to a Mormon. Hard to say. unless one spoke to
him . Unfortunately, lots of people claim to speek for him, and their
pronouncements are hard to reconcile.
I think perhaps it is possible for dead people to be religious
figures in religions formed after their death. In fact, if it isn't
there are a large number of religions which can not, by your logic, include
large sections of their pantheons.
James Nicoll
James Nicoll
Robert Kelly
>
>be the Elric Novels of Michael Moorcock. There, the Lords of Order, led
>by Donblas the Justice Maker, struggle against the forces of the Lords
>of Chaos, led by Arioch. The books tell us a whole lot more about the
>Lords of Chaos than of those of Order.
>Mark Bylander
There is a direct reference to this series by Gaiman in the Books of Magic
where Dr Fate is talking about Order and Chaos and the kid replies
"Sounds like a bad fantasy series."
Which, unfortunately, is true. The way that Chaos and Order has been
presented (especially by Giffen, IMHO) has been very one sided. Order
is SOOOooo bad that it wants to kill everything and have nothing. Chaos
is SOOOooo bad that it just wants to Destroy.
In other words, they both want the same thing. What they are fighting for is
the ability to claim they did it their way. (Oooh, an american literary
allusion to Sinatra -- wow. Don't try this at home boys and girls.)
Gaiman used this to his advantage in the lastest Sandman colletion. They
appeared equally shallow and both were ridiculous in motivation as characters.
But in their ridiculousness, the characters were brought out which is why
I liked those characters.
I get tired of all these "struggles" between light and dark, and running
to keep the balance. It just aint that good of a story.
Robert Kelly
rke...@triton.unm.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want to be... Under the sea... in an Octopus' Garden...
er... Sorry, Squid."
"That's OK, Alonzo."
Suicide Squid Summer Fun Special
XBBS System
WOTG #1. That is incorrect. The book is 40 pages; therefore, $1.75
is the correct price.
The newstand edition will be the same price, but won't have the
pinups.
Joel Tscherne
Paul Pereira
>The Point, if it hasn't penetrated yet: Solomon had been dead more
>than 900 years when Jesus of Nazareth was born. He can't be any kind
>of Christian figure.
Are you implying that a character has to be alive at the time of the
existence of a certain religion that believes in or honors him/her in
order for that person to be considered a 'figure' of said religion?
Please. This is ridiculous.
And, once again, Christianity's roots trace back LONG LONG before
the birth of Christ. Saying "Solomon had been dead more
than 900 years when Jesus of Nazareth was born" is irrelevent.
Solomon can be considered as much a Christian figure as John the Baptist
is. I should know ... I went to Catholic schools from kindergarten
until the end of high school (pity e-mail will be appreciated, BTW).
There was no disintinction made between the "New Testament" characters
and the "Old Testament" characters, except the fact that certain ones
lived before Christ, and the others lived during and/or after him. THE
OLD TESTAMENT IS CONSIDERED AS MUCH A PART OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AS
THE NEW TESTAMENT. *gasp* Yep, that's right. Most of the scriptures
held sacred by Christians are about events that took place BEFORE Jesus
was born.
I will not discuss this topic over r.a.c. any further, since it does not
concern comics directly any more. However, I will be happy to
continue discussing this with anyone, over e-mail.
-paul
Christian Ericsson
|>
|> Also, some other Moorcock stuff the "Corum" saga, for instance. But in
|> Moorcock's work, the Lords of Chaos and Order are mortal enemies and the
|> Chaos lords are practically evil incarnate, while the Order lords are
|> generally good ( although we dont see that much of them).
|>
Objection! Moorcock clearly says (somewhere) that this has not always been so. During the course of history both sides have done "evil" and "good" things. It is pure coincidence that Chaos does baaad things at the Conjunction of the Million Spheres.
Anyway, the _point_ is that Moorcock does not equate Chaos with evil, or Law (Order) with good.
(Pretty pointless.)
-Objection sustained.
Thank you.
kicko
"Black Blade! Forged a billion years ago
Black Blade! Killing so it's power can grow..."
David Loewenstern
for me to know the email addresses of all the interested parties
in this discussion. Ideally we should move this to talk.religion.misc.
Summary: Is Jesus of Nazareth a Moslem-Bahai figure?
The argument appears to be whether an X figure
is one identified by Xs with their beliefs, or a figure who identified
him/herself with Xs. If we can agree that Solomon was a Jew, and not
any sort of Christian, but that Solomon certainly is a figure of importance
in Christianity, we can settle the argument quickly.
These opinions are shareware. If you like the product,
please send your $0.02 to
David Loewenstern
<da...@homxc.att.com>
Sri Ramkrishna
>In one scene, Power Girl gets a feeling that she must go to Atlantis...I do
>hope that at the end of this, she would be healed (mystically) and she would
>be the good old Kara that I loved in the past (with kryptonian/daxamite powers
>:-) )
And power beams coming out of her nostrils and breasts (talking about BIG, no
wonder she has super powers, she'll need them to support her breasts! :-))
Hope she gets back her attitude, she's been kinda mellow lately. Ah, the
good ol' days..
Hotchkiss F G
>
>Why exactly should Captain Marvel be "one mixed up puppy"? Zeus, Hercules,
>and Mercury are all Greek gods...
>
>
>no they're not: Cpt. Marvel gets his powers from these gods:
>
>S- solomon
>H- hercules (or is it heracles? i assume not)
>A- atlas
>z- zeus
>A - achilles
>M mercury
I always believed SHAZAM stood for-
S- solomon
H- Heracles
A- atlas
Z- zeus
A- APOLLO (a greek god.)
M- Minos (greek again)
I do not see where the roman connection comes from.
I could very well be wrong, but thats what I've always gone by.
>shazam the wizard has a lot of explaining to do
Agreed.
Dragon.
Any opinions expressed above belong neither to myself or any organization
related to me. The opinions are free to come and go as they please.
P.S. if anyone sees an incredibly attractive alien princess, please
point her in my direction. Humanoid a definite plus. Furry optional.
Non-slimy and Non-cannabilistic essential.
Fraser Hotchkiss <<DRAGON>> 1991 in an alchaholic glaze.
Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt
> The concept of chaos and order may have been drawn by marvel from Moorcock.
> I am less sure about DC, since the first appearance of Dr. Fate certainly
> precedes Moorcock. I dont know exactly when DC brought in the order/chaos
> motif into Fate : that may have been done later and may have been derived
> from Moorcock.
Order and Chaos are not mentioned in the Original Origin (1940s) of Dr. Fate.
O&C were only added to Fate in the past 15 or so years.
To the best of my knowledge, O&C first make their appearance in the DC Universe
as part of the magical underpinnings of the dimension of Claw the Unconquered
(or Whatever), a DC ripoff of Conan which was written by David Michelinie. I
think that was around 1976.
(Lord)O&(Master)C don't appear at Marvel until the early '80s, in Jim Starlin's
brief stint on DOCTOR STRANGE, though the concepts of O&C appeared much
earlier, in a CONAN story that used Elric and other Moorcock characters (with
permission).
The concepts apparently originate in Greek mythology (oh, no, not them again!),
wherein the "kosmos" (order) is formed from "chaos" (the abyss).
If you don't like either Moorcock or Bulfinch as a possible source, how about
Brooks? TV's GET SMART had the secret agents of Control vs. the nasty spies of
Kaos.
--
Yog-Sothoth Neblod Zin,
Chris Jarocha-Ernst
Rutgers University Computing Services P. O. Box 879
(908) 932-0265 Piscataway, NJ 08855-0879
UUCP: c...@elbereth.rutgers.edu BITnet: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC
Melinda J. Klump
I always believed SHAZAM stood for-
S- solomon
H- Heracles
A- atlas
Z- zeus
A- APOLLO (a greek god.)
M- Minos (greek again)
I do not see where the roman connection comes from.
I could very well be wrong, but thats what I've always gone by.
*******
Well, I hate to tell you, but you are wrong, but those choices for
substitutions are good. Now all we have to do is find a replacement for
Solomon and we have a new champion for the Greek Gods, and that would
allow Wonder Woman to stay dead (not that I want her to..it would make a
great story to find some way to resurrect her..possibly as the Roman
champion..to give her a vicious streak).
We all have to remember one thing though..it was Shazam who gave him the
powers, not the gods directly..they gave them to Shazam (maybe not
knowing he was going to give them away)
Christian Ericsson
|>
|> >
|> >
|> >[...] Cpt. Marvel gets his powers from these gods:
|> >
|> >S- solomon
|> >H- hercules (or is it heracles? i assume not)
|> >A- atlas
|> >z- zeus
|> >A - achilles
|> >M mercury
|>
|> I always believed SHAZAM stood for-
|>
|> S- solomon
|> H- Heracles
|> A- atlas
|> Z- zeus
|> A- APOLLO (a greek god.)
|> M- Minos (greek again)
|>
|> I do not see where the roman connection comes from.
|> I could very well be wrong, but thats what I've always gone by.
|>
What would he get from Apollo? The ability to sing very nice, and herd sheep like a god?
And the ability to build really complex and silly mazes from Ol' King Minos, I suppose...
kicko
"I've never commited a smiley to print yet,
and I'm not gonna start now!"
Ian Lance Taylor
>(Lord)O&(Master)C don't appear at Marvel until the early '80s, in Jim Starlin's
>brief stint on DOCTOR STRANGE, though the concepts of O&C appeared much
>earlier, in a CONAN story that used Elric and other Moorcock characters (with
>permission).
Starlin also mentions ``the forces of chaos and order'' in Warlock #9
as what turned (or, rather, would have turned) Warlock into the Magus.
He then developed them further when he brought back the In-Betweener.
The Film Fan Man
} [...] the concepts of O&C appeared much earlier, in a CONAN story that
} used Elric and other Moorcock characters (with permission).
Not just "with permission". That two-issue story was actually co-plotted
by Moorcock.
--
"Right now it's only a notion, but I think I can get money and
make it into a concept, and then later turn it into an idea."
--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA)
boyajian%ruby...@DECWRL.DEC.COM or ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian
Tom Galloway
> Also, (and this is something unconfirmed), I have heard that William
> Messner-Loebs (sp?) will take over the writing on Wonder Woman real soon now.
According to CBG, Messner-Loebs will be writing WW starting with #64. His
last issue of Flash will be #60, with Mark Waid taking over with #61.
"I drank what?" --Socrates
tyg t...@caen.engin.umich.edu
Tom Galloway
>I've been trying to remember all of the mythologically based heroes in
>DC and I can't remember all of them. My database is at my mother's too.
Ones that haven't been listed are other Global Guardians other than Olympian
(who should have been in WotG btw). Jack O'Lantern, at least the original,
obtained his lantern via Faerie. The Seraph of Israel uses various Old
Testament myths (ring of Solomon, hair of Samson, etc.). There was a Hercules
series from DC back in the 70s, but it was retconned away as a dream of
Gardner Grayle (there had been a crossover with the Atomic Knights, so when
the Knights had to be retconned (their origin involved WWIII taking place in
1986), this series was as well) although Herc appeared in a panel in Limbo in
Morrison's Animal Man.
Pre-Crisis, Comet the Super-Horse was originally a centaur named Brion who
was changed into Super-Horse by Circe (as a good guy). In a foreshadowing
of Captain Marvel being bought by DC, Superman once fought Zha-vam and
visited Olympus.
"For a dormant personality, he's got a remarkably active social life." --Ham
tyg t...@caen.engin.umich.edu
Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt
My dictionary (Merriam-Webster's 9th Collegiate) says "Judeo-Christian: having
historical roots in both Judaism and Christianity." In this sense, since
Solomon has no roots in Christianity (they're *all* in Judaism), he can't be a
Judeo-Christian figure.
However, I have to argue with the dictionary. "Having historical roots in both
Judaism and Christianity" is not the sense meant by most people when they refer
to "the Judeo-Christian God"; that is, they're not talking about historical
roots, they're talking about current usage. I believe that "Judeo-Christian"
in this sense means "having elements found in both Judaism and Christianity", a
distinction the dictionary has not *yet* picked up on. (As a point of
reference, the previous M-W edition, copyright 1973, has no entry for "modem",
though the current one notes the word's been in the language since 1952.) In
this sense, Solomon is a Judeo-Christian figure, as he holds a place of
relative importance in both religions even today.
Note that none of this was attempting to describe Solomon's own religion (which
is how some posters took the argument), just the religions in which he is a
major figure.
To attempt to stave off the "you can't invent your own definitions" arguments,
I'd like to point out that modern dictionaries show how a word *is* used, not
how it *should* be used, and that it may take years (cf. "modem", above) for
a particular sense in common use to make it into the dictionary. (BTW, there's
no longer an entry for "cf" in the M-W.)
To attempt to stave off the "'modem' is a technical term so the case doesn't
apply" arguments, I'd like to point out that many other technical terms (such
as "diazonium" or, closer to home, "SNOBOL") did make it into the previous
edition (though "SNOBOL" is now missing from the 9th). The editors can't catch
everything, no matter how hard they try.
I plead "no contest" to the "this doesn't belong in r.a.c." arguments.
Ken Bartlett
Were Fury I and II mentioned in the list?
Also, Hector (Silver Scarab/false Sandman) Hall and his parents, the Golden
Age Hawks had a mystical connection, being reincarnations of pharoahs or
something.
--Dream
james a perreault
>According to CBG, Messner-Loebs will be writing WW starting with #64. His
>last issue of Flash will be #60, with Mark Waid taking over with #61.
When I talked to Mark Waid a few months ago, he said the same thing.
I expressed delight at this news because I enjoy William's Dr. Fate. His
Jaguar, on the other hand, still has a few rough edges.
Jim
Damian Cugley
Message-Id: <Jul.31.16.47....@elbereth.rutgers.edu>
> Is Solomon a Judeo-Christian figure or not?
> My dictionary (Merriam-Webster's 9th Collegiate) says
> "Judeo-Christian: having historical roots in both Judaism and
> Christianity." In this sense, since Solomon has no roots in
> Christianity (they're *all* in Judaism), he can't be a Judeo-Christian
> figure.
Non-mathematicians often use "and" and "or" apparantly in the reverse
sense to mathematicians. It's to do with scoping. You could read the
above as
s is J-C if s is in J
and s is J-C if s is in C
(so s must be in the union of J and C) rather than
s is J-C if s is in J and s is in C
(the intersection). I remember that sort of locution confusing the hell
out of me in primary-school textbooks.
Besides, the intersection of T1 and T2 is almost empty (discounting the
begatitudes and the the unnamed god himself).
//- Damian Cugley ---------------------------------------------------\
|| Oxford University Computing Laboratory, 11 Keble Rd, Oxford, UK ||
|| p...@prg.ox.ac.uk or p...@uk.ac.ox.prg in UK "Be nice to people" ||
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Testament III: He's back, and this time he's bringing his dad!