Mr. Fantastic is Cable's son!
Richard Allbery
and Nathaniel Richards, Reed's father, are one and the same. It was hinted
on the Home Shopping Club that Cable's son would be a prominant Marvel hero,
and this has been a matter of some debate in r.a.c.x. Someone there guessed
it before I did--sorry, I don't remember your name. Evidence follows...
First, we all know that Franklin is a powerful mutant and usually factors
heavily in the Days of Future etc. stories. However, his father and mother
aren't mutants; they got their powers from cosmic rays. It makes sense that
to produce such a powerful mutant, there would be mutant genes in their
background.
Franklin just returned from time-travelling (an old Cable trick) through
alternate futures learning to contain his power (and Nathanial's attitude
toward Franklin is like Cable's attitude toward Cannonball). He now has a
preoccupation with avoiding some horrible future (sounds like Cable). He calls
his grandfather Nathan instead of Nathaniel, which made me think of Cable
right away. He also now has telekinetic abilities, while before his power was
limited to psychic bursts. Cable could train him in this.
The last straw, however, is on page 30, 1st panel of FF Annual #26. Franklin
says: "Stab my eyes--as Grandpa Nathan used to say!" This is Cable's patented
line.
I'm sure this is going to tick a lot of people off, especially coming after the
retconning of Torch's wedding. There does seem to be a lot of unexplained
holes in the connection, as well. I was introduced to Nathanial Richards in
FFs #272 and #273, and Reed said that his father gave him his love of science.
I believe that Nathanial Richards also appeared in very early issues of the FF
(I don't have these issues, so I can't verify). Nathanial was on the alternate
Earth of that story for a long time, and Kang/Immortus was his descendant. The
question is whether they will fit this in or retcon it out of existance.
Nathanial also had a wife (an evil one) and a child, and he was an old man.
Now with all of Cable's time-traveling, he could be almost anywhere, but
Nathanial had to be in certain places for long periods of time and even Cable
has a limited life-span. I expect that Marvel will say that Nathanial comes
later in Cable's life than current stories.
I wonder who came up with this bright idea <sarcasm alert>. Tom DeFalco has
proven capable of this level of retconning, and as a cross-editor story, he has
the power to make it stick. This has crossover potential, so Harras is
immediately suspect. My pet theory, though, is that 501 had enough ego to
actually have this connection in mind when he named Cable Nathan.
Note this seriously advances the conspiracy to make all Marvel heroes relatives
of Cyclops. This makes Mr. Fantastic Cyclops' grandson, gets Sue and Johnny by
marriage, and picks up Franklin. If Franklin ever married Phoenix in the
future, they have captured her too. It has already been shown that Kang/
Immortus is a descendant of Nathanial/Cable. The conspiracy continues...
Reactions? (I'm really asking for it, aren't I...)
Follow-ups to r.a.c.m
------------------------------------ Eagle ------------------------------------
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Vernon H Harmon
Cable's son! Richard All...@gold.gvg (3475)
> First, we all know that Franklin is a powerful mutant and usually factors
> heavily in the Days of Future etc. stories. However, his father and mother
> aren't mutants; they got their powers from cosmic rays. It makes sense that
> to produce such a powerful mutant, there would be mutant genes in their
> background.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Another Bullpen Biology graduate....!! A mutant is an offspring with genes
that neither of its parents had. If Franklin exhibited any of the powers that
Sue or Reed exhibits it would mean that the cosmic-ray bombardment
they received affected their genes (which it shouldn't have) and Franklin
would *not* be a mutant. This is because he inherited the "power-
inducing" genes from one of his parents. Of course it was also possible that
the cosmic rays hadn't affected Reed and Sue's genes but by some
quirk of fate Franklin exhibited their powers -- then he would be a
mutant.
Franklin *is* a mutant (probably because of his mother's exposure
to large amounts of radiation -- the same reason she lost her second
child) because he exhibits powers that his parents do not (presumably
he has genes which produce this power).
This is not a flame toward Richard, just an attempt to set his reasoning
straight...
> It has already been shown that Kang/Immortus is a descendant of
> Nathanial/Cable. The conspiracy continues...
Are you serious? This means that Doctor Doom is a descendant of Cable--
that's ridiculous!! In case you don't know what I'm talking about, it's
been shown that Kang, Victor VonDoom and Immortus (as well as
Rama-Tut) are all temporal/dimensional variants of the same person.
> Reactions? (I'm really asking for it, aren't I...)
no, but if DeFalco set this one up, *he* is asking for it....again.
Wotta load of crap.
--Vernon.
Mary Healey
In article <Yg=mZ_W00W...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>--Vernon.
Deep breath ...
1. A mutant usually exhibits *traits* that are not exhibited by its
ancestors (not just parents). Without a measurable difference, no
one would *notice*.
2. DNA is mutating all the time. Frequently the mutations make no
visible or measurable changes (when you have only one cell that's
different, you won't usually notice). Mutations in the reproductive
cells, or early in development, tend to create more extreme
"differences".
3. Some mutations are chromosomal (an extra, like XYY, or a
missing chromosome). Frequently these are lethal (nonviable).
More often mutations are allelic. That is, the mutant has the
same number of chromosomes and genes as its parents, but it has a
change in one or more of the gene-structures (called alleles).
4. With the exception of gene therapy (a technique that is
becoming more possible all the time), the only (to date) way to
*get* genes is from one's parents. An individual has all the
genetic code it's going to get at the instant of conception. Of
course, errors in replication occur as frequently in the new
organisms as it did in its parents...
5. Radiation is a known mutagen - it increases the frequency of
replication errors in DNA. Because reproductive cells are usually
fast-growing and replicate often, mutagens work on the parents'
reproductive cells to produce mutant offspring. Extending this a
bit, "cosmic rays" very likely affected Sue and Reed's genes.
6. If Franklin exhibited either of his parents' powers, he would
only *not* be a mutant by Marvel's definition. They define mutants
as only the first generation. Siryn, for example, is not a mutant
by the Marvel definition (unless somebody retconned something and
she isn't Banshee's daughter any more). Rachel Summers is not a
mutant (in the sense that she inherited her mother's telepathy). If
Mystique is a close blood relative of Nightcrawler, then his
coloration is not "mutant" (although his teleportation probably is).
Even within the Marvel Universe, the super-restrictive definition
of "mutant" is generally ignored. If someone is paranormal and they
were either born that way or can't explain it as the result of an
accident (radioactive spider, cosmic rays, gamma radiation, finding
a hammer disguised as a walking stick, etc.), they're usually
referred to as a mutant.
I hate Marvel genetics.
Mary H.
Mickey
>Are you serious? This means that Doctor Doom is a descendant of Cable--
>that's ridiculous!! In case you don't know what I'm talking about, it's
>been shown that Kang, Victor VonDoom and Immortus (as well as
>Rama-Tut) are all temporal/dimensional variants of the same person.
You are quite right to put Kang, Immortus, and Rama-Tut all in the same
temporal variants of one another category, but not Von Doom.
Dr. Doom is in *no way* related to Kang. Kang often refers to Doom as a
"spiritual brother" of some sort, and they once theorized (in an old Marvel
storyline) that they may be related somehow through time since they had
so many technical similarities. However, Kang as a descendent of Nathaniel
Richards/whoever was partly responsible for retconning that notion. Reading
any recent clash between Doom and Kang you would realize that they realize
there is no genetic connection between them.
Mick
--
Mickey McCarter, amateur actor & reporter |mic...@chopin.udel.edu __
"Law? This is the only law: the law |mic...@pecan.cns.udel.edu / |
of averages." - Harvey Dent, Batman: TAS |Weep not for Camelot... /__|_
Existential Disclaimer: Believe what you like, nothing matters |
David R. Henry
>only *not* be a mutant by Marvel's definition. They define mutants
>as only the first generation. Siryn, for example, is not a mutant
>by the Marvel definition (unless somebody retconned something and
>she isn't Banshee's daughter any more). Rachel Summers is not a
>mutant (in the sense that she inherited her mother's telepathy).
Actually, Siryn was called a mutant, at least back when writers would stick
to one power of the week instead of ten, because she, unlike her father,
was able to talk while "screaming." Rachel Summers would qualify in the
same area by having the mutant abilty to time travel, without considering
her psionics.
>I hate Marvel genetics.
The Marvel Mendel probably genegineered the Jolly Green Giant.
"GM: You enter a large room with a number of black slate tables.
The tables are covered with piles of scientific apparatus, heaps
of lab notes, and some still-ungraded homeworks from the beginning
of the term. Looking closer, you realize that the equipment seems
like it's seen recent use; you grow uneasy.
Player 1: Uh-oh.
GM: Suddenly, a door creaks open behind you! Whirling, you
see a humanoid in a white lab coat with a fringe of white hair
and glasses.
Player 1: Eek! An evilutionist!
Player 2: I ready my list of quotations.
Player 3: I fling my Argument From Design.
GM: The argument bounces off. Looks like he's heard it before.
Player 2: Uh-oh. Fourth level, at least.
GM: The humanoid presents the fossil record. Make your saving
throw to ignore it." --L. Drew Davis
--
David Henry -- Rogue Fan Club / Mudder Fadder kindly disregard this netter
Obessa Cantauit. --Richard Darwin // What was the question? -- Kate Bush
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS // Thanks... for the memories.--Rogue
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * ud13...@ndsuvm1.bitnet * ud13...@vm1.nodak.edu
student - Kelley Ireland
|> In article <Yg=mZ_W00W...@andrew.cmu.edu> Vernon H Harmon <vh...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|>
|> Dr. Doom is in *no way* related to Kang. Kang often refers to Doom as a
|> "spiritual brother" of some sort, and they once theorized (in an old Marvel
|> storyline) that they may be related somehow through time since they had
|> so many technical similarities. However, Kang as a descendent of Nathaniel
|> Richards/whoever was partly responsible for retconning that notion. Reading
|> any recent clash between Doom and Kang you would realize that they realize
|> there is no genetic connection between them.
I haven't been reading Fantastic Four for the past year or so, but I thought that Doom was an ancestor of Kang's? I believe that that was stated in an annual of some sort several years ago when Kang and Doom first met... That is, if "first" has any meaning when considering two habitual time travelers in a universe of alternate realities. ;) Has this been retconned, or was it only stated as speculation, rather than fact?
I don't remember the issue number(s) that the story was pulled from, but I do seem to recall reading about their first meeting in a huge (about twice the size of the normal comics of today, and I don't mean thickness) comic... I believe the same comic also contained a story about someone from the future (23rd century?) getting mixed up with Spiderman... I forget his name, but he wore green, and he was bald. If anyone knows where I can find a copy of this oversized comic that I must've lost several year
s ago, please let me know... :)
Jay Elmore
>6. If Franklin exhibited either of his parents' powers, he would
>only *not* be a mutant by Marvel's definition.
Actually, Marvel's "mutants" are being portrayed more and more as a
separate offshoot of Homo sapiens, much as the Cro-Magnon was derived from
the Neanderthal. (To use Marvel's favorite allegory...)
Even though Siryn is not technically not a mutant because she inherited
her father's powers, she *is* from a "mutant breed" of humanity.
>They define mutants
>as only the first generation. Siryn, for example, is not a mutant
>by the Marvel definition (unless somebody retconned something and
>she isn't Banshee's daughter any more). Rachel Summers is not a
>mutant (in the sense that she inherited her mother's telepathy).
But Rachel _is_ a mutant because she has an ability her mother
doesn't--the ability to project her mind through time (and herself, given
enough augmentation a la the Phoenix force.)
>If
>Mystique is a close blood relative of Nightcrawler, then his
>coloration is not "mutant" (although his teleportation probably is).
>Even within the Marvel Universe, the super-restrictive definition
>of "mutant" is generally ignored. If someone is paranormal and they
>were either born that way or can't explain it as the result of an
>accident (radioactive spider, cosmic rays, gamma radiation, finding
>a hammer disguised as a walking stick, etc.), they're usually
>referred to as a mutant.
>I hate Marvel genetics.
Amen.
Jay (=
--
John W. "Jay" Elmore Jr. (= Email: joh...@calvin.linfield.edu
[No witty quote for now..] or jel...@nyx.cs.du.edu
Thomas Galloway
> I haven't been reading Fantastic Four for the past year or so, but I
>thought that Doom was an ancestor of Kang's? I believe that that was stated
>in an annual of some sort several years ago when Kang and Doom first met...
First, please break your posts up into separate, less than 80 character lines.
They'll be much easier to read and reply to.
You're correct that when Doom and Kang first met, they wondered if they
might possibly be the same person. Now, they didn't bother to do anything
to check this out, like say fingerprints, voiceprints, DNA analysis (OK, so
in real time when they met, such didn't exist, but Kang's from the future
so retroactively it should have been [as is common when discussing time
travel, I need a few new tenses])...or even taking off their masks and
comparing scar tissue. Over the years, that theory has been discarded.
Kang's approximate lifeline is J. Random Futuretype, Rama-Tut (first appearance
in an early FF), Kang, good guy Rama-Tut, Immortus. With a lot of sidetrips
and veering due to time travel and alternate reality tracks.
"Look, it's all here. Comic books. That's it! *This* is the shape of
spacetime." --John Highwater.
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Chris Holly
Fantastic is Cable'.. Vernon H Harmon@andrew.c (1934)
> Are you serious? This means that Doctor Doom is a descendant of Cable--
> that's ridiculous!! In case you don't know what I'm talking about, it's
> been shown that Kang, Victor VonDoom and Immortus (as well as
> Rama-Tut) are all temporal/dimensional variants of the same person.
This is not exactly true. Doctor Doom believes that Kang is a temporal
counterpart of himeself, but it has been stated as often as not that he
is not. Kang(or rather Rama-Tut I believe) told Doom that they might be
the same being, but he was lying(or so says the retconned history). At
the present I believe the official history says they are separate
beings(although Doom still thinks he will/may become Kang some day)
-Mav
(The Sunset gang Rides again!!!)
Chris Holly
Kang (was Re: .. Thomas Gall...@HQ.Ileaf (1315)
> Kang's approximate lifeline is J. Random Futuretype, Rama-Tut (first appearance
> in an early FF), Kang, good guy Rama-Tut, Immortus. With a lot of sidetrips
> and veering due to time travel and alternate reality tracks.
You left out one..... The Scarlet Centurion
-Mav
(The Sunset Gang Rides Again!!!)
Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt
>Doctor Doom believes that Kang is a temporal counterpart of himeself, but it
>has been stated as often as not that he is not. Kang(or rather Rama-Tut I
>believe) told Doom that they might be the same being, but he was lying(or so
>says the retconned history). At the present I believe the official history
>says they are separate beings(although Doom still thinks he will/may become
>Kang some day)
Y'know, I've *never* understood this Kang=Dr. Doom stuff. Here's matters as I
understand them.
FF 19: Rama-Tut announces he became a time traveller after finding a time
machine built by his ancestor. Implications are strong this unnamed
ancestor is Doom.
FFA 2: Rama-Tut tells his story to Doom. Doom surmises something like "Maybe
maybe that ancestor came forward in time to become you!" Rama-Tut
won't let Doom top him: "Or maybe I went back and became that
ancestor!" They muse on the mysteries of time. I mutter, "What utter
nonsense! Where's the evidence?"
AV 8: Rama-Tut becomes Kang after being stranded in the far future.
[Matters stay about this way for years, until someone, probably Gerry Conway,
resurrects the unsupported surmises from FFA 2 and declares them true. Say
what?]
[I've left out the Scarlet Centurion stuff 'cause it don't apply.]
FF 273: Nathaniel Richards, Reed's dad, appears, having built a time machine
himself and gone off to live in an alternature universe. A postscript
shows how a descendant of his in that universe discovers the time
machine and becomes Rama-Tut.
[Cross-Time Kang stuff don't apply, neither.]
It's pretty clear that Byrne found the Kang/Doom business so much nonsense and
put paid to the idea. Now there's no way Kang and Doom could be the same
person unless some future DeFalco wants to involve clones and/or a return to an
infant state for one or the other.
--
Yog-Sothoth Neblod Zin,
Chris Jarocha-Ernst Rutgers University Computing Services
Internet: c...@gandalf.rutgers.edu BITnet: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC
JON ARVID LOVSTAD
myself when I read that issue of FF, but another speculation is tickling my
brain even more...
A few posts some weeks ago mentioned a new book caled Legacy, in which the
mail character was the child of two *major* Marvel characters (if I remember
correctly). Now that Franklin is back in matured form, might he be this
character? I mean, can you get more major charaters than Reed'n Sue??
I can't remember having seen any confirmations to the earlier rumours, but
am I really off base here or not??
Jon
Jon Lovstad | Sorry, but this part of my .sig file has been
jo...@sofus.dhhalden.no | retconned by DeFalco...
|
SnailMail: Hjortsbergvn 7 |
N-1784 HALDEN, NORWAY | OOOPS! He took the other part as well...
Voice: +47 9 17 59 39 |
Richard Allbery
>Much has been said abouth this subject the past few days. I thought the same
>myself when I read that issue of FF, but another speculation is tickling my
>brain even more...
See, I'm not nuts! There are at least two other people who had the same
thought.
>A few posts some weeks ago mentioned a new book caled Legacy, in which the
>mail character was the child of two *major* Marvel characters (if I remember
>correctly). Now that Franklin is back in matured form, might he be this
>character? I mean, can you get more major charaters than Reed'n Sue??
This might work, except that Legacy will be introduced in the Silver Surfer
Annual. Franklin doesn't exactly run in the same circles as SS, and he isn't
really new, just updated ("improved" would probably start another thread, and
I've done enough of that already). The smart money on Legacy is that he is
the son of Captain Marvel, as someone else on the net has posted. This fits
in with the typical SS story.
BTW, forgive me if this post is scrambled. I think I cleaned it up, but the
phone line is going nuts.
------------------------------------ Eagle ------------------------------------
Temporarily using corporate account | Something in the next shadow is
All...@GVG47.gvg.tek.com | waiting to eat your face.
Soon to be @stanford | Larry Niven & Steven Barnes
Richard Allbery
meant at least five times by now.
I stated that it made sense for Franklin to be Cable's grandson since he is
a powerful mutant. The implication was that he inherited Cable's mutant
genes.
First of all, give me some credit for having a basic knowledge of Marvel
genetics. With any kind of logic, Franklin's powers would be because of his
parents' exposure to cosmic rays. However, logic is invalid in the Marvel
Universe, and we are talking about DeFalco here. I was stating an argument
that I could see DeFalco making. It is a superficial argument based on very
little scientific knowledge that might fool a 12-year-old; in other words,
it is just like all the rest of the science that Marvel publishes.
I'm sorry my point wasn't clear to begin with (you have no idea how sorry
I am). 8-|
Jay Elmore
for Mr. Fantastic and his father (?) Cable.
In Marvel, people can't just give birth to normal children. That wouldn't
generate enough angst in their lives. (The exception is Luna, but since
her mother is an Inhuman, her "normal-ness" is a mutation in itself...)
This is the same force that makes certain that no relationship that an
X-Man is involved in won't result in an inevitable breakup.
For CABLE (Mr. Big-Gun Epitome of Everything that is Cheap and Commercial
in Marvel) to give birth to a normal child (albeit one who will become
one of Earth's most noted heroes) would go against everything that Harras
and his ilk has tried to build.
I mean, look at all the wonderful angst we've had concerning Franklin.
("Oh, my child is too powerful that he can never lead a normal life...")
Or young Nathan Summers. ("Oh, how can I explain that your mother is dead?
And you're too powerful ever lead a normal life, especially when you're
living in a giant ship created by Celestials...")
Jay (=
(Who's trying _really_hard_ not to think about the level of retconning
that making Cable Nathaniel Richards would require...)
Karen
>In Marvel, people can't just give birth to normal children. That wouldn't
>generate enough angst in their lives.
>For CABLE (Mr. Big-Gun Epitome of Everything that is Cheap and Commercial
>in Marvel) to give birth to a normal child (albeit one who will become
>one of Earth's most noted heroes) would go against everything that Harras
>and his ilk has tried to build.
>
> John W. "Jay" Elmore Jr. (= Email: joh...@calvin.linfield.edu
> [No witty quote for now..] or jel...@nyx.cs.du.edu
But since this is retconning after all, it has nothing at all to do with what
Mr. Web of Inbreeding Harras has tried to build. Making Cable Reed's father
is exactly what Harras might pull. He is finally linking all the inbred,
cross-over bred, reborn, ressurected mutants to the only truly normal
superheroes in the Marvel Universe. Reed Richards is finally a mutant! Even
if he possesses no naturally occurring mutant powers (with the possible
exception of his incredible Intelligence) he is now a mutant since he is the
son of a Homo sapiens superior.
All that needs to be done now is show that Peter Parker and Bruce Banner are
really illegitimate sons of a resurrected Cyclops (after he is killed in the
place of the currently ill-fated Illyana) who returns to his own father's past
in order to prevent the first death of his love, Jean Grey. Peter wasn't really
bitten by a radioactive spider. He experienced an allergic reaction to a common
household spider which triggered the expression of his formerly latent mutant
powers. And Bruce Banner is really a mutant who possesses two distinct forms.
Just as Colossus has a steel form and a normal form, Bruce has a Hulk form and
a normal form. He is experiencing psychological difficulty in rationalizing
his status as a mutant, especially when the army officially bars mutants from
holding officer positions, so he has created a separate and distinct
personality to distance himself from what he truly is.
If you do not believe this, look at how the Hulk has switched color more than
once. Bruce is simply coming to accept the Hulk side of himself as more normal,
in the face of a growing public acceptance of mutants as present and real. He
is no longer forcing his Hulk persona to be alien (green) but to be more closely
colored like humanity (grey). The greyness is symbolic of his lack of total
acceptance of his mutancy. When he accepts that he truly is a mutant, we will
see that he becomes caucasion, even in Hulk form. You see, he actually has
the ability to color himself whatever hue he wishes.
All of the opinions expressed herein are offically sanctioned by noone in the
Marvel Universe, although secretly, Bob Harras wishes he could make it so!
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