How to bring back Illyana
Elissa O'Bryan
>is never specifically stated, or even implied, really, that the teen
>Magik merged with the child Illyana... she just went away... a very
>obvious loophole to bring her back in the future.
I hope you're right, I REALLY liked her!
>-Mav(I am not only the Illyana Fanclub president, I am also a client)
Hey, cool! Got room for another member? :)
***
Internet: eli...@worf.infonet.net
anon...@twwells.com or an14...@anon.penet.fi
VBBS VirtualNET: Psylocke #2 @1606010
(Co-Sysop of Michael's Mess, 606-886-2881)
... (Hubby) It's either me or the Comics (Wife) BYE!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Douglas Johnson
David Lemasa
:
Sorry all, but I have to say....
Why would you want to bring her back. She's useless, that's why they
axed her.
Dave
Blase Martin Louis
: Why, why can't some one die and stay dead?
In the Marvel Universe? BWA-HA-HA-HA...... (rotfl)
Blaze
"Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you." - Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_
Chris Holly
-Mav
ch...@andrew.cmu.edu |"I guess I shoulda known by the way
Mave...@cmu.edu | U parked your car sideways
"http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu: | That it wouldn't last."
8001/usr/ch4a/home" | -Prince
Christoffer Lernoe
> Why, why can't some one die and stay dead?
You're missing the point Doug! Everybody knows the Illyana we all
knew and loved (Magik) never died! Bring back Magik! Bring back Magik!!!
(What? Me fanatic? ;) )
Hey, maybe Marie Javins could, like, forward these ideas to Warren Ellis??
*Sob* I almost start crying.. Magik returned.. maybe to Excalibur...
In a perfect world... *sigh*
Christoffer.
Chris Holly
> Sorry all, but I have to say....
> Why would you want to bring her back. She's useless, that's why they
> axed her.
Why you &*^!^@%^%!&,
[20 lines of text were censored here due to the foul and unprintable
nature of Mr. Holly's text]
bastard, Illyana is not a useless character. She had much potential
and was the center of many plot lines in the X universe. True, when
they brought her back the last time the portrayed her as a little girl
who did nothing but watch her parents die and get sick. That is why
they brought her back... as a useless casualty, and that is why she
came across as one... that is not the real Illyana. The real Illyana
was a bitter yet strong young woman who had experienced years of
oppression and violence, and yet hid it behind a playful and outgoing
exterior. She was a character to love and care about. And she is not
dead comma dammit.
David R. Henry
>Sorry all, but I have to say....
>Why would you want to bring her back. She's useless, that's why they
>axed her.
Illyana useless? What, you could find no employment for a teleporting
demon-sorceress in your organization?
The day the devil comes to getcha
He's a long way from home.
--Laurie Anderson and Peter Lawrence Gordon,
"The Day the Devil"
--
David R. Henry - Rogue Fan Club / Memo: Lies, damn lies, and Oliver North.
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS / What was the question? -- Kate Bush
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Evolution: Give it some time, it'll grow on ya.
David R. Henry
>Why, why can't some one die and stay dead?
Ever since the Passions trapped Death beneath Death's Sea, anything
can happen.
Oops, wait, this isn't the Earthdawn newsgroup...
H. Jameel al Khafiz
> David R. Henry (dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu) wrote:
> : David Lemasa wrote:
>
> : >Sorry all, but I have to say....
> : >Why would you want to bring her back. She's useless, that's why they
> : >axed her.
>
> : Illyana useless? What, you could find no employment for a teleporting
> : demon-sorceress in your organization?
>
> view, one of Marvel's most underdeveloped character (whom it was far too
> late to develop). She ranks up there with Mimic and other such wastes.
> I like the idea of Collossus' little sister, but her powers kind of
> sucked, she was a wuss! Always freaking out, getting in the way,
> attacking her friends, etc.,
> etc.
Um, no....
Illyana was powererful, and, most importantly, she was really
damned cool. The fact that she was continually fighting her dark
side, the DarkChilde, was cake under the icing. I mean, her
interactions with her best friend Kitty were one of the best parts of
the New Mutants. Illyana was a character with nigh-infinite
potential. I'll end this here and pass the keyboard over to my
erstwhile roommate Mav.
Oh, and your little insult of the Mimic has likely brought down the
wrath of...Slash Maraud upon you. You have been warned.
----
H. Jameel al Khafiz I have a killfile now, and I'm not afraid to
Physicist-At-Large use it! Go ahead, make my day....
Venom@TransformersMUSH
Eric Chastain/T-Rex
>Sorry again, but come on! Illyana may just be, from a writers point of
>view, one of Marvel's most underdeveloped character (whom it was far too
>late to develop). She ranks up there with Mimic and other such wastes.
>I like the idea of Collossus' little sister, but her powers kind of
>sucked, she was a wuss! Always freaking out, getting in the way,
>attacking her friends, etc.,
>etc.
>And no, she couldn't hack it in my organization (I don't even know how I
>do it......)
This one i love. "Her powers kind of sucked"? Being one of the most powerful
wielders of magick in the known Marvel universe? Having such power that
even Earth's Sorcerer Supreme, Doctor Strange, was impressed? Ruling an
entire dimension filled with malevolent demons who could wipe out half
of our population, yet were filled with awe at her might? Having the ability
to teleport anywhere, anytime, in any galaxy or any era at the slightest
whim? What of this sucked? Hell, i'd sell my soul for that kind of pow...
umm, wait, scratch that... never mind. Sorry.
Granted, her source of power was inherently unstable, but she was still one
of the most powerful Marvel characters _ever_. She just never got a chance to
learn how to fully use her powers, but most of all she was afraid to find
out just how much she could do, lest the temptation become too much. But
near the end, she had the power to raise the dead, for cyrin' out loud!
That's nothing to sneeze at! (Unless you just really don't like the smell...)
And i certainly wouldn't say she was always getting in the way. Start
counting the times she single-handedly saved the entire team from certain
doom. Hell, start counting the times she saved the planet from certain doom!
She was certainly _not_ a lightweight in the power department.
Of course, i notice you call Mimic useless too. I wouldn't mind the power
to have everyone else's power!
Eric / 'Rex
Rex's profound thought for the day:
How do you explain school to a higher intelligence?
-- Elliot, "E.T."
--
| Eric E. Chastain-"T-Rex" gt2...@prism.gatech.edu || ___/ <0> \ ||
| I'm a Ramblin' 'Rex from Georgia Tech... || /, __ \||
|"Heaven help us, we're in the hands of engineers." || |_________/ / ||
|"Maybe it's the power trying to come back on..." || \^^^^^^^ /\ ||
David Lemasa
Sorry again, but come on! Illyana may just be, from a writers point of
view, one of Marvel's most underdeveloped character (whom it was far too
late to develop). She ranks up there with Mimic and other such wastes.
I like the idea of Collossus' little sister, but her powers kind of
sucked, she was a wuss! Always freaking out, getting in the way,
attacking her friends, etc.,
etc.
And no, she couldn't hack it in my organization (I don't even know how I
do it......)
TX: Dave :)
Chris Holly
> Sorry again, but come on! Illyana may just be, from a writers point of
> view, one of Marvel's most underdeveloped character (whom it was far too
> late to develop). She ranks up there with Mimic and other such wastes.
> I like the idea of Collossus' little sister, but her powers kind of
> sucked, she was a wuss! Always freaking out, getting in the way,
> attacking her friends, etc.,
> etc.
Excuse me, but perhaps you would like to step outside and "discuss"
this point man to fist.... Dave is a writer, he likes Illyana...
Jameel is a writer, he likes Illyana... I am a writer, and I like
Illyana. So there you go. Three writers who don't think that Illyana
was an under-developed character. her powers did not suck. She
simply was not a formulaic steroid popping X-force nimbo. She had
great powers. Powers that required thought. She couldn't just blast
away randomly at people. All she could really do was teleport around.
Sure... she had a soul sword, but back in the day, it couldn't affect
most things, and the longer it was gone, the more control she lost
over limbo... so she had to think... had to make choices, and like the
tragic heroine she was, she didn't always make the right one. And
when she screwed up. She screwed up big. She caused the Inferno.
And wuss? I DON'T THINK SO!!! Lets sample some dialouge:
Illyana: Spit and Hades
Dani: Illyana, what in heaven's name do you think you are
doing?
Illyana: I know exactly what I am doin... and Heaven has
nothing to do with it.
And what kind of wuss can take out the Right Smiley-mongers and a
legion of ani-mates with a baseball bat. And let us not forget the
asgardian wars. The Darkchilde took out half of Asgard and Illyana
survived torture, and defeated the Enchantress. Sure she had a dark
side. But that made her interesting.
Illyana never got in the way. She was one of the more powerful and
resourceful members of the team. and sure she attacked her friends,
but hey... she had problems... don't we all?
As for your Mimic insult... be careful, I left this here newsgroup
for a while only to recently return, but in my day, Mr. Slash Maraud
would consider thems fightin' words... Fair warning my friend.
-Mav
President for Life -- the Illyana Fan Club
David Lemasa
: Illyana: Spit and Hades
OK! Jesus! In light of all your heartfelt words you have compelled me
to reread basically *all* of my New Muntants/Inferno material.
Perhaps I have, um, spoken too soon, and should, um, buy those books I
have neglected buying, perhaps ignorantly shunning them because I found
Illyana rather annoying. I'm not saying that I'm caving in on my
opinion, I'm just saying perhaps I should re-evaluate Illyana and read
up on it a bot more.
And...I wasn't insulting Mimic. My reference was merely that Marvel
should have developed him sooner and better. I suppose there are
infinite possibilties with a character such as him (even though he's not
a mutant and was lucky the X-Men let him hang out with them).
Nevertheless, I don't hate Mimic.
I still say Wolverine would kick both their asses......
(Do I suddenly feel the wrath of this Slash character breathing down
my neck?)
Later:
Dave Lemasa
"If you know what's going on, you don't need to know what's going on, to
know what's going on."
My barber, Herb. (Masters @ Hair, Sate Street, Boston)
SHIO LING HWEE
: dle...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (David Lemasa) writes:
: >Sorry again, but come on! Illyana may just be, from a writers point of
: >view, one of Marvel's most underdeveloped character (whom it was far too
: >late to develop). She ranks up there with Mimic and other such wastes.
: >I like the idea of Collossus' little sister, but her powers kind of
: >sucked, she was a wuss! Always freaking out, getting in the way,
: >attacking her friends, etc.,
: >etc.
: >And no, she couldn't hack it in my organization (I don't even know how I
: >do it......)
: This one i love. "Her powers kind of sucked"? Being one of the most powerful
: wielders of magick in the known Marvel universe? Having such power that
: even Earth's Sorcerer Supreme, Doctor Strange, was impressed? Ruling an
: entire dimension filled with malevolent demons who could wipe out half
: of our population, yet were filled with awe at her might? Having the ability
: to teleport anywhere, anytime, in any galaxy or any era at the slightest
: whim? What of this sucked? Hell, i'd sell my soul for that kind of pow...
: umm, wait, scratch that... never mind. Sorry.
Not to mention the soulsword, which have the ability to cause magic
and magic-wielding creatures lots of grief. Illyana was powerful, and
one of the most interesting characters in NM, till she became nuts.
: Of course, i notice you call Mimic useless too. I wouldn't mind the power
: to have everyone else's power!
I think it was Changeling/Morph that was being refered to. Still, shape
changing is a kinda of useful power to have. Imagine shifting to the
shape of a celebrity or the President of the U.S., or better still, taking
over BOB. Say that gives me an idea, ... now where's my genetic duplicator.
------------------------------------------------------
Sam the Bard
Eng2...@leonis.nus.sg
David R. Henry
>Excuse me, but perhaps you would like to step outside and "discuss"
>this point man to fist.... Dave is a writer, he likes Illyana...
>Jameel is a writer, he likes Illyana... I am a writer, and I like
>Illyana. So there you go.
Well, that's the first time I've ever heard _that_ particular logic
used to end an argument. :-). Myself, I've learned a long time ago
that it doesn't matter what the writers in the faculty think, it's
controlling the administration that counts. Then you get tenure.
"You don't really know a woman until you've gone a mile in her pants. I mean
shoes." --Richard Darwin
ShadowDweller
You know. Illyana never died.
How come?
Limbo still exists...[although I know there have been countless dimensions
known as limbo in the Marvel universe 8) ]
Limbo and Illyana are indescribably bound. You can't have one without the
other etc etc etc
You know... It is entirely possible that Limbo was created at the time of
Illyana's birth...
Obviously they are both fictional and therefore in the hands of writers,
but it is an interesting idea....
]\/[
--
- nma...@coventry.ac.uk -
'... Japan is full of Japanese. This is logical since if it was full of
Martians, it would be Mars. ' AnimeUK (3)
-/=*=\-/=*=]\/[=*=\-/=*=\-
Shane Linley
>Eric Chastain/T-Rex (gt2...@prism.gatech.edu) wrote:
>: dle...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (David Lemasa) writes:
>: >Sorry again, but come on! Illyana may just be, from a writers point of
>: >view, one of Marvel's most underdeveloped character (whom it was far too
>: >late to develop). She ranks up there with Mimic and other such wastes.
>: >I like the idea of Collossus' little sister, but her powers kind of
>: >sucked, she was a wuss! Always freaking out, getting in the way,
>: >attacking her friends, etc.,
>: >etc.
Thank God that she existed tho! :) If it wasn't for Illyana than Wolverine
would be dead. See Wolverine #75 (Fatal Attractions). She was the one that
pushed him away from the brink of death... not allowing him to die!
Thats got to be worth something..... *Hope that it was Illyana and not an
vivid imagining.*
My thoughts anyway......
Shane Wolverine Linley
Paul O'Brien
>Limbo and Illyana are indescribably bound. You can't have one without the
>other etc etc etc
Limbo pre-existed Illyana's arrival there. It used to be bound to
Belasco in the same way. Limbo reflects the mental state of whoever
is currently its ruler.
Paul O'Brien
pr...@festival.ed.ac.uk, elf...@srv0.law.ed.ac.uk
Blimey FM - something a little different...
Michael Ellis
: You know. Illyana never died.
: How come?
: Limbo still exists...[although I know there have been countless dimensions
: known as limbo in the Marvel universe 8) ]
: Limbo and Illyana are indescribably bound. You can't have one without the
: other etc etc etc
: You know... It is entirely possible that Limbo was created at the time of
: Illyana's birth...
Nice idea, but while Illyana was bound to Limbo by Belasco, both Belasco
and Limbo had been around for a long, long time before our favorite Russian
snowflake cum-Demon Sorceress from Heck was born. In typical Marvel fashion,
Illyana was corrupted through no fault of her own other than being born
as a walking plot device. See the Majik Limited Series for details.
Of course, post-corruption Illyana might be eternally bound to Limbo, and
vice versa, but I'd sort of like to think that the place can make it's own
maleveolent way in the universe without anyone else's help. Kind of like
a really punked out Fiddler's Green with a bad attiude and a heroin addiction.
--
Michael K. Ellis
mke...@mordor.com
ShadowDweller
Paul O'Brien <pr...@festival.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Limbo and Illyana are indescribably bound. You can't have one without the
>>other etc etc etc
>Limbo pre-existed Illyana's arrival there. It used to be bound to
>Belasco in the same way. Limbo reflects the mental state of whoever
>is currently its ruler.
but are you sure?
there is, to my knowledge, no point where limbo started existing, and when it
stopped etc.
It is a strange place where time occurs differently.
For all we know, Limbo was created with the birth of Illyana, and Belasco
became a *host* for shaping it until Illyana was ready...
from memory, didn't Illyana just *fall* into Limbo at a weak point inbetween
that dimension and ours ?
[without using her 'stepping disk' ability which hadn't materialised then as
she hadn't actually passed through pubity.. etc etc etc]
trust me. Their souls are linked...
Chris Holly
> In article <4ig91c600...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
> You know. Illyana never died.
>
> How come?
>
> Limbo still exists...[although I know there have been countless dimensions
> known as limbo in the Marvel universe 8) ]
>
> Limbo and Illyana are indescribably bound. You can't have one without the
> other etc etc etc
>
> You know... It is entirely possible that Limbo was created at the time of
> Illyana's birth...
An interesting theory. Unfortunately, it is wrong... you see,
Belasco's Limbo was created long ago. Long before the birth of
Illyana. In fact, if i remember correctly, Belasco is from anchient
times... I believe he was a Conan foe. Illyana and Limbo are linked,
but not inexplicably. Limbo is not a part of her, rather she gained
control(using the word control very loosely) ofit during the Magik
limited series. The fact that the realm still exists has nothing to
do with her being dead or alive. Nonetheless, you are correct... she
is still alive, and I will be expecting her return any time now.
Chris Holly
was in Dante's Inferno... and a foe of Ka-zar. Nonetehless, Limbo
does by far predate Illyana(and presumedly Belasco). As was mentioned
elsewhere, it was only the fact that Illyana controlled Limbo that
linked it to her soul, formerly it was true of Belasco, and later
S'ym, and presumedly later Darkoth, 'cept that the Promethium Exchange
never happened... it was but a dream, a nightmare, and after-effect of
an undigested piece of meat or gruel.
-Mav(Agent 005 - Thought Police)
J. Michael Spectre
>>S'ym, and presumedly later Darkoth, 'cept that the Promethium Exchange
>>never happened... it was but a dream, a nightmare, and after-effect of
>>an undigested piece of meat or gruel.
>
>I agree that the Promethium Exchange never happened. I think that it had
>the worst art I've ever seen in a comic book.
>
>-Carolyn, long time Excalibur fan
>
P'fah. You're all just small-minded, ill-educated, pop-culture-fed no-will
sheep. You have no taste and instinctively attack anything not exactly like
the fan-boy dreck you've been grazing on. I blow my nose in your general
direction, suffering smelly plebian pig-dog wormy bird thingies.
Oh, alright, I'm only kidding. I'm only mildly annoyed. Still, comments
like yours, Mav and Carol, smack of close-mindedness and a lack of
appreciation for what art _really_ is. People say they hate the artwork of
Mike Mignola and Larry Stroman because they're unrealistic, but I say
they're internally consistant and both possess an incredible knowledge of
design and balance. Like the art in the Promethium Exchange, their work is
abstracted and simplified, relying on shape, line, and motion to convey
ideas rather than over-rendering. To me, the art in the Promethium Exchange
fit the story and mood perfectly, and admirably accomplished its job. Many
people don't see this. Of course, many people think anything made by Picaso
and Matise is crap.
I encourage both of you to go to a local art gallery and look at some works
outside the mainstream of comics. Heck, just pick up an issue of Heavy
Metal, or check out some art books in your library. Anything to expose
yourselves to other forms of art. Just because it doesn't look like
something Jim Lee would draw, doesn't mean it isn't good.
J. Spectre - who respects others opinions, but would like to point out that
art is not, in fact, subjective. He has had four years now of
design, where one learns that there are very scientific and
understandable rules that determine what is, and what is not
good art.
.
@===========================J--S-P-E-C-T-R-E============================@
" There are some qualities--some incorporate things, "
" That have a double life, which thus is made, "
" A type of twin entity which springs "
" From matter and light, evinced in solid and shade. "
" -E. A. Poe, "Silence" "
@=========================jmj...@nic.smsu.edu==========================@
Derek Jacques
: *delete, delete, delete*
: >I agree that the Promethium Exchange never happened. I think that it had
: >the worst art I've ever seen in a comic book.
: >
: >-Carolyn, long time Excalibur fan
: >
: Oh, alright, I'm only kidding. I'm only mildly annoyed. Still, comments
: like yours, Mav and Carol, smack of close-mindedness and a lack of
: appreciation for what art _really_ is. People say they hate the artwork of
: Mike Mignola and Larry Stroman because they're unrealistic, but I say
: they're internally consistant and both possess an incredible knowledge of
: design and balance. Like the art in the Promethium Exchange, their work is
: abstracted and simplified, relying on shape, line, and motion to convey
: ideas rather than over-rendering. To me, the art in the Promethium Exchange
: fit the story and mood perfectly, and admirably accomplished its job. Many
: people don't see this. Of course, many people think anything made by Picaso
: and Matise is crap.
Geez. Picasso, Matisse, and the schlep who drew the Promethium Exchange:
One of these guys doesn't belong with the others... :-)
Heck, (and this is no insult) the P.E. guy doesn't even belong in the same
room as Mignola and Stroman. I'm a fan of both, and the only true criticism
I could level at them is that they both work too slow, leading to long
delays in Mignola's case, and in Stroman's case leading to books where the
art gradually deteriorates as Larry rushes to meet his deadlines.
: J. Spectre - who respects others opinions, but would like to point out that
: art is not, in fact, subjective. He has had four years now of
: design, where one learns that there are very scientific and
: understandable rules that determine what is, and what is not
: good art.
You're right: art is not subjective. However, the rules that govern
comic book art are not the same as those that decide what should be
hanging in the MoMA, Guggenheim, or Louvre. Comic book artists are charged
with telling a story with their images. In this respect, IMHO, the P.E.
dude failed. While his art may have reflected the mood of this miserable
story, it didn't add much to it, and it sure didn't tell a story.
All of this is not because his work did not resemble that of Jim Lee (whose
storytelling abilities are often, themselves, suspect), but because the
P.E. guy's stuff was bad.
Derek-- who believes that there's a difference between a great master, who
in his search for man's primitive self, regresses himself to child-
hood in his art, and a guy who hands canvas and oils to kinder-
gardeners, so that he may later pass it off as the work of a great
master, who in his search for man's... (You get the idea...) ;)
Derek Jacques
: nma...@rowan.coventry.ac.uk (ShadowDweller) writes:
: > In article <4ig91c600...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
: > You know. Illyana never died.
: >
: > How come?
: >
: > Limbo still exists...[although I know there have been countless dimensions
: > known as limbo in the Marvel universe 8) ]
: >
: > Limbo and Illyana are indescribably bound. You can't have one without the
: > other etc etc etc
: >
: > You know... It is entirely possible that Limbo was created at the time of
: > Illyana's birth...
: An interesting theory. Unfortunately, it is wrong... you see,
: Belasco's Limbo was created long ago. Long before the birth of
: Illyana. In fact, if i remember correctly, Belasco is from anchient
: times...
This still doesn't invalidate the original point. Because time in the
X-Limbo is not linear, it could predate Illyana and still be created by
her. Indeed, Belasco, S'ym, and all the alternate X-men could be
creations of Illyana's mind, brought to life by Limbo. And because time's
kinda funky in Limbo, they could appear at any point in history, past,
present, future, or alternate, regardless of whether or not it was before
Illyana's birth, so long as they could find some way to connect earth and
Limbo (remember: the X-Men entered Limbo by way of the glowing discs,
which existed in our world when she was a child,long before her mutant
power should have manifested itself). So Belasco could be in Ka-Zar or
Conan, and it wouldn't contradict the Illyana-Limbo connection Magik fans
hope exists.
This explanation is a stretch, and I wouldn't bet on it, but I've seen
weaker retcons pulled to revive "dead" characters.
I mean, Jean Grey *was* in a cocoon in Sheepshead Bay all those years :-)
Derek
Carolyn...@mobiuscon.com
>I am sorry... I misspoke myself... Belasco is circa 13th century, he
>was in Dante's Inferno... and a foe of Ka-zar. Nonetehless, Limbo
>does by far predate Illyana(and presumedly Belasco). As was mentioned
>elsewhere, it was only the fact that Illyana controlled Limbo that
>linked it to her soul, formerly it was true of Belasco, and later
>S'ym, and presumedly later Darkoth, 'cept that the Promethium Exchange
>never happened... it was but a dream, a nightmare, and after-effect of
>an undigested piece of meat or gruel.
I agree that the Promethium Exchange never happened. I think that it had
K Nasimok
> People say they hate the artwork of
>Mike Mignola and Larry Stroman because they're unrealistic, but I say
>they're internally consistant and both possess an incredible knowledge of
>design and balance. Like the art in the Promethium Exchange, their work is
>abstracted and simplified, relying on shape, line, and motion to convey
>ideas rather than over-rendering. To me, the art in the Promethium Exchange
>fit the story and mood perfectly, and admirably accomplished its job. Many
>people don't see this. Of course, many people think anything made by Picaso
>and Matise is crap.
I agree. I loved Stroman's art in X-Factor. it was fresh, different, and
uh, well, neat. (well it always seems like when you describe something,
there should be at least three adjectives)
The art in the Promethium exchange fit well with the feel of the story, the
way comic art should be. The art should help progress and animate the
story, not just be a bunch of pretty pictures.
>J. Spectre - who respects others opinions, but would like to point out that
> art is not, in fact, subjective. He has had four years now of
> design, where one learns that there are very scientific and
> understandable rules that determine what is, and what is not
> good art.
Ricochet==> see Spectre's comment. ditto. (though I'm not in design, didn'
t learn a thing he did and (oh crap, that three expression minimum is on
again, better think of something quick)......ah forget it.
******************************************************************************
* Marc Iturriaga * C O * 'How would you like it if I *
* U of Waterloo * >>>--I-----C-----T--> * sniffed your crotch Smithers' *
* Ontario, Canada * R H E * 'If...*YOU*...did it sir?' *
* aka 'Ricochet' * * - Mr. Burns and Smithers *
******************************************************************************
kana...@mechanical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Carolyn...@mobiuscon.com
> *delete, delete, delete*
>
>>>S'ym, and presumedly later Darkoth, 'cept that the Promethium Exchange
>>>never happened... it was but a dream, a nightmare, and after-effect of
>>>an undigested piece of meat or gruel.
>>
>>I agree that the Promethium Exchange never happened. I think that it had
>>the worst art I've ever seen in a comic book.
>>
>>-Carolyn, long time Excalibur fan
>>
<delete>
>Oh, alright, I'm only kidding. I'm only mildly annoyed. Still, comments
>like yours, Mav and Carol, smack of close-mindedness and a lack of
>appreciation for what art _really_ is. People say they hate the artwork >
of
>Mike Mignola and Larry Stroman because they're unrealistic, but I say
>they're internally consistant and both possess an incredible knowledge of
>design and balance. Like the art in the Promethium Exchange, their work
> is
>abstracted and simplified, relying on shape, line, and motion to convey
>ideas rather than over-rendering. To me, the art in the Promethium
> Exchange
>fit the story and mood perfectly, and admirably accomplished its job.
> Many
>people don't see this. Of course, many people think anything made by
> Picaso
>and Matise is crap.
Oh, really? I happen to have taken a course in Art History, so I assure
you I have had exposure to art besides that in comic books. However, the
purpose of the art in a comic book is to tell a story, and part of this in a
serious book is helping the reader suspend their disbelief. Art that is
realistic in style helps with this.
Art in a comic book should be suited to the type of story it tells. For
instance, I like the art in Groo the Wanderer, and feel the style of that
art is suited to the humorous nature of its stories. However, that style of
art would not be suitable for any serious comic book. The type of art that
I feel would be suitable for a story set in Limbo would be surrealistic, not
abstract.
Oh, and Jim Lee is not my favorite comic artist. My favorite comic book
artists are Wendy Pini and Alan Davis. I can't say that I have an opinion
about the work of Stroman and Mignola, since I am not familiar with their
work. As for other forms of art, I like (in on particular order) the 6
masters of the Italian Renaissance, Rembrandt, Hans Holbien, Thomas Cole,
the Pre-Raphaelites, the Impressionists, Dali, Escher, Michael Whelan, and
Jody Lee (does the covers for Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series,
BTW good books if you like fantasy).
-Carolyn, who admits a preference for realism, but does like some abstract
art
J. Michael Spectre
>From: Carolyn...@mobiuscon.com
*Spectre ranting deleted*
>
> Oh, really? I happen to have taken a course in Art History, so I assure
>you I have had exposure to art besides that in comic books. However, the
>purpose of the art in a comic book is to tell a story, and part of this in a
>serious book is helping the reader suspend their disbelief. Art that is
>realistic in style helps with this.
Not necessarily. I have seen many a story feature unrealistic art that did
wonders to advance suspension of disbelief, and to tell the story. I direct
you to the first 5 or 6 issues of Terror, Dark Horse's Underground, and
Adventure Comic's Paranoia limited series.
> Art in a comic book should be suited to the type of story it tells. For
>instance, I like the art in Groo the Wanderer, and feel the style of that
>art is suited to the humorous nature of its stories. However, that style of
>art would not be suitable for any serious comic book. The type of art that
>I feel would be suitable for a story set in Limbo would be surrealistic, not
>abstract.
Groo: excellent point, well stated.
Limbo: hmmm... a highly subjective opinion.
> Oh, and Jim Lee is not my favorite comic artist. My favorite comic book
>artists are Wendy Pini and Alan Davis. I can't say that I have an opinion
>about the work of Stroman and Mignola, since I am not familiar with their
>work.
I'm not familiar with Pini, but I enjoy Davis. His art has a certain
generic quality, however. All of the characters, costumes, and monsters
have the same basic structure/design. Virtually everything that's not human
looks like a War Wolf with a few extras tagged on.
I have no real favorites, though I'm partial to Leonardi, Dodson, and of
course, Stroman and Mignola.
As for other forms of art, I like (in on particular order) the 6
>masters of the Italian Renaissance, Rembrandt, Hans Holbien, Thomas Cole,
>the Pre-Raphaelites, the Impressionists, Dali, Escher, Michael Whelan, and
>Jody Lee (does the covers for Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series,
>BTW good books if you like fantasy).
Personally, I like the Baroque, and the old Greek sculptors. Bernini was a
genius. Look at some of his sculpture if you get the chance. I'm also a
fan of Van Eyck, though his lack of internal structure or consistant
perspective bothers me.
>
>-Carolyn, who admits a preference for realism, but does like some abstract
>art
>
J. Spectre - who also prefers realism, but needs to eat his pizza before it
gets cold.
Chris Holly
> sheep. You have no taste and instinctively attack anything not exactly like
> the fan-boy dreck you've been grazing on. I blow my nose in your general
> direction, suffering smelly plebian pig-dog wormy bird thingies.
P'shaw
> Oh, alright, I'm only kidding. I'm only mildly annoyed. Still, comments
> like yours, Mav and Carol, smack of close-mindedness and a lack of
> appreciation for what art _really_ is. People say they hate the artwork of
> Mike Mignola and Larry Stroman because they're unrealistic, but I say
> they're internally consistant and both possess an incredible knowledge of
> design and balance. Like the art in the Promethium Exchange, their work is
> abstracted and simplified, relying on shape, line, and motion to convey
> ideas rather than over-rendering. To me, the art in the Promethium Exchange
> fit the story and mood perfectly, and admirably accomplished its job. Many
> people don't see this. Of course, many people think anything made by Picaso
> and Matise is crap.
>
> I encourage both of you to go to a local art gallery and look at some works
> outside the mainstream of comics. Heck, just pick up an issue of Heavy
> Metal, or check out some art books in your library. Anything to expose
> yourselves to other forms of art. Just because it doesn't look like
> something Jim Lee would draw, doesn't mean it isn't good.
Okay... usually I am the first person to complain about people who
excerpt the whole bodies of messages, but I doing so this time,
because I think that J's(or is that Michael's) letter needs to be
taken in full context. Mostly because I don't want this to come
across as a fanboyish flame... God knows I hate that... But I don't
think there is much danger in that because I agree with him!!!
Shocking, huh...
Anyway, Yes, i totally agree that too much comic art is cloned over
pumped Image crap. Some of the Image people I do like however,(Todd
McFarlane, Jim Lee, and Erik Larsen to precise). Others I can't
stand(notably Rob Liefeld, even though I loved the Hawk & Dove stuff,
as well as the Hero Alliance stuff, and even some of his Early New
Mutants stuff... I mean, I have to thank the man that gave Richtor
back his hair)... but I am not a typical fanboy art lover.
The two abstracted artists that you mention happen to be two of my
favorites, I am a *VERY* big Mignola fan(HELLBOY RULZ), and my
roommate Jameel(everyone's favorite Kirbian) will personally attest to
my going into super-fanboy mode when we met Larry Stroman a couple of
months back(he is really cool, BTW). Jameel will also attest to the
fact that I am a huge figurative art fan, and I have a rather
extensive Patrick Nagel collection which adorns the lovely walls of my
home. I also spent years taking advanced art classes(6th grade
through college) and only dropped out of art school because I felt
that the dept. at CMU was too close minded at what they would accept
as art.
I have no problem with non-photorealistic work, in fact Jameel tried
to get me to buy to Paintings by Nagel(my favorite artist) and I
wouldn't because I felt that they didn't appear flat enough. A Nagel
is to be figurative, form and color being important, not depth and
texture, and the two works that he wanted me to buy simply had far to
much shadow and shading in them. My own artwork tends to be a bit
more realistic than that of Nagel, but I am not by any strech a
realist. The things I draw are more of a mix between Nagel and Roy
Lichtenstein(another of my favorites).
The problems that I had with the Promethium Exchange were altogether
different. First and formost in direct contradiction to J's
accusations, it is not that I thought the style of the art was bad.
On the contrary, as I said, I find abstraction quite refreshing in the
hardcore gun-toating world of today. Actually, I just thought that
the implementation sucked. I mean it was really bad. It bothers me
that I can't remember who drew that.... but for some reason, it seems
like it was someone whom I liked somewhere else... I can't put a
finger on it though.
This happens alot, actually... I stated already that there are at
least to works of Nagel that I absolutely hate. I hated most of
McFarlane's Spidey stuff, and yet I love Spawn. Gotham by Gaslight
and Master of the future are great testaments to P. Craig Russel's
work... as is Sandman, but Robin 3000.... eeewwwww('course, the fact
that the story was horrible didn't help). As I stated in another
post, I hate the Silver(I refuse to accept the P word) armor of Doctor
Doom and yet it was created by another of my favorite artists, Walt
Simonson. I have a lot of favorite artists.... and writers... and
musicians... sigh... I guess that comes with having diverse tastes...
but I digress.
Back to the Promethium Exchange... Aside from the art, the story as I
remember it had many contradictions to previous stories, and I *HATE*
retcons, especially when they have to do with characters i care about
(and around these parts, some times I feel like poor Illyana's
guardian angel). Like the art, I just felt that it was plum bad. I
mean, this is total opinion here, and I accept that you like it... But
i really thought it was stupid.
As I said when I responded to your original post on the matter,
however, I felt that you posted in an inquisitive and thought
provoking manner. Short form: you sound intelligent. And I
appreciate that. Mostly when I get into Illyana arguments, the
antagonist has a view of "She's dead accept it", or "she was stupid
anyway" but you are one of the first people in along time who has
actually proposed and intelligent argument. You backed up your views,
and you didn't come across childish. Why, if I weren't so damn
stubborn and set in my ways, I might have even considered your
argument valid for a moment, and that my friend, is one of the best
compliments that I can give.
-Mav(and she's not dead comma dammit!! :-)
Chris Holly
> This still doesn't invalidate the original point. Because time in the
> X-Limbo is not linear, it could predate Illyana and still be created by
> her. Indeed, Belasco, S'ym, and all the alternate X-men could be
> creations of Illyana's mind, brought to life by Limbo. And because time's
> kinda funky in Limbo, they could appear at any point in history, past,
> present, future, or alternate, regardless of whether or not it was before
> Illyana's birth, so long as they could find some way to connect earth and
> Limbo (remember: the X-Men entered Limbo by way of the glowing discs,
> which existed in our world when she was a child,long before her mutant
> power should have manifested itself). So Belasco could be in Ka-Zar or
> Conan, and it wouldn't contradict the Illyana-Limbo connection Magik fans
> hope exists.
But Illyana didn't create Limbo... really... she didn't there is no
reason why she would have. You are basing your theory on the fact
that Limbo was linked to her, but it has been linked to others in much
the same way. Really, there is no more reason to believe that she
created it before she was born than there is to Belasco doing it
before he was born. And Belasco ruled the realm for far longer than
Illyana did. The histroy of Limbo is long standing, and predates the
Illyana character. You're theory cannot come to pass with out a major
and in my opinion unnecessary retcon(unnecessary reton is kinda
redundant :-)
> This explanation is a stretch, and I wouldn't bet on it, but I've seen
> weaker retcons pulled to revive "dead" characters.
I want her back too, friend, but there are much better and stronger
ways of doing it.
> I mean, Jean Grey *was* in a cocoon in Sheepshead Bay all those years :-)
Ummm... actually, Jean Grey is dead on the moon... or so some would
argue
:-)
Eivind Gladheim streng
> I am sorry... I misspoke myself... Belasco is circa 13th century, he
> was in Dante's Inferno... and a foe of Ka-zar. Nonetehless, Limbo
> does by far predate Illyana(and presumedly Belasco). As was mentioned
> elsewhere, it was only the fact that Illyana controlled Limbo that
> linked it to her soul, formerly it was true of Belasco, and later
> S'ym, and presumedly later Darkoth, 'cept that the Promethium Exchange
> never happened... it was but a dream, a nightmare, and after-effect of
> an undigested piece of meat or gruel.
The Promethium Exchange DID happen. Otherwise Shrill had not needed
to beat the sh*t out of Darkoth to get him to leave the Soulsword alone.
:-)
And we have also learned that all the different Limbos of the Marvel
Universe is one and the same. We are just seeing the part of it that
is shaped according to that part's ruler in any given appearance.
--
- the WaRPed One, keeper of the Captain Ultra flame, boldly
going where many have gone before.
*********************************************************************
"It is better with two repairmen, than with no repairmen!"
- Pompel in _Pompel og Pilt_
*********************************************************************
Paul O'Brien
>The problems that I had with the Promethium Exchange were altogether
>different. First and formost in direct contradiction to J's
>accusations, it is not that I thought the style of the art was bad.
>On the contrary, as I said, I find abstraction quite refreshing in the
>hardcore gun-toating world of today. Actually, I just thought that
>the implementation sucked. I mean it was really bad. It bothers me
>that I can't remember who drew that.... but for some reason, it seems
>like it was someone whom I liked somewhere else... I can't put a
>finger on it though.
The Promethium Exchange was drawn by Mark Badger, who presumably
had just received an unusually large gas bill and needed to slum
it for a while. And I liked the art, anyway.
Paul O'Brien
>And we have also learned that all the different Limbos of the Marvel
>Universe is one and the same. We are just seeing the part of it that
>is shaped according to that part's ruler in any given appearance.
BZZZT! Unless this one was retconned outside the X-books when I
wasn't looking, Magik's Limbo is not the same place as True Limbo
(the dimension ruled by Immortus, or whoever's there these days).
The difference is that whereas time doesn't pass in True Limbo,
time _does_ pass in Magik's Limbo, just in a very strange way.
Different physical laws, different dimension.
Chris Holly
> to beat the sh*t out of Darkoth to get him to leave the Soulsword alone.
> :-)
Ummm.... not necessarilly, what happened between Shrill and Darkoth
was "a tale for another time" there are any number of ways besides the
Prometium Exchange that Darkoth could have gotten there... and
besides, even if it did happen(and I am not saying it did), what we
saw may or may not have been the true account of it... Marvel uses
that as a retcon alot... they say "What you saw is not what really
happened", the most notable things that pop to mind now, are all of
Byrne's She-Hulks, and the Excalibur Special Edition where Meril
showed up, and Megan when bestial and the team chased her over England.
> And we have also learned that all the different Limbos of the Marvel
> Universe is one and the same. We are just seeing the part of it that
> is shaped according to that part's ruler in any given appearance.
Yeah, I know, and this in particular I refuse to accept, it retcons
against previous history of Magik/Belasco Limbo and Immortus's Limbo.
Magik's Limbo is adjacent to True(Immortus's)Limbo, which is why
things there behave weirdly, but not as they do in True Limbo.
Immortus is ruler over Limbo(and probally sorceror supreme there
too) and this also contradicts what we know of Magik's Limbo. This
wasn't just a retcon... this was a bad retcon(which is also almost
redundant).
-Mav
Eivind Gladheim streng
> BZZZT! Unless this one was retconned outside the X-books when I
> wasn't looking, Magik's Limbo is not the same place as True Limbo
> (the dimension ruled by Immortus, or whoever's there these days).
> The difference is that whereas time doesn't pass in True Limbo,
> time _does_ pass in Magik's Limbo, just in a very strange way.
> Different physical laws, different dimension.
It was established (in Rom Annual 3) that the Limbo Rom sent the Dire
Wraiths to and Magik's limbo was one and the same, (and I may
be wrong about this, but..) I seem to remember an Avengers tale (somewhere
in the latter half of their twohundreds) where the Avengers encountered
the Wraiths while in Immortus' Limbo....
Paul O'Brien
>It was established (in Rom Annual 3) that the Limbo Rom sent the Dire
>Wraiths to and Magik's limbo was one and the same, (and I may
>be wrong about this, but..) I seem to remember an Avengers tale (somewhere
>in the latter half of their twohundreds) where the Avengers encountered
>the Wraiths while in Immortus' Limbo....
Unless that was a really, really major plot point, it's a continuity
error and it should be quietly ignored. It contradicts the Official
Handbook edition released some time after Rom was cancelled.
Paul O'Brien
pr...@festival.ed.ac.uk, elf...@srv0.law.ed.ac.uk
Twenty Fingers - childish, but strangely hilarious...