Comic strips that totally went downhill

[Brian Henke]

With the continuing freefall of Apartment 3-G (today's strip had Margo virtually healthy and Tommie saying "Where did who go, Margo?" - seriously) playing out before our very eyes, I have a question.

What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart during their runs? Did the stories or the artwork go downhill fast? Or was the creator too ill but wanted to go on anyhow despite the strip's decline?

I rememmber the second-to-last all-new daily Peanuts strip looking unlike the Peanuts we all know and love. I know that Sparky's health was deteroriating, but it was a sad way to end the strip.

Wee Pals deteriorated sharply before Morrie Turner died last year. It looked like some eleven-year-old was doing it (off-model characters, etc.)



Cincy...@aol.com

------

Judge Parker, One Big Happy, broadsheet newspapers

- Name three things that used to be in Cincinnati you can now find in Atlanta

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 12:52:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Henke wrote:
> With the continuing freefall of Apartment 3-G (today's strip had Margo virtually healthy and Tommie saying "Where did who go, Margo?" - seriously) playing out before our very eyes, I have a question.
>
> What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart during their runs? Did the stories or the artwork go downhill fast? Or was the creator too ill but wanted to go on anyhow despite the strip's decline?

There's a lot of ways a comic strip could 'go downhill'. Some are in the eyes
of the beholder. If the strip changes its character in noticeable ways, some
readers will think it's deteriorated, and some may think its actually improved.

Consider:

Pibgorn & 9CWL
Sinfest
BC
Garfield
Funky Winkerbean
FBOFW
Get Fuzzy
Rose is Rose

Problems here include Creator lost touch with readership/got religion/phones
it in for the paycheck/lost inspiration when kids grew up/got sick/turned over
to less talented artist.

There's a lot of ways a strip can go downhill

I suspect that the list of comics which have *improved* after their first
year is shorter.

pt

[Freezer]

If I don't reply to this Brian Henke post, the terroists win.

> With the continuing freefall of Apartment 3-G (today's strip
> had Margo virtually healthy and Tommie saying "Where did who
> go, Margo?" - seriously) playing out before our very eyes, I
> have a question.
>
> What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart
> during their runs? Did the stories or the artwork go
> downhill fast? Or was the creator too ill but wanted to go
> on anyhow despite the strip's decline?
>
> I rememmber the second-to-last all-new daily Peanuts strip
> looking unlike the Peanuts we all know and love. I know that
> Sparky's health was deteroriating, but it was a sad way to
> end the strip.
>
> Wee Pals deteriorated sharply before Morrie Turner died last
> year. It looked like some eleven-year-old was doing it
> (off-model characters, etc.)

The only one I can think of off hand is Dick Locher's last few
years on "Dick Tracy", where the comic had devolved into a
hideously drawn treadmill of "Introduce bad guy, establish
connection to classic Rogues Gallery, flail about for two to three
months, kill bad guy in insane and gruesome way."



--
My name is Freezer and my anti-drug is porn.
http://mst3kfreezer.livejournal.com/
@allhailfreezer

[John W Kennedy]

Steve Roper/Mike Nomad went downhill in the last few weeks, but I think
that was a result of cramming too much resolution into too little time.

--
John W Kennedy
Having switched to a Mac in disgust at Microsoft's combination of
incompetence and criminality.

[D Heine]

What is the comic strip "SINFEST" like? Was it a webcomic that went downhill?

I might add a few to the list:
* EEK AND MEEK - When the strip began in 1965, it dealt with two mice who were the main characters, but in 1982, the mice characters were transformed into humans and remained that way until the strip ended in 2000.
* MEEHAN STREAK - Originally when it debuted in 1999 it featured several strip gag situation characters/settings in rotation (cavepeople, psychatrist, boxers, pirates, can't think of the others), but beginning in 2004 and until the strip ended in March 2005 it was focusing only on the cavepeople with rumors to rename the strip to "Tribal" with no success.
* POGO - When Walt Kelly was in terrible health in late 1972 and most of 1973 (up to the time of Walt Kelly's death) the strip recycled sequences with mostly rewordings. Then, except for a rerun period of Classic Walt Kelly Pogo strips from November 1974 to January 1975. new strips by Selby Kelly and Henry S. began until the strip ended in July 1975.
* LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE - In early 1974 David Lettrick took over the Orphan Annie strip with terrible results that he was fired after 3 months and then reruns of the circa 1930's-1940's Little Orphan Annie strips began to run for 5 and a 1/2 years until the new Annie strips started in December 1979.

[pete...@gmail.com]

http://sinfest.net

OK, some people are going to hate me for this. 'Downhill' is, as I said, a
matter of perspective. The original strip did certain things for me which
the current version does not. I miss the old one.

For the first couple of years, the main interaction of Monique and Slick was
Monique's flirting and Slick's UST for her. It was cute, and a lot of fun.

But at some point, the creator got a serious dose of grownup-edness,
feminism and anti-sex&drugs&rock-n-roll. The strip became a lot deeper
and complex, but also became much more Anvilicious and significantly less
fun. It's still well written, and I still read it, but it no longer
scratches the 'light romantic comedy' itch.

There are times when I want to 'speak of things that matter, with words which
must be said'. There are other times when I just want to goof off. Sinfest
no longer is suitable for the latter.

pt

[Chrysi Cat]

On 10/29/2015 2:49 PM, D Heine wrote:

<snip>

> I might add a few to the list:
> * EEK AND MEEK - When the strip began in 1965, it dealt with two mice who were the main characters, but in 1982, the mice characters were transformed into humans and remained that way until the strip ended in 2000.
> * MEEHAN STREAK - Originally when it debuted in 1999 it featured several strip gag situation characters/settings in rotation (cavepeople, psychatrist, boxers, pirates, can't think of the others), but beginning in 2004 and until the strip ended in March 2005 it was focusing only on the cavepeople with rumors to rename the strip to "Tribal" with no success.
> * POGO - When Walt Kelly was in terrible health in late 1972 and most of 1973 (up to the time of Walt Kelly's death) the strip recycled sequences with mostly rewordings. Then, except for a rerun period of Classic Walt Kelly Pogo strips from November 1974 to January 1975. new strips by Selby Kelly and Henry S. began until the strip ended in July 1975.
> * LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE - In early 1974 David Lettrick took over the Orphan Annie strip with terrible results that he was fired after 3 months and then reruns of the circa 1930's-1940's Little Orphan Annie strips began to run for 5 and a 1/2 years until the new Annie strips started in December 1979.
>

On the subject of Pogo, how many flames will I draw if I ask whether the
1990 attempted-revival was at the very least better than the last legacy
strips, if not on Walt's level?

And I'd suggest adding ALLEY OOP to the mix. Though I may be the _only_
person who considers the *rollback to setting it in 1942* to be the
decay, and not the 'allowing the "present day" to slide right along with
the real-life present until 2012, _then_ rolling it back to the 40s
using what we first thought was another time-displaced storyline to do it'.

But then I'm young enough to be the daughter of just about everybody
here and even at that was only reading the Denver Post comics section
until about 1992, so it makes sense I'd be more accepting of stuff that
was already "ruined FOREVER!" before I got to see its modern
incarnation, and even that I might like the 'butchery' better than the
original-flavor offering!

And there are others who would accuse several *webcomics* that I'm still
loyal to, but I'll only go into that side of things if people want me to!

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

[Carl Fink]

On 2015-10-30, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And there are others who would accuse several *webcomics* that I'm still
> loyal to, but I'll only go into that side of things if people want me to!

I'd be curious. I think that, oh, _Out There_ and _Menage a 3_ would be two
examples of webcomics that went far enough downhill I stopped reading them.
_Sluggy Freelance_ went way downhill with the "Oceans Uninteresting"
storyline but has recovered.
--
Carl Fink nitpi...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!

[John Reiher]

The problem with the old version of Sinfest was that it was a bit
"gag-a-day" and didn't have any consistent storylines. The curren run
has a story arc and the characters have show growth and have changed.
To me, that's much more interesting than Slick trying to get in to
Monique's pants... Again. And again. And again.

To be honest, if Tatsuya Ishida hadn't changed how he did the comic, it
would have become dull and repitive, and eventually it would have died.

--
John Reiher
Tri Tac Games Podcast
http://tritacsystems.podbean.com/

[Brian O]

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 1:01:36 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:

> And I'd suggest adding ALLEY OOP to the mix. Though I may be the _only_
> person who considers the *rollback to setting it in 1942* to be the
> decay, and not the 'allowing the "present day" to slide right along with
> the real-life present until 2012, _then_ rolling it back to the 40s
> using what we first thought was another time-displaced storyline to do it'.

I read ALLEY OOP online(hasn't run in a Bay Area paper for years), and then only when they do time travel stories. I obviously missed the 1942 reset', when/how did it occur? It dragged me out of the most recent time travel arc when a caption said something like 'Meanwhile, at Doc's lab in 1942...', and a bit later, Doc said something about 'sending a message to our counterparts at the lab in the future'.

[Freezer]

If I don't reply to this John Reiher post, the terroists win.

>
> The problem with the old version of Sinfest was that it was a
> bit "gag-a-day" and didn't have any consistent storylines. The
> curren run has a story arc and the characters have show growth
> and have changed. To me, that's much more interesting than
> Slick trying to get in to Monique's pants... Again. And
> again. And again.

I push back on that. If anything, the switch to All Feminism, All
The Time pushed several story arcs to the background, ESPECIALLY
the maturing relationship between Criminy and Fuchsia, the
healthiest relationship in the entire comic. The switch also
brought Monique and Slick back into focus (Monique becoming a
feminist, Slick's possible demon possession).

Frankly, I didn't mind it when it was just "Trike Girl" and not an
entire organization of them. Then the comic became centered around
them and Tatsuya basically had them go anywhere and do anything
without negative consequence.

Siding with the "Down the drain" side.

[Dann]

I gotta agree with the "down the drain" perspective.

The old Sinfest did pretty much everything that the new Sinfest does. The old Sinfest was entertaining and subtle. Now...not so much.

Slick was a dick. He was shown to be a dick. His every venture of dickedness ended in failure. But he still provided a laugh. Sugar to help the medicine go down - so to speak.

'Nique was interesting. She was evolving and pleasant. Now she's possessed by the "screw the audience" artiste perversion that was once popularized by Oscar Wilde.

The new Sinfest shoves aside any pretense at entertainment and has stuffs political dogma down the reader's throat with a rhetorical plunger with all of the gusto of a self realized fembot.

I'm not sure where Tatsuya got religion, but I wish he'd give it back.

--
Regards,
Dann

[Sneaky O. Possum]

Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ytFYx.25956$Uq6....@fx29.iad:

It seems to me that 'Pogo' began to go downhill in the early 1960s, but
maybe it's just because Kelly did such outstanding work in the late 1950s
- I don't know how anybody could have topped the sequence in which Albert
disguises himself as Little Orphan Annie ('Lulu Arfin' Nanny') to seduce
Beauregard, who completely falls for the disguise until Albert rips off
his wig in disgust, leading to Beauregard's horrified cry 'YOU'RE BALD!
Urgh! Even worse - you're Albert!' I don't think I've ever laughed harder
at a comic strip.

When Watterson decided to end 'Calvin and Hobbes,' it seemed to me that
he saved it from the fate of 'Pogo': I don't think Kelly got fed up the
way Watterson did, but I think he burned out, partly due to his declining
health - he was a diabetic, and in the book *Ten Ever-Lovin' Blue-Eyed
Years in Pogo*, he offhandedly mentioned the fact that he could no longer
do all of his own lettering due to his deteriorating eyesight.

I didn't see much of the attempted revival, but I was decidedly
unimpressed with what I did see - the drawing was an able adaptation of
Kelly's style to the confines of a '90s comics page, but the writing was
dull. (I was sourly amused when Berke Breathed put Pogo in 'Outland' to
attack the revived strip and conclusively demonstrated his inability to
either write or draw as well as Kelly.)

> And I'd suggest adding ALLEY OOP to the mix. Though I may be the
> _only_ person who considers the *rollback to setting it in 1942* to be
> the decay, and not the 'allowing the "present day" to slide right
> along with the real-life present until 2012, _then_ rolling it back to
> the 40s using what we first thought was another time-displaced
> storyline to do it'.
>
> But then I'm young enough to be the daughter of just about everybody
> here and even at that was only reading the Denver Post comics section
> until about 1992, so it makes sense I'd be more accepting of stuff
> that was already "ruined FOREVER!" before I got to see its modern
> incarnation, and even that I might like the 'butchery' better than the
> original-flavor offering!

Sometimes the bad version *is* better, IMO. The latest version of 'Gil
Thorp' is competent, and it's also utterly uninteresting. The previous
version was fascinatingly incompetent. (Whatever happened to Clambake,
anyway?)

> And there are others who would accuse several *webcomics* that I'm
> still loyal to, but I'll only go into that side of things if people
> want me to!

I'm the wrong person to ask - I only follow three webcomics, and only two
of them update regularly.
--
S.O.P.

[D.D.Degg]

D Heine wrote:
> * LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE - In early 1974 David Lettrick
> took over the Orphan Annie strip with terrible results
> that he was fired after 3 months and then reruns of the
> circa 1930's-1940's Little Orphan Annie strips began to
> run for 5 and a 1/2 years until the new Annie strips
> started in December 1979.

Looks like I will spend the rest of my natural-born days
defending David Lettick's turn on Little Orphan Annie.

First - Here's a 1974 Washington Post story on the Life
and Hard Times of Little Orphan Annie leading up to
Lettick being hired by the syndicate to take on the strip.
It's noted that none of those who took over after Gray's
death in 1968 were praised for their efforts.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19740224&id=SO8vAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xfoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7256,6912820&hl=en
Also note the paragraph saying, "The syndicate and
Lettick are hoping that with luck Annie will survive.
But it's probably too late."

Little Orphan Annie was a sinking ship.
It was going down with or without Lettick.

Lettick's take on Annie took her back to her
roots of being a child (as opposed to the
preteen/early teen character she had been
portrayed as for decades).

His minimalistic art for the characters wasn't bad
(see the earlier Vic Martin art for that), and the
story was okay.
He only had that one story and so didn't get the
chance to develop his "Annie" in any way, really.

I still don't believe it was the Lettick story
that killed the strip.
(And, of course, the all authors after Gray were
of a liberal persuasion, taking Annie away from
Gray's hard-core conservative world view.)

I don't know if the syndicate ended the experiment
or if Lettick couldn't handle the load of a daily
comic strip that led to the Gray reprints.
But the decision was made early enough in the
arrangement to allow Lettick to phase into the
Gray reprints in his last Sunday.

I know mine is a minority opinion, but I didn't
have a problem with David Lettick's take.
I even kinda enjoyed it.

For those who wish to check it out themselves
you can read 'em in the Chicago Tribune archives
starting with February 6, 1974 (a Wednesday)
through April 21, 1974 (the Sunday by Lettick and Gray).
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1974/02/06/page/79/
(Earlier in 1974 you can view the Vic Martin strips)

D.D.Degg

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <XnsA5439B2AC82DDsn...@213.239.209.88>,

I think Pogo did start to go down then. I think part of it was that
Kelly started to get angrier. His early satire could be caustic at
times, but was grounded in the belief that most people (swamp creatures)
were basically good and that bad actors might lead them astray but
their basic decency would win in the end. By the time of his most
famous quote: "We have met the enemy and he is us"(*), he was pointing
the finger at the whole world.

Also, he forgot how to write Porky.

(*) Now often unrecognized as a paraphrase of another famouse quote...
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[D.D.Degg]

Ted Nolan wrote:
> I think Pogo did start to go down then. I think part of it was that

> Kelly started to get angrier...

> By the time of his most
> famous quote: "We have met the enemy and he is us"(*), he was pointing
> the finger at the whole world.
>
> Also, he forgot how to write Porky.

Unfortunately Kelly was getting sickly in his mid-50s,
and by the time of his famous quote he was looking at
his mortality - staring Death in face every day.

It gets really hard to take Porky's advice
when you see your own death rapidly approaching:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-w6POYFGeadY/UyFC-W937BI/AAAAAAAAAvk/jBbs3brgXzY/s1600/Saga-of-the-Swamp-Thing_vol2_panel2.png

D.D.Degg

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <5fe91f9b-6a73-48af...@googlegroups.com>,

This is my favorite Porky take on the issue:

http://tednolan.net/pogo/pogo_restin.jpg

[D.D.Degg]

Anyway, speaking of Walt Kelly and Pogo...
new book on the horizon:
http://www.mcfarlandbooks.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-7987-0

[D Heine]

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, Brian Henke wrote:
> With the continuing freefall of Apartment 3-G (today's strip had Margo virtually healthy and Tommie saying "Where did who go, Margo?" - seriously) playing out before our very eyes, I have a question.
>
> What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart during their runs? Did the stories or the artwork go downhill fast? Or was the creator too ill but wanted to go on anyhow despite the strip's decline?
>
> I rememmber the second-to-last all-new daily Peanuts strip looking unlike the Peanuts we all know and love. I know that Sparky's health was deteroriating, but it was a sad way to end the strip.
>
> Wee Pals deteriorated sharply before Morrie Turner died last year. It looked like some eleven-year-old was doing it (off-model characters, etc.)
>
>
>
>
>

> ------
>
> Judge Parker, One Big Happy, broadsheet newspapers
>
> - Name three things that used to be in Cincinnati you can now find in Atlanta

Has Family Circus gone downhill since 2008 when recycled art/sequences sometimes with some art tweeks began to appear most frequently even after Bil Keane's 2011 death? I ask that since today's October 31, 2015 Family Circus comic strip has most recycled art from an October 31, 1972 Family Circus Halloween strip, except for the mother's hair do and Billy's costume (In 2015 version Billy is Iron Man - a Marvel Comics superhero, but in the 1972 version Billy is a clown.).

I also bet Get Fuzzy is going downhill since November 2013 when Darby Conley put the daily strips in rerun mode but kept the Sunday strips in first run mode, and Doonesbury has done the same since March 2014.

[Chrysi Cat]

Yikes. I'd say you had an axe to grind, but honestly at this point it
just looks like a handle with a couple fragments of head left on it. :-P

Best of my knowledge, no one here is any sort of syndicate staffer with
nearly the level of clout that would be necessary to end the contract of
a Darby Conley or a Trudeau, and in Trudeau's case I can't see how it's
acceptable to even _want_ to. He's doing a very good job on his Sunday
strips, still, and he's going to be _furious_ if he ever decides to wrap
up Alpha House and is told by the former Universal Press that his daily
contributions are no longer wanted.

As for Conley, I not only have no way of knowing what's causing it
(though I'd honestly suspect health problems rather than standard
burnout, in which case, ask Chris Paulsen, you have to _keep pulling in
as much from your art as you can_ because even post-Obamacare, med
problems in the US are still a quick cause of poverty!).

But what I do know is this is becoming your "Carthago delenda est!" and
at least for me, it's starting to drive enough resentment that I start
dreading seeing your handle in my r.a.c.s. queue. And we're even a less
relevant place to say it than the Senate that so tired of the original
from Cicero. After all, _they_ had the ability to declare war on
Carthage and eventually he badgered them into it, while _you_ badger
people to 'fire', for lack of a better word, a couple of cartoonists;
when if there's still a syndicate person here who _could_, they're
certainly _not_ coming back and giving you an answer to your ceaseless
question one way or the other.

And there are probably, disturbingly enough, more people who'd be angry
if reruns were killed than folks like you who want a mandate that every
piece in syndication be first-run. Just look at how many papers still
order "Classic Peanuts" from the syndicate. In addition, there are
likely really _not_ all that many 'deserving comics' being kept from
syndication by 'zombies and reruns' anymore. Because any that would be
able to be syndicated are _probably_ also good enough to make nearly the
same profit as dedicated Webcomics, and UClick in particular keeps an
eye out for promising webcomics to try to convince them to sell into
syndication instead. And there are plenty of times they don't even
succeed, because life as a _successful_ webcomic artist is usually not
much worse than a mid-end syndicated cartoonist and you don't have to
deal with near the Censor Sheep that you do if you go syndie (let alone
the loss of _your_ copyright and trademarks to the syndicate!). Sure,
you're never going to be Jim Davis, but I don't think _anyone_, even the
folks behind WuMo, who started much after 1985, has that type of ceiling
as a hope even _in_ syndicated work!

Why don't you tell me, what (that would appeal to similar audiences) is
currently being blocked by Doonesbury Classics or by daily Get Fuzzy?
Where they're still in place in newspapers, it's because there are more
people who would cancel their dead-tree subscription if they were to go
(especially were the readers to learn that the wind-down was _not_ at
the _artist's_ instigation!) and a lot fewer like you who want to rant
and passively threaten until 'something new, and while I have my
preferences as to what it's like, I probably don't know yet just _what_'
is put in place instead of any rerun.

Though it _is_ mildly annoying how shallow the dive into Get Fuzzy's
past-pool is, since it rarely goes back more than about 3 or 4 years,
and that's barely old enough to hit "it's new to you!" territory.

And at least you aren't in here today with your _other_ "Carthago
delenda est!" routine that the Daily News should spend virtually its
entire marketing budget and probably then some to take up the slack with
the demise of the NY Post comic page... :-P

[Carl Fink]

On 2015-10-31, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... Sure, you're never going to be Jim Davis, but I don't think _anyone_,

> even the folks behind WuMo, who started much after 1985, has that type of
> ceiling as a hope even _in_ syndicated work!

So you aren't familiar with (for instance) _Penny Arcade_?

They've literally made millions. They have not one, but two huge, for-profit
gaming conventions as a _side-project_ of their 3-day-a-week comic. I
honestly don't think they work very hard at making money--why should they
bother?

For that matter, R. Stevens' _Diesel Sweeties_ was a successful webcomic, he
took it to syndication, and despite some success took it back to web-only
just to avoid dealing with the censors (e.g. the syndicate and newspaper
editors).

[Chrysi Cat]

On 10/31/2015 6:43 AM, Carl Fink wrote:
> On 2015-10-31, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ... Sure, you're never going to be Jim Davis, but I don't think _anyone_,
>> even the folks behind WuMo, who started much after 1985, has that type of
>> ceiling as a hope even _in_ syndicated work!
>
> So you aren't familiar with (for instance) _Penny Arcade_?
>
> They've literally made millions. They have not one, but two huge, for-profit
> gaming conventions as a _side-project_ of their 3-day-a-week comic. I
> honestly don't think they work very hard at making money--why should they
> bother?
>
> For that matter, R. Stevens' _Diesel Sweeties_ was a successful webcomic, he
> took it to syndication, and despite some success took it back to web-only
> just to avoid dealing with the censors (e.g. the syndicate and newspaper
> editors).
>

Honestly, I don't rightly know _how_ I forgot what Gabe and Tycho had
managed. Or even merely what Scott Kurtz has, for that matter, which is
probably still above _most_ syndicated products. Mea maxima culpa.

However, that seems to just further back up my contention that Darryl's
obsession with driving any comic that doesn't put out new content with
every update that's released should be put out to pasture and replaced
with something else.

At this point, it's a _whole_ lot less likely that there's overmuch
being kept from eyes that would otherwise desire it, because the
syndicate refuses to cancel it and pick up something 'more deserving' in
its place,than it ever was even up into the late '90s. So Mr. Heine's
quixotic quest just frustrates me that much more every time he posts his
'just asking questions' about '"HAVE THEY CANCELLED THESE YET? EVEN
THOUGH THEY AREN'T EVEN ACTUAL LEGACY STRIPS YET [AND EVEN THOUGH
ACCORDING TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN ME, IT'S EVEN POSSIBLE TO PRODUCE AN
_APPEALING_ LEGACY STRIP, ANYWAY]?"

[ansp...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 12:52:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Henke wrote:
>

> What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart during their runs? Did the stories or the artwork go downhill fast? Or was the creator too ill but wanted to go on anyhow despite the strip's decline?

Fritzi Ritz was ruined when the kid took the strip over.

Krvin R

[Jimmy Delach]

> Has Family Circus gone downhill since 2008 when recycled art/sequences sometimes with some art tweeks began to appear most frequently even after Bil Keane's 2011 death? I ask that since today's October 31, 2015 Family Circus comic strip has most recycled art from an October 31, 1972 Family Circus Halloween strip, except for the mother's hair do and Billy's costume (In 2015 version Billy is Iron Man - a Marvel Comics superhero, but in the 1972 version Billy is a clown.).

I did notice last Sunday's strip recycled from apparently 1985 (completely different dialogue as the previous material was dated).

Going back to the new Pogo, both the Tampa Bay Times and the Tampa Tribune picked up the strip at the beginning but wouldn't last until the end of the year in either paper. The Times replaced Pogo with Curtis on April 3, 1989 (and it's still in the paper Today) while Pogo was replaced in the Tribune with Batman on November 6.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <7e5cab4f-4693-4f2d...@googlegroups.com>,

What does "going downhill" mean in this case? Is it only that there are
no new strips or does it mean the Sunday strips are not up to par.

For my definition, there would have to be new work that wasn't as good
as past work.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <04fb1456-5d6a-4858...@googlegroups.com>,

Jimmy Delach <jdelac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Has Family Circus gone downhill since 2008 when recycled art/sequences
> > sometimes with some art tweeks began to appear most frequently even after
> > Bil Keane's 2011 death? I ask that since today's October 31, 2015 Family
> > Circus comic strip has most recycled art from an October 31, 1972 Family
> > Circus Halloween strip, except for the mother's hair do and Billy's costume
> > (In 2015 version Billy is Iron Man - a Marvel Comics superhero, but in the
> > 1972 version Billy is a clown.).
>
> I did notice last Sunday's strip recycled from apparently 1985 (completely
> different dialogue as the previous material was dated).

I think I'd consider this "cheating" and possibly "going downhill" since
I know about it, but I wouldn't have known about it without racs. Is the
dialog in last Sunday's strip not as good as it should be? I think, in
general, strips should have art to go with the dialog and vice versa,
but I'm not sure I see the harm in recycled art.

[snip]

--
charles

[John W Kennedy]

On 2015-10-31 12:17:32 +0000, Chrysi Cat said:

> But what I do know is this is becoming your "Carthago delenda est!" and
> at least for me, it's starting to drive enough resentment that I start
> dreading seeing your handle in my r.a.c.s. queue. And we're even a less
> relevant place to say it than the Senate that so tired of the original
> from Cicero.

Cato the Elder.

--
John W Kennedy
"When a man contemplates forcing his own convictions down another man's
throat, he is contemplating both an unchristian act and an act of
treason to the United States."
-- Joy Davidman, "Smoke on the Mountain"

[Chrysi Cat]

On 10/31/2015 2:33 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2015-10-31 12:17:32 +0000, Chrysi Cat said:
>
>> But what I do know is this is becoming your "Carthago delenda est!"
>> and at least for me, it's starting to drive enough resentment that I
>> start dreading seeing your handle in my r.a.c.s. queue. And we're even
>> a less relevant place to say it than the Senate that so tired of the
>> original from Cicero.
>
> Cato the Elder.
>

Urgh. You're right, of course, and I have no idea how I reversed my
Roman orators in my mind. So very sorry AGAIN, for the _second time today_!

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <0paZx.26167$Uq6....@fx29.iad>,

Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/31/2015 2:33 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> > On 2015-10-31 12:17:32 +0000, Chrysi Cat said:
> >
> >> But what I do know is this is becoming your "Carthago delenda est!"
> >> and at least for me, it's starting to drive enough resentment that I
> >> start dreading seeing your handle in my r.a.c.s. queue. And we're even
> >> a less relevant place to say it than the Senate that so tired of the
> >> original from Cicero.
> >
> > Cato the Elder.
> >
> Urgh. You're right, of course, and I have no idea how I reversed my
> Roman orators in my mind. So very sorry AGAIN, for the _second time today_!

Because Cicero is the source of the quotation from Cato, citing it in
one of his essays.

[Blinky the Wonder Wombat]

Hey, nitpicking is Carl's job!

[Blinky the Wonder Wombat]

I prefer to look at the l gave strips that were revived by new creative teams. Sally Forth, Dick Tracy, Wizard of Id, Annie, and most recentlyMark a Trail all come to mind.

[John W Kennedy]

/A/ source, if at all. It's in Pliny, Plutarch, Livy, and others.

--
John W Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like That.
...you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not because
it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it is
violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"

[Chrysi Cat]

On 10/31/2015 4:54 PM, Blinky the Wonder Wombat wrote:
> I prefer to look at the l gave strips that were revived by new creative teams. Sally Forth, Dick Tracy, Wizard of Id, Annie, and most recentlyMark a Trail all come to mind.
>

Just "Wizard"? Not "BC" as well?

Also, do you have a feeling _one way or the other_ about post-Brian
Basset ADAM@HOME?

And of course, there are a good number of _other comic creators_ who are
quite pleased with Gilchrist's version of Nancy...

...and over at KFS, most people think that PRINCE VALIANT has at _least_
been released from its worst phase, though I doubt too many will put it
on quite the pedestal of Foster's original...

And if we're going with "in the past", from everything I've been able to
read about it, the final daily POPEYE arcs, especially the one that got
the daily cancelled and the cartoonist who was on it at the time pretty
much blackballed, were at the very least better than the Sagendorf stuff
that's considered classic enough to be rerun without even a 'classics'
label on it, over on ComicsKingdom...

[Chrysi Cat]

Not totally sure myself because I'm over 2 years behind on my full
GoComics 'subscribed' page, but anytime the homepage loads for me,
Alley's 'above the fold', so more often than not I see a glimpse of the
recent one before going back in time. And yeah, I got speedbumped by the
first "meanwhile, at Doc's lab IN 1942" myself.

I have a strong suspicion that it was somewhat-covered-up by Alley and
Oola apparently being on a 'standard-type time portal story' at the same
time--namely, remember the arc with the film-noir actress? I must have
missed the days in question, but I highly suspect that somewhere near
the end, Alley figured out that he was right in his 'other home time'
and _phoned_ Doc at the lab rather than looking for his usual modes of
recall. But no matter how it was revealed, it was going to throw a lot
of people against the wall for at least a couple hours; only a year or
two earlier, there was a 'present day' story where either _Obama's or
Bush's_ FBI came for, I think Oscar, but it might have been Doc?, in the
then-present-day. No idea why the Benders decided it would be better to
pretend the whole 'present day' section had been taking place in 1942
all of a sudden :P

[ansp...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 7:15:11 PM UTC-4, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> On 10/31/2015 4:54 PM, Blinky the Wonder Wombat wrote:
> > I prefer to look at the l gave strips that were revived by new creative teams. Sally Forth, Dick Tracy, Wizard of Id, Annie, and most recentlyMark a Trail all come to mind.
> >
> Just "Wizard"? Not "BC" as well?
>
> Also, do you have a feeling _one way or the other_ about post-Brian
> Basset ADAM@HOME?
>
> And of course, there are a good number of _other comic creators_ who are
> quite pleased with Gilchrist's version of Nancy...
>
> ...and over at KFS, most people think that PRINCE VALIANT has at _least_
> been released from its worst phase, though I doubt too many will put it
> on quite the pedestal of Foster's original...
>
> And if we're going with "in the past", from everything I've been able to
> read about it, the final daily POPEYE arcs, especially the one that got
> the daily cancelled and the cartoonist who was on it at the time pretty
> much blackballed, were at the very least better than the Sagendorf stuff
> that's considered classic enough to be rerun without even a 'classics'
> label on it, over on ComicsKingdom...
> --

SALLY FORTH was only ever done by Wally Wood, but it decline
as Woody did. [Yes, I know there is a syndicated strip with the
same name. Marvel doesn't publish the _real_ Captain Marvel, either.]

Wood lost out to John Cullen Murphy as the Valiant artist in the 1970s.

See: http://mydelineatedlife.blogspot.com/2009/04/valiant-wood_07.html

His alcohol and mental health problems might have meant he would
not have been a success as Foster's heir but I would have preferred
Wood to JCM.

Kevin R

[Sneaky O. Possum]

t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
news:d9iqku...@mid.individual.net:

That's Kelly at the top of his game. The pause in the fourth panel and
the expression on Pogo's face - that's the work of a master.
--
S.O.P.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <20151031191439247...@gmail.com>,

John W Kennedy <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2015-10-31 22:11:23 +0000, Horace LaBadie said:
>
> > In article <0paZx.26167$Uq6....@fx29.iad>,
> > Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/31/2015 2:33 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> >>> On 2015-10-31 12:17:32 +0000, Chrysi Cat said:
> >>>
> >>>> But what I do know is this is becoming your "Carthago delenda est!"
> >>>> and at least for me, it's starting to drive enough resentment that I
> >>>> start dreading seeing your handle in my r.a.c.s. queue. And we're even
> >>>> a less relevant place to say it than the Senate that so tired of the
> >>>> original from Cicero.
> >>>
> >>> Cato the Elder.
> >>>
> >> Urgh. You're right, of course, and I have no idea how I reversed my
> >> Roman orators in my mind. So very sorry AGAIN, for the _second time today_!
> >
> > Because Cicero is the source of the quotation from Cato, citing it in
> > one of his essays.
>
> /A/ source, if at all. It's in Pliny, Plutarch, Livy, and others.

Cicero's essays predate Pliny by about a century, Plutarch by about a
century and a half, and even Livy's history by about fifty years, which
is to say, of the surviving sources, Cicero is the earliest.

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:23:10 -0000 (UTC), "Sneaky O. Possum"
<sneaky...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know how anybody could have topped the sequence in which Albert
> disguises himself as Little Orphan Annie ('Lulu Arfin' Nanny') to seduce
> Beauregard, who completely falls for the disguise until Albert rips off
> his wig in disgust, leading to Beauregard's horrified cry 'YOU'RE BALD!
> Urgh! Even worse - you're Albert!' I don't think I've ever laughed harder
> at a comic strip.

Whoosh, and butter so high!

--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

[D Heine]

> I did notice last Sunday's strip recycled from apparently 1985 (completely different dialogue as the previous material was dated).
>

Of course, that 1985 Sunday Family Circus Halloween related strip (recycled with new art tweeks and dialogue in 2015) was remade in October 2000 with new art and slightly new dialogue.

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:41:21 -0700 (PDT), Dann <deto...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm not sure where Tatsuya got religion, but I wish he'd give it back.

I don't think he's capable of understanding how condescending and
insulting his obsession is.

I very nearly quit when he started raining on everything, but once in
a great while there's a hint that the artist hasn't quite been
suffocated under the patronization.

[Brian O]

Yeah, the 'film noir actress' and her private-eye boyfriend even stopped by the lab to say goodbye to Alley and Oola, which meant the lab is somewhere in the vicinity of L.A./Hollywood. I guess that was another 'secret' out of the bag.

[Brian O]

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 4:29:40 PM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:

All I remember about 1989 Pogo was that George HW Bush being in the strip every day as a rabbit was not as funny as Bush being in Doonesbury every day as a waffle.

[Carl Fink]

On 2015-10-31, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> However, that seems to just further back up my contention that Darryl's
> obsession with driving any comic that doesn't put out new content with
> every update that's released should be put out to pasture and replaced
> with something else.

I agree completely, except from a different angle: comics in newspapers are
as shrinking and probably dying market. Why would a new comic even want to
be in that market instead of concentrating on the growing, dynamic one?

[Mark Jackson]

On 11/1/2015 2:22 AM, Brian O wrote:
> All I remember about 1989 Pogo was that George HW Bush being in the
> strip every day as a rabbit was not as funny as Bush being in
> Doonesbury every day as a waffle.

All *I* remember about 1989 Pogo is a sign on a small saucer next to the
cash register in Mr. Miggle's store:

"Have a penny? Leave a penny.
Need a penny? Get a job!"

--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Why shouldn't things be largely absurd, futile, and transitory?
They are so, and we are so, and they and we go very well together.
- George Santayana

[Brian Henke]

Here were the references in the 1985 strip:

Then-President Reagan
The Goonies
Mr. T
Cyndi Lauper
Michael Jackson
Hulk Hogan

Cincy...@aol.com

[Jimmy Delach]

On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 3:01:41 PM UTC-5, Brian Henke wrote:
> Here were the references in the 1985 strip:
>
> Then-President Reagan
> The Goonies
> Mr. T
> Cyndi Lauper
> Michael Jackson
> Hulk Hogan

And 2000...

Teletubbies
Pikachu
Rugrats (P.J. thought balloon)
Elian Gonzales
Regis Philbin
Harry Potter

Makes me wonder if Jeff will be bringing up a similar strip come 2030.

[D Heine]

The 2015 version:
The Avengers
Miley Cyrus
Lady Gaga
Donald Trump
A Minion
Also: 2 that would have even fit in 1985: Mad Max and the Transformers.

[Brian Henke]

At the time of the 2000 strip, Rugrats and Pikachu were starring in comic strips (The Pokemon strip had started in the E-----r the previous month).

Cincy...@aol.com

--------

Judge Parker, One Big Happy, broadsheet newspapers

---

[Mike Beede]

John Reiher <keda...@mac.com> wrote:
> On 2015-10-29 22:01:28 +0000, pete...@gmail.com said:
>
>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 4:49:32 PM UTC-4, D Heine wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 12:15:07 PM UTC-5, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 12:52:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Henke wrote:
>>>>> With the continuing freefall of Apartment 3-G (today's strip had
>>>>> Margo >>>> virtually healthy and Tommie saying "Where did who go,
>>>>> Margo?" - >>>> seriously) playing out before our very eyes, I have a question.
>>>>>>>>> What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart during
>>>>>>>>> their >>>> runs? Did the stories or the artwork go downhill fast?
>>>>>>>>> Or was the >>>> creator too ill but wanted to go on anyhow
>>>>>>>>> despite the strip's decline?
>>>>>>> There's a lot of ways a comic strip could 'go downhill'. Some are in the eyes
>>>> of the beholder. If the strip changes its character in noticeable ways, some
>>>> readers will think it's deteriorated, and some may think its actually improved.
>>>>>>> Consider:
>>>>>>> Pibgorn & 9CWL
>>>> Sinfest
>>>> BC
>>>> Garfield
>>>> Funky Winkerbean
>>>> FBOFW
>>>> Get Fuzzy
>>>> Rose is Rose
>>>>>>> Problems here include Creator lost touch with readership/got religion/phones
>>>> it in for the paycheck/lost inspiration when kids grew up/got sick/turned over
>>>> to less talented artist.
>>>>>>> There's a lot of ways a strip can go downhill
>>>>>>> I suspect that the list of comics which have *improved* after their first
>>>> year is shorter.
>>>>>>> pt
>>>>> What is the comic strip "SINFEST" like? Was it a webcomic that went downhill?
>>> http://sinfest.net
>>> OK, some people are going to hate me for this. 'Downhill' is, as I said, a
>> matter of perspective. The original strip did certain things for me which
>> the current version does not. I miss the old one.
>>> For the first couple of years, the main interaction of Monique and Slick was
>> Monique's flirting and Slick's UST for her. It was cute, and a lot of fun.
>>> But at some point, the creator got a serious dose of grownup-edness,
>> feminism and anti-sex&drugs&rock-n-roll. The strip became a lot deeper
>> and complex, but also became much more Anvilicious and significantly less
>> fun. It's still well written, and I still read it, but it no longer
>> scratches the 'light romantic comedy' itch.
>>> There are times when I want to 'speak of things that matter, with words which
>> must be said'. There are other times when I just want to goof off. Sinfest
>> no longer is suitable for the latter.
>>> pt
>
> The problem with the old version of Sinfest was that it was a bit
> "gag-a-day" and didn't have any consistent storylines. The curren run has
> a story arc and the characters have show growth and have changed. To me,
> that's much more interesting than Slick trying to get in to Monique's
> pants... Again. And again. And again.
>
> To be honest, if Tatsuya Ishida hadn't changed how he did the comic, it
> would have become dull and repitive, and eventually it would have died.

Funny, "dull and repetitive" is about the best description I can think of
for the "new Sinfest."
I got the message so long ago that the last time I checked there were over
270 new strips
I hadn't read. I burned through them and haven't changed my opinion. I
too miss the old,
Funny strip.

Mike Beede

[D Heine]

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, Brian Henke wrote:
> With the continuing freefall of Apartment 3-G (today's strip had Margo virtually healthy and Tommie saying "Where did who go, Margo?" - seriously) playing out before our very eyes, I have a question.
>
> What comic strips (past or present) completely fell apart during their runs? Did the stories or the artwork go downhill fast? Or was the creator too ill but wanted to go on anyhow despite the strip's decline?
>

> I rememmber the second-to-last all-new daily Peanuts strip looking unlike the Peanuts we all know and love. I know that Sparky's health was deteroriating, but it was a sad way to end the strip.
>
> Wee Pals deteriorated sharply before Morrie Turner died last year. It looked like some eleven-year-old was doing it (off-model characters, etc.)
>
I can think of a few other strips that went downhill to me:
* Barney Google and Snuffy Smith (Circa 1979 to early 2000's the strip was using poor word balloon quality).
* Broom Hilda (Mostly in the 1990's this strip was also using poor word balloon quality in occassion similar to Barney Google and Snuffy Smith at the time).

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <5a9d49c9-4647-4374...@googlegroups.com>,

I think BH went downhill after he dropped Greebler, the insult beast.
Old BH collections are actually pretty funny. (And often take place in a kind
of surreal shifting landscape).
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[D Heine]

What did Greebler the insult beast look like?

I can also think of another strip that went totally downhill for a time: The Nancy comic strip. After Ernie Bushmiller passed away in 1982 there have been 3 others trying to be Ernie's successor: Mark Lasky, Al Plastino, and Jerry Scott; Jerry Scott got the permament job to be the new Nancy cartoonist and turned it into a Peanuts clone eliminating some supporting characters and even Aunt Fritzi Ritz but keeping Nancy and Sluggo, in 1995 Guy and Brad Gilchrist took over the Nancy strip and returned it back to the Ernie Bushmiller roots and even bought back Aunt Fritzi Ritz!

[Mark Jackson]

On 11/7/2015 9:18 AM, D Heine wrote:
> What did Greebler the insult beast look like?

A pair of eyes and a mouth inside a dark, hollow log.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <20957b28-f556-4598...@googlegroups.com>,

We don't know exactly. He lived in a hollow log, and all we
ever saw were his eyes. We can infer from one sequence with
BH pretending to be a female Greebler that the whole species
is pretty ugly.

[D.D.Degg]

> > What did Greebler the insult beast look like?
>
> A pair of eyes and a mouth inside a dark, hollow log.

https://weirdspace.dk/RussellMyers/Grelber.htm