Retail, 04/27/08

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Peter B. Steiger

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Apr 27, 2008, 6:43:43 PM4/27/08
to
I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit cards.
And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly started
making scary groaning noises this weekend.

--
Peter B. Steiger
Cheyenne, WY
If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes where
you see stars: wypbs.**1 at gmail.com (yes, that's a new address)

Paige

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Apr 27, 2008, 9:18:39 PM4/27/08
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On Apr 27, 4:43 pm, "Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address>
wrote:

We don't have credit card debt. We always pay them off in full every
month (we only have two cards; one for me and one for hubby). We're
using our refund for my IRA payment. I was laid off from my job last
year and money is tight. You won't see me spending it on a shopping
spree.

BTW: It's Marla.
:-)
Paige

Message has been deleted

cbrubaker

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Apr 27, 2008, 11:41:10 PM4/27/08
to
On Apr 27, 5:43 pm, "Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address>
wrote:

Geez, it's bad enough that Marla's asshole district manager gets her
name wrong, don't you think? ;-)

Peter B. Steiger

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Apr 28, 2008, 12:23:20 AM4/28/08
to
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:18:39 -0700, Paige sez:
> BTW: It's Marla.

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:40:10 -0700, cbrubaker sez:
> Geez, it's bad enough that Marla's asshole D.A. gets her
> name wrong, don't ya' think?

I thought about writing it as "Darla", but then I thought folks would
think I just unintentionally got it wrong. So I used something that
would so OBVIOUSLY be a clever reference to the way the district manager
mangles her name, and people still think I'm just mistaken.

Hmmmph. Obviously my brilliant wit is too subtle for this crowd.

Lothar Frings

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Apr 28, 2008, 5:57:15 AM4/28/08
to
Peter B. Steiger wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:18:39 -0700, Paige sez:

> > Geez, it's bad enough that Marla's asshole D.A. gets her
> > name wrong, don't ya' think?
>
> I thought about writing it as "Darla", but then I thought folks would
> think I just unintentionally got it wrong.  So I used something that
> would so OBVIOUSLY be a clever reference to the way the district manager
> mangles her name, and people still think I'm just mistaken.

Maybe part of the tax refund should go into
irony detector updates, or new batteries.

Bobcat

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Apr 28, 2008, 6:01:12 AM4/28/08
to
On Apr 28, 12:23 am, "Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address>
wrote:

> Hmmmph.  Obviously my brilliant wit is too subtle for this crowd.

We took up a collection and bought you a magazine subscription. <g>

http://www.snobmagazine.com/

Rob Wynne

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Apr 28, 2008, 12:22:22 PM4/28/08
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Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
> I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit cards.
> And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly started
> making scary groaning noises this weekend.
>

I'm going to spend mine lavishly, but towards something I was planning to
buy anyway.

--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2008: Jan 11-13, 2008 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/

Bill Marcum

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Apr 28, 2008, 1:06:35 PM4/28/08
to
On 2008-04-28, Rob Wynne <d...@america.net> wrote:
>
>
> Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
>> I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit cards.
>> And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly started
>> making scary groaning noises this weekend.
>>
>
> I'm going to spend mine lavishly, but towards something I was planning to
> buy anyway.
>
A tank of gas?

Rob Wynne

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Apr 28, 2008, 3:13:26 PM4/28/08
to

POTY nominee.

(Actually, I'm planning on buying a new TV. But, as I said, I was already
budgeting for it anyway.)

Sherwood Harrington

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Apr 28, 2008, 3:35:05 PM4/28/08
to
Rob Wynne <d...@america.net> wrote:
> Bill Marcum <marcu...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> On 2008-04-28, Rob Wynne <d...@america.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
>>>> I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit cards.
>>>> And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly started
>>>> making scary groaning noises this weekend.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm going to spend mine lavishly, but towards something I was planning to
>>> buy anyway.
>>>
>> A tank of gas?

> POTY nominee.

> (Actually, I'm planning on buying a new TV. But, as I said, I was already
> budgeting for it anyway.)

I actually *am* planning to use it to help offset the price of gasoline
and propane over the next year. Not a joke.

--
Sherwood Harrington
Boulder Creek, California

Rob Wynne

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Apr 28, 2008, 5:05:20 PM4/28/08
to

I moved to a new apartment last summer that is within easy walking distance
of my office. If it comes down it, I can cut down on my gasoline
consumption to a tremendous degree.

Dann

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Apr 28, 2008, 8:53:11 PM4/28/08
to
On 28 Apr 2008, Rob Wynne said the following in
news:2RmRj.425$v91....@eagle.america.net.

> Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
>> I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit cards.
>> And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly
>> started making scary groaning noises this weekend.
>>
>
> I'm going to spend mine lavishly, but towards something I was planning
> to buy anyway.
>

I'm still thinking about it, but I might get one of those new fangled
Kindle contraptions that the folks at Amazon keep hawking.

--
Regards,
Dann

blogging at http://web.newsguy.com/dainbramage/blog.htm

Freedom works; each and every time it is tried.

Rob Wynne

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Apr 28, 2008, 10:34:38 PM4/28/08
to
Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Apr 2008, Rob Wynne said the following in
> news:2RmRj.425$v91....@eagle.america.net.
>
>> Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
>>> I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit cards.
>>> And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly
>>> started making scary groaning noises this weekend.
>>>
>>
>> I'm going to spend mine lavishly, but towards something I was planning
>> to buy anyway.
>>
>
> I'm still thinking about it, but I might get one of those new fangled
> Kindle contraptions that the folks at Amazon keep hawking.
>

A friend of mine just bought one of those, if you'd like to see her
reactions to it:

http://catsittingstill.livejournal.com/73563.html

Dann

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Apr 29, 2008, 7:20:46 AM4/29/08
to
On 28 Apr 2008, Rob Wynne said the following in
news:2PvRj.431$v91....@eagle.america.net.

> Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28 Apr 2008, Rob Wynne said the following in
>> news:2RmRj.425$v91....@eagle.america.net.
>>
>>> Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
>>>> I'm with Barla - our refund will totally go to pay down credit
>>>> cards.
>>>> And maybe a new PC case, since the power supply on mine suddenly
>>>> started making scary groaning noises this weekend.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm going to spend mine lavishly, but towards something I was
>>> planning to buy anyway.
>>>
>>
>> I'm still thinking about it, but I might get one of those new fangled
>> Kindle contraptions that the folks at Amazon keep hawking.
>>
>
> A friend of mine just bought one of those, if you'd like to see her
> reactions to it:
>
> http://catsittingstill.livejournal.com/73563.html
>

Thanks!!

Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
come out in trade paperbacks.

Peter B. Steiger

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Apr 29, 2008, 11:01:08 AM4/29/08
to
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:20:46 +0000, Dann sez:
> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
> otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
> come out in trade paperbacks.

So they've abolished libraries in your part of the world?

James Nicoll

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Apr 29, 2008, 11:14:11 AM4/29/08
to
In article <fv7d7k$l8o$2...@aioe.org>,

Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:20:46 +0000, Dann sez:
>> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
>> otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
>> come out in trade paperbacks.
>
>So they've abolished libraries in your part of the world?
>
Libraries generally can only afford a limited range of
the books that come out each year and have to spend their funds
according to several conflicting sets of criteria.

`


--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

James Nicoll

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Apr 29, 2008, 11:16:56 AM4/29/08
to
In article <Xns9A8F4AD928176d...@64.209.0.81>,

Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
>otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
>come out in trade paperbacks.
>
Casts "detect preferences".

I'm going to assume you know about the Baen Free Library but
did you know about this:


http://www.tor.com/

Default User

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Apr 29, 2008, 2:58:52 PM4/29/08
to
James Nicoll wrote:

> In article <fv7d7k$l8o$2...@aioe.org>,
> Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:
> > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:20:46 +0000, Dann sez:
> >> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books
> that I'd >> otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by
> the time they >> come out in trade paperbacks.
> >
> > So they've abolished libraries in your part of the world?
> >
> Libraries generally can only afford a limited range of
> the books that come out each year and have to spend their funds
> according to several conflicting sets of criteria.

I've had good luck in finding recent SF in my local public library. The
majority of titles mentioned on rec.arts.sf.written are available. Mine
is a large county library system though, so they have more resources.
However, almost any library can get items through inter-library loan.


Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Dann

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Apr 29, 2008, 8:30:56 PM4/29/08
to
On 29 Apr 2008, Peter B. Steiger said the following in
news:fv7d7k$l8o$2...@aioe.org.

> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:20:46 +0000, Dann sez:
>> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that
>> I'd otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time
>> they come out in trade paperbacks.
>
> So they've abolished libraries in your part of the world?
>

No, but those places always want their books back in unreasonable
amounts of time. Sometimes it takes more than a few weeks to wedge in
some serious reading amidst quilting and warring and comic strips and
kvetching and....you get the point.

Dann

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Apr 29, 2008, 8:33:26 PM4/29/08
to
On 29 Apr 2008, James Nicoll said the following in news:fv7e58$e99$1
@reader2.panix.com.

> In article <Xns9A8F4AD928176d...@64.209.0.81>,
> Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
>>otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
>>come out in trade paperbacks.
>>
> Casts "detect preferences".
>
> I'm going to assume you know about the Baen Free Library but
> did you know about this:
>
>
> http://www.tor.com/
>
>

Very cool and thanks much. One of the reasons why I'm considering the
Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out there.

Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian literature
these days than I am SF/F.

I just can't figure out if it is pronounced Fi-yo-door, Fee-yo-door, or
F'yoder.

Mike Beede

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Apr 29, 2008, 9:23:55 PM4/29/08
to
In article <Xns9A8FD13D28F4Ed...@64.209.0.81>,
Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I just can't figure out if it is pronounced Fi-yo-door, Fee-yo-door, or
> F'yoder.

I understand it's pronounced "Fudd." Lot's of people that never
read Russian never really got the reference, but luckily they could
still enjoy the slapstick and the funny accent.

Mike Beede

racs...@gmail.com

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Apr 29, 2008, 10:11:31 PM4/29/08
to
On Apr 29, 8:33 pm, Dann <detox...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Very cool and thanks much.  One of the reasons why I'm considering the
> Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out there.
>
> Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian literature
> these days than I am SF/F.
>
> I just can't figure out if it is pronounced Fi-yo-door, Fee-yo-door, or
> F'yoder.

Dude, that name's just on the cover and about page three.

Keep going. There are more names inside.

Fyodor Wardovich Kleverov
Mayfield, Byelorusse

James Nicoll

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Apr 29, 2008, 11:33:48 PM4/29/08
to
>On 29 Apr 2008, James Nicoll said the following in news:fv7e58$e99$1
>@reader2.panix.com.
>
>> In article <Xns9A8F4AD928176d...@64.209.0.81>,
>> Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
>>>otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
>>>come out in trade paperbacks.
>>>
>> Casts "detect preferences".
>>
>> I'm going to assume you know about the Baen Free Library but
>> did you know about this:
>>
>>
>> http://www.tor.com/
>>
>>
>
>Very cool and thanks much. One of the reasons why I'm considering the
>Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out there.
>
>Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian literature
>these days than I am SF/F.

I wonder if Project Gutenberg does stuff in Russian?

I thought Levitsky's WORLDS APART was pretty interesting
and I read under somehat adverse circumstances (Waiting for a
coroner to show up and then for him to finish so I could make sure
everything was locked up correctly. I picked a long book because
I know it takes a while).

Mike Beede

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Apr 30, 2008, 12:44:14 AM4/30/08
to
In article <fv8pas$i87$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <Xns9A8FD13D28F4Ed...@64.209.0.81>,
> Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On 29 Apr 2008, James Nicoll said the following in news:fv7e58$e99$1
> >@reader2.panix.com.
> >
> >> In article <Xns9A8F4AD928176d...@64.209.0.81>,
> >> Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
> >>>otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
> >>>come out in trade paperbacks.
> >>>
> >> Casts "detect preferences".
> >>
> >> I'm going to assume you know about the Baen Free Library but
> >> did you know about this:
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.tor.com/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Very cool and thanks much. One of the reasons why I'm considering the
> >Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out there.
> >
> >Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian literature
> >these days than I am SF/F.
>
> I wonder if Project Gutenberg does stuff in Russian?

Looks like only 8 works right now:

<http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/languages/ru>

Mike Beede

Dann

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Apr 30, 2008, 7:14:18 AM4/30/08
to
On 29 Apr 2008, pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org said the following in
news:3eaac60f-1841-48c2...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com.

> On Apr 29, 8:33 pm, Dann <detox...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Very cool and thanks much.  One of the reasons why I'm considering
>> the Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out
>> there.
>>
>> Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian
>> literature these days than I am SF/F.
>>
>> I just can't figure out if it is pronounced Fi-yo-door, Fee-yo-door,
>> or F'yoder.
>
> Dude, that name's just on the cover and about page three.

Sure...but it bugs me at 3 AM.

> Keep going. There are more names inside.

You ain't just whistling Dixie! They all have three names. Some of
which they use, some of which they don't, some they shorten, some they
don't, and then there are nicknames!

It's almost enough to make me want to read "Starship Troopers" for the
nth+1 time.

Dann

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Apr 30, 2008, 7:24:11 AM4/30/08
to
On 29 Apr 2008, Mike Beede said the following in
news:beede-045EC2....@news.visi.com.


They have 7 of Dostoevsky's [or Dostoyevsky, somebody pick one] in
English. Which sadly is the only way I'm going to read them in the short
term.

There appears to be more here by other authors, but I'm smart enough to
know that I don't know which are Russian and which are not.

http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/loccs/pg

Default User

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Apr 30, 2008, 2:30:00 PM4/30/08
to
Dann wrote:

> On 29 Apr 2008, Peter B. Steiger said the following in
> news:fv7d7k$l8o$2...@aioe.org.
>
> > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:20:46 +0000, Dann sez:
> >> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that
> >> I'd otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the
> time >> they come out in trade paperbacks.
> >
> > So they've abolished libraries in your part of the world?
> >
>
> No, but those places always want their books back in unreasonable
> amounts of time. Sometimes it takes more than a few weeks to wedge in
> some serious reading amidst quilting and warring and comic strips and
> kvetching and....you get the point.

For me, that depends on the popularity of the book. My library allows
to renew (online) a book that has not been requested by anyone else, up
to three renewals. That's eight weeks total.

Sherwood Harrington

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Apr 30, 2008, 3:04:30 PM4/30/08
to
Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> For me, that depends on the popularity of the book. My library allows
> to renew (online) a book that has not been requested by anyone else, up
> to three renewals. That's eight weeks total.

Most books are longer than eight pages, though, aren't they?

--
Sherwood Harrington
Moving his lips in
Boulder Creek, California

Peter B. Steiger

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Apr 30, 2008, 3:15:40 PM4/30/08
to
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:04:30 +0000, Sherwood Harrington sez:

(after Default User wrote)


>> My library allows to renew (online) a book that has not been
>> requested by anyone else, up to three renewals. That's eight
>> weeks total.

> Most books are longer than eight pages, though, aren't they?

He shoots... he scores!

Default User

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Apr 30, 2008, 4:14:48 PM4/30/08
to
Sherwood Harrington wrote:

> Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > For me, that depends on the popularity of the book. My library
> > allows to renew (online) a book that has not been requested by
> > anyone else, up to three renewals. That's eight weeks total.
>
> Most books are longer than eight pages, though, aren't they?

If you're only reading a page a week, it's probably hard to remember
what you've already read. You could just get one book and start over
when you reach the end every three-four years.

nickelshrink

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Apr 30, 2008, 4:53:59 PM4/30/08
to
Dann wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2008, James Nicoll said the following in news:fv7e58$e99$1
> @reader2.panix.com.
>
>> In article <Xns9A8F4AD928176d...@64.209.0.81>,
>> Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd
>>> otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they
>>> come out in trade paperbacks.
>>>
>> Casts "detect preferences".
>>
>> I'm going to assume you know about the Baen Free Library but
>> did you know about this:
>>
>>
>> http://www.tor.com/
>>
>>
>
> Very cool and thanks much. One of the reasons why I'm considering the
> Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out there.
>
> Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian literature
> these days than I am SF/F.
>
> I just can't figure out if it is pronounced Fi-yo-door, Fee-yo-door, or
> F'yoder.
>


http://bp2.blogger.com/_OZ80SreyTpA/SBjbeDoAlJI/AAAAAAAAAjo/1tp_cVL86vs/s1600-h/pnutskaramazov.JPG

--
pax,
ruth
Byeclyfnotesengrad


Save trees AND money! Buy used books!
http://stores.ebay.com/Noir-and-More-Books-and-Trains

Dann

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Apr 30, 2008, 11:22:11 PM4/30/08
to
On 30 Apr 2008, nickelshrink said the following in
news:67s4j7F...@mid.individual.net.

> Dann wrote:

>>
>> Very cool and thanks much. One of the reasons why I'm considering
>> the Kindle is because of all the free electronic books that are out
>> there.
>>
>> Although, to be honest, I'm reading more 19th century Russian
>> literature these days than I am SF/F.
>>
>> I just can't figure out if it is pronounced Fi-yo-door, Fee-yo-door,
>> or F'yoder.
>>
>
>
> http://bp2.blogger.com/_OZ80SreyTpA/SBjbeDoAlJI/AAAAAAAAAjo/1tp_cVL86vs
> /s1600-h/pnutskaramazov.JPG
>

I only wish it was that easy. Pretty soon, you start bleeping enough
that all the bleeping names bleeping run together. Kind of bleeping hard
to keep the bleeping plot straight when every character has the same
bleeping name.

<grin>

Cindy Kandolf

unread,
May 1, 2008, 3:05:54 AM5/1/08
to
Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> writes:
> You ain't just whistling Dixie! They all have three names. Some of
> which they use, some of which they don't, some they shorten, some they
> don't, and then there are nicknames!

This is based on 20 year old memories from Rrrrussian class, but I
believe it's reasonably accurate:

Every Russian has three names. A given name (e.g. Ivan), which is just
like a given name anywhere else in the world; a patronymic, which is
based on the person's father's name plus a suffix meaning daughter or
son (e.g. Ivanovich, "son of Ivan"); and a family name or surname,
which is almost the same as anywhere else with the surname tradition,
except that women's surnames are always inflected so they end in -a,
the ending for the female gender in Russian (e.g. Ivanov for men,
Ivanova for women).

So let's look at our friend Ivan Ivanovich Ivanova.

If you don't know him well, say he's a neighbor or a workmate with
whom you don't socialize much, you'll call him by first name and
patronymic: Ivan Ivanovich.

If he's a friend, you'll call him by a familiar form of his given
name. Never Ivan, but perhaps Vanya.

Every Russian kid gets called by a sickly-sweet familiar form of his
or her given name, at least within the family, until old enough to
fight back and sometimes beyond. So if he's your son, brother, or
other close relative, you might call him something like Vanochka,
especially when he's very young.

He will only be called by his full name, either Ivan Ivanov or more
likely Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov, in an official situation, such as in
court. You might however refer to him by all three names in the third
person, if you want to make sure the person you're talking to
understands exactly which Ivan Ivanovich you mean, or if you're
introducing him to someone.

Official figures might be referred to by first name and surname, but
not necessarily. Boris Yeltsin was apparently usually called "Boris
Nikolaevich" in newspapers and on television, for instance.

While we're speaking of public figures, one of my irration pet peeves
is hearing the late wife of the last leader of the (late) Soviet Union
referred to as "Raisa Gorbachev". It should have been Raisa
Gorbacheva.

Finally, there are several standard ways of transliterating Cyrillic
to Roman letters, none of which are perfect. "Gorbachev", for
instance, could also be written "Gorbachyov". So don't be surprised if
you see the same name spelled two different ways in two different
translations, though they *should* be consistent within the same book,
or the translator should be shot.

And now you understand a little more of why I decided two semesters of
Russian was all I could take.

- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
flodmail: ci...@nethelp.no flodhome: Bærum, Norway
flodweb: http://www.flodnak.com/

racs...@gmail.com

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May 1, 2008, 5:35:18 AM5/1/08
to
On May 1, 3:05 am, Cindy Kandolf <ci...@bizet.nethelp.no> wrote:

> While we're speaking of public figures, one of my irration pet peeves
> is hearing the late wife of the last leader of the (late) Soviet Union
> referred to as "Raisa Gorbachev". It should have been Raisa
> Gorbacheva.

That cuts both ways -- Anna Karenina's husband's last name is
generally translated Karenina but should be Karenin. The novel just
became too well known by the proper (that is, correct) name of the
character, so her husband must conform in translation. And you're
right: It's wrong. I find it more improper when the woman is known on
her own than when she is a spouse.

I think it has a lot to do with transliteration: Icelandic names are
patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end
of a woman's name with -son. I suspect if Russian names were initially
written in western script, the -a would be more commonly left alone.

I think a lot of translators of novels let the male and female family
names be the same in order to avoid more confusion. In "War and
Peace," it's easier to let all the Rostovs remain Rostovs rather than
have siblings Nicholai Ilyanovich Rostov and Natalya Ilyanovna Rostova
appear to be unrelated. And I believe that Natalya Ilyanovna is called
"Natasha" throughout the book in order to distinguish her from her
mother, for whom she was named and who, on the rare occasions she
isn't called "Countess Rostov" is Natalya.

Nicholai, who joins the army at the beginning of the book, is only
rarely called "Nikolenka" and then only by his sister in affectionate
moments. However, their little brother, Pyotr, is always "Petya" --
but anyone who has made it to the end of the book will understand why
it was important for him to retain his childish nickname throughout,
even though he is 16 or 17 by the climax of the story. But Prince
Andrei's son Nicholai is refered to exclusively (at least in the
translations I've read) as "Nikolenka" throughout, because he is still
a very small child at the end of the war.

The confusing thing for me the first time through that book was that
Tolstoy has a family called "Kuragin" and another called "Karagin."
They have nothing in common except enough position within society that
they share a lot of mutual acquaintances -- Anatole Kuragin is a
dandy, a rake and a truly despicable SOB, while Julie Karagin(a) is
something of a priss: a good-hearted but rather vapid and unattractive
woman. I can only assume that the names are far more distinct from
each other in Russian -- perhaps as Jones and Johnson would be in
English. Otherwise, it seems like a poor choice on Tolstoy's part
because there are some adult siblings in the story and they most
decidedly are not related.

Of course, the real problem is that, when Tolstoy died, they took down
his website. It was all explained in the letters.

Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com

Dann

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May 1, 2008, 7:54:35 AM5/1/08
to
On 01 May 2008, pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org said the following in
news:1456a034-e767-42e6...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com.

> On May 1, 3:05 am, Cindy Kandolf <ci...@bizet.nethelp.no> wrote:
>
>> While we're speaking of public figures, one of my irration pet peeves
>> is hearing the late wife of the last leader of the (late) Soviet Union
>> referred to as "Raisa Gorbachev". It should have been Raisa
>> Gorbacheva.

Many thanks to Cindy for the [much longer] explanation.

> I think it has a lot to do with transliteration: Icelandic names are
> patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end
> of a woman's name with -son. I suspect if Russian names were initially
> written in western script, the -a would be more commonly left alone.

My copy of "On the Eve" had a list of character names at the beginning of
the book. My copy of "Devils" [Oxford World's Classics - trans by Michael
R. Katz] has footnotes that explain some of the more obsure references made
in the book. They have increased my appreciation of the book immensely.

On a side note, Mr. Katz must have thought that the French socialist
[François Marie Charles] Fourier was well enough known that there was no
need to explain who he was within that footnote. Not to be confused with
French mathematician [Jean Baptiste Joseph] Fourier who's work I have a
modest familiarity.

> Of course, the real problem is that, when Tolstoy died, they took down
> his website. It was all explained in the letters.
>

<chuckle>

None of which explains how the heck do you pronounce Fyodor!!

This place suggests that it should be "FYUU-dur", but the mp3 file sounds a
little more like "Fee-yu-door" to my untrained ear.

http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/d417/Fyodor_Mikhailovich_Dostoevsky

racs...@gmail.com

unread,
May 1, 2008, 12:47:06 PM5/1/08
to
On May 1, 7:54 am, Dann <detox...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> My copy of "Devils" [Oxford World's Classics - trans by Michael
> R. Katz] has footnotes that explain some of the more obsure references made
> in the book.  They have increased my appreciation of the book immensely.

You'll notice that nobody refers to those two charming little fellows
as "Petya" and "Nikolenka."

>
> This place suggests that it should be "FYUU-dur", but the mp3 file sounds a
> little more like "Fee-yu-door" to my untrained ear.
>

I've always kind of changed the "Th" in Theodore to an "F," sped up
the initial two syllables into one (Fee-O) and then pronounced it with
a Russian accent.

Actually, what I' ve REALLY always done is just referred to him as
"Dostoevsky." It's not like I have to differentiate him from Oliver
Wendall Doestoevsky who served in the Duma.

Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com

Peter B. Steiger

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May 1, 2008, 2:29:06 PM5/1/08
to
On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:

> Icelandic names are
> patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end
> of a woman's name with -son.

Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries
Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's
daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his
name.

Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.

Neil Robinson

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May 1, 2008, 2:43:44 PM5/1/08
to
On Thu, 1 May 2008, Peter B. Steiger wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:
>
>> Icelandic names are
>> patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end
>> of a woman's name with -son.
>
> Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries
> Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's
> daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his
> name.
>
> Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.

As I understand Icelandic names, that doesn't happen. She would just be
Helga [herfather]sdottir married to Snorri Heimdallsson.

I once met a woman who immigrated to the US as a child, and the
immigration officer didn't like that they all had different last names
(not really last names, you understand, but it sure looks like that), so
they all ended up with their father's patronym as their last name.

Neil Robinson, who suspects he'd have to go back a number of generations
before he found a Robin, much less the Robin.

Blinky the Wonder Wombat

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May 1, 2008, 4:00:07 PM5/1/08
to

You mean Robin from the 'Hood?

Sadly, like many with Western Eurpoean roots, the etymology of my
surname is equally as dull.

Peter B. Steiger

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May 1, 2008, 4:08:32 PM5/1/08
to
On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:00:07 -0700, Blinky the Wonder Wombat sez:
> Sadly, like many with Western Eurpoean roots, the etymology of my
> surname is equally as dull.

How many Wombats could there have been???

My daughter got a kick out of the fact that in her acting class, she
(with a last name that means "climber" in German) ended up partnered with
someone named Sierra ("mountain range" in Spanish, of course)

Cindy Kandolf

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May 1, 2008, 4:15:18 PM5/1/08
to
"Peter B. Steiger" <see...@for.email.address> writes:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:
> > Icelandic names are
> > patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end
> > of a woman's name with -son.
>
> Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries
> Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's
> daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his
> name.
>
> Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.

She wouldn't, is the thing. Icelanders use a first name and
patronymic, and keep them all their lives. Women have never changed
their patronymic upon marrying. Most Icelanders don't have a surname,
and the patronymic does not function as one. When names are
alphabetized, for example, they get sorted by given name.

This used to be the practice all over Scandinavia, by the way, but the
mainlanders gradually picked up the habit of surnames. Sometimes they
simply "froze" the patronymic at one particular generation, which is
where all the -son and -sen names come from. More often they adopted
the name of the family farm or other home as a surname.

(Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders
have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)

cryptoguy

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May 1, 2008, 4:54:20 PM5/1/08
to
On May 1, 4:00 pm, Blinky the Wonder Wombat
> surname is equally as dull.- Hide quoted text -

My last name is Estonian, which I guess is Western European,
and there's a long and frankly improbable story of its origin.

Peter Trei

Peter B. Steiger

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May 1, 2008, 5:09:10 PM5/1/08
to
On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez:
> (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders
> have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)

I knew the former, not the latter. I used the matronymic deliberately
thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the
daughter of her mother.

Maybe the naming conventions in THX-1138 *are* more sensible.

Sherwood Harrington

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May 1, 2008, 5:29:46 PM5/1/08
to
Peter B. Steiger <see...@for.email.address> wrote:

> My daughter got a kick out of the fact that in her acting class, she
> (with a last name that means "climber" in German) ended up partnered with
> someone named Sierra ("mountain range" in Spanish, of course)

The late Herb Caen, storied gossip columnist for the San Francisco
_Chronicle_, would occasionally run items like that under the rubric
"Namephreaks." One of the very few times I was mentioned in his column
was for sending in the names of our department assistants in the late
'70's: Gabe Strain and Charlie Paine.

Serendipity: the surnames were absolutely appropriate.

--
Sherwood Harrington
Boulder Creek, California

George W Harris

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May 1, 2008, 10:38:09 PM5/1/08
to
On Thu, 1 May 2008 13:54:20 -0700 (PDT), cryptoguy
<treif...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>My last name is Estonian, which I guess is Western European,
>and there's a long and frankly improbable story of its origin.

Geographically, but linguistically it's Finno-Urgic,
and non-Indo-European.
>
>Peter Trei
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

Cindy Kandolf

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May 2, 2008, 3:13:02 AM5/2/08
to
"Peter B. Steiger" <see...@for.email.address> writes:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez:
> > (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders
> > have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
>
> I knew the former, not the latter. I used the matronymic deliberately
> thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the
> daughter of her mother.

Nope. It might help to remember that this is not a modern invention,
but a centuries-old tradition. Of COURSE it's sexist.

The two Icelanders I've met with matronymics have coincidentally both
been men. I didn't know either of them well enough to ask why their
parents had gone against tradition...

sigvaldi

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May 2, 2008, 6:05:08 AM5/2/08
to
On May 2, 7:13 am, Cindy Kandolf <ci...@bizet.nethelp.no> wrote:

> "Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address> writes:
>
> > On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez:
> > > (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders
> > > have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
>
> > I knew the former, not the latter.  I used the matronymic deliberately
> > thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the
> > daughter of her mother.
>
> Nope. It might help to remember that this is not a modern invention,
> but a centuries-old tradition. Of COURSE it's sexist.
>
> The two Icelanders I've met with matronymics have coincidentally both
> been men. I didn't know either of them well enough to ask why their
> parents had gone against tradition...

Matronymics are part of the tradition as well, they are used when
there was little or no contact with the father (if the father did not
want to participate in the raising of the child, the mother might
choose give the baby her name instead)
and you can change your last name yourself when you reach 18.

racs...@gmail.com

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May 2, 2008, 7:50:22 AM5/2/08
to

The original tradition is less sexist than patriarchal, in any case. A
community has a pretty good sense of who the mother is because, well,
there were usually a few witnesses. But, as the old saying goes, "It's
a wise child who knows his father." The name helps. In modern times,
this latter situation is not only less shameful but less predictive of
poverty.

Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com

Blinky the Wonder Wombat

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May 2, 2008, 9:19:17 AM5/2/08
to
On May 2, 7:50 am, "peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org" <racss...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> The original tradition is less sexist than patriarchal, in any case. A
> community has a pretty good sense of who the mother is because, well,
> there were usually a few witnesses. But, as the old saying goes, "It's
> a wise child who knows his father." The name helps. In modern times,
> this latter situation is not only less shameful but less predictive of
> poverty.
>

Don't know about Scandanavia (Iceland is considered a part of
Scandanavia, right?), but in America, children of never-married
mothers have a very high probability of living in poverty (about six
times greater than those of children with married motheers)

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov05/child.poverty.ssl.html

Maybe it's going down, but a povety rate of over 50% is still pretty
predictive.

sigvaldi

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May 2, 2008, 1:55:05 PM5/2/08
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On May 2, 1:19 pm, Blinky the Wonder Wombat

<wkharrisjr_i...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 2, 7:50 am, "peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org" <racss...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The original tradition is less sexist than patriarchal, in any case. A
> > community has a pretty good sense of who the mother is because, well,
> > there were usually a few witnesses. But, as the old saying goes, "It's
> > a wise child who knows his father." The name helps. In modern times,
> > this latter situation is not only less shameful but less predictive of
> > poverty.
>
> Don't know about Scandanavia (Icelandis considered a part of

> Scandanavia, right?), but in America, children of never-married
> mothers have a very high probability of living in poverty (about six
> times greater than those of children with married motheers)

Iceland is not in Scandinavia (Scandinavia is to the east of the UK,
Iceland is to the North-west.)
65% of Icelanders are born out of wedlock but that does not mean that
their parents are not going to marry at a later date.
Iceland and Scandinavia have developed a welfare system to prevent
poverty among single parents among others.

> http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov05/child.poverty.ssl.html
>
> Maybe it's going down, but a povety rate of over 50% is still pretty
> predictive.

This is the USA that you are talking about there, not Scandinavia nor
Iceland.

sigvaldi

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May 2, 2008, 1:58:53 PM5/2/08
to
On May 2, 11:50 am, "peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org" <racss...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The community knows who the parents are because it is written in the
church records, the naming traditions have got nothing to do with
shame or poverty.

Blinky the Wonder Wombat

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May 2, 2008, 2:53:57 PM5/2/08
to
On May 2, 1:55 pm, sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is> wrote:

>
> Iceland is not in Scandinavia (Scandinavia is to the east of the UK,
> Iceland is to the North-west.)


I was never sure if Iceland was considered part of Scandanavia since
its peoples are of Norse decent, like, for the most part, the Swedes,
Danish, and Noregieans. I do know that Finland is not considered part
of Scandanavia.

> 65% of Icelanders are born out of wedlock but that does not mean that
> their parents are not going to marry at a later date.
> Iceland and Scandinavia have developed a welfare system to prevent
> poverty among single parents among others.
>
> >http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov05/child.poverty.ssl.html
>
> > Maybe it's going down, but a povety rate of over 50% is still pretty
> > predictive.
>
> This is the USA that you are talking about there, not Scandinavia nor
> Iceland.

Yep, which is why I prefaced with my comment on Mike's posting with
the statement "Don't know about Scandanavia... but in America..."

sigvaldi

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May 2, 2008, 3:47:54 PM5/2/08
to
On May 2, 6:53 pm, Blinky the Wonder Wombat

<wkharrisjr_i...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 2, 1:55 pm,sigvaldi<sigv...@binet.is> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Icelandis not in Scandinavia (Scandinavia is to the east of the UK,
> >Icelandis to the North-west.)
>
> I was never sure ifIcelandwas considered part of Scandanavia since

> its peoples are of Norse decent, like, for the most part, the Swedes,
> Danish, and Noregieans.

Icelanders are of mixed Norse/Celtic descent, with the Celtic part
more predominant (dark hair, brown eyes etc).
The Icelandic language is basically a modern version of Old Norse,
with some Celtic influences, Icelanders are able to read the Sagas
written 800-900 years ago.

Blinky the Wonder Wombat

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May 2, 2008, 5:00:23 PM5/2/08
to

Kids, you can find out more about Iceland on the internet.

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