Frank Cho's Uncensored Strips at sunnyfundays.com
Allan Gross
probably know, many of Frank's strips do not reach the public in their
original form.
If you'd like to see them as they were created, go to the Insight
Studios comic
strip page at:
al (the liberty meadows bartender and writer of the united media tarzan
sunday)
P.S. If you have a desire to read an adventure strip, please check out
the preview
of my "Doctor Cyborg", which begins on June 5th. Art by Mike Oeming.
nancy g.
> As readers of the Liberty Meadows comic book, newsletter and
> comic strip probably know, many of Frank's strips do not reach
> the public in their original form.
>
> If you'd like to see them as they were created, go to the Insight
> Studios comic strip page at:
>
> http://www.sunnyfundays.com
Apparently young Mr. Cho is still confusing the concept of
"censoring" with the concept of "editing".
I'd guess the editors had him change some of these strips
because they were offensive, stoopid, or just plain NOT FUNNY.
That's hardly censorship. That's maintaining good editorial
standards. That's the syndicate doing its job -- the syndicate
that Mr. Cho presumably *wanted* to work for when they agreed
to accept his strip in the first place.
I can't find the words to express how rapidly I'm losing
whatever admiration I had for Frank Cho. I don't care *how*
well the guy can draw -- he's a one-trick pony, and his trick
is getting tired real fast.
My two cents.
HPrill
>because they were offensive, stoopid, or just plain NOT FUNNY.
>That's hardly censorship.
That's only partly true--they did, for example, make him change his "date with
Cathy" storyline. But they have also done things that are simply interfering
(ie., telling him that his female characters can't be too busty).
son m mu
>
> I can't find the words to express how rapidly I'm losing
> whatever admiration I had for Frank Cho. I don't care *how*
> well the guy can draw -- he's a one-trick pony, and his trick
> is getting tired real fast.
I'd have to question whether the art of the strip really merits much
attention, either.
Take a look at the latest strip available on-line as of today (dated May
29) at http://www.creators.com/comics/lib/
The 3 panels are nearly identical. Brandy's expression changes only by
slight change in the mouth, nothing in the eyes or posture. Frank's
changes only by the number of sweat beads and a slight change in the
mouth in panel 3.
It's as though Cho has drawn it the strip by running the first panel
through a Canon Copier and then adding slight modifications.
The strip is essentially dead. There is no change in perspective.
Frank and Brandy are always drawn in pure profile. It's dominated by
expressionless, motionless characters. How can two people converse with
*no* change in posture? It's as though they're robotic cousins of Al
Gore!
The one bit of movement comes from the bear, but his "wackiness" gets
undercut because he's moving against a backdrop of people who don't
react to him it all. They may as well be furniture.
It's not an atypical example of Liberty Meadows, either. Of the
multi-panel comics, only Garfield seems to use this type of Xerox-like
repetition through every panel to the degree that Meadows uses it.
What Cho does is more along the lines of draftmanship, not art.
Compared to something like Mutts or Zippy, there doesn't seem to be much
effort by Cho to think about Art 101 basics like composition or
perspective. Heck, even strips like Mark Trail avoid the cookie-cutter
look more often than Liberty Meadows.
Invid Fan
<hpr...@aol.com> wrote:
And we all know breasts are a sign of true art.
"I did bowls of fruit for years... you ever try using ripe breadfruit
to illustrate Man's inability to reach Harmoney with his environment?
It doesn't work. But BREASTS! Breasts work! The first thing people ask
is 'What is this? Breasts?'.... beyond a shadow of a doubt any artist
who is not putting breasts in his paintings is cutting himself off from
eighty percent of the art-consuming public."
-issue 25, Cerebus by Dave Sim
--
Chris Mack "Never let two artists marry! Always push the
'Invid Fan' painter down the well! GRR! I CAN'T FORGET!"
-Quinton, 'Thieves & Kings'
In...@localnet.com
HPrill
You think they're offensive?
Horrible Sorting Hand
> As readers of the Liberty Meadows comic book, newsletter and comic strip
> probably know, many of Frank's strips do not reach the public in their
> original form.
Hm. On the one hand, I still don't find him funny. On the other hand, I
don't see what's offensive about most of those strips. I'd actually be
very curious to see what strips other cartoonists have had rejected, not
because I want the Hot Uncensored Raw Fun, but because I'm wondering how
often writers run into objections they weren't expecting, as opposed to
doing an "edgy" strip (i.e. an ass joke) and getting shot down.
aaron
"I did acid once, and I lost my keys."
- Stephin Merritt
HPrill
>through a Canon Copier and then adding slight modifications.
I've noticed that this is done in Brenda Starr all the time--the exact same
panel is used on several different days, with only different balloons.
son m mu
I realize that my previous post comes off as a bit of a rant, but I
think Cho's cutting corners ties in to the other thread about Cho's
constant harping about Cathy. It's even harder to justify dumping on
Guisewite for the quality of her art when his own stuff settles for the
same shortcuts of Garfield or Brenda Starr.
Invid Fan
<hpr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >And we all know breasts are a sign of true art.
>
> You think they're offensive?
[looks at the Omaha the Cat Dancer art on his wall]
Ah, no.
Andrew Ryan Chang
><hpr...@aol.com> wrote:
>> That's only partly true--they did, for example, make him change his "date with
>> Cathy" storyline. But they have also done things that are simply interfering
>> (ie., telling him that his female characters can't be too busty).
>
What's your point? Was the syndicate was right to ask Cho to
adjust his art in this case, then?
--
"_Entharion the Wise:_ According to earlier, erroneous entries in the
Encyclopedia Frobozzica, Entharion and his legendary blade Grueslayer eradi-
cated grues from the face of the world. Unfortunately for many adventurers,
this is not true." -Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
Czaerana
>slight change in the mouth, nothing in the eyes or posture. Frank's
>changes only by the number of sweat beads and a slight change in the
>mouth in panel 3.
Add to that, it isn't even funny (or very original).
Cynthia
MechaGumby
whatever admiration I had for Frank Cho. I don't care *how*
well the guy can draw -- he's a one-trick pony, and his trick
is getting tired real fast.
Which is a shame, as there don't seem to be that many well drawn strips these
days. Too bad he hasn't linked up with someone who can actually write.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Take a look at the latest strip available on-line as of today (dated May
>29) at http://www.creators.com/comics/lib/
>
>slight change in the mouth, nothing in the eyes or posture. Frank's
>changes only by the number of sweat beads and a slight change in the
>mouth in panel 3.
>It's not an atypical example of Liberty Meadows, either. Of the
>multi-panel comics, only Garfield seems to use this type of Xerox-like
>repetition through every panel to the degree that Meadows uses it.
I think you overstate the case. The May 25 strip shows several
three-quarters views; it's hardly as cookie-cutte as the 29th strip was.
The strip of May 22 breaks from the standard paneling breakdowns entirely.
If you don't like Cho's writing, that's fine, but there's no need
to go inventing reasons to dislike his strip.
[http://www.creators.com/comics/lib/?dateId=959227200] May 25
[http://www.creators.com/comics/lib/?dateId=958968000] May 22
--
Weinstein: Uh, a dog? Isn't that a tad predictable?
Lady: In your dreams. We're talking the original dog from hell.
Oakley: You mean Cerberus?
-- "The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show"
Dave F.
>
> >It's as though Cho has drawn it the strip by running the first panel
> >through a Canon Copier and then adding slight modifications.
>
> I've noticed that this is done in Brenda Starr all the time--the exact same
> panel is used on several different days, with only different balloons.
this is legal.
--
read dave F.'s cartoons:
http://davef.net
son m mu
>
> In article <393BC1...@notmail.com>, son m mu <son...@notmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Take a look at the latest strip available on-line as of today (dated
> > May 29) at http://www.creators.com/comics/lib/
> >
> >The 3 panels are nearly identical. Brandy's expression changes only
> >by slight change in the mouth, nothing in the eyes or posture.
> > Frank's changes only by the number of sweat beads and a slight
> >change in the mouth in panel 3.
>
> >It's not an atypical example of Liberty Meadows, either. Of the
> >multi-panel comics, only Garfield seems to use this type of
> >Xerox-like repetition through every panel to the degree that Meadows
> >uses it.
>
> I think you overstate the case. The May 25 strip shows several
> three-quarters views; it's hardly as cookie-cutte as the 29th strip
> was.
> The strip of May 22 breaks from the standard paneling breakdowns
> entirely.
>
> If you don't like Cho's writing, that's fine, but there's no need
> to go inventing reasons to dislike his strip.
Hmmm. OK. Let's look at the latest strip available today. (May 30th).
3 of the first 4 panels, Brandy's body doesn't move, the pig's body
doesn't move, Brandy's expression changes only slightly in the mouth and
eyes, the Pig's body doesn't move, the Pig's expression doesn't change.
Motion is introduced only by redrawing the arms while leaving the bodies
static. The perspective doesn't change. The composition doesn't
change. The background doesn't change.
By the fourth panel, Brandy moves only slightly, as does the pig.
Keeping everything so static makes the drawing lifeless.
Take a look at the strip of June 5. The bear is supposedly making a
huge effort to squeeze out lighter fluid. But in each panel his body,
his posture, his expression doesn't change at all. And to cap it off,
in the final panel when he's stopped, his body and expression still
haven't changed! The Xerox is still warm.
Comparing Liberty Meadows to something like Pogo is like comparing a
modern cartoon on Fox to Looney Toons. One particular frame of the
modern example may look fine, but strung together you can see all of the
corners that were cut.
The fact is that in comics, as in "fine" art, composition matters.
Imaginitive use of perspective matters. Creating a sense of motion
matters. Maybe Cho only uses the Sharp Copier 3 or 4 times a week, but
every time he does, he undercuts his claims of artistic value.
RJDiogenes
>>
>> >It's as though Cho has drawn it the strip by running the first panel
>> >through a Canon Copier and then adding slight modifications.
>>
>> I've noticed that this is done in Brenda Starr all the time--the exact same
>> panel is used on several different days, with only different balloons.
>
>
>this is legal.
>
>
>
>
True. It's the 'Doonesbury' style. The problem with Liberty Meadows is not the
art (which is so good that I really wanted to like this strip), it's that the
writing is so uninspired.
Dave F.
> If you don't like Cho's writing, that's fine, but there's no need
> to go inventing reasons to dislike his strip.
i've put some thought into this. i think the reason this guy's strip
reeks is that he is an inane twat, like most cartoonists
not that i'm well connected or anything, but a few years back i went to
a private b-day party for a new yorker cartoonist. the apt. was full of
well-known cartoonists and they were all trying too hard to be funny.
it was embarrassing.
<shiver>
--
i dont like my strip this week:
http://davef.net
Dave F.
right. ever see 'red meat'? he repeats panels obstinately, and seems
to pull it off because the writing is often v. good
(except when it's bathroom/sex humor, which bores me senseless)
--
cartoons about shitting, jerking off, and how much cooler i am than
everybody else:
http://davef.net
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Andrew Ryan Chang wrote:
>> If you don't like Cho's writing, that's fine, but there's no need
>> to go inventing reasons to dislike his strip.
>
>i've put some thought into this. i think the reason this guy's strip
>reeks is that he is an inane twat, like most cartoonists
Fair enough; I don't really care for more than 12 syndicated
comics, and the Houston Chronicle alone offers 50+.
HPrill
>> panel is used on several different days, with only different balloons.
>
>
>this is legal.
Yeah, but it's kind of cheesy. It's not done for effect, either. It's just
recycling.
Ahmad Zaki Zakaria
'Cos he's Asian? or just plain obnoxious?
MEPeterson
<Zaki...@maxis.net.my> writes:
>Why do everyone on this thread AND newsgroup hate this guy's gut so much?
>'Cos he's Asian? or just plain obnoxious?
Ridiculous first guess. (Though it raises the interesting question of whether
having the last name "Cho" makes your sense of humor absolutely unbearable. I
guess you need more than two examples, however.)
The hostility towards Frank's work I think stems from disappointment on a
number of fronts: He's young and a very talented draftsman, and could be (like
Magruder) a kind of role model for aspiring young cartoonists in a world where
Dick Tracy, Blondie and other strips get passed along rather than dropped when
their creators retire or die.
So, when he uses the chance of a syndicated strip to do lame, repetitive gags,
it's very disappointing.
He also used to be visible in this newsgroup, but then harvested his address
book for a newsletter in which he whines incessantly about how "the man"
censors his strip, when "the man" seems to give him a lot of leeway for frat
house b*llsh*t that he should have outgrown when he put away the raccoon coat
and the beanie. He also needs to get his own strip moving forward before he
earns the right to target Cathy Guisewhite (whose strip I can't stand, btw) for
her shortcomings.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know I followed LM for a long time, expecting
it to grow and it has, instead, sunk into a rut of pretty women slapping the
crap out of obnoxious animals in bars.
People will complain from time to time about strips like Fred Bassett or Marvin
that don't seem to do much with the space they've been granted in newspapers,
but I don't think they blame those cartoonists as much as they blame the
editors and syndicate folks for choosing unimaginative stuff. OTOH, it's Frank
Cho's fault that his strip isn't working -- he's been given lots of leeway and
he's not doing anything with his talent. That breeds a greater deal of
emotional response among a group like this, IMHO.
I would point out, however, that it's not really a matter of "hating this guys
guts so much." The general consensus seems to be that he (A) needs to grow up
and quit whining and (B) needs a writing partner and probably a fresh start,
which means lose the "Barbie on the Planet of the Muppets" weirdness of LM and
choose a more unified theme and style.
If "the man" were as harsh as Frank claims, "the man" would have insisted on
the second and hoped that Frank could make the first.
But making demands on someone with talent is not the same as hating him. Quite
the opposite, in fact.
Mike Peterson
Glens Falls NY
Andrew Ryan Chang
>I can't speak for everyone, but I know I followed LM for a long time, expecting
>it to grow and it has, instead, sunk into a rut of pretty women slapping the
>crap out of obnoxious animals in bars.
I dunno... he has done long stories (Frank & Brandy on a date near
the beginning of the strip; the Ace Frank story) that sorta go somewhere.
Then again, those tend to drag on a bit.
>I would point out, however, that it's not really a matter of "hating this guys
>guts so much." The general consensus seems to be that he (A) needs to grow up
>and quit whining and (B) needs a writing partner and probably a fresh start,
>which means lose the "Barbie on the Planet of the Muppets" weirdness of LM and
>choose a more unified theme and style.
(a) sounds good to me. (b) ... I find LM's setting fine, if a
little too much like Bloom County.
--
You are what you do. If you do boring, stupid, monotonous work, chances
are you'll end up boring, stupid, and monotonous.
-- "THE ABOLITION OF WORK" by Bob Black
Patrick MARCEL
>
> Why do everyone on this thread AND newsgroup hate this guy's gut so much?
> 'Cos he's Asian? or just plain obnoxious?
I'll take answer two.
A plagiarist, with a nice brushstroke, but very little wit.
And an enormous self-love, apparently.
Patrick
--
"We are all born as molecules in the heart of a billion stars; molecules
that do not understand politics or policies or differences. Over a
billion years, we foolish molecules forget who we are, and where we came
from. In desperate acts of ego we give ourselves names, fight over lines
on maps, and pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame
reminds us of the piece of those stars that lives on inside us, the
spark that tells us, 'you know better'." JMS
Brandon Montoya
>
> Why do everyone on this thread AND newsgroup hate this guy's gut so much?
> 'Cos he's Asian? or just plain obnoxious?
I went and had a look at his "uncensored" stuff. A little South Parkish
in taste, but not atrocious. It's not my cup of tea but I don't see what
the big deal is.
TT
Peter Gullerud
>>
>> Why do everyone on this thread AND newsgroup hate this guy's gut so much?
>> 'Cos he's Asian? or just plain obnoxious?
'cause he's Asian.
JOKE! JOKE! JOKE!
And we don't hate anyone's guts here. Some of these same people have causticly
critiqued many a caucasion cartoonist. I, for one, have even trenchantly
critiqued one or two strips that are quite a bit more popular than Cho's.
Newsgroups are simply bulletin boards, and often you will be witness to a bit
of spleen venting. You have every right to defend anyone's work you feel could
use some balance in this free-for-all.
Michael Morbius
> As readers of the Liberty Meadows comic book, newsletter and comic strip
Ironically, I just read that comic for the first time today.
rap...@research.canon.com.au
Not everyone does. I like Frank Cho's strip. I put my mate Jack
Ardill on to it, and he doesn't like it. If you like Liberty Meadows,
good for you. If you don't like Liberty Meadows, good for you.
Todd VerBeek
>> Why do everyone on this thread AND newsgroup hate this guy's gut so much?
You know, until you pointed it out, it never even occurred to me that he was
Asian. I guess it should've been obvious from the surname, but I guess I'm
so used to the "melting pot" effect (where people have picked up surnames
from other ethnicities through marriage, adoption, clerical error, etc., and
where a surname such as "Lee" can belong to people as ethnically diverse as
both Stan and Jim) that I don't always notice such things. My opinion of
Frank Cho is based entirely on what I've seen of his work and what I've
heard of his character. Which would've still been the case if I'd known or
guessed where his ancestors lived.
Which is a long way of saying that I find your presumption of anti-Asian
bias a bit offensive itself. I'm not saying that such a thing doesn't
exist, but it's damn rare, and the charge of racial bias shouldn't be tossed
around without some actual evidence.
Cheers, Todd
--
"So fuck off, and don't email me again fag."
- Doug <el...@flex.com>, after I asked him to trim his quotes
BobKinDC
>Which is a long way of saying that I find your presumption of anti-Asian
>bias a bit offensive itself. I'm not saying that such a thing doesn't
>exist, but it's damn rare, and the charge of racial bias shouldn't be tossed
>around without some actual evidence.
>
Agreed. In comics, there was a flood of Filipino artists in the early 70s.
Fan reaction wasn't "These Asians are grabbing our jobs," it was "Damn, this
Alcala/Redondo/Nino/Chua/deZuniga guy can draw!" A similar influx of artists
from Asian families occurred in the 90s (Jim Lee and the anime crowd, for
example). I can't think of a single instance in the last 30 years where an
Asian or Asian-American artist was judged by the fans on anything other than
his artwork.
I like Frank's work, but there are valid reasons not to.
-----------------------
--Bob Kennedy Alexandria, VA
jack_ar...@my-deja.com
redk...@sprintmail.com wrote:
> Ahmad Zaki Zakaria wrote:
> >
> > Why do everyone on this thread AND newsgroup hate this guy's gut so
much?
> > 'Cos he's Asian? or just plain obnoxious?
>
Parkish
> in taste, but not atrocious. It's not my cup of tea but I don't see
what
> the big deal is.
>
> TT
His greatest failing to me is that he lacks his own distinct voice,
relying instead on a rather poor imitation of others. Good sense should
tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
own comic, thus proving your unoriginality. But maybe I'm just sick to
death of postmodernism.
Cheers
Jack
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ali assa seen
<bobk...@aol.com> wrote:
> Todd VerBeek wrote:
>
> >Which is a long way of saying that I find your presumption of anti-Asian
> >bias a bit offensive itself. I'm not saying that such a thing doesn't
> >exist, but it's damn rare, and the charge of racial bias shouldn't be tossed
> >around without some actual evidence.
> >
>
> Agreed. In comics, there was a flood of Filipino artists in the early 70s.
> Fan reaction wasn't "These Asians are grabbing our jobs," it was "Damn, this
> Alcala/Redondo/Nino/Chua/deZuniga guy can draw!"
Speak for yourself. I hate all those Philly bastards for stealing food
from the mouths of Don Heck's babies...
- ali assa seen
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> Good sense should
> tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
> own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
rather than directly ripping off others.
---
- Dug.
---
Today's thought: "What does not kill you... will weaken you enough so the
next thing can."
---
Pedro Dias
: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 jack_ar...@my-deja.com wrote:
: > Good sense should
: > tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
: > own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
: Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
: such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
: rather than directly ripping off others.
That is undoubtedly true. Only he does so much undiscriminating, wholesale
looting of others' intellectual property, that you have to see something
like this in that context.
Mogen Dave
I liked the strip where the nerdy guy was calling the chick with the big jugs,
and he was telling her how he couldn't stop thinking about her and asking her
to dinner, and then in the last panel it was CATHY on the other end of the
line! You know, Cathy from the comic strip "Cathy"? See, he dialed the wrong
number and said all that mushy stuff to Cathy by mistake! Get it? Pure comedy
gold!
Mark McComb
Mogen Dave <moge...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000629081041...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
I'd love to see a "Frank Cho Day" in the comics, where each strip rips on
Liberty Meadows.
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.
It sneaks up on you. "BOO!" it says.
Everything is going extremely well. You are the brain and central nervous
system.
--
ali assa seen
<Pine.OSF.3.96.100062...@barra.jcu.edu.au>, Paul
\"Duggy\" Duggan <jc12...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 jack_ar...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Good sense should
> > tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
> > own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
>
> Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
> such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
> rather than directly ripping off others.
>
> ---
> - Dug.
Not that I like Liberty Meadows, but I made the sound "D'oh!" long
before the Simpsons, and now when I make it out of habit, of course
people say, "oh, just like Homer!" If I was using it in a forum where I
had time to edit myself, like a comic strip, of course I would take
into account the notion that people would take it as derivative,
however. And I would expect people to say "Oh, just like Homer," not
"Oh, just like my friend who talks like Homer!"
- ali assa seen
Todd VerBeek
>> Good sense should
>> tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
>> own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
My pal Paul "Duggy" Duggan said:
>Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
>such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
>rather than directly ripping off others.
It still draws attention to the fact that somebody else is being funny, and
you're just aping (people aping) him.
Cheers, Todd
--
Chicken Run: You Will Believe a Chicken Can Fly
Czaerana
What was a baby chicken doing with large containers used to hold liquid?
Cynthia
MEPeterson
(Czaerana) writes:
>>I liked the strip where the nerdy guy was calling the chick with the big
>jugs
>
>What was a baby chicken doing with large containers used to hold liquid?
Drinking from them, I would suppose. Isn't that what jugs are for -- for babies
to drink from?
Patrick MARCEL
> I'd love to see a "Frank Cho Day" in the comics, where each strip rips on
> Liberty Meadows.
Nice thought, but impractical: one would need to use recognizable
original bits from "Liberty Meadows". Tough job...
Mogen Dave
>>I liked the strip where the nerdy guy was calling the chick with the big
>jugs
>
>What was a baby chicken doing with large containers used to hold liquid?
Sorry, I should have said "the female canine who was accompanied by two large
owls." In other words, "the bitch with the gigantic hooters."
If They Mute, Kill 'Em
>Good sense should
>tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
>own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
Yeah, Adele Kurtzman should sue Matt Groening and Fox.
-Chris.
__________________________
"There are too many idiots walking abroad pretending to be real people."
-Eddie Campbell
Steve Johnson
> > Good sense should
> > tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
> > own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
>
I agree. There is a difference between paying homage to a great
character (Homer Simpson) by using a characteristic phrase once or twice
and trying to rip him off.
Cartoonists usually write a little "with apologies to" underneath a
strip in which they borrow someone else's idea or character. I don't
believe Cho has ever done this.
I recently used the "D'oh" in a strip. But I honestly did it out of
tribute to Homer. Now I feel like a jerk.
stevej
--
Kahootz the Strip
http://members.aye.net/~kahootz
Mark Rosenfelder
>Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan wrote:
>> > Good sense should
>> > tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
>> > own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
>>
>
>I agree. There is a difference between paying homage to a great
>character (Homer Simpson) by using a characteristic phrase once or twice
>and trying to rip him off.
>
>Cartoonists usually write a little "with apologies to" underneath a
>strip in which they borrow someone else's idea or character. I don't
>believe Cho has ever done this.
Yes he has. I noticed it in the latest collection comic, the one
where Frank ends up dating Cathy and Broomhilda.
I don't really get the copying charge. The Comics Journal even listed
the Bloom County characters each Liberty Meadows character was allegedly
based on-- I think Frank was Milo, and Brandy was Lola Granola. That
only proves, IMHO, that the reviewer hadn't read University-2 or
didn't know what a character is. There is no Milo Bloom in Liberty
Meadows. (And the problem with Brandy is not that she resembles
Lola, but that she doesn't have much of a character at all.)
Do people really think University-2 was a ripoff of another strip?
He stole the fratboy humor right out of Calvin and Hobbes, right?
And the duck-babe liaison is surely a direct steal from... what, Howard
the Duck?
Liberty Meadows seems to me a commercialized version of University-2.
If he's used some Calvin-style snow jokes... well, Watterson basically
took that from Peanuts, didn't he?
Still, it's nice to see an actual discussion in raca. I thought the
group was dead...
Rob Wynne
>In article <8hqb0b$iv6$1...@violet.singnet.com.sg>
>"Ahmad Zaki Zakaria" <Zaki...@maxis.net.my> writes:
>Not everyone does. I like Frank Cho's strip. I put my mate Jack
>Ardill on to it, and he doesn't like it. If you like Liberty Meadows,
>good for you. If you don't like Liberty Meadows, good for you.
You'll never get anywhere on USENET with an attitude like that.
Rob
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
The best original science-fiction and fantasy on the web:
Aphelion Webzine: http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Gafilk 2001: Jan 5-7, 2001, Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org
Here among the madness, don't forget it's all for dragons and stars.
--Maureen O'Brien
Pedro Dias
: Liberty Meadows seems to me a commercialized version of University-2.
: If he's used some Calvin-style snow jokes... well, Watterson basically
: took that from Peanuts, didn't he?
Nonononono. Get Revenge of the Baby-Sat, page 27. Now turn to LM#8. There
is a snow-fight page in there.
Get it? This is *not* a problem with stylistic similarities. I saw that
when Trudeau accused Bloom County, and thought he was being a little
prickly. Cho's behavior is another thing altogether: theft, plain and
simple, but fortunately for him in a venue where this is poorly policed.
Everybody has influences. Cho has *nothing but* influences. Virtually
everything in there can be traced somewhere else. The Fratboy stuff was
fairly covered by the Steve Dallas character in Bloom County. Portnoy
drunk in a bar would kiss the ladies. In general I'm at a disadvantage,
though, since I only read enough Liberty Meadows to realize what was going
on (half an issue is really all it takes). But from what I've seen and
what people have told me I'm virtually certain that we need no be afraid
originality will creep into Cho's work.
Burning Mute
>Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan wrote:
>> > Good sense should
>> > tell you not to consistently appropriate such things as "D'oh!" for your
>> > own comic, thus proving your unoriginality.
>>
>I agree. There is a difference between paying homage to a great
>character (Homer Simpson) by using a characteristic phrase once or twice
>and trying to rip him off.
>Cartoonists usually write a little "with apologies to" underneath a
>strip in which they borrow someone else's idea or character. I don't
>believe Cho has ever done this.
>I recently used the "D'oh" in a strip. But I honestly did it out of
>tribute to Homer. Now I feel like a jerk.
Adele Kurtzman should sue you too.
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> : Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
> : such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
> : rather than directly ripping off others.
> That is undoubtedly true. Only he does so much undiscriminating, wholesale
> looting of others' intellectual property, that you have to see something
> like this in that context.
An the context is that these characters are based on the sort of people
who steal from popular culture. I know people like that... hell, I am
people like that... Me and my friends would be hard up going one
conversation without using a line from a move, ad, or TV show... and so I
can see my friends in the characters in Liberty Meadows.
---
- Dug.
---
Today's thought: "The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail."
---
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> In article
> <Pine.OSF.3.96.100062...@barra.jcu.edu.au>, Paul
> > Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
> > such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
> > rather than directly ripping off others.
> Not that I like Liberty Meadows, but I made the sound "D'oh!" long
> before the Simpsons, and now when I make it out of habit, of course
> people say, "oh, just like Homer!" If I was using it in a forum where I
> had time to edit myself, like a comic strip, of course I would take
> into account the notion that people would take it as derivative,
> however. And I would expect people to say "Oh, just like Homer," not
> "Oh, just like my friend who talks like Homer!"
OK, if you feel the need to treat your audience like idiots.
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> My pal Paul "Duggy" Duggan said:
> >such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
> >rather than directly ripping off others.
> It still draws attention to the fact that somebody else is being funny, and
> you're just aping (people aping) him.
True, but it's realistic. That's what comic-strips need, more realism.
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> Cartoonists usually write a little "with apologies to" underneath a
> strip in which they borrow someone else's idea or character. I don't
> believe Cho has ever done this.
Starting with his second strip (he apologied to Jeff Smith... but I don't
read Bone, so I didn't see the connection.)
In the fire, he had the silohettes of Rhett and Scarlett from gone with
the wind and apologised to both actors, the writer of the book, and the
director of the film.
And there are many, *many* others. OK, maybe too many, he does apologise.
Except, apparently one strip in #6 which was pretty close to Calvin &
Hobbes and didn't apologise... which, I'm guessing was an accidental
plagarism, not a delibrate steal... but, hell, I don't really know.
> I recently used the "D'oh" in a strip. But I honestly did it out of
> tribute to Homer. Now I feel like a jerk.
If I was to use "D'Oh" in anything, it would be because it's become part
of the way me and my friends speak.
Do you mean it as a tribute to William Gibson everytime you used the word
"Cyberspace"?
Todd VerBeek
>> >Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate things
>> >such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the culture
>> >rather than directly ripping off others.
>On 29 Jun 2000, Todd VerBeek wrote:
>> It still draws attention to the fact that somebody else is being funny, and
>> you're just aping (people aping) him.
My pal Paul "Duggy" Duggan said:
>True, but it's realistic. That's what comic-strips need, more realism.
Says who? I'd rather have humour. Or creativity. Or =something=.
You talked in another message about how you and your friends can't make it
through a single conversation without using some line from a popular TV show
or movie. As someone who doesn't necessarily share the public's taste in TV
and movies, I find this =incredibly= tiresome. It's bad enough that I have
to deal with such inarticulate parrots in real life... =please= don't ask me
to endure pop culture references to pop culture references to other pop
culture references in =other= things I read or watch.
Cheers, Todd
--
"Indeed Bilbo found... he had lost his reputation. It is true that for ever
after he remained an elf-friend, and had the honour of dwarves, wizards, and
all such folk as ever passed that way; but he was... held by all the hobbits
of the neighbourhood to be 'queer'.... I am sorry to say he did not mind."
cle...@my-deja.com
>Snort!<
Comic strips don't need more "realism"; they need more sincerity. The
imitation in LM is alternately mockery and laziness, not flattery.
All IMO,
Tom C.
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.100070...@barra.jcu.edu.au>,
"Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan" <jc12...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> On 29 Jun 2000, Todd VerBeek wrote:
> > My pal Paul "Duggy" Duggan said:
> > >Yeah, but I know a lot of real people who constantly appropiate
things
> > >such as "D'oh!" real life... so it could be that he's mimicing the
culture
> > >rather than directly ripping off others.
>
> > It still draws attention to the fact that somebody else is being
funny, and
> > you're just aping (people aping) him.
>
> True, but it's realistic. That's what comic-strips need, more
realism.
Pedro Dias
Thank you. That's exactly what bothers me about it. I've been trying to
put the finger on exactly the difference between what Cho does and the
many forms of influence that *don't* bother me, and you've nailed it.
: >Snort!<
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> My pal Paul "Duggy" Duggan said:
> >True, but it's realistic. That's what comic-strips need, more realism.
Actually, I was sorta joking...
> You talked in another message about how you and your friends can't make it
> through a single conversation without using some line from a popular TV show
> or movie. As someone who doesn't necessarily share the public's taste in TV
> and movies, I find this =incredibly= tiresome.
I can understand that. However, it's the way we are. It used to piss off
my ex-girlfriend for the exact same reason.
> It's bad enough that I have
> to deal with such inarticulate parrots in real life... =please= don't ask me
> to endure pop culture references to pop culture references to other pop
> culture references in =other= things I read or watch.
No one's asking you to read or watch things that don't appeal to you.
Just accept that that sort of thing (and it's all over the place these
days... ala The Simpsons, South Park, Seinfeld, etc.) appeals to some
people, and reflects their life.
---
- Dug.
---
Today's thought: "Not since The Sex Pistols has there been a group set to
light the fires of Rebellion like Australia's own Bardot."
---
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> >Snort!<
> Comic strips don't need more "realism";
I really should have added a smiley face. Then again, why change the
habit of a lifetime.
> The imitation in LM is alternately mockery and laziness, not flattery.
> All IMO,
Of course... and it depends on how you look at something as to how much
imitation is flattery, satire, or unoriginality.
All I can say is I loved the words "Property of Miracle Max" on the
bellows that they were using to re-inflate Dean's lungs...
Todd VerBeek
>> One thing you fail to make mention of, however: Notice how in
>> the same post Todd complains about quoting from pop culture, he then
>> himself quotes Tolkien.
Huh? I don't have a problem with =quoting=, from whatever source. If
someone wants to refer back to what somebody else once said, that's fine.
What I was expressing my annoyance with is when people habitually parrot
someone else in conversation, whether they get the lines from pop culture,
the Bhagavad Gita, Beowulf, or the writings of David Hume. ("It may be
replied in one word, Richard. It may be replied in one word: Experience.")
>> But of course, since Todd's quotes support an
>> agenda, that makes it okay.
Our friend ronniecat said:
>Show me a .sig that doesn't (even if the agenda is just to prove how darned
>funny the poster is).
Unsurprisingly, Monty sees an "agenda" where only ironic humour was intended
(i.e. Tolkein didn't intend what the quote might mean to a modern reader; I
thought that the juxtaposition was funny). And he whines about it only
because he has a morbid obsession with that "agenda" and with criticising me.
colin irving
intended
> (i.e. Tolkein didn't intend what the quote might mean to a modern reader;
I
> thought that the juxtaposition was funny). And he whines about it only
> because he has a morbid obsession with that "agenda" and with criticising
me.
No agenda? This from the man formerly known as "Todd Verbeek, GWM"?
No agenda my ass, Todd.
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> > One thing you fail to make mention of, however: Notice how in
> > the same post Todd complains about quoting from pop culture, he then
> > himself quotes Tolkien. But of course, since Todd's quotes support an
> > agenda, that makes it okay.
> Show me a .sig that doesn't (even if the agenda is just to prove how darned
> funny the poster is).
Doesn't quote pop culture (which is the issue) or doesn't support an
agenda?
---
- Dug.
---
Today's thought: "I had a really good thought for the day, but I couldn't
remember it when I woke-up."
---
Peter Gullerud
>No agenda my ass, Todd.
Kind of sounds like a sitcom in about 10 years.
a new cartoon or painting every 3 days! :
http://members.aol.com/petergullerud
prodigal...@my-deja.com
>
a) an insurance scheme
b) paid holidays and
c) can anyone join?
BOLLOCKS
BOLLOCKS
BOLLOCKS
BOLLO
BSE
No realy.
I want to die.
By his CHode comics, they sure are hillarious.
No realy.
BSE
jack_ar...@my-deja.com
lockw...@yahoo.com
how in
> >> the same post Todd complains about quoting from pop culture, he
then
> >> himself quotes Tolkien.
>
sarcasm and referencing. "What's that from?" We ask ourselves so
often, because with the giant wave on information coming at us at every
second, it's hard to find something truly original, and not a takeoff,
or a parody, or a 'homage', or just a plain damn rip-off.
That's where my comic strip Questionable Tales comes in. Want something
truly orignal, and fuckin awesome at that (not to be full of myself,
but it IS THAT GOOD)? Go to www.angelfire.com/fl4/questionabletales/.
You WON'T be sorry. Trust me.
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
> You WON'T be sorry. Trust me.
No.
---
- Dug.
---
Bumper Sticker: "Townsville's HOT!."
What is really means: "HOT FM gave me a free sticker."
---
DarthBeepo
>truly orignal, and fuckin awesome at that (not to be full of myself,
>but it IS THAT GOOD)? Go to www.angelfire.com/fl4/questionabletales/.
>
Why? Why do I always fall for anyone who says "Trust me?" I fell for it with
that man who offered me candy to get in his van, then again when I voted both
times for Nixon, and now this buttplug.
Darth
--------------------------------------------------
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