Squadron Supreme?
Diabolik13
dug out those issues and they are better than I remembered. In fact, I'm
sure I'll get ripped for this, I saw certain similarities between SS and
the Watchmen. They are both thinly veiled versions of other companies
heroes, (Watchmen and the old Charlton bunch, and the Squad seems to be
Marvel's take on the old JLA) and they both deal with moral issues more
complicated than those that appear in many comics. Which came out first?
If it was Watchmen, was SS an intentional parralel from Marvel?
If anyone has any SS info or are fans of the original series please let me
know.
Later,
D.
scott andrew cederlund
Diabolik13 <diabo...@aol.com> wrote:
>Has the Squadron been up to anything since Marvel's 1985 series? I just
>dug out those issues and they are better than I remembered. In fact, I'm
The SS also appeared in Quasar. Gruenwald brought them over to the
Marvel world and now they are living at Project Pegasus (at least the
last time I saw them,that is.)
Also, I remember flipping through an Ultraverse book a couple of weeks
ago and saw an appearance of them there... Maybe Rune #2
(crossposted and followups set to rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe)
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: Has the Squadron been up to anything since Marvel's 1985 series? I just
: dug out those issues and they are better than I remembered. In fact, I'm
: the Watchmen. They are both thinly veiled versions of other companies
: heroes, (Watchmen and the old Charlton bunch, and the Squad seems to be
: Marvel's take on the old JLA) and they both deal with moral issues more
: complicated than those that appear in many comics. Which came out first?
: If it was Watchmen, was SS an intentional parralel from Marvel?
: If anyone has any SS info or are fans of the original series please let me
: know.
The Squadron was always based on the JLA, and they came out loooong before
the Watchman. Their mini-series came out around the time of the Watchman,
but several of the characters (Hyperion, Nighthawk, etc) had appeared before
in the Avengers.
After the mini-series, there was a graphic novel.
There have been other such take-offs between various companies. In DC's
Freedom Fighters comic there was a group loosely based on Marvel's Invaders.
Marvel's Shi'ar Guard in Xmen is based on the Legion (not suprising since the
artist at the time had done the Legion). The Teen Titans and DNAgents had
a couple of issues where take-offs of each other appeared.
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Robert Kennedy
wrote:
>The Squadron was always based on the JLA, and they came out loooong before
>the Watchman. Their mini-series came out around the time of the Watchman,
>but several of the characters (Hyperion, Nighthawk, etc) had appeared before
>in the Avengers.
>
>After the mini-series, there was a graphic novel.
>
The Squadron Supreme (Other-Earth)/Squadron Sinister(Marvel Earth) both
appeared in late 60's/early 70's issues of _Avengers_. Don't remember
the exact issues, but it was when Roy Thomas was the regular scripter and
most comics still cost 15 cents.
The Squadron Supreme's first lineup was Hyperion, Dr. Spectrum,
Nighthawk, Whizzer, American Eagle (who later became Cap'n Hawk) and
Hawkeye (a Brit with a very impractical hood; Later changed his costume
and name to Golden Archer, as did the Avengers' Hawkeye for one issue of
_Captain America_).
The Squadron Sinister, their evil Marvel-Earth counterparts, were
Hyperion, Whizzer, Dr. Spectrum and Nighthawk (who later defected to the
Defenders in the 14th issue of their title, circa 1974). Hyperion
eventually died fighting his "good" counterpart, and Nighthawk died
rather pointlessly in the Defenders. Whizzer is now Speed Demon, and
various different people have been Dr. Spectrum.
After their introduction, the Squadron Supreme had two major appearances
before their LS: During the last Englehart story arc of his tenure on
that book (#'s 141-149, circa 1976), wherein they added members Tom
Thumb, Lady Lark and Amphibian, and during Ed Hannigan's tenure on The
Defenders (around 1982), adding Power Princess and Arcanna to the lineup.
They were last seen, I think, in an issue of Quasar about four or five
years ago.
John Saponaro
>
> Has the Squadron been up to anything since Marvel's 1985 series? I just
> dug out those issues and they are better than I remembered. In fact, I'm
> sure I'll get ripped for this, I saw certain similarities between SS and
> the Watchmen. They are both thinly veiled versions of other companies
> heroes, (Watchmen and the old Charlton bunch, and the Squad seems to be
> Marvel's take on the old JLA) and they both deal with moral issues more
> complicated than those that appear in many comics. Which came out first?
> If it was Watchmen, was SS an intentional parralel from Marvel?
> If anyone has any SS info or are fans of the original series please let me
> know.
> D.
Di -- it's my belief that Marvel sanctioned SS because of WATCHMEN. This was
during the Jim Shooter period ("The editor-in-chief of Marvel comics is so
tall, when he drives through the Lincoln Tunnel, he has to duck!") whenever
his spies saw something coming at DC, he ordered something like it at Marvel
to steal their thunder (compare SECRET WARS and CRISIS). Anyway, I'd like to
see a new SQUADRON SUPREME miniseries, but only if it's a homage to the days
of Gardner Fox.
Ian McDowell
While the 1985 SS mini-series debuted before Watchmen, it seemed quite
similar to the somewhat inaccurate pre-release publicity about Moore's
masterpiece. I'm sure that I'd been reading about Watchmen in interviews
with Moore and in several Amazing Heroes Preview Specials for well over a
year before Squadron Supreme appeared. I also vaguely remember various
comics pros having similar suspicions, and saying as much in the fan
press. Fairly or not, the impression many of us had was that The Squadron
Supreme was an attempt by Marvel to "do Watchmen _right_" before Marvel
(or any of the rest of us) even knew what Watchmen was.
Ian
William George Ferguson
>> Has the Squadron been up to anything since Marvel's 1985 series? I just
>> dug out those issues and they are better than I remembered. In fact, I'm
>> sure I'll get ripped for this, I saw certain similarities between SS and
>> the Watchmen. They are both thinly veiled versions of other companies
>> heroes, (Watchmen and the old Charlton bunch, and the Squad seems to be
>> Marvel's take on the old JLA) and they both deal with moral issues more
>> complicated than those that appear in many comics. Which came out first?
>> If it was Watchmen, was SS an intentional parralel from Marvel?
>> If anyone has any SS info or are fans of the original series please let me
>> know.
>> Later,
>> D.
John Saponaro <joh...@198.4.75.49> wrote:
>Di -- it's my belief that Marvel sanctioned SS because of WATCHMEN. This was
>during the Jim Shooter period ("The editor-in-chief of Marvel comics is so
>tall, when he drives through the Lincoln Tunnel, he has to duck!") whenever
>his spies saw something coming at DC, he ordered something like it at Marvel
>to steal their thunder (compare SECRET WARS and CRISIS). Anyway, I'd like to
>see a new SQUADRON SUPREME miniseries, but only if it's a homage to the days
>of Gardner Fox.
So Marvel deliberately copied a comic book that didn't even exist yet?
I'm impressed.
Please get real. SS was a direct and deliberate copy of JLA (an
hommage if you will) just as the Shi'ar Imperial Guard (done in
roughly the same time frame) was a send up of the Legion of
Superheroes. Please keep in mind that the Squadron Sinister first
appeared in an Avengers annual many years before the limited series,
and the Squadron Supreme first appeared in the Serpent Crown story arc
in the Avengers, several years before the limited series. My memory
says Shooter wasn't the EIC yet, when the first version of the SS
appeared.
There is a concept called Steam Engine Time. When all the necessary
conditions were present, if James Watt hadn't invented the steam
engine, someone else would have. This leads to numerous
'coincidences' which really do just happen, such as Time & Newsweek so
frequently coming up with the same cover subjects in the same week.
In comics, one of the more famous examples is the debut of Swamp Thing
& Man-Thing. It was Muck Monster Time.
And in answer to the 1st question, the remnants of the SS are doing
security for Project Pegasus, and are currently involved in the Malibu
Phoenix storyline.
Ian McDowell
On 28 Dec 1995, William George Ferguson wrote:
> So Marvel deliberately copied a comic book that didn't even exist yet?
> I'm impressed.
There's nothing particularly unusual about this. It happens sometimes
in the film world. Examples include ROCKETSHIP X-M being released well
before DESTINATION MOON and Roger Corman rushing CARNOSAUR into the
theaters in attempt to jump the gun on JURASSIC PARK.
Remember, we're _only_ talking about the 1985 mini-series here, not the
SQUADRON SUPREME characters. Whether or not the basic idea of
superheroes trying solve the world's ills and thus profoundly changing
was actually derived from early reports of WATCHMEN, the rumor that
WATCHMEN was the SQUADRON SUPREME mini-series's inspiration was
circulating well before _either_ book appeared, and it was referred to in
publications like CBG and AMAZING HEROES.
Matthew F Johnson
> Diabolik13 wrote:
>>> Has the Squadron been up to anything since Marvel's 1985 series? I just
>>> dug out those issues and they are better than I remembered. In fact, I'm
>>> sure I'll get ripped for this, I saw certain similarities between SS and
>>> the Watchmen. They are both thinly veiled versions of other companies
>>> heroes, (Watchmen and the old Charlton bunch, and the Squad seems to be
>>> Marvel's take on the old JLA) and they both deal with moral issues more
>>> complicated than those that appear in many comics. Which came out first?
>>> If it was Watchmen, was SS an intentional parralel from Marvel?
>>> If anyone has any SS info or are fans of the original series please let me
>>> know.
>>> Later,
>>> D.
>
(snip)
>
> Ian McDowell <ikmc...@hamlet.uncg.edu> wrote:
>>While the 1985 SS mini-series debuted before Watchmen, it seemed quite
>>similar to the somewhat inaccurate pre-release publicity about Moore's
>>masterpiece. I'm sure that I'd been reading about Watchmen in interviews
>>with Moore and in several Amazing Heroes Preview Specials for well over a
>>year before Squadron Supreme appeared. I also vaguely remember various
>>comics pros having similar suspicions, and saying as much in the fan
>>press. Fairly or not, the impression many of us had was that The Squadron
>>Supreme was an attempt by Marvel to "do Watchmen _right_" before Marvel
>>(or any of the rest of us) even knew what Watchmen was.
>
> So Marvel deliberately copied a comic book that didn't even exist yet?
> I'm impressed.
>
> Please get real. SS was a direct and deliberate copy of JLA (an
> hommage if you will) just as the Shi'ar Imperial Guard (done in
> roughly the same time frame) was a send up of the Legion of
> Superheroes. Please keep in mind that the Squadron Sinister first
> appeared in an Avengers annual many years before the limited series,
> and the Squadron Supreme first appeared in the Serpent Crown story arc
> in the Avengers, several years before the limited series. My memory
> says Shooter wasn't the EIC yet, when the first version of the SS
> appeared.
The question is not the SS as a group, but the plot of their LS.
In my mind there is a certain similarity there - take a bunch of "classic"
heroes, darken, them, and wreck their universe - but little enough I could
easily believe it's coincidence. However, I could just as easily believe
Gruenwald was told "do something where everything goes wrong for the
heroes", and that he took it from there.
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Michael Rawdon
series was actually a pretty good comic. Granted, it is a sooper-heero comic
which may not appeal to the tastes of many people, but within the genre I
think it worked quite well. Of course, the great art by Bob Hall (and, later,
the still-good art of Paul Ryan) didn't hurt.
The follow-up graphic novel was not so good, however.
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Sendai Interactive
issues of Quasar. Good lord, some of the stuff I've actually read
scares me.
Frank Kurtz
Still at HERO
Kevin J. Maroney
>> So Marvel deliberately copied a comic book that didn't even exist yet?
>> I'm impressed.
>
>Remember, we're _only_ talking about the 1985 mini-series here, not the
>SQUADRON SUPREME characters. Whether or not the basic idea of
>superheroes trying solve the world's ills and thus profoundly changing
>was actually derived from early reports of WATCHMEN, the rumor that
>WATCHMEN was the SQUADRON SUPREME mini-series's inspiration was
>circulating well before _either_ book appeared, and it was referred to in
>publications like CBG and AMAZING HEROES.
I'm inclined to credit steam-engine time here. _Squadron Supreme_ the
mini-series follows up a number of ideas Gruenwald had obviously been
mulling for some time. The fact of the impending publication of
Watchmen may well have spurred Grue to go ahead and do SS, but I think
that SS would have existed without Watchmen, eventually.
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Jim Perreault
>tall, when he drives through the Lincoln Tunnel, he has to duck!") whenever
>his spies saw something coming at DC, he ordered something like it at Marvel
>to steal their thunder (compare SECRET WARS and CRISIS).
Was Secret Wars a reaction to Crisis or Super Powers?
It seems to me that Super Powers and Secret Wars are a lot closer. Plus,
both had toy lines. I doubt that is coincidence.
Of note is that Secret Wars II was originally scheduled to conclude at the
same time as Crisis did. SW I ended a month before Crisis, and SW II
started 3 months in, and was 9 issues long.
Jim
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j...@acsu.buffalo.edu
http://piranha.eng.buffalo.edu/people/jap