Racism in Sandman Mystery Theater 5
Hector Lee
I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures of
Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
yellow! I can't believe someone allowed this! Pick up a National Geographic,
or even a Newsweek to see what people look like. Where'd Watkiss learn to
draw? WWII propaganda posters? And where'd Hornung learn to color? The
original Cryola six pack?
I am definitely writing Watkiss (caricaturist), Hornung (paint-by-numberist),
Berger (Editor), and Roeberg (ass. editor). Is there anybody else I shout
know if I will see it. I was really hoping to like this run, too.
Dani Zweig
>I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures of
>Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
>yellow! I can't believe someone allowed this! Pick up a National Geographic,
>or even a Newsweek to see what people look like. Where'd Watkiss learn to
>draw? WWII propaganda posters?
Probably. The art appears to reflect the stereotyping and styles of
the period in which the story is set. That said, I don't think your
shouting 'racism' makes any more sense than it would for me to shout
'antisemitism' because "Maus" depicts Jews as mice, when a look at
Newsweek would show this to be inaccurate. (Or, for that matter, for
me to shout 'antisemitism' because the villains of the last SMS
storyline were Jewish.)
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine -- Edmund Spenser
James Hsiao
>
>I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures of
>Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
>yellow!
I am Chinese and I dont mind the art that much. I think its because of
something I read in a previous post. Watkiss is trying to recapture the
style of the 20's or so--I believe the style of comic he is imitating
has lemon yellow Orientals and such. (I dont really understand the caria-
catures of Cantonese, though) reply, we'll discuss
James Hsiao
Internet: fre...@maple.circa.ufl.edu, jame...@aol.com
America Online: JamesHsi
*******************************************************************************
James Hsiao AOL:JamesHsi I If you strike me down, I shall become more power-
Internet: jame...@aol.com I ful than you can possibly imagine--Obi Wan Kenobi
fre...@maple.circa.ufl.edu I I dunno; I can imagine quit a bit--Han Solo
Milton W. Kuo
>I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures of
>Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
>yellow! I can't believe someone allowed this! Pick up a National Geographic,
>or even a Newsweek to see what people look like. Where'd Watkiss learn to
>draw? WWII propaganda posters? And where'd Hornung learn to color? The
While the way the Chinese were drawn in the comic was really
bad, I wasn't terribly offended for some odd reason. Maybe it's
because I honestly feel that the artist is trying to achieve the
feel of the 1930's. Nonetheless, it is annoying to see artists
draw all Asian people with eyes that slant upwards and eyebrows
that are like Namor's -- I have yet to see any Asian with eyes and
eyebrows like that. Gary Frank (Incredible Hulk) is the only art-
ist I've seen capable of drawing Asians accurately.
The coloring was just outright weird. The Chinese in Sandman
Mystery Theatre must have been exposed to radioactive waste or
something with that neon yellow skin.
>I am definitely writing Watkiss (caricaturist), Hornung (paint-by-numberist),
>Berger (Editor), and Roeberg (ass. editor). Is there anybody else I shout
>know if I will see it. I was really hoping to like this run, too.
I think I might write to them just to tell them that I think
their coloring stinks. The first story arc was too dark and now
this.
Milton W. Kuo
st...@jetson.uh.edu
Edward Liu
writes:
>In article <1993Jun18.0...@news.acns.nwu.edu>
so...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Hector Lee) writes:
>>The art in this comicbook (you may only find it at a comicbook dealer) is
>>disturbing in its caricature of Cantonese. The art looks straight out of
>>WWII propaganda posters. To top it off, the Asian characters are colored a
>>lemon yellow! (In comicbooks, the artist often doesn't color the book, but
>>only draws)
>
>I have news for you. Not only is it straight out of WWII posters, it's also
>set during that era.
After my initial shock at the artwork, I did realize the connection between
the "Golden Age" depiction of Asians and the artwork in this issue. That said,
I'm not quite sure what to make of the artwork in this issue. On the one hand,
I recognize the connection and I realize that there were reasons for it. On
the other hand, it is pretty hard to look at the Asian "people" in this issue
and not be at least somewhat offended. So comics in the 30's drew Asian people
as small lemon-yellow people with impossibly slanted eyes and pigtails. So
what? It was offensive then and even though I know its an "homage" to older
styles, I'm mildly insulted by it now. Besides, I find it hard to take Jimmy
and the Tong leaders seriously when they look so patently ridiculous and
unreal. If they had done the background Asians in the 30's style and depicted
the important players more realistically, maybe that would have worked better
for me.
In <daniC8t...@netcom.com>, da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Probably. The art appears to reflect the stereotyping and styles of
>the period in which the story is set. That said, I don't think your
>shouting 'racism' makes any more sense than it would for me to shout
>'antisemitism' because "Maus" depicts Jews as mice, when a look at
>Newsweek would show this to be inaccurate. (Or, for that matter, for
>me to shout 'antisemitism' because the villains of the last SMS
>storyline were Jewish.)
There is a difference between the fact that the last villians of SMS were
Jewish and what happened in SMT#5. The fact that the villians of the last
issue were Jewish was incidental, at least to me. However, if the Jewish
villians had been drawn dressed in black suits with bowler hats, big bushy
beards, and immense noses with their word balloons liberally sprinkled with
"Oy!"s and comments about money, I fancy that some people would have been
somewhat offended. Maybe an exaggeration and not intended to be a flame,
but I think you can see my point.
-- Ed
Edward C. Liu | "I never thought I'd be a cat person. Who'd have
el...@andrew.cmu.edu | thought they'd turn out to be good for anything
(E-L, not E-One) | besides carrying explosives?"
| -- _Flying Blind_
U58...@uicvm.uic.edu
>
>Probably. The art appears to reflect the stereotyping and styles of
>the period in which the story is set. That said, I don't think your
>shouting 'racism' makes any more sense than it would for me to shout
>'antisemitism' because "Maus" depicts Jews as mice, when a look at
>Newsweek would show this to be inaccurate. (Or, for that matter, for
>me to shout 'antisemitism' because the villains of the last SMS
>storyline were Jewish.)
I was pretty shocked when I got home to read my copy of Sandman Mystery
Theater last night. I don't think that the analogy to _Maus_ is entirely
correct. For one, everyone in _Maus_ was an animal of one sort or other,
and the use of mice for the Jews and cats for the Nazis fit with the
subject matter. Of the characters in SMT, _ONLY_ the Chinese are drawn
as caricatures. Wesley, Dian, her father, and everyone else are drawn
in a much more realistic manner.
A more bothersome problem for me was that all the Chinese shown are
shady evil gangsters -- unless she is a woman, in which case she's a
hooker. I don't buy the "attempt to draw in the style of the period"
argument: if Wesley was to break up a crime ring in Harlem, I highly
doubt that the readers of r.a.c.m. would accept artwork depicting
the Harlem residents as a bunch of moonfaced, watermelon-eating,
shuffling characters as being acceptable.
It is one thing to write a period story. It is another thing
completely to write using racist caricatures of another period.
Wilbur Pan u58...@uicvm.uic.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------
This article does not represent the opinions of the Deans of the
College of Medicine of the University of Illinois at Chicago.
They're not that clever.
E. Kontei
> so...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Hector Lee):
> >I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The
> >caricatures of Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the
> >Asians/Chinese the same lemon yellow!
>
> the period in which the story is set.
Naah, Watkiss is just a mediocre artist. He probably didn't *mean* to be
racist. He uses the "period emulation" crutch as an artistic shortcut,
and in the process foists a number of cheap stereotypes on us.
Let me put it this way: if Watkiss drew black people as having bulging
eyes and big lips, would that be racist? Mind you, the art would be
reflecting "the stereotyping and styles of the period in which the
story is set."
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
The Flip-Flip Man
co...@cbnewsl.att.com jes...@ihlpm.att.com
Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
silbrmnd
>so...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Hector Lee):
>>I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures of
>>Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
>>yellow! I can't believe someone allowed this! Pick up a National Geographic,
>>or even a Newsweek to see what people look like. Where'd Watkiss learn to
>>draw? WWII propaganda posters?
>Probably. The art appears to reflect the stereotyping and styles of
>the period in which the story is set. That said, I don't think your
>shouting 'racism' makes any more sense than it would for me to shout
>'antisemitism' because "Maus" depicts Jews as mice, when a look at
>Newsweek would show this to be inaccurate.
Ya mean we're not? (squeaks the DarkMage as she moves the cursor over
to a piece of cheese)
(Or, for that matter, for
>me to shout 'antisemitism' because the villains of the last SMS
>storyline were Jewish.)
>-----
>Dani Zweig
>da...@netcom.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But it's DEFINITE summat to tell yer GRANDCHILDREN,//Darkmage, BotL
eh, Master Redlaw? "Coincidentally, the werry same//silb...@acf3.nyu.edu
day I was popped into a cookpot, I discovered //Darkrose of the n.t.b.
Empusa's Inifinitely Extensible Chain, on a owl."-Master Levert, BoM#3
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----(@ DarkRose of the net.trenchcoat.brigade @)--'--,--'---
Mark W. Billian
supposed to be exploring hate crime. Racism falls in this category I believe.
I wouldn't be surprised if Wagner asked to have th book drwn and colored that
way.
Mark B.
Carl Fink
S>I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures o
>Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
>yellow! I can't believe someone allowed this! Pick up a National Geographic
>or even a Newsweek to see what people look like. Where'd Watkiss learn to
>draw? WWII propaganda posters? And where'd Hornung learn to color? The
>original Cryola six pack?
S>I am definitely writing Watkiss (caricaturist), Hornung (paint-by-numberist),
>Berger (Editor), and Roeberg (ass. editor). Is there anybody else I shout
>know if I will see it. I was really hoping to like this run, too.
I complained once about similar coloring in Chaykin's BLACKHAWK
series, and basically the problem is the color printing process -
apparently when using four-color-on-newsprint it's *impossible* to get
any yellow other than "Superman-logo yellow".
--
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com CFINK (NVN)
Dani Zweig
>...if the Jewish villians had been drawn dressed in black suits with bowler
>sprinkled with "Oy!"s and comments about money, I fancy that some people
>would have been somewhat offended. Maybe an exaggeration and not intended
>to be a flame, but I think you can see my point.
Fair enough.
I don't think [modern] racism is at work here, but I would agree that
the art style is offensive without really offering a compensating benefit.
A better way of getting the same message across would have been to show
one of the characters (preferably a normally portrayed Chinese character,
for contrast) with a pulp or comic of that style.
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity." -- W.B. Yeats
silbrmnd
>In article <daniC8t...@netcom.com>, da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) says:
>>
>>Probably. The art appears to reflect the stereotyping and styles of
>>the period in which the story is set. That said, I don't think your
>>shouting 'racism' makes any more sense than it would for me to shout
>>'antisemitism' because "Maus" depicts Jews as mice, when a look at
>>Newsweek would show this to be inaccurate. (Or, for that matter, for
>>me to shout 'antisemitism' because the villains of the last SMS
>>storyline were Jewish.)
>I was pretty shocked when I got home to read my copy of Sandman Mystery
>Theater last night. I don't think that the analogy to _Maus_ is entirely
>correct. For one, everyone in _Maus_ was an animal of one sort or other,
>and the use of mice for the Jews and cats for the Nazis fit with the
>subject matter. Of the characters in SMT, _ONLY_ the Chinese are drawn
>as caricatures. Wesley, Dian, her father, and everyone else are drawn
>in a much more realistic manner.
Well, I havent' exactly been reading SMT (sorry, 2 issues were more than
enough for me), but IMHO the characters aren't exactly drawn
realistically, unless they're all _supposed_ to be butt-ugly... :)
>A more bothersome problem for me was that all the Chinese shown are
>shady evil gangsters -- unless she is a woman, in which case she's a
>hooker. I don't buy the "attempt to draw in the style of the period"
>argument: if Wesley was to break up a crime ring in Harlem, I highly
>doubt that the readers of r.a.c.m. would accept artwork depicting
>the Harlem residents as a bunch of moonfaced, watermelon-eating,
>shuffling characters as being acceptable.
>It is one thing to write a period story. It is another thing
>completely to write using racist caricatures of another period.
Yeah, 'specially since the characters are supposed to be in another
period, not the artists... (Or is this one of those stories where the
chars actually realize htat they're in a comic? :)
>Wilbur Pan u58...@uicvm.uic.edu
-DarkMage
(Yes, we're in a silly mood today. :)
Tom Galloway
> styles, I'm mildly insulted by it now. Besides, I find it hard to take
> Jimmy and the Tong leaders seriously when they look so patently ridiculous
> and unreal.
I tend to agree that it was a mistake to depict Asians in the style of
30/40s comics, rather than portraying them in the actual styles of the
times (clothing, etc.). However, Edward's comment got me thinking that
his problem of taking the characters seriously just might be what the
creators have in mind. Notice that many of the caucasian characters in
the book have problems taking the Asians seriously, so this might be
an attempt to put the contemporary reader on a par with the characters
in the book.
The flaw with this is that it assumes a certain level of surrealism
and character definition by stretching reality (a la the Sienkiewicz
depictions during his run on New Mutants) which is very much at odds
with all of the rest of the art style. Thus I'd have to rule this an
artistic, as well as politic, error.
"I think you should defend to the death their right to march, and then go down
and meet them with baseball bats." -- Woody Allen, on the KKK
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Hector Lee
supposed to be "Is there anybody else I should be writing to other than those
listed? I was really hoping to enjoy this series too."
I promise to spin this off to the appropriate group if necessary. I already
posted a similiar article to Soc.culture.asian.american
Hector>
Edward Liu
I'd like to pass on the comments that have been made so far on
this issue to the SMT crew. With a little bit of luck, we may get
at least an explanation (and I'd get my name printed in the lettercol
of a comic book, thus establishing myself as a True Comics Geek (tm)
:-), although the issues have probably been drawn and colored by now.
If anybody (DarkMage) out there (DarkMage) wouldn't want their
comments to be seen (DarkMage) by the DC Powers-Dat-Be (DarkMage)
or would/would not want your name to appear in the file I send,
please e-mail me and let me know.
Not that I'm singling out anybody who sent out messages in a self-
proclaimed silly mood or anything like that. Oh, no no no...:-) :-) :-).
Francis Uy
>>I can't believe the art in a comicbook could be so racist. The caricatures of
>>Cantonese was bad enough, but to color all the Asians/Chinese the same lemon
st...@rosie.uh.edu (Milton W. Kuo) writes:
>bad, I wasn't terribly offended for some odd reason. Maybe it's
>because I honestly feel that the artist is trying to achieve the
>feel of the 1930's. Nonetheless, it is annoying to see artists
I agree -- it wasn't intented to be racist, it's an attempt
to capture the 30's look + feel. Of course, in the 90's
intent means nothing, so taking offense is a fair response. )-:
No seriously, I think we'll have to wait and see on this one.
It could be that the Asians are caricatured on purpose, in
order to make an important point. Matt's intent for the
SMS series is to discuss hate crimes, this could be a symbolic
thing.
And it's DEFINITELY the case that Watkiss, Hornung, et al.
are NOT the ones at fault here -- remember that Matt Wagner
is a very talented artist on his own, and if the Asians are
drawn that way, it's his idea, not theirs.
-F
silbrmnd
>To all who have participated in this exchange so far,
> I'd like to pass on the comments that have been made so far on
>this issue to the SMT crew. With a little bit of luck, we may get
>at least an explanation (and I'd get my name printed in the lettercol
>of a comic book, thus establishing myself as a True Comics Geek (tm)
>:-), although the issues have probably been drawn and colored by now.
>If anybody (DarkMage) out there (DarkMage) wouldn't want their
>comments to be seen (DarkMage) by the DC Powers-Dat-Be (DarkMage)
>or would/would not want your name to appear in the file I send,
>please e-mail me and let me know.
Hehehehehehe... Could he mean _me_, I wonder?
Ok, I didn't know your were compiling these comments (just leave out my
e-mail address...)
> Not that I'm singling out anybody who sent out messages in a self-
>proclaimed silly mood or anything like that. Oh, no no no...:-) :-) :-).
-DarkMage
--
"Pseudonyms mean never having to say you're sorry, and never getting
broiled in flame wars..."
ginsberg deborah
I, too, found the coloring and artistic portrayal of the Asian characters
annoying. But I also couldn't figure out if the coloring was just atrocious,
as in a few scenes Caucasian characters come out looking quite green, or if the
00gdw...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Well, if it is racist (the line-drawings, not the colorings, there's no DOUBT
the coloring was racist in my mind...), then I'm pretty sure it was
unintentional on Watkiss's part, since Watkiss seems to be a shitty artist.
I want Guy Davis back!
Now, as long as Wagner keeps on, I'll be buying it, but c'mon, Davis was FAR
more suited that Watkiss is..........hmmmm maybe have Gavin Wilson do an issue?
Or even a regular series? Anyone?
--
GEOFF WESSEL Cerebus the NetAardvark of the NTB
00GDW...@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU (VAX) Ball State Japanese Animation Society
RIP unix :~( Long live fron...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu! Ranma-kun/Ranmachan (IRC)
"The first one to yell 'Grebo' gets a foot in the teeth!" -- Steve Albini
David R. Henry
>the coloring was racist in my mind...), then I'm pretty sure it was
>unintentional on Watkiss's part, since Watkiss seems to be a shitty artist.
>
>
>I want Guy Davis back!
>
>
>Now, as long as Wagner keeps on, I'll be buying it, but c'mon, Davis was FAR
WHAT??
Oh, sorry... I thought you said Gahan Wilson. I was briefly confused,
there...
"There's some thing to see you, sir."
--
David R. Henry - Rogue Fan Club -- Yee-haw! Come and join the Sunset Gang!
Obessa Cantauit. --Richard Darwin // What was the question? -- Kate Bush
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS // Thanks... for the memories.--Rogue
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * ud13...@ndsuvm1.bitnet * ud13...@vm1.nodak.edu
00gdw...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
>>Well, if it is racist (the line-drawings, not the colorings, there's no DOUBT
>>the coloring was racist in my mind...), then I'm pretty sure it was
>>unintentional on Watkiss's part, since Watkiss seems to be a shitty artist.
>>
>>
>>I want Guy Davis back!
>>
>>
>>Now, as long as Wagner keeps on, I'll be buying it, but c'mon, Davis was FAR
>>more suited that Watkiss is.......hmmmm maybe have Gavin Wilson do an issue?
>
> WHAT??
>
> Oh, sorry... I thought you said Gahan Wilson. I was briefly confused,
> there...
Actually, that's something I wouldn't mind seeing either....a Gahan Wilson
Vertigo book.....hmmmm
>
> "There's some thing to see you, sir."
>
> --
> David R. Henry - Rogue Fan Club -- Yee-haw! Come and join the Sunset Gang!
> Obessa Cantauit. --Richard Darwin // What was the question? -- Kate Bush
> "All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS // Thanks... for the memories.--Rogue
> dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * ud13...@ndsuvm1.bitnet * ud13...@vm1.nodak.edu
Viktor Haag
: I, too, found the coloring and artistic portrayal of the Asian
: characters annoying. But I also couldn't figure out if the coloring
: was just atrocious, as in a few scenes Caucasian characters come out
: looking quite green, or if the
Hmmm, from my point of view, I think Wagner's also attempting to say
something *about* period comics by writing a period comic.
'S true, though, that satire and commentary seem to go right over most
people's heads. The North American public seems to be having an
increasingly large problem examining tough issues; look at the furor
over Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, par example.
For me, SMT is probably the best new thing DC's come out with, Vertigo
or normal title, in the past year. I also think it's swiftly taking
over Sandman in quality -- I think Gaiman's getting tired, and should
move on to something fresh. As for Grant Miller, he *really* needs to
find himself a new meaty vehicle, and a merciless editor; I can't
believe that Sebastian O slipped onto the shelves (*yawn*). Did
anything at all happen in that 3 parter?
--
Viktor Haag email -- vik...@mks.com
Mortice Kern Systems 35 King North, Waterloo, Ontario
"Ultron is a Habs fan ... " voice -- (519) 883 3215
just another theatre geek
>ginsberg deborah (de...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: I, too, found the coloring and artistic portrayal of the Asian
>: characters annoying. But I also couldn't figure out if the coloring
>: was just atrocious, as in a few scenes Caucasian characters come out
>: looking quite green, or if the
>Hmmm, from my point of view, I think Wagner's also attempting to say
>something *about* period comics by writing a period comic.
I find this a more defendable statement if Wagner's portryal of
Chinese Americans had any trace of psychological or historical reality.
As it is, I just find it bad writing.
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, member, STOFF; Artistic Dir., PC Theatre
"David Henry Hwang's BONDAGE is about an Asian male attaining his fantasy: being
dominated and humilated by a Caucasian blonde. Sheer fantasy, of course; we all
know in real life it's the other way around."
Wayne A. Wong
of the wood work to comment on this issue, I thought I'd throw in my
two cents:
"Klink! Klink!"
- Wayne, quickly hit the back space key when he first typed "Chink! Chink!"
for the sound effect. :)
(Sorry, but I'm waiting for #8 to come out before I read 1-8 in one chunk)
=========================================================================
W A Y N E . A . W O N G
=========================================================================
SE...@ARIEL.LERC.NASA.GOV SE...@LIMS01.LERC.NASA.GOV
John Dunkelberg
>Of the characters in SMT, _ONLY_ the Chinese are drawn
>as caricatures. Wesley, Dian, her father, and everyone else are drawn
>in a much more realistic manner.
Heck, if you say so. I still don't think i like them either.
>A more bothersome problem for me was that all the Chinese shown are
>shady evil gangsters -- unless she is a woman, in which case she's a
>hooker. I don't buy the "attempt to draw in the style of the period"
>argument: if Wesley was to break up a crime ring in Harlem, I highly
>doubt that the readers of r.a.c.m. would accept artwork depicting
>the Harlem residents as a bunch of moonfaced, watermelon-eating,
>shuffling characters as being acceptable.
If I remember correctly (not having the comic at hand), we have
essentially only seen a few sights of "chinatown", and that was at
night, in the restaurant and in the hq of the tong.
Do you assume that all the Chinese in the retaurant are evil tong scum?
Do you assume that the people in the tong HQ are innocents?
What I'm saying is, the complaint about seeing only "shady evil
gansters" is because, due to the story, we have only had scenes with
"sahdy evil gangsters". I, for one, don't want a scene with good
honest Chinese folk until the plot demands it... or should we have a
token page of PC-ness?
I assume that you would also complain if in a WWII concentration camp
our artists only drew "evil sadistic German SS troops".
>It is one thing to write a period story. It is another thing
>completely to write using racist caricatures of another period.
To be fair, I'm not particularly thrilled with the radioactive yellow
Chinese, but given the bad (IMHO) art up to now...
john
--
John S. Dunkelberg Jr.
john...@wpi.wpi.edu john...@sidney.wpi.edu john...@maxine.wpi.edu
WPI CS GradStudent WPI CAD LAB SystemAdmin TA
Nakitsura ni hatchi
Zen, philosopher at large
>For me, SMT is probably the best new thing DC's come out with, Vertigo
>or normal title, in the past year. I also think it's swiftly taking
>over Sandman in quality -- I think Gaiman's getting tired, and should
>move on to something fresh. As for Grant Miller, he *really* needs to
>find himself a new meaty vehicle, and a merciless editor; I can't
>believe that Sebastian O slipped onto the shelves (*yawn*). Did
>anything at all happen in that 3 parter?
Well... yes and no. It depends on your point of view. It introduced a lot
of people to the techno-Victorian genre, showed some people that Grant
Morrison can write stuff that isn't Doom Patrol, and made me eager for more.
Zen, philosopher-at-rest
--
Unlike subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist on
a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be the ultimate
reality then we're permitted only one construction of things - that which
corresponds to the "objective" world - and all other constructions are unreal.
Viktor Haag
: In article <1993Jun23....@mks.com> vik...@mks.com (Viktor Haag) writes:
: >ginsberg deborah (de...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: >: I, too, found the coloring and artistic portrayal of the Asian
: >: characters annoying. But I also couldn't figure out if the coloring
: >: was just atrocious, as in a few scenes Caucasian characters come out
: >: looking quite green, or if the
: >Hmmm, from my point of view, I think Wagner's also attempting to say
: >something *about* period comics by writing a period comic.
: I find this a more defendable statement if Wagner's portryal of
: Chinese Americans had any trace of psychological or historical reality.
: As it is, I just find it bad writing.
My point exactly! Not that his writing is bad, but that his portrayal
of Chinese Americans _has_ no trace of psychological or historical
reality. The whole point is, however, that they have a historical
reality with respect to the _genre_ he is mimmicking. The title
should be a dead give away -- Sandman _Mystery Theatre_.
Matt's not attempting to be realistic -- he's only attempting to write
a period comic and be faithful to the genre. I wouldn't say that
Matt's incapable of prejudgement, we all have that flaw to a certain
extent.
What I _am_ saying is that Matt's a good enough writer that you should
look beyond the obvious kneejerk reaction and hunt for what's _really
going on_. I admit this would be more difficult for those people who
find themselves on the end of the stereotype, but my guess is that
Matt's trying to say something about stereotypical portrayal in comics
as well as tell a ripping good adventure tail.
And like it or not, this sort of uncomfortable examination of our ugly
sides (and our ugly past) is going to be a factor in raising the
comicbook medium to its rightful place as a unique, relevant, and
valid artistic medium.
If you're really worried about the nasty portrayal of women and
minorities in comic books, far worse offenders exist than Wagner's
work. For Pete's Sake, just look at endless stream of sludge that hit
the shelves from Image and Marvel, from the likes of Jim Lee, Todd
McFarlane, Rob Liefeld and all the other happy little fan boy artists.
There's enough stereotypes in those books to keep us all in
self-righteous fits for weeks ...
just another theatre geek
>just another theatre geek (gwan...@carson.u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: In article <1993Jun23....@mks.com> vik...@mks.com (Viktor Haag) writes:
>: >Hmmm, from my point of view, I think Wagner's also attempting to say
>: >something *about* period comics by writing a period comic.
>: I find this a more defendable statement if Wagner's portryal of
>: Chinese Americans had any trace of psychological or historical reality.
>: As it is, I just find it bad writing.
>My point exactly! Not that his writing is bad, but that his portrayal
>of Chinese Americans _has_ no trace of psychological or historical
>reality. The whole point is, however, that they have a historical
>reality with respect to the _genre_ he is mimmicking. The title
>should be a dead give away -- Sandman _Mystery Theatre_.
Yet when does the mimicking end and a "true" portryal begin?
If he's trying to say something ABOUT the period comics, what IS
he trying to say? I see no statement, I see a perfect replication. And if
it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck.....
>What I _am_ saying is that Matt's a good enough writer that you should
>look beyond the obvious kneejerk reaction and hunt for what's _really
>going on_.
The problem with this issue is that there's NOTHING to be hunting
for. There is truly nothing there except the stereotype. And that's what
makes it bad writing. Given the questionable nature of the protrayal, given
the inherent contradiction of the stereotypes and given the clash between
reality and the stereotypes, it is simply bad writing to present the
stereotype in toto, with no trace of reality and with no trace of
real characterization in any of the Chinese characters. It really raises
the suspicion that the writers really doesn't understand the stereotypes
and where they came from.
It's that Wagner IS such a good writer that I find this
book to be so disappointing.
Damon B. Crumpler
all of this reminds me of the person who wrote in to
grendel war child 9 about wagner's HORRIBLE:) use of the gorilla
earlier in the series.
Wagner ripped on the guy, and pointed out several
reasons/motivations for his writing that scene.
if this stuff is his doing (my guess is yes), then
he does have a reson, and critisizing it now is just jumping the
gun.
also, i seriously doubt this is going to have any negative
effect on people's views towards orientals, but it will
most likely offend many.
the thing i didn't like about the issue was wesley-
i didn't even recognize him, as he's grown about 4-5 inches
and slimmed down considerable.
--
We dance around the ring and suppose, but The Secret lies in the
center and knows.(Frost) I know things that have been forgot(Sim)
Knowledge is evil.Infinity means everything is true.Maximal chaos
=maximal homogenaeity.(me) 4.66920(Feigenbaum) z=z(2)+c
Hector Lee
to the genre. Nevertheless, I still feel that it was poor judgement on the
part of Wagner (if he had a say in it) and/or Berger, the editor, who does
have final say regarding the content. Other homages did not use such
horrifically bad stereotyping to pay homage (I am thinking of Green Hornet and
All-Star Squadron), even though they have an equally justifiable reason for
doing so. The comic itself (so far) has not addressed the caricature art
style, and so I find it hard to believe that there is some other reason for it
at this point, and something so blatantly stereotypical ought be addressed
early on. It disturbs me that this style is found to be acceptable to use
without addressing the issue of its ofensiveness.
I believe Wagner is a good writer, and is probably a good person, but I also
believe that he has made an error, if he is, indeed, responsible. Berger has
definitely made an error, Watkiss is hopefully merely lousy/stupid/ignorant,
and the colorist the same.
Other Asians that look reasonable in homages to an earlier era: Chop-chop in
blackhawk, Tom in Green Lantern, Ninja in G.I.Combat, generic enemy in Sgt.
Rock, Unknown Soldier.
Hector Lee
just another theatre geek
>all of this reminds me of the person who wrote in to
>grendel war child 9 about wagner's HORRIBLE:) use of the gorilla
>earlier in the series.
>Wagner ripped on the guy, and pointed out several
>reasons/motivations for his writing that scene.
>if this stuff is his doing (my guess is yes), then
>he does have a reson, and critisizing it now is just jumping the
>gun.
The problem here is that all these motivations and reasons are
apparently in Wagner's head right now. There's nothing in the text to
indicate this. And the text is all I can go on right now.
That STILL makes it bad writing.
Andrew Solovay
>
>Other Asians that look reasonable in homages to an earlier era: ...
>generic enemy in Sgt. Rock, Unknown Soldier.
Hmm. Seems to me a generic enemy *ought* to be bright yellow. (With
the word "enemy" painted across his front in black.)
--
Andrew Solovay
"But that was in another country;
and besides, the wench is dead." ---Marlowe
the misfit
Asians is in SMT. Since I enjoy the hell out of Wagner's writing, I
put the blame on Watkiss. If you look at his recent 007 work in Dark
Horse Comics, you'll see that same physiologically impossible Asian
face in the folks depicted there. The coloring is better in DHC, so the
Lego-people yellow of SMT is another problem.
M. -- How does Watkiss expect *any* life form to see through those eyes?
--
------------------------ man...@iies.ecn.purdue.edu ------------------------
Nobody likes you. |BSE 1992: Software Engineering | Quod
Everybody hates you.|MA 1995: Creative Writing, Fiction| Scripsi
You're gonna lose. | You got a problem with that? | Scripsi.
James Hsiao
>
> The problem here is that all these motivations and reasons are
>apparently in Wagner's head right now. There's nothing in the text to
>indicate this. And the text is all I can go on right now.
>
> That STILL makes it bad writing.
>
Bad Writing? Did anyone think Watchmen was exceptionally tremendously awe-
inspiring and influential after the first issue? I'm sure it sparked
some interest, but I dont think many considered it the end-all-be-all of
comic books like they do today. How can someone judge the work if he/she
has merely seen the first issue of it? Why dont we all wait until at least
SMT6 comes out then we can proclaim the merits and demerits of Matt Wagner's
work on the title. If you've read BatmanGrendel1 or Mage or the Faces arc in
LOTDK, you should know that Wagner's work holds a great deal of weight in the
comic book writing industry.
Many people who interpret stuff(literature/film/etc.) will tell you that
there's always something more to a work than its surface. Such is the case in
Sandman, Watchmen, and many other comics of high merit. Perhaps that which
will unlock the "text" to more stimulating material will be in forthcoming
issues. Just dont assume the entire series will be trash because you didn't
like a single issue.
Oh and pick up a copy of DHP 10. John Watkiss does the art for a story
inside and as a previous poster mentioned, his depiction of Orientals in that
story is just as "stereotypical and offensive" as SMT.
James
P.S. sorry about that previous blank post.
*******************************************************************************
James Hsiao AOL:JamesHsi I Koma Naka Pee Sai? -- Fiji Native
Internet: jame...@aol.com I I have studied the human condition and have come
fre...@maple.circa.ufl.edu I to the conclusion that it is terminal--Me
Thomas Galloway
> Bad Writing? Did anyone think Watchmen was exceptionally tremendously awe-
> inspiring and influential after the first issue? I'm sure it sparked
> some interest, but I dont think many considered it the end-all-be-all of
> comic books like they do today.
Um, would you care to make a wee wager on that, laddie?
We net.comics old farts do recall that there was, to put it mildly,
considerable discussion about Watchmen after one issue. Can even prove it;
FTP the Watchmen archives, all 5 meg or so, from UToronto and take a look.
Now, an argument can be made that said discussion was based on a combination
of both the first issue, and for lack of a better term, pre-publication hype.
There was a lot of anticipation about Watchmen, and people had some knowledge
of what Moore and Gibbons hoped to accomplish. While for SMT, there was no
major hype about the issue, and certainly not what, if anything, is supposed
to be accomplished by the drawing and coloring style used for the Asians
in the story. So the difference here is that we have no clue, other than
what is actually in the issue, as to intent or even pre-issue expectations,
while for Watchmen we did.
"Gravely embarassed, most of my race retreated into passive observation of the
universe. They are called The Watchers. I hail from a splinter faction. We
watch, too -- but feel compelled to deliver piquant commentary on what we see.
For we are... The Critics." --The Critic, from SHE-HULK
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Sturm und Glenn
>> The problem here is that all these motivations and reasons are
>>apparently in Wagner's head right now. There's nothing in the text to
>>indicate this. And the text is all I can go on right now.
There's also his track record. I'm sorry but I'm having lot of
trouble taking these "racism" accusations seriously. This is, you
will remember, the same fellow that wrote Mage, Grendel, and the
Aerialist. Racism? From Wagner? I don't think so. Hang on a bit, I
know I will, it's one of my favorite titles.
You will also remember, I hope, that I've been complaining about the
pathetic coloring since the first issue. However, I'm spoiled to the
likes of Wagner himself, Joe Matt and Bernie Mireault and the like
coloring his stuff. There may actually be people with that putrid
pink skin color out there, too, but I've never met them. And I *like*
Watkiss, so there.
>> That STILL makes it bad writing.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I certainly
don't think so. Matt's art has always tended away from realism toward
extrapolation, it's absolutely unsurprising that he's using this
method. The most developed character in the first issue is of course
Dian's ex, Jimmy. He's a smooth shrewd operator able to manipulate
everyone around him (except of course our hero), in short, an
interesting villian. He's not Ming the Merciless, but he'll do. :) I
enjoyed the first issue and I think it'll work out to be a good story.
It's kind of sad, really, because my letter complaining about the
colorist will likely go ignored, being lost in a sea of accusations of
racism. They'll be deemed properly ludicrous and they'll probably
keep the guy on, out of righteous indignation. :( Ah well, shouldn't
have waited so long. I did notice Watkis adapted his style quite well
for color, opening it up a lot. But I still prefer the lush black
shadows of his b & w work in Ring of Roses.
Pax ex machina,
.............................................................................
"and sometimes we all need masks, eh? If the world around you wears a false
face, how does one confront it bare?"
---Matt Wagner, "Grendel: the Devil Inside"
g-car...@uchicago.edu, if you must know
///.,.,....,,,..,,,,,,,...,,.,...,,,,,.\\\.\..\.\\\.....\.\.\.\\\\\\\\\\
James Hsiao
>In article <20isrb$7...@cutter.clas.ufl.edu> fre...@maple.circa.ufl.edu writes:
>> Bad Writing? Did anyone think Watchmen was exceptionally tremendously awe-
>> inspiring and influential after the first issue? I'm sure it sparked
>> some interest, but I dont think many considered it the end-all-be-all of
>> comic books like they do today.
>
>Um, would you care to make a wee wager on that, laddie?
>
>We net.comics old farts do recall that there was, to put it mildly,
>considerable discussion about Watchmen after one issue. Can even prove it;
>FTP the Watchmen archives, all 5 meg or so, from UToronto and take a look.
>
>Now, an argument can be made that said discussion was based on a combination
>of both the first issue, and for lack of a better term, pre-publication hype.
>There was a lot of anticipation about Watchmen, and people had some knowledge
>of what Moore and Gibbons hoped to accomplish. While for SMT, there was no
>major hype about the issue, and certainly not what, if anything, is supposed
>to be accomplished by the drawing and coloring style used for the Asians
>in the story. So the difference here is that we have no clue, other than
>what is actually in the issue, as to intent or even pre-issue expectations,
>while for Watchmen we did.
Apologies. I wasnt really around for the first issue of Watchmen. I picked up
the issues and the tpb after they had all come out. Nevertheless, the point
I am trying to make is that to judge a comic book solely on the merits or
demerits of the first issue (in this case the first issue of an arc)
detracts from the whole purpose of a story arc. Did we think that Dream
was going to wage an all-out battle with Lucifer? Did we expect Lucifer to
surrender the key the hell? The benefits of a "story arc" include the suspense
that builds between issues. But the real benefit is the thought and
anticipation of the readers. What I was condemning is the viewpoint that
if Wagner's intentions are all in his head, it's bad writing. Taking that
assumption, then Watchmen was poor writing *when the first issue came out*.
You cannot judge a work objectively with imperfect information.
James
>
>tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
BTW, do you have the host name for UToronto? I really would like to get the
Watchmen archives.
just another theatre geek
>In article <20isrb$7...@cutter.clas.ufl.edu> fre...@maple.circa.ufl.edu writes:
>>> The problem here is that all these motivations and reasons are
>>>apparently in Wagner's head right now. There's nothing in the text to
>>>indicate this. And the text is all I can go on right now.
>There's also his track record. I'm sorry but I'm having lot of
>trouble taking these "racism" accusations seriously. This is, you
>will remember, the same fellow that wrote Mage, Grendel, and the
>Aerialist. Racism? From Wagner? I don't think so. Hang on a bit, I
>know I will, it's one of my favorite titles.
Ugh. Sorry, but I try not to bring outside stuff like track
records into this--it tends to devolve critical judgement into "It can't
be bad--it's by XXXX!"
(And if you want to bring this meta knowledge in, I can just
as easily say I'm disappointed by this writing BECAUSE of his reputation).
>>> That STILL makes it bad writing.
>Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I certainly
>don't think so. Matt's art has always tended away from realism toward
>extrapolation, it's absolutely unsurprising that he's using this
>method. The most developed character in the first issue is of course
>Dian's ex, Jimmy. He's a smooth shrewd operator able to manipulate
>everyone around him (except of course our hero), in short, an
>interesting villian. He's not Ming the Merciless, but he'll do.
Rather slight praise, doncha think, using a stereotype for
a measure of comparison?
Be that as it may, I don't buy him at all as a character. I don't
buy actions--they aren't REAL to me. He's not at all developed--
he's just a conglomeration of characteristics stuck together with no
discernable unifying thread that makes no sense given the conditions
that exist in an immigrant community.
Fooey. Being extrapolative means sloppy writing with respect
to this issue.
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, member, STOFF; Artistic Dir., PC Theatre
just another theatre geek
>> The problem here is that all these motivations and reasons are
>>apparently in Wagner's head right now. There's nothing in the text to
>>indicate this. And the text is all I can go on right now.
>> That STILL makes it bad writing.
>inspiring and influential after the first issue? I'm sure it sparked
>some interest, but I dont think many considered it the end-all-be-all of
>comic books like they do today. How can someone judge the work if he/she
>has merely seen the first issue of it?
well, because this >IS< a serial format, a writer has to play
to the strengths and weaknesses of the format. And in a serial format,
each segment should be strong enough to be judged on its own.
Why dont we all wait until at least
>SMT6 comes out then we can proclaim the merits and demerits of Matt Wagner's
>work on the title.
As a whole, yeah. And while there may be further development, I
see NOTHING leading to it.
> Many people who interpret stuff(literature/film/etc.) will tell you that
>there's always something more to a work than its surface. Such is the case in
>Sandman, Watchmen, and many other comics of high merit. Perhaps that which
>will unlock the "text" to more stimulating material will be in forthcoming
>issues.
Then that STILL makes the first issue poorly written for not
putting at least part of the steps in the first issue.
Just dont assume the entire series will be trash because you didn't
>like a single issue.
I'm not encouraged by it, however....
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, member, STOFF; Artistic Dir., PC Theatre
Sturm und Glenn
>In article <1993Jun28.0...@midway.uchicago.edu> lf...@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>> He's not Ming the Merciless, but he'll do.
>
> Rather slight praise, doncha think, using a stereotype for
>a measure of comparison?
No, not at all, most comic book or strip characters are "stereotypes"
in the sense you're using. Ming the Merciless is one of the greatest
villians ever created, that's not faint praise. But as I said, I
found Jimmy an interesting character, I would say cartoonishly drawn,
obviously you're saying stereotypically so, and you find the shorthand
offensive, which is your right. I like the art, and I find all the
skin tones offensive, so that's irrelevant.
> Be that as it may, I don't buy him at all as a character. I don't
>buy actions--they aren't REAL to me. He's not at all developed--
>he's just a conglomeration of characteristics stuck together with no
>discernable unifying thread that makes no sense given the conditions
>that exist in an immigrant community.
Well, he hasn't done much of anything yet, we've just been told a bit
about his history and who he is. I'm not sure what the conglomeration
line exactly means, (I myself have no discernable unifying thread, and
it would probably make no sense were I to have such a thing :) but
this isn't an immigrant community, it's a "pulp world" which never
existed, anymore than Crime Alley or the Shadow's world. No one
complains at comic depictions of the Mafia or other gangs, do they? I
kinda doubt they were all fat, cigar-smoking stereotypes either, or
that the Nazis are all blond, all skinheads are fascist, or that
street gangs members universally wear 'X' caps, etc. That's not to
mention that all the heroes look like Charles Atlas and the inginues
are all Playboy Bunnies. :) The ethnic depictions of yesteryear were
far more exagerated and have rightfully been left in the past, we'll
never see another Ebony or another cover like Detective #1, and that's
as it should be, but this was nothing to be compared to those, IMO. I
believe we were supposed to match up Wes and Jimmy noting their
similarities and differences and mentally set the stage for what's to
come, the "action" as much as there may be will come later. Dian is
the one that came off most stereotypical to me. In any case, he's set
up an interesting triangle, and we'll see how it plays out. However,
should you want to shoot the colorist, I'll provide a weapon. :)
> Fooey. Being extrapolative means sloppy writing with respect
>to this issue.
I'll still don't get the "sloppy" part. It's sounds like you find it
offensive, in which case you should write them to that effect and drop
the title in protest. That's what I would do. The story is already
more complicated than 90% of it's competition only one issue in. It
doesn't follow that everyone will like it, of course, but sloppy it
ain't. As to track record, well, Matt's always been on the cutting
edge of fairness to the alternatives to WASP in ethnicity, sexuality
or lifestyle -- that's an observation, not an opinion -- and it's a
bit bizaare for me to think of his work being perceived as racist.
How I judge any writer is in comparison to what else is available, of
course, but I also expect more from writers I respect. There are only
a handful of writers that rarely or never let me down, Wagner is one
of them, and this story is no exception. IMO, you're just letting
your opinion of the art prevent you from enjoying the story. But
that's just my opinion, most everyone has one. :) I'd've bought it
just for the "ahead" line, I think.
Pax ex machina,
............................................................
"Holy Wednesday ... when the Passion according to Saint Luke
is read. This proved impossible, though, when it was
discovered that Grendel had planted a homing beacon in
St. Elvis Cathedral that attracted the Tower's entire
pigeon population to roost there overnight"
--- Matt Wagner
g-car...@uchicago.edu, if you must know
............................................................
Tom Galloway
> BTW, do you have the host name for UToronto? I really would like to get the
> Watchmen archives.
Check the FAQ, which should be posted to r.a.c.info within the next week.
"Best Place to Find Parking: Nowhere.
Thirteen places got votes, but we're not telling you where they are."
- "Best of Ann Arbor" Poll Results, _Michigan Daily_
tyg t...@Hq.ileaf.com
just another theatre geek
>In article <20n7jk$8...@news.u.washington.edu> gwan...@carson.u.washington.edu (just another theatre geek) writes:
>>In article <1993Jun28.0...@midway.uchicago.edu> lf...@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>> He's not Ming the Merciless, but he'll do.
>> Rather slight praise, doncha think, using a stereotype for
>>a measure of comparison?
>No, not at all, most comic book or strip characters are "stereotypes"
>in the sense you're using.
Not quite, as Ming was out of the Fu Manchu School of Villains.
>> Be that as it may, I don't buy him at all as a character. I don't
>>buy actions--they aren't REAL to me. He's not at all developed--
>>he's just a conglomeration of characteristics stuck together with no
>>discernable unifying thread that makes no sense given the conditions
>>that exist in an immigrant community.
>Well, he hasn't done much of anything yet, we've just been told a bit
>about his history and who he is.
But it doesn't hang together from a historical sense. And it doesn't
hang together from a psychological sense. Yet the whole deal of the
series is to deal with hate crimes and psychological motivations; hence the
characters HAVE to have some sort of psychological versimilutude.
I'm not sure what the conglomeration
>line exactly means, (I myself have no discernable unifying thread, and
>it would probably make no sense were I to have such a thing :) but
>this isn't an immigrant community, it's a "pulp world" which never
>existed, anymore than Crime Alley or the Shadow's world. No one
>complains at comic depictions of the Mafia or other gangs, do they? I
>kinda doubt they were all fat, cigar-smoking stereotypes either, or
>that the Nazis are all blond, all skinheads are fascist, or that
>street gangs members universally wear 'X' caps, etc. That's not to
>mention that all the heroes look like Charles Atlas and the inginues
>are all Playboy Bunnies. :) The ethnic depictions of yesteryear were
>far more exagerated and have rightfully been left in the past, we'll
>never see another Ebony or another cover like Detective #1, and that's
>as it should be, but this was nothing to be compared to those, IMO.
And that's the whole point. The ethnic depictions were NOT left
in the past; these are taken whole cloth from yesteryear, with no
attempt at humanization or dimensionality of character. Art wise, there
simply is no difference between SMT #5 and, say, DC's version of
Fu Manchu, circa 1938; character wise, things are fractionally better.
The excuse that this is a pulp world doesn't wash. Granted that there
are conventions to be met if we are to have a period piece, but there are
ways to fit a more realistic Chinatown into those conventions without
violating them. It is EXTREMELY bothersome to see these cliches used
with nary a change and with no visible reason to do so.
Neurotic Bob
> The excuse that this is a pulp world doesn't wash. Granted that
there
> are conventions to be met if we are to have a period piece, but there
are
> ways to fit a more realistic Chinatown into those conventions without
> violating them. It is EXTREMELY bothersome to see these cliches used
> with nary a change and with no visible reason to do so.
>
complaints stem from your perceptions of the story. So create one the way
you would like to perceive it.
And then, I am sure, there would still be plenty for us to criticize in
it.
My point here is that simply because you find one part of a comic lacking,
you out-of-hand condemn the rest of it. You have not provided any
substantiation to your claim of poor writing. It may be an opinion, but
that doesn't make it so, just as another's opinion that it is good writing
doesn't necessarily hold up. Personally, I certainly do not feel that
this is anywhere near Matt Wagner's best work, but that is far from saying
that it is bad. You have taken a dislike for the art, and extrapolated it
onto the writing. You don't like the charictarization? Fine, but as you
have said, this is a serial format. You can only get so much
charictarization/ character development in each issue without ignoring too
much of the plot. I, personally, feel that there was enough
characterization of Jimmy in this issue, his first appearance, to whet my
appetite for later issues and further development. I do not find this
poor writing. If we knew everything there is to know about the character
in the first issue, then there would be little reason to keep reading.
What we have gotten, for the most part, is what the other characters
(well, most of them anyway) have gotten: a surface impression, what the
character puts forth as his outer appearance. I suspect that we will find
a more thorough development of the character in the issues to come. At
least, I hope so. But I do not feel that there was anything over-lacking
in this single issue. If you choose not to read further, that is your
choice, and believe me I can understand. I plan to read on and enjoy.
--Dan'L
Sturm und Glenn
[our sniping snipped :)]
> And that's the whole point. The ethnic depictions were NOT left
>in the past; these are taken whole cloth from yesteryear, with no
>attempt at humanization or dimensionality of character. Art wise, there
>simply is no difference between SMT #5 and, say, DC's version of
>Fu Manchu, circa 1938; character wise, things are fractionally better.
OK, if that's really what you think, we have a really strong
disagreement and I doubt we're going to be able to get by it, as I
think that's a really ridiculous statement. Please don't take this as
a flame, as I don't mean it that way, but IMO, this has very little in
common with the golden-age depictions of Chinese and Japanese that I'm
familiar with. No foot-long moustaches on hunched-over oddly-garbed
spider guys here. :) Not enough incense and opium in the air either
and where the heck is Holmes, anyway? :) Art-wise there's a great deal
of difference, and character-wise things are far more than
"fractionally better". It may not be different enough or better
enough to your taste, but it is not the same or even all that similar.
As I said, a fundamental difference of opinion. Nothing wrong with
that, of course. :)
> The excuse that this is a pulp world doesn't wash. Granted that there
>are conventions to be met if we are to have a period piece, but there are
>ways to fit a more realistic Chinatown into those conventions without
>violating them. It is EXTREMELY bothersome to see these cliches used
>with nary a change and with no visible reason to do so.
Again I disagree rather strongly with "nary a change". I'm also
unsure as to the fitness of a "realistic" Chinatown to this title.
(However conventions should be violated -- long, loud and often :).
Of course you're right that it could be more realistic, but I don't
know that it's desirable in the context of an unrealistic title. I
like Wagner, but he's not a very realistic writer, at least not when
it comes to the setting. But I hope you write in, it makes for good
lettercols. :)
Stay tuned for next week's installment of "My Opinion and Welcome To
It" : ) : ) : )
Pax ex machina,
Glenn
......................................................................
"I know what I experienced ..... and I'm not crazy!"
"Reality is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes"
--- My Life with the Thrill Kill Cult
James Hsiao
> The excuse that this is a pulp world doesn't wash. Granted that there
>are conventions to be met if we are to have a period piece, but there are
>ways to fit a more realistic Chinatown into those conventions without
>violating them. It is EXTREMELY bothersome to see these cliches used
>with nary a change and with no visible reason to do so.
>
DHP 10. John Watkiss' art for the James Bond story which depicts the Oriental
just as stereotypical as in SMT. What you find bothersome about the writing,
simply seems to be a symptom of the art.
What did you think of the writing of
the first four issues? IMO, I found Wagner to be continuing his current
methods of characterizations, etc. in the book. I didnt find them thin or
stereotypical in the first four, I dont find them thin or stereotypical now.
Upon first reading, I took the story at face value-- a story. It had the
elements of an exposition, a building, and miniature climaxes, etc. Sure
the art is offensive, but does that detract from the writing?
Some Questions:
Have you written DC and found out who is responsible for the depiction of the
Chinese in that way? Are you positive the Wagner is responsible? The are not
flames, but
simple questions that all of us in this discussion must ask ourselves. Do we
have all the information to judge Wagner's writing? Watkiss' art? I may
condemn someone's writing, but how do I know it wasn't a misconception of the
artist?
Like the discussion of Sandman 52, we do not have perfect information
concerning the motives and plans of Wagner or Gaiman. We do not know the
planned outcomes of each of these storylines. But if we cannot find something
to goad us on, to spur our interest, we should not condemn the work as poor.
Incomplete perhaps, but thats the nature of the genre. It is, again, like
Watchmen--I did not find some of the most interesting stylistic aspects of the
issues until a second or third reading. Does that make it poor writing? No, I
simply had to look harder--to find the little secrets of Gibbons'
unconventionally revealing artwork, to find the conventions of Moore's
strongest tropes.
James