JACK KIRBY TRIBUTE
hi...@uamont.edu
Both companies owe a lot to Kirby. Without Kirby Marvel would be
nothing. I'd like to see some special projects from each company paying
tribute to Kirby's work. Marvel's tribute could feature Captain America,
the Fantastic Four, the Silver Surfer, Thor and tons of other Kirby created
characters (yes KIRBY created these characters not Stan Lee).
DC could have their own projects featuring the New Gods, Darkseid, The
Demon, the Challengers of the Unknown and the Guardian.
Of course, the rumored John Byrne DC/Marvel crossover would also be nice.
Michael Brown
being guests in DC titles. For instance, we just had an appearance of
Darkseid and the gang with a dash of the New Gods in the Super-titles,
There's the Guardians of Metropolis mini-series which has scads of Kirby
characters in it (BTW IMHO this book could hold water as an ongoing series).
Plus, there's talk of The Deep Six emerging in Aquaman.
Kirby characters are eeking (is this a word?) into some of DC's stories and
I can just hope that the trend continues to honor the "King".
-- Michael Brown
mdb...@ualr.edu
***********************************************************************
"Lo! The King approaches!" -- Bugs Bunny
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Mark Evanier
has some hardcover reprint collections on its long-range schedule...meaning
they may be published in a few years. (Sales on their reprints are way down
and they're being very cautious about what they put out...)
HOWEVER, both companies have pledged support to a fancy tribute book that
Frank Miller and I are compiling. Details should be announced around
Christmas time as we are currently in the process of straightening out
some legal problems.
Daniel J. Pucca
hi...@uamont.edu writes:
>DC could have their own projects featuring the New Gods, Darkseid, The
>Demon, the Challengers of the Unknown and the Guardian.
>
>Of course, the rumored John Byrne DC/Marvel crossover would also be nice.
seminar that he has proposed a (are you ready for this?) DARKSEID versus
GALACTUS DC/Marvel crossover. I believe Marvel also wants to throw in the
Silver Surfer, but Byrne feels a battle between the mentioned characters
would be "impressive enough" as is.
Pucca
Douglas Eugene Rockstead
John Sinnott <jo...@cais2.cais.com> wrote:
>Let me be the first to jump in and say that, as much as I admire Jack
>Kirby, he did not create the above listed charectors (with the possible
>exception to the Silver Surfer.) He WAS co-creator on all of them, but
>just because Jack got the shaft, does not mean that Stan Lee did not help
>in creating Thor, the FF and reviving Cap. Captain America, of course,
>was created by Jack Kirby AND Joe Simon.
>-John, giving credit where credit is due.
John, just can't help but notice...any relation to Joe the guy who inked
many F.F. stories over Jack Kirby's Pencils? Can't Help myself, I had to
ask. I do agree with you though, Stan Lee had a lot to do with creating
the characters, although, without Jack we'd all be saying Stan who???
Douglas E. Rockstead,
na...@cs.utexas.edu
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, DP1...@american.edu (Daniel J. Pucca) says:
>It's no rumor. John Byrne related a few weeks ago in a Smithsonian Institute
>seminar that he has proposed a (are you ready for this?) DARKSEID versus
>GALACTUS DC/Marvel crossover. I believe Marvel also wants to throw in the
>Silver Surfer, but Byrne feels a battle between the mentioned characters
>would be "impressive enough" as is.
Well, gosh, could Galactus *EAT* Apokalips? I mean really, talk about
indigestion. Even Tenzil Kem might hesitate at such a project, and *he*
can eat *anything.* :)
--
George Foreman *IS* the Heavyweight champion of the WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!
John Sinnott
>Is either DC or Marvel working on a tribute to the legendary Jack Kirby?
>Both companies owe a lot to Kirby. Without Kirby Marvel would be
>nothing. I'd like to see some special projects from each company paying
>tribute to Kirby's work. Marvel's tribute could feature Captain America,
>the Fantastic Four, the Silver Surfer, Thor and tons of other Kirby created
>characters (yes KIRBY created these characters not Stan Lee).
>
Nick Eden
Thor? Reaches over to bookshelf and pulls out the Origins of Marvel
Comics. Even Lee admits that Larry Leiber wrote the first issue. He
claims that he had the idea of course, but it doesn seem that Stan Lee is
a tiny bit prone to claiming more credit than he is due.
Or on the FF (Mark Evanier please confirm) I had heard that Lee sent kiby
plots along the lines of "Have them fight God" [Galactus in ff47-50] or
"Hey Jack, could we use Dr Doom and the Silver Surfer? Maybe Doom could
steal the Surfer's board?" [Doom with power cosmic ff's 55-59 ish]
In his day Lee was a great dialoguer. Alas he now claims to have created
all the characters he wrote and since we know this not to be fully true
we assume that it is wholey false.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What would have happened of (a) Bouadicea had been the daughter of Edward
the Confessor? (b) Canute had suceeded in sitting on the waves?
Does it matter?
Kevin Maroney
Nick Eden <phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>Or on the FF (Mark Evanier please confirm) I had heard that Lee sent kiby
>plots along the lines of "Have them fight God" [Galactus in ff47-50] or
>"Hey Jack, could we use Dr Doom and the Silver Surfer? Maybe Doom could
>steal the Surfer's board?" [Doom with power cosmic ff's 55-59 ish]
Okay, settle down, folks, and let's pour some sand on this...
There are people around who would know more about this than I, but it
seems clear that the Lee/Kirby collaboration changed from issue to issue
on all of the Marvel titles. It is also clear that Kirby should,
certainly, have been credited with (at least) co-plotter on most or all
of the issues of FF which he did with Lee, and Lee's hogging of the glory
has always been regretable.
However, it is also clear that Lee, on most issues, did more than provide
a single-sentence plot springboard and after-the-fact dialogue.
Two examples best illustrate this. The first is the case of the Sivler
Surfer. No one, not even Lee, disputes the fact that Kirby created the
character. Lee has many times related his surprise upon seeing the pages
of FF #48 and finding this shining guy on a surfboard, and asking Kirby
who this character was. It is clear that Kirby both developed the idea of
Galactus having a herald and created the character, visually, from
scratch.
However, it is also clear (though perhaps less universally so) that Kirby
intended the character as a minor part of the story, no more significant
than "The Punisher", the android guardian whom Galactus sets on the FF
while he busys himself with the recreation of the energy-draining
machines. Lee was the one who was caught up with the Surfer, and who
decided that he should be central to the story in #49-50, and Lee who
gave the Surfer his angst and torment.
In the months following FF #50, both Lee and Kirby developed their own
ideas of what to do with the Surfer. Lee's vision won out because he
could go around Kirby's back and get another artist to draw his (Lee's)
stories of the Surfer, while Kirby could not get another writer or
publisher to work on his vision of the Surfer. I'm not saying this was a
good thing for Lee to have done, but it is clear that it is Lee's vision
of the Surfer which has been allowed to survive, not Kirby's.
As I was once quoted on NPR, "Kirby created the Surfer, except for his
character, motivation, history, and emotional power- in short, everything
which makes the Surfer what he is today." Kirby might have had a vision
of the Surfer which was as powerful and as memorable, but it is Lee's
that survives.
The other example is one John Byrne wrote about in a CBG lettercolumn
within the last year. He had reason to examine the original, undialogued
art from the origin story of the Red Skull. He argued that it was clear
from the art, and from Kirby's notes on the art, that the story Kirby had
told was significantly different from the story which ended up seeing
print-- a difference communicated completely in dialogue.
In Kirby's original storyline, the bellhop is just a walk-in character;
it was Lee who told, through dialogue, of Hitler's rage at his
ineffective SS agents and Lee who had Hitler vow to make "this bellboy" a
greater warrior than any other soldier. Byrne argued, and I tend to
agree, that this element of the story is crucial to the emotional impact
of the story, making the Red Skull more effectively the true nemesis of
Captain America, more completely and convincingly his "opposite number".
At the root, the question is insoluble. Lee and Kirby had very different
views of their collaboration, and reported factually irreconcilable
stories of their collaborations. Neither man could be expected to give a
completely unbiased view of their working relationship even while they
were doing it, and their stories have become more divergent with the
passage of years.
I personally would prefer to view their relationship as a collaboration,
both contributing significantly to the other's work and improving it. I
feel that none of the work either man did before or after their
collaboration was as good as their work together, and most of it feels
very different from their work together.
(Which is not so say that their non-collaborative work was completely
dissimilar, only to say that you can easily tell pre- or post-Lee Kirby
from Lee and Kirby without difficulty.)
Anyway. Kirby deserves more credit than he has officially gotten from
Marvel; Lee deserves more credit than he has gotten from fandom. In their
own way, each was vital to the quality of Marvel comics, and neither
should be overlooked.
--
Kevin J. Maroney|k...@panix.com|Proud to be a Maroney|Proud to be a Yonker
Never send money to someone who has the language skills of a rutabaga.
Mark Evanier
>However, it is also clear that Lee, on most issues, did more than provide
>a single-sentence plot springboard and after-the-fact dialogue.
springboard -- I have quite a few of them in my files -- and, for some
issues, he provided no plot whatsoever. And has said so on many occasions.
>As I was once quoted on NPR, "Kirby created the Surfer, except for his
>character, motivation, history, and emotional power- in short, everything
>which makes the Surfer what he is today." Kirby might have had a vision
>of the Surfer which was as powerful and as memorable, but it is Lee's
>that survives.
and motivation for the character were clearly established in Jack's art and
marginal notes.
>The other example is one John Byrne wrote about in a CBG lettercolumn
>within the last year. He had reason to examine the original, undialogued
>art from the origin story of the Red Skull. He argued that it was clear
>from the art, and from Kirby's notes on the art, that the story Kirby had
>told was significantly different from the story which ended up seeing
>print-- a difference communicated completely in dialogue.
examples of Lee deviating from what Kirby had intended.
>Anyway. Kirby deserves more credit than he has officially gotten from
>Marvel; Lee deserves more credit than he has gotten from fandom. In their
>own way, each was vital to the quality of Marvel comics, and neither
>should be overlooked.
John Sinnott
>
>
>In his day Lee was a great dialoguer. Alas he now claims to have created
>all the characters he wrote and since we know this not to be fully true
>we assume that it is wholey false.
>
>
for a charector and writing the dialoge creating (at least in part?)
-John
Andrew Rilstone
> In his day Lee was a great dialoguer. Alas he now claims to have created
> all the characters he wrote and since we know this not to be fully true
> we assume that it is wholey false.
When you think of the Silver Surfer, you think of long moralistic
speeches.
When you think of Spiderman, you think of wise cracks.
When you think of Thor, you think of long winded speeches with the
thees and thous in the wrong place.
When you think of Doctor Strange, you think of the Hoary Hosts of Agamattos
Crimson Bands.
When you think of Ben Grimm, you think of, well, Ben Grimm.
Strikingly, in Origins of Marvel Comics, that is pretty much the
way Lee describes things - the minute he saw the Silver Surfer, he
knew he had to give him pseudo religious dialogue; he agonised for
ages about how to make Doctor Strange's spells sound right; he thought
it would be better if the Thing talked like an ordinary person, etc.
His input was the characters dialogue.
Our enjoyment of the characters is SIGNIFICANTLY
influenced by the personae that Lee created for them. (Kirby's ham fisted
dialgue is one of the things which spoils New Gods.) To say that Thor is
purely Kirby's pencils and not at all Lee's dialgue is facile. But that
is quite different from saying that Lee created the character.
It is also significant that Kirby has a habit of drawing things because
they look good, and Lee's dialogue often rationalised them (e.g the
cruise missile that the Asgardian gods send against Mangog becomes am
"Odinic Power Arrow" or some such.) And I think that Kirby's plotting
tended to be more disciplined when he was working with a collaborator.
Kirby is the genius; Lee was the partner who encouraged and polished
some of Kirby's best work.
None of this justifies the fact that Lee and his organisation treated
Kirby like dirt after the event, of course.
--
Andrew Rilstone and...@aslan.demon.co.uk
*************************************************************************
"Ah! Don't say that you agree with me. When people
agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde.
*************************************************************************
Abhay Khosla
On Mon, 14 Nov 1994 r...@haslam.cnet.att.com wrote:
> In article <3a0qsu$s...@im4u2.cs.utexas.edu>,
> Douglas Eugene Rockstead <na...@cs.utexas.edu> wrote:
> I don't really think we'd be saying Stan who???? What was Jack's involvement
> in Spider-man, Dr. Strange, Daredevil, Iron Man, Ant Man / Giant Man / wasp?
> Stan was involved in all of these was he not?
Jack Kirby had a huge involvement in Iron Man I believe, doing most of
the early design work. Ant/Giant Man and Wasp were also Kirby
characters, appearing in the Avengers regardless. Also, he
did have some small involvement in Spider-Man, and I think did one of the
early designs of Daredevil. That was the beauty of the early years. If
a character wasn't Kirby, it was Wally Wood or Steve Ditko.
>
> I'd have to agree that Jack was involved in the general plotting, I think
> history has shown that Jack really couldn't write tight, cohesive stories.
> Take a look at what happened one he was given the go ahead. Kamandi?
> The usual Kirby art married to a good premise married to fair dialog and
> plotting. Sandman? The same. New Gods trilogy? Some of Jack's best art
> tied to a fantastic premise. Some excellent characters were developed but
> so were some truly awful characters ( Ben Turpin, Serafin (sp)
> Even his Topps stuff and the Phantom Force were only ok. For the most
> part, the magic that made the FF and Thor and the others just wasn't there.
> I believe that magic the due to the team of Lee and Kirby, the sum of
> the parts, so to speak.
> Bob Rex
>
Kirby was the concept man, had been for his entire life. He had been in
the business forever and had always been a huge seller. I agree though,
Lee did add something, his dialogue really polished things. Creditting
one over the other is pointless.
Even still, I love the ideas even if the execution suffered. The 4th
World just has too much to it, and I think ranks up with any of his
Marvel creations.
Really, I'd rather see people less focused on who created the characters
and more focused on their horrible treatment nowadays. Are the New Gods
Dan Jurgens playthings now? (metron laughing? Uh...no....) I'm afraid to
talk about most of the Marvel stuff....
Still trying to forget the whole FF Doom-Reed Spoiler....(Gee, saw the
word Spoiler but I never took it so seriously...)
-Abhay
akh...@umich.edu
-Rex, Robert S.
>John Sinnott <jo...@cais2.cais.com> wrote:
>>Let me be the first to jump in and say that, as much as I admire Jack
>>Kirby, he did not create the above listed charectors (with the possible
>>exception to the Silver Surfer.)
>
>the characters, although, without Jack we'd all be saying Stan who???
>
in Spider-man, Dr. Strange, Daredevil, Iron Man, Ant Man / Giant Man / wasp?
Stan was involved in all of these was he not?
I'd have to agree that Jack was involved in the general plotting, I think
Andrew Rilstone
> However, it is also clear (though perhaps less universally so) that Kirby
> intended the character as a minor part of the story, no more significant
> than "The Punisher", the android guardian whom Galactus sets on the FF
> while he busys himself with the recreation of the energy-draining
> machines. Lee was the one who was caught up with the Surfer, and who
> decided that he should be central to the story in #49-50, and Lee who
> gave the Surfer his angst and torment.
Agreed.
The angst-and-torment didn't really come in until the Lee-Buscema Surfer
series did it? And certainly the silly origin story only came in
there. The Surfer in F.F was very alien, and with no hint that he was once
human. I think this (Kirby's) view of the character was kept up through
his (the Surfer's) early appearances: the one where he fights the Thing
the one where he pretends to be a mad villain
in order to unite the human race; the one where Doctor Doom steals his power.
I remember an essay on the Surfer in FOOM (oboy I'm old) that said that
his life with Galactus had caused him to forget his previous existence, to the
extent of fogetting what it was like to eat: sound like ret-con to me!
Kirby's vision of the character was of a sort of Miltonic Lucifier: the
one who had the guts to stand up to God and so got kicked out
of paradise. Lee was determined to make him a Christ figure, which (I guess)
is why the origin story was brought in: so Norrin Radd could be shown
to have given his life to save the world. For my part, I prefer the original
version of the character in the F.F.
Having said that, the Silver Surfer graphic novel which was the last Lee-Kirby
collaboration used the Revised Silver Surfer, and was one of the best things
either of them ever did.
Mark Evanier
>I don't really think we'd be saying Stan who???? What was Jack's involvement
>in Spider-man, Dr. Strange, Daredevil, Iron Man, Ant Man / Giant Man / wasp?
he designed Iron Man's costume and most of his early villains and he did the
first Ant Man stories.
>Take a look at what happened one he was given the go ahead. Kamandi?
>The usual Kirby art married to a good premise married to fair dialog and
>plotting. Sandman? The same. New Gods trilogy? Some of Jack's best art
>tied to a fantastic premise. Some excellent characters were developed but
>so were some truly awful characters ( Ben Turpin, Serafin (sp)
>Even his Topps stuff and the Phantom Force were only ok. For the most
>part, the magic that made the FF and Thor and the others just wasn't there.
who think it was the best thing in comics at the time.
Jack didn't write Sandman or the Topps material...and only parts of Phantom
Force. I don't know that it's fair to judge a man by the work he did late
in life; it's like looking at Willie Mays' last few years playing baseball,
when he was batting .135 and making a judgement about his whole career.
Y'know, Jerry Siegel never again had an idea as good as SUPERMAN but the bad
stuff he did later doesn't mean he didn't co-create SUPERMAN.
I would not argue with anyone who preferred Lee and Kirby together to anything
they did separately...but Kirby had a pretty good track record BEFORE he
teamed with Stan and his work after has some golden moments in it. In fact,
it has been pointed out that Kirby created more recurring comic book
characters AFTER he split with Stan than any other human being created in
their entire career. No doubt he struck out a number of times but, to get
back to baseball analogies, no one else even stepped up to bat to create
new books more than once or twice in that period.
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, lf...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Eyes Without A Glenn) says:
>In article <5080cGx.m...@delphi.com> Mark Evanier <marke...@delphi.com> writes:
>>ME: Kamandi was a very popular comic and the New Gods material still has fans
>>who think it was the best thing in comics at the time.
>
>mainstream that comes close from that particular period (early '70s)
>would be the Wein/Wrightson Swamp Thing run, IMO. I've also got a
>soft spot in my head, er, heart for Plop, but it's not exactly the
>same thing. :-)
I too liked the New Gods and Swamp Thing. It was later but I would put
Howard the Duck in the same category. Neal Adams Batman was close.
Also, the GL/GA series by O'Neil and Adams.
My choice for the worst comic from that era would probably be "Wonder
Feminist." :)
Eyes Without A Glenn
>who think it was the best thing in comics at the time.
I'd agree with that New Gods assessment. The only thing in the
mainstream that comes close from that particular period (early '70s)
would be the Wein/Wrightson Swamp Thing run, IMO. I've also got a
soft spot in my head, er, heart for Plop, but it's not exactly the
same thing. :-)
Pax ex machina,
Glenn
......................................................................
"His body reacted with the filth ... the rot ... the decay ...
to produce a misshapen mockery of life,
no longer a man, but a .... Net Thing!"
g-car...@uchicago.edu, if you must know
......................................................................
Nick Eden
>the characters, although, without Jack we'd all be saying Stan who???
> >
> I don't really think we'd be saying Stan who???? What was Jack's
> Giant Man / wasp?Stan was involved in all of these was he not?
> > I'd have to agree that Jack was involved in the general plotting, I
> think history has shown that Jack really couldn't write tight, cohesive
> Kamandi? The usual Kirby art married to a good premise married to fair
> best arttied to a fantastic premise. Some excellent characters were
> developed butso were some truly awful characters ( Ben Turpin, Serafin
> (sp)Even his Topps stuff and the Phantom Force were only ok. For the
> mostpart, the magic that made the FF and Thor and the others just wasn't
> there.I believe that magic the due to the team of Lee and Kirby, the sum
> ofthe parts, so to speak.
> Bob Rex
We can't really blame the Topps stuff on Kirby. He didn't seem to have
any significant part in their creation (he didn't like, write them, or
draw them). Phantom Force was written by someone else, and anyway both of
these things are from the mind of a very old, dying genius. If he can't
fade a little then when can he.
But Turpin? You don't get a buzz when you read 'The Death Wish of
Terrible Turpin'? Strange guy. While most people cite the Glory Barge as
being the greatest New Gods story, that was mine - the issue that
convinced me that New Gods was getting worked up about.
And then there's the Eternals.... When Gods walked the Earth (and draw
comics!)
Eyes Without A Glenn
>
>I too liked the New Gods and Swamp Thing. It was later but I would put
>Howard the Duck in the same category. Neal Adams Batman was close.
>Also, the GL/GA series by O'Neil and Adams.
>
>My choice for the worst comic from that era would probably be "Wonder
>Feminist." :)
You mean the I Ching version? I found a bunch of those a couple of
years ago in a quarter box and re-read 'em. I really dig those,
probably because they are so cheesy. :-) Especially the War of the
Gods or whatever story where you've got Princess Di doing the Kung Fu
thing in the white poly pants suit and speaking the hip dialogue with
the likes of Mars (her blind asian mentor kickin' Greek God butt at
her side, natch). The weird thing is I didn't care for Sekowsky too
much except for this particular series, where I think it works great.
Kinda like an early Jackie Chan flick or something. >B^) Not as wierd
as the best Jimmy Olsens, but not bad...
Pax ex machina,
Glenn
......................................................................
"Oh no, there goes Tokyo, go, go, Godzilla!"
"Oh no, they say he's got to go, Godzilla!"
--- BOC
Christian Lichtner
: Is either DC or Marvel working on a tribute to the legendary Jack Kirby?
: Both companies owe a lot to Kirby. Without Kirby Marvel would be
: nothing. I'd like to see some special projects from each company paying
: tribute to Kirby's work. Marvel's tribute could feature Captain America,
: the Fantastic Four, the Silver Surfer, Thor and tons of other Kirby created
: characters (yes KIRBY created these characters not Stan Lee).
At this point, I would just settle for some monetary compensation to the
survivors of each creator - since Marvel has been more than greedy with
these two... (read Frank Millers letterpage in the new Sin City.)
--later chris
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, lf...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Eyes Without A Glenn) says:
>In article <3abeqm$j...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ma...@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael A. Chary) writes
>>My choice for the worst comic from that era would probably be "Wonder
>>Feminist." :)
>You mean the I Ching version? I found a bunch of those a couple of
>years ago in a quarter box and re-read 'em. I really dig those,
>probably because they are so cheesy. :-) Especially the War of the
>Gods or whatever story where you've got Princess Di doing the Kung Fu
>thing in the white poly pants suit and speaking the hip dialogue with
>the likes of Mars (her blind asian mentor kickin' Greek God butt at
>her side, natch). The weird thing is I didn't care for Sekowsky too
>much except for this particular series, where I think it works great.
>Kinda like an early Jackie Chan flick or something. >B^) Not as wierd
>as the best Jimmy Olsens, but not bad...
Glenn now officially has *NO* artistic integrity :)
I like "Kung Fu" but I *hated* those stories. At the time and for years
after they were deservedly reviled. But now they have come undwer the
influence of a sort of pathetic
revisionism. Pete Coogan wants to write a paper about Tie Di as I call
that particular version of the character and the Forever people.
Anyway, Glenn's a great guy so I'll let this particular character flaw pass
but, jeez, brrrrrr, those books were bad. :):):)
--
HOLIDAY COOKING TIP: Pan Dripping Gravy without Roux. A Roux is useful but
often not necessary in making pan gravy, the important thing for making quick,
smooth, thick gravy is to keep the drippings *hot*. Start to boil them, and
a tspn of water per cup of drippings and then *WHIP* in a small amount of flour
Andrew Rilstone
> However, it is also clear (though perhaps less universally so) that Kirby
> intended the character as a minor part of the story, no more significant
> than "The Punisher", the android guardian whom Galactus sets on the FF
> while he busys himself with the recreation of the energy-draining
> machines. Lee was the one who was caught up with the Surfer, and who
> decided that he should be central to the story in #49-50, and Lee who
> gave the Surfer his angst and torment.
I've just been checking the issues in question.
In #48, the Surfer is shown coming to earth and signalling Galactus,
whereapon he is punched by Ben Grimm and falls off the building. The Watcher
says that a fall couldn't hurt the Surfer, "it was simply the easiest way
for him to depart" - which sounds as if it could be a Lee rationalisation
of Kirby pictures. At any rate, we don't see any more of the Surfer that issue.
He doesn't get any dialogue, and appears for about a dozen panels.
In #49, he is shown meeting and befriending Alicia, and deciding that destroying
the earth would be Bad Thing. He is already using the sub-Thor dialogue
("Nay, it is supremely credible; earth is but a twinkling dot, a paltry
pebble in the vastness of space") but doesn't have any of his latter angst.
Not only does he not know what eating means, he says he doesn't understand
what Alicia means by "nobility." He has also "never before" understood
beauty, "never felt this new sensation, this thing some call...pity"
and "for the first time within memory" he has "found something
worth protecting." Hard luck, Shalla...
Issue #50 is split about equally between the Surfer confronting Galactus
and the Torch getting the Ultimate Plot Device from Galactus's base.
It could very well be that the Surfer was introduced as a minor character
in #48; and that when the Thing knocks him out, that was the last Kirby
intended us to see of him. If that is so, it would be interesting
to know what happened next: did Lee say "hey, Jack, let's see some
more of this Surfer dude in #49", or did he announce to him that the
force of the Thing's blow had knocked the Surfer through the window
of Alicia's apartment, or what?
Perhaps, as Reed might have said, we'll never know.
Mark Evanier
(some of it with Denny O'Neil), you weren't alone. It was the best-selling
period of WONDER WOMAN in about two decades at the time...unequalled since.
I personally thought it was a great comic. It might not have been a great
WONDER WOMAN comic but it was a great comic.
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, marke...@delphi.com (Mark Evanier) says:
>If you liked the "I Ching" WONDER WOMAN continuity that Mike Sekowsky did
>(some of it with Denny O'Neil), you weren't alone. It was the best-selling
>period of WONDER WOMAN in about two decades at the time...unequalled since.
Geez, no, I can't believe it. Let me just say that a lot of people liked
the Velvet Underground too. That doesn't mean
they were any good. I stand by that. :)
>I personally thought it was a great comic. It might not have been a great
>WONDER WOMAN comic but it was a great comic.
Well, you're certainly entitled to be just as wrong as you want :):):)
When Lou Reed and John Cale get recognized as great musicians, then fine
Tie Di can be a great comic book. :)
Eyes Without A Glenn
>
>In a previous article, lf...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Eyes Without A Glenn) says:
>
>>You mean the I Ching version? I found a bunch of those a couple of
>>years ago in a quarter box and re-read 'em. I really dig those,
>>probably because they are so cheesy. :-) Especially the War of the
>Glenn now officially has *NO* artistic integrity :)
What, this surprises you? >B^) I'd probably be the first in line to
buy Dark Cutey Bunny or an Underwater/Sugar & Spike crossover. I have
no shame.
> Pete Coogan wants to write a paper about Tie Di as I call
>that particular version of the character and the Forever people.
Groovy. I think somebody should do a Red Kryptonite checklist, too.
We're missing the boat with superhero angst out the wazoo, surrealism
was just a lot more interesting, especially early '70s DC surrealism.
:-) I once got invited to a party where everyone was supposed to dress
"'70s" but of course I told 'em, "hey, I *am* a '70s party." Talk
about a cheap costume. :-)
>Anyway, Glenn's a great guy so I'll let this particular character flaw pass
>but, jeez, brrrrrr, those books were bad. :):):)
I think the all-time worst is the one where Supergirl gives up
fighting crime to go off to Paris and become a supermodel. Superman
sends Princess Di (still in costume) off to talk some sense into her
but she also ends up with a French boyfriend. Cry kitsch and let
loose the chaines of domesticity! It's a true tear-jerker. >B^)
Ironicly, I think it's a "Brave and the Bold" but hey, it could have
been a "World's Finest." >B^) I'm not exactly sure whether it should
be the first up against the wall or the first into the vault, but I
gotta get into mylar one of these days. >B^)
Flower Power,
Glenn
......................................................................
"As I told you before, Steve Trevor, I can't marry you until my services
are no longer needed to battle crime and injustice"
--- Princess Di, B&B 28
g-car...@uchicago.edu, if you must know
<A HREF="http://www.digimark.net/wraith/">Phone Homey the Page!</A>
......................................................................
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, lf...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Eyes Without A Glenn) says:
>In article <3ah0lt$j...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ma...@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael A. Chary) writes:
>>In a previous article, lf...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Eyes Without A Glenn) says:
[Glenn says he liked the old 70's Wonder feminist]
>>Glenn now officially has *NO* artistic integrity :)
>
>What, this surprises you? >B^) I'd probably be the first in line to
>buy Dark Cutey Bunny or an Underwater/Sugar & Spike crossover. I have
>no shame.
I would buy the Sugar and Spike, but my guilty pleasure from that era are
the "groovy LSH" stories, and the Supergirl stuff. I also liked the
SHAZAM on the road with Charles Kuralt as Uncle Marvel :):):)
>
>> Pete Coogan wants to write a paper about Tie Di as I call
>>that particular version of the character and the Forever people.
>
>Groovy. I think somebody should do a Red Kryptonite checklist, too.
>We're missing the boat with superhero angst out the wazoo, surrealism
>was just a lot more interesting, especially early '70s DC surrealism.
There was a story in the late 70's or early 80's in Superman Family, wehere
Clark Kent disco dances to foil a bomnb threat.
>
>>Anyway, Glenn's a great guy so I'll let this particular character flaw pass
>>but, jeez, brrrrrr, those books were bad. :):):)
>
>I think the all-time worst is the one where Supergirl gives up
>fighting crime to go off to Paris and become a supermodel. Superman
>sends Princess Di (still in costume) off to talk some sense into her
>but she also ends up with a French boyfriend. Cry kitsch and let
Supergirl got the shaft in the '70 and afterward. They should have had her
move to the future and join the LSH full time, but instead they ketp trying
to turn her into a mixture of Mary Richards and Gidget. :)
Eyes Without A Glenn
>
>Supergirl got the shaft in the '70 and afterward. They should have had her
>move to the future and join the LSH full time, but instead they ketp trying
>to turn her into a mixture of Mary Richards and Gidget. :)
What *was* it with that Shaft dude anyway, could no woman resist his
charms?!? At least with Isaac Hayes you could see how that chain vest
could be a Babe Magnet, fer sure, but Shaft???? And if Kara was Mary
Richards, does that make Brainy..., oh, never mind.
Pax ex magilla,
Glenn
......................................................................
"Can you dig it?"
--- Isaac
"Thanks to the old Mary Tyler Moore Show,
the inside of your TV set is now covered with tiny hats."
--- Troy Hickman, "Made-up Stuff is Stranger than Fiction"
Bette Davis Glenns
>
>Well, you're certainly entitled to be just as wrong as you want :):):)
>When Lou Reed and John Cale get recognized as great musicians, then fine
>Tie Di can be a great comic book. :)
You've just never heard Cale do "Heartbreak Hotel", or Nico doin' "the
End", thass all. You'd convert; no one, but no one, can moan like
those guys! You probably hated the New York Dolls and the Stooges,
too, am I right? :-) And just who do you think are, bringing quality
into this, anyway? We didn't say it was good, we just said we like
'em. :-) That's a tie of a different dye altogether!
Come to think of it, Denny pretty much took her from being a Superman
analogue and turned her into much more of a Batman analogue. Denny
was always doing tricky stuff like that. :-) Anyway, that's probably
why I liked it so much, I always liked the Batman-Green Arrow types a
lot more than the Superman-Green Lantern types, Donovan
notwithsitting, they had *way* too much on me. :-) And I thought she
was pretty boring before that. Your milage obviously varied. A lot.
:-)
Pax ex machina,
Glenn
......................................................................
"Superfreak! (Tres chic)"
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, lf...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bette Davis Glenns) says:
>In article <3al9qd$r...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ma...@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael A. Chary) writes:
>>
>>Well, you're certainly entitled to be just as wrong as you want :):):)
>>When Lou Reed and John Cale get recognized as great musicians, then fine
>>Tie Di can be a great comic book. :)
>
>You've just never heard Cale do "Heartbreak Hotel", or Nico doin' "the
>End", thass all. You'd convert; no one, but no one, can moan like
>those guys! You probably hated the New York Dolls and the Stooges,
>too, am I right? :-) And just who do you think are, bringing quality
>into this, anyway? We didn't say it was good, we just said we like
>'em. :-) That's a tie of a different dye altogether!
The New York poser stuff never appealed to me. Give me Jeff Beck and
Clapton and Townshend. And I'd say the Motown crowd could moan with
anyone.
Mark said they were great books.
>lot more than the Superman-Green Lantern types, Donovan
>notwithsitting, they had *way* too much on me. :-) And I thought she
>was pretty boring before that. Your milage obviously varied. A lot.
>:-)
No, I agree she was boring before that. I just thought Tie Di was a nadir
rather than an apex. I doubt we're that far apart :)
Dave Rawson
On 14 Nov 94 Mark Evanier wrote:
ME> Kirby created more recurring comic book
ME> characters AFTER he split with Stan than any other human being
ME> created in their entire career. No doubt he struck out a
ME> number of times but, to get back to baseball analogies, no one
ME> else even stepped up to bat to create new books more than once
ME> or twice in that period.
To carry the analogy even further, Babe Ruth was the strikeout king
during his reign as all-time home run champ. The sheer striving by
either Ruth or Kirby will probably never be equaled.
... Experience is what you got when you didn't get what you wanted.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 15
Tom Galloway
Eyes Without A Glenn <lf...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>I think the all-time worst is the one where Supergirl gives up
>fighting crime to go off to Paris and become a supermodel. Superman
>sends Princess Di (still in costume) off to talk some sense into her
>but she also ends up with a French boyfriend. Cry kitsch and let
I dunno. I think I'd have to go with "Batgirl's Costume Cut-Ups". For most
of the story, Batgirl keeps getting distracted by costume faux pases and
makeup problems, letting villains escape right and left. However, at the
end of the story, she "recovers" from this and pretends to see a run in
her tights. As she extends her leg to examine this, the sheer beauty of said
leg distracts the bad guys, allowing Batman and Robin to pummel them. Note
that Bruce and Dick were not distracted by said female leg, adding some
evidence to Wertham's hypothesis about them.
Yet another piece of evidence for the theory that there were some very
interesting substances in the DC water cooler in the late 60s.
"The last time somebody said, `I find I can write much better with a word
processor.', I replied, `They used to say the same thing about drugs.'" --Roy
Blount, Jr.
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com