Stereotypes: The Phantom Menace
Rob Schmidt
The verdict on the latest Star Wars episode, "The Phantom Menace," is
in, and it isn't good for fans of multiculturalism. Several characters,
especially the goofy Jar Jar Binks, have inspired vehement reactions.
The prevailing sentiment is summed up by one website's name:
www.jarjarmustdie.com.
As the LA Times (5/26/99) reports:
Much of the criticism centers on what some see as Jar Jar's
stereotypical racial traits. An Internet discussion group dedicated
to him on deja.com had more than 13,000 postings as of Tuesday
morning, many along the lines of this one: "He's written like a
character out of an Uncle Remus story, and does everything but call
Qui-Gon (the Liam Neeson character) 'Massah.'"
Some other Internet postings compare Jar Jar to the radio and TV
characters "Amos 'n' Andy." One writer says of the movie: "It could
be 'Sambo Wars.'"
Audience members have complained that Nute Gunray, the evil Viceroy
of
the Federation, seems based on Asian stereotypes. And Watto, young
slave Anakin Skywalker's sleazy owner, strikes some viewers as an
offensive caricature of an Arab. In addition, the Gungan, the
primitive tribe of which Jar Jar is a member, is ruled by a fat,
buffoonish character, seemingly a caricature of a stereotypical
African chieftain.
Must Jar Jar die? Perhaps not, but these stereotypes should. Is it
possible to have a story where the hero isn't a tall, handsome (Jedi)
knight and the heroine isn't a beautiful young princess?
Failing Grade for Movies, TV
American movies and TV shows--and comic books--have a poor record of
redressing our past. These genres reside on the trailing edge of
culture, "discovering" trends long after the rest of us. Two recent
articles provide further evidence:
As reported in the LA Times (5/4/99), a Screen Actors Guild study says
minority actors are losing ground in film and TV roles. In 1998, for
the first time in six years, the number of roles going to African
American, Latino, and Native American actors declined. The casting
analysis indicates that overall minorities are underrepresented compared
to their numbers in the US population.
% of US pop. % of roles % of roles
1995 est. 1997 1998
African American 12.0 14.1 13.4
Latino 10.2 4.0 3.5
Asian American 3.5 1.9 2.1
Native American 0.7 0.4 0.2
Total 26.4 20.4 19.2
As reported in the LA Times (5/28/99), "Of the 26 new comedies and
dramas premiering on the major broadcast networks--CBS, NBS, ABC and
Fox--not one features a minority in a leading role....There are few
blacks in supporting roles on the shows, and Latinos, Asian Americans,
Native Americans and other ethnic groups are virtually invisible."
Certifiably Cool
The momentum continues to build for PEACE PARTY's July debut. The comic
is earning plaudits before the first issue hits the stands. Not only
did Diamond Comics rate it "Certifiably Cool" in its May catalog, but
the retail store Bookery Fantasy gave it its Small Press Showcase of the
Month.
We're still looking for Native American help for future issues. If you
know of an expert to volunteer for our advisory board...a text piece
that's short and accessible...or a shop willing to carry PEACE PARTY,
let us know!
Rob Schmidt
Publisher
Nat Gertler
build up his own comic....
"Must Jar Jar die? Perhaps not, but these stereotypes should. Is it
possible to have a story where the hero isn't a tall, handsome (Jedi)
knight"
Oh, you mean like The Phantom Menace, where the hero is notably short?
Jar Jar Brandon
wessa prefera vertically challenged.
Actually, one of the problems with PM is that there is no main character.
The hero is Qui, Obi, Anakin, and yes, Jar Jar, at various times.
--
-Brandon
Be creative. Invent a new perversion.
WindyTWise
>Actually, one of the problems with PM is that there is no main character.
>The hero is Qui, Obi, Anakin, and yes, Jar Jar, at various times.
Agreed.
Walt Stone - who's all pumped up and waiting to buy a DVD player and the PM
DVD disc, just so he can watch the movie with Jar Jar Binks digitally deleted.
k...@tsoft.net
> As Rob continues to take potshot attacks at other works in an attempt to
> build up his own comic....
> "Must Jar Jar die? Perhaps not, but these stereotypes should. Is it
> possible to have a story where the hero isn't a tall, handsome (Jedi)
> knight"
> Oh, you mean like The Phantom Menace, where the hero is notably short?
Not to mention that tall and handsome aren't racial stereotypes, unless
Rob is suggesting that racial minorities are all short and ugly. Is that
what you meant, Rob?
Not to mention that a movie that's part of a series about the rise and
fall of the Jedi knights *might* reasonably be expected to have Jedi
knights as heroes...
Not to mention that not only is it possible to have stories where the
heroes aren't tall, handsome knights, but you'd be hard pressed to find a
dozen movies from the last year where the hero *is* a tall, handsome
knight...
Not to mention that there's no real consensus on exactly what racial
stereotype the merchant character on Tatooine (whose name I can't recall)
is supposed to represent... Some say Arab, some say Jewish, some say
Italian; is it possible that people are revealing their own hidden
prejudices by deciding that a conniving merchant *must* represent the
racial group of their choice?
Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
Not to mention that (as Nat pointed out) tearing down Star Wars, deserved
or not, says nothing about your comic and seems a little cheap, like a
negative campaign ad... You're not going to sell anyone on it by talking
about Star Wars.
And not to mention that you're inviting the same kind of fine-toothed
examination of your comic for stereotypes... If you give your Native
American character any Native American traits, isn't that stereotyping
them? Will they ever have any traits associated with negative
stereotypes, or is that something that can never happen in the real world?
But you're right; Jar Jar is *really* annoying.
--
KarlHiller [] Systems Librarian, ne'er-do-well, axolotl fancier, INTP
eternally
k...@tsoft.net wrote:
> Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
> on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
> Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
> the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
no offense to these friends of yours, but wouldn't they be the *last*
people who would be able to detect an Asian accent in English
speech patterns...?
> But you're right; Jar Jar is *really* annoying.
we can certainly all agree on that one...
-= e.
Jevon den Ridder
LOL! Or perhaps fucking not. I guess little kids aren't as cool as
Matrix fanboys.
BTW, the DVD box set of the Journal of the Whills (Eps I-VI) won't be
released until after Ep III.
--
[Something New]
Jevon den Ridder [remove NOSPAM for email]
http://welcome.to/agelastos
"Yeah." -Rob Zombie
R. Tang
eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>k...@tsoft.net wrote:
>
>> Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
>> on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
>> Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
>> the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
>
>no offense to these friends of yours, but wouldn't they be the *last*
>people who would be able to detect an Asian accent in English
>speech patterns...?
Depends on which nationality.
Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
of the 1930s and 1940s.
--
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
Jevon den Ridder
>
> In article <375D7B86...@hotmail.com>,
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >k...@tsoft.net wrote:
> >
> >> Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
> >> on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
> >> Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
> >> the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
> >
> >no offense to these friends of yours, but wouldn't they be the *last*
> >people who would be able to detect an Asian accent in English
> >speech patterns...?
>
> Depends on which nationality.
>
> Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
> comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
> of the 1930s and 1940s.
That's the point. The entire movie was made to be like the sereals from
the 30s and 40s. Ben Burtt, the sound effects guy, said himself that
they recorded Thai actors speaking English, and then had American actors
do the voices like the Thai people speaking English.
Mi
wrote:
>As Rob continues to take potshot attacks at other works in an attempt to
>build up his own comic....
>
>"Must Jar Jar die? Perhaps not, but these stereotypes should. Is it
>possible to have a story where the hero isn't a tall, handsome (Jedi)
>knight"
>
>Oh, you mean like The Phantom Menace, where the hero is notably short?
Or the dearly departed Deep Space 9 where the Captain of the space
station and main authority figure is black?
Rich
****************************************************************************
"One breath of a great whale contains more than the sum of human knowledge."
Penelope Smith
****************************************************************************
eternally
R. Tang wrote:
> In article <375D7B86...@hotmail.com>,
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >k...@tsoft.net wrote:
> >
> >> Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
> >> on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
> >> Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
> >> the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
> >
> >no offense to these friends of yours, but wouldn't they be the *last*
> >people who would be able to detect an Asian accent in English
> >speech patterns...?
>
> Depends on which nationality.
>
> Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
> comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
> of the 1930s and 1940s.
yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
of the Queen and her handmaidens.
in my opinion, this sort of thing just doesn't occur to Lucas, he's
blind to it. he would make all his main characters caucasian and
all the aliens with various overseas accents just to make them
seem more alien and exotic if he wasn't forced to think about things
by the sorts of people taking issue with things this time around.
that being said, i think his critics are going overboard and that
Lucas probably doesn't have a racist or jingoistic bone in his
body, it just doesn't strike him as an issue.
-= e.
eternally
Mi wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Jun 1999 07:57:00 -0700, Nat Gertler <n...@gertler.com>
> wrote:
>
> >As Rob continues to take potshot attacks at other works in an attempt to
> >build up his own comic....
> >
> >"Must Jar Jar die? Perhaps not, but these stereotypes should. Is it
> >possible to have a story where the hero isn't a tall, handsome (Jedi)
> >knight"
> >
> >Oh, you mean like The Phantom Menace, where the hero is notably short?
>
> Or the dearly departed Deep Space 9 where the Captain of the space
> station and main authority figure is black?
yeah, but he still has to answer to "The Man" (Admiral Ross)!
; )
-= e.
Tuazon
maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
of the Queen and her handmaidens.>>
Don't you folks find it rather odd that all these Asian references: good or bad
are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
you blinked you would have missed her.
It doesn't bother you at all?
eternally
Tuazon wrote:
it makes me think George Lucas has a rather insular worldview, that's all.
(after all, we would've never seen Lando if people hadn't commented on
how lily white Ep4:ANH was, and even he was a throwaway character.
and how many major black characters would there have been in *this*
movie if Samuel L Jackson hadn't lobbied for the role of Mace Windu?).
but, as i said, i don't think it's done maliciously. just out of ignorance
of there being an issue at all.
-= e.
R. Tang
eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>R. Tang wrote:
>
>> In article <375D7B86...@hotmail.com>,
>> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >k...@tsoft.net wrote:
>> >
>> >> Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
>> >> on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
>> >> Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
>> >> the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
>> >
>> >no offense to these friends of yours, but wouldn't they be the *last*
>> >people who would be able to detect an Asian accent in English
>> >speech patterns...?
>>
>> Depends on which nationality.
>>
>> Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
>> comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
>> of the 1930s and 1940s.
>
>maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
>heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
>of the Queen and her handmaidens.
>
>blind to it. he would make all his main characters caucasian and
>all the aliens with various overseas accents just to make them
>seem more alien and exotic if he wasn't forced to think about things
>by the sorts of people taking issue with things this time around.
>that being said, i think his critics are going overboard and that
>Lucas probably doesn't have a racist or jingoistic bone in his
>body, it just doesn't strike him as an issue.
I think this is a fair statement.
This is a hot button for >ME<, given that white actors doing bad
imitations of Asian cultures is still going on in much the same vein as in
the 30s and such.....
R. Tang
Tuazon <tua...@aol.com> wrote:
><<yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
>maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
>heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
>of the Queen and her handmaidens.>>
>
> are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
>that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
>you blinked you would have missed her.
>
>It doesn't bother you at all?
Well, given that I work in a related industry...yeah.
Another case of the squeaky wheel gets the grease....
k...@tsoft.net
>> Not to mention that the quotes in Rob's article are from unnamed posters
>> on the Internet, and as such are as anecdotal as this: None of my
>> Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
>> the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
> no offense to these friends of yours, but wouldn't they be the *last*
> people who would be able to detect an Asian accent in English
> speech patterns...?
<pause>
...That's a possibility. I didn't consciously recognize American accents
in British movies as such for a long time, and even now it'd be easy to
overlook (I tend to notice it more often when I know the actor is
British).
I guess that shows how much anecdotal evidence is worth.
--
KarlHiller [] Systems Librarian, ne'er-do-well, axolotl fancier, INTP
"He's jarring!" - Precious Roy
kud...@my-deja.com
you'd like, but in 1999 it is strange that Lucas decided to make the
lingua franca of the galaxy pidgin English.
By the way, I recall in Episodes 4-6 that the arch-villains spoke much
better English than the heroes.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Mi
wrote:
Oh, I thought you meant Kira! ;]
>
>; )
>
>
>-= e.
ne...@my-deja.com
> You can reiterate the influence of the '30's and '40's serials all
> you'd like, but in 1999 it is strange that Lucas decided to make the
> lingua franca of the galaxy pidgin English.
>
> By the way, I recall in Episodes 4-6 that the arch-villains spoke much
> better English than the heroes.
And the aliens had languages *other* than english. I feel like lucas
was bit lazy with the linguistics, pidgeon english and no new
languages... jar jar should have had a frog like accent for yoda's
sake! Besides, what are all the protocol droids going to do if everyone
speaks (bad) english? hmph!
nic
DTonks
>R. Tang wrote:
>
>> Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
>> comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
>> of the 1930s and 1940s.
>
>yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
>maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
>heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
>of the Queen and her handmaidens.
>
>in my opinion, this sort of thing just doesn't occur to Lucas, he's
>blind to it. he would make all his main characters caucasian and
>all the aliens with various overseas accents just to make them
>seem more alien and exotic if he wasn't forced to think about things
>by the sorts of people taking issue with things this time around.
>that being said, i think his critics are going overboard and that
>Lucas probably doesn't have a racist or jingoistic bone in his
>body, it just doesn't strike him as an issue.
But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
material in his work. Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
including anything that might be misunderstood.
--Doug Tonks
_____
Teaching AIDS--a book for parents and teachers
AIDS Prevention Education
http://www.mtsu.edu/~hytonks/aidsbook.html
D Rapp
>
> <<yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
> maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
> heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
> of the Queen and her handmaidens.>>
>
> are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
> that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
> you blinked you would have missed her.
>
> It doesn't bother you at all?
No, it doesn't. I see Asian movies with all Asian actors, movies with all
black actors, etc. There really is no requirement for a movie of this type
to be sure they have all types of people represented. Same goes for the
bitching about the heroes being tall, handsome, etc. I'm short,
middle-aged, average physical condition, etc. Those physical traits
usually don't go with the great positive portrayals either. More like
bartenders, politicians (usually corrupt), shopkeepers, etc. Somehow I
don't think the public would pay to see me bumbling around fighting Darth
Maul with a light sword. I guess Queen Amidala could be Jeanene Garofolo.
People make way too much out of all this. Lucas had two choices. Give all
characters white accents and get bitched at; or try variations of other
real accents and get bitched at. I suppose he could have portrayed Jar
Jar's race as dumb rednecks with southern accents and that would have been
politically acceptable; since they would be white.
There is enough racial/ethnic problems now as it is, without creating
nonsensical ones out of nothing.
Dan
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>In rec.arts.comics.misc Nat Gertler <n...@gertler.com> wrote:
>> As Rob continues to take potshot attacks at other works in an attempt to
>> build up his own comic....
>
>> "Must Jar Jar die? Perhaps not, but these stereotypes should. Is it
>> possible to have a story where the hero isn't a tall, handsome (Jedi)
>> knight"
>
>> Oh, you mean like The Phantom Menace, where the hero is notably short?
Um... it looked to me as if the hero is Qui-Gon Jin, who is not short.
That Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi are going to be far more
important in the rest of the series doesn't change that. TPM is about
how Qui-Gon Jin set out to do good, and apparently rescued a boy and
saved a planet, then died without ever realizing that what he had
actually done was to set in motion the destruction of the Republic and
the Jedi.
>Not to mention that not only is it possible to have stories where the
>heroes aren't tall, handsome knights, but you'd be hard pressed to find a
>dozen movies from the last year where the hero *is* a tall, handsome
>knight...
>
>Not to mention that there's no real consensus on exactly what racial
>stereotype the merchant character on Tatooine (whose name I can't recall)
Watto.
>...is supposed to represent... Some say Arab, some say Jewish, some say
>Italian; is it possible that people are revealing their own hidden
>prejudices by deciding that a conniving merchant *must* represent the
>racial group of their choice?
Looks like it to me.
> None of my
>Asian-American co-workers could detect *any* hint of an Asian accent in
>the Trade Federation leaders... (this is true)
Didn't sound Asian to me, either -- just vaguely alien.
What's an Asian accent, anyway? Chinese, Japanese, Indian? Those
don't sound much alike to me.
>But you're right; Jar Jar is *really* annoying.
I didn't think so.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 4/24/99
R. Tang
>Tuazon wrote:
>>
>> <<yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
>> maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
>> heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
>> of the Queen and her handmaidens.>>
>>
>> Don't you folks find it rather odd that all these Asian references: good or bad
>> are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
>> that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
>> you blinked you would have missed her.
>>
>> It doesn't bother you at all?
>
>No, it doesn't. I see Asian movies with all Asian actors, movies with all
>black actors, etc. There really is no requirement for a movie of this type
>to be sure they have all types of people represented. Same goes for the
>bitching about the heroes being tall, handsome, etc. I'm short,
>middle-aged, average physical condition, etc. Those physical traits
>usually don't go with the great positive portrayals either. More like
>bartenders, politicians (usually corrupt), shopkeepers, etc. Somehow I
>don't think the public would pay to see me bumbling around fighting Darth
>Maul with a light sword. I guess Queen Amidala could be Jeanene Garofolo.
>
>People make way too much out of all this.
I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
it's certainly a big problem.
Lucas had two choices. Give all
>characters white accents and get bitched at; or try variations of other
>real accents and get bitched at. I suppose he could have portrayed Jar
>Jar's race as dumb rednecks with southern accents and that would have been
>politically acceptable; since they would be white.
False choices. Go talk to linguists; MIX various accents and
speech patterns.
>There is enough racial/ethnic problems now as it is, without creating
>nonsensical ones out of nothing.
For Asian and Asian American actors, it's certainly a real
problem. As reflections of wider trends, there's certainly more here than
you seem to think.
PatDOneill
>Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
>putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
>including anything that might be misunderstood.
This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing in these
parts.
Best, Pat
The words and opinions expressed are those of Patrick Daniel O'Neill and do not
represent the opinions or policies of WIZARD: THE GUIDE TO COMICS.
Elayne Riggs
> But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
> jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
> material in his work.
Where were y'all when Leia showed up in that inappropriately skimpy outfit
in RETURN OF THE JEDI?
Oh yeah, that's right, objectifying her was in the context of the story.
Guess it's okay then. :)
ObComics: Talking to a couple friends last night about the topic of "Is
Jar Jar offensive?", they pretty much agreed that in the movie he's much
worse than he "reads" in the comics. I much prefer how the character's
portrayed on paper; easier to understand him, for one. :)
- Elayne
Rich Johnston
patdo...@aol.comnospam says...
>
>>From: dto...@aol.comnospamno (DTonks)
>
>>Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
>>putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
>>including anything that might be misunderstood.
>
>This is called self-censorship,
Surely it can only be self -'censorship', Pat, if you're the government. 8-)
>and is usually considered a bad thing in these
>parts.
Not by me. It's anyone-else-but-self-censorship I have a problem with...
Rich Johnston
twis...@hotmail.com
http://www.twistandshoutcomics.com
Ramblings '99: The oldest internet comics news/rumour column.
cshardie
> As reported in the LA Times (5/28/99), "Of the 26 new comedies and
> dramas premiering on the major broadcast networks--CBS, NBS, ABC and
> Fox--not one features a minority in a leading role....There are few
> blacks in supporting roles on the shows, and Latinos, Asian Americans,
> Native Americans and other ethnic groups are virtually invisible."
I wanted to comment that while the fact that there are few non-whites in
lead or supporting roles on TV is definitly a bad thing, the fact that a
lot of the supporting roles they used to have were as servants is also
bad, and the fact that they may have lost those supporting roles because
TV people realized how ridiculous it was to always cast them that way is
good. Percentages, like stereotypes, don't always tell the whole story.
Of course while there may be a good reason why they aren't getting some
of the roles they used to have, there is NO reason at all why they
aren't getting other roles. That, you are correct, is bad.
--
Suzanne
"Chew Chewlies Gum"
DTonks
>>From: dto...@aol.comnospamno (DTonks)
>
>>Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
>>putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
>>including anything that might be misunderstood.
>
>This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing in
>these
>parts.
Being aware enough of your work to make sure that you convey what you intend to
convey rather than what you don't intend to convey is self-censorship? You must
use a different dictionary than I do, Pat.
cshardie
> >Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
> >putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
> >including anything that might be misunderstood.
PatDOneill wrote:
> This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing
> in these parts.
I can't believe that censoring yourself out of kindness (not fear) in
order not to offend people could be a bad thing.
Censoring others, especially a government censoring others, is a bad
thing. Trying not to hurt people's feelings isn't a bad thing. No matter
what you call it.
--
Suzanne http://www.flash.net/~cshardie
You must first *be* who you really are, then, *do* what you need to do,
in order to *have* what you want.
-Margaret Young
Elayne Riggs
>>From: dto...@aol.comnospamno (DTonks)
>>Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
>>putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
>>including anything that might be misunderstood.
> This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing in these
> parts.
Or it's called enlightened restraint, creativity and sensitivity, which is
usually considered a good thing in these parts. ObComics: Robin and I
were talking the other day about artists who think it's "kewl" to sneak
inappropriate material into Code-approved books. We tend to be of the
opinion that it stimulates the creator's (and reader's) imagination more
NOT to be so blatantly obvious with your visuals. The same might be said
vis a vis lack of imagination when talking about whether Lucas fell back
on vocal stereotypes rather than (to give just one example of a readily-
available alternative) using voice synthesizers to make speech sound more
alien. Hey, if it's good enough for Cher... :)
- Elayne
Elayne Riggs
> Tuazon wrote:
>>
>> Don't you folks find it rather odd that all these Asian references: good or bad
>> are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
>> that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
>> you blinked you would have missed her.
>>
>> It doesn't bother you at all?
> No, it doesn't. I see Asian movies with all Asian actors, movies with all
> black actors, etc. There really is no requirement for a movie of this type
> to be sure they have all types of people represented.
Oh, I disagree pretty vehemently. "A movie of this type" is science
fantasy. SF *thrives* of the idea of IDIC (infinite diversity in infinite
combinations). If Lucas & co. are going to go to the trouble of
diversifying alien races to the extent that they have, the least they can
do is diversify humanoid races as well. (And that not only includes more
black and Asian and other non-white Terran-type faces, but more blues and
purples and greens as well!)
> People make way too much out of all this. Lucas had two choices.
In terms of casting the movie, he presumably had lots more free reign than
that. While defaulting to white actors is still fairly standard Hollywood
casting procedure, I think it might have helped the aforementioned notion
of the galaxy containing infinite diversity to show more non-Caucasian
faces in the movie.
ObComics: Wish I could remember that famous Green Lanter/Green Arrow
speech verbatim where GL is called on the carpet for defending the greens
and purples in space but not the blacks and browns on Earth...
- Elayne
Kevin McGuire
:Don't you folks find it rather odd that all these Asian references: good or bad
:are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
:that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
:you blinked you would have missed her.
It seems that for George Lucas there are two types of people - white
people, and aliens.
--
Kevin McGuire
University of Pennsylvania
#Remove the 2 "moo" to reply#
Kevin McGuire
: Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
: not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
: stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
: same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
: it's certainly a big problem.
What I can't believe is that there wasn't one person in post production
who saw the movie and told Lucas about how stereotypically the aliens
come across.
Jar Jar really is the modern son of Steppin Fetchit - maybe Lucas is
staying true the serials of the 30's and 40's, but I think some things
are best left dead.
David J. Snyder
Kevin McGuire <Kevin McGuire kevin...@sas.upenn.edu.moo> wrote:
>
>It seems that for George Lucas there are two types of people - white
>people, and aliens.
>
or alien?
-Dave
The Brandon has you
<fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>DTonks <dtonks> happened to mention:
>
>> But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
>> jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
>> material in his work.
>
>Where were y'all when Leia showed up in that inappropriately skimpy outfit
>in RETURN OF THE JEDI?
Leia got captured by Jabba, who has a history of female slaves. It's makes
perfect sense that he puts her in the skimpy outfit and chains. It would
have been inappropriate if she had worn such a costume herself (which she
never did throughout the triology), which would have grossely out of
character.
>Oh yeah, that's right, objectifying her was in the context of the story.
>Guess it's okay then. :)
Yes.
It's silly to harp on this scence when the character has been portrayed as
a strong and capable fighter and leader.
--
-Brandon
Lance A Visser
+>From: dto...@aol.comnospamno (DTonks)
+>> >Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
+>> >putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
+>> >including anything that might be misunderstood.
+>PatDOneill wrote:
+>> This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing
+>> in these parts.
+>I can't believe that censoring yourself out of kindness (not fear) in
+>order not to offend people could be a bad thing.
The question is how to apply this "kindness". In the case of jar-jar, its
rather easy. Black performers should never ever be given comic relief roles
of any sort. Cultural references (use of language or speech patterns) should
only come from select european sources.
But even then, its difficult. For example, some people are going to see
a slaveowning merchant in a desert and immediatly say "arab stereotype".
The intention, the appearance of the character and the actions of the character
make no difference. desert....slaves.....bargaining---> arab.
+>Censoring others, especially a government censoring others, is a bad
+>thing. Trying not to hurt people's feelings isn't a bad thing. No matter
+>what you call it.
Censorship, however well-intentioned, is still censorship. You are telling
an artist how to create. There is plenty of art that hurts people's feelings
in different ways. Telling artists what to create is a fundemental wrong.
It can also lead to effects not intended. For example, the easy way for Lucas
to get out of this "problem" is simply to make everyone look and act "more white"
and to hire some "furniture" (as he did with Billy D. Williams) to stand around
in minor roles and look all noble. And thats what will probably happen in the
next film.
eternally
Lance A Visser wrote:
> +>Censoring others, especially a government censoring others, is a bad
> +>thing. Trying not to hurt people's feelings isn't a bad thing. No matter
> +>what you call it.
>
> Censorship, however well-intentioned, is still censorship. You are telling
> an artist how to create. There is plenty of art that hurts people's feelings
> in different ways. Telling artists what to create is a fundemental wrong.
the poster you are responding to has already drawn a disctinction
between *self* -censorship and censorship. The first sentence in the
above paragraph you're responding to refers to the latter, the rest
the former.
> It can also lead to effects not intended. For example, the easy way for Lucas
> to get out of this "problem" is simply to make everyone look and act "more white"
> and to hire some "furniture" (as he did with Billy D. Williams) to stand around
> in minor roles and look all noble. And thats what will probably happen in the
> next film.
on the contrary, i suspect he already has plans (controversy or no) for
Samuel L. Jackson's character Mace Windu to play a larger role in
the next films. of course, Samuel's casting was his idea, not Lucas'...
-= e.
eternally
DTonks wrote:
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >R. Tang wrote:
> >
> >> Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
> >> comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
> >> of the 1930s and 1940s.
> >
> >yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
> >maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
> >heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
> >of the Queen and her handmaidens.
> >
> >in my opinion, this sort of thing just doesn't occur to Lucas, he's
> >blind to it. he would make all his main characters caucasian and
> >all the aliens with various overseas accents just to make them
> >seem more alien and exotic if he wasn't forced to think about things
> >by the sorts of people taking issue with things this time around.
> >that being said, i think his critics are going overboard and that
> >Lucas probably doesn't have a racist or jingoistic bone in his
> >body, it just doesn't strike him as an issue.
>
> But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
> jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
> material in his work. Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
> putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
> including anything that might be misunderstood.
no argument from me there. i wasn't excusing the situation, just
explaining what i thought the situation was.
-= e.
eternally
DTonks wrote:
> PatDOneill (patdo...@aol.comnospam) wrote:
>
> >>From: dto...@aol.comnospamno (DTonks)
> >
> >>Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
> >>putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
> >>including anything that might be misunderstood.
> >
> >This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing in
> >these
> >parts.
>
> Being aware enough of your work to make sure that you convey what you intend to
> convey rather than what you don't intend to convey is self-censorship? You must
> use a different dictionary than I do, Pat.
if i had a dollar for every time i'd seen someone post that sentence! : )
-= e.
R. Tang
Kevin McGuire <Kevin McGuire kevin...@sas.upenn.edu.moo> wrote:
>: Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
>: not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
>: stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
>: same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
>: it's certainly a big problem.
>
>What I can't believe is that there wasn't one person in post production
>who saw the movie and told Lucas about how stereotypically the aliens
>come across.
Oh, I'm sure someone told him. I just don;t think he considered it
important.
Blacks had more numbers and more clout in 1980; hence, Lando
Calrissian.
eternally
David J. Snyder wrote:
> In article <7jlt50$to5$4...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> Kevin McGuire <Kevin McGuire kevin...@sas.upenn.edu.moo> wrote:
> >
> >It seems that for George Lucas there are two types of people - white
> >people, and aliens.
> >
> Which are Samuel Jackson and the Captain of Amidala's guards, white
> or alien?
just to make this point for the sake of argument (a rare occurrence on
usenet, to be sure): Samuel L. Jackson lobbied to be cast, the role
was undoubtedly less prominent and not earmarked for a black actor
until he was involved. And the Captain of the Queen's guard was a
role even smaller and less meaningful than Lando Carrissian...
-= e.
Elayne Riggs
>>DTonks <dtonks> happened to mention:
>>
>>> But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
>>> jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
>>> material in his work.
>>
>>Where were y'all when Leia showed up in that inappropriately skimpy outfit
>>in RETURN OF THE JEDI?
> Leia got captured by Jabba, who has a history of female slaves. It's makes
> perfect sense that he puts her in the skimpy outfit and chains.
Precisely why I put in the sentence about "in the context of the story."
> It's silly to harp on this scence when the character has been portrayed as
> a strong and capable fighter and leader.
The conniving trader in PM is certainly capable, as are the trade
federation folks (if a little cowed by the Emperor).
- Elayne
Vermilion
> I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
> Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
>not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
>stereotypes.
And precisely what stereotypes would these be? George is an unabashed
Kurosawa fanboy (ANH virtually being The Hidden Fortress in parts), the Jedi
character virtually plucked from samurai history and legend, and every third
costume in The Phantom Menace looks like it came from a 16th century Japanese
fashion magazine.
I'll grant you that all these instances are Japanese in specific and that no
Asian actors noticably appear in the film. Even so, can you really tell me
you think Lucas has an unconsciously negative opinion/stereotype about Asians
with all the obvious influences cited above?
- Vermilion, who imagines Lucas typically makes his SW casts white and male
because HE is white and male, and that's his first instinct. I'm a white
guy, and if someone asked *me* to draw a picture of a human being, I'd
draw a white male. That's what I am, and that's the first thing that pops
into my head. Am I a racist as a result?
David Crowe
: kud...@my-deja.com wrote:
: > You can reiterate the influence of the '30's and '40's serials all
: > you'd like, but in 1999 it is strange that Lucas decided to make the
: > lingua franca of the galaxy pidgin English.
: >
: > By the way, I recall in Episodes 4-6 that the arch-villains spoke much
: > better English than the heroes.
: And the aliens had languages *other* than english. I feel like lucas
: was bit lazy with the linguistics, pidgeon english and no new
: languages... jar jar should have had a frog like accent for yoda's
: sake! Besides, what are all the protocol droids going to do if everyone
: speaks (bad) english? hmph!
A frog-like accent? You mean like "Zut alors! Zee droids de guerre, zey
are coming, mes amis!" :)
I'd like to add that while Capt. Panaka (The Queen's captaian of the
guards) had a compartively small role, it was not an inconsequential one.
Nor was Lando's flying the Falcon into the Death Star a trivial task.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"Fool! You have not the _strength_ to kill..."
-Slaymaster's last words, Captain Britain TPB
PatDOneill
>> This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing
>> in these parts.
>
>I can't believe that censoring yourself out of kindness (not fear) in
>order not to offend people could be a bad thing.
To quote (somewhat out of context) John Adams in "1776": "It's a revolution,
dammit! We're going to have to offend somebody!"
More to the point, it is patently impossible to predict who may be offended by
what. For instance, the producers of the TV series "Nothing Sacred" thought
they were producing a thought-provoking, sensitive portrayal of the modern
Catholic church--yet certain conservative Catholics were so offended by the
show they managed to get advertisers to pull commercial support, virtually
assuring its demise.
>Censoring others, especially a government censoring others, is a bad
>thing. Trying not to hurt people's feelings isn't a bad thing. No matter
>what you call it.
>
But you can't avoid hurting people's feelings if you're turning out honest
creative work.
eternally
Vermilion wrote:
> - Vermilion, who imagines Lucas typically makes his SW casts white and male
> because HE is white and male, and that's his first instinct. I'm a white
> guy, and if someone asked *me* to draw a picture of a human being, I'd
> draw a white male. That's what I am, and that's the first thing that pops
> into my head. Am I a racist as a result?
(just to play devil's advocate):
no, it doesn't make you a racist. but it might make you incredibly short
-sightedly insensitive to do so if you knew that your drawing was going to
be viewed by hundreds of millions worldwide and held up as a standard
for decades to come (and also be very influential on several generations
of children.)
-= e.
ne...@my-deja.com
> A frog-like accent? You mean like "Zut alors! Zee droids de guerre,
zey
> are coming, mes amis!" :)
no, no silly! we're trying to get *away* from earthling languages... no,
more like ribbit ribbit... :)
>
> I'd like to add that while Capt. Panaka (The Queen's captaian of the
> guards) had a compartively small role, it was not an inconsequential
one.
>
> Nor was Lando's flying the Falcon into the Death Star a trivial task.
>
No one ever said it was!
nic
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
R. Tang
PatDOneill <patdo...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>
>More to the point, it is patently impossible to predict who may be offended by
>what. For instance, the producers of the TV series "Nothing Sacred" thought
>they were producing a thought-provoking, sensitive portrayal of the modern
>Catholic church--yet certain conservative Catholics were so offended by the
>show they managed to get advertisers to pull commercial support, virtually
>assuring its demise.
This is patent nonsense.
The producers were well aware of the offensiveness of their show
to certain elements, just as Terence McNally was aware of the potential
offensiveness of his CORPUS CHRISTI. They may not have known of the extent
of the reaction, but that's a different matter.
Most writers are competent enough to know this.
>But you can't avoid hurting people's feelings if you're turning out honest
>creative work.
Bullshit.
R. Tang
Vermilion <verm...@fuse.net> wrote:
>In article gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) writes:
>> I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
>
>> Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
>>not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
>>stereotypes.
>
>And precisely what stereotypes would these be? George is an unabashed
>Kurosawa fanboy (ANH virtually being The Hidden Fortress in parts), the Jedi
>character virtually plucked from samurai history and legend, and every third
>costume in The Phantom Menace looks like it came from a 16th century Japanese
>fashion magazine.
>
>I'll grant you that all these instances are Japanese in specific and that no
>Asian actors noticably appear in the film. Even so, can you really tell me
>you think Lucas has an unconsciously negative opinion/stereotype about Asians
>with all the obvious influences cited above?
Tell me. You have all these influences...and you think the best
people to bring these influences to life are non-Asians?
>- Vermilion, who imagines Lucas typically makes his SW casts white and male
> because HE is white and male,
That may excuse you, but that doesn't excuse Lucas. You SHOULD go
with instincts, but you should also check them to see if you're not being
led astray.
And it seems to me that not casting Asian faces is going astray...
Tom Galloway
eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>just to make this point for the sake of argument (a rare occurrence on
>usenet, to be sure): Samuel L. Jackson lobbied to be cast, the role
>was undoubtedly less prominent and not earmarked for a black actor
>until he was involved. And the Captain of the Queen's guard was a
>role even smaller and less meaningful than Lando Carrissian...
Well, let's consider what the meaningful roles in the movie were
(I'm tempted to just list the action figures, but that'd be too easy :-)).
Anakin Skywalker
Jar Jar Binks
Queen Amaldia (sp?)
Qui-gon whoever
Obi-wan Kenobi
Darth Maul
Senator Palpatine/Darth Sidious (borderline, but obviously he's going to
be *very* significant in at least one of the next two).
Of these, Jar Jar is a fish. Leaving out the accent for the moment, he
could've been "played" by anyone.
Anakin and Amaldia pretty much have to be white due to 1) what we saw of
Darth sans helmet and 2) Neither Luke nor Leia are obviously mixed race
[Anakin or Amaldia could've been mixed with majority white though].
Obi-wan has to be white, unless you want to work in some serious plastic
surgery to have whoever plays him here eventually look like Alec Guiness.
Palpatine/Sidious has to be white; we've seen the character already.
Who can tell what race Darth Maul is under the tattoos/skin paint?
So the only meaningful role character who could've been cast as non-white
such that it'd be visible on screen was Qui-gon, due to what was previously
set up. Yes, it is possible that Lucas could've ignored this and cast,
say, Wesley Snipes, as Obi-wan, but I suspect that just something he
wouldn't do, as it'd pull you out of the Star Wars universe to wonder
why the racial change there. So it's down to casting a single character.
On the other hand, I have to confess I do like the suggestion I've read
of Chow-Yun Fat as Qui-gon. After all, we've never seen a light saber run
out of energy. :-)
tyg t...@netcom.com
The Brandon has you
<fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>The Brandon has you <nom...@bellsouth.net> happened to mention:
>> In article <7jlnrl$sms$1...@news.panix.com>, Elayne Riggs
>> <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>>DTonks <dtonks> happened to mention:
>>>
>>>> But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
>>>> jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
>>>> material in his work.
>>>
>>>Where were y'all when Leia showed up in that inappropriately skimpy outfit
>>>in RETURN OF THE JEDI?
>
>> Leia got captured by Jabba, who has a history of female slaves. It's makes
>> perfect sense that he puts her in the skimpy outfit and chains.
>
>Precisely why I put in the sentence about "in the context of the story."
Then what's your problem?
--
-Brandon
Andy Sheets
> Of course, as the kid in THE BOONDOCKS (speaking of racially charged
> flamewars in rac.*) said, "Thanks for casting Sam Jackson as a Jedi, Mr.
> Lucas, but he'd better not be the first one to die." Think of the
> reaction if there were four white main characters and an Asian, and the
> one who buys the farm is the Asian.
What reaction? That'd be almost like every action flick made in the last 20
years or so(except ones featuring Wesley Snipes as the hero, I guess). Like my
mom always
observes, "The minorites always die first." I guess Hollywood thinks of it as a
martyring
thing.
This reminds me of when the movie Mimic came out and Charles Dutton was on a
talk show promoting it. The host (can't remember who it was) asked Dutton if his
character dies during the film. Dutton just started laughing and said, "Man, I'm
the
black guy. What do you think?"
Andy
Jason Fliegel
Spoilers for STAR WARS: EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE: TOO MANY COLONS
follow.
>
>So the only meaningful role character who could've been cast as non-white
>such that it'd be visible on screen was Qui-gon, due to what was previously
>set up.
Of course, as the kid in THE BOONDOCKS (speaking of racially charged
flamewars in rac.*) said, "Thanks for casting Sam Jackson as a Jedi, Mr.
Lucas, but he'd better not be the first one to die." Think of the
reaction if there were four white main characters and an Asian, and the
one who buys the farm is the Asian.
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
3L, University of Chicago Law School
Tuazon
black actors, etc. There really is no requirement for a movie of this type
to be sure they have all types of people represented.>>
I believe my point was that ASIAN influence was all over the film and there
were NO asians in the film.
To apply it to this above criteria is a whole other can of worms. To not get
the point speaks to the inherent problems of race and racial stereotyping. I
don't think I wrote anything on my post that said that it would be okay if the
reverse happened.
If an Asian film maker got the same stature and success as the SW franchise did
for Lucas, and they in turn made a film where all the characters (CGI ones)
spoke white stereotypical accents and insulting mannerisms and compounded it
by using many European or caucasian cultures without having any caucasian
actors... that would be wrong as well. Fair enough?
Tuazon
speech patterns. >>
great point Roger, Lucas certainly could have used Asian voice actors without
resulting to derogatory Charlie Chan steretypes.
Do folks really believe that all Asians speak like Charlie Chan?
Tuazon
Asian actors noticably appear in the film. Even so, can you really tell me you
all the obvious influences cited above?>>
Kinda reminds me of John Wayne playing Genghis Khan.. that Lucas can't see
where using all these asian influences and then NOT hiring any asian actors,
plus adding derogatory accents to CGIans makes me realise that there is a long
way to go as far understanding between cultures are concerned.
If Kurosawa had made a film set in the future and had sets right out of Happy
Days- pure americana and you saw references to white culture everywhere, then
add some horrible "redneck" stereotypes for the CGI characters... now if you
went outside and told an asian audience member that you found it odd that no
whites were in the film and they said they didn't see it... wouldn't that seem
odd to you? Now add that whites are hardly EVER seen in mainstream Hollywood
films, would it still seem okay?
--it's not easy being green--
Tuazon
don't sound much alike to me.>>
It was not an asian accent it was a STEREOTYPE of an asian accent that is
viewed by most asians as derogatory. Lots of asians from different asian
cultures are stating so in this forum... THEY see it as derogatory because it
is false and promotes something that should have faded long ago.
thad a doria
This thread really fits the rac.misc charter, doesn't it?
--
-Thad Doria
"Y-you guys are the evil robots! I gotta call Commissioner Duck!"
cshardie
> The question is how to apply this "kindness". In the case of jar-jar, its
> rather easy. Black performers should never ever be given comic relief roles
> of any sort. Cultural references (use of language or speech patterns) should
> only come from select european sources.
I don't know if I agree with this, either. You're saying there's no way
at all to put any non-european cultural references in any movie,
anywhere? Cultural references don't *have* to be offensive, do they?
> Censorship, however well-intentioned, is still censorship. You are telling
> an artist how to create. There is plenty of art that hurts people's feelings
> in different ways. Telling artists what to create is a fundemental wrong.
Except I wasn't talking about telling artists what to create, I was
talking about artists being sensitive to other people's emotions.
Artists are perfectly welcome try to offend as many people as they want
as far as I'm concerned, but they'd better be ready for the outcome and
the outcome is probably going to be a lot of angry people. If they don't
want to make people angry (and Lucas doesn't seem like the kind of
filmmaker who's just out to make people angry) there's nothing wrong
with trying not to make people angry. Filmmakers do that all the time
and still make good movies. Just because you can offend someone doesn't
make what you create good art and just because you don't offend someone
doesn't make what you create bad art. No matter what pop culture wants
to say about that.
> It can also lead to effects not intended. For example, the easy way for Lucas
> to get out of this "problem" is simply to make everyone look and act "more white"
> and to hire some "furniture" (as he did with Billy D. Williams) to stand around
> in minor roles and look all noble. And thats what will probably happen in the
> next film.
If Lucas is going to cop out like that, that's his problem. If
filmmakers can't come up with interesting ways to create characters
without resorting to bad spoofs and stereotypes, they're not very good
filmmakers. Of course, there's nothing wrong with spoofs and comedic
stereotypes, they can be very well written and funny and point out how
ridiculous stereotypes can be. Star Wars just hasn't been set up as that
kind of movie so I didn't feel like it worked. In Austin Powers, spoof
works--in Star Wars it feels out of place. If that's what Lucas was even
doing in the first place.
--
Suzanne http://www.flash.net/~cshardie
You must first *be* who you really are, then, *do* what you need to do,
in order to *have* what you want.
-Margaret Young
cshardie
> But you can't avoid hurting people's feelings if you're turning out honest
> creative work.
I suppose everything offends at least one person in the world, but I do
believe that honest, creative work, can still be turned out without
offending large masses of people. Unless the point of the work is to
offend, of course.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for offending people with art. I'm
just saying that you don't *have* to offend someone just to have what
you create be art.
That includes comic books :)
And it is, of course, only my opinion.
cshardie
> Of course, as the kid in THE BOONDOCKS (speaking of racially charged
> flamewars in rac.*) said, "Thanks for casting Sam Jackson as a Jedi,
> Mr. Lucas, but he'd better not be the first one to die." Think of the
> reaction if there were four white main characters and an Asian, and
> the one who buys the farm is the Asian.
Ha! I didn't even think of that.
Jeeze, damned if you do, damned if you don't..... ;)
--
Suzanne
Chow-Yun Fat would have made a wonderful Qui-Gon, now that I think about
it.
Jevon den Ridder
>
> ne...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : kud...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : > You can reiterate the influence of the '30's and '40's serials all
> : > you'd like, but in 1999 it is strange that Lucas decided to make the
> : > lingua franca of the galaxy pidgin English.
> : >
> : > By the way, I recall in Episodes 4-6 that the arch-villains spoke much
> : > better English than the heroes.
>
> : And the aliens had languages *other* than english. I feel like lucas
> : was bit lazy with the linguistics, pidgeon english and no new
> : languages... jar jar should have had a frog like accent for yoda's
> : sake! Besides, what are all the protocol droids going to do if everyone
> : speaks (bad) english? hmph!
>
> are coming, mes amis!" :)
>
> guards) had a compartively small role, it was not an inconsequential one.
>
> Nor was Lando's flying the Falcon into the Death Star a trivial task.
Plus he eventually changed his mind, evacuated Bespin and went with
Leia, Chewie and the droids on the Falcon.
--
[Something New]
Jevon den Ridder [remove NOSPAM for email]
http://welcome.to/agelastos
"Yeah." -Rob Zombie
eternally
Jason Fliegel wrote:
> In article <tygFD3...@netcom.com>, Tom Galloway <t...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Spoilers for STAR WARS: EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE: TOO MANY COLONS
i've always gotten by on just one.
-= e.
Jevon den Ridder
>
> Vermilion wrote:
>
> > - Vermilion, who imagines Lucas typically makes his SW casts white and male
> > guy, and if someone asked *me* to draw a picture of a human being, I'd
> > draw a white male. That's what I am, and that's the first thing that pops
> > into my head. Am I a racist as a result?
>
> (just to play devil's advocate):
>
> no, it doesn't make you a racist. but it might make you incredibly short
> -sightedly insensitive to do so if you knew that your drawing was going to
> be viewed by hundreds of millions worldwide and held up as a standard
> for decades to come (and also be very influential on several generations
> of children.)
But wouldn't that be the same with any other sex or race?
Lance A Visser
+>If an Asian film maker got the same stature and success as the SW franchise did
+>for Lucas, and they in turn made a film where all the characters (CGI ones)
+>spoke white stereotypical accents and insulting mannerisms and
I dont think that anyone would care. White stereotypical accents
are a staple of western entertainment and have been for a long time. There
is also the long tradition of european national stereotypes being used
in a wide variety of western cultural settings.
Thing is, nobody really much cares. There are no pressure groups
getting angry for the most part.
+>compounded it
+>by using many European or caucasian cultures without having any caucasian
+>actors... that would be wrong as well. Fair enough?
Ran was an adaptation of King Lear. Was it wrong to adapt a european
work to feudal japan and cast all the major roles as asians? Should more
europeans have been forced into the work to make it a better, more "respectful",
film?
Jevon den Ridder
The Thai accents of the Neimodians were recorded by Americans doing the
accents of Thai's trying their best to speak English. Lucas wanted this
because of all the old 30s and 40s films that he's influenced by.
Jevon den Ridder
Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace. One colon.
> -= e.
what is the damon?
Elayne Riggs wrote:
> DTonks <dtonks> happened to mention:
>
> > But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
> > jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
> > material in his work.
>
> Where were y'all when Leia showed up in that inappropriately skimpy outfit
> in RETURN OF THE JEDI?
>
> Oh yeah, that's right, objectifying her was in the context of the story.
> Guess it's okay then. :)
>
god, woman, the whole Problem with star wars is not enough women in
skimpy outifts!
>
> ObComics: Talking to a couple friends last night about the topic of "Is
> Jar Jar offensive?", they pretty much agreed that in the movie he's much
> worse than he "reads" in the comics. I much prefer how the character's
> portrayed on paper; easier to understand him, for one. :)
>
that's because the accent jar jar has is supposedly jamaican and created
by ahmed best, while the syntax he uses is made up by
lucas and resembles no recognizable sublanguage.
--
R.I.P Brimstone, Millenium, and Cupid, and the subsequent
dearth of good television.
what is the damon?
DTonks wrote:
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >R. Tang wrote:
> >
> >> Basically, it's a Thai accent rendered by white speakers....which
> >> comes uncomfortably close to "oriental" accents rendered by white actors
> >> of the 1930s and 1940s.
> >
> >yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
> >maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
> >heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
> >of the Queen and her handmaidens.
> >
> >in my opinion, this sort of thing just doesn't occur to Lucas, he's
> >blind to it. he would make all his main characters caucasian and
> >all the aliens with various overseas accents just to make them
> >seem more alien and exotic if he wasn't forced to think about things
> >by the sorts of people taking issue with things this time around.
> >that being said, i think his critics are going overboard and that
> >Lucas probably doesn't have a racist or jingoistic bone in his
> >body, it just doesn't strike him as an issue.
>
> But this is part of the problem. Not that Lucas is necessarily racist or
> jingoistic, but the fact that he doesn't recognize potentially offensive
> material in his work. Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
> putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
> including anything that might be misunderstood.
>
oh, i agree.
for insatnce, having those gungarians, which due to jar jar
must obviously represent blacks, roll around blue balls?
how offensive is THAT.
what is the damon?
cshardie wrote:
> From: dto...@aol.comnospamno (DTonks)
> > >Even if Lucas has no intention of seriously
> > >putting forward stereotypes, he should still be aware enough to avoid
> > >including anything that might be misunderstood.
>
> PatDOneill wrote:
> > This is called self-censorship, and is usually considered a bad thing
> > in these parts.
>
> I can't believe that censoring yourself out of kindness (not fear) in
> order not to offend people could be a bad thing.
>
you. can't. belive.
do you know how MANY great works of art
would have been self censored?
maus owuldn't have made it out the door.
sandman would be dead int he water.
cerebus would be gone.
>
> Censoring others, especially a government censoring others, is a bad
> thing. Trying not to hurt people's feelings isn't a bad thing. No matter
> what you call it.
>
> --
> Suzanne http://www.flash.net/~cshardie
> You must first *be* who you really are, then, *do* what you need to do,
> in order to *have* what you want.
> -Margaret Young
--
what is the damon?
Kevin McGuire wrote:
> R. Tang (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
> : not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
> : stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
> : same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
> : it's certainly a big problem.
>
> What I can't believe is that there wasn't one person in post production
> who saw the movie and told Lucas about how stereotypically the aliens
> come across.
>
> Jar Jar really is the modern son of Steppin Fetchit -
no he's not.
no one told lucas because apprently
he surrounded himnself with people who have common sense.
>
> --
> Kevin McGuire
> University of Pennsylvania
> #Remove the 2 "moo" to reply#
what is the damon?
"R. Tang" wrote:
> In article <375DF3F0...@gte.net>, D Rapp <dr...@gte.net> wrote:
> >Tuazon wrote:
> >>
> >> <<yes, that's how i heard it as well. i didn't get the impression it was
> >> maliciously done, however -- the attributes of the good guys borrowed
> >> heavily from Asian cultures as well. for instance, the visual appearance
> >> of the Queen and her handmaidens.>>
> >>
> >> Don't you folks find it rather odd that all these Asian references: good or bad
> >> are found throughout PM and yet there are NO REAL Asians represented except in
> >> that half a sec glimpse of a secretary of some sort in the meeting chambers? If
> >> you blinked you would have missed her.
> >>
> >> It doesn't bother you at all?
> >
> >No, it doesn't. I see Asian movies with all Asian actors, movies with all
> >black actors, etc. There really is no requirement for a movie of this type
> >to be sure they have all types of people represented. Same goes for the
> >bitching about the heroes being tall, handsome, etc. I'm short,
> >middle-aged, average physical condition, etc. Those physical traits
> >usually don't go with the great positive portrayals either. More like
> >bartenders, politicians (usually corrupt), shopkeepers, etc. Somehow I
> >don't think the public would pay to see me bumbling around fighting Darth
> >Maul with a light sword. I guess Queen Amidala could be Jeanene Garofolo.
> >
> >People make way too much out of all this.
>
> I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
>
is too is too!
>
> Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
> not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
> stereotypes.
what stereotypes?
that guys with wings are stingy?
that orientals have a worthy culture?
that black people are courageous and competent in the face of
superior forces?
> This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
> same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
> it's certainly a big problem.
>
i can see how these would keep lucas from hiring minorites.
what is the damon?
"R. Tang" wrote:
> In article <7jltdr$to5$5...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> Kevin McGuire <Kevin McGuire kevin...@sas.upenn.edu.moo> wrote:
> >R. Tang (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> >: Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
> >: not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
> >: stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
> >: same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
> >: it's certainly a big problem.
> >
> >What I can't believe is that there wasn't one person in post production
> >who saw the movie and told Lucas about how stereotypically the aliens
> >come across.
>
> Oh, I'm sure someone told him. I just don;t think he considered it
> important.
>
nah, i don't think there are that many idiots in hollywood.
>
> Blacks had more numbers and more clout in 1980; hence, Lando
> Calrissian.
>
> --
> -Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
> - Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
> - http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
> -Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
--
what is the damon?
"R. Tang" wrote:
> In article <19990609154438...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
> PatDOneill <patdo...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
> >
> >More to the point, it is patently impossible to predict who may be offended by
> >what. For instance, the producers of the TV series "Nothing Sacred" thought
> >they were producing a thought-provoking, sensitive portrayal of the modern
> >Catholic church--yet certain conservative Catholics were so offended by the
> >show they managed to get advertisers to pull commercial support, virtually
> >assuring its demise.
>
> This is patent nonsense.
>
> The producers were well aware of the offensiveness of their show
> to certain elements, just as Terence McNally was aware of the potential
> offensiveness of his CORPUS CHRISTI. They may not have known of the extent
> of the reaction, but that's a different matter.
>
> Most writers are competent enough to know this.
>
> >But you can't avoid hurting people's feelings if you're turning out honest
> >creative work.
>
> Bullshit.
>
> --
doublebullshit.
niothing sacred was creativer and honest, and a worthy tv show.
youa re probably right that they knew they were fgoing
to offend some peope, yet it seems your position is they
shjoul,d have bradybunched the show in order not to offedn poeple, or
perhaps just not done the show at all.
what is the damon?
Tuazon wrote:
> <<No, it doesn't. I see Asian movies with all Asian actors, movies with all
> black actors, etc. There really is no requirement for a movie of this type
> to be sure they have all types of people represented.>>
>
> I believe my point was that ASIAN influence was all over the film and there
> were NO asians in the film.
>
there are american influecnes all over jackie chan movies, but
not too many americans.
>
> If an Asian film maker got the same stature and success as the SW franchise did
> for Lucas, and they in turn made a film where all the characters (CGI ones)
> spoke white stereotypical accents and insulting mannerisms and compounded it
> by using many European or caucasian cultures without having any caucasian
> actors... that would be wrong as well. Fair enough?
but lucas didn't do anything like this.
what is the damon?
Tuazon wrote:
are they protesting all the positive portrayals of asian culture
lucas puts in to his movies, or is it ONLY okay to
show asians in a positive light?
Pat ONeill
>> But you can't avoid hurting people's feelings if you're turning out honest
>> creative work.
>
>I suppose everything offends at least one person in the world, but I do
>believe that honest, creative work, can still be turned out without
>offending large masses of people. Unless the point of the work is to
>offend, of course.
If you're going to say anything worth saying in your work, you're going to
offend somebody who disagrees with what you're saying.
>I'm not saying there isn't a place for offending people with art. I'm
>just saying that you don't *have* to offend someone just to have what
>you create be art.
>
>That includes comic books :)
>
>And it is, of course, only my opinion.
>
>--
Best, Pat
The words and opinions expressed are those of Patrick Daniel O'Neill and do not
represent the opinions or policies of WIZARD: THE GUIDE TO COMICS.
D Rapp
>
>
> I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
I didn't realize this was a test. I assumed it was a discussion of views
and opinions; of which all were to freely express them. That is, unless
you are taking a close-minded approach to the discussion, not allowing your
self to consider anything other than what you have already decided is true.
> Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
> not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
> stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
> same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
> it's certainly a big problem.
Also realize, he is making a prequel to a successful trilogy. He likely
would want to give it the same overall image as the former movies. Sure,
let's make Anakin black. No one will ever notice.
> Lucas had two choices. Give all
> >characters white accents and get bitched at; or try variations of other
> >real accents and get bitched at. I suppose he could have portrayed Jar
> >Jar's race as dumb rednecks with southern accents and that would have been
> >politically acceptable; since they would be white.
>
> False choices. Go talk to linguists; MIX various accents and
> speech patterns.
And exactly what existing speech pattern do you think Jar Jar had? I've
traveled the Caribbean extensively and can gurantee you no one speaks like
that. It had the cadence of Jamaican, some New Jersey inflections, and
others I haven't yet identified. It was a mix, I assure you. Same goes
for the supposed Oriental speech.
> >There is enough racial/ethnic problems now as it is, without creating
> >nonsensical ones out of nothing.
>
> For Asian and Asian American actors, it's certainly a real
> problem. As reflections of wider trends, there's certainly more here than
> you seem to think.
I've seen foreign films with Americans portrayed in extremely bumbling
comical fashion, rude and boorish to extreme, etc. All charicatures of
reality. Should I thusly be offended in turn; or do you feel that street
only runs one way?
Dan
D Rapp
>
> In terms of casting the movie, he presumably had lots more free reign than
> that. While defaulting to white actors is still fairly standard Hollywood
> casting procedure, I think it might have helped the aforementioned notion
> of the galaxy containing infinite diversity to show more non-Caucasian
> faces in the movie.
If he had, then we would be arguing over what happened to them in the
original movies; since they are a sequal to this one. :-)
Tuazon
work to feudal japan and cast all the major roles as asians? Should more
europeans have been forced into the work to make it a better, more
"respectful",
film?>>
That was the intent of Kurosawa, King Lear has been adapted hundreds of times
with many races. Also king lear was not about the intergalactic races
supposedly found in Star Wars. In addition, Kurosawa did not use insulting
Western accents on CGI characters. It was a work which RESPECTED the source and
culture it was adapting. If Lucas got as close as Kurosawa, there would be no
discussion about this. You also stated that "nobody" really cares about the
reversal of roles but you missed the post in which I was directly replying to
someone who apparently did care.
Tuazon
Look over the posts and you will see many examples cited.
<<that guys with wings are stingy?>>
Try harder.
<<that orientals have a worthy culture?>.
Culture worthy yes, but apparently no Asian actors were deemed worthy to play
in this universe... there were ETs in there, Willow was in there but no Asians!
Don't you find that strange? It's right out of a Twilight Zone episode.
<<that black people are courageous and competent in the face of superior
forces?>>
So are the minorities that represent the SW viewing public.
The 13th Brandon
(Tuazon) wrote:
><<what stereotypes?>>
>
>Look over the posts and you will see many examples cited.
>
><<that guys with wings are stingy?>>
>
>Try harder.
>
><<that orientals have a worthy culture?>.
>
>Culture worthy yes, but apparently no Asian actors were deemed worthy to play
>in this universe... there were ETs in there, Willow was in there but no Asians!
>Don't you find that strange? It's right out of a Twilight Zone episode.
Damn that Lucas for not making quota!!!
--
-Brandon
"I've known about the dangers of sex for quite a while,
but having some girl shatter my skull with her tongue
wasn't one that I'd have expected."-rec.arts.movies.current-films
Elayne Riggs
Heh. Well, they'll have enough trouble trying to explain why C3PO and
R2D2 didn't remember ever being on Tatooine when they landed there in
Episode IV... :) :)
- Elayne
R. Tang
what is the damon? <d...@maxinter.net> wrote:
>
>
>"R. Tang" wrote:
>
>> In article <19990609154438...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
>> PatDOneill <patdo...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>> >
>> >More to the point, it is patently impossible to predict who may be offended by
>> >what. For instance, the producers of the TV series "Nothing Sacred" thought
>> >they were producing a thought-provoking, sensitive portrayal of the modern
>> >Catholic church--yet certain conservative Catholics were so offended by the
>> >show they managed to get advertisers to pull commercial support, virtually
>> >assuring its demise.
>>
>> This is patent nonsense.
>>
>> The producers were well aware of the offensiveness of their show
>> to certain elements, just as Terence McNally was aware of the potential
>> offensiveness of his CORPUS CHRISTI. They may not have known of the extent
>> of the reaction, but that's a different matter.
>>
>> Most writers are competent enough to know this.
>>
>> >creative work.
>>
>>
>> --
>
>doublebullshit.
>niothing sacred was creativer and honest, and a worthy tv show.
>youa re probably right that they knew they were fgoing
>to offend some peope, yet it seems your position is they
>shjoul,d have bradybunched the show in order not to offedn poeple, or
>perhaps just not done the show at all.
Friend, you might want to buy a clue at the clue store.
R. Tang
>"R. Tang" wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
>
>I didn't realize this was a test.
Life is a test. Everything you do is a test.
>> Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
>> not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
>> stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
>> same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
>> it's certainly a big problem.
>
>Also realize, he is making a prequel to a successful trilogy. He likely
>would want to give it the same overall image as the former movies. Sure,
>let's make Anakin black. No one will ever notice.
Don't make up straw men and don't be an idiot.
Could the former chancellor been black? Could Qui Gon been Asian
(it's a Chinese name, y'know)? Could portions of the Queen's retinue been
black, aboriginal, Asian, etc.?
If not.....WHY NOT?
>> Lucas had two choices. Give all
>> >characters white accents and get bitched at; or try variations of other
>> >real accents and get bitched at. I suppose he could have portrayed Jar
>> >Jar's race as dumb rednecks with southern accents and that would have been
>> >politically acceptable; since they would be white.
>>
>> False choices. Go talk to linguists; MIX various accents and
>> speech patterns.
>
>And exactly what existing speech pattern do you think Jar Jar had? I've
>traveled the Caribbean extensively and can gurantee you no one speaks like
>that. It had the cadence of Jamaican, some New Jersey inflections, and
>others I haven't yet identified. It was a mix, I assure you. Same goes
>for the supposed Oriental speech.
That's dead wrong for the Trade Federation characters, by the way.
Burt, the sound desginer for the movie has specifically said it was
generated by Thais speaking Englishing and then copied by English speakers
trying to mimic them. I think there's ample opportunity for stereotyping
there.
Again...go talk to the experts (which didn't occur in this case).
Mix various accents and speech patters and create some of your own.
Lance A Visser
+><<Ran was an adaptation of King Lear. Was it wrong to adapt a european
+>work to feudal japan and cast all the major roles as asians? Should more
+>europeans have been forced into the work to make it a better, more
+>"respectful",
+>film?>>
+>That was the intent of Kurosawa, King Lear has been adapted hundreds of times
+>with many races. Also king lear was not about the intergalactic races
+>supposedly found in Star Wars.
The point was that a famous asian director lifted a western work
and put it in an asian setting with an asian cast. Of course Lear has
been adapted in this way many times.....as have many cross-cultural works
and influences across history. Lucas used some asian cultural influences in his
film. There is nothing any more wrong in that than there is in Ran being
made.
+>In addition, Kurosawa did not use insulting
+>Western accents on CGI characters.
In addition, what is "offensive" seems to change to whatever is
the convienent arguement at the moement. I thought it was about using
cultural influences without using large numbers of the members of that
group in the cast. Now suddenly its back to accents and speech patterns.
+>It was a work which RESPECTED the source and
+>culture it was adapting.
How? I dont think Ran had a "quota" of european actors required
to be hired on the project as some seem to have wanted from Lucas. He
pulled the story totally out of its european context and grafted it onto
his own culture.
Now you can claim that this is a "common" sort of thing, but be warned
that if you do you will also have to accept as "common" the long european
tradition of europeans using each others sterotype mannerisms and
national stereotypes in acting.
+>If Lucas got as close as Kurosawa, there would be no
+>discussion about this.
Or more close to the truth, if Lucas were Kurosawa, there would
be no discussion about it. Lucas, being a member of an "opressive class"
is to be held to a different (double) standard.
Jevon den Ridder
>
> <<what stereotypes?>>
>
> Look over the posts and you will see many examples cited.
>
> <<that guys with wings are stingy?>>
>
> Try harder.
>
> <<that orientals have a worthy culture?>.
>
> Culture worthy yes, but apparently no Asian actors were deemed worthy to play
> in this universe... there were ETs in there, Willow was in there but no Asians!
> Don't you find that strange? It's right out of a Twilight Zone episode.
No it isn't. Look at the originals. One Asian. Fucking
political-correctness. Nobody cares if Asians are in it or not, except
Asians. Lucas is so positive, regardless of how his work could be
improved, and this is the shit that gets thrown at him. I really, really
hope there's a third world war soon to weed out the whiny and ignorant
(after Episode III of course.)
> <<that black people are courageous and competent in the face of superior
> forces?>>
>
> So are the minorities that represent the SW viewing public.
*groan* Have you noticed how the US is a white-dominant country? All
Europeans are white, and a lot moved to the US. I saw a Hong Kong Jackie
Chan movie the other day, with one white guy, which took place in the
US. The guy was a stupid stereotype. Am I complaining? No. I don't give
shit, not do I give one.
cshardie
> If you're going to say anything worth saying in your work, you're
> going to offend somebody who disagrees with what you're saying.
While it's true that a lot of things that need to be said only need to
be said because too many people don't agree or understand them, and a
lot of people get offended that others don't agree with them, I'm still
not really sure what you wrote there is true. I believe that there is
plenty worth saying that people do agree with once they hear it. If it's
said in the right way. Things can be worth saying because people haven't
seen or understood them.
I also believe that people can disagree without being offended or
offensive. You're not offending me, though I disagree with you, and I
hope I'm not offending you by disagreeing.
If Lucas offended me with the accents in his movie (and I was really
more uncomfortable with it than outright offended) it wasn't because I
don't agree that people should or did talk that way, it was because it
seemed like it was done mockingly. I guess he was copying old movies by
using those mocking accents, but I can't see that there's a place for
that kind of thing today in movies that aren't obviously spoofs. Since
Star Wars doesn't come across as a spoof to me, the silly voices didn't
sound like Lucas mocking or copying old movies, they sounded like making
fun of accents. I didn't think that's what he meant to do, but it made
me uncomfortable with what he created since it did sound that way to me.
Now, if he meant to make me uncomfortable and think about these things,
then his art did it's job and I congratulate him. If he didn't...then it
didn't.
Jevon den Ridder
He's a great fan of all the old '30s and '40s movies, as well as the
Flash Gordon sereals among others. The entire movie is very much like
one of those sereals. He was just having fun, as you can see with all
the little extras that were put in.
Jevon den Ridder
Watch A New hope again. Obi-Wan said he never remembered owning a droid.
But then he never owned Artoo or Threepio. Threepio almost definitely
gets his memory wiped by Episode III, but Artoo clearly remembers
Obi-Wan, and you can tell that Obi-Wan remembers Artoo as well. From a
certain point of view.
eternally
R. Tang wrote:
> In article <3760ADAA...@gte.net>, D Rapp <dr...@gte.net> wrote:
> >"R. Tang" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, but this is NOT the proper response.
> >
> >I didn't realize this was a test.
>
> Life is a test. Everything you do is a test.
>
> >> Back up and figure out where the problem is coming from. Lucas is
> >> not thinking things through; he's being influenced by unconscious
> >> stereotypes. This, for sure, has tremendous problems in hiring; if these
> >> same unconscious stereotypes are applied in hiring in other industries,
> >> it's certainly a big problem.
> >
> >Also realize, he is making a prequel to a successful trilogy. He likely
> >would want to give it the same overall image as the former movies. Sure,
> >let's make Anakin black. No one will ever notice.
>
> Don't make up straw men and don't be an idiot.
>
> Could the former chancellor been black? Could Qui Gon been Asian
> (it's a Chinese name, y'know)? Could portions of the Queen's retinue been
> black, aboriginal, Asian, etc.?
this is certainly a good point -- Qui Gon could've been any race at
all, (considering he is not a factor in subsequent movies) and it wouldn't
have made any difference. they certainly didn't need the "star power"
of Liam Neeson, since it doesn't count one iota towards who goes to
see the movie, so that role could've been played by anyone. heck, i
can think of a lot of well-known Asian and black actors who would
have required less training than Neeson for the physical nature of
his part...
-= e.
eternally
Jevon den Ridder wrote:
> eternally wrote:
> >
> > Jason Fliegel wrote:
> >
> > > In article <tygFD3...@netcom.com>, Tom Galloway <t...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Spoilers for STAR WARS: EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE: TOO MANY COLONS
> >
> > i've always gotten by on just one.
>
> Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace. One colon.
actually, i was joking. i don't care how many of these ":" people
write it with, since that wasn't what i was referring to...
(but your syntax is correct...)
-= e.
cshardie
> > I can't believe that censoring yourself out of kindness (not fear) in
> > order not to offend people could be a bad thing.
what is the damon? wrote:
> you. can't. belive.
>
> do you know how MANY great works of art
> would have been self censored?
>
> maus owuldn't have made it out the door.
>
> sandman would be dead int he water.
> cerebus would be gone.
But none of those offend me ;)
I'll try again. Sometimes it takes me a few tries to get what I want to
say out there into what I actually say. Sometimes it takes me more than
a few.
I don't think that everything in the world should come out nice and
sweet and inoffensive. There's a time and a place for being offensive.
If you're trying to show injustice (and how it affects people) as
Spiegleman (damnit, I don't have Maus in the room with me and I know
I've misspelled that) was or if you're trying to point out human nature
and the parts of it you think are stupid as Sim seems to me to be doing,
then you're going to end up being offensive to some people who are
offended by your ideas.
If, however, you are trying to make a movie about more traditional ideas
about good and evil like Lucas seems to do with his movies, giving some
of your characters accents that might be seen as poking fun at people
outside the movie doesn't usually have anything to do with getting the
plot across. It's unnecessary.
I didn't mean to say that no artist should ever offend people, I'm just
saying that there's nothing automatically bad about the ones that don't
want to and try not to. Just because good art sometimes needs to offend,
doesn't mean that inoffensive art is automatically bad.
I do believe that it's bad when people censor themselves because they're
afraid of what might happen if they don't, but I don't believe it's bad
when people censor themselves because they don't want to offend.
cshardie
> shjoul,d have bradybunched the show in order not to offedn poeple, or
> perhaps just not done the show at all.
No, they should have done the show like they did the other three...no
bad accents, just made up languages.
cshardie
> He's a great fan of all the old '30s and '40s movies, as well as the
> Flash Gordon sereals among others. The entire movie is very much like
> one of those sereals. He was just having fun, as you can see with all
> the little extras that were put in.
Yeah, I've heard that. I really wish I had more of a background to
understand and enjoy it. I've never seen any of those movies. If I had,
maybe Episode I would have been more interesting to me.
I really did want it to be my favorite of the year :) I do still like
it, even though I didn't like it as much as I wanted to.
cshardie
> I didn't mean to say that no artist should ever offend people, I'm just
> saying that there's nothing automatically bad about the ones that don't
> want to and try not to. Just because good art sometimes needs to offend,
> doesn't mean that inoffensive art is automatically bad.
I wanted to add on to this because I just heard a great example of
self-censorship today. Not really dealing with being offensive,
but...anyway.... I was watching the "making of" thing on the Silverado
dvd this morning (dvd's are so cool!) and the director mentioned how
originally one of the characters was going to play dead by living
through a hanging. Supposedly this character had figured out a way to be
hung and not die. They decided, though, that since there are always kids
out there who might try the stunt and end up dead because of it, that
they should leave that out. It was the filmmaker's decision and not
forced on him as far as I can tell. He was just being conscientious. He
wasn't changing his film because people would yell at him for it, he was
changing it because he didn't want to risk some stupid kid's life. So
they re-wrote, came up with a funny jailbreak scene that fit the
character very well, and I think the whole movie was stronger than I
imagine the original scene would have made it.
That's all I'm trying to say. Self-censorship doesn't have to ruin art.
If there's something in there that might be dangerous or offensive
that's not really necessary to the story, there's nothing wrong with
taking it out if you want to.
As long as your not being forced to.
cshardie
> From a certain point of view.
Heh! Damn Jedi's.... :)
Elayne Riggs
> I didn't mean to say that no artist should ever offend people, I'm just
> saying that there's nothing automatically bad about the ones that don't
> want to and try not to. Just because good art sometimes needs to offend,
> doesn't mean that inoffensive art is automatically bad.
Hear hear, Suzanne. Alas, I fear this truism will fall on a few deaf ears
around here, where some people unfortunately consider it their duty to try
to be nasty to others, and presumably feel creative folks should follow
suit. Me, I think some artistic expression can and should be nasty, but I
tend to prefer that which inspires and affirms the best in us all.
- Elayne
Elayne Riggs
> Fucking
> political-correctness. Nobody cares if Asians are in it or not, except
> Asians.
Careful with your assumptions (and with your dismissive phrasing). I
prefer to see faces of all types and colors, and I'm not Asian. It's not
"political correctness," it's wanting diversity, particularly in a science
fantasy movie. I'm fond of saying "you can't blame people for not being
ahead of their time, except when they're supposed to be." SF, to me,
seems to be one of those things that's supposed to be ahead of its time--
even when depicting events from "a long time ago."
ObComics: This is something I thought the Helix series BRAINBANX did very
well; writer Elaine Lee and artist Temujin envisioned a future where
people have varying degrees of shading based on genetic blending of racial
qualities (skin tone, facial shapes, etc.) and such, and the result was
that they were Terran but exotic-looking at the same time. I thought it
added a lot to the SF feel of the series.
> Lucas is so positive, regardless of how his work could be
> improved, and this is the shit that gets thrown at him.
First off, it's not shit, it's speculation. Secondly, this movie has been
thrust into the public eye so vehemently that it's absolutely fair game
for critique on a number of levels, including writing and casting. That's
how it works-- a movie is for public consumption, the public has a right
to give their opinions about the positives *and* the negatives.
Particularly the segment of the public that has plonked down good money to
be entertained by this movie.
> *groan* Have you noticed how the US is a white-dominant country?
Not that much, not any more. If you want to talk positivity, the dream of
this country (pretty much exemplified by Ellis Island and the plaque at
the base of the Statue of Liberty) has always been for it to be a haven
for ALL people.
> All Europeans are white, and a lot moved to the US.
And this has what to do with, say, Tatooine? :)
- Elayne