The Rob Liefeld Translation Algorithm
Alan David Doane
Note: Rob Liefeld's new opinion column has befuddled many readers, who
quickly realized Liefeld does not speak their language. As a public
service, The Ministry of Popular Enlightenment herewith presents The
Rob Liefeld Translation Algorithm. You're welcome.
Robservations I: New Voices
Column by Rob Liefeld
"The discussion of artistic voices has been a hot topic in the comic
industry of late. Specifically, who's got an artistic voice and who
doesn't; who's burned out and who's just getting warmed up."
Translation: I keep up with the news. I am on top of things. I am
"Relevant Rob!"
"Nearly a decade ago, talents named McFarlane, Lee, Liefeld, Keown and
Portacio were making their artistic voices heard, and as their talents
matured and blossomed, they ultimately changed the comic market
forever. Voices such as Maduriera, Campbell and Turner followed with a
similar, if not as potent, impact."
Translation: Ten years ago, me and my former friends thought we were
hot shit, and a lot of people fell for the hype. As we got further and
further behind in our schedules (oh, all right, we never had any
fucking schedules), other young punks with slick, vacuous styles
became popular. That Fathom has some nice titties, don't she? And
she's always wet!
"Recently, writers have grabbed a large share of the spotlight and
their voices have been the strongest during a difficult period in
terms of sales and perception for the comics industry. Some of the
writers' success has come because a new generation of illustrators has
yet to step up and invigorate the medium the way previous generations
have. Writers typically flourish during the transition period where
new pencilers emerge. But I believe that we are on the cusp of a new
age of dynamic artists ready to grab their share of the spotlight."
Translation: Brian Michael Bendis, J. Michael Strac -- Sta -- JMS
(Christ!), and Greg Rucka write good comics. But only because I've
fallen down in my duty to raise up a new generation of Chap Yaeps.
"Every week I flip through comics searching for that rare new talent
who will re-ignite my passion for a particular title or character, if
not the entire medium. Who will take me on a great new ride, much the
way Byrne, Perez and Miller did two decades ago?"
Translation: There's got to be someone who can draw better than Bendis
can write. After all, words are only words, but pictures are ART! Even
when I draw them!
"The following is a list of artists who promise to change the
landscape in the coming months and years."
Translation: See, if I'm not right in the next few months, let's wait
YEARS and see what happens. I'm "Bulletproof Rob!"
"We'll start with Ethan Van Sciver, a young talent who has been
working in the field for several years but, given that he started
working in his teens, is still considered a youngster in the business.
He cut his teeth on an indie title, Cyberfrog, back in the
mid-nineties, displaying among other things, an amazing knack for
extreme detail and dynamic figures."
Translation: I know cool phrases like "cut his teeth." And believe me,
no one knows teeth like "Rot-Proof Rob!"
"He's been knocking around DC comics the past few years drawing JLA
and Impulse projects, but it's his upcoming stint on New X-men that is
certain to turn heads."
Translation: Hawk and Dove should have sold like X-Force! Wah!
"His transformation from hyper-young talent to consummate draftsman is
truly incredible. His first issue of New X-Men is very reminiscent,
but not derivative, of Brian Bolland in its detail and rendering. The
figures are wonderfully expressive and the backgrounds and
environments are as detailed as I've seen from any artist in the last
ten years. He has a smooth, clean line that is very appealing and his
storytelling is crystal clear but sufficiently dramatic."
Translation: I've read Camelot 3000.
"I'm certain that Grant Morrison's detailed script is one of the
reasons for this impressive turn, but his upcoming Flash special with
Geoff Johns is equally stunning, proving that no matter who he's
paired with, he'll bring his A-game. Fans won't miss Frank Quitely for
too long if Van Sciver keeps up this level of work. His voice will
captivate us for sometime to come."
Translation: I know cool phrases like "A-Game!"
"Next up is Olivier Copiel, a fantastic talent whose work on DC's
Legion title has made it one of my favorite books."
Translation: Have I told you about my brilliant idea for Century?
"His penciling is stylish and unique, with influences ranging from Jim
Lee and Travis Charest to Mike Mignola and Art Adams."
Translation: He has an even bigger swipe file than me!
"His figures express animated gestures and movement and he combines
imaginative storytelling with creative page designs. His Legionnaires
are young and spunky, yet graceful and strong. He draws attractive
faces and his overall style has extreme commercial appeal. I remember
seeing some samples of his work at Jeph Loeb's office a few years back
and being very impressed by them."
Translation: I've been to Jeph Loeb's office. I love people with names
like Jeph Loeb and Chap Yaep. I wish I was a Steve Ditko character
too.
"I believe he was under consideration for one of the Superman titles
at the time, but that would have been a mistake. It was a much better
move to have him cut his teeth on the lower-echelon Legion title, much
the same way Jim Lee spent an extended period on Alpha Flight before
graduating to the big leagues with X-Men."
Translation: "Cut his teeth." I love that phrase. You could cut
diamonds with those pointy little baby teeth I draw.
"Look for bigger and better projects from Copiel as he continues to
flourish."
Translation: I know cool words like "flourish." Which reminds me of
flouride. Which reminds me of teeth.
"Keron Grant is the real deal. His work is ahead of its time. He
combines slick manga-style cinematic angles with slightly exaggerated
figure drawings."
Translation: He ignores anatomy almost as well as me. My crowning
moment in comics was when I gave Die-Hard a 9-foot spine in Youngblood
#1.
"There seems to be no angle too difficult to for him to express."
Translation: He ignores perspective as well as I do!
"And his action is fast, furious and well choreographed. If Joe Mad is
the king of this particular manga-influenced style, then Keron is the
heir apparent."
Translation: I can't spell "Madureira" twice in the same article.
"Everything he draws looks hip, edgy and relevant. At this early
stage, his only drawback is that his faces are not as advanced as his
figures, storytelling and backgrounds."
Translation: He should draw more scratchy lines on their faces.
"When his faces catch up with the rest of the package, his work will
draw the attention of the masses. His early work at Awesome on Kaboom
and his current gig on Iron Man is being scooped up by art enthusiasts
who can see his brilliance coming from miles away."
Translation: It's so unfair that there's no royalty system for the
quarter bins.
"My only fear for Grant is that the comics industry won't be big
enough to contain him and he'll be scooped up by game developers and
animation companies looking to tap his considerable talents."
Translation: Because nothing says "artistic voice" like doing designs
for Final Fantasy VIII!
"Greg Horn is currently producing the covers for the upcoming Elektra
series, and I think they're quite captivating. Ever since I saw his
work on Image Comic's J.U.D.G.E., I felt his was a voice worth
following. For those of you not familiar with Horn's work, it is a
combination of photographs, digital rendering and CGI backgrounds that
could open the floodgates to a whole new age of storytelling. He's not
the first to attempt this particular style, but at this time he is
certainly the best."
Translation: I love his shiny, shiny people. It's a shiny world!
"We all love the photo-realistic approach to comic heroes, as
evidenced by the success of Alex Ross, and Horn has delivered some
slick, fantastic images to date, but if the rumors are true that he'll
be doing some interior work in addition to the covers he's producing
for Elektra, then we're in for a real treat. Here's hoping that he'll
push the envelope with more hard-hitting graphic images and violence
than some of the other painters whose work has become stale. I prefer
my heroes in action rather than standing around in heroic poses."
Translation: Alex Ross. Bah.
"Aside from these four individuals, there are several other young
talents with tremendous potential to generate sparks if they find the
right outlet and stick with it for an extended period."
Translation: I'm not languishing in well-deserved obscurity, I'm
"Sticking with it for an extended period!"
"Today's hottest writers are no spring chickens by any means. Even
Morrison has been around since the mid-eighties. Artists such as
Elektra's Chuck Austen, formerly of Miracleman and Hero Sandwich, have
been floating around for over 10 years, but their greatest impact has
yet to be felt. If the next generation of artists can develop their
skills and be paired with some some of the better writers, the current
comics renaissance should continue for years to come."
Translation: I used to like lighting my own farts, but it makes the
delightful smell go away.
"As a side note: It's interesting to note that Marvel's
editor-in-chief, whose recent remarks regarding the relevance of
certain "artistic voices" launched this debate, has never had a
consistent voice of his own. Once an aspiring newcomer himself, he
never hung around long enough on any title to have a lasting impact.
His original tenure at Marvel was brief and spotty, ditto for his work
at Valiant. Three issues here, four issues there—where's the run?
Event was anything but and, quite frankly, his Daredevil run, like the
current Green Arrow phenomena, was all about Kevin Smith except for
the fact that GA ships monthly, whereas DD maintained a quarterly
schedule at best."
Translation: Joe Quesada won't return my calls.
"I don't believe this particular talent has ever made much of a
connection with the fans, which is what an artistic voice is all about
in the first place, isn't it? As an EIC, he has even bigger shoes to
fill, given that his predecessor put together a slate of titles and
events that resulted in sales of millions upon millions of books over
the past decade."
Translation: Bob Harras returns my calls. You bet!
"As the wheels start to come off of the latest freshly launched X-Men
locomotive, you begin to wonder as to the sanity and discernment
involved in those creative decisions. I mean, how do you justify eight
weeks between the new Morrison-Quitely title and the fact that Ian
Churchill has left Uncanny X-Men after only three issues?"
Translation: It took a while, but even Nixon was eventually considered
a respected elder statesman.
"What's more, how do you explain the fact that the monthly Wolverine
title has lost 40,000 units in sales since October?"
Translation: Even I know Frank Tieri sucks! That MORE than makes up
for Youngblood: Strikefile you sons-of-bitches!
"If the industry, and Marvel in particular, is headed for a
resurgence, then what's with the dropping sales on Ultimate Marvel
Team-Up, Thor, Defenders, Iron Man and Hulk? Considering all the work
that needs to be done, maybe the next time the EIC wants to debate the
relevance of a generation's "artistic voices," he should think about
examining the questionable impact of his own."
Translation: I refuse to mention Joe Quesada by name until that
cocksucker returns my goddamned calls.
"Rob Liefeld is the creator of Cable, X-Force,Youngblood and Supreme."
Translation: Rob Liefeld is the creator of Cable, X-Force, Youngblood
and Supreme. Nothing I could say could make him look much worse than
that.
Alan David Doane
Editor-in-Chief
Comic Book Galaxy
One of Usenet's Favourite Surviving Comics Web Sites
http://www.comicbookgalaxy.com
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
was all written by a "EIC" from a rival website? That seems sort
of ... unethical, but I digress.
By the way, Rob did make some good points.
RJRJR
Carl Henderson
news:fjmcktkidkhln2k9h...@4ax.com:
> Translation: I've been to Jeph Loeb's office. I love people with names
> like Jeph Loeb and Chap Yaep. I wish I was a Steve Ditko character
> too.
Actually, Liefeld had a fairly close association with Loeb at one time.
Back when it looked like Awesome was actually going to start producing
comics, Loeb was listed as "publisher" for the company.
--
Carl Henderson rec.arts.comics/rec.arts.comics.misc FAQ
carl.he...@airmail.net www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
Alan David Doane
Henderson) wrote:
>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote in
>news:fjmcktkidkhln2k9h...@4ax.com:
>
>> Translation: I've been to Jeph Loeb's office. I love people with names
>> like Jeph Loeb and Chap Yaep. I wish I was a Steve Ditko character
>> too.
>
>Actually, Liefeld had a fairly close association with Loeb at one time.
>Back when it looked like Awesome was actually going to start producing
>comics, Loeb was listed as "publisher" for the company.
I know; hence the reference to his involvement with Chap Yaep and Jeph
Loeb, and the comparison to Steve Ditko-type character names.
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>While some of this was amusing, was anyone else surprised to see it
>was all written by a "EIC" from a rival website? That seems sort
>of ... unethical, but I digress.
Pointing out the hypocrisy, deception and downright evil force Rob
Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online. Please point
out to me where there is some ethical violation.
I certainly don't slam Spinnerrack for posting the column. I
congratulate them for giving Rob enough rope to hang himself on a
weekly basis.
>By the way, Rob did make some good points.
Really. Tell us what those are.
Tlalocelotl Tlatoani
>
> I certainly don't slam Spinnerrack for posting the column. I
> congratulate them for giving Rob enough rope to hang himself on a
> weekly basis.
No matter what their motivations are... I'm sure the controversy has
been a hit generator for them.
TT
[ Solely my opinion and not that of GWP ]
John McMahon
> Pointing out the hypocrisy, deception and downright evil force Rob
> Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
> interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online.
Ah well, least you're not being overly melodramatic about these things.
J.
Mute at 33 1/3
>"Today's hottest writers are no spring chickens by any means. Even
>Morrison has been around since the mid-eighties."
Translation: Rob ran out of fingers while trying to count back to
the late seventies.
-Chris
__________________________
np: Mix-Up, Afro-Celt Sound System feller
Steven Rowe
<alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes:
>Pointing out the hypocrisy, deception and downright evil force Rob
>Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
>interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online
oh my ...
... so this means that you must believe that Liefeld is an important figure
in comics?
steven rowe
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Ken Dreger
<redk...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point? Who can I convince of Lefield's standing to do a
column at my site... err... ? ;)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Daily Comic News, 'A Week in Review', and other self-involved tripe:
http://www.comicgeek.ca
Omarichu
>Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
>interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online.
Which of course masks an almost obsessive level of envy (i.e., that he'll write
and draw more comic books than you ever will) as well as a great deal of
hypocrisy on your part. Sorry if the whole "Image=Bad" no longer works to make
you look like anything more than a complete bitch. Keep trying, loser.
__
"What do you call a lesbian driving a Chevy Astro full of severed penises?"
"A Dick-Van-Dyke"
Louis CK aka God
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 10:23:34 GMT, Tlalocelotl Tlatoani
><redk...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
>That's a good point? Who can I convince of Lefield's standing to do a
>column at my site... err... ? ;)
Frank Tieri would be a good start.
Alan David Doane
>>Pointing out the hypocrisy, deception and downright evil force Rob
>>Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
>>interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online.
>
>Which of course masks an almost obsessive level of envy (i.e., that he'll write
>and draw more comic books than you ever will) as well as a great deal of
>hypocrisy on your part. Sorry if the whole "Image=Bad" no longer works to make
>you look like anything more than a complete bitch. Keep trying, loser.
"Like being cornered by bedbugs."
Ken Dreger
<alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 16:39:47 GMT, Ken Dreger <kdr...@comicgeek.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 10:23:34 GMT, Tlalocelotl Tlatoani
>><redk...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>That's a good point? Who can I convince of Lefield's standing to do a
>>column at my site... err... ? ;)
>
>Frank Tieri would be a good start.
I feel ignorant. Who's Frank Tieri?
Allen Hui
imagine, we're also getting a lot of heat for it. Still, I think Spinner Rack
(and any other site for that matter) should be committed to their columnists
even if their topics are controversial or if they end up writing something
uninteresting. We'd love to have more columnists but I think any new columnist
should probably balance out some of the negative columns we've been running.
-Allen
Anthony Chelette
mean, good Lord! He was bitching about late schedules when in the last 5
years he could hardly put a book out on time if it was not published by
Marvel. Where does he get even get off critiquing Joe Q., when he has not
published ONE story worthy of a trade paperback? Joe has done more at Marvel
in the last year than Rob ever did in his entire career. Sorry Rob, the
highlight of your work was nothing more than a few final issues of New
Mutants.
And he actually praised Bob Harras? I'm sure Bob did some great things at
Marvel during his time, but he was unable to control the accountants and was
unable to bring any new talent to Marvel that was not an Image rip-off.
For those comments alone I feel the editors and writers should seek out and
kill off every character Rob ever created for Marvel. Sorry Cable and
Deadpool, it'll hurt you more than me.
Jim, Rob, and Todd all had their day in the sun, but I guarantee you their
work will eventually disappear. So little of it is memorable. It is
basically beautiful garbage. Pretty to look at, but garbage none the less. I
find that none of them have actually LEARNED anything while working in
comics. They all sold out and eventually became the very thing they formed
Image to prevent.
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>Rob's controversial column is certainly generating traffic but as you all can
>imagine, we're also getting a lot of heat for it. Still, I think Spinner Rack
>(and any other site for that matter) should be committed to their columnists
>even if their topics are controversial or if they end up writing something
>uninteresting. We'd love to have more columnists but I think any new columnist
>should probably balance out some of the negative columns we've been running.
Hey, I would give Rob or Frank Tieri (Rob's equivalent in the writing
department) a column in a heartbeat. Best case, you get a little
understanding of why their work is so awful. Worst case, like I said,
you give 'em enough rope.
I have no problems with it at all.
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>I feel ignorant. Who's Frank Tieri?
He writes Wolverine and Iron Man, and soon Deadpool. Well, they say
it's writing. No one's quite sure yet, really, what it is.
Omarichu
Try not to get so upset at the amount of success Mr. Liefeld has carved out for
himself. It's funny watching you bleating sheep try to find something wrong
everytime someone brings up the Image card.
Omarichu
>department) a column in a heartbeat. Best case, you get a little
>understanding of why their work is so awful.
Can no one escape the wrath of Alan David Doane? Can no one withstand the
weight he shifts under his five chins as he rains down hot bloody vengance
against shitty comic book writers? Can anyone understand him as he shoves yet
another dildo up his ass? Stay tuned for more.
KRothst402
This column was no worse than any comic writer's column pontificating as if
they know everything and everyone should listen.
And was his shot at Wolverine off base?
Stephen Mansell
"Alan David Doane" <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote in
message news:et2fktg37q156pvgd...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:19:27 GMT, Ken Dreger <kdr...@comicgeek.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I feel ignorant. Who's Frank Tieri?
>
>
> He writes Wolverine and Iron Man, and soon Deadpool. Well, they say
> it's writing. No one's quite sure yet, really, what it is.
>
I have a theory on this, and hear me out. You know how Chuck Austen is
using a computer program to help create the art for Elektra and War Machine?
I think Tieri's has a computer program that writes his stories. You know,
some sort of algorithm that inserts a catch phrase every few panels ("I'm
the best there is" and so forth), a random battle every so often (like a
Playstation RPG), and a certain number of stock characters with no depth for
every issue. Also, the program prevents characters from evolving in any
meaningful capacity. God knows you don't want that, because the fans start,
you know, EXPECTING you to write good stories on a consistent basis. How
stressful that must be! You really got to feel for Brian Bendis these days-
people read his books expecting them to be good...such pressure!
Just a theory...
Jeremy Henderson
<alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 06:07:13 GMT, rjrjr@yavin (Ronald J. Rickard Jr.)
>wrote:
>
>>While some of this was amusing, was anyone else surprised to see it
>>was all written by a "EIC" from a rival website? That seems sort
>>of ... unethical, but I digress.
>
>Pointing out the hypocrisy, deception and downright evil force Rob
>Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
>interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online. Please point
>out to me where there is some ethical violation.
>
Well, reprinting an entire copyrighted column without even citing
where you got it from might be considered a tad unethical.
Daniel Dayton
> Hey, I would give Rob or Frank Tieri (Rob's equivalent in the writing
> department) a column in a heartbeat. Best case, you get a little
> understanding of why their work is so awful. Worst case, like I said,
> you give 'em enough rope.
But Judd Winik (GL, Xiles) makes Tieri look like Alan Moore. I want a
column
on the people that hire these hacks.
Daniel Dayton
Omarichu
>But Judd Winik (GL, Xiles) makes Tieri look like Alan Moore. I want a
>column
>on the people that hire these hacks
Didn't you get the memo? Anyone using the term "hacks" to describe a writer
clearly more talented than them is a jealous embittered little sexless troll.
Don't let the stinging truth get to you.
Kate the Short --- Spamblocked!
Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> sat on the
sofa and said:
>"Like being cornered by bedbugs."
I wanna see *that* in a comic book.
kate.
| Kate the Short *** http://www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/racmxFAQ/ |
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| rac.european? Please visit rec.arts.comics.misc now, and read the |
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Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Anthony Chelette <chele...@home.com> wrote:
>Dude, name one good point Rob wrote that he himself is not guilty of? I
>mean, good Lord! He was bitching about late schedules when in the last 5
>years he could hardly put a book out on time if it was not published by
>Marvel. Where does he get even get off critiquing Joe Q., when he has not
>published ONE story worthy of a trade paperback? Joe has done more at Marvel
>in the last year than Rob ever did in his entire career. Sorry Rob, the
>highlight of your work was nothing more than a few final issues of New
>Mutants.
Dude, you are way too emotional about this subject to understand that
Rob's column was a well-written, well-thought out editorial on his take
on current Marvel and upcoming artists. It's okay to hate Rob for
whatever reason, but even he has some positive and negative things to
say about our industry that are worth listening to. Agree or disagree,
he did make some points that I found insightful. You can read something,
see the point, and still disagree with it.
It's really sad that you cannot get past whatever it is that bugs you
about Rob Liefeld or makes you want to jump to Joe Quesada defense, to
read this as what it was, his insight into a small piece of the comics
industry. I'm fairly open minded, have been known to change my mind,
and think all of the comic creators who have actually been able to break
into the business and work for some time, regardless of their fan status,
have something worthwhile to say.
>And he actually praised Bob Harras? I'm sure Bob did some great things at
>Marvel during his time, but he was unable to control the accountants and was
>unable to bring any new talent to Marvel that was not an Image rip-off.
So? Okay, Bob Harras is not Joe Quesada, he had different worries
and a different agenda. Marvel had different pressures and problems
that needed to be solved. Maybe Bob had a different take on what kind of
artist was needed to revive Marvel. Doesn't mean he didn't do anything
worth praising.
>For those comments alone I feel the editors and writers should seek out and
>kill off every character Rob ever created for Marvel. Sorry Cable and
>Deadpool, it'll hurt you more than me.
Again, you are talking about doing something irrational for what reason?
Because you are emotional about a man you probably never even met and who
never did anything that harmed you personally.
>Jim, Rob, and Todd all had their day in the sun, but I guarantee you their
>work will eventually disappear. So little of it is memorable. It is
>basically beautiful garbage. Pretty to look at, but garbage none the less. I
>find that none of them have actually LEARNED anything while working in
>comics. They all sold out and eventually became the very thing they formed
>Image to prevent.
That is all your opinion of course. And I suspect all of these people,
Jim, Rob, and Todd have learned lots while working in the comic industry.
And again, it is just an opinion that they sold out, I also believe Image
brings alot to the industry for independent creators that didn't exist
before they came along.
RJRJR
Alan David Doane
<jhinh...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Well, reprinting an entire copyrighted column without even citing
>where you got it from might be considered a tad unethical.
Sorry, I copied and pasted the article from the web site, and in that,
there is a link to the original. But you're right--it's at
www.spinnerrack.com .
Alan David Doane
<ka...@enteract.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <dvpekt8h5l308ag5q...@4ax.com>,
>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> sat on the
>sofa and said:
>
>>"Like being cornered by bedbugs."
>
>I wanna see *that* in a comic book.
It was, in Stormwatch, Volume 1, the issue where Jackson King is
assaulted by racist terrorists.
Peter Likidis
Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 16:39:47 GMT, Ken Dreger <kdr...@comicgeek.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 10:23:34 GMT, Tlalocelotl Tlatoani
> ><redk...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >That's a good point? Who can I convince of Lefield's standing to do a
> >column at my site... err... ? ;)
>
> Frank Tieri would be a good start.
too talented. I'd say go with Ben Raab.
Peter Likidis
<al...@spinnerrack.com> wrote:
> Rob's controversial column is certainly generating traffic but as you all can
> imagine, we're also getting a lot of heat for it.
heat for what? Controversial? We talking about the same thing here?
What Rob said was quite boring IMO. Nothing controversial about it.
Other than Alan's post.
V. Yim
> >By the way, Rob did make some good points.
>
> Really. Tell us what those are.
In my opinion (at least), everything up until the last two paragraphs,
which were nothing but petty potshots at Joe Quesada, criticizing JoeQ
for his shortcomings as an artist (lack of artistic runs of more than
three or four issues at a time, extreme lateness) when he has said
nothing of his own (ie: piss-poor anatomical renderings, severe
discrepancies between what he promotes books to be in interviews and the
final product). But I will admit, closing statements do often have the
power to enforce or destroy all previous made points, which I'm guessing
is what occured in your instance. :)
That, and failing to realize that people stopped reading Wolverine
because he started drawing it. I stopped reading as soon as Steve
Skroce's 4-issue run was finished.
Peace,
Vince Yim
Omarichu
>>
>> Really. Tell us what those are.
Us? Us who? Most everyone feels he did a good job. Are you so fat that you
qualify as multiple people now? Don't cry.
Allen Hui
given Rob a column. We've also been criticized on our message boards and in other
forums for this. When I said controversial, I meant that it prompted this thread
and on others on message boards. I hope I've clarified it a bit.
-Allen
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>We've received many angry emails from people who feel Spinner Rack shouldn't have
>given Rob a column. We've also been criticized on our message boards and in other
>forums for this. When I said controversial, I meant that it prompted this thread
>and on others on message boards. I hope I've clarified it a bit.
And I for one am very much looking forward to Rob's future epistles.
Alan David Doane
please]"@telus.net> wrote:
>In my opinion (at least), everything [in Rob Liefeld's column had good points] up until the last two paragraphs,
>which were nothing but petty potshots at Joe Quesada, criticizing JoeQ
>for his shortcomings as an artist (lack of artistic runs of more than
>three or four issues at a time, extreme lateness) when he has said
>nothing of his own (ie: piss-poor anatomical renderings, severe
>discrepancies between what he promotes books to be in interviews and the
>final product). But I will admit, closing statements do often have the
>power to enforce or destroy all previous made points, which I'm guessing
>is what occured in your instance. :)
Not at all. Liefeld's column was filled to the brim in almost every
single word with hypocrisy, misdirection, obfuscation, and sheer,
undeserved arrogance.
>That, and failing to realize that people stopped reading Wolverine
>because he started drawing it. I stopped reading as soon as Steve
>Skroce's 4-issue run was finished.
You'll note that at no point in my little translation did I ever say
Wolverine has ever been any good. That's not the point. In fact, in my
columns at Comic Book Galaxy, I have said that it almost always has
been a bad title. I don't think Wolverine works as a solo character
(though Ellis's four issue story came close to getting it right).
Rob, of course, invokes issues like this to draw attention away from
the only topics that he really has a right to discuss: His vile
business practices, godawful lack of talent, and shameless promotion
of projects that (thank God) for the most part never see the light of
day.
So, as I pointed out with sarcasm, even a permanently-in-denial mental
defective like Rob Liefeld can understand that the twisted,
quasi-erotic mano-a-mano scenarios that Tieri interjects into
virtually every story are not good stories for characters like
Wolverine and Iron Man. But as the old cliche goes, even a broken
clock is right twice a day.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> nothing but petty potshots at Joe Quesada, criticizing JoeQ
> for his shortcomings as an artist ... when he has said nothing of his own
I didn't realize it was a rule that you had to criticize yourself in order
to criticize others. That would make reviews *really* interesting to read.
:)
Yeah, Liefeld's got huge problems, but that doesn't make his points
automatically invalid. I'm not saying they're valid, either, only that they
should be evaluated as points on their own merit. That they don't fit with
the rest of the piece at all and do read as petty potshots is probably
damning enough.
> That, and failing to realize that people stopped reading Wolverine
> because he started drawing it.
Sales went up on his run; I don't think the conclusion that follows is that
people stopped reading the book, much as I'd like it to be true.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Kate the Short --- Spamblocked!
Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> sat on the
sofa and said:
>>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> sat on the
>>sofa and said:
>>
>>>"Like being cornered by bedbugs."
>>
>>I wanna see *that* in a comic book.
>
>It was, in Stormwatch, Volume 1, the issue where Jackson King is
>assaulted by racist terrorists.
But were they actually *bedbugs*?
Alan David Doane
<ka...@enteract.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <8u1gkt08920d9okm2...@4ax.com>,
>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> sat on the
>sofa and said:
>><ka...@enteract.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> sat on the
>>>sofa and said:
>>>
>>>>"Like being cornered by bedbugs."
>>>
>>>I wanna see *that* in a comic book.
>>
>>It was, in Stormwatch, Volume 1, the issue where Jackson King is
>>assaulted by racist terrorists.
>
>But were they actually *bedbugs*?
No, they were racist terrorists. Jackson told them being captured by
them was like being cornered by bedbugs.
How come there's no superhero called "The Bedbug?"
Alan D. Earhart
Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> V. Yim at "xieze-qilin[no spam please]"@telus.net wrote:
>
> > nothing but petty potshots at Joe Quesada, criticizing JoeQ
> > for his shortcomings as an artist ... when he has said nothing of his own
>
> I didn't realize it was a rule that you had to criticize yourself in order
> to criticize others. That would make reviews *really* interesting to read.
> :)
>
> Yeah, Liefeld's got huge problems, but that doesn't make his points
> automatically invalid. I'm not saying they're valid, either, only that they
> should be evaluated as points on their own merit. That they don't fit with
> the rest of the piece at all and do read as petty potshots is probably
> damning enough.
That's the problem I have with his column. I find that I can't evaluate
it solely on content. I simply shake my head in amusement whenever he
criticizes other people for things he's been known to do himself.
I would like to see a column where he does talk about himself and both
the good and bad he's done for the industry. Until then, I can only
smirk.
Omarichu
>criticizes other people for things he's been known to do himself.
No doubt letting the groupthink around here control yourself. It must not be
fun envying someone so much to the extent that you actually have to deny it
with moronic statements like this one.
>I would like to see a column where he does talk about himself and both
>the good and bad he's done for the industry. Until then, I can only
>smirk.
>
And the rest of us can smirk at you, knowing how unbelievably jealous you are
of someone who really hasn't done a whole lot with his life. Keep trying.
Omarichu
>Not at all. Liefeld's column was filled to the brim in almost every
>single word with hypocrisy, misdirection, obfuscation, and sheer,
>undeserved arrogance.
Looks like the lardass finally pushed aside the donuts and found a thesaurus.
>His vile
>business practices, godawful lack of talent, and shameless promotion
>of projects that (thank God) for the most part never see the light of
>day.
Your striking envy at being Rob Liefeld, or at least having some contribution
to the comic industry besides a site no one reads, might be amusing were it not
so pathetic. You might want to try a bit harder at masking it; it's not doing
you any favors around here.
>So, as I pointed out with sarcasm, even a permanently-in-denial mental
>defective like Rob Liefeld can understand that the twisted,
>quasi-erotic mano-a-mano scenarios that Tieri interjects into
>virtually every story are not good stories for characters like
>Wolverine and Iron Man. But as the old cliche goes, even a broken
>clock is right twice a day.
Which would put this two levels above yourself. Keep posting; we could use the
laughs.
John Savard
wrote, in part:
>We'd love to have more columnists but I think any new columnist
>should probably balance out some of the negative columns we've been running.
I know you probably didn't mean that the way it sounded.
A sentence like that could easily provoke incendiary flames with the
words "industry shill" featured prominently.
Also, whether or not it is appropriate to associate "negativity" with
Rob Liefield, somehow I suspect that the real "balance" of which your
site is in need would come from people with views similar to those of
David Anthony Kraft or Joanna Draper Carlson. But that would not mean
you would be getting columns which now were primarily positive about
the state of the comics industry as it is instead of negative.
(This isn't to say, though, that Joanna couldn't write you a column
nicely positive in tone about the comics of which she approves. The
problem there would simply be that those would not be the comics
discussed elsewhere on the site.)
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
John Savard
<aear...@femtowatt-club.com> wrote, in part:
>I would like to see a column where he does talk about himself and both
>the good and bad he's done for the industry. Until then, I can only
>smirk.
I think that if he ever attempted that, I would *begin* to smirk. What
makes you think he is better qualified to make a realistic assessment
of his role in the comics industry than, say, John Byrne?
Obviously, if either of these men were able to realize what it is they
were doing, they would stop doing it.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
Anthony Chelette
fan. Really. I was. I even liked the Eagle he put on Cap's head instead of
the big retarded "A". But I found that with each passing year he made more
and more promises to the industry that he just could not keep. It seemed he
was willing to always jump to a new idea before finishing the one he
previously had. I really wish there could have been a really long run of
Supreme comics by Alan Moore, Chris Sprouse, and Alex Ross. But its a dream
that will never come true because Rob seems to be unable to buckle down for
the long haul.
Joe Q. on the other hand, seems to be sticking to his guns more so than Rob
says he does. Sure books are late and he has not pencilled a long "run" in
quite some time, but he follows through with everything he has promised.
Whatever you might think of Marvel's books, they are better now than they
have been for almost a decade. X-Force is NOTHING like it was before. Spidey
is down right READABLE once more, and creators don't puke at the thought of
working at Marvel anymore. That in and of itself is an accomplishment.
No, I do not think Rob's column was well written and well thought out. The
man stated that writers only get attention now because pencillers are in
short supply. Bullshit. Let me tell you, there are some really butt-ugly
issues of the Sandman out there, but they still rock thanks to Neil Gaiman.
And there are some shitty looking X-Factor and Hulk books done, but thanks
to Peter David they still made me bust a gut laughing. Story and
storytelling are the only way you can get a solid productŠ it can never be
just about the visuals.
Peace out.
Anthony
James Hunt (Urthworm)
God damn, that's so funny it should be illegal.
::saves copy::
Allen Hui
there is a slight imbalance in the voice of our site. While all our columnists,
reviews and message board users are free to say whatever they want and their
opinions do not necessarily reflect that of Spinner Rack, it does make it a bit
counter-productive if the site wants to promote comics.
Rob's column is negative in that it started more angry discussions than
complimentary ones. I think his column was meant to compliment creators he's
liked. The Joey Q thing at the end seemed like an afterthought but that's what
many people latched on to.
We just want honest opinions from our contributors and have a spectrum of views
since that is the way of the comic book world.
-Allen
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Anthony Chelette <chele...@home.com> wrote:
>Well then let me set the record straight. I used to be a big Rob Liefeld
>fan. Really. I was. I even liked the Eagle he put on Cap's head instead of
>the big retarded "A". But I found that with each passing year he made more
>and more promises to the industry that he just could not keep. It seemed he
>was willing to always jump to a new idea before finishing the one he
>previously had. I really wish there could have been a really long run of
>Supreme comics by Alan Moore, Chris Sprouse, and Alex Ross. But its a dream
>that will never come true because Rob seems to be unable to buckle down for
>the long haul.
See, you are being emotional again. 8^) You have good reasons to not
like Rob's creative output, but this doesn't mean his column was not a
worthwhile read.
>Joe Q. on the other hand, seems to be sticking to his guns more so than Rob
>says he does. Sure books are late and he has not pencilled a long "run" in
>quite some time, but he follows through with everything he has promised.
>Whatever you might think of Marvel's books, they are better now than they
>have been for almost a decade. X-Force is NOTHING like it was before. Spidey
>is down right READABLE once more, and creators don't puke at the thought of
>working at Marvel anymore. That in and of itself is an accomplishment.
I would like to point out that just some Marvel books (and only
some of them) are better than most books Marvel has produced in the last
decade (and some of them were not as bad as the whole line either).
Overall, right now, the quality of all of Marvel's books is only slightly
better, in my opinion, than their books of the last decade. For every
critically acclaimed X-Force, Amazing Spider-Man, or New X-Men (and
even those are all debatable), there is still a faltering Iron Man, a weak
Uncanny X-Men, or a pointless Daredevil: Yellow. (All of this is my
opinion of course.) I'm willing to give Joe Quesada time to effect
sales on Marvel's entire line of books however since he's only been EIC for
what ... 9 months?, a point that Rob Liefeld missed.
>No, I do not think Rob's column was well written and well thought out. The
>man stated that writers only get attention now because pencillers are in
>short supply. Bullshit.
And what I am saying is just because you disagree with Rob's column,
doesn't mean it wasn't well written and well thought out, because it
was. You have a different take on things than he does. Guess what,
opinions are a dime a dozen. Everyone has them. And listening to
someone else's will only broaden your mind and understanding of things.
>Let me tell you, there are some really butt-ugly
>issues of the Sandman out there, but they still rock thanks to Neil Gaiman.
>And there are some shitty looking X-Factor and Hulk books done, but thanks
>to Peter David they still made me bust a gut laughing. Story and
>storytelling are the only way you can get a solid productŠ it can never be
>just about the visuals.
>
>Peace out.
>
>Anthony
They may have all be critically acclaimed series, but none of them set
the sales charts on fire. Hulk did, maybe, but X-Factor didn't under
PAD and Sandman had mediocre to poor sales at best. I understand that
people want quality books as they define quality, and that is great, but
those books won't exist if good selling books (which may not necessarily
and probably won't be considered "high-art") exist as well. Like it or
not, it usually takes an artist, not the writer, to create the good
selling books. I think we need some of both right now to help the
industry out.
RJRJR
Alan D. Earhart
<jsa...@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jul 2001 10:49:02 -0500, "Alan D. Earhart"
> <aear...@femtowatt-club.com> wrote, in part:
>
> >I would like to see a column where he does talk about himself and both
> >the good and bad he's done for the industry. Until then, I can only
> >smirk.
>
> I think that if he ever attempted that, I would *begin* to smirk. What
> makes you think he is better qualified to make a realistic assessment
> of his role in the comics industry than, say, John Byrne?
I never said anything about his qualifications. I really want to know
what Rob thinks about his influence.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Dude, you are way too emotional about this subject to understand that
>Rob's column was a well-written, well-thought out editorial on his take
>on current Marvel and upcoming artists. It's okay to hate Rob for
Strictly based on what I remember of his own Marvel and Youngblood
work, and especially the sorts of artists he hired in the first year or two
at Image... I have to wonder about listening to Leifeld's evaluation of
comic artists. I mean, yeah, part of it is just a matter of taste, but
there's also technical issues here. (and yeah, there's a fuzzy line between
aesthetics and technical stuff toom I guess.)
--
Wow, a baseball made out of Secretariat!
-- Bart gazes upon the Spend Zone, "You Only Move Twice"
John Savard
<aear...@femtowatt-club.com> wrote, in part:
>I never said anything about his qualifications. I really want to know
>what Rob thinks about his influence.
I misunderstood you then; I too would be amused to hear what he has to
say for himself. Although I don't dislike all his work, unlike some.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
Anthony Chelette
anatomy, but that fact that everything seems so slapped together. You can
just SEE the deadline in his work; in the way things are out of perspective,
the way he puts all his time and energy in to his figures but very little
into anything else. It is as if he just wanted to draw people and guns. He
never makes it look easy, it is so tense and unnervingã and not in a way
that helps or adds to a story. There just isn't a logical sense of order to
things in a Rob Liefeld book. It is as if a surfer decided he could draw.
Im sorry, was that too emotional?
> From: arc...@sfu.ca (Andrew Ryan Chang)
> Organization: Simon Fraser University
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc,rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe
> Date: 8 Jul 2001 23:27:40 GMT
> Subject: Re: The Rob Liefeld Translation Algorithm
>
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Anthony Chelette <chele...@home.com> wrote:
>The thing that makes Rob's art for me so frustrating is not his style or his
>anatomy, but that fact that everything seems so slapped together. You can
>just SEE the deadline in his work; in the way things are out of perspective,
>the way he puts all his time and energy in to his figures but very little
>into anything else. It is as if he just wanted to draw people and guns. He
>never makes it look easy, it is so tense and unnervingã and not in a way
>that helps or adds to a story. There just isn't a logical sense of order to
>things in a Rob Liefeld book. It is as if a surfer decided he could draw.
>
>Im sorry, was that too emotional?
No, but then again, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
RJRJR
V. Yim
>
> >Pointing out the hypocrisy, deception and downright evil force Rob
> >Liefeld has exercised on comics for a decade now has been a consistent
> >interest of mine from virtually the moment I got online.
>
> Which of course masks an almost obsessive level of envy (i.e., that he'll write
> and draw more comic books than you ever will) as well as a great deal of
> hypocrisy on your part. Sorry if the whole "Image=Bad" no longer works to make
> you look like anything more than a complete bitch. Keep trying, loser.
While I know enough to not to speak for our esteemed poster Alan David
Doane, you do raise a point. Heck, I'm jealous myself, and a little
bitter as well. Sure, my artistic skills aren't up to snuff, nor are my
writing skills (it's really tough to stay focused). And yes, Rob
Liefeld will most likely be more of a prolific writer/artist than I can
hope to be.
But if not me, what about other artists and writers that have a really
hard time getting off the ground? I've met plenty of them, many of them
with rendering and writing skills lightyears beyond tiny feet, stupid
shoulder pads, massive quadraceps, gritted teeth, gigantic guns, and
piss poor dialogue. They have difficulty getting work, and Rob Liefeld
continues to do so, given his relatively poor track record.
Peace,
Vince Yim
V. Yim
>
> V. Yim at "xieze-qilin[no spam please]"@telus.net wrote:
>
> > nothing but petty potshots at Joe Quesada, criticizing JoeQ
> > for his shortcomings as an artist ... when he has said nothing of his own
>
> I didn't realize it was a rule that you had to criticize yourself in order
> to criticize others. That would make reviews *really* interesting to read.
> :)
There isn't. Heck, I'm all for free speech. However, if you are unable
to practice what you preach, get ready for someone to point that out.
> Yeah, Liefeld's got huge problems, but that doesn't make his points
> automatically invalid. I'm not saying they're valid, either, only that they
> should be evaluated as points on their own merit. That they don't fit with
> the rest of the piece at all and do read as petty potshots is probably
> damning enough.
He did have a few good points, I thought. But you do realize how
difficult it is to see the merit in them when he immediately turns
around and slams someone else for something he does regularly, don'tcha?
> > That, and failing to realize that people stopped reading Wolverine
> > because he started drawing it.
>
> Sales went up on his run; I don't think the conclusion that follows is that
> people stopped reading the book, much as I'd like it to be true.
Really? _I_ stopped reading it. :)
I really should check on the date though...was the October 2000 date he
mentioned at around the time when he was drawing it?
Peace,
Vince Yim
Carl Henderson
news:3B481E8C...@spinnerrack.com:
> We've received many angry emails from people who feel Spinner Rack
> shouldn't have given Rob a column. We've also been criticized on our
> message boards and in other forums for this. When I said
> controversial, I meant that it prompted this thread and on others on
> message boards. I hope I've clarified it a bit.
Screw them. It's your site. As long as you feel Rob Liefeld has interesting
things to say it is none of their business.
Really, there is a bit of a "pile-on" mentality at work here. Rob Liefeld
has become a creator that it's considered cool to insult and mock. While he
has had serious problems with anatomy and design (as an artist) and with
running a busieness (as publisher of Extreme/Maximum/Awesome), he's far
from the anti-christ he's often made out to be. For myself, I'll always be
grateful to Liefeld for 20 issues of the Alan Moore SUPREME. I just wish he
could get the funding together to release a collection.
--
Carl Henderson rec.arts.comics/rec.arts.comics.misc FAQ
carl.he...@airmail.net www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
| Do you want to KEEP or REMOVE rac.other-media, rac.alternative, or |
| rac.european? Please visit rec.arts.comics.misc now, and read the |
| comments under this thread: "Pre-RFD: REMOVING GROUPS: More data." |
Carl Henderson
news:jdjgkt4bqbp8o6af6...@4ax.com:
> Rob, of course, invokes issues like this to draw attention away from
> the only topics that he really has a right to discuss: His vile
> business practices [...]
Why does Liefeld not have the right to discuss any topic he feels like?
And why do you characterize his business practices as "vile"? I'm honestly
curious here. I know he has had business problems, but from what I've read
they all seem to be born of over-optimism and bad financial management. Has
he been actively cheating and/or deceiving people?
Carl Henderson
news:by427.171412$L4.20...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com:
> They may have all be critically acclaimed series, but none of them set
> the sales charts on fire. Hulk did, maybe, but X-Factor didn't under
> PAD and Sandman had mediocre to poor sales at best.
I don't know about PAD's sales on X-FACTOR, but the pamphlet sales of
SANDMAN are only the tip of the iceberg. The SANDMAN TPBs have been
continously in print since publication. I would suspect that their sales
far exceed the initial sales of the comic book run.
Carl Henderson
news:3B490095...@telus.net:
> But if not me, what about other artists and writers that have a really
> hard time getting off the ground? I've met plenty of them, many of
> them with rendering and writing skills lightyears beyond tiny feet,
> stupid shoulder pads, massive quadraceps, gritted teeth, gigantic guns,
> and piss poor dialogue. They have difficulty getting work, and Rob
> Liefeld continues to do so, given his relatively poor track record.
As long as his books continue to sell, he will continue to get work.
Alan David Doane
Henderson) wrote:
>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote in
>news:jdjgkt4bqbp8o6af6...@4ax.com:
>
>> Rob, of course, invokes issues like this to draw attention away from
>> the only topics that he really has a right to discuss: His vile
>> business practices [...]
>
>Why does Liefeld not have the right to discuss any topic he feels like?
>
>And why do you characterize his business practices as "vile"? I'm honestly
>curious here. I know he has had business problems, but from what I've read
>they all seem to be born of over-optimism and bad financial management. Has
>he been actively cheating and/or deceiving people?
The original Image partners seemed to feel he was cheating them.
That's why he is no longer at Image.
Ask Kurt Busiek if Rob tries to deceive people.
Ask Marvel about Agent America, and see if you detect any deception or
obfuscation there.
Rob has a long history of murky dealings and hooking his name up to
legitimate creators. To get a bit Buffy here, he's like the moon,
always trying to reflect the light of a real star with his own yellowy
mooonness.
Alan David Doane
Editor-in-Chief
Comic Book Galaxy
One of Usenet's Most Beloved Comics Web Sites
http://www.comicbookgalaxy.com
Mute at 33 1/3
>rjrjr@yavin (Ronald J. Rickard Jr.) wrote in
>news:by427.171412$L4.20...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com:
>
>> They may have all be critically acclaimed series, but none of them set
>> the sales charts on fire. Hulk did, maybe, but X-Factor didn't under
>> PAD and Sandman had mediocre to poor sales at best.
>I don't know about PAD's sales on X-FACTOR, but the pamphlet sales of
>SANDMAN are only the tip of the iceberg. The SANDMAN TPBs have been
>continously in print since publication. I would suspect that their sales
>far exceed the initial sales of the comic book run.
And the pamphlets were selling close to, if not over, 100,000 an
issue by the last couple of years of the run.
-Chris
__________________________
flubegone
Ross Barker
s.net>, Carl Henderson <carl.he...@airmail.net> writes
>rjrjr@yavin (Ronald J. Rickard Jr.) wrote in
>news:by427.171412$L4.20...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com:
>
>> They may have all be critically acclaimed series, but none of them set
>> the sales charts on fire. Hulk did, maybe, but X-Factor didn't under
>> PAD and Sandman had mediocre to poor sales at best.
>
>I don't know about PAD's sales on X-FACTOR, but the pamphlet sales of
>SANDMAN are only the tip of the iceberg. The SANDMAN TPBs have been
>continously in print since publication. I would suspect that their sales
>far exceed the initial sales of the comic book run.
>
According to, I believe, Hy Bender's THE SANDMAN COMPANION, the Sandman
TPBs have sold over a million copies worldwide. I suspect that
substantially outpaces the comics.
Ross
Alan David Doane
Allen Montgomery) wrote:
> You're an idiot. The reason Liefeld's companies kept going under
>is because he paid people more than he could realistically afford to.
>Don't try to express your distaste for his work with a libelous account of
>his business practices. One has nothing to do with the other.
No, you're an idiot, and an uneducated one, at that.
From The Comics Journal:
"Despite his admitted disinterest in Image business affairs, the
partners had seen fit to invest Liefeld with the powers of its top
corporate offices, including that of chief executive officer, chief
financial officer and secretary. Liefeld, who was notorious for
snoozing through official meetings, was principal check-signing
officer of the company. Among the many accusations against Liefeld,
which came to light in subsequently filed legal complaints, was the
charge that he routinely used his check-writing powers to cover
personal debts from Image funds. Other dissatisfactions with Liefeld
ranged from his alleged habit of copying art from other partners'
comics to his plans to move titles that had been established at Image
to the non-Image Maximum Press. In addition to allegedly siphoning
funds, he was said to have used Image staff to do promotional and
production work for Maximum."
After Image broke up, The Journal's in-depth coverage says:
"Lawsuits followed...Image [filed a] cross-complaint [in response to a
suit from Liefeld], in which it accused Liefeld of misusing Image
funds and staff for Maximum Press projects, copying pre-publication
artwork from other Image artists and using Image as leverage to force
vendors to provide services to Maximum Press on credit. The Image
complaint alleged damages in excess of $1.2 million, including $85,000
in funds overpaid to Liefeld in 1993 and more than $240,000 in Image
funds used by Liefeld to pay his own expenses. The cross-complaint
also alleged that Image had suffered financial losses and damage to
its reputation as a result of titles that were marketed and solicited
through Image but taken out of Image's hands when Liefeld departed to
start his own line."
Yes, Rob is "Mr. Ethics."
Of course, the various suits were settled privately, but the available
evidence regarding Liefeld's practices is pretty damning. See, for
example, his attempted trademark infringement with "Agent America"
after he was fired from Captain America, or his false claims that Kurt
Busiek was writing a project for him, which Busiek had to deal with
while suffering ongoing health problems.
Wotta guy.
CleV
Henderson) wrote:
>For myself, I'll always be
>grateful to Liefeld for 20 issues of the Alan Moore SUPREME. I just wish he
>could get the funding together to release a collection.
Amen brother!
Omarichu
>That's why he is no longer at Image.
>
>Ask Kurt Busiek if Rob tries to deceive people.
>
>Ask Marvel about Agent America, and see if you detect any deception or
>obfuscation there.
>
>Rob has a long history of murky dealings and hooking his name up to
>legitimate creators. To get a bit Buffy here, he's like the moon,
>always trying to reflect the light of a real star with his own yellowy
>mooonness.
I see your entire "proof" of Liefeld's "vile" business practices is hearsay.
Not that I'm surprised at this turn of events since, given the amount of empty
Vaseline jars in your room, you do love to bash Liefeld. You shouldn't let
someone so far above you get to you so much - if he ever looked down at the
people he was passing on the way to the top, he might feel bad for a single
moment. But probably not, considering you're not worth it.
Elayne Riggs
Henderson):
>Really, there is a bit of a "pile-on" mentality at work here. Rob Liefeld
>has become a creator that it's considered cool to insult and mock.
Hang on, I thought that was McFarlane. No wait, that's on Comicon,
right? Gah, I'm so confused, when will someone besides Rich Johnston
come out with a scorecard on these things?
- Elayne
--
www.soulmateproductions.com
remove "OSPAM" from e-mail address to reply
Alan Travis
> On 9 Jul 2001 05:25:14 GMT, quoth carl.he...@airmail.net (Carl
> Henderson):
>
> >Really, there is a bit of a "pile-on" mentality at work here. Rob Liefeld
> >has become a creator that it's considered cool to insult and mock.
>
> Hang on, I thought that was McFarlane. No wait, that's on Comicon,
> right? Gah, I'm so confused, when will someone besides Rich Johnston
> come out with a scorecard on these things?
I thought it was John Byrne. Brian Michael Bendis thinks so.
Alan
Alan David Doane
Allen Montgomery) wrote:
>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
> I'll say it again for you: Liefeld's business practices have
>nothing to do with the relative merits of his work. All the legal issues
>you parrot are old, old news.
Yes, of course. OJ plays a great round of golf, who cares about those
unsubstantiated charges from way back in the 20th century?
I guess you're the troll I've been told you are. Your lack of
Omarichu-like stupidity in some posts had me fooled.
> Liefeld may not draw very well, but you can't even draw a line from
>point A to point B without veering off into your own personal disdain for
>point C. Idiot.
Oops. So much for not aping Omar. Well, there's another one for the
kill filter.
Omarichu
>unsubstantiated charges from way back in the 20th century?
I guess your idiotic, cliched, and completely ineffective bashing of Rob
Liefeld has gotten you so angry that you're now actually comparing him to OJ
Simpson. Perhaps when you can learn not to be such a plant, more people will
listen to you rather than pointing and laughing. Keep trying, fatass.
John Savard
(Elayne Riggs) wrote, in part:
>>Really, there is a bit of a "pile-on" mentality at work here. Rob Liefeld
>>has become a creator that it's considered cool to insult and mock.
>Hang on, I thought that was McFarlane. No wait, that's on Comicon,
>right? Gah, I'm so confused, when will someone besides Rich Johnston
>come out with a scorecard on these things?
I thought, though, that Rob Liefield is one of the more obvious cases,
second only to John Byrne.
Other than his habit of drawing those funny lines on people's faces -
I enjoyed "Supreme: The Return", but of course one could give Alan
Moore the credit for that - I think the problem with Mr. Liefield is
that he is supposed to represent all the worst things about comics
today. Like he was the first guy with the idea to give women
unrealistically generous endowments in comics. Also, he has been
involved with titles with violent content.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
Christopher Griffen
Ever since I saw Liefeld's column on Spinnerrack, I've boycotted the
site. I'm sorry, but I can't condone, endorse or visit a site that
allows a numbnuts like Liefeld to editorialize. At least your post
shows me that he's every bit the writer that he is an artist! ;-)
Elayne Riggs
<alnt...@earthlink.net>:
Oh, it seems to be Byrne on just about every newsgroup and message
board. :)
Alan David Doane
Griffen) wrote:
Oh, lord, I have to admit if Rob had come to Comic Book Galaxy with a
column, I certainly would give it to him. As I've stated earlier, I'm
a firm believer in giving creeps like him enough rope to hang
themselves. Who would have thought he'd do it right out of the gate,
though?
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
>
>The original Image partners seemed to feel he was cheating them.
>That's why he is no longer at Image.
I read that he is no longer at Image because they did not like the
image that Rob was bringing to the company. He was too controversial
in a bad way. There was no case of cheating going on.
>Ask Kurt Busiek if Rob tries to deceive people.
I wouldn't know about this.
>Ask Marvel about Agent America, and see if you detect any deception or
>obfuscation there.
Agent America? Are you talking about the Fighting American? Also,
if Marvel felt deception, why hire Rob to draw Captain America or
Wolverine as recently as late last year? The Fighting American
is an old character.
>Rob has a long history of murky dealings and hooking his name up to
>legitimate creators. To get a bit Buffy here, he's like the moon,
>always trying to reflect the light of a real star with his own yellowy
>mooonness.
>Alan David Doane
It sounds like the only think murky here is your opinion of Rob
Liefeld. The more I read about how you think he is the devil, the
more I wonder what your motive is here.
RJRJR
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Which, at the time, it was coming out translated to weak sales.
Now, I won't even pretend to know how the TPBs sell. I suspect they
must sell well, otherwise DC would have dropped Vertigo quite a while
ago.
RJRJR
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>In article <kgqikt0jpch0g3as0...@4ax.com>,
>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
>>
>>The original Image partners seemed to feel he was cheating them.
>>That's why he is no longer at Image.
>
>I read that he is no longer at Image because they did not like the
>image that Rob was bringing to the company. He was too controversial
>in a bad way. There was no case of cheating going on.
Then why did they sue him for it?
>Agent America? Are you talking about the Fighting American?
No, dipshit, I'm talking about Agent America. Have some idea what
you're talking about if you're going to argue the facts.
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:19:30 GMT, rjrjr@yavin (Ronald J. Rickard Jr.)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <kgqikt0jpch0g3as0...@4ax.com>,
>>Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
>>>
>>>The original Image partners seemed to feel he was cheating them.
>>>That's why he is no longer at Image.
>>
>>I read that he is no longer at Image because they did not like the
>>image that Rob was bringing to the company. He was too controversial
>>in a bad way. There was no case of cheating going on.
>
>Then why did they sue him for it?
I was unaware of this. I noticed you quoted the Comics Journal
during this discussion. I'm surprised this lawsuit wasn't more
widely publicized in the comic community and here online. (Or
maybe it was and I dismissed it as more Rob bashing for the sake
of Rob bashing.) Was it really a case of Rob cheating Image, or
Rob using his money from Image to finance a separate comic
company without the Image name?
>>Agent America? Are you talking about the Fighting American?
>
>No, dipshit, I'm talking about Agent America. Have some idea what
>you're talking about if you're going to argue the facts.
>
>Alan David Doane
>Editor-in-Chief
I asked a question. Are you incapable of reading? I specifically
put a ? after my words since I wasn't sure what character
you were talking about, since I've never heard of "Agent America"
and I knew Rob had done something with Fighting American. An
intelligent person would have probably explained who "Agent
America" was.
Explains why no one is ranting about Comic Galaxy or whatever it
is you are the self-proclaimed EIC of.
RJRJR
Billy Bissette
says...
> In article <28rvktg2la08r65b1...@4ax.com>,
> Alan David Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> wrote:
> >On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:19:30 GMT, rjrjr@yavin (Ronald J. Rickard Jr.)
> >wrote:
> >
> >No, dipshit, I'm talking about Agent America. Have some idea what
> >you're talking about if you're going to argue the facts.
>
> put a ? after my words since I wasn't sure what character
> you were talking about, since I've never heard of "Agent America"
> and I knew Rob had done something with Fighting American. An
> intelligent person would have probably explained who "Agent
> America" was.
Going from fuzzy memory, Liefeld decided to do a blatent rip-off
of Captain America called Agent America. To the point it could
have been a different version of Heroes Reborn Cap...
This led to Liefeld getting the rights to Fighting American, as
there was no way Agent America could have made print as it was
designed without Liefeld being sued and losing badly. It was
that blatent...
I'm pretty certain the first couple of issues were solicited
via Previews, with a multipage spread for the first. (Unless my
fuzzy memory is acting up again and thinking of Fighting American's
solicitation.) If it is, I've probably copies of the solicitation
in my archives as it was just too priceless to toss.
Ronald J. Rickard Jr.
Thank you. Now it makes sense and I do remember this issue concerning
the character now. The reason I forgot was because it never saw print.
RJRJR
Steven Rowe
>This led to Liefeld getting the rights to Fighting American, as
>there was no way Agent America could have made print as it was
>designed without Liefeld being sued and losing badly. It was
>that blatent...
>
> I'm pretty certain the first couple of issues were solicited
>via Previews, with a multipage spread for the first. (Unless my
>fuzzy memory is acting up again and thinking of Fighting American's
>solicitation.) If it is, I've probably copies of the solicitation
>in my archives as it was just too priceless to toss.
>
yeah, i seem to recall it did go to court, Liefeld didn't lose THAT badly.. and
he morped into Fighting American.
(see google for the thousands of threads here on RACM)
steven rowe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
Don't forget to Delete "Unspam" if you wish to e- mail me.
join the FelixTheCat list at www.egroups.com
.
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>Thank you. Now it makes sense and I do remember this issue concerning
>the character now. The reason I forgot was because it never saw print.
As, of course, is the case with many of Rob's evil plans. Say, for
instance, the Youngblood project he claimed Kurt Busiek was writing,
then backed off of when Busiek made him admit that he was working from
a threadbare old plot and had no write to claim Busiek was writing for
his sham comics company.
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>I was unaware [Liefeld was sued]. I noticed you quoted the Comics Journal
>during this discussion. I'm surprised this lawsuit wasn't more
>widely publicized in the comic community and here online. (Or
>maybe it was and I dismissed it as more Rob bashing for the sake
>of Rob bashing.) Was it really a case of Rob cheating Image, or
>Rob using his money from Image to finance a separate comic
>company without the Image name?
Since they settled out of court and agreed to keep it all quiet,
there's no saying one way or the other if the accusations were true.
On the other hand, if I were Rob and their claims I cheated my
partners were false, I would not stop til they paid the penalty for
their lies. So to me, his settling says a lot.
>I asked a question. Are you incapable of reading? I specifically
>put a ? after my words since I wasn't sure what character
>you were talking about, since I've never heard of "Agent America"
>and I knew Rob had done something with Fighting American. An
>intelligent person would have probably explained who "Agent
>America" was.
Oh, all right. After Rob was fired from Captain America during Heroes
Reborn, he repackaged some of the artwork in a very superficial way,
and advertised his new project, "Agent America," featuring, IIRC, a
female Bucky-like character and Cap and the Red Skull transferred
pretty much whole. Marvel, IIRC, threatened to sue, and the next thing
you know, Rob had secured the rights to Fighting American. A pathetic
attempt to cover up his attempted trademark infringement. Say what you
will about my reaction to your post, the man is a scumbag, and all the
flamewars in the world won't change a damned thing about that.
Joe Ankenbauer
> Oh, all right. After Rob was fired from Captain America during Heroes
> Reborn, he repackaged some of the artwork in a very superficial way,
> and advertised his new project, "Agent America," featuring, IIRC, a
> female Bucky-like character and Cap and the Red Skull transferred
> pretty much whole. Marvel, IIRC, threatened to sue, and the next thing
> you know, Rob had secured the rights to Fighting American. A pathetic
> attempt to cover up his attempted trademark infringement. Say what you
> will about my reaction to your post, the man is a scumbag, and all the
> flamewars in the world won't change a damned thing about that.
This was about the same time that I saw Rob at the Chicago Comicon (this was
before it had been turned into a Wizard convention) wearing a shirt saying
"Marvel Can Suck My C***."
As Alan stated, a real pro all the way around.
JMA
Johanna Draper Carlson
> wearing a shirt saying "Marvel Can Suck My C***."
He wasn't the only one wearing that shirt that year; someone had a booth
with them in protest of the Heroes World fiasco.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Jeff Coleman
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
news:B775E3BC.44AAB%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
> Joe Ankenbauer at anken...@home.com wrote:
>
> > wearing a shirt saying "Marvel Can Suck My C***."
>
> He wasn't the only one wearing that shirt that year; someone had a booth
> with them in protest of the Heroes World fiasco.
If I recall correctly, wasn't Hart Fisher behind that shirt? I'd to get one
:)
Jeff
Steven Rowe
<alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes:
>As, of course, is the case with many of Rob's evil plans. Say, for
>instance, the Youngblood project he claimed Kurt Busiek was writing,
>then backed off of when Busiek made him admit that he was working from
>a threadbare old plot and had no write to claim Busiek was writing for
>his sham comics company.
a plot is writing.
so heindeed could claim that Busiek had written for his company.
The actual problem is that he knew Busiek would not be doing the dialogue, and
that was not mentioned in Previews
Not only is ploting writing, I feel that one of the major problems with
comics these days is that they are not ploted well enough.
Alan David Doane
wrote:
You know, Joe, I had heard about that shirt, but forgot it in my
laundry list of reasons why Rob is a swell guy. Maybe I need to start
a FAQ...
Alan David Doane
wrote:
>
>a plot is writing.
Yes, and an old plot is old writing. As always, Obfuscatin' Robbie
wanted to misdirect readers into thinking they were getting the full
monty from Busiek, instead of the old, threadbare plot Kurt had
written years before.
"Look at me! I own artwork drawn by GEORGE PEREZ!"
"Look at me! I got ALAN MOORE to write stories for me!"
"Look at me! Look at me! Damn you, LOOK AT ME!"
Joe Ankenbauer
> On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:47:34 GMT, Joe Ankenbauer <anken...@home.com>
> wrote:
> >This was about the same time that I saw Rob at the Chicago Comicon (this was
> >before it had been turned into a Wizard convention) wearing a shirt saying
> >"Marvel Can Suck My C***."
> >
> >As Alan stated, a real pro all the way around.
>
> You know, Joe, I had heard about that shirt, but forgot it in my
> laundry list of reasons why Rob is a swell guy. Maybe I need to start
> a FAQ...
In another reply, Johanna Draper Carlson stated that these were sold by someone
who was upset with the Marvel / Heroes World fiasco. I'm not trying to start an
argument, but I was at that con the whole three days, and I don't remember seeing
anyone else wearing one of those shirts. Conversely, I <DO> remember the big
to-do that arose when Rob showed up with his shirt.
JMA
Alan David Doane
wrote:
Well, really, who would notice Hart Fisher, or even know what he looks
like? As I recall (from TCJ coverage at the time), the shirts WERE
created by Fisher...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone'll gracefully
point out my error.
Carl Henderson
[discussion of SANDMAN sales in comic book format deleted]
> Which, at the time, it was coming out translated to weak sales.
Not really. The last two issues of SANDMAN were in the top 20 direct market
books. I suspect that others toward the end of its run also sold well, but
I don't have sales charts going that far back.
--
Carl Henderson rec.arts.comics/rec.arts.comics.misc FAQ
carl.he...@airmail.net www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
| Do you want to KEEP or REMOVE rac.other-media, rac.alternative, or |
| rac.european? Please visit rec.arts.comics.misc now, and read the |
| comments under this thread: "Pre-RFD: REMOVING GROUPS: More data." |
| Please watch for RFDs to officially name the groups to be removed. |
| You can email Kate at ra...@yahoo.com if you would like more info. |
Mute at 33 1/3
>In article <3b49...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
>Mute at 33 1/3 <mu...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>carl.he...@airmail.net (Carl Henderson) digitally declared:
>>>rjrjr@yavin (Ronald J. Rickard Jr.) wrote in
>>>news:by427.171412$L4.20...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com:
>>>
>>>> They may have all be critically acclaimed series, but none of them set
>>>> the sales charts on fire. Hulk did, maybe, but X-Factor didn't under
>>>> PAD and Sandman had mediocre to poor sales at best.
>>
>>>I don't know about PAD's sales on X-FACTOR, but the pamphlet sales of
>>>SANDMAN are only the tip of the iceberg. The SANDMAN TPBs have been
>>>continously in print since publication. I would suspect that their sales
>>>far exceed the initial sales of the comic book run.
>>
>> And the pamphlets were selling close to, if not over, 100,000 an
>>issue by the last couple of years of the run.
>Which, at the time, it was coming out translated to weak sales.
Although it was outselling regular Superman and Batman titles? And
was one of DC's top five or so books overall?
Huh.
-Chris
__________________________
np: WAH! The Maverick Years
Paul O'Brien
Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes
>
>Well, really, who would notice Hart Fisher, or even know what he looks
>like?
Who the hell IS Hart Fisher? I don't think I've ever heard of him.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
Because my viewpoints are inherently fascinating.
Alan David Doane
<pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <5sp1lto5eohtet3v7...@4ax.com>, Alan David
>Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes
>>
>>Well, really, who would notice Hart Fisher, or even know what he looks
>>like?
>
>Who the hell IS Hart Fisher? I don't think I've ever heard of him.
>
>Paul O'Brien
See?
;-)
IIRC, he did some adult-oriented parody crap. I think he was the guy,
for example, behind the Howard Stern vs. Rush Limbaugh thing. Again,
if I'm wrong, I am sure some polite good samaritan will step in and
assist me.
Billy Bissette
pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk says...
> In article <5sp1lto5eohtet3v7...@4ax.com>, Alan David
> Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes
> >
> >Well, really, who would notice Hart Fisher, or even know what he looks
> >like?
>
> Who the hell IS Hart Fisher? I don't think I've ever heard of him.
I believe he wrote Razor, at least when the book was starting.
An independents writer.
Jeff Coleman
"Billy Bissette" <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:41l47.95941$Pf4.9...@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
If my memory serves me correctly, he had or has a company called Boneyard
Press, that used to comics with a "we're going to be very offensive"
theme--Jeffrey Dahmer Meets O.J. Simpson, and stuff like that.
He interviewed Rob Leifeld a while back in the Comics Journal, and I
actually found it quite interesting!
Jeff
Jim Caldwell
pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk wrote on 7/14/01 8:03 PM:
> In article <5sp1lto5eohtet3v7...@4ax.com>, Alan David
> Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes
>>
>> Well, really, who would notice Hart Fisher, or even know what he looks
>> like?
>
> Who the hell IS Hart Fisher? I don't think I've ever heard of him.
Isn't he dead? ;)
[exits, diving for cover]
--
Jim Caldwell
"The Death of Sad Sack? This better not be another fake-out!" -- Nelson
Muntz
Doug Tonks
>in article TyuchXBv...@esoterica.demon.co.uk, Paul O'Brien at
>pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk wrote on 7/14/01 8:03 PM:
>
>> In article <5sp1lto5eohtet3v7...@4ax.com>, Alan David
>> Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes
>>>
>>> Well, really, who would notice Hart Fisher, or even know what he looks
>>> like?
>>
>> Who the hell IS Hart Fisher? I don't think I've ever heard of him.
>
>Isn't he dead? ;)
I've been holding myself back from posting that all day. Thanks, Jim, for
taking the pressure off.
--Doug Tonks
_____
Teaching AIDS--a book for parents and teachers
AIDS Prevention Education
http://www.mtsu.edu/~hytonks/aidsbook.html
Scott B. Barrie
<jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> wrote:
>"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
>news:B775E3BC.44AAB%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
>> Joe Ankenbauer at anken...@home.com wrote:
>>
>> > wearing a shirt saying "Marvel Can Suck My C***."
>>
>> He wasn't the only one wearing that shirt that year; someone had a booth
>> with them in protest of the Heroes World fiasco.
>
>If I recall correctly, wasn't Hart Fisher behind that shirt? I'd to get one
>:)
You would _what_ to get one? Suck c***?
:) :) :) :) <- Smilies. I know it's just a typo on Jeff's part.
Scott B. Barrie - Hey You!
Read Lethargic Lad online
http://www.lethargiclad.com