History Channel: "Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked"
Kevin Chang
usenet for the past 10 years or so and the one copy of Overstreet I bought
back in 1988.
Random comments:
1. Given the pervasive theme of the influence of U.S. culture (especially
wartime) on comic books and vice-versa, I was surprised that Kanigher didn't
get more mention than the few anonymous pages of Sgt. Rock that were shown.
2. Nice to see they had the bit on Steranko's art.
3. Also nice that they did the bit on the Green Lantern/Green Arrow series.
4. Frank Miller came off as kind of a knee-jerk doofus.
5. I was surprised that they gave so much attention to Sandman to the
absence of other Vertigo or "mature" titles. Yes, they tried to pass off
Morpheus as a "superhero"...but where was Swamp Thing?
5a. It seems unfair, also, to focus on Sandman if they were going to ignore
other "hugely" popular fantasy comics, particularly indies like Cerebus or
Elfquest.
6. I liked the way Superman and Batman were given the plurality of
attention, while still delivering a good amount of air time to Wonder Woman,
the Fantastic Four, Spiderman, Hulk, and the X-Men, among many others.
7. The 9/11 segment was a bit too long and self-congratulatory.
8. Interesting that they never actually used the term "Silver Age"; they did
focus briefly on the Barry Allen Flash as the first new/revived superhero of
the late 1950s, though.
8a. I think a brief mention of Iron Man might have been appropriate here, as
he seemed to conflate Cold War issues and the greater sci-fi focus of the
Silver Age. Granted, Tony Stark got some mention later in the 70's segment
(for his alcoholism).
9. A number of good industry anecdotes were mentioned, though none of the
real dirt. I liked Denny O'Neil's deli story ("Hey! This is the guy who
killed Robin!"). Stan Lee seemed a bit self-aggrandizing, but that wasn't
the hugest surprise.
9a. Kirby seriously got the shaft in the whole production. Bill Finger and
most of the artist/co-creators did too, actually. Ditko was the only one who
got a decent mention (for Spider-Man).
10. There was a fairly long segment on the original Human Torch vs. Namor
"crossover". I thought that the Justice Society of America deserved mention
as the first superhero team book.
11. Plevitz seemed to show a good balance of story and business sense. Then
again, he also looked like an insurance salesman from the 1970's. _This_ is
the guy who wrote my favorite Legion stories?!
12. Denny O'Neil's confession that his revamp of Wonder Woman was a huge
mistake was probably the best moment. He speaks with such honest contrition
that you don't blame him for his decisions, you just want to buy him a beer
and talk about comics...like how great the Englehart run on Batman was.
K.
Franklin Harris
"Kevin Chang" <kevin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:v_TJa.172636$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> 3. Also nice that they did the bit on the Green Lantern/Green Arrow
series.
Even though said series is overrated, overly earnest, melodramatic crap.
> 4. Frank Miller came off as kind of a knee-jerk doofus.
I don't have any idea what you're talking about.
> 5. I was surprised that they gave so much attention to Sandman to the
> absence of other Vertigo or "mature" titles. Yes, they tried to pass off
> Morpheus as a "superhero"...but where was Swamp Thing?
>
> 5a. It seems unfair, also, to focus on Sandman if they were going to
ignore
> other "hugely" popular fantasy comics, particularly indies like Cerebus or
> Elfquest.
It's impossible to do a history of superheroes without reference to other
comics, and the glossing over of non-superhero books leads to some parts of
the documentary simply not making sense. No one uttered the name "EC Comics"
even once, which makes it impossible to really understand the Comics Code
debate. The Code didn't kill off superhero titles, after all. Apart from
DC's big three, superheroes were already on the way out by the time the Code
was enacted. Also, you cannot understand the rise of the direct market
without reference to the many non-superhero publishers that started up in
the '80s.
> 7. The 9/11 segment was a bit too long and self-congratulatory.
Yes. It was.
> 9a. Kirby seriously got the shaft in the whole production. Bill Finger and
> most of the artist/co-creators did too, actually. Ditko was the only one
who
> got a decent mention (for Spider-Man).
Kirby got more mention than Ditko did, but it was still like he was a
nobody.
> 10. There was a fairly long segment on the original Human Torch vs. Namor
> "crossover". I thought that the Justice Society of America deserved
mention
> as the first superhero team book.
The documentary actually makes it seem that the JLA was the first superhero
team.
> 12. Denny O'Neil's confession that his revamp of Wonder Woman was a huge
> mistake was probably the best moment. He speaks with such honest
contrition
> that you don't blame him for his decisions, you just want to buy him a
beer
> and talk about comics...like how great the Englehart run on Batman was.
The Wonder Woman change makes more sense if explained in the context of
trying to make her into another Emma Peel.
--
Franklin Harris
Pulp Culture Online, www.pulpculture.net
"The truly psychotic don't need to cop an attitude." -- Poppy Z. Brite,
alt.horror, 2/21/03
Brian Hance
I just got done watching this ("TiVo: You don't need friends").
Generally pretty good. A bit thin in some areas. I though EC should
have SOME kind of a mention in relation to the whole SEDUCTION OF THE
INNOCENT thing. They did at least show a few covers.
>Random comments:
Random responses:
>4. Frank Miller came off as kind of a knee-jerk doofus.
From everything I've seen about Miller personally, he is a bit of a
knee-jerk doofus. Done some great comics though. I was happy they
mentioned his Daredevil run, which is my favorite of all his work.
>5. I was surprised that they gave so much attention to Sandman to the
>absence of other Vertigo or "mature" titles. Yes, they tried to pass off
>Morpheus as a "superhero"...but where was Swamp Thing?
Sandman had the biggest impact on the mainstream. The vast majority
of people have no idea who Swampy probably is, and those that DO know
of him probably remember the movie with Adrienne Barbeau primarily.
>5a. It seems unfair, also, to focus on Sandman if they were going to ignore
>other "hugely" popular fantasy comics, particularly indies like Cerebus or
>Elfquest.
I don't think either of these books managed to break out of the comics
ghetto like Sandman did. And if they mentioned Cerebus, they might be
compelled to mention the Dave Sim is fucking crazy.
>9. A number of good industry anecdotes were mentioned, though none of the
>real dirt. I liked Denny O'Neil's deli story ("Hey! This is the guy who
>killed Robin!"). Stan Lee seemed a bit self-aggrandizing, but that wasn't
>the hugest surprise.
Actually, I think Stan was LESS self aggrandizing than I'd expect. He
spoke especially well of Ditko.
>9a. Kirby seriously got the shaft in the whole production. Bill Finger and
>most of the artist/co-creators did too, actually. Ditko was the only one who
>got a decent mention (for Spider-Man).
Kirby did get the shaft.
--
Brian Hance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I feel compelled to have the reader conjure Ralph Reed soiling his
panties. Perhaps it's an irrational distrust of organized religion
or the fact that he never returns my phone calls."
Janeane Garofalo from "Feel This Book"
George Grattan
>
> 1. Given the pervasive theme of the influence of U.S. culture (especially
> wartime) on comic books and vice-versa, I was surprised that Kanigher didn't
> get more mention than the few anonymous pages of Sgt. Rock that were shown.
Which raises one of the small things that bugged me about the show overall:
too often too much disconnect between the voice-over and what was being
shown. I'd have liked to have seen *everything* shown identified, too, as to
year, artist, company, title, too, though I know that would have made for a
very muddy screen at times.
>
> 7. The 9/11 segment was a bit too long and self-congratulatory.
Agreed. The show really ground to a halt here, for me. As with most other
things 9-11, I think it's *far* too soon to be able to put the event and
responses to it in a meaningful context. The structure they chose caused
them to parallel it to the influence of WW II on the Golden Age comics-- and
that's just not a defensible parallel at this point in history.
>
> 8a. I think a brief mention of Iron Man might have been appropriate here, as
> he seemed to conflate Cold War issues and the greater sci-fi focus of the
> Silver Age. Granted, Tony Stark got some mention later in the 70's segment
> (for his alcoholism).
Although the Iron Man alcoholism story was actually folded in to the segment
on how Watchmen and TDNK caused an explosion of new realism in superhero
stories-- despite the fact that it predated them by several years. (Another
reason I wanted labeling-- and a good example of why the producers probably
didn't. :-) )
>
> 9. A number of good industry anecdotes were mentioned, though none of the
> real dirt. I liked Denny O'Neil's deli story ("Hey! This is the guy who
> killed Robin!"). Stan Lee seemed a bit self-aggrandizing, but that wasn't
> the hugest surprise.
No, indeed. Heck, Stan was downright subdued here in terms of the the claims
he made compared to some of his other interviews in recent years.
The odd thing about the O'Neil/Robin story bit is when he says "I thought I
was just writing fiction" and yet failed to connect that to part of the
reason why people were upset with the 1-900 number, since it was a wholly
cynical abrogation of the writer's role *as* writer. :-)
>
> 9a. Kirby seriously got the shaft in the whole production. Bill Finger and
> most of the artist/co-creators did too, actually. Ditko was the only one who
> got a decent mention (for Spider-Man).
Indeed. Far, far more of Kirby was needed. But so many seminal artists were
left out-- and writers, too. It's only a two hour show, after all. :-)
>
> 10. There was a fairly long segment on the original Human Torch vs. Namor
> "crossover". I thought that the Justice Society of America deserved mention
> as the first superhero team book.
*That* bugged the heck out of me. Talk about missing a truly significant
historical point. Bad, very bad.
>
> 11. Plevitz seemed to show a good balance of story and business sense. Then
> again, he also looked like an insurance salesman from the 1970's. _This_ is
> the guy who wrote my favorite Legion stories?!
Had the same reaction, myself, never having seen him before. Kinda makes me
admire his work even more, in a Wallace Stevens kinda vein. :-)
>
Overall, I thought it was a solid production, one that works better for
those with less knowledge going in, without essentially misleading or
misrepresenting anything to them. It's probably the best piece on TV about
(mainstream) comics I can remember seeing-- granted, the competition for
that isn't stiff, but this was still basically good work.
--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam
George Grattan
(This post is intended for a Usenet newsgroup only. Its appearance in any
other forum that does not clearly identify it as originally posted to Usenet
is therefore a misrepresentation, is done against my wishes, and may
indicate other unauthorized distortions of content and/or context. Correctly
attributed and/or unedited copies of this post in other forums do not
necessarily indicate my willing participation in them.)
Dale Hicks
kevin...@nyc.rr.com says...
> Pretty much everything I know about comic book history is from reading
> usenet for the past 10 years or so and the one copy of Overstreet I bought
> back in 1988.
It seemed that you pretty much knew everything that happened to be in the
show just from being a general comics geek. I think I learned more about
recent comics history than any other period. Although I didn't know
Marston had two wives, with one being a former student who always wore
armbands.
> 2. Nice to see they had the bit on Steranko's art.
Biggest bit of self-promotion I've seen. Kirbyesque art with spiral
backgrounds for 20 issues, and the guy gets himself tossed in with the
greats of the field.
> 5. I was surprised that they gave so much attention to Sandman to the
> absence of other Vertigo or "mature" titles. Yes, they tried to pass off
> Morpheus as a "superhero"...but where was Swamp Thing?
Moore was already getting talked up in the Watchmen bit, and Sandman was a
more structured story with grander themes.
> 8a. I think a brief mention of Iron Man might have been appropriate here, as
> he seemed to conflate Cold War issues and the greater sci-fi focus of the
> Silver Age. Granted, Tony Stark got some mention later in the 70's segment
> (for his alcoholism).
Stan Lee was there talking about them ignoring Vietnam, while Iron Man
clearly didn't, even if the country wasn't named in the book.
> 11. Plevitz seemed to show a good balance of story and business sense. Then
> again, he also looked like an insurance salesman from the 1970's. _This_ is
> the guy who wrote my favorite Legion stories?!
Heh. I was amazed at how young he looked. He looked to be around 40, but
that can't be right, as he was writing in the 70's.
> 12. Denny O'Neil's confession that his revamp of Wonder Woman was a huge
> mistake was probably the best moment. He speaks with such honest contrition
> that you don't blame him for his decisions, you just want to buy him a beer
> and talk about comics...like how great the Englehart run on Batman was.
Or even give him the props for the GL/GA stuff. I wasn't playing close
attention, but it seemed they were talking up Adams more than O'Neil for
this groundbreaking work.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net
Mikel Midnight
<gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > 7. The 9/11 segment was a bit too long and self-congratulatory.
>
> Agreed. The show really ground to a halt here, for me. As with most other
> things 9-11, I think it's *far* too soon to be able to put the event and
> responses to it in a meaningful context. The structure they chose caused
> them to parallel it to the influence of WW II on the Golden Age comics-- and
> that's just not a defensible parallel at this point in history.
It's generated ... what? A couple of benefot anthologies and a
self-indulgent issue of Spider-Man?
> > 8a. I think a brief mention of Iron Man might have been appropriate here, as
> > he seemed to conflate Cold War issues and the greater sci-fi focus of the
> > Silver Age. Granted, Tony Stark got some mention later in the 70's segment
> > (for his alcoholism).
>
> Although the Iron Man alcoholism story was actually folded in to the segment
> on how Watchmen and TDNK caused an explosion of new realism in superhero
> stories-- despite the fact that it predated them by several years.
A European tv series "Comics: The Ninth Art" pulled this sort of stunt
all the time; at least it wasn't superhero based.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel Midnight
(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
blak...@blaklion.best.vwh.net
_______________________________________http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/comics.html
Dale Hicks
says...
>
> It seemed that you pretty much knew everything that happened to be in the
> show just from being a general comics geek. I think I learned more about
> recent comics history than any other period. Although I didn't know
> Marston had two wives, with one being a former student who always wore
> armbands.
Also, there was something about Miller cribbing the Elektra story from
someone -- I couldn't make out the name.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:MPG.1962acc28...@news.cis.dfn.de:
> In article <v_TJa.172636$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> kevin...@nyc.rr.com says...
>> Pretty much everything I know about comic book history is from
>> reading usenet for the past 10 years or so and the one copy of
>> Overstreet I bought back in 1988.
> It seemed that you pretty much knew everything that happened to
> be in the show just from being a general comics geek. I think I
> learned more about recent comics history than any other period.
> Although I didn't know Marston had two wives, with one being a
> former student who always wore armbands.
I knew about the arrangement-- though not that one of them always
wore bracelets.
>...
>> 5. I was surprised that they gave so much attention to Sandman
>> to the absence of other Vertigo or "mature" titles. Yes, they
>> tried to pass off Morpheus as a "superhero"...but where was
>> Swamp Thing?
> Moore was already getting talked up in the Watchmen bit, and
> Sandman was a more structured story with grander themes.
Sandman also got more notice outside the comics field. And while it
wasn't a superhero comic, it did derive from the two superheroic
Sandmen, while Swamp Thing came out of the horror tradition. (Though
Moore certainly brought DC's supers into the story.)
>...
>> 11. Plevitz seemed to show a good balance of story and business
>> sense. Then again, he also looked like an insurance salesman
>> from the 1970's. _This_ is the guy who wrote my favorite Legion
>> stories?!
> Heh. I was amazed at how young he looked. He looked to be
> around 40, but that can't be right, as he was writing in the
> 70's.
>...
He's not much older-- 45 or 46, I think. He didn't get started quite
as early as Shooter, but IIRC he was writing comics before he was out
of high school and doing editorial work around when he started
college.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Neil4161
someone -- I couldn't make out the name.
>>
Will Eisner and the Spirit's old girl friend from the past, Sand Serif.
Neil
Richard
"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:MPG.1962acc28...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> > 8a. I think a brief mention of Iron Man might have been appropriate here, as
> > he seemed to conflate Cold War issues and the greater sci-fi focus of the
> > Silver Age. Granted, Tony Stark got some mention later in the 70's segment
> > (for his alcoholism).
>
> Stan Lee was there talking about them ignoring Vietnam, while Iron Man
> clearly didn't, even if the country wasn't named in the book.
>
He was talking about them avoiding Vietnam in the LATE '60's,
when the USA was actually involved in major combat. The show
made a point of mentioning how things had changed from the early '60's,
when Lee and company had their heroes fighting "commies"
on a regular basis. It was in that earlier context that
Vietnam popped up in the first Iron Man story in Tales
of Suspense #39, Mar. 1963 (Vietnam was in fact mentioned
by name on pages 2 and 3 of that story). At that time, the USA
only had a couple thousand "advisors" in Vietnam, as compared
to the several hundred thousand troops who would be there by 1968,
whose bloody fighting could be witnessed daily by everyone
watching the evening news.
Captain America and Thor also had stories set in Vietnam (again
mentioned by name, I checked), but those appeared in 1964-65,
before the war became hugely controversial.
Richard
George Grattan
> In article <v_TJa.172636$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> kevin...@nyc.rr.com says...
>> Pretty much everything I know about comic book history is from reading
>> usenet for the past 10 years or so and the one copy of Overstreet I bought
>> back in 1988.
>
> It seemed that you pretty much knew everything that happened to be in the
> show just from being a general comics geek. I think I learned more about
> recent comics history than any other period. Although I didn't know
> Marston had two wives, with one being a former student who always wore
> armbands.
Oh, yeah-- was that *creepy*, or what?
>
>
>
> Stan Lee was there talking about them ignoring Vietnam, while Iron Man
> clearly didn't, even if the country wasn't named in the book.
Good point.
>
>> 11. Plevitz seemed to show a good balance of story and business sense. Then
>> again, he also looked like an insurance salesman from the 1970's. _This_ is
>> the guy who wrote my favorite Legion stories?!
>
> Heh. I was amazed at how young he looked. He looked to be around 40, but
> that can't be right, as he was writing in the 70's.
Levitz was a *young* writer in the 70s, I think. (Not Shooter-young, but
still....). Nevertheless, he did look younger than I had expected.
George Grattan
From Will Eisner, I thought-- a SPIRIT character-- Sin Serif, or something?
Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"
From a Will Eisner "Spirit" storyline. Miller acknowledged stealing it and
Eisner recalled joking with Miller about it.
Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"
>In article <v_TJa.172636$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
>kevin...@nyc.rr.com says...
>> 11. Plevitz seemed to show a good balance of story and business sense. Then
>> again, he also looked like an insurance salesman from the 1970's. _This_ is
>> the guy who wrote my favorite Legion stories?!
>
>Heh. I was amazed at how young he looked. He looked to be around 40, but
>that can't be right, as he was writing in the 70's.
Levitz was born in the late 1950s, since he was in his late teens/early 20s
when writing for DC in the 70s. That would make him mid-50s now.
Yarn Spinner
>when writing for DC in the 70s. That would make him mid-50s now.
No offense intended, but better check your math
.
Jesse McCann, freelance writer guy
*What I'm writing now:
SIMPSONS EPISOIDE GUIDE SEASONS 13-14 (Harper)
*Visit my AOL freebie cheezy web page to see past accomplishments:
http://hometown.aol.com/jleon2001/myhomepage/index.html
Mikel Midnight
<neil...@aol.com> wrote:
Hmm, that surprises me. Not because I don't see the similarities, but
because I thought the 'return of the hero's childhood girlfriend who
has grown into a villainous femme fatale' was a much older and more
generic storyline than that. Oh well, if you're going to steal, steal
from the best.
Tom Galloway
To be precise, Paul was born on October 21, 1956, making him 46 at the moment.
tyg t...@panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Michael Pastor
"Tom Galloway" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bdd9o7$qe6$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Wow..is that all? Nice age to be and be the head honcho of a large company.
He was in his 20s when he was writing Legion? Damn, time to get busy.
michael j pastor
Dale Hicks
blak...@best.outdamnspam.com says...
> In article <20030624213733...@mb-m13.aol.com>, Neil4161
> <neil...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > << Also, there was something about Miller cribbing the Elektra story from
> > someone -- I couldn't make out the name.
> > >>
> >
> > Will Eisner and the Spirit's old girl friend from the past, Sand Serif.
>
> Hmm, that surprises me. Not because I don't see the similarities, but
> because I thought the 'return of the hero's childhood girlfriend who
> has grown into a villainous femme fatale' was a much older and more
> generic storyline than that. Oh well, if you're going to steal, steal
> from the best.
Has that story been Archived yet?
Doing some research, I see that the next volume to be released (#11) is
the one where everyone told me that Eisner stepped it up a notch, entering
his greatness.
starblood
KurtBusiek
moment.>
>> Wow..is that all? Nice age to be and be the head honcho of a large company.
He was in his 20s when he was writing Legion? Damn, time to get busy.>>
I recall a lettercol in ADVENTURE COMICS that explained that Paul had to step
back from writing the Aquaman feature, because he was going off to college...
kdb
Check out a FREE 8-page ARROWSMITH story at:
http://www.wildstorm.com/arrowsmith/arrowsmith.html
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Do they ever release these sorts of things on video? I don't have cable.
You can already buy the DVD. Go to aetv.com and look for the Store.
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Reviews of Trinity, BOP, Outsiders, Alias, Sentinel,
X-Men, Deathmask, Freemind, Metallix, Heroes Con Report
Tom Galloway
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>> To be precise, Paul was born on October 21, 1956, making him 46 at the
>He was in his 20s when he was writing Legion? Damn, time to get busy.>>
>I recall a lettercol in ADVENTURE COMICS that explained that Paul had to step
>back from writing the Aquaman feature, because he was going off to college...
To toss out the obigatory Tom Lehrer quote for this sort of occasion;
"When Mozart was my age, he'd been dead for two years."
tyg t...@Panix.com
Franklin Harris
"starblood" <moonh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FhrKa.2445$Ry3.1...@monger.newsread.com...
> Do they ever release these sorts of things on video? I don't have cable.
You can order a VHS or DVD-R copy from the History Channel. Try the History
Channel web site. There's an online store there somewhere.
My own view, however, is that it isn't worth it. Here is my contemporaneous
review, which I published on my web log:
Received History
I'm watching the History Channel's much-hyped special Comic Book Superheroes
Unmasked, and while it is respectful of comics in the sense that no one has
said, "Bam! Pow!" it is nevertheless a shallow presentation that perpetuates
the usual myths.
1. It overstates the influence of Dr. Frederick Wertham, omitting the fact
that the congressional hearings at which Wertham testified eventually found
that comics did not turn children into raving, violent perverts.
2. It ignores the use of the Comics Code as a tool of the major publishers
to eliminate EC Comics as a viable competitor.
3. It focuses too much on DC and Marvel in general.
We're just at the halfway point, but so far I'm not impressed.
UPDATE: The second half was even more gag inducing, as it attempted to prove
the relevance of comics by presenting a laundry list of causes comics have
addressed since the late 1960s: racism, sexuality, gun control, that evil
President Reagan, etc. The second hour reduced the cultural impact of comics
to the level of an afterschool special, with hardly any mention of artistic
merit (except for the works of Steranko and Alan Moore).
Then there was the superficial discussion of the speculation bubble, with no
mention of Marvel's Heroes World debacle, and of the rise of the bookstore
market, with no reference to manga.
Ray Elliot
In answer to your question about the Sand Serif story.
The answer is NO and it will be a while as it appeared
on Jan. 8. 1950. Ray
KurtBusiek
>back from writing the Aquaman feature, because he was going off to college...
>> To toss out the obigatory Tom Lehrer quote for this sort of occasion;
>> "When Mozart was my age, he'd been dead for two years.">>
There was another quote from back then that I wish I could easily dig up, but,
well, I have no idea where it appeared. It was in a text column -- an
editorial feature or lettercol or something -- in a paragraph profiling Paul,
and it quoted him as saying something to the effect that working in comics was
a ton of fun and a great way to make money for college, but he couldn't see
making a career of it.
Glad Paul changed his mind...
KurtBusiek
> > someone -- I couldn't make out the name.
> > >>
> >
> > Will Eisner and the Spirit's old girl friend from the past, Sand Serif.
>
> Hmm, that surprises me. Not because I don't see the similarities, but
> because I thought the 'return of the hero's childhood girlfriend who
> has grown into a villainous femme fatale' was a much older and more
> generic storyline than that. Oh well, if you're going to steal, steal
> from the best.>
It's not a matter of where such a trope first appeared, but of where Frank got
it. He's enough of a hardboiled crime fan that I'm sure he'd seen it before,
but when he created Elektra, he was consciously inspired by the Spirit and
Sand.
>> Has that story been Archived yet? >>
It's "Sand Saref," and while it hasn't been Archived, you can find the story in
THE SPIRIT CASEBOOK (from Kitchen Sink), and in Eclipse's WILL EISNER'S JOHN
LAW (since the two-part Sand Saref story was originally a story for a John Law
comic that didn't get published, and it was turned into a Spirit story via some
editing and redrawing).
Michael Pastor
"Franklin Harris" <fran...@pulpculture.net> wrote in message
news:vfkmn3n...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> Then there was the superficial discussion of the speculation bubble, with
no
> mention of Marvel's Heroes World debacle, and of the rise of the bookstore
> market, with no reference to manga.
Well, that's because manga aren't comics. ;-P hehehehehehe
michael j pastor
(just couldn't resist)
Michael Pastor
"KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:20030625223243...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> >I recall a lettercol in ADVENTURE COMICS that explained that Paul had to
step
> >back from writing the Aquaman feature, because he was going off to
college...
>
> >> To toss out the obigatory Tom Lehrer quote for this sort of occasion;
> >> "When Mozart was my age, he'd been dead for two years.">>
>
> There was another quote from back then that I wish I could easily dig up,
but,
> well, I have no idea where it appeared. It was in a text column -- an
> editorial feature or lettercol or something -- in a paragraph profiling
Paul,
> and it quoted him as saying something to the effect that working in comics
was
> a ton of fun and a great way to make money for college, but he couldn't
see
> making a career of it.
>
> Glad Paul changed his mind...
>
Maybe I can use that quote to convince my best friend that he needs to give
up the security of health care and a 401k working for Verizon so that he can
draw comics - he is incredible, but won't even consider it. Makes me wanna
cry...
michael j pastor
Richard
"Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bddmqe$r02a6$1...@ID-174457.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Franklin Harris" <fran...@pulpculture.net> wrote in message
> news:vfkmn3n...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >
> > Then there was the superficial discussion of the speculation bubble, with
> no
> > mention of Marvel's Heroes World debacle, and of the rise of the bookstore
> > market, with no reference to manga.
>
> Well, that's because manga aren't comics. ;-P hehehehehehe
They certainly aren't SUPERHERO comics, which was the subject
of the program. With regards to the program's "superficial
discussions", they covered 65 years of superhero history in
two hours. How could anyone have expected anything other
than a superficial treatment in a program intended for a general
audience and not the tiny minority who are knowledgeable
comic book fans?
Richard
Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"
>>Levitz was born in the late 1950s, since he was in his late teens/early 20s
>>when writing for DC in the 70s. That would make him mid-50s now.
>
>No offense intended, but better check your math
Geez, can't do simple math in public. Maybe that's why I'm an engineer, we're
accustomed to using calculators and computers to double check our numbers.
philip mateer
KurtBusiek wrote:
>It's "Sand Saref," and while it hasn't been Archived, you can find the story in
>THE SPIRIT CASEBOOK (from Kitchen Sink), and in Eclipse's WILL EISNER'S JOHN
>LAW (since the two-part Sand Saref story was originally a story for a John Law
>comic that didn't get published, and it was turned into a Spirit story via some
>editing and redrawing).
>
>kdb
>
>Check out a FREE 8-page ARROWSMITH story at:
>http://www.wildstorm.com/arrowsmith/arrowsmith.html
>
>
It's in one of the Warren Spirits,too, isn't it? (Those were my
first introduction to The Spirit, and I can still remember my
astonishment -- the only other creator who can pack that much into those
few story pages has to be Carl Barks.)
And I can't resist pointing out that, as usual, Eisner has a pun in
the character name: "sans serif" is, of course, the printers' term for
fonts without the little "bottoms" on each letter....
Phil Mateer
KurtBusiek
I think so, but those are a long time gone...
>> And I can't resist pointing out that, as usual, Eisner has a pun in the
character name: "sans serif" is, of course, the printers' term for
fonts without the little "bottoms" on each letter...>>
Yep.
Franklin Harris
"Richard" <ric...@nospam.edu> wrote in message
news:t6vKa.73129$Dr3.59291@fed1read02...
First, the documentary mentioned non-superhero comics several times,
especially when talking about the collapse of the superhero genre following
WWII. So, a brief mention of the fact that manga dominates the bookstore
market should not have been out of the question.
Second, there would have been plenty of time in the second hour to delve
into more complex issue if the documentary had not spent most of that hour
driving home the same point -- that comics, starting in the late '60s,
starting addressing political and social issues. Got that. Check. Move along
now.
Kevin J. Maroney
>
>Biggest bit of self-promotion I've seen. Kirbyesque art with spiral
>backgrounds for 20 issues, and the guy gets himself tossed in with the
>greats of the field.
Sorry for the long delay on this response:
Jim Steranko's [impact on field/# of stories drawn] ratio has got to
be the highest in the history of American comics. (Well, except for
maybe Bernie Kriegstein, but my impression is that Kriegstein actually
did a lot of pages, most of which are forgotten today.)
Steranko was tremendously influential at the time, both for his
gimmicks (the op art spiral backgrounds) and also for his
revolutionary approaches to layouts. His rendering was good--some of
the best of the Silver Age--but it was his approach to storytelling
that captivated artists like Neal Adams and P. Craig Russell. From the
four-page splash panel to the dozens-of-panels, his layouts and
compositions took everything Kirby and Ditko had been working towards
and yanked them violently into the future.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com Š 2003 by Kevin J. Maroney
"Love doesn't have a point. Love *is* the point."--Alan Moore
If you are reading this message on the "Comics-N-Such" message boards,
know that it has been copied onto that forum without my permission.
Steven Rowe
<k...@panix.com> writes:
>Steranko was tremendously influential at the time, both for his
>gimmicks (the op art spiral backgrounds) and also for his
>revolutionary approaches to layouts.
better change that to revolutionary approaches for american comics.
those layouts came straight from the Italian work of Guido Creepax
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