Speaking of Letterhacks...
Patman
Comics #692. Way to go, Jacob!
--
Patman -- gt3...@prism.gatech.edu
"That's it! From now on, no more BLONDES or THREE-EYED babes with BLUE SKIN."
Stryker...Cyberforce #4
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Ricky Poole
Does anyone know if the Todd McFarlene whose letter is in
Superman #366 is the Image McFarlene? This book was published
in 1981.
Rick
--
Rick Poole | Convex Computer Corp. | Now, was that
po...@convex.com | 3000 Waterview Parkway | rEEEEEaly
(214) 497-4728 | Richardson, Texas 75080 | necessary?
"I've tried relaxing, but I don't know, I feel more comfortable tense."
Patman
in the "Oh So?" column? Andrew S. Troth (ast). His letter dealt with
Image's hypocrisy of firing the 2nd wave of Image creators (Grell, Stroman,
Johnson, Barta, Giffen, etc.).
Patman
to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
ComicFest in October.
The Toddler wants to clear up some misunderstandings that PAD's been writing
in regards to Image in his BID column that appears in CBG.
Don Thompson, co-editor of CBG, has agreed to mediate the show!
The Toddler proposes a 3-person board that would decide who "won" the debate.
So whoever goes to the ComicFest, please get in line early and record
the fireworks and report back to us!
Thanks!
s
Tom Galloway
>
> Does anyone know if the Todd McFarlene whose letter is in
> Superman #366 is the Image McFarlene? This book was published in 1981.
Well, assuming that the last name was spelled the same as the Image one
(I believe it's McFarlane; same clan as Galloway btw) and the address
is from Calgary, likely so.
"Under Canadian Law, adult comicbook readers, having committed the sin of not
judging a medium by the products within it meant for children or teenagers,
must ring a bell as they walk, crying out 'Unclean! Unclean!' and that puts
off most people. That and the little squid they make us wear on all our
clothes warns real adults not to talk to us." --James Nicoll
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Tom Galloway
> In this week's CBG #1036, the Toddler issues a challenge to PAD. He wants
> to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
> ComicFest in October.
And according to Peter on GEnie, he's accepted and it's scheduled for
Friday afternoon. Peter wasn't planning to attend until this came up.
> Don Thompson, co-editor of CBG, has agreed to mediate the show!
Well, there goes my plan to toss my name into the ring...
> The Toddler proposes a 3-person board that would decide who "won" the
> debate.
Aha! There's still a possibility. Personally, I wonder if Harlan Ellison
will be around Friday afternoon to serve as a judge.
Peter, have you considered entering the room in a silk robe and boxing
gloves to a tape of the theme from Rocky?
"Left hook, jab. Right cross, combination. Uppercut."
"Mister, where I come from, them's fightin' words." --Cowboy Wally's Rough-up
Theater
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Patman
>In article <111...@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt3...@prism.gatech.EDU (Patman) writes:
>> In this week's CBG #1036, the Toddler issues a challenge to PAD. He wants
>> to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
>> ComicFest in October.
>And according to Peter on GEnie, he's accepted and it's scheduled for
>Friday afternoon. Peter wasn't planning to attend until this came up.
>> Don Thompson, co-editor of CBG, has agreed to mediate the show!
>Well, there goes my plan to toss my name into the ring...
>> The Toddler proposes a 3-person board that would decide who "won" the
>> debate.
>Aha! There's still a possibility. Personally, I wonder if Harlan Ellison
>will be around Friday afternoon to serve as a judge.
>Peter, have you considered entering the room in a silk robe and boxing
>gloves to a tape of the theme from Rocky?
tyg, PLEASE, PLEASE record this "debate" and post the whole thing or at
least higlights from this "what promises to be a huge spectacle" debate.
Craig Welsh
>to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
>ComicFest in October.
>
>The Toddler wants to clear up some misunderstandings that PAD's been writing
>in regards to Image in his BID column that appears in CBG.
>
>Don Thompson, co-editor of CBG, has agreed to mediate the show!
>
>The Toddler proposes a 3-person board that would decide who "won" the debate.
Time to place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Who will the battle
between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
Anybody want to take me up on it?
Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
when you need him......
_craig
L J Constantine
>Time to place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Who will the battle
>between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
>I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
>Anybody want to take me up on it?
>Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
>when you need him......
How 'bout "Clash of the Titian and that guy who makes all that money
drawing pictures"?
LJC, who is in a funky mood.
--
ta...@hydra.unm.edu * "We danced in graveyards with vampires till dawn
Lady Johanna Constantine * we laughed in the faces of kings never afraid
or just plain Tara * to burn..."
I live on Usenet. Really. * --Tori Amos, "Little Earthquakes"
Mickey
>to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
>ComicFest in October.
Hey! I plan on going to this show! Unfortunately, I have yet to see PAD's
name on any of the guest lists. This would certainly make the entire
trip worthwhile for me if he did go. I could even report back.
(Btw, the only time I've encountered PAD in my travels was during a comicon
in Philadelphia back in '89 or '90, I forget which... however, i was such a
fan of the Hulk at the time that all I really had to say to him was "Gee,
Mr. David, the Hulk is really cool." Duh.)
Mick
--
Mickey McCarter, unemployed actor |mic...@chopin.udel.edu __
"Law? This is the only law: the law |mic...@pecan.cns.udel.edu / |
of averages." - Harvey Dent, Batman: TAS |Weep not for Camelot... /__|_
Existential Disclaimer: Believe what you like, nothing matters |
Cerebus the Aardvark
> In this week's CBG #1036, the Toddler issues a challenge to PAD. He wants
> to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
> ComicFest in October.
>
> The Toddler wants to clear up some misunderstandings that PAD's been writing
> in regards to Image in his BID column that appears in CBG.
>
> Don Thompson, co-editor of CBG, has agreed to mediate the show!
>
> The Toddler proposes a 3-person board that would decide who "won" the debate.
>
> So whoever goes to the ComicFest, please get in line early and record
> the fireworks and report back to us!
>
> Thanks!
*sigh*
Why do so many of my fave creators have to have pointless and counterproductive
feuds between one another?
Is it because they don't get out enough and need to blow off steam SOMEHOW????
--- Geoff Wessel, Cerebus the NetAardvark, WILL be looking for the transcripts
of this tho...
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
I'd like to get copies of any interviews that anyone has that Todd McFarlane
gave. I've already got the Comics Journal one, and the recent HERO
transcript of a Chicago panel. Others would be handy, though.
There's no more effective debating tactic than your opponent's own words.
Anyone who has such things handy, copies can be sent to:
To Be Continued, Inc.
PO Box 239
Bayport, New York 11705
Thanks in advance to any who can help out.
PAD
R.J.Jo...@newcastle.ac.uk
Great! PADs gonna whip his arse!
I have a few pointers I think PAD could have a go with (like he needs
my help... right!)
How much "Respect" does Todd McFarlane have for Mike Grell?
How come Keith and Keown can stay while Giffen, Gordon, Grell, Moore
etc have to leave? Some facts haven't quite been ironed out here.
Oh and while we are waiting for the results of the Liefeld Swipe
competition, tommorrow I will reveal... the uncredited PAD swipe
in the Incredible Hulk.... watch out for it.....
..................................
RICH JOHNSTON-Creator of Dirtbag
"Woo!" - James Ottaviani, recent Cerebus.
"Cool" - eight year old fanboy
James Nicoll + Jasmine
>
>>Time to place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Who will the battle
>>between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
>>I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
>>Anybody want to take me up on it?
>
>>Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
>>when you need him......
How about 'mano-a-nano'?
James Nicoll
--
If mail bounces, try jdni...@engrg.uwo.ca
"I'm not deaf. The world is muffled."
- THE SAINT -
to go to the fest if the timing aligns.
Please e-mail me at: lawr...@ctron.com
Thanks.
Christopher Smith
>
>Why do so many of my fave creators have to have pointless and counterproductive
>feuds between one another?
>
>
>Is it because they don't get out enough and need to blow off steam SOMEHOW????
I get the impression that McF genuinely believes he still has to explain
himself, and PAD just enjoys being contrary and argumentative (in a good
spirit of fun).
--
Bert really loves to float,
And he dreams that he's on a boat.
He thinks it's a sailing craft,
But it's only his trusty raft! -- Anthem of Bath Bert
Christopher Smith
>How come Keith and Keown can stay while Giffen, Gordon, Grell, Moore
>etc have to leave? Some facts haven't quite been ironed out here.
*-----------
I think I missed something. I noticed that Shaman's Tears disappeared
from the Image listing, but what's all this about people being booted
out of Imunch, I mean Image?
Patman
>>cwe...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Craig Welsh ) writes:
>>>Time to place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Who will the battle
>>>between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
>>>I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
>>>Anybody want to take me up on it?
>>>Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
>>>when you need him......
> How about 'mano-a-nano'?
Or better yet, how about "Lego my Ego!" :)
David A. Tumarkin
> >In this week's CBG #1036, the Toddler issues a challenge to PAD. He wants
> >to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
> >ComicFest in October.
> >
> Time to place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Who will the battle
> between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
> I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
> Anybody want to take me up on it?
>
> Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
> when you need him......
IMAGE vs SUBSTANCE: Todd McFarlane debates Peter David on the subject of
comics, the Marvel Universe, and everything.
Place your bets, gents!
- Sasha
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Though the fruits of crime bear bitter seaweed, the sea cucumbers of
crime make a killer salad."
- Dr. Calamari in the DC/Marvel
Crossover with Suicide Squid
and Archangler in THE DEVIL,
THE ANGEL, AND THE DEEP BLUE
SEA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Galloway
> I think I missed something. I noticed that Shaman's Tears disappeared
> from the Image listing, but what's all this about people being booted
> out of Imunch, I mean Image?
Basically Image has booted all titles not conceived by either the original
seven or Dale Keown. Some of the creators are going to work on other titles
(such as Keith Giffen), some are self publishing such as Stroman, and
some are looking for other publishers for their projects. The panel
where the original seven announced this was rather full of hypocracy.
"I am the *Tick*. Your brother has not done justice to your beauty with his
words. You are the spitting image of Thelma from Scooby Doo."
"Uh..." --Tick
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Robert A. Jung
>>In this week's CBG #1036, the Toddler issues a challenge to PAD. He wants
>>to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
>>ComicFest in October.
>
>between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
Peter A. David, the man with the razor-sharp word processor, who's given us
the best X-FACTOR run ever, SOULSEARCHERS AND COMPANY ("Oh, what a knotty boy
I am"), the delectable Q-IN-LAW, and countless other blends of humor and
drama and whatnot.
versus
Todd McFarlane, the hot flashy artist best known for a barely-comprehensible
comic called SPIDER-MAN, and whose most famous trait today is the size of his
inflated self-image.
I predict Peter will slaughter Todd, using concrete evidence a la Ross Perot
("And here we see Todd's page 16 vs. Byrne's cover, side by side..."), and
throwing out enough one-liners along the way that Todd will be left either
(a) slack-jawed or (b) indignant that no one is believing his story.
--R.J.
B-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Send mail to rj...@netcom.com Any time, any place, any game -- Lynx Up!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Babs: "I'd be terrific! Colossal! Stupendous! Mediocre even!"
Aide: "You are applying for the position of President of the United States?"
--Buster's Guide to Part-Time Jobs, TINY TOON ADVENTURES
Mickey
>Since this is now being publicized, I could use some help in one respect.
>I'd like to get copies of any interviews that anyone has that Todd McFarlane
>gave. I've already got the Comics Journal one, and the recent HERO
>transcript of a Chicago panel. Others would be handy, though.
Excellent. My question, however, concerns which day of Comicfest this will
be occuring on. I presume Saturday, October 9 which is the one day I was
planning on going anyway.
Having had years of journalism experience, I would be more than happy to
play news reporter on behalf of racm. :)
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
for that weekend that had long precluded going to the show in the first
place, which is why I hadn't been planning to go. Friday was the one day
I could do it.
PAD
Thomas Galloway
>Since this is now being publicized, I could use some help in one respect.
>I'd like to get copies of any interviews that anyone has that Todd McFarlane
>gave. I've already got the Comics Journal one, and the recent HERO
>transcript of a Chicago panel. Others would be handy, though.
The new Amazing Heroes #1 and 2 seem to have a McFarlane interview. #2 does,
and it appears to be continued from #1.
Hmm, if you went "I hold in my hand evidence of four known McFarlane
interviews..." I wonder how many people would get the non-comics reference?
"Question One: Are you now, or have you ever been, a Communist?" --Yale
Precision Marching Band '81 Salute to Communism show after Joe McCarthy
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Sean Russell
>cwe...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Craig Welsh ) writes:
>
>
>>Time to place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Who will the battle
>>between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
>>I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
>>Anybody want to take me up on it?
>
>>Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
>>when you need him......
>
>How 'bout "Clash of the Titian and that guy who makes all that money
>drawing pictures?
I kind of like this:
THE MIND VERSUS THE BEHIND
(PAD^) (^McMuffin)
What do you think, sirs?
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: I predict Peter will slaughter Todd, using concrete evidence a la Ross Perot
: ("And here we see Todd's page 16 vs. Byrne's cover, side by side...")
The Toddster is one swipe perpetrator who *does* give credit
for the cover poses he swipes. Can't really attack him
there.
The 501ster is a whole different ballgame.
Scott
PS, Hero magazine, *after* Philly:
"Todd Who?" -- Jim Lee
"McFarthing? Who's that?" -- Whilce Portacio
"Isn't he someone who draws an adult comic?" -- Marc Silvestri
"Never heard of him." -- Jim Valentino
"Should I know him?" -- Erik Larsen
"My buddy Todd *won* that debate!" -- Rob Liefeld
Robert A. Jung
>Robert A. Jung (rj...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>I predict Peter will slaughter Todd, using concrete evidence a la Ross Perot
>>("And here we see Todd's page 16 vs. Byrne's cover, side by side...")
>
>The Toddster is one swipe perpetrator who *does* give credit
>for the cover poses he swipes. Can't really attack him
>there.
>
>The 501ster is a whole different ballgame.
Ah, my error. I always get McFarlane and Liefield confused -- I mean, the
two are practically the same person in my book: "Hyper-egotistical flashy
artists with no talent at Image". The fact that they draw almost identically
doesn't help, either.
Boxing Elmo
> between PAD and McEgo. Not that I really think it is going to be close.
> I'll bet my entire run of the Peter David/ Todd McFarlane Hulk on PAD.
I'm not going to be that hasty, actually. While I'm certain Peter is the
more logical thinker and the better at public speaking, it sounds like
Todd gets to write the rules:
[Patman writes:]
>>The Toddler wants to clear up some misunderstandings that PAD's been writing
>>in regards to Image in his BID column that appears in CBG.
If Todd gets to define the debate in his terms, he has a major advantage.
--
"You said social *climber*, not *spelunker*."
--Dave Hyatt
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnal.fnal.gov)
vv4...@albnyvms.bitnet
You know, it's too bad that John Byrne won't be there. (or will he?) He would
probably be a great backup for factual info (after all, McLiefeld does often
swipe from him, right?) I do hope that someone is posting some sort of
transcript of this event.
P.S. I think that "Image vs. substance" banner would be perfect for this event.
Richard Allbery
>gt3...@prism.gatech.EDU (Patman) writes:
>> In this week's CBG #1036, the Toddler issues a challenge to PAD. He wants
>> to have a mano-a-mano panel debate with PAD at this year's Philadelphia
>> ComicFest in October.
>
>Why do so many of my fave creators have to have pointless and counterproductive
>feuds between one another?
>
>Is it because they don't get out enough and need to blow off steam SOMEHOW????
I do like McFarlane's art, but I think he'd do himself a big favor if he could
learn how to keep his mouth shut. He's barely coherent, let alone capable of
debating PAD. I don't understand why just because he can draw he thinks he is
God's gift to comicdom.
Of course, challenging PAD to a debate is similar to voluntarily flaming Jim
Cowling. A rather spectacular way to commit suicide. I don't see how anyone
could fault PAD--if Todd wants to publically hang himself, the least any
considerate person can do is provide the rope.
/------------ Eagle ------------\ . . . it [Life] is a tale
| All...@GVG47.gvg.tek.com | told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
| Soon to be @stanford | Signifying nothing.
| I am not affiliated with GVG. | -- William Shakespeare
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: If Todd gets to define the debate in his terms, he has a major advantage.
Well, in fact he *does* need all the help he can get -- maybe
that'll be his handicap so he can debate Peter David?
Scott
Ex-Image quotes regarding Todd in Wizard following debate:
"Got what was coming to him!" -- Mike Grell
"Sucker got JUICED" -- Stroman
"I am not a girl" -- Hillary Barta
"Turnabout is fair play" -- Jerry Ordway
"What goes around comes around" -- Al Gordon
"Todd sure is cool!" -- Dale Keown
Pete c/o Tom Yates
that there's a comic book in Japan called "Rape Man". Supposedly it
was about a superhero who, uh, rapes. That was his power. Somebody may
have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
say that it definitely doesn't exist?
Just wondering...
-->Pete
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maranci Malden, Massachusetts
pe...@slough.mit.edu or ru...@trystero.com or ru...@ace.com
"If you don't want to kiss Duke Munchkin's ass, you can pretty much kiss
your own goodbye." -- Traditional NERO saying (spurious). 8^>}
Carl Fink
P> I heard about this a while ago, and I have to ask: I've heard
>that there's a comic book in Japan called "Rape Man". Supposedly it
>was about a superhero who, uh, rapes. That was his power. Somebody may
>have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
P> I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
>Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
>say that it definitely doesn't exist?
I haven't seen any actual issues, physically, because it'd be very
illegal to buy some of them in this state. I've seen photostats of
pieces of issues. Rape-Man is a manga character whose costume has no
pants, who basically attacks and rapes women. He isn't in any
meaningful sense a "superhero". Not all comics deal with superheroes.
Yes, they're that different.
--
"What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the wasteful, blundering,
low and horribly cruel works of nature!" --Charles Darwin
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com CARL.FINK (GEnie)
Cerebus the Aardvark
>
> I heard about this a while ago, and I have to ask: I've heard
> that there's a comic book in Japan called "Rape Man". Supposedly it
> was about a superhero who, uh, rapes. That was his power. Somebody may
> have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
>
> I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
> Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
> say that it definitely doesn't exist?
I know I'm running the risk of Net.Death here, but.....
I own 4 volumes of RAPEMAN manga (3,4,5 and 10). They're not that great, but
nor (thankfully!) are they as brutal as they COULD be.
Basically, the strip is about a guy who's a rapist-for-hire (No, I am NOT
kidding...). He wears a black mask, no pants most of the time, and does his
job.
Now, a few disclaimers:
1) No, I do NOT support rape of any kind. I bought 'em just to have 'em,
basically.
2) The reason I got them in the first place was because I like a band from
Chicago by the same name, featuring Steve Albini, ex-Big Black.
3) I do NOT support rape. (Just wanted to double-check that one...)
Hope this answers your question.
--- Geoff Wessel, Cerebus the NetAardvark, running the gauntlet over RAPEMAN
_AGAIN_...
do...@yang.earlham.edu
vv4...@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>P.S. I think that "Image vs. substance" banner would be perfect for this event.
I second this--as the one who first came up with that joke, I'd
say it has a sense of tradition behind it if nothing else.
--Doug
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
was suggestion: David vs. Goliath (apparently oblivious of how that face
off turned out for Goliath) and such nonsense. I said that if this was
supposed to be a debate, then it should have a question to be addressed.
What I came up with was: Image Comics--have they received a fair shake
from the media? I take the affirmative, Todd presumably the negative.
PAD
Sean Russell
>Ex-Image quotes regarding Todd in Wizard following debate:
>
>"Got what was coming to him!" -- Mike Grell
>"Sucker got JUICED" -- Stroman
>"I am not a girl" -- Hillary Barta
>"Turnabout is fair play" -- Jerry Ordway
>"What goes around comes around" -- Al Gordon
>"Todd sure is cool!" -- Dale Keown
More like "Todd *snort* sure is cool!" -- Dale Keown
Christopher Smith
(hint, hint)
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: What I came up with was:
: Image Comics--have they received a fair shake
: from the media? I take the affirmative, Todd presumably the negative.
Is *that* the best you can do!? (Is this Peter David, or a
replacement?)
How about:
A few loudmouths make Image look bad: why don't the other 5
give them the boot?
The trouble with Image is there's no Editor in Chief to tell these
people to find their own soapboxes from which to mouth off. And
it makes even the self respectable Image people guilty by
association.
The media really has nothing to *do* with it -- they write
down what McShitforbrains and 501 say, and the magazines
sell for their entertainment value. The media doesn't have to
*do* anything. If anything, they've been pretty fair. More
fair than a presidential election: they are restraining
themselves and it still looks awful.
Here's another one:
Who appointed you spokespawn? Or: how to represent your
company. (Jim Shooter can join in this one :))
*sigh*
Scott
--
Press releases we all want to see:
"Five to two-- you're fired!"
-- Lee, Silvestri, Portacio, Larsen, Valentino.
"Homage leaves Image and forms its own imprint, Images sales plummet"
-- CBG after the debate
"Pitt 2099 to be released by Image"
-- not a futuristic series, that's when #3 will
come out!!!
Michael A. Chary
Actually, I -- despite my original semi-religious decision not
to do so-- bought an Image title this spring other than spawn.
It was Trencher. I liked it. My objection to I mage is not
the style over substance. I think most comics try to balance
style and sustance a little. I know that I have dropped books
because the art was so bad that it was taking away from my pleasure.
McFarlane isn't Peter David but his writing has improved, I'd
say that he is at the low end of average at the moment ranking
just below Kim Yale (about even, IMHO) and a little more below
Dan Jurgens. I objected to Image because they were giving lots of
money to someone -- you all know who -- who could not do anything
well or even competently and that ticked me off.
I wonder if Liefield will ever learn to draw?
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."-Roger Bacon
"To die for an idea is to set a rather high price on conjecture."-
Anatole France
Eugene Kushnirsky
>>Btw, don't we need some kind of flashy name for this? Where's Don King
>>when you need him......
>
>How 'bout "Clash of the Titian and that guy who makes all that money
>drawing pictures"? ^^^^^^
Isn't that redundant?
>LJC, who is in a funky mood.
EK, who is in an artsy mood.
(By the way, isn't anyone going to root for McFarlane? So far, all of the posts
have been rabidly pro-PAD and anti-McF. It's getting boring. What good is a
debate if the result is a foregone conclusion?)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| "This fall, DC's Vertigo Line, for young adults, releases..._The Extremist_ |
| (featuring a heroine who appeals to female readers)...." -- USA Weekend. |
| |
| Makes it sound like Nancy Drew. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bert L. Reinke
I usually give this guy SOME credit, since he is the ONLY founding member
of Image seemingly capable of producing decent work. But to challenge PAD
to a panel? That's like having Aunt May go toe-to-toe vs. Galactus! What a
fool! What a moron! What an ego!
Kick his arse in, PAD! I hope video cameras will be allowed in- we could make
MILLIONS off of this! (PAD gets 45% of all profits, yes?) I wish I could be
there.... Maybe my friends who own a store will see it.
Louis Bright-Raven
Richard Allbery
> Ah, my error. I always get McFarlane and Liefield confused -- I mean, the
>two are practically the same person in my book: "Hyper-egotistical flashy
>artists with no talent at Image". The fact that they draw almost identically
>doesn't help, either.
Despite the fact that I disagree about the similarity of their drawing, this
does have a certain flair.
"Announcing the latest comic by Rodd McLiefeld--SPAWNBLOOD!!"
-Eagle 8-)
Craig Welsh
>>
>>"Got what was coming to him!" -- Mike Grell
>>"Sucker got JUICED" -- Stroman
>>"I am not a girl" -- Hillary Barta
>>"Turnabout is fair play" -- Jerry Ordway
>>"What goes around comes around" -- Al Gordon
>>"Todd sure is cool!" -- Dale Keown
> More like "Todd *snort* sure is cool!" -- Dale Keown
I just like to say that this is one of the nastier cheap shots I have
seen on this newsgroup in a long while.
Congratulations, Sean! ;)
_craig
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
that negative a slant would be just a *touch* unfair.
Furthermore, with all respect to all those who seem to predict this will be
a slaughter, I perceive no such thing. One aspect you're forgetting is:
By everyone presuming I'm going to clobber him, that puts the advantage
over to Todd. Think about it. All he has to do is hold his own, even
barely, and people will come away saying, "Yeah, Peter David was right on
the mark and everything, but Todd managed to keep up with him." That
alone would lend weight to his position. On the other hand if, in order to
avoid that, I go in and completely destroy him, I can be perceived as
being a bully by pressing my "obvious advantage."
This is not as easy as you think, guys.
PAD
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: One aspect you're forgetting is:
: By everyone presuming I'm going to clobber him, that puts the advantage
: over to Todd. Think about it.
Certainly people are underestimating Mr. McFarlane. In fact, he could
just show up and get more credit than people here (myself included)
have been giving him. And -- Todd *is* the founding father of Image and
would know more about what is really going on with it than anymore, so
should have plenty of ammunition. Certianly no one else knows what
Image is doing...
Scott
--
CBG quotes we'll never see:
"I wasn't going to do a project for Image -- I don't know *how*
these rumors get started" -- Frank Miller & Whoever after being
canned from their book before it was even *started*.
- THE SAINT -
>(By the way, isn't anyone going to root for McFarlane? So far, all of the posts
>have been rabidly pro-PAD and anti-McF. It's getting boring. What good is a
>debate if the result is a foregone conclusion?)
You forget that Fraud McLiefield *initiated* the demand for this debate!
That knucklehead is so full of himself and believes his own hype, so he
actually thinks he stands a snowball's chance of out maneuvering PAD.
Personally, I want to see PAD crucify the little loudmouth. I hope PAD's
in a particularly vicious mood on the 8th.
I'd be glad to hook up with him and offer some pointers.
PAD ...?
The Saint.
Lance D. Hill
Not to put a damper on anyone's enthusiasm for this event, but
let's get realistic for a moment. The debate's audience is sure to be
populated with Peter David fans, but I'm afraid the vast majority will
be pre-teen to teenagers who would cheer if McFarlane picked his nose
in public and flung it at them (as long as the next item he throws
into the crowd has the possibility of being a signed Spawn #1). The
college aged, "rational thinking" population that we represent will be
sorely outnumbered. Hence, I'm fearful that the debate may end up like
the recent Chavez-Whittaker fight in San Antonio. Whittaker (David)
throws and lands more punches, but Chavez (McFarlane) was undefeated
going in, is the crowd favorite, and has Don King behind him. Thus
resulting in a criminal draw so no one loses and there can be a very
over-blown, money-making rematch. If a "draw" is declared in this
debate and another one is planned for the next big convention to bring
in the crowds it will certainly be a travestry.
Also, keep in mind that McFarlane is no idiot. He did not
become the moner-maker he is thanks to his stupidity (he likes hockey so he
can't be all that bad). Having the quotes from past interviews he has
done that contradict himself can be dismissed to context and
interpretation. I don't imagine McFarlane ever "preparing" for an
interview and thinking about what he is going to say to certain
questions if they were posed to him. Most of his interviews are
probably ad lib and anyone can make mistakes trying to state a
consistent ideology in numerous "off the cuff" interviews over a
period of a couple of years.
I am in no means defending McFarlane views, only trying to bring
everyone on the net back down to earth over the debates probable
outcome. If it is a "run-away" win for David, I will be very
surprised.
Debate Predictions:
-McFarlane will try and get the audience's support quickly by
pandering to them (free comics or something).
-McFarlane, in times of defense, will comment on PAD's weight
if no other options present themselves.
-PAD will come fully armed with an arsenal of "Bloody-eyed
Mick" jokes should McFarlane become unruly.
-McFarlane will dismiss his own interviews that contradict
himself (even those taped verbatim) as taken out of context or
misinterpreted.
-McFarlane will paint PAD as a Marvel corporate lackey who has
sold his soul to the devil and is trying to rationalize his way to
salvation.
-PAD will criticize Image's hypocrisy regarding "the best
comic for the consumer" and all the gimmick covers they do to jack up
the price.
-McFarlane will counter that he has never done gimmick covers
and quickly dump all his Image peers who have.
-Leifeld will be on hand in a skirt with pom-poms to cheer
Todd on to victory (fans will realize that Rob is indeed a
cross-dresser).
Final Tally:
Judge One: 115-113 PAD
Judge Two: 114-114
Judge Three: 114-114
Result: A majority draw and a rematch to be annouced in the near future.
Basically, everone loses but the convention organizers who
have a whole new medium with which to exploit.
Best Case Scenario: PAD makes McFarlane realize that Image's whole
existence is a lie and McFarlane announces his immediate resignation
from Image and the creation of his own comics line with PAD writing
his first new comic!
Bryn Groves
In a previous article, 00gdw...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Cerebus the Aardvark) says:
>In article <26tlk0$m...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, pe...@slough.mit.edu (Pete c/o Tom Yates) writes:
>>
>> I heard about this a while ago, and I have to ask: I've heard
>> that there's a comic book in Japan called "Rape Man". Supposedly it
>> was about a superhero who, uh, rapes. That was his power. Somebody may
>> have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
>>
>> I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
>> Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
>> say that it definitely doesn't exist?
>
>I know I'm running the risk of Net.Death here, but.....
>
>
>I own 4 volumes of RAPEMAN manga (3,4,5 and 10). They're not that great, but
>nor (thankfully!) are they as brutal as they COULD be.
>
>
>Basically, the strip is about a guy who's a rapist-for-hire (No, I am NOT
>kidding...). He wears a black mask, no pants most of the time, and does his
>job.
>
>
What - you mean some guy slips him a few yen and says "I want you to go out
and rape so-and-so"? Is it just me, or does that make no sense?
nyrB
--
There's a Method to the Madness of Mike
>Best Case Scenario: PAD makes McFarlane realize that Image's whole
>existence is a lie and McFarlane announces his immediate resignation
>from Image and the creation of his own comics line with PAD writing
>his first new comic!
Now THAT would be good! :)
--Mike
--
"Bought a ticket for a runaway train/ | Mike Escutia/Pliable Lad
Like a madman laughing in the rain/ | m...@kepler.unh.edu
A little out of touch, a little insane/ | or mi...@unh.edu
It's just easier than dealing with the pain" | or m_es...@unhh.unh.edu
--Soul Asylum | or....
Glennis the Menace
>Furthermore, with all respect to all those who seem to predict this will be
>a slaughter, I perceive no such thing. One aspect you're forgetting is:
>By everyone presuming I'm going to clobber him, that puts the advantage
>over to Todd. Think about it. All he has to do is hold his own, even
>barely, and people will come away saying, "Yeah, Peter David was right on
>the mark and everything, but Todd managed to keep up with him." That
>alone would lend weight to his position. On the other hand if, in order to
>avoid that, I go in and completely destroy him, I can be perceived as
>being a bully by pressing my "obvious advantage."
>This is not as easy as you think, guys.
No, but to your advantage are factoids like: Todd never prepares for
anything, he's very impulsive in his speech, and he's on the defensive
here as he wants to "set the record straight." However, experience with
watching debates suggests that the audience rarely pays any attention
to the outcome of a debate, having picked a winner a priori. :( But I
guess that would depend somewhat on the make-up and average age of the
audience.
> l_h...@oz.plymouth.edu (Lance D. Hill) writes:
>Result: A majority draw and a rematch to be annouced in the near future.
> Basically, everone loses but the convention organizers who
>have a whole new medium with which to exploit.
Save for the rematch part, I would imagine this would be the actual
outcome. :) From I've gathered from various interviews and lettercols,
etc., Todd is not impervious to an elder voice of wisdom, it's not
impossible that the debate could affect his behaviour in the future.
And from the standpoint of professional "face", one would assume there
will be pros and industry types in the audience that will hear what's
said.
But, the easy way for Peter to ensure victory is have a model dressed
as J.J. at his side throughout the debate. Assuming Todd doesn't have
Angela with him, of course. >B^)
Pax ex machina,
Glenn
......................................................................
"Some bizaare, machiavellian plot which we may never fully
understand, I'd say."
--- Shulkie
g-car...@uchicago.edu, if you must know
......................................................................
Dan Newcombe
> In a previous article, 00gdw...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Cerebus the Aardvark) sa
> >> that there's a comic book in Japan called "Rape Man". Supposedly it
> >> was about a superhero who, uh, rapes. That was his power. Somebody may
> >> have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
> >>
> >> I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
> >> Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
> >> say that it definitely doesn't exist?
> >
> >I know I'm running the risk of Net.Death here, but.....
> >
> >I own 4 volumes of RAPEMAN manga (3,4,5 and 10). They're not that great, bu
> >
> >Basically, the strip is about a guy who's a rapist-for-hire (No, I am NOT
> >kidding...). He wears a black mask, no pants most of the time, and does his
> >job.
>
> What - you mean some guy slips him a few yen and says "I want you to go out
> and rape so-and-so"? Is it just me, or does that make no sense?
And all this from a society that won't allow pubic hair to be shown.
Gee...
Dave Van Domelen
to the motives of those who hire him (pardon the tabs, my editor is being
a pain right now). I saw a TV newsarticle on Rape Man a few years ago
during some furor over softcore porn in the area...the news show was
trying to show how things are different in Japan, I guess. Anyway, one
point they made was that in the stories, men would be having trouble with
their wives/girlfriends/etc, presumably that the women weren't being
submissive enough. So they'd hire Rape Man to rape their SO, and once he
was done they'd realize how foolish they had been and return to being
submissive little ideal women. Happy Ending.
Dave Van Domelen, ain't cultural tolerance great? Pity it rarely
works in two directions....
Rabid Rat
>pe...@slough.mit.edu (Pete c/o Tom Yates) writes:
>P> I heard about this a while ago, and I have to ask: I've heard
> >that there's a comic book in Japan called "Rape Man". Supposedly it
> >was about a superhero who, uh, rapes. That was his power. Somebody may
> >have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
> >Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
> >say that it definitely doesn't exist?
> I haven't seen any actual issues, physically, because it'd be very
>illegal to buy some of them in this state. I've seen photostats of
>pieces of issues. Rape-Man is a manga character whose costume has no
>pants, who basically attacks and rapes women. He isn't in any
>meaningful sense a "superhero". Not all comics deal with superheroes.
> Yes, they're that different.
>
My SO is Japanese, I am Italian. Our cultures ARE different, definitely.
Still, I'm surprised how much the current PC brainwashing can affect
people reasoning. Why? So much surprise for a "pro-rape" manga (obviously
hyperbolical = satyrical) and no contempt for manga or comix portraing
vigilantes (Punisher?) killers for hire (Golgo 13, Crying Freeman),
psychopaths serial killers (Faust?)... Which, by the way (well, most
of them at least) take themselves incredibly seriously. I'm more scared
by a kid who is lead to think that going around shooting people is cool
rather than by an adult who reads an obvioulsy absurd manga which
undoubtly portrays terrific acts (Rapeman... what about the Extremist?)
Wake up people... They are COMICS
PAolo
--
( )( )________
/00 the rat! \ _ Born to be rat!
O_\\--mm---mm /_______)
Mary Healey
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Rabid Rat) writes:
>[stuff deleted] Why? So much surprise for a "pro-rape" manga
>(obviously hyperbolical = satyrical) ...
Obviously satyrical, yes. Obviously satirical, no.
M.
Tom Johnston
Eugene Kushnirsky writes:
>>(By the way, isn't anyone going to root for McFarlane? So far, the posts
>>have been rabidly pro-PAD and anti-McF. It's getting boring. What good is a
>>debate if the result is a foregone conclusion?)
lawr...@ctron.com (- THE SAINT -) writes:
>You forget that Fraud McLiefield *initiated* the demand for this debate!
I wonder why. Does he have some angle that he thinks PAD won't
anticipate going into the debate? Does he really feel that he &
Image have done no wrong, and believe that if he just tells the
truth about whatever topic comes up, he will be vindicated? It
should be interesting to see how the debate goes.
>That knucklehead is so full of himself and believes his own hype, so he
>actually thinks he stands a snowball's chance of out maneuvering PAD.
Maybe, maybe not.
>Personally, I want to see PAD crucify the little loudmouth. I hope PAD's
>in a particularly vicious mood on the 8th.
So much anger on this group directed towards the Image guys.
I like Spawn, and I liked the PAD/McF Hulk issues. I hope
Todd does OK at the debate. It makes me uncomfortable that
people in this group have such seething hatred for the Image
creators. The guys have acted like asses, but the disdain for
them shown here really seems overblown given that most of the
people posting here don't know them except for seeing them make
an occasional convention visit.
Christopher Smith
Maybe I'm missing something.. well, actually, I *am* missing something,
because I've let my CBG subscription lapse and I've not been reading
BID.
But I'd like to know why everyone thinks PAD really has an interest in
"crucifying" McF, as everyone implies or explicitly states?
I don't think it will be a matter of PAD "burying" McF. I think that
McF will whine (deliberate biased remark) about his "side", PAD will
present the rebukes and rebuttals that really only make sense, and
everyone will come away from the thing entertained, but unlikely to
have changed their mind in any respect.
Loaf and quiches
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: It makes me uncomfortable that
: people in this group have such seething hatred for the Image
: creators.
It's sad that ALL Image creators are equated as being the same as Todd
McMouthoff, when in fact it's 7 very different people just sharing a
logo. Of course, it's also something the other 5 bring on themselves by
not distancing themselves from the ones that are making them look bad.
Fire McMouthoff and 501 and bring Grell and Giffen on as full-blown
partners. Too bad 501 owns the Image logo. I think Homage Studios
should form their own imprint. If anything the rather negative
publicity surrounding the two principle mouths is taking away from
them.
(PAD, write this one down, it'll take McMouthoff off the offensive...)
What really blows my mind about Todd McMouthoff is that he said in Hero
#1 that he left Marvel because he couldn't *stand* the creative
atmosphere, and would be happy selling 30,000 copies of a book that was
HIS that he did himself without interference. A couple of issues later,
he's blowing off Grell, Giffen, Gordon, Ordway, Johnson, et al because
their books are not "commercial" enough, and saying Image books must
sell 150,000 copies not to be cancelled. If Todd *really* had left
Marvel for creative problems, why is he suddenly using their system in
his company? Forcing creators to either be commercial or to leave?
To me, I just can't handle anyone that can flip-flop that fast.
Now what will happen is the debate will be ***IMAGE*** vs David, or
Image vs Marvel, in all the trade rags, and the individuals, speaking
for themselves, will be lost in the logo shuffle. I hope this doesn't
happen, but I can see it being done that way. If it is billed as
McMouth vs David, that's cool.
All those of you who are assuming PAD will win should read the Dewey
Defeats Truman headline one more time :)
Either:
IMAGE VINDICATED In Debate
Or:
Peter David Trounces Image
Just wait...
Scott
Curt Tsui - PCA I
> I own 4 volumes of RAPEMAN manga (3,4,5 and 10). They're not that great, but
> nor (thankfully!) are they as brutal as they COULD be.
>
> Chicago by the same name, featuring Steve Albini, ex-Big Black.
this is why i've been looking for these comics as well!!
unfortunately, to no avail....
--
"You got me...in a 'vendetta' kind of mood...."
Curt Tsui
cu...@Virginia.EDU
Pete c/o Tom Yates
> Our cultures ARE different, definitely.
> Still, I'm surprised how much the current PC brainwashing can affect
> people reasoning. Why? So much surprise for a "pro-rape" manga
> (obviously hyperbolical = satyrical)
If you're saying I'm brainwashed...I'll disagree with you.
Actually, I have to admit that for some sick reason I find the idea of
Rapeman incredibly funny -- the same way that I find, well, a lot of
things funny (don't feel like offending a lot of people and getting
into a flame situation here). No, I don't like rape -- but it is, after
all, a comic book. I don't bat frogs around until they explode, but I
still find Beavis and Butt-head as funny as hell.
On the other hand, I've never seen the comic, and I have no
way of knowing how satirical it is.
> and no contempt for manga or comix portraing
> vigilantes (Punisher?) killers for hire (Golgo 13, Crying Freeman),
> psychopaths serial killers (Faust?)
I don't read those books -- never heard of 'em. But the
point is moot, since I haven't made a judgement about Rapeman.
Rape isn't funny in the real world. I've seen the reality too
closely to feel otherwise. But death isn't funny in the real world,
either -- and I thought the scene in RoboCop when ED-209 blew that
exec into a pile of steaming hamburger was incredibly funny.
In other words: Yeah, I know it's a comic book.
And I can't think of anything at all that *couldn't* be
funny in some way -- in fiction, instead of for real.
-->Pete
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maranci Malden, Massachusetts
pe...@slough.mit.edu or ru...@trystero.com or ru...@ace.com
Anyone out there read Grimjack, Badger, Sam & Max -- Freelance Police, or Omac?
Dani Zweig
>1. who or what is 501???
>2. Who or what is PAD???
A. Imagine that all the continents in the world were one enormous
continent, that all the water in the world were one great sea
surrounding that continent, that all the people in the world
were one enormous giant, that all the trees in the world were
one great tree on the shore of the continent, and that all
the axes in the world were one giant axe.
B. Imagine that the giant took the axe and chopped down the tree
so that it fell away from the shore and into the sea.
C. Just think what a splash it would make!
Does this answer your questions?
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
The surface of the strange, forbidden planet was roughly textured and green,
much like cottage cheese gets way after the date on the lid says it is all
right to buy it.--Scott Jones
Eric L Herz
2. Who or what is PAD???
thanks,
Erik Herz
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Good, Bad, I'm the one with the gun."
-Ash, 'Army of Darkness'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: 1. who or what is 501???
A brand of blue jeans. Or someone who goes on TV and says he created
X-Force wearing those jeans while Spike Lee films him.
: 2. Who or what is PAD???
A pad is what you append to the end of a file to make the checksums
come out even. Or someone who puts Todd McFarlane in check.
Scott
Cerebus the Aardvark
Well, no, but this IS comics... :)
Actually, it's not ALWAYS for hire, but Rapeman is pretty much a for-hire
rapist.
(Keep in mind, I can't read Japanese.....YET.)
--- Geoff Wessel, Cerebus the NetAardvark, is NOT going to do a full analysis
of this, OK???
Jerone Mitchell
To answer your questions in a halfway decent and informative
manner:
1) 501 is Rob Liefeld, character creator extrodinaire, but
writer terribleaire (That last comment was IMHO, for the
2 or 3 Liefeldians out there). He "created" X-Force, and
is the founding force behind Extreme Studios, a "division"
of Image comics. People tend to view his art in extremes,
(pun intended), either believing it's spectacular or it sucks.
IMO, he's damn good. However, honestly, the guy couldn't
write a check (but I'm sure he thinks that's what editors are for).
2) PAD is none other than Peter Allen David, writer of stuff.
He's currently the writer on "The Incredible Hulk",
"Spiderman 2099", "Sachs and Violens", and "SoulSearchers
& Co.". With the exception of "SoulSearchers", I can personally
attest that all of his comics are expertly written, and I
recommend them. He will also be the writer of the upcoming "Aquaman: Time
and Tide" for D.C., as well as a couple of issues of Justice
League Task Force. PAD has had ...problems with certain of the
creators at Image, particularly (or specifically) Todd McFarlane
and 501.
I hope that answers your questions in a way you can understand...
-da JAM
P.S. I'd really love it if someone could post a transcript of
the PAD-McFarlane debates on the net. PLEASE!!!!!@
joev dubach
Tom Johnston (tpjg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: It makes me uncomfortable that
: people in this group have such seething hatred for the Image
: creators.
It's sad that ALL Image creators are equated as being the same as Todd
McMouthoff, when in fact it's 7 very different people just sharing a
logo.
It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
nicknames for the Image creators. Calling people "McEgo",
"Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
dissatisfaction with their behavior. Frankly, I'm glad more
professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
Joev
"How would you feel if someone did that to your mother? Or
your sister?" - roughly, from _Thelma and Louise_
Patman
>In article <272prc$j...@balsam.unca.edu> mcm...@clyde.cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner) writes:
> Tom Johnston (tpjg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
> : It makes me uncomfortable that
> : people in this group have such seething hatred for the Image
> : creators.
> It's sad that ALL Image creators are equated as being the same as Todd
> McMouthoff, when in fact it's 7 very different people just sharing a
> logo.
>It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
>need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
>nicknames for the Image creators. Calling people "McEgo",
>"Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
>dissatisfaction with their behavior. Frankly, I'm glad more
>professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
>of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
Here's the truth: Image is not a comic publishing company in the normal
sense of the term. They are IMO a *vanity press*. The Image banner under
which these 7 creators have decided to "publish" their comics
makes it hard for this company to be considered a true comics publisher
since it can't publish their books in
a timely manner. They lack the professionalism required to be called a
comic book publisher. Thus they shouldn't be treated as a bona fide
publishing company. They are hacks when it comes to publishing comics.
(Marvel is approaching this plateau soon.). Their unprofessionalism
has been the bane of many retailer's existence this past year. This
inspires absolutely no retailer or consumer confidence in the Image products.
So this brings me to the Image nicknames that I and many other on the net
have branded onto the Image creators. It's the lack of professionalism
that has inspired the nicknames, not a hatred of the creators themselves.
You say the nicknames show a lack of respect for the creators. You're
right! I don't respect these guys because they don't respect us the
consumer, nor the retailers who work hard in trying to anticipate demand
for comics and can't do this for Image products since the overwhelming
majority of the comics solicited never show up with 2 months of when they
are supposed to, much less on time. Look at DC Comics, they are usually
on time with the multitude of comics they produce and solicit. This is
professionalism that I respect and admire. I show my support by buying
many DC comics that I enjoy and since they are shipped on time, my enjoyment
is not deterred by lateness, something I can't say about Image.
Will the nicknames go away? I won't call them by their nicknames when they
can produce 6 months' worth of Image comics that are shipped on time! And
since I highly doubt this possibility, I'll continue to use nicknames when
I'm talking about the Image creators. =)
Does this make me childish? Fine, but I expect professionalism from the
comic publishers that want my $$$, and if some of them can't get their
act together, then they don't deserve my $$$ and will only get my scorn for
them instead.
--
Patman -- gt3...@prism.gatech.edu
"That's it! From now on, no more BLONDES or THREE-EYED babes with BLUE SKIN."
Stryker...Cyberforce #4
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
: need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
: nicknames for the Image creators.
But it's fun to read, and it certainly isn't limited to this
newsgroup.
: Calling people "McEgo",
: "Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
: dissatisfaction with their behavior.
Yeah, but it's fun to read. The 10,000,000th time you type
"McFarlane", it gets old.
: Frankly, I'm glad more
: professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
: of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
Well, then again, there's the fact respect is generally *earned* -- you
don't see nicknames for Marc Silvestri, Walt Simonson, John Buscema,
PAD, Keith Giffen, and so forth. They're treated with respect.
It depends more on who the creator is and what that creator's
reputation is.
Scott
Gary Lewandowski
>joev dubach (dub...@husc8.harvard.edu) wrote:
>: Calling people "McEgo",
>: "Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
>: dissatisfaction with their behavior.
>Yeah, but it's fun to read. The 10,000,000th time you type
>"McFarlane", it gets old.
Nice paragraph. The first sentence tells us you're immature and the
second tells us you post too much.
>: Frankly, I'm glad more
>: professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
>: of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
>Well, then again, there's the fact respect is generally *earned* -- you
Basic respect isn't earned, it's given from one human to another as
a recognition of personhood. How would you like it if I just called
you McMushbrain as a default, until you posted enough articles
that I like? I'm guessing you wouldn't like it, since I remember you
complaining when I once misspelled your last name.
There is a larger respect that can be earned -- a respect for one's
work, for example. That shouldn't be mistaken for basic respect,
however.
--
Gary Lewandowski ga...@cs.wisc.edu Theory Slug of Doom
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps the only precept taught me by Grandfather Wills that I have
honored all my adult life is that profanity and obscenity entitle people
who don't want unpleasant information to ignore you.
-- Eugene Debs Hartke, in _Hocus Pocus_ by Kurt Vonnegut
bpl...@drew.drew.edu
> 1. who or what is 501???
>
>
>
answers...
501 refers to Rob Liefeld, so-called since he did that Levis 501
commercial lo, these many moons ago.
PAD = the initials of Peter A. David, writer of stuff.
Not that I mind the witty answers - the tree/ splash one went over my
head, though.
Patman
>Basic respect isn't earned, it's given from one human to another as
>a recognition of personhood. How would you like it if I just called
>you McMushbrain as a default, until you posted enough articles
^^^^^^^^^^^
"McMushbrain?"...I like it! (just pulling your leg, Scott =) )
Patman
Thank goodness I wasn't the only one that felt this way when I read Dani's
"witty" answer too. :)
Riemannian Eid
>
> It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
> need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
> nicknames for the Image creators. Calling people "McEgo",
> "Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
> dissatisfaction with their behavior. Frankly, I'm glad more
> professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
> of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
Agreed.
I just have to keep reminding myself that there are a lot of college-age
posters out there.
A lot of this name-calling stems from jealousy, I'd wager.
Heck, I make a good living, but it would be kind of neat to make so much
money doing something so much fun.
Later.
--
Ars Vita Longa Brevis,
Riemannian
Lurking.Girl
>I just have to keep reminding myself that there are a lot of college-age
>posters out there.
And I just have to keep reminding myself that there are a lot of older posters
out there who apparently don't remember their college (or equivalent age) days
too well, since they persist in believing that all people of that age are
necessarily and by definition immature.
Please do not make such blanket assumptions.
Tori
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victoria C. Fike | "Lives of great men all remind us
to...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu | We may make our lives sublime
Lurking Girl of the LNH | And, departing, leave behind us
"If you must be a hero, always re- | Footprints in the sands of time..."
member what the word hero means." | --Hawkwind, "Assault and Battery"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennis the Menace
>In article <73...@eastman.UUCP>, Riemannian Eid <re...@chili.Kodak.COM> wrote:
>
>>I just have to keep reminding myself that there are a lot of college-age
>>posters out there.
>
>And I just have to keep reminding myself that there are a lot of older posters
>out there who apparently don't remember their college (or equivalent age) days
>too well, since they persist in believing that all people of that age are
>necessarily and by definition immature.
>
>Please do not make such blanket assumptions.
But it's so much fun, and the 10,000th time you try to remember it,
it gets really old! :) :) :)
Actually, I'd like to think most people outgrow the name-calling long
before college. 501 is just a nickname, but all these
Mc(fill-in-the-blank) are *really* grating.
Pax ex machina,
......................................................................
"The problem, of a nation, what to do, for pleasure"
--- Gang of Four
Joe Gorde
: It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
: need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
: nicknames for the Image creators. Calling people "McEgo",
: "Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
: dissatisfaction with their behavior. Frankly, I'm glad more
: professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
: of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
Thank you! I heartily second this sentiment.
--
"Is there a better life for me?" *Joe Gorde*
-4 Non Blondes joeg...@css.itd.umich.edu
The Trap: (313) 763-8102
Joe Gorde
: Does this make me childish? Fine, but I expect professionalism from the
: comic publishers that want my $$$, and if some of them can't get their
: act together, then they don't deserve my $$$ and will only get my scorn for
: them instead.
How do expect netters to respect your opinions if you present them in
an admittedly childish and immature fashion?
Tom Gillman
>What - you mean some guy slips him a few yen and says "I want you to go out
>and rape so-and-so"? Is it just me, or does that make no sense?
Are you kidding? That would be one of the best ways possible to totally
degrade and humiliate an enemy.
--
Tom Gillman, Systems Programmer |"I think you crossed that fine line
Wells Computer Center-Ga. State Univ. | between polite lying and outright
(404) 651-4503 sys...@gsusgi2.gsu.edu | sarcasm" -- Dilbert
My opinions, not GSU's... |
Damon B. Crumpler
wow.
i'm rooting for mcfarlane in the sense that i hope he
can keep up with PAD.
to explain myself:
everything i've seen about the guy so far leads me to
believe that he's an eager bright young lad who
cannot always express himself very well.
PAD seems to be very competent in this ability, going by
his posts here, which i assume are quickly executed and
not well planned (ie, he knows how to ad lib)
i have not seen either talk, so these are only impressions.
another impression i get is that todd BELIEVES in what
he and the 7 are doing.
of CORSE there are hypocritical aspects of what they say vs.
what they do, i have not yet met ANYONE in all my yeras of
existance who is not hypocritical in some way.
the fact that todd and PAD have worked together and are familiar
each other (i assume) should make things better all around.
the ideal outcome will be for PAD to eek out information and
attitudes from toddster about the firings, image, etc.
for the world to see.
Also to show toddster what a lot of people think of him, since
i imagine his feedback loop is pretty skewed toward the
positive.
Todd's goal, and the reason (i imagine) for initiating
the debate is defense of himself and his brethren, whom,
as PAD has surmised, have been getting a lot of bad press.
all in all, it should be a fun thing.
--
We dance around the ring and suppose, but The Secret lies in the
center and knows.(Frost) I know things that have been forgot(Sim)
Knowledge is evil.Infinity means everything is true.Maximal chaos
=maximal homogenaeity.(me) 4.66920(Feigenbaum) z=z(2)+c
Patman
>Patman (gt3...@prism.gatech.EDU) wrote:
>: Does this make me childish? Fine, but I expect professionalism from the
>: comic publishers that want my $$$, and if some of them can't get their
>: act together, then they don't deserve my $$$ and will only get my scorn for
>: them instead.
>How do expect netters to respect your opinions if you present them in
>an admittedly childish and immature fashion?
Well, first you might want to brush up on your grammar, but I digress... :)
Domo :) has made the points I wanted to make re: nicknames and epithets.
If you immediately jump to the conclusion, when someone uses the nicknames
"501" or "McEgo", that the person posting the article is immature, then that's
your problem. I use the nicknames now out of brevity's sake, but they do have
their basis in fact: Todd McFarlane has a large mouth and ego, that's been
documented in the many interviews he's done. The "501" nickname has been
discussed til ad nauseum, so I won't reguritate another session of the
Levi's 501 ad that Rob Liefeld did a few years ago.
I still stand by the points of the lack of professionalism displayed by the
Image "creators." If you can't deal with those points and have to brow-beat
the use of their well-deserved nicknames, then that's your problem. I was
making a comment on how Image as a company has made a shambles of the
direct market in their bid for "creative" freedom from the evil entity known
as Marvel Comics. In their eagerness to produce their comics, they have
bit off more than they could have possibly chewed. So instead of doing the
right thing, making their comics returnable if they were more than a month
late, they elect to change the rules to *their* benefit only and come up with
a 90 day period before the books are considered "late" and returnable. How are
retailers supposed to sell books that have less demand since the books are
hopelessly late have a demand level that's dwindling at an exponential rate?
They don't!
They eat those books. That makes it tough for these retailers to order
other books for their customers that would be on time and elicit more
demand for the book, thus giving the retailer and the consumer a better
deal than Image can, up to this point in time.
So if you can find fault with what I said in the above paragraphs, take your
best shot.
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: the ideal outcome will be for PAD to eek out information and
: attitudes from toddster about the firings, image, etc.
: for the world to see.
Hopefully Mr. David will be taking notes on these posts. This would be
idea -- get into topics that the suck-up magazines won't raise. But
ones the fans deserve to know more about than they do now, like why Mr.
McFarlane fired his friend Mike Grell. Or why Image fired Marc
Silvestri's friend Hillary Barta. Or Keown's status. Or even The
Maxx's status -- is it cancelled? These are things that McFarlane
should not mind discussing.
Scott
(Note the respectful terminology! No McFootinmouthdisease or anything! :))
Thingfish
No Rapeman is not a hero. He is a "hitman" he is paid to rape instead of
kill. My Japanese is not advanced enough to go beyond that.
Illegal in your state? In the USA? Illegal to sell or own?
--
I guess I'm just a spudboy... | k...@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
Lookin' for that real tomato. | ken Primer
- DeVo | Galoot Cullognu!!!!
Dare to be stupid! | Yum Yum
Thingfish
>>> have been pulling my leg, but supposedly he used his power on schoolgirls.
>>>
>>> I know our cultures are different, but are they THAT different?
>>> Has anyone heard of this book, seen it, or is anyone in a position to
>>> say that it definitely doesn't exist?
>>
>>I know I'm running the risk of Net.Death here, but.....
>>
>>
>>I own 4 volumes of RAPEMAN manga (3,4,5 and 10). They're not that great, but
>>nor (thankfully!) are they as brutal as they COULD be.
>>
>>
>>Basically, the strip is about a guy who's a rapist-for-hire (No, I am NOT
>>kidding...). He wears a black mask, no pants most of the time, and does his
>>job.
>>
>>
>
>and rape so-and-so"? Is it just me, or does that make no sense?
same as hiring a thug to maim or murder someone.
John Carrico
so I can't comment on anything Mr. McFarlane has said therein. I would
like to say, however, that my every person-to-person experience with Mr.
McFarlane has impressed me with his eagerness, honesty, and genuine
enthusiasm for what he does.
Mr. McFarlane and his brother-in-law, Kim Kolomyjec, own a comic
book shop in my hometown of Puyallup, Washington. McFarlane came and spoke
to the art club at my high school, no charge, no publicity, just a chance
for a bunch of awed teen-agers to speak to a *real live* comic book
artist. Mr. McFarlane spoke for at least an hour on the business,
answering any question, showing drawing tips, just being an all-around
nice guy. This was just after _Spider-Man_ #1 came out. Kim told me that
McFarlane made around two million for that, give or take a couple hundred
thousand. In other words, Todd McFarlane was a millionaire, and he still
took time to come down from BC and spend time inspiring a group of *maybe*
twenty high school kids. And in that time, I got a real sense that Todd
McFarlane drew comics because he *loved* doing it. I can remeber him
saying something along the lines of "I'm really blessed that I can do this
and still make money, still support my family". I can also remember him
being quite obviously furious at Marvel for its treatment of Jack Kirby.
That was what initially sparked his feud with Marvel, in my opinion. He
was so angry that they should treat Kirby that way... right there, he
earned a lot of my respect. Nothing he ever said after that, at the the
store or conventions, has convinced me otherwise.
Now, lest you think this defense was brought on by a drooling
fan-boy standing upfor his hero, I would like to point out that I *really*
don't like McFarlane's style; his anatomy is shockingly bad, his poses
IMHO stink, and I think he is a terrible inker. In addition, I don't think
he could write a decent story to save his life. But that doesn't change my
opinion of him as a human being. The few interviews of and articles by Mr.
McFarlane that I have seen do come across as brusque and egotistical. All
I can say is that every conversation I've ever had with him has convinced
me that he doesn't set out to intentionally hurt anyone, and that anything
he says is said out of an earnest belief that it is the right thing to say
and do. It is this that sets him apart from 501, in my opinion.
Does he have an ego? Certainly. I would too, if I sold as much as
he does. Is he perfect? No. Do we have to agree with his every opinion?
No, again. Still... I have seen Mr. McFarlane and Mr. Liefeld lumped
together again and again in this newsgrup as being like individuals. This
just isn't right. Liefeld is an unspeakably awful person, just evil.
McFarlane doesn't deserve to be lumped together with trash like that. No,
he isn't perfect. But he certainly doesn't deserve to villified as he has
been.
Simply the observations of another *gasp* college student,
John
Jason Duelge
>In article <277oh3$8...@stimpy.css.itd.umich.edu> joeg...@css.itd.umich.edu (Joe Gorde) writes:
> >Patman (gt3...@prism.gatech.EDU) wrote:
>
> >: Does this make me childish? Fine, but I expect professionalism from the
> >: comic publishers that want my $$$, and if some of them can't get their
> >: act together, then they don't deserve my $$$ and will only get my scorn for
> >: them instead.
>
> >How do expect netters to respect your opinions if you present them in
> >an admittedly childish and immature fashion?
>
>Well, first you might want to brush up on your grammar, but I digress... :)
>
that wrote that monster sentence above ... how about that one?
I guess some people will defend their right to abuse (verbally) comic
professionals. No matter what arguments are presented against such behavior,
and despite PAD's comments about his internet-experiment. Great, we'll never
get anymore pros into our sandbox because Patman and ilk insist on their
right to badmouth.
Its easy enough to see why 'college-age kids' get lumped together.
Jason
--
| Jason Duelge | The quickest and most economical way of winning a |
| 141 Lakewood Gardens | military decision is to defeat an enemy not at his |
| Madison, WI 53704 | weakest but at his strongest point. |
| 608-249-9036 | Epaminondas (?) |
Kevin Maguire
tho...@carson.u.washington.edu (John Carrico) wrote:
>
> Still... I have seen Mr. McFarlane and Mr. Liefeld lumped
> together again and again in this newsgrup as being like individuals. This
> just isn't right. Liefeld is an unspeakably awful person, just evil.
> McFarlane doesn't deserve to be lumped together with trash like that. No,
> he isn't perfect. But he certainly doesn't deserve to villified as he has
> been.
You've explained the basis for your opinions of McFarlane. Why do you
call Liefeld "an unspeakably awful person, just evil"? Is this based
on having met him as well?
Judging from the interviews I've read and his work, I think he's an
immature hypocrite with some pretty good ideas but no ability to execute
them, no discipline to try, and a huge ego, but "evil?" Not that I've
seen so far.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Maguire No, not THAT Kevin Maguire
mag...@zappa.jpl.nasa.gov I'm a rocket scientist, not an artist
Glennis the Menace
>
>I guess some people will defend their right to abuse (verbally) comic
>professionals. No matter what arguments are presented against such behavior,
>and despite PAD's comments about his internet-experiment. Great, we'll never
>get anymore pros into our sandbox because Patman and ilk insist on their
>right to badmouth.
Well, I will defend their right to post or argue whatever they want.
But it's very difficult to take posters who resort to the childish
epithets seriously, even if it's well-argued. For myself, it's a
flag, and I just page to the next article. For example, the
roundtable that Patman typed in got ignored, as it was filled with
them. And I killed the thread simultaneously because this sort of
post virtually ensures a lot of vitriolic follow-ups that I won't want
to read, as it's highly inflammatory in any context. Ad hominem will
never help make a point, and will always detract from any substance
that might also be present, in any discussion.
Pax ex machina,
Glenn
......................................................................
"This horror in my head, can't be undone,
It's cold in my castle where I see the sun from"
--- Curve
John Carrico
mag...@zappa.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin Maguire) writes:
>
>In article <278t45$5...@news.u.washington.edu>,
>tho...@carson.u.washington.edu (John Carrico) wrote:
>>
>> Still... I have seen Mr. McFarlane and Mr. Liefeld lumped
>> together again and again in this newsgrup as being like individuals. This
>> just isn't right. Liefeld is an unspeakably awful person, just evil.
>> McFarlane doesn't deserve to be lumped together with trash like that. No,
>> he isn't perfect. But he certainly doesn't deserve to villified as he has
>> been.
>
>You've explained the basis for your opinions of McFarlane. Why do you
>call Liefeld "an unspeakably awful person, just evil"? Is this based
>on having met him as well?
>
>Judging from the interviews I've read and his work, I think he's an
>immature hypocrite with some pretty good ideas but no ability to execute
>them, no discipline to try, and a huge ego, but "evil?" Not that I've
>seen so far.
>
Ah, me. Well, you're probably right; "evil" was probably not the best
choice. I was being a bit facetious, but I can that could easily be lost
in the *painfully* earnest sincerity I was displaying in the rest of the
post. But to explain:
Yes, I have had the .... honor of meeting Rob Liefeld. He was at the store
once, and I just happened to be there at the same time. It wasn't a
signing or anything, he was just in town for some reason and had stopped
by-- lucky us. This afforded me the glorious opportunity to see the great
501 up close and personal, sans any convention glamour. I can't recall the
exact conversation, but I can remember that he was poisonous to some
little kids, positively corrosive to the store employees, that he was fond
of himself on an order of magnitude that Rush Limbaugh would find
distasteful, and was just in general a truly, truly unpleasant human
being. In addition to this, I've also had the opportunity to see several
faxes that he wrote to the store, and heard one side of a phone
conversation held with him. None of these served but to increase my
conviction that he he was -- no, not evil, I guess -- but he sure
is a *not very nice guy*. Admittedly, these were a handful of experiences
spread over a period of several years, so I can't say that he's always like
that... But to be absolutely honest, I must say those glimpses, and
a few conventions he attended, engendered a real loathing in me for Rob
Liefeld.
Oh, and what he did to Louise Simonson *was* fairly evil, in my book.
I didn't intend to discuss 501 when I posted my McFarlane article. You
asked however, and here's my answer.
-sigh-
John
Ron Asbestos Dippold
> It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
> need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
> nicknames for the Image creators. Calling people "McEgo",
> "Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
> dissatisfaction with their behavior.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with calling Liefeld "501"... it's
not a term of scorn at all - he did the ad, it identifies him
uniquely. Who can remember where all the i's and e's go? Leifeild?
Liefield? Leifield? To hell with it, 501. Shadowshit is obviously
derogatory. McEgo may or may not be - he does have a tremendous ego,
and he knows it. It, like McFly and 501, may be just shorthand.
>Frankly, I'm glad more professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc;
>as it is, I'm ashamed of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
My standards of respect may be higher - I still enjoy Spawn, and can
respect Todds prefessionalism, but after what he's said and done I
can't respect him very much as a person. I can see absolutely no
reason whatsoever to respect Leifield. He epitomizes everything
shallow, crooked, and whiny about the comics industry. PAD I respect.
I can think of many others who could be on here who I would respect to
one level or another. Image just has a serious problem in this area,
and it's not us.
--
Don't get stuck in a closet; wear yourself out.
Abhiji...@transarc.com
> In article dub...@husc8.harvard.edu (joev dubach) writes:
> >
> > It's sad that most of the participants of this discussion feel the
> > need to continually make up more and more insulting playground
> > nicknames for the Image creators. Calling people "McEgo",
> > "Shadowshit", "501", etc., is not a very mature way to express your
> > dissatisfaction with their behavior. Frankly, I'm glad more
> > professionals don't read rec.arts.comics.misc; as it is, I'm ashamed
> > of the lack of basic respect shown in this newsgroup.
>
> Heck, I make a good living, but it would be kind of neat to make so much
> money doing something so much fun.
Nonsense. Miller and Gaiman both make very good money (probably not as much as
the Image gang), I'm sure, but I don't see much abuse directed towards them. Tom
and Mary Bierbaum probably don't make that much money from comics, but there
was a time when we used to see lots of abuse directed at them. Jealously
probably has a very small part in it.
Having said, that let me just say that while sometimes it can be kind of fun to
read some of the Liefeld and DeFalco bashing, the amount of bashing on this
list, and the calls for their deaths (even in a humorous fashion) are going way,
way too far.
If you don't like either Liefeld of McFarlane, point out whats wrong with their
art and storytelling. That's a far more effective way of putting down someone.
Heck, write a letter (make it polite) to McFarlane explaining whats wrong with
his work.
Abhijit
Abhiji...@transarc.com
due...@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jason Duelge) writes:
>
> I guess some people will defend their right to abuse (verbally) comic
> professionals. No matter what arguments are presented against such behavior,
> and despite PAD's comments about his internet-experiment. Great, we'll never
> get anymore pros into our sandbox because Patman and ilk insist on their
> right to badmouth.
I'll point out that abusive comments are directed at only a small fraction of
pros. I'd guess that Liefeld, McFarlane, DeFalco, Harras and Lobdell probably
get 90% of the abuse here. Earlier Tom and Mary Bierbaum, Kieth Giffen and Marv
Wolfman came in for some abuse. By contrast there are lots of folks for whom
there are lots of positive comments and very few negative comments : Matt
Wagner, Simon Bisley, Scott McCloud, Neil Gaiman, Dave Sim, George Perez, Alan
Davis, P. Craig Russel, Dave McKean, Paul Chadwick, Barry Windsor Smith, John
Ostrander, Frank Miller, Brian Bolland etc. And for the large majority of pros,
there are generally as many defenders as there are detractors, and even the
detractors rarely use abuse.
This is not to justify the abusive comments made to comics professionals, its
simply to point out that the vast majority of pros are not likely to get any
such comments, and hence, the idea that such abuse is what is keeping them off
USENET is silly.
Abhijit
Damon B. Crumpler
i get sick of the idea that people are inherently worthy of
respect.
i try to treat others with an initial amount of respect (hey,
that's jst the way i am)
but when they start doing things to make me lose that
(or, even just assuming that they automatically deserve it)
then i don't respect them.
i should clarify here there are levels of repsect-
if i dis on 501 or whomever, that doesn't mean that there
isn't soem inherent amount of repsect i have for
him (as a human being), but that indeed i do not respect
much of what he is or does.
i go by dave sim's rule:
never talk about someone inless you're fully committed
toward repeating said things directly to their face.
if someone irks me enough, that is what i'll do, and
as such i feel completeley justified and comfortable with any
badmouthing i do, anywhere
(however, you'll notice i really don't do that much:)
Damon B. Crumpler
okay, mr. john cirroco (sorry if i mispelled your last name)-
here's my question to you-
how WELL does he speak?
i agree with your post based on second hand information about him,
but i also get the impression he's really not very
articulate.
is this true?
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: I guess some people will defend their right to abuse (verbally) comic
: professionals. No matter what arguments are presented against such behavior,
: and despite PAD's comments about his internet-experiment. Great, we'll never
: get anymore pros into our sandbox because Patman and ilk insist on their
: right to badmouth.
: Its easy enough to see why 'college-age kids' get lumped together.
Yeah, the people at Wizard display such profound feats of
professionalism with their insightful commentary and letters and
articles that it makes us look like a bunch of college-age kids, let's
face it.
This is being written as if the net is the *only* place any creator or
fan ever got bad-mouthed. Like we have a monopoly or something.
Let's face it, Rob Liefeld has read TONS of things that discuss himself
in a less-then-flattering light, without even knowing Usenet exists,
and he even (get this) wrote Hero and said it was all in good fun and
no hard feelings.
So what's the problem?
Scott
Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner
: Having said, that let me just say that while sometimes it can be
: kind of fun to
: read some of the Liefeld and DeFalco bashing, the amount of bashing on this
: list, and the calls for their deaths (even in a humorous fashion)
: are going way,
: way too far.
Plus it's so *unnecessary* -- people like Liefeld, DeFalco, the
Bierbaums, they lend themselves to criticism by the gaping deficiencies
in the work they do. You have so *much* to attack about their
work you don't need death threats.
Besides, with them dead, what would anyone discuss? By all means
keep them alive!
Scott
Angeli Wahlstedt
>
>What - you mean some guy slips him a few yen and says "I want you to go out
>and rape so-and-so"? Is it just me, or does that make no sense?
No more senseless than a guy slipping a hit man a few grands and telling
him to go out and bump off so-so.
--
Angeli "Ms. Pepper" Wahlstedt (wahl...@cs.colostate.edu)
"If nobody else was violent, I could conquer the whole stupid planet with
just a butter knife." - Dogbert
joev dubach
I'll point out that abusive comments are directed at only a small fraction of
pros. I'd guess that Liefeld, McFarlane, DeFalco, Harras and Lobdell probably
get 90% of the abuse here. Earlier Tom and Mary Bierbaum, Kieth
Giffen and Marv
Wolfman came in for some abuse. By contrast there are lots of folks for whom
there are lots of positive comments and very few negative comments : Matt
Wagner, Simon Bisley, Scott McCloud, Neil Gaiman, Dave Sim, George Perez, Alan
Davis, P. Craig Russel, Dave McKean, Paul Chadwick, Barry Windsor Smith, John
Ostrander, Frank Miller, Brian Bolland etc. And for the large
majority of pros,
there are generally as many defenders as there are detractors, and even the
detractors rarely use abuse.
This is not to justify the abusive comments made to comics professionals, its
simply to point out that the vast majority of pros are not likely to get any
such comments, and hence, the idea that such abuse is what is keeping them off
USENET is silly.
I disagree; suppose you were one of the more "popular" creators, and
you took some time to look in. Seeing that your peers were not being
given any respect, you'd be disgusted. The thing is, calling _anyone_
names reflects badly on you as a person; when lots of people on racm
do it, it reflects badly upon the entire community.
It's not just a matter of creators seeing themselves being insulted;
it's a matter of anyone being insulted in the first place. I just
don't think it's appropriate.
Stop it.
Joev
joev dubach
This is being written as if the net is the *only* place any creator or
fan ever got bad-mouthed. Like we have a monopoly or something.
...
So what's the problem?
"Everybody else is bad-mouthing. Why can't I bad-mouth?"
Because it's not right. It makes you look stupid, and by association,
makes the entire racm community look stupid.
Don't do it.
Joev
zombie
[badmouthing]
>Because it's not right. It makes you look stupid, and by association,
>makes the entire racm community look stupid.
>
>Don't do it.
Nonsense. This is a *discussion* group. Discuss what you dislike, and
back it up with reasons. Discuss what you like, and back it up with
reasons. I think the problem here, if any, is that people naturally
talk more about things they dislike. It's easire to notice a thorn
in your thumb than the lack of one.
zombie
--
"You rope 'em, we brand 'em" -Sunset Gang Slogan ## "Get bent!" -Bartman #
### "I hate it when I can't gird my loins with funny animals." -Calvin ###
## Hit me Woody! Four fingers of the meanest swill you got! --Frasier ##
"We'll make great pets" -Porno for Pyros #=;^)# zom...@redeye.EBay.Sun.COM
zombie
>It's easire to notice...
^^^^^^
Duh...||||||...is that a real word? I meant "easier".