comic artist salaries-always wondered
Davis Chung
there
must be a wide range but I have no idea what it may be. Considering how much
of a slump the industry is in, how profitable is it?
Just wondering.
GrapeApe
Don't expect much of an answer. There are several times I have tried to sneak
out this question in a way that would not embarass any of the people involved,
to no avail.
Possibly the rudest question you can ask someone is "how much do you make?"
Usually that is given out on a need to know basis (bankers, taxmen). Or openly
shared amongst their own kind as a gauge of their own pay scale.
Any creative field is filled with people working slave wages or LESS. Because
it is work they WANT to do they can be had rather cheaply by the publishers and
distributors of the world. There is always someone younger than you fighting to
get in, with fewer mouths to feed.
You might get a better idea checking out something like Artists or Writers
Digest books, and something like the Ethical Guidlines for Graphic Artists may
give a clue, if said ethical standards are actually followed in this business.
Sometimes I think the following may not be too unreasonable.. professionals
that know better are more than welcome to correct any misconceptions.
Writing, lettering, inking, coloring- no idea.
Penciler. Lets say they are paid around a hundred dollars a page, and can do
one book a month. 2200 smackers. Maybe around double the minimum wage? Is this
far off base ladies and gentlemen?
This is a page a day artist. Some can do 4 pages a day, many do 2 pages a day.
If their page rate permits, they can crank out more. They can also resell their
originals to the fan base- averaging out about the same rate the publisher paid
them, doubling their income depending on the market value of their work the
amount of pages they kept for themselves rather than shared with inkers etc...
50 k perhaps? Of course there are those lean and hungry times of less
assignments coming an artists way,
probably knocking back income to at least burger flipping scale, and there will
be those who do fantastically well and could have little problem pulling 100k a
year. Of course, they may only be at this scale for 5 or ten years.... They
lose interest, or the readership loses interests, the grind gets to them, they
find more lucrative ways to live...,etc...
Is the average Comic professional doing better financially than the average
school teacher?
John Northey
>Don't expect much of an answer. There are several times I have tried to sneak
>out this question in a way that would not embarass any of the people involved,
>to no avail.
>
>Possibly the rudest question you can ask someone is "how much do you make?"
>Usually that is given out on a need to know basis (bankers, taxmen). Or openly
>shared amongst their own kind as a gauge of their own pay scale.
Funny thing is, the more thats known about what people make the more
they end up making as a general rule.
The best example offhand is hockey. A few years ago, in the middle of
a contract between players and management the owners decided for
reason I cannot recall to release the player salary information. I
guess to make people see how greedy they were or something. Next
thing you knew players were jumping each other in contracts due to
them going 'hey, you know I'm better than so-and-so but they make more
than me so fix it or else'.
Now, picture this in comics. Suppose you are the writer on, oh, X-Men
and you learn that Marvel is paying the writer on, say, Thor 50% more
than what you are getting. How would you react? Well, probably by
storming the head office and pointing out your title outsells that
other one and you deserve much more. Meanwhile DC might look at your
low wage and decide to call you up and offer you a contract to do a
title that needs a boost, a contract that puts you into the high pay
level.
Only problem here is the fact that hockey is booming, thus making
jumps in salary possible vs comics which have never had such low
revenue streams for top sellers. Still, don't all you creators out
there think it would help you when you go into the boss if you could
point out that you are not getting what people doing a worse job than
you are getting? I know I'd love to know what others in my office and
others doing my job make. Sure would make it easier to demand a raise
(having proof that I'm a bargin).
Eh, just my pov.
John Northey.
Fishnet Kid and creator of the Fans of Teri Sue Wood site.
http://terisuewood.home.ml.org
Om shanti
<dc_t...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I always wondered, about how much money do comic artists make? I realize
> there must be a wide range but I have no idea what it may be. Considering
how much
> of a slump the industry is in, how profitable is it? Just wondering.
Well, I'm not going to condescend to you and say that this sort of
information is "secret" or any of the sort. Nevertheless, the range is
wider than you suspect. For instance, are you talking about artists who
work for DCDarkHorseImageMarvel, artists who work for a smaller mainstream
press like Caliber, artists who work for a still smaller publisher like
Drawn and Quarterly, or artists who self-publish?
Two years ago, my friend made $150 a page for DC. This year, Alex Robinson
made about 3.7 cents an hour working on _Box Office Poison_ (by his own
calculation). I've never been paid as a penciller, but as a writer I've
made $35 a page for some company best left alone. I've also had associates
who've made between $50 and $175 a page for their work.
If that helps, well...glad to be of service.
--
Om shanti
Adam (Revanche)
My company has two methods of payment across the board for all members of a
team. Either a flat rate per storyline (writers, letterers) or per page
(pencillers, inkers, colour) or as a commission basis depending on sales
with an advance on projected sales.
Flat rate is negotiated according to the contract the artist is willing to
enter into - we usually do it for a run of 12 issues with a renew clause
included for a further 12 etc. etc. Added to that comes the quality of the
work. If an artists portfolio submission shows the highest standards, and
the artist can maintain that standard they will receive a better offer. The
idea being, of course, to keep that artist working on a series and maintain
the standards and for continuality purposes.
Percentage on commission is also negotiable. The penciller and inker tend to
get a slightly higher rate of commission than the colour, writer and
letterer do.
Then there are translation rights and reprint rights. We also write into our
contracts a special clause that if we resell a work to another language
market the team receive a portion of the monies gained by the sale. The same
with a reprint, a portion of the income goes to the team.
A good team is worth keeping together, and thus the differing rates and
conditions, especially when you consider that very few artists seem to be
interested in putting their work forward as a portfolio for consideration
these days. By that I mean we have an expanding market here in Europe -
especially in Germany and the German - speaking countries - but surprisingly
few people who are interested in trying their work outside a dwindling
marketplace (USA at present).
---
Adam
ad...@privat.kkf.net
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/intellect
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/ce
Robin Riggs
> Sometimes I think the following may not be too unreasonable.. professionals
> that know better are more than welcome to correct any misconceptions.
Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
average numbers:
Writer......$90/page
Penciller...$180/page
Inker.......$120/page
A lot of people are on less than that and some are on considerably more.
If you're in demand enough to be offered an exclusive contract it can
double your page rate. A few years ago there was silly money flying
around with some being paid up to $20,000 per issue. There aren't too
many deals like that anymore.
--
Robin Riggs
jsun...@hotmail.com
Raymond style art...... which is knocking down my hourly to about $3.00 an
hour.....I think most small press right now are in the $20-$40 range, for
pencils. But I didn't kiss any ass to get the gig, and the money I save on
chapstick makes up for it.
Evan
STUDIO-HADES
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/9974
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jason Fliegel
Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
>GrapeApe <grap...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Sometimes I think the following may not be too unreasonable.. professionals
>> that know better are more than welcome to correct any misconceptions.
>
>Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
>proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
>average numbers:
These are, I assume, for non-novice creators working for the larger
companies (Marvel/DC/Image)?
>Writer......$90/page
$90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
>Penciller...$180/page
$180/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $47,520 per book per year
>Inker.......$120/page
$120/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $31,680 per book per year
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
3L, University of Chicago Law School
Leonard Kirk
Jason Fliegel wrote in message ...
>In article <1dh3bqd.13q...@p82.nas1.is5.u-net.net>,
>Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
>>GrapeApe <grap...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sometimes I think the following may not be too unreasonable..
professionals
>>> that know better are more than welcome to correct any misconceptions.
>>
>>Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
>>proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
>>average numbers:
>
>These are, I assume, for non-novice creators working for the larger
>companies (Marvel/DC/Image)?
Definitely.
LJK
Bradly E. Peterson
deal:
>In article <1dh3bqd.13q...@p82.nas1.is5.u-net.net>,
>Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
>>GrapeApe <grap...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Writer......$90/page
>$90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
>
>>Penciller...$180/page
>$180/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $47,520 per book per year
>
>>Inker.......$120/page
>$120/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $31,680 per book per year
Thanks to Robin And Jason for the figures. Now... Let's assume
that the writer in this bunch can script TWO books a month, ok?
That would make his income equal to the penciller, and more than
the inker. Now, this being the case, it seems that the writer
can end up being much better off than either artist, because he
could probably squeeze yet another monthly script in if he really
wanted to.
So, this whole business of the writer being entitled to original
pages is a lotta baloney. Should he be offered the option to buy
some of the pages? At discount maybe? Well, that sounds nice.
heh... Nah... Screw the discount. If the writer wants original
pages, then let said writer pony up the sumoleans. That said, if
the writer DOES wanna buy some pages, then the writer should get
first crack at 'em (the one's the artists are going to sell, that
is.)
THAT said, do I think that the art team should give up an art
page if it's the writer's first published work? Well, that'd
sure be a nice gesture, a fine gift, a token of their esteem, but
it shouldn't be expected. heh...
Oh well, it's late and I've gotten silly. Later...
Bradly E. Peterson, Psychodrama Press
(Remove OMELETTEDUFROMAGE from address to reply)
<http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/drama>
"Obscene" = 'It turns me on and I don't like it'.
(Samael)
GrapeApe
>companies (Marvel/DC/Image)?
I have a feeling that isn't even an average, but rather a mean value.
Jason Fliegel
Bradly E. Peterson <dramaOMELET...@fastlane.net> wrote:
>jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu (Jason Fliegel) done said this here
>deal:
>>In article <1dh3bqd.13q...@p82.nas1.is5.u-net.net>,
>>Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
>
>>>Writer......$90/page
>>$90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
>>
>>>Penciller...$180/page
>>$180/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $47,520 per book per year
>>
>>>Inker.......$120/page
>>$120/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $31,680 per book per year
>
>Thanks to Robin And Jason for the figures. Now... Let's assume
>that the writer in this bunch can script TWO books a month, ok?
>That would make his income equal to the penciller, and more than
>the inker. Now, this being the case, it seems that the writer
>can end up being much better off than either artist, because he
>could probably squeeze yet another monthly script in if he really
>wanted to.
>
>So, this whole business of the writer being entitled to original
>pages is a lotta baloney.
For me, at least, the argument that the writer shold get some of the art
boards found its weakest support in the notion of pay inequality. Of
course writers and artists get paid differently; they're doing different
jobs. For me, the much stronger argument is that the art boards embody
the writer's work -- they display the plot that the writer created, they
feature the dialogue the writer scripted (although this is becoming less
and less true in this day of computerized lettering not being pasted
directly onto the art boards, from what I understand). To borrow a term
from the law, the art boards would not exist in the form that they do "but
for" the contribution of the writer.
But I'm sure nobody wants to revisit this particular debate this soon.
Jason Fliegel
A mean (and I assume you mean an arithmetic mean) is an average, although
by no means the only type of average. I suspect you're right -- when most
people say "average," they mean (no pun intended) the arithmetic mean.
Leonard Kirk
>that the writer in this bunch can script TWO books a month, ok?
>That would make his income equal to the penciller, and more than
>the inker. Now, this being the case, it seems that the writer
>can end up being much better off than either artist, because he
>could probably squeeze yet another monthly script in if he really
>wanted to.
>
>So, this whole business of the writer being entitled to original
>some of the pages? At discount maybe? Well, that sounds nice.
>heh... Nah... Screw the discount. If the writer wants original
>pages, then let said writer pony up the sumoleans. That said, if
>the writer DOES wanna buy some pages, then the writer should get
>first crack at 'em (the one's the artists are going to sell, that
>is.)
>
>THAT said, do I think that the art team should give up an art
>page if it's the writer's first published work? Well, that'd
>sure be a nice gesture, a fine gift, a token of their esteem, but
>it shouldn't be expected. heh...
>
>Oh well, it's late and I've gotten silly. Later...
Speaking as a penciller, I have no objection to the writer receiving some of
the artwork. After all, without the story there would be no artwork. We're
illustrators. That means we need something to illustrate. Having said that,
I certainly don't think that the writer should be placed on equal footing
when dividing the pages. He/she shouldn't get a third of them. However, a
couple of pages per issue would be accceptable.
Personally, I make it a policy to send two to three pages per issue from
each project to the writer myself. I just think it's fair.
LJK
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
: >average numbers:
: >Writer......$90/page
: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
I think the word "ballpark" was used quite deliberately.
- Elayne
--
Girls, girls. You're both pretty! Now take it to email, please.
- Chris Pierson <cpie...@tiac.net>
commenting on a Usenet flamewar
("I stole it from Homicide anyway")
JOEY 91069
>pages is a lotta baloney. Should he be offered the option to buy
>some of the pages? At discount maybe? Well, that sounds nice.
>heh... Nah... Screw the discount. If the writer wants original
>pages, then let said writer pony up the sumoleans.
I don't agree with that. The writer had as much to do with the finished product
as anybody, and should be entitled to a couple of pages. Money isn't the issue,
it is the fact that it's his work on the page, he should get at least a couple
of pages.
Joey
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >So, this whole business of the writer being entitled to original
: >pages is a lotta baloney. Should he be offered the option to buy
: >some of the pages? At discount maybe? Well, that sounds nice.
: >heh... Nah... Screw the discount. If the writer wants original
: >pages, then let said writer pony up the sumoleans.
: I don't agree with that. The writer had as much to do with the finished product
: as anybody, and should be entitled to a couple of pages.
The art boards aren't the finished product. They're a component, and
property of the artist from day one. The publishers don't even own them.
The finished product is the comic book, and yes, the writer is entitled to
comp copies of that the same as the rest of the creators are.
GrapeApe
>pages is a lotta baloney.
No, you'd probably find a lot of artists staring at a blank page without the
writer telling them what is going on in the story.
Neil4161
boards found its weakest support in the notion of pay inequality. Of
course writers and artists get paid differently; they're doing different
jobs. For me, the much stronger argument is that the art boards embody
the writer's work -- they display the plot that the writer created, they
feature the dialogue the writer scripted (although this is becoming less
and less true in this day of computerized lettering not being pasted
directly onto the art boards, from what I understand). To borrow a term
from the law, the art boards would not exist in the form that they do "but
for" the contribution of the writer.
But I'm sure nobody wants to revisit this particular debate this soon.
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
3L, University of Chicago Law School
>>
My belief is that writers traditionally don't recive pieces of typeset magazine
pages as a bonus. Their part of the product is a pice of the process. That,
having been said, I do think the artists should send a page or two (either free
or at a discounted rate) if it has a sentimental significance. That builds
great bonds between the artist and writer.
Neil A. Hansen
Todd VerBeek
>>>companies (Marvel/DC/Image)?
>GrapeApe <grap...@aol.com> wrote:
>>I have a feeling that isn't even an average, but rather a mean value.
My pal Jason Fliegel said:
>A mean (and I assume you mean an arithmetic mean) is an average, although
>by no means the only type of average. I suspect you're right -- when most
>people say "average," they mean (no pun intended) the arithmetic mean.
I think it is safe to say, however, that a great many artists working in
comics are making a rather mean(*) living. {wry grin}
(*) "lacking dignity or honor"
Cheers, Todd
GrapeApe
>>>companies (Marvel/DC/Image)?
>>
>A mean (and I assume you mean an arithmetic mean) is an average, >although
>by no means the only type of average. I suspect you're right -- when >most
>people say "average," they mean (no pun intended) the arithmetic mean.
Or perhaps I event meant median. I've been away from prob/stat for a while.
Theres a lot of assumptions in any such term, including a normal population.
The data may not fit a bell curve if munched on a dollar rate, you might have
more that one class of payrate being involved creating more than one hump in
the curve.
Todd VerBeek
>: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
>: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
>: >average numbers:
>
>: >Writer......$90/page
>Jason Fliegel (jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
My pal Elayne Wechsler-Chaput said:
>What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
>that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
>I think the word "ballpark" was used quite deliberately.
Well he had to assume =something= to make these projections, and it seems
reasonable to go with the average number of pages/issue, and the standard
number of issues/year. Sure there are variations, but it's a natural
place to start.
Granted, he probably included too many significant digits in his yearly
totals (I don't remember the rules for that), and statistical margins of
error would have been nice, but I think we all understand that these
totals are "ballpark" (and would have to be adjusted depending on the
various factors that go into them), not excerpts from anyone's IRS 1040.
Cheers, Todd
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70fg19$n...@panix3.panix.com>,
: Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
: >Jason Fliegel (jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: >: Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
: >: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
: >: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
: >: >average numbers:
: >
: >: >Writer......$90/page
: >: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
: >
: >What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
: >that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
: Most comics (at least, most comics from Marvel and DC, which is what we
: seemed to be talking about here) are 12 issues per year...
But not all 12 issues are always written by the same writer and worked on
by the same art team. That was my point-- how the work schedule varies
despite the schedule of the book.
Adam (Revanche)
wrote previously about the two different sorts of payment contracts we
offer, I stick with a set price for the writer - more if he collaborates
further with the artists. The penciller and the inker start at about $60 per
page and our issues have 32 pages. That's 32 pages of artwork, no adverts,
no letters page etc.
And despite that it's surprisingly hard to find quality inkers, pencillers
and so on ...
Jason Fliegel
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>Jason Fliegel (jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
>: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
>: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
>: >average numbers:
>
>: >Writer......$90/page
>
>: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
>
>What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
>that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
Most comics (at least, most comics from Marvel and DC, which is what we
seemed to be talking about here) are 12 issues per year, 22 pages per
issue. Yes, there is some variation -- but that's why I included the
figures I used instead of just saying "$23,760" in conclusory fashion.
Nat Gertler
Yeah, and you'd find a lot of users staring blankly at their
computer without my computer books... but it doesn't mean
that because they're using my books, I can steal part of
their computer.
Jason Fliegel
Todd VerBeek <ver...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>These are, I assume, for non-novice creators working for the larger
>>>>companies (Marvel/DC/Image)?
>
>>>I have a feeling that isn't even an average, but rather a mean value.
>
>>by no means the only type of average. I suspect you're right -- when most
>>people say "average," they mean (no pun intended) the arithmetic mean.
>
>comics are making a rather mean(*) living. {wry grin}
>
>(*) "lacking dignity or honor"
Hey, it may not be much money, but at least it pays the rent -- so they
don't have to live on the mean streets.
(With apologies to Martin Scorsese).
DwayneM595
>computer without my computer books... but it doesn't mean
>that because they're using my books, I can steal part of
>their computer.
It doesn't? Then gimme back my *monitor,* Nat!
Dwayne McDuffie
Bradly E. Peterson
>>So, this whole business of the writer being entitled to original
>>pages is a lotta baloney.
>
>No, you'd probably find a lot of artists staring at a blank page without the
>writer telling them what is going on in the story.
Tell it to Frank Miller, Will Eisner, Brian Michael Bendis, Tim
Truman, Rick Veitch & Howard Cruse.
Nat Gertler
Hey, that's not part of the computer. It's a -peripheral-. Fair game.
And this cheap-ass joystick of yours doesn't go left
anymore. You owe, Dwayne, you owe me!
GrapeApe
>>No, you'd probably find a lot of artists staring at a blank page without the
>>writer telling them what is going on in the story.
>Tell it to Frank Miller, Will Eisner, Brian Michael Bendis, Tim
>Truman, Rick Veitch & Howard Cruse.
No need to. They have no argument with the writer getting pages of the artwork
in those circumstances.
There are plenty of artists out there that need a story to tell, its not
already pouring out of them. If they want to thank their story man with a
couple of pages, its their decision.
ShutUpRob
In article <19981019185926...@ng144.aol.com>, neil...@aol.com
(Neil4161) writes:
><<For me, at least, the argument that the writer shold get some of the art
>boards found its weakest support in the notion of pay inequality. Of
>course writers and artists get paid differently; they're doing different
>jobs. For me, the much stronger argument is that the art boards embody
>the writer's work -- they display the plot that the writer created, they
>feature the dialogue the writer scripted (although this is becoming less
>and less true in this day of computerized lettering not being pasted
>directly onto the art boards, from what I understand). To borrow a term
>from the law, the art boards would not exist in the form that they do "but
>for" the contribution of the writer.
>
>But I'm sure nobody wants to revisit this particular debate this soon.
Oh, come on. It's not as if we don't already have a hundred
other zombie-threads-that-will-not-die going at the same time. 8^P
-- Rob Jensen
=======================================
"I'm waiting for my Princess Charming." -- rcj
=======================================
Slandered by the M*owers. Read the FAQ at
<http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html>
Justin Savage
<Reva...@Research.fakeaddy.com> wrote:
I'm not really surprised. At $60/pg the inker is better off working
pre-press production at $10-20/hr (depending on what and where). Blame it
on education. Once people learn what illustrators make outside of comics
and what kinds of rights they maintain, nobody is crazy enough to want to
work for peanuts in comics unless they own the work...or a larger company
gives them a good deal.
--
Justin Savage
savages...@sabresedge.com
Sabre's Edge
http://www.sabresedge.com
DwayneM595
>anymore. You owe, Dwayne, you owe me!
You're telling me my joystick's broke? That's what *she* said...
Dwayne McDuffie
Nat Gertler
>
> >And this cheap-ass joystick of yours doesn't go left
> >anymore. You owe, Dwayne, you owe me!
>
> You're telling me my joystick's broke? That's what *she* said...
I think we have the start of a country/western song here:
"She left me and took my Nintendo 64;
Now my joystick's got no joy no more..."
--Nat (running Lara Croft around in little clockwise circles)
Dwight Williams
I am *not* going to comment on this!!!
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Maintainer/Founder - DEOList for _Chase_ Fandom
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: An interesting set of 'ballpark' figures. As a publisher, remembering what I
: wrote previously about the two different sorts of payment contracts we
: offer, I stick with a set price for the writer - more if he collaborates
: further with the artists. The penciller and the inker start at about $60 per
: page and our issues have 32 pages. That's 32 pages of artwork, no adverts,
: no letters page etc.
: And despite that it's surprisingly hard to find quality inkers, pencillers
: and so on ...
DESPITE that? That's an awfully low rate, I'm not surprised you're having
problems finding quality artists. That's well below beginning rate at the
majors, and probablly average for beginning rate at indies, which
traditionally attract less experienced artists than the majors.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >: Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
: >: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
: >: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
: >: >average numbers:
: >
: >: >Writer......$90/page
: >Jason Fliegel (jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: >: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
: My pal Elayne Wechsler-Chaput said:
: >What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
: >that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
: >I think the word "ballpark" was used quite deliberately.
: Well he had to assume =something= to make these projections
You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very few people wind
up with 12 steady issues of the same book per year, particularly artists.
However, in many cases this is offset by specials and covers and other
things they do. It's not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary,
so extrapolations seem fairly meaningless. Particularly if, say, a book
is CANCELLED or something?
Marc Fleury -- ABDO Entertainment
>Adam (Revanche) (Reva...@Research.fakeaddy.com.) wrote:
>: The penciller and the inker start at about $60 per
>: page and our issues have 32 pages.
>: And despite that it's surprisingly hard to find quality inkers, pencillers
>: and so on ...
>
>DESPITE that? That's an awfully low rate, I'm not surprised you're having
>problems finding quality artists. That's well below beginning rate at the
>majors, and probablly average for beginning rate at indies,
Which indies are you refering to? I'd say that the average rate at
most indies is somewhere around $0 per page. Plus royalties, of
course.
Marc Fleury
ABDO Entertainment.
http://www.panel1.com/abdo
--
>> ATTENTION RETAILERS! <<
For FREE promotional material (including free comics)
from ABDO Entertainment, just reply to this message by
email, and send your store's contact info.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: >Adam (Revanche) (Reva...@Research.fakeaddy.com.) wrote:
: >: The penciller and the inker start at about $60 per
: >: page and our issues have 32 pages.
: >: And despite that it's surprisingly hard to find quality inkers, pencillers
: >: and so on ...
: >
: >DESPITE that? That's an awfully low rate, I'm not surprised you're having
: >problems finding quality artists. That's well below beginning rate at the
: >majors, and probablly average for beginning rate at indies,
: Which indies are you refering to? I'd say that the average rate at
: most indies is somewhere around $0 per page. Plus royalties, of
: course.
Ask Benny Powell what he pays. My lips are sealed. :)
- Elayne (once had a $100/page writing contract from World Comics)
Justin Savage
Fleury -- ABDO Entertainment) wrote:
> fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>
> >Adam (Revanche) (Reva...@Research.fakeaddy.com.) wrote:
> >: The penciller and the inker start at about $60 per
> >: page and our issues have 32 pages.
> >: And despite that it's surprisingly hard to find quality inkers, pencillers
> >: and so on ...
> >
> >DESPITE that? That's an awfully low rate, I'm not surprised you're having
> >problems finding quality artists. That's well below beginning rate at the
> >majors, and probablly average for beginning rate at indies,
>
> Which indies are you refering to? I'd say that the average rate at
> most indies is somewhere around $0 per page. Plus royalties, of
> course.
In my experience most indies do it themselves.
Justin Savage
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> Todd VerBeek (ver...@bigfoot.com) wrote:
> : >: Robin Riggs <robin...@soulmate.u-net.com> wrote:
> : >: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
> : >: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
> : >: >average numbers:
> : >
> : >: >Writer......$90/page
>
> : >Jason Fliegel (jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> : >: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
>
> : My pal Elayne Wechsler-Chaput said:
> : >What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
> : >that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
> : >I think the word "ballpark" was used quite deliberately.
>
> : Well he had to assume =something= to make these projections
>
> You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
>
> This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very few people wind
> up with 12 steady issues of the same book per year, particularly artists.
> However, in many cases this is offset by specials and covers and other
> things they do. It's not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary,
> so extrapolations seem fairly meaningless. Particularly if, say, a book
> is CANCELLED or something?
Heh heh...jeez Elayne, your point about stability of income is valid, but
I don't think that arguing over a hypothetical number based on a
hypothetical page rate is worth it. :)
Just stick a "but in reality there is this to deal with" line on it.
Adam (Revanche)
Adam (Revanche) wrote:
The penciller and the inker start at about $60 per page
Justin Savage replied:
I'm not really surprised. At $60/pg the inker is better off working
pre-press production at $10-20/hr (depending on what and where).
<<
I've only quoted the one line from my post and the one line from Justin's to
make a small point. When I write 'start at about' I mean that is the minimum
per page that the lesser paid artist will receive, and not that they will
receive $60 per page regardless of what they do.
On some contracts from my company it is possible for an inker to earn DM
9800 per issue.
Adam (Revanche)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput schrieb in Nachricht <70i8jf$n...@panix3.panix.com>...
That's an awfully low rate, I'm not surprised you're having problems finding
quality artists. That's well below beginning rate at the
majors, and probablly average for beginning rate at indies, which
traditionally attract less experienced artists than the majors.
<<
I am an independent publisher and, as I mention in another post, these are
starting rates and starting rates are 'traditionally' those for the least
experienced in the field.
Marc Fleury -- ABDO Entertainment
ab...@kingston.net (Marc Fleury -- ABDO Entertainment) wrote:
>> Which indies are you refering to? I'd say that the average rate at
>> most indies is somewhere around $0 per page. Plus royalties, of
>> course.
>In my experience most indies do it themselves.
In which case they get paid LESS than $0 per page!
-- Marc.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >>
: Elayne Wechsler-Chaput schrieb in Nachricht <70i8jf$n...@panix3.panix.com>...
Yes, well then you can't whine about not finding quality artists, right?
Because the quality of the art is likely to get higher as the artist gains
in experience, and your kind of salary is not attractive to experienced
artists.
- Elayne
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70i8ot$n...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: > You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
: >
: > This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very few people wind
: > up with 12 steady issues of the same book per year, particularly artists.
: > However, in many cases this is offset by specials and covers and other
: > things they do. It's not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary,
: > so extrapolations seem fairly meaningless. Particularly if, say, a book
: > is CANCELLED or something?
: Heh heh...jeez Elayne, your point about stability of income is valid, but
: I don't think that arguing over a hypothetical number based on a
: hypothetical page rate is worth it. :)
I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
ShutUpRob
>This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very
>few people wind up with 12 steady issues of the same book
>per year, particularly artists. However, in many cases this
>is offset by specials and covers and other things they do. It's
>not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary, so extrapolations
>seem fairly meaningless. Particularly if, say, a book is CANCELLED
>or something?
Well, y'know, if they'd actually do 12 steady issues of the
comic in a row, then maybe the books wouldnt get cancelled
because the readers' attentions wouldn't feel the need wander
to artists who are less self-indulgent.
Justin Savage
Fleury -- ABDO Entertainment) wrote:
> savages...@sabresedge.com (Justin Savage) wrote:
>
> ab...@kingston.net (Marc Fleury -- ABDO Entertainment) wrote:
> >> Which indies are you refering to? I'd say that the average rate at
> >> most indies is somewhere around $0 per page. Plus royalties, of
> >> course.
>
> >In my experience most indies do it themselves.
>
> In which case they get paid LESS than $0 per page!
Heh heh...depends on the book. ;)
Justin Savage
<Reva...@Research.fakeaddy.com> wrote:
Whats that in dollars american? (It's hard to keep this in perspective
without knowing the currency exchange rates)
I don't know how the comics market is in Germany. (Though oddly enough I
have had orders from there.) However, there are very few indies over here
that survive doing comics alone while spending their money paying
employees. Alot of the people that publish/attempt to publish other
peoples work go under really fast or screw people out of art work/time by
promising payment and sneaking little clauses in based on print run and
profit. (I'm not going to name any names but dammit they know who they
are...)
Justin Savage
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> Justin Savage (savages...@sabresedge.com) wrote:
> : In article <70i8ot$n...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> : Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> : Heh heh...jeez Elayne, your point about stability of income is valid, but
> : I don't think that arguing over a hypothetical number based on a
> : hypothetical page rate is worth it. :)
>
> I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
> hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
> of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
> it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
> little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
Some people just like playing with numbers? We could always just start a
"Depressing comic book page rates (and whether you can actually find
somebody to pay it in this market) reality" thread. Then we could save all
the horror stories and post them on a page and send all the aspiring
comics people to it to scare them into the priesthood. Sound like fun? :)
Adam (Revanche)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput schrieb in Nachricht <70iobt$h...@panix3.panix.com>...
>Yes, well then you can't whine about not finding quality artists, right?
>Because the quality of the art is likely to get higher as the artist gains
>in experience, and your kind of salary is not attractive to experienced
>artists.
I don't think it quite got through, so I'll post it for a third time. $60
per page is a STARTING rate for the least experienced. The exchange rate at
the moment is DM 1,70 to $1 and an artist can earn DM 9800 per issue with my
company. That is rather more, bearing in mind the comics are 32 pages, than
a mere $60 per page, isn't it? $100 dollars per page earned by you, Elayne,
is considerably LESS than what I've paid for a high quality artist.
Or do I need to point out the pay rates a fourth time?
Todd VerBeek
>: >: >Okay, I'll give you some ballpark figures that'll at least give you the
>: >: >proportions between writer/penciller/inker. These are some pretty
>: >: >average numbers:
>: >: >Writer......$90/page
>: >Jason Fliegel (jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: >: $90/page * 22pages/issue * 12issues/year = $23,760 per book per year
>: My pal Elayne Wechsler-Chaput said:
>: >What makes you automatically assume 12 issues a year, Jason? Or, for
>: >that matter, 22 pages an issue? Some are 21, some are 23.
>: >I think the word "ballpark" was used quite deliberately.
>Todd VerBeek (ver...@bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: Well he had to assume =something= to make these projections
My pal Elayne Wechsler-Chaput said:
>You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
Because he wanted to figure out what a comics writer or artist might be
able to earn in a year. You know: ballparking income potential. That was
kind of the =point= of the discussion.
>This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very few people wind
>up with 12 steady issues of the same book per year, particularly artists.
>However, in many cases this is offset by specials and covers and other
>things they do. It's not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary,
>so extrapolations seem fairly meaningless.
They would be if we had any better data to go on. But unless a bunch of
people in various parts of the industry are willing to tell us all what
they actually make in a year (and I wouldn't expect a single one of them
to do so), extrapolations are the best we have. And for the people
interested in the subject, that data is not at all "meaningless".
Like I said before, nobody's filling out 1040's or drawing up their annual
budgets or writing up next year's Parade income survey from these figures.
But they're a useful =starting= point in understanding earning potential
in a career. Suppose I'm in school and trying to figure out what kind of
job to pursue. One of the first things I'm going to do is assess whether
or not I can make a living at any of them. So I'd start with a cocktail
napkin and a pencil and do some rough calculations, like these. Or would
you rather we all just stay completely in the dark and not talk about it?
Cheers, Todd
Hernan Espinoza
>Like I said before, nobody's filling out 1040's or drawing up their annual
>budgets or writing up next year's Parade income survey from these figures.
>But they're a useful =starting= point in understanding earning potential
>in a career. Suppose I'm in school and trying to figure out what kind of
>job to pursue. One of the first things I'm going to do is assess whether
>or not I can make a living at any of them. So I'd start with a cocktail
>napkin and a pencil and do some rough calculations, like these. Or would
>you rather we all just stay completely in the dark and not talk about it?
If one is thinking of graduate school or an artistic career, I can
assure you one *must* stay in the dark and not talk about it...or one will
wise up and become a programmer. 8-)
-Hernan
Robin Riggs
> Or do I need to point out the pay rates a fourth time?
I don't know, maybe you're not getting the quality of artists that
you're looking for because you have trouble making it clear what your
rates of pay are. You certainly seem to be having problems here.
--
Robin Riggs
Robin Riggs
> Suppose I'm in school and trying to figure out what kind of
> job to pursue. One of the first things I'm going to do is assess whether
> or not I can make a living at any of them. So I'd start with a cocktail
> napkin and a pencil and do some rough calculations, like these.
That's more or less the reason I posted the figures that spawned this
thread. It was something I took the trouble to find out while I was
still in college so I assume that others would find the information
useful.
> Or would
> you rather we all just stay completely in the dark and not talk about it?
Don't be silly, Todd. Just as you can use the figures to extrapolate
what you think COULD be a potential income based on those figures,
Elayne is quite right to point out that simple multiplication does not
give you the whole story.
Or would you rather keep financial realities out of the equation?
--
Robin Riggs
Bradly E. Peterson
>>>No, you'd probably find a lot of artists staring at a blank page without the
>>>writer telling them what is going on in the story.
>
>>Tell it to Frank Miller, Will Eisner, Brian Michael Bendis, Tim
>>Truman, Rick Veitch & Howard Cruse.
>
>No need to. They have no argument with the writer getting pages of the artwork
>in those circumstances.
>
>There are plenty of artists out there that need a story to tell, its not
>already pouring out of them. If they want to thank their story man with a
>couple of pages, its their decision.
Absolutely correct.
However, it's not for the writer to demand pages, right?
Bradly E. Peterson, Psychodrama Press
(Remove OMELETTEDUFROMAGE from address to reply)
<http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/drama>
"Obscene" = 'It turns me on and I don't like it'.
(Samael)
John Northey
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
>hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
>of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
>it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
>little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
Well, speaking as a person who extrapolates hypothetical numbers for a
living I think its quite useful 8)
I forget the exact numbers listed earlier, but taking them and
figuring out what it would work out to if an artist stayed on one
regular sized title for a full year seems perfectly reasonable. Yes,
many (most?) artists don't get a full year non-stop on a title but its
still a good way to guesstimate what creators can make. For a range
I'd go with a 6 month to 12 month projection from the estimated
numbers, as most titles seem to keep their artists and writers stable
for at least 6 months. (fully expecting to see a list now of other
cases)
What is interesting is to look at those figures, then guess what John
Byrne must pull down for doing the writing/pencil/ink/letters all on
his own for 2 titles a month over the past few years. Given he is a
'name' his rates would be higher too I'd guess. Kinda helps explain
why (other than creative control) he likes to do the 'whole show'.
Also, I'd think it would be easier to write/pencil/ink/letter on one
title on your own than to write one title, pencil another, and ink a
third (assuming one has the talents to do all 3...no more comments on
Byrnes talents/lack thereof please).
Its also must be frustrating for some indie creators who do the whole
show and know (seeing these figures) they won't pull down as much as a
hack penciller will for Marvel or DC (we all know there are a few of
them). Of course, the potential is higher (should their title turn
into a Bone/Cerebus/Strangers in Paradise/ElfQuest success story) and
creative control stronger for them (at least that's what many probably
keep telling themselves when the bills come in each month). Guess its
all a trade off (plus the fact DC/Marvel won't always hire the best
talents but might go for the most reliable/convienent ones).
John Northey.
Fishnet Kid and creator of the Fans of Teri Sue Wood site.
http://terisuewood.home.ml.org
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70i8ot$n...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
: >This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very
: >few people wind up with 12 steady issues of the same book
: >per year, particularly artists. However, in many cases this
: >is offset by specials and covers and other things they do. It's
: >not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary, so extrapolations
: >seem fairly meaningless. Particularly if, say, a book is CANCELLED
: >or something?
: Well, y'know, if they'd actually do 12 steady issues of the
: comic in a row, then maybe the books wouldnt get cancelled
This is ridiculous, Rob. And yet another reason why I think a lot of pros
stay away from talking about this. There are a LOT of extenuating
circumstances surrounding why someone may not do 12 steady issues of a
comic in a row. And there's no proven correlation between a creator's
work schedule and whether their book gets cancelled.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Elayne Wechsler-Chaput schrieb in Nachricht <70iobt$h...@panix3.panix.com>...
: >Yes, well then you can't whine about not finding quality artists, right?
: >Because the quality of the art is likely to get higher as the artist gains
: >in experience, and your kind of salary is not attractive to experienced
: >artists.
: I don't think it quite got through, so I'll post it for a third time. $60
: per page is a STARTING rate for the least experienced.
It got through all three times, Adam. Apparently you misunderstood MY
point, which was not in response to your pay rates but to your despair at
not finding quality artists. So, for the third time: At the starting pay
you offer, you're not going to get a lot of quality artists. You will, of
course, attract them at higher pay rates, which you also offer. Hope
we're communicating now.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >: Well he had to assume =something= to make these projections
: My pal Elayne Wechsler-Chaput said:
: >You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
: Because he wanted to figure out what a comics writer or artist might be
: able to earn in a year. You know: ballparking income potential. That was
: kind of the =point= of the discussion.
Oh, I thought the point was to figure out average per-page rate, not to
extrapolate annual "salaries." My bad.
My response, then: You cannot extrapolate annual "salaries." There are
too many mitigating factors in a freelancer's life.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70iol1$i...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: > I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
: > hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
: > of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
: > it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
: > little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
: Some people just like playing with numbers?
Okay, my bad. But again, this points out a big reason why pros don't
often post in threads like this. It's not a game to them.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: On 20 Oct 1998 15:34:57 -0400, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: >I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
: >hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
: >of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
: >it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
: >little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
: Well, speaking as a person who extrapolates hypothetical numbers for a
: living I think its quite useful 8)
LOL! Not unless you factor in all the stuff that I mentioned that
*didn't* get factored into the original extrapolations. :)
bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
> hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
> of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
> it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
> little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
Obviously, there is no direct correlation but projections out for a full
year are no more meaningless less providing the numbers for a single
month. Your argument seems to be that the numbers that were provided
would change from month to month. If so the original numbers have no
meaning. If they were some typical numbers for any average month, then it
is certainly fair to extrapolate to 12 months for discussion purposes.
B. Martin
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70iol1$i...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: > I was just saying that I thought it pointless to even extrapolate a
: > hypothetical number to begin with. I think this is one reason why a lot
: > of pros don't answer this question when it's asked online-- they suspect
: > it's going to be taken and run with in this manner, and come out bearing
: > little resemblance to reality, so why bother?
: Obviously, there is no direct correlation but projections out for a full
: year are no more meaningless less providing the numbers for a single
: month.
Huh? Projecting actual average per-page or per-issue rates is fine; the
numbers have been provided by an industry professional right here in this
thread. But fans take those numbers and start assuming things (like 12
issues a year guaranteed) with them, and that's where you get in trouble.
GrapeApe
>numbers have been provided by an industry professional right here in >this
>thread. But fans take those numbers and start assuming things (like 12
>issues a year guaranteed) with them, and that's where you get in >trouble.
But, one could assume if one was attempting to measure a 'secure' position in
the profession, that a such an extrapolation would be a goal to shoot for. Its
called Steady Work.
I think its a bit odd that this has become such a bone of contention, one way
or another. Of course you should take variables into consideration, leaving
them out or assuming them there are not necessarily mutually exclusive options,
the ballpark has some play in it.
Adam (Revanche)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput schrieb in Nachricht <70kp9b$6...@panix3.panix.com>.
..At the starting pay you offer, you're not going to get a lot of quality
artists. You will, of course, attract them at higher pay rates, which you
also offer. Hope we're communicating now.
<<
Here in Germany there is a clear understanding of what a starting rate is
and the difference between a starting rate and the rate an experienced
illustrator (be they penciller or inker or whatever) can hope to achieve. We
have apprenticeships still where a student is taught both within the firm
and still attends school. Their wages are subsidised by the State, as is the
cost of teaching them. This will be the least experienced person (generally
17 years old, with a good level of education in the Arts in our case) who
will start for the first six months with the equivalent of $60. There is a
pay increase after six months, after one year and after two years -
depending on the length of the apprenticeship.
An experienced illustrator can, naturally, expect to start at approximately
double that for high quality work.
The problem with finding good illustrators in Germany is that the bulk of
comics are US imports´and it takes a very brave company indeed to try and
enter into a fledgling market (as ours is) against the perceived might of
Marvel, DC and that ilk. Therefore people do not learn the art of comic
illustration or gain the necessary discipline to complete works to harder
deadlines. Thus the difficulty in finding comic artists in Germany of a
higher quality.
Adam (Revanche)
Robin Riggs schrieb in Nachricht
<1dh7ym0.1of...@p82.nas1.is5.u-net.net>...
I don't know, maybe you're not getting the quality of artists that
you're looking for because you have trouble making it clear what your
rates of pay are. You certainly seem to be having problems here.
<<
I have explained the reasons for the difficulties in finding quality artists
and the German structure for employment in another post.
The reason it may not have been clear about the rates of pay we offer is
that our system in Germany is totally different to the North American
systems. When we say Start At it means at the lowest experience level, not
Everyone Starts At.
Adam (Revanche)
Justin Savage schrieb in Nachricht ...
>In article <908909408.32427@news
Whats that in dollars american? (It's hard to keep this in perspective
without knowing the currency exchange rates)
<<
At an exchange rate of 1:1,7 it comes out, with a 32 page comic, at about
$180,14 per page.
>>
I don't know how the comics market is in Germany. (Though oddly enough I
have had orders from there.) However, there are very few indies over here
that survive doing comics alone while spending their money paying employees.
<<
It takes a brave company to go into purely comics in any country in the
West - I suspect that Japan is slightly different. The bulk of the comic
publishers here tend to print US imports. We publish other items outside of
the range of comics. 'Employees' are hired on a contract for a set number of
issues with opt out clauses which is renewable at the end of the term. These
contracts are considerably more binding than US ones appear to be, and are
regulated by a publishing watchdog based in Frankfurt am Main.
In the event that there is a contractual dispute most people here are
covered by insurance anyway which pays all of their legal costs in return
for a minimal premium (I pay about US$21 per month). Contractual disputes
are also usually taken through the watchdog first, rather than the courts,
and all parties tend to abide by this free decision.
Where someone has not been paid by a company for work done they can apply to
the courts for the money to be ordered paid. All costs are borne by the
debtor, not the worker. Awards also attract interest to the benefit of
whoever is seeking payment. For a full time employee who is not paid for
three months following a set payment date the court will start bankruptcy
proceedings against the company, freezing all assets. Earnings are paid out,
in full, before any other creditors are considered.
What if someone tries to disappear? Well, everyone in Germany that is
running a business, or even living a normal, lawabiding life, is registered
with their local Rathaus (Town Hall) and a lawyer can search the records for
the entire country to find someone for the payment of a small fee (but only
a lawyer or a registered debt collection service - Inkasso).
Longwinded, I know, but hopefully a touch interesting.
Robin Riggs
Maybe that's because at the moment less than 50% of the professionals I
know have anything approaching what you would call "steady work". What
we're trying to do is point out that simply multiplying a page rate by a
theoretical number will not give you a useful number. Use the figures I
gave you to work out what you could make on an ISSUE. Never assume how
many issues you're going to be doing. Even if you are on a "regular"
book with one of the majors at the moment you have no guarantee that
it's going to be "steady work". It's a luxury that a lot of my friends
do not have at the moment.
Sorry if it doesn't fit in with a neat average worldview but that's what
freelancing is like.
-- Robin Riggs
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >Projecting actual average per-page or per-issue rates is fine; the
: >numbers have been provided by an industry professional right here in >this
: >thread. But fans take those numbers and start assuming things (like 12
: >issues a year guaranteed) with them, and that's where you get in >trouble.
: But, one could assume if one was attempting to measure a 'secure' position in
: the profession, that a such an extrapolation would be a goal to shoot for. Its
: called Steady Work.
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!
"Steady Work." Oh GrapeApe, you slay me, you really do!
*chuckle* steady work... secure position in the profession... heh...
- Elayne (not quitting her day job)
Justin Savage
<Reva...@Research.fakeaddy.com> wrote:
> >>
> Justin Savage schrieb in Nachricht ...
> >In article <908909408.32427@news
>
> Whats that in dollars american? (It's hard to keep this in perspective
> without knowing the currency exchange rates)
> <<
>
> At an exchange rate of 1:1,7 it comes out, with a 32 page comic, at about
> $180,14 per page.
$180...whats the fed ex cost to germany. Send those pencils over and we'll
have em inked up for ya by next week. Heh heh.
> I don't know how the comics market is in Germany. (Though oddly enough I
> have had orders from there.) However, there are very few indies over here
> that survive doing comics alone while spending their money paying employees.
> <<
>
> It takes a brave company to go into purely comics in any country in the
> West - I suspect that Japan is slightly different. The bulk of the comic
> publishers here tend to print US imports. We publish other items outside of
> the range of comics. 'Employees' are hired on a contract for a set number of
> issues with opt out clauses which is renewable at the end of the term. These
> contracts are considerably more binding than US ones appear to be, and are
> regulated by a publishing watchdog based in Frankfurt am Main.
>
> In the event that there is a contractual dispute most people here are
> covered by insurance anyway which pays all of their legal costs in return
> for a minimal premium (I pay about US$21 per month). Contractual disputes
> are also usually taken through the watchdog first, rather than the courts,
> and all parties tend to abide by this free decision.
The problem is that we end up with alot of companies that write these
clauses into the contracts and people desperate or nieve enough to sign
them get screwed. I don't know if people just don't read these contracts
or what. In freelance illustration as opposed to comic illustration
contracts are negotiable. Alot of the time I have to draw up my own for
the client. It works the other way in comics. They throw one at you and
most of the ones I've seen I wouldn't sign if my life depended on it. (I
haven't seen one from DC yet, but I hear theirs are less evil as long as
you watch out for that "on publication" clause.
Justin Savage
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> GrapeApe (grap...@aol.com) wrote:
> : >Projecting actual average per-page or per-issue rates is fine; the
> : >numbers have been provided by an industry professional right here in >this
> : >thread. But fans take those numbers and start assuming things (like 12
> : >issues a year guaranteed) with them, and that's where you get in >trouble.
>
> : But, one could assume if one was attempting to measure a 'secure'
position in
> : the profession, that a such an extrapolation would be a goal to shoot
for. Its
> : called Steady Work.
>
> BWAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!
>
> "Steady Work." Oh GrapeApe, you slay me, you really do!
>
> *chuckle* steady work... secure position in the profession... heh...
>
> - Elayne (not quitting her day job)
ummm....I think that about sums that one up.
Anybody in the mood yet for the "horror stories" thread yet?
Mikko Aittola
What's wrong with you guys?
Someone posts here a example of page rate. Then some
people count 12*22*page_rate. And suddenly people are
screaming that it's a BAD THING to multiply page rate with
the figure 264.
I don't understand.
Don't the creators do this too?
Nobody's said the figure you get from that calculation is *the* correct
way to estimate annual salaries. But's it's *certainly* a one way
to do that.
Yes, series get canceled, creators get sick and fill-in people
are often needed. But then again, some people are able to
produce 2*12*22*page_rate or whatever. So 264 is as good figure
as any.
It's perfectly valid to think "Hmmm...what would I make IF".
There's nothing wrong with that.
/Mikko
Mikko Aittola
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
> But fans take those numbers and start assuming things (like 12
> issues a year guaranteed) with them, and that's where you get in trouble.
Who has started assuming that here? Who did mention the word
"guaranteed" before you?
Haven't noticed. Have noticed someone posting a hypothetical
example what one COULD get IF. . .
/Mikko
GrapeApe
>know have anything approaching what you would call "steady work"
I beleive that is understood as well.
I was commenting on the apparent inability of people to hold "ideal
circumstances" and "reality" abstractly in their head simultaneously. Any one
who takes a rough rule of thumb as the religious truth is merely too lazy to
think out things for themselves. Blind Optimism and limiting pessimism are two
extremes any should consider going into a profession- there are no guarantees
for sucess or failure. Subjective and objective views can be simultaneosly
held, it is just importnat that they are not confused for one another.
Robin Riggs
> The problem is that we end up with alot of companies that write these
> clauses into the contracts and people desperate or nieve enough to sign
> them get screwed. I don't know if people just don't read these contracts
> or what. In freelance illustration as opposed to comic illustration
> contracts are negotiable. Alot of the time I have to draw up my own for
> the client. It works the other way in comics. They throw one at you and
> most of the ones I've seen I wouldn't sign if my life depended on it. (I
> haven't seen one from DC yet, but I hear theirs are less evil as long as
> you watch out for that "on publication" clause.
Are you talking about the freelaencer invoices or actual contracts? Most
freelancers don't work under contracts and just invoice when the job is
complete. I just looked at a regular DC invoice to refresh my memory and
I could see no "on publication" clause. DC are very prompt payers most
of the time.
--
Robin Riggs
Justin Savage
robin...@soulmate.u-net.com (Robin Riggs) wrote:
> Are you talking about the freelaencer invoices or actual contracts?
Actual contracts.
Most
> freelancers don't work under contracts and just invoice when the job is
> complete.
Yeah, that's how it works at this T-Shirt place I do work for
occaisionally. But they don't have a real set schedule for anything. The
on publication clause is generally found in contracts for whole books. I
was just reading somewhere last week (I think it was a post by Steve
Bissette on the comicon.com ye olde message board) about a DC contract
that had a "On Publication" clause. They tend to be used more by smaller
publishers who print other people's work. Like I said I haven't actually
seen a DC contract and by no means am I stating that DC is bad to work
for.
So, on inking jobs DC doesn't have a contract stating when they expect the
work and how much they are paying for it? That's something I didn't know.
I'd expect them to, for self protection if nothing else, the same goes for
the freelancers working for them. A final invoice is standard in all
freelancing, though.
I just looked at a regular DC invoice to refresh my memory and
> I could see no "on publication" clause. DC are very prompt payers most
> of the time.
That's a good thing. Like I said, I heard they were less evil. I guess it
might be better to say that they tend to be more straight forward in
business.
The Great and Powerful Danny Sichel
> > >And this cheap-ass joystick of yours doesn't go left
> > >anymore. You owe, Dwayne, you owe me!
> > You're telling me my joystick's broke? That's what *she* said...
> I think we have the start of a country/western song here:
> "She left me and took my Nintendo 64;
> Now my joystick's got no joy no more..."
> --Nat (running Lara Croft around in little clockwise circles)
That's an interesting euphemism...
JohannaLD
>So, on inking jobs DC doesn't have a contract stating when they expect the
>work and how much they are paying for it?
Some of the confusion here might be due to DC recently changing
its contract policy. As I understand it, they used to offer one-year
contracts to regular creators, but they've eliminated those, replacing
some of them with exclusive contracts.
Johanna
Leonard Kirk
JohannaLD wrote in message <19981022120912...@ng78.aol.com>...
Yup. The "continuity contracts" were phased out (these were the "one-year"
deals you mentioned, although, I wouldn't be surprised if some folks managed
to negotiate for two and three year deals).
DC has offered some of the freelancers exclusive contracts and will
certainly hand out more such contracts in the future. The rest of us (which
I imagine is the majority) now work on a month by month basis, submittling
invoices at the end of each project.
However, this does not have to be as scary as it souds. Some of us manage to
get along very well with DC and vice versa. So, it's not LIKELY that we're
all going to be just tossed out on the street at any time. Of course, wth no
contracts, that POSSIBILITY does exist. Which is one of the reasons why you
see some freelancers taking on work with more than one publisher.
Also, on the subject of contracts, while I no longer have a contract with DC
for drawing Supergirl, the invoices are very well detailed. Especially when
compared to other companies like Marvel. Hell, Marvel invoices are about the
size of a single square of toilet paper. The DC invoices are a full page,
with material on the front AND back, partially filled out in triplicate and
signed in duplicate.
LJK
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: What's wrong with you guys?
: Someone posts here a example of page rate. Then some
: people count 12*22*page_rate. And suddenly people are
: screaming that it's a BAD THING to multiply page rate with
: the figure 264.
Nobody's screaming, Mikko. I'm pointing out that you can't multiply
because it doesn't fit reality, that there are always mitigating factors.
: I don't understand.
: Don't the creators do this too?
Well, yes, but they factor in all the stuff that the fans don't know
about, because the fans don't make a living doing this stuff.
- Elayne
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
: > But fans take those numbers and start assuming things (like 12
: > issues a year guaranteed) with them, and that's where you get in trouble.
: Who has started assuming that here?
Whoever posted the extrapolation. In freelancing, you can assume NOTHING,
Mikko. It's that precarious a way to make a living.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >From: savages...@sabresedge.com (Justin Savage)
: >>So, on inking jobs DC doesn't have a contract stating when they expect the
: >>work and how much they are paying for it?
: >
: >Some of the confusion here might be due to DC recently changing
: >its contract policy. As I understand it, they used to offer one-year
: >contracts to regular creators, but they've eliminated those, replacing
: >some of them with exclusive contracts.
: Yup. The "continuity contracts" were phased out (these were the "one-year"
: deals you mentioned, although, I wouldn't be surprised if some folks managed
: to negotiate for two and three year deals).
: DC has offered some of the freelancers exclusive contracts and will
: certainly hand out more such contracts in the future. The rest of us (which
: I imagine is the majority) now work on a month by month basis, submittling
: invoices at the end of each project.
And, I should add, this is not just inkers, but writers, pencillers,
pretty much all creative folks not on staff.
: However, this does not have to be as scary as it souds. Some of us manage to
: get along very well with DC and vice versa. So, it's not LIKELY that we're
: all going to be just tossed out on the street at any time. Of course, wth no
: contracts, that POSSIBILITY does exist.
And the PROBABILITY exists that you don't be doing 12 issues per year even
*with* a "steady" freelancing position because, let's face it, stuff
happens. And in a freelancer's life, when stuff comes up you can't just
"call in sick," you pretty much wind up taking a loss, which you work to
offset in other ways.
: Which is one of the reasons why you
: see some freelancers taking on work with more than one publisher.
Just so.
David W. Stepp
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
To answer the question?
> This is just not how things work when you freelance. Very few people wind
> up with 12 steady issues of the same book per year, particularly artists.
> However, in many cases this is offset by specials and covers and other
> things they do. It's not like (pardon the pun) drawing a regular salary,
> so extrapolations seem fairly meaningless. Particularly if, say, a book
> is CANCELLED or something?
The question was what kind of income can one expect in the industry
should someone (say like yourself) want to do that for a living. Riggs
provided some figures which may or may not be imaginary and Jason did the
logical thing. If you can get steady work and Riggs numbers are valid, you
can expect to make somewhere in the average range of American incomes.
Obviously, demand players make more than second-stringers but it's a more
than fair, indeed a critical question to get some idea of what one can
live on while one tries one's hand.
You need not feel threatened by this question because I doubt it will
ever pertain to you.
D.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70i8ot$n...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: > You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
: To answer the question?
As I pointed out many times in this thread, the question can't be
answered, not in terms of salary. it can only be answered on a per-page
or per-issue basis.
: You need not feel threatened by this question because I doubt it will
: ever pertain to you.
Why was this necessary, David? Why are you so rude? Honestly, it won't
break you to be nice to people.
Delcomico
>I always wondered, about how much money do comic artists make? I realize
>there
>must be a wide range but I have no idea what it may be. Considering how much
>of a slump the industry is in, how profitable is it?
>Just wondering.
>
>
WAIT A MINUTE---you mean to say there
are comic-book artists out there who get PAID...??
Kevin Tuma
David W. Stepp
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> David W. Stepp (dst...@post.its.mcw.edu.NOSPAM) wrote:
> : In article <70i8ot$n...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> : Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>
> : > You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
>
> : To answer the question?
>
> As I pointed out many times in this thread, the question can't be
> answered, not in terms of salary. it can only be answered on a per-page
> or per-issue basis.
As I have pointed out many times, you don't know what you're talking
about. I suspect it has to do with being shorted a few cards of the deck
but you can make whatever explanation you like. Salary issues, in any
venue, are a complex issue. They are not an unfathomable issue. The fact
that you cannot understand multi-variable situations in no way indicates
that anyone else can't. Please don't burden others with your own
prodigious limitations.
> Why was this necessary, David? Why are you so rude? Honestly, it won't
> break you to be nice to people.
Because you deserve it? Because you have worked long and hard to
de-rail a thread in which a reasonable question was asked and data
evaluated? Because you seem compelled to de-mean any critical look at the
industry you so desperately want to be a part of? Because you are the most
blatant obstructionist in these parts? Seriously, if you don't have
anything to fear from a thread, you need not involve yourself in it.
D.
Nat Gertler
>
> As I have pointed out many times, you don't know what you're talking
> about.
Of course, you pointing it out doesn't mean it's true.
> I suspect it has to do with being shorted a few cards of the deck
> but you can make whatever explanation you like.
Logic fails; the uncalled-for attack is resorted to.
> Salary issues, in any
> venue, are a complex issue.
But we're not talking about salaries here. We're talking about page
rates. So much for worrying about whether you know what you're
talking about...
> Because you deserve it? Because you have worked long and hard to
> de-rail a thread in which a reasonable question was asked and data
> evaluated? Because you seem compelled to de-mean any critical look at the
> industry you so desperately want to be a part of? Because you are the most
> blatant obstructionist in these parts?
Golly gee, did Elayne point out in a "what can an artist expect
to make" discussion that he shouldn't expect to have a fixed
amount of work per month, month in, month out? Well, that is
the reality of the business. If you don't like reality, feel free
to move elsewhere.
> Seriously, if you don't have
> anything to fear from a thread, you need not involve yourself in it.
And what quaking phobia brought you into the discussion?
Dale Hicks
> David W. Stepp wrote:
> > Salary issues, in any
> > venue, are a complex issue.
>
> But we're not talking about salaries here. We're talking about page
> rates. So much for worrying about whether you know what you're
> talking about...
While not being able to justify the venom in his attack, I feel
compelled to point out the title is "comic artist salaries."
And I wondered, too :)
> Golly gee, did Elayne point out in a "what can an artist expect
> to make" discussion that he shouldn't expect to have a fixed
> amount of work per month, month in, month out? Well, that is
> the reality of the business. If you don't like reality, feel free
> to move elsewhere.
On this, I'm curious as to the reasons that artists don't supply
twelve issues (or a comparable amount of work on covers and different
sized issues) a year. I always assumed that it was a "slow artist"
(which doesn't place any judgements, as Hughes' work is beautiful,
but I understand that he's not a monthly guy).
Are there other reasons? I assume a week with the flu could be
absorbed into the schedule (don't most people take about three
weeks to pencil a book?). I suppose inkers and writers, doing
multiple books, would be hit harder.
Does the company ever impose a "skip issue?" I always assumed
fill-ins were a function of the artist, not the company.
--
Jean-Claude Brain dhi...@gibralter.net
Nat Gertler
>
> Nat Gertler <n...@gertler.com> wrote in article <362FCC4E...@gertler.com>...
> > David W. Stepp wrote:
>
> > > Salary issues, in any
> > > venue, are a complex issue.
> >
> > But we're not talking about salaries here. We're talking about page
> > rates. So much for worrying about whether you know what you're
> > talking about...
>
> While not being able to justify the venom in his attack, I feel
> compelled to point out the title is "comic artist salaries."
And the answer is "generally, they don't get salaries". Easy 'nuff.
> On this, I'm curious as to the reasons that artists don't supply
> twelve issues (or a comparable amount of work on covers and different
> sized issues) a year. I always assumed that it was a "slow artist"
> (which doesn't place any judgements, as Hughes' work is beautiful,
> but I understand that he's not a monthly guy).
>
> Are there other reasons? I assume a week with the flu could be
> absorbed into the schedule (don't most people take about three
> weeks to pencil a book?). I suppose inkers and writers, doing
> multiple books, would be hit harder.
>
> Does the company ever impose a "skip issue?" I always assumed
> fill-ins were a function of the artist, not the company.
There are all sorts of reasons why you'll see an artist not
doing all 12 issues. The writer could be late, so they may
fall back on an already-created file story. Or the company
may decide to reduce their file inventory, and thus dump
the story into the book. Or the editor may want to use a
specific artist for a specific issue for any of a number of
reasons: the issue may have special needs, or the artist
may be the editor's friend, or the publisher may have a
pay-or-playesque contract with an artist and there may be
no other script ready for him, or there may be some reason
to accelerate production of later issues. And those are
just examples of situations I've heard of in individual
cases (although the "friend of the editor" has been
described more as an accusation than something I'll
assume to be a fair description...); I wouldn't rule out
there being other reasons.
GrapeApe
>Someone posts here a example of page rate. Then some
>people count 12*22*page_rate. And suddenly people are
>screaming that it's a BAD THING to multiply page rate with
>the figure 264.
>I don't understand.
Its called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
...typified by personalities that like to hoard and must filter everything
through the all or nothing black and white only world filter of humorless
literalism.
GrapeApe
>[joystick] That's an interesting euphemism...
It was even more interesting when Lou Reed used it.
Robin Riggs
> While not being able to justify the venom in his attack, I feel
> compelled to point out the title is "comic artist salaries."
> And I wondered, too :)
Then the answer is VERY simple: artists are freelancers and are not paid
a salary.
> > Golly gee, did Elayne point out in a "what can an artist expect
> > to make" discussion that he shouldn't expect to have a fixed
> > amount of work per month, month in, month out? Well, that is
> > the reality of the business. If you don't like reality, feel free
> > to move elsewhere.
>
> On this, I'm curious as to the reasons that artists don't supply
> twelve issues (or a comparable amount of work on covers and different
> sized issues) a year. I always assumed that it was a "slow artist"
> (which doesn't place any judgements, as Hughes' work is beautiful,
> but I understand that he's not a monthly guy).
>
> Are there other reasons?
Many and varied and mostly none of your business.
> I assume a week with the flu could be
> absorbed into the schedule
No. You lose time though illness, you don't earn any money.
> (don't most people take about three
> weeks to pencil a book?).
No, most take 5-6 weeks to pencil a book. Not too convenient on a 4 week
schedule.
> I suppose inkers and writers, doing
> multiple books, would be hit harder.
No, just about everyone is working flat out, doing as much as they can
> Does the company ever impose a "skip issue?" I always assumed
> fill-ins were a function of the artist, not the company.
Of course they do. The artist can ASK for a month off but that generally
means a month without pay.
You seem to be making an awful lot of inacurate assumptions about how
others make their livings and getting indignant when people who know
better point out that your idealizations are wildly inaccurate.
--
Robin Riggs
Robin Riggs
No. It's called keeping in touch with reality. If you had no interest in
how the figures would apply to reality then why the fuck did you ask for
them in the first place? If you just want to play number games you might
as well make up the numbers in the first place. They'll have just as
much valisity as the "salaries" that are being talked about here.
I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't so bloody smug about your
ignorance.
--
Robin Riggs
djp...@bbn.com
robin...@soulmate.u-net.com (Robin Riggs) wrote:
> Dale Hicks <icono...@mail1.surfnet1NATASEVOLI.net> wrote:
>
> > While not being able to justify the venom in his attack, I feel
> > compelled to point out the title is "comic artist salaries."
> > And I wondered, too :)
>
> Then the answer is VERY simple: artists are freelancers and are not paid
> a salary.
>
That's good. End of thread.
> > On this, I'm curious as to the reasons that artists don't supply
> > twelve issues (or a comparable amount of work on covers and different
> > sized issues) a year. I always assumed that it was a "slow artist"
> > (which doesn't place any judgements, as Hughes' work is beautiful,
> > but I understand that he's not a monthly guy).
> >
> > Are there other reasons?
>
> Many and varied and mostly none of your business.
>
That was helpful. Dale != David, you know.
> > I assume a week with the flu could be
> > absorbed into the schedule
>
> No. You lose time though illness, you don't earn any money.
>
> > (don't most people take about three
> > weeks to pencil a book?).
>
> No, most take 5-6 weeks to pencil a book. Not too convenient on a 4 week
> schedule.
>
> > I suppose inkers and writers, doing
> > multiple books, would be hit harder.
>
> No, just about everyone is working flat out, doing as much as they can
>
> > Does the company ever impose a "skip issue?" I always assumed
> > fill-ins were a function of the artist, not the company.
>
> Of course they do. The artist can ASK for a month off but that generally
> means a month without pay.
>
> You seem to be making an awful lot of inacurate assumptions about how
> others make their livings and getting indignant when people who know
> better point out that your idealizations are wildly inaccurate.
>
No, he isn't. He's stating what he thinks happens in the comics industry and
asking whether he's accurate or inaccurate. You're jumping all over him like
he insulted you. Dale Hicks != David Stepp. If you're going to snap at
someone, make sure you snap at the right person.
deX!
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bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu
> And the answer is "generally, they don't get salaries". Easy 'nuff.
This is an answer if you prefer arguments about semantics. The choice of
the word doesn't make this discussion any different.
B. Martin
Robin Riggs
There are no semantics involved here. Freelancers do NOT get salaries.
If they did, they would not be working freelance. Is the concept
difficult for you?
-- Robin Riggs
David W. Stepp
bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
> This is an answer if you prefer arguments about semantics. The choice of
> the word doesn't make this discussion any different.
Thank you, B. I never cease to be impressed at people's obfuscation of
an issue. The original question was a query about income in the field, not
an invitation to engage in a verbal masturbation that doesn't produce
information. If one needed that, one could watch the Clinton testimony.
From what I have seen parlayed, there are obviously multiple venues of
income in the field including page rates, special deals, royalties, etc.
However, it's also pretty evident that unless you are coming with an
established set-up, you will work for page-rate with minimal else. It also
seems evident, at least from DC, that if they start a series with a newbie
like Len Kaminski, Dan Johnson or what have you, they will let it run at
least 6 months. One can at least then watch sales numbers on Matt's
sheets, read online fora etc and get some idea of how you're doing. You'd
have to be pretty naive to walk into work after 3 months of flagging sales
and be surprised you have no job. Sure things are more volatile in smaller
companies but that's true everywhere.
To those who keep trying to obstruct this discussion, please shut up.
Every career counseling session I have ever been involved in usually
started out with the same question "How much money can I make as an X"?
It's a fair question and in every field, the answer can be complex. As a
scientist, you can make as little as 20K a year (assuming you have a job
at all) or you can pull down 7 figures. The determinants are complex but
the question is not unanswerable. Pros in the comics field have different
criteria but not special ones. Everyone runs the risk of being down-sized,
laid off and not being able to find work and understands that. I think it
would be appreciated by most discussants if the guilty parties would give
the discussants that much credit anyway.
D.
tsunami_tal
>
>David W. Stepp (dst...@post.its.mcw.edu.NOSPAM) wrote:
>: In article <70i8ot$n...@panix3.panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
>: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>
>: > You lost me. Why did he have to make these projections?
>
>: To answer the question?
>
>As I pointed out many times in this thread, the question can't be
>answered, not in terms of salary. it can only be answered on a per-page
>or per-issue basis.
Artists make money from January to December. And yes, it is possible to
guesstimate an average salary range based on the supplied page rates, no matter
what the opinions from the Royal Court.
>: You need not feel threatened by this question because I doubt it will
>: ever pertain to you.
>
>Why was this necessary, David? Why are you so rude? Honestly, it won't
>break you to be nice to people.
I just gotta know this...does Elayne read Cerebus, or does Dave read this
newsgroup? This is just too damn scripted! ;)
Talon T M