The best of each type of character...

[Duggy]

There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
contenders for that.)
I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.

Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.

I'm going to give a few obvious types, but add more if you want...

- Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
Captain Marvel, many clear copies.
- Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
mutations, experiments, powers): Batman, The Phantom, etc.
- Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.
- Demi-god (Super-human strength): Captain America, original
Superman.
- Gadget guy: Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...

===
= DUG.
===

[William George Ferguson]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 06:04:42 -0700 (PDT), Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au>
wrote:

>There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
>over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
>contenders for that.)
>I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
>or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
>see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
>who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
>
>Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.
>
>I'm going to give a few obvious types, but add more if you want...
>
> - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
>Captain Marvel, many clear copies.

Thunderbunny! Okay, maybe not.

> - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness .

>mutations, experiments, powers): Batman, The Phantom, etc.

This should actually be 'Normal Human'. Over most of his career, Batman
has just been an extremely well trained, conditioned, and dedicated human.
If written properly, he should never be able to defeat an 'ultimate human
type' through sheer physical ability, rather through skill, training, and
planning.

> - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.

Perhaps differentiate between 'high tech user' and 'gadgeteer'. Jim
Rhodes-Iron Man is in the first category and Tony Stark-Iron Man is in the
second.

> - Demi-god (Super-human strength): Captain America, original
>Superman.

Captain America, by definition, does not have superhuman strength.
Throughout his entire career, going back to the Timely original, he is
described as being at the peak of human (fill in the blank).

Another example of 'Peak Human', which perhaps better indicates the
difference, is Cassandra Cain-Batgirl. One of the DC stories described her
as, each of her abilities, by itself, falls within, though at the high end
of, human capability, but when viewed collectively, her abilities are
superhuman. The same could be said of Captain America, but not most Batman
clones including Bats himself

In your 'Demi-god' category would be Luke Cage, among others. At the upper
end, you have the Hulk


And then, there's the actual gods, whose abilities may include, but aren't
limited to super-strength

> - Gadget guy: Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...

Shrinker: Atom

Grower: Colossal Kid (ok, technically he's a giant who can shring, but
still)

Both: Hank Pym, Rita Farr

And you need to include a 'Magic-user' category (Dr. Strange, Zatanna, and
so forth)
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies

[grinningdemon]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:39:04 -0700, William George Ferguson
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 06:04:42 -0700 (PDT), Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au>
>wrote:
>
>>There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
>>over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
>>contenders for that.)
>>I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
>>or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
>>see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
>>who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
>>
>>Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.
>>
>>I'm going to give a few obvious types, but add more if you want...
>>
>> - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
>>Captain Marvel, many clear copies.
>
>Thunderbunny! Okay, maybe not.
>
>> - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness .
>>mutations, experiments, powers): Batman, The Phantom, etc.
>
>This should actually be 'Normal Human'. Over most of his career, Batman
>has just been an extremely well trained, conditioned, and dedicated human.
>If written properly, he should never be able to defeat an 'ultimate human
>type' through sheer physical ability, rather through skill, training, and
>planning.

I'd say Ultimate Human fits...Peak Human could work...but there is
nothing "normal" about Batman.

>> - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.
>
>Perhaps differentiate between 'high tech user' and 'gadgeteer'. Jim
>Rhodes-Iron Man is in the first category and Tony Stark-Iron Man is in the
>second.
>
>> - Demi-god (Super-human strength): Captain America, original
>>Superman.
>
>Captain America, by definition, does not have superhuman strength.
>Throughout his entire career, going back to the Timely original, he is
>described as being at the peak of human (fill in the blank).

He did have super strength briefly once (see Avengers Forever).

>Another example of 'Peak Human', which perhaps better indicates the
>difference, is Cassandra Cain-Batgirl. One of the DC stories described her
>as, each of her abilities, by itself, falls within, though at the high end
>of, human capability, but when viewed collectively, her abilities are
>superhuman. The same could be said of Captain America, but not most Batman
>clones including Bats himself

Cap isn't superhuman in any way...he's peak or ultimate human...he
just took a different route to get there than Batman...same goes for
Cassadra Cain (which is why her abilities don't work right on
superhumans).

[grinningdemon]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 06:04:42 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
>over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
>contenders for that.)
>I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
>or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
>see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
>who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
>
>Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.
>
>I'm going to give a few obvious types, but add more if you want...
>
> - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
>Captain Marvel, many clear copies.

Over the years, I've become rather partial to
Majestic...superficially, a blatant Superman knockoff with virtually
the same looks and powers...but a very different personality...a
warrior rather than hero...who is thousands of years old...this
difference was best illustrated in the DnA Majestic mini and ongoing
where he visited the DCU and everyone mistook him for Superman.

Honorable mention goes to Invincible...my fav superhero book in a long
time.

> - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
>mutations, experiments, powers): Batman, The Phantom, etc.

It doesn't get any better than Batman...with his unofficial superpower
of always finding a way to win...and all the coolest villains and
toys.

> - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.

I'm having a hard time thinking of one of these characters I actually
like.

Maybe the movie version of Iron Man...they fixed my biggest problem
with Iron Man by giving him an actual heroic motivation in wanting to
make up for all the damage the weapons he designed had done.

> - Demi-god (Super-human strength): Captain America, original
>Superman.

Spiderman (assuming he fits this category)...but the real one...not
the bastardized version Marvel publishes now...oh, and put him back in
the black costume (it always looked cooler than the original).

Oh, and I wouldn't call Cap a demi-god either.

> - Gadget guy: Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...

I'm gonna go with that little Asian kid from The Goonies...I really
love that movie.

Seriously, though...Jack Knight/Starman would be my favorite in this
category...one of the most interesting modern characters with ties the
past and a very cool looking cosmic rod...I never really thought of
him as a gadget guy but I guess he is when it comes down to it.

[Zeb Carter]

Looking over this thread, I see no mention of certain X-Men. I am
thinking of either Cable or Forge but not sure what category they belong
in. For the tech handlers/inventors, don't forget Reed Richards.

As for gods, it's a toss up between the Marvel pantheons (Greek/Roman)
or the DC versions.The Dc versions seem a bit more blood thirsty than
Marvel but that's not to say the marvel versions can't be either. Have
we ever seen the DC equivalent of Marvel's Norse gods?

Vison or Red Tornado or Wonderman?

[grinningdemon]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 17:16:17 -0500, Zeb Carter <zeb_c...@ymail.com>
wrote:

We could make up endless categories...many of which (including some
already listed) would overlap...but it would be difficult to create
SPECIFIC categories to cover everyone without being very vague and
general.

[Pat O'Neill]

On Oct 23, 9:04 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
> over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
> contenders for that.)
> I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
> or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
> see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
> who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
>
> Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.
>
> I'm going to give a few obvious types, but add more if you want...
>
>  - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
> Captain Marvel, many clear copies.

Superman is still the best in this category; anybody else is just a
weak copy.

>  - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
> mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.

I'd put Captain America here, not with the demi-gods...and likely
count him as the best

>  - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.

I dunno if this is a whole category, since there are only a few
examples. I might create a category that includes these guys but also
the specialized weapon/equipment types--Green Lantern, Hawkman,
Starman

>  - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
> Superman.

I'd define these as more those with mythological origins--Thor,
Hercules, Wonder Woman, maybe even the Marvel Family

>  - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...

BB is definitely a gadget guy...but the other two?

How about magicians/sorcerors? Those with animal powers? Those with
only one power--like Flash or Cyclops or Iceman?

[Duggy]

On Oct 24, 6:39 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
wrote:

> > - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
> >Captain Marvel, many clear copies.
> Thunderbunny!  Okay, maybe not.

Fair enough.

> > - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness .
> >mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.
> This should actually be 'Normal Human'.

Batman isn't normal.

>  Over most of his career, Batman
> has just been an extremely well trained, conditioned, and dedicated human.

Yes. The ultimate human.

> If written properly, he should never be able to defeat an 'ultimate human
> type' through sheer physical ability, rather through skill, training, and
> planning.

Huh?

> > - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.
> Perhaps differentiate between 'high tech user' and 'gadgeteer'.  Jim
> Rhodes-Iron Man is in the first category and Tony Stark-Iron Man is in the
> second.

Tony Stark is in both.

> > - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
> >Superman.
> Captain America, by definition, does not have superhuman strength.

Sorry. Throw him in the ultimate human pile then.

> In your 'Demi-god' category would be Luke Cage, among others.  At the upper
> end, you have the Hulk

Yes, Hulk is the extreme.

> And then, there's the actual gods, whose abilities may include, but aren't
> limited to super-strength

Not them.

> > - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...


> Shrinker: Atom

Good call.

> Grower: Colossal Kid (ok, technically he's a giant who can shring, but
> still)
> Both: Hank Pym, Rita Farr

Good call.

> And you need to include a 'Magic-user' category (Dr. Strange, Zatanna, and
> so forth)

I was going to include "magic user" but then I would separate "spell
caster" and others, but that was getting too messy (see ultimate
human).

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Oct 24, 7:16 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:39:04 -0700, William George Ferguson

> <wmgfr...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 06:04:42 -0700 (PDT), Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au>
> >wrote:

> I'd say Ultimate Human fits...Peak Human could work...but there is
> nothing "normal" about Batman.

I agree. I'll accept Peak Human if it stops confusion.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Oct 24, 7:39 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> > - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
> >Captain Marvel, many clear copies.

> Over the years, I've become rather partial to
> Majestic...superficially, a blatant Superman knockoff with virtually
> the same looks and powers...

Most examples in this category will be. But if they get past that
it's worth noting...

> but a very different personality...a
> warrior rather than hero...who is thousands of years old...this
> difference was best illustrated in the DnA Majestic mini and ongoing
> where he visited the DCU and everyone mistook him for Superman.

DnA... nah, I don't think I'll bother.

joking.

Sounds interesting.

> Honorable mention goes to Invincible...my fav superhero book in a long
> time.

Cool.

> > - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
> >mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.
> It doesn't get any better than Batman...with his unofficial superpower
> of always finding a way to win...and all the coolest villains and
> toys.

True.

> > - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.
> I'm having a hard time thinking of one of these characters I actually
> like.

> Maybe the movie version of Iron Man...they fixed my biggest problem
> with Iron Man by giving him an actual heroic motivation in wanting to
> make up for all the damage the weapons he designed had done.

This one appears in TV & movies more often than some of the others...
maybe there's one there you like. Bad example: MANTIS.

> > - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
> >Superman.

> Spiderman (assuming he fits this category)...

I wouldn't say so.

Not sure which category he fits though.

> but the real one...not
> the bastardized version Marvel publishes now...oh, and put him back in
> the black costume (it always looked cooler than the original).

Fair enough.

> Oh, and I wouldn't call Cap a demi-god either.

OK, I stuff up on that one.

> > - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...
> I'm gonna go with that little Asian kid from The Goonies...I really
> love that movie.

OK.

> Seriously, though...Jack Knight/Starman would be my favorite in this
> category...one of the most interesting modern characters with ties the
> past and a very cool looking cosmic rod...I never really thought of
> him as a gadget guy but I guess he is when it comes down to it.

True I guess.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 22:09:14 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>On Oct 24, 7:39 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> > - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
>> >Captain Marvel, many clear copies.
>
>> Over the years, I've become rather partial to
>> Majestic...superficially, a blatant Superman knockoff with virtually
>> the same looks and powers...
>
>Most examples in this category will be. But if they get past that
>it's worth noting...
>
>> but a very different personality...a
>> warrior rather than hero...who is thousands of years old...this
>> difference was best illustrated in the DnA Majestic mini and ongoing
>> where he visited the DCU and everyone mistook him for Superman.
>
>DnA... nah, I don't think I'll bother.

Yeah, I thought you'd like that.

>joking.
>
>Sounds interesting.

It was a great run...actually started off with a little fill-in arc
DnA did on the Superman titles where Supes goes missing in an
interdimensional rift and out pops Majestic who has to stand in for
him...then comes the Majestic mini set in the DC universe followed by
the ongoing where he goes back to Wildstorm acting more like a
superhero because of his time in the DCU...they also did a good job
picking up on threads left over from earlier writers and the book was
fairly light-hearted by Wildstorm standards.

>> Honorable mention goes to Invincible...my fav superhero book in a long
>> time.
>
>Cool.
>
>> > - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
>> >mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.
>> It doesn't get any better than Batman...with his unofficial superpower
>> of always finding a way to win...and all the coolest villains and
>> toys.
>
>True.
>
>> > - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.
>> I'm having a hard time thinking of one of these characters I actually
>> like.
>
>> Maybe the movie version of Iron Man...they fixed my biggest problem
>> with Iron Man by giving him an actual heroic motivation in wanting to
>> make up for all the damage the weapons he designed had done.
>
>This one appears in TV & movies more often than some of the others...
>maybe there's one there you like. Bad example: MANTIS.

There are a lot of examples of this type...just not a lot of high
profile ones like Iron Man...and not a lot of GOOD examples.

Maybe I'll go with a more obscure variation and choose Reed Richards
from when he got stuck in Dr. Doom's armor for a while and was
basically possessed by Doom because he had to think like him to
operate the armor.

>> > - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
>> >Superman.
>
>> Spiderman (assuming he fits this category)...
>
>I wouldn't say so.
>
>Not sure which category he fits though.

I'm not sure demi-god is a very good category (though I'm not sure
what I'd replace it with)...personally, I think I'd have gone with an
urban vigilante (basically steet level) category...possibly instead of
Ultimate Human...this would include Spidey, Batman (and family),
Daredevil, GA, etc...but, like I said in an earlier post, there are
any number of ways to break it down and no good way to cover everyone.

>> but the real one...not
>> the bastardized version Marvel publishes now...oh, and put him back in
>> the black costume (it always looked cooler than the original).
>
>Fair enough.
>
>> Oh, and I wouldn't call Cap a demi-god either.
>
>OK, I stuff up on that one.
>
>> > - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...
>> I'm gonna go with that little Asian kid from The Goonies...I really
>> love that movie.
>
>OK.
>
>> Seriously, though...Jack Knight/Starman would be my favorite in this
>> category...one of the most interesting modern characters with ties the
>> past and a very cool looking cosmic rod...I never really thought of
>> him as a gadget guy but I guess he is when it comes down to it.
>
>True I guess.

Just of a better fit for this category...Kate
Spencer(?)/Manhunter...using confiscated supervillain tech to kick
some ass.

[Duggy]

On Oct 24, 11:28 am, "Pat O'Neill" <patdone...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >  - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.

> I dunno if this is a whole category, since there are only a few
> examples.

Iron Man, War Machine, Hardware, Steel, STRIPE, Jean Paul Valley's
Batman, Rocket Reds, Team Luthor (including heroic Lex).
On TV Mantis (and I think, a go-to villain for shows that want
powerful without powers).
It's a temp thing for a lot of heroes when powerless or injuried or in
the future, etc.
Batman, Superman, Booster Gold, every member of the JLA to sell toys,

> I might create a category that includes these guys but also
> the specialized weapon/equipment types--Green Lantern, Hawkman,
> Starman

Hmm.. all of those are cosmic/magic items.

I think Weapon User (Archer) needs to be considered.

> >  - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
> > Superman.

> I'd define these as more those with mythological origins--Thor,
> Hercules, Wonder Woman, maybe even the Marvel Family

They'd be myth-based.

> >  - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...
> BB is definitely a gadget guy...but the other two?

Really Batman and Iron Man don't have gadgets?

> How about magicians/sorcerors?

See other post.

> Those with animal powers?

Good call.

> Those with only one power--like Flash or Cyclops or Iceman?

Oh:

Speedsters.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Oct 24, 3:41 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> It was a great run...actually started off with a little fill-in arc
> DnA did on the Superman titles where Supes goes missing in an
> interdimensional rift and out pops Majestic who has to stand in for
> him...then comes the Majestic mini set in the DC universe followed by
> the ongoing where he goes back to Wildstorm acting more like a
> superhero because of his time in the DCU...they also did a good job
> picking up on threads left over from earlier writers and the book was
> fairly light-hearted by Wildstorm standards.

I remember the period now. May give it a look.

> >This one appears in TV & movies more often than some of the others...
> >maybe there's one there you like.  Bad example: MANTIS.

> There are a lot of examples of this type...just not a lot of high
> profile ones like Iron Man...and not a lot of GOOD examples.

Agreed.

> Maybe I'll go with a more obscure variation and choose Reed Richards
> from when he got stuck in Dr. Doom's armor for a while and was
> basically possessed by Doom because he had to think like him to
> operate the armor.

OK.

> I'm not sure demi-god is a very good category (though I'm not sure
> what I'd replace it with)...

OK. Super Strong... to wide...

> personally, I think I'd have gone with an
> urban vigilante (basically steet level) category...

Agreed.

> possibly instead of
> Ultimate Human...this would include Spidey, Batman (and family),
> Daredevil, GA, etc...but, like I said in an earlier post, there are
> any number of ways to break it down and no good way to cover everyone.

I don't think you have to limit a character to one category.

Batman is a gadget guy, but not *the* gadget guy. But (maybe) the
vigilante.

> >> Seriously, though...Jack Knight/Starman would be my favorite in this
> >> category...one of the most interesting modern characters with ties the
> >> past and a very cool looking cosmic rod...I never really thought of
> >> him as a gadget guy but I guess he is when it comes down to it.
> >True I guess.

> Just of a better fit for this category...Kate
> Spencer(?)/Manhunter...using confiscated supervillain tech to kick
> some ass.

OK.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

I'm not sure that Super Strong is too wide...in some ways, I'd say
it's too narrow (though not as much as demi-god)...there really aren't
THAT many characters who are only super strong...usually strength
comes in combination with other powers like with Superman or
Spiderman.

>> personally, I think I'd have gone with an
>> urban vigilante (basically steet level) category...
>
>Agreed.
>
>> possibly instead of
>> Ultimate Human...this would include Spidey, Batman (and family),
>> Daredevil, GA, etc...but, like I said in an earlier post, there are
>> any number of ways to break it down and no good way to cover everyone.
>
>I don't think you have to limit a character to one category.

True...but if the categories overlap too much then there's not much
point in breaking it down at all.

>Batman is a gadget guy, but not *the* gadget guy. But (maybe) the
>vigilante.

Oh, I'd say he's the quintessential urban vigilante...basically the
model for the archetype even if he wasn't the absolute first of his
kind...there are just as many Batman-knockoffs, if not more, than
Superman-knockoffs...the Supermans just tend to be more obvious.

[Duggy]

On Oct 24, 5:47 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:28:03 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

> >> I'm not sure demi-god is a very good category (though I'm not sure
> >> what I'd replace it with)...
> >OK.  Super Strong... to wide...
> I'm not sure that Super Strong is too wide...in some ways, I'd say
> it's too narrow (though not as much as demi-god)...there really aren't
> THAT many characters who are only super strong...usually strength
> comes in combination with other powers like with Superman or
> Spiderman.

True... when I said too wide I meant Super-strong travels from
Superman, Hulk, Heracles, etc, to characters that are slightly
stronger than Batman/Captain America.

> >I don't think you have to limit a character to one category.
> True...but if the categories overlap too much then there's not much
> point in breaking it down at all.

True, then it becomes just listing the powers.

> >Batman is a gadget guy, but not *the* gadget guy.  But (maybe) the
> >vigilante.
> Oh, I'd say he's the quintessential urban vigilante...basically the
> model for the archetype even if he wasn't the absolute first of his
> kind...there are just as many Batman-knockoffs, if not more, than
> Superman-knockoffs...the Supermans just tend to be more obvious.

The superman ones seem more direct... whereas the Batman ones take
away the "Bat" and are able to hide it more.

===
= DUG.
===

[William George Ferguson]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au>
wrote:

>On Oct 24, 6:39 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
>wrote:
>> > - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
>> >Captain Marvel, many clear copies.
>> Thunderbunny!  Okay, maybe not.
>
>Fair enough.
>
>> > - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness .
>> >mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.
>> This should actually be 'Normal Human'.
>
>Batman isn't normal.
>
>>  Over most of his career, Batman
>> has just been an extremely well trained, conditioned, and dedicated human.
>
>Yes. The ultimate human.
>
>> If written properly, he should never be able to defeat an 'ultimate human
>> type' through sheer physical ability, rather through skill, training, and
>> planning.
>
>Huh?

I think it comes down to this, is Batman (in DC terminology) a metahuman?
This also gets into defining terms, for me, based primarily on how Marvel
uses the term in OHOTMU And Sons, Peak Human and Ultimate Human mean
something that, barely, falls within the 'human' scale, but with an
over-all capabality that a human couldn't reach just by dedication and
training.

Bruce Wayne isn't 'normal', but he made himself what he is through
dedication and hard work. No amount of hard work and dedication will reach
the level of Steve Rogers or Cassandra Cain without some type of
augmentation. That's the differentiation I make with Batman.

Someone upthread mentioned that Batman has the unofficial superpower of
always finding a way to win. So, Hoo'd Win, Batman or Sqauirrel Girl?
(actually, I think their superpowers would lead them to immediately
team-up, so both would win).

[grinningdemon]

That sounds like a cop-out to me...if they can't get there through
normal means, then they are superhuman.

>Bruce Wayne isn't 'normal', but he made himself what he is through
>dedication and hard work. No amount of hard work and dedication will reach
>the level of Steve Rogers or Cassandra Cain without some type of
>augmentation. That's the differentiation I make with Batman.

Cassadra Cain was never augmented...she was just raised in a unique
fashion...her ability comes from training or else is inherited from
her assassin parents.

As for Steve Rogers, his abilities are not impossible to reach with
hard work and dedication for a normal, healthy person...they may have
been impossible to attain FOR HIM given his condition prior to the
super soldier serum...but, to a normal, healthy person the serum is
just a shortcut.

>Someone upthread mentioned that Batman has the unofficial superpower of
>always finding a way to win. So, Hoo'd Win, Batman or Sqauirrel Girl?
>(actually, I think their superpowers would lead them to immediately
>team-up, so both would win).

Who would win depends on whether DC or Marvel published the issue.

[Duggy]

On Oct 25, 4:03 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
wrote:

> I think it comes down to this, is Batman (in DC terminology) a metahuman?

No.

> This also gets into defining terms, for me, based primarily on how Marvel
> uses the term in OHOTMU And Sons, Peak Human and Ultimate Human mean
> something that, barely, falls within the 'human' scale,

Agree.

> but with an
> over-all capabality that a human couldn't reach just by dedication and
> training.

The point of Batman is... he's reached it.

===
= DUG.
===

[Wayne S Garmil]

In article <9g8ba7lbrvuilmuj7...@4ax.com>,

William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>

>Someone upthread mentioned that Batman has the unofficial superpower of
>always finding a way to win. So, Hoo'd Win, Batman or Sqauirrel Girl?
>(actually, I think their superpowers would lead them to immediately
>team-up, so both would win).

Oh my god, so *that's* who the mystery woman is in DCNU issues: it's
the Hooded Hoodwin!! Why didn't I figure that out before now?? It's
so obvious!!

Oh, and to answer your question: the team-up would be interrupted by
Catwoman who was jealous of Squirrel Girl for spending time with
Batman :-)

Wayne


--
_ __ _ __ | I see the girls walk by dressed in
' ) / // / / ) / | their summer clothes; I have to turn
/ / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ | my head until my darkness goes...
(_(_/ <_</_(_/ (__/ (_/|_/ (_(_/_ | -Rolling Stones, "Paint It Black"

[Shawn Wilson]

On Oct 23, 6:04 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
> over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
> contenders for that.)

>  - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
> Captain Marvel, many clear copies.

Superman, Captain Marvel, Thor, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter,
Supreme.

I will go with... Supreme. I like the fun.

>  - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
> mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.

Batman, Captain America, Mr Terrific.

I think... Captain America.

>  - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.

Iron Man, War Machine, Rocket Red, Steel, Blue Beetle (3)

... Iron Man (movie version). The best incarnation. How else is a
billionaire inventor going to give himself superpowers.

>  - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
> Superman.

Strength/toughness Only?

Hulk, Thing, Colossus,

... Hulk.

>  - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...

Batman (second to human perfection), Blue Beetle (2), Hmmm..


Anyway... Blue Beetle (2).



Speedster-

Flash, Quicksilver

Winner is... Flash.



Stretcher-

Mr Fantastic, Plastic Man, Elongated Man

... Elongated Man.



Universal powers-

Green Lantern, Captain Atom, Dr Manhattan,

... Green Lantern



Magic-

Dr Strange, Zatanna, Dr Fate

...Zatanna


Telepathy-

Professor X, Martian Manhunter

...Professor X.

[Wouter Valentijn]

"Duggy" <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> schreef in bericht
news:d0f4301c-786f-45f1...@h23g2000pra.googlegroups.com...

I would combine suit and gadget.... Both are not natural.



Reminds me of the TV show Mutant X.
They also had some type of system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_X_(TV_series)

- Feral
- Molecular
- Elemental
- Psionic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_X_(TV_series)#New_Mutant_Classifications


As for who I think is 'the best' per superhero type....

I would say:
- Strength type: Superman. Dude moves planets and at the same time he is
still this modest nice guy.
- Peak type / well trained human: Batman, mad skills in combat, smarts, plus
the outfit is just really cool.
- Suit/gadget....uhm. Nothing really clear on this front I must admit....
Spiderman maybe. Webbing etc.
- Psi powers (Teek, Teep, etc), Jean Grey. Can't help it. Have a crush. :-)
- Magic/mystic: Doctor Strange and Zatanna (she got legs, she knows how to
use them).
- Cosmic: The Silver Surfer
- Shrinkers/growers.... mean very little to nothing to me. Well if you
expand to body funkiness in general: Mister Fantastic.
- Inventors might be another type. Not just suits and gadgets and such, but
extreme technological advances: Again there is Mister Fantastic. And also
Forge I'd say.


--
Wouter Valentijn http://www.j3v.net

Rory 'The Roman' Pond: "Would you like me to repeat the question?"

'Doctor Who 6x07: A Good Man goes to War'

liam=mail

[Duggy]

On Oct 26, 5:22 am, Shawn Wilson <ikonoql...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 23, 6:04 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

> > There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
> > over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
> > contenders for that.)
> >  - Superman type (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability, etc): Superman,
> > Captain Marvel, many clear copies.

> Superman, Captain Marvel, Thor, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter,
> Supreme.

> I will go with...  Supreme.  I like the fun.

Nice.

> >  - Ultimate human type (Peak of human physical fitness without
> > mutations, experiments, powers):  Batman, The Phantom, etc.
> Batman, Captain America, Mr Terrific.
>
> I think...  Captain America.

Cool.

> >  - Power-suit (Guys in high tech armour): Iron Man, Hardware.
>
> Iron Man, War Machine, Rocket Red, Steel, Blue Beetle (3)
>
> ... Iron Man (movie version).  The best incarnation.  How else is a
> billionaire inventor going to give himself superpowers.

Drugs?

> >  - Demi-god (Super-human strength):  Captain America, original
> > Superman.
>
> Strength/toughness Only?
>
> Hulk, Thing, Colossus,
>
> ... Hulk.

Cool.

> >  - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...
>
> Batman (second to human perfection), Blue Beetle (2), Hmmm..
>
> Anyway... Blue Beetle (2).

OK.

> Speedster-
>
> Flash, Quicksilver
>
> Winner is... Flash.

Always.

> Stretcher-

Good cat.

> Mr Fantastic, Plastic Man, Elongated Man
>
> ... Elongated Man.

Good call.

> Universal powers-

> Green Lantern, Captain Atom, Dr Manhattan,
>
> ...  Green Lantern


> Magic-
>
> Dr Strange, Zatanna, Dr Fate
>
> ...Zatanna
>
> Telepathy-
>
> Professor X, Martian Manhunter
>
> ...Professor X.

All good.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Oct 26, 7:00 am, "Wouter Valentijn" <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> > - Gadget guy:  Blue Beetle, Tony Stark, Batman...
> I would combine suit and gadget.... Both are not natural.

A lot of things aren't natural.

But a suit is armour and a gadget guy is an inventor. Very different
things.

> Reminds me of the TV show Mutant X.
> They also had some type of system:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_X_(TV_series)
>
> - Feral
> - Molecular
> - Elemental
> - Psionic
>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_X_(TV_series)#New_Mutant_Classifi...

They're looking for different things, I think.

> As for  who I think is 'the best' per superhero type....
>
> I would say:
> - Strength type: Superman. Dude moves planets and at the same time he is
> still this modest nice guy.
> - Peak type / well trained human: Batman, mad skills in combat, smarts, plus
> the outfit is just really cool.
> - Suit/gadget....uhm. Nothing really clear on this front I must admit....
> Spiderman maybe. Webbing etc.
> - Psi powers (Teek, Teep, etc), Jean Grey. Can't help it. Have a crush. :-)
> - Magic/mystic: Doctor Strange and Zatanna (she got legs, she knows how to
> use them).
> - Cosmic: The Silver Surfer
> - Shrinkers/growers.... mean very little to nothing to me. Well if you
> expand to body funkiness in general: Mister Fantastic.
> - Inventors might be another type. Not just suits and gadgets and such, but
> extreme technological advances: Again there is Mister Fantastic. And also
> Forge I'd say.

Good calls.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Oct 23, 11:04 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
> over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
> contenders for that.)
> I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
> or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
> see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
> who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
>
> Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.

Sorting and fixing...

SUPERMAN-TYPE: (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability)
- Superman +
- Captain Marvel +
- Majestic.
- Thor
- Wonder Woman
- Martian Manhunter
- Supreme.

Peak Human: (Peak of human physical fitness without mutations,
experiments, powers)
- Batman
- The Phantom
- Captain America
- Cassandra Cain

Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour):

- Iron Man
- Hardware.
- MANTIS.
- War Machine
- Steel
- STRIPE
- Jean Paul Valley's Batman
- Rocket Reds
- Team Luthor (including heroic Lex)
- Batman [Future versions]
- Superman [When powerless]
- Booster Gold [Post Doomsday]
- Blue Beetle (III)

Super Strong: (Super-human strength)
- original Superman
- Luke Cage
- Hulk
- Thing
- Colossus
- Hercules
- Samson

Gadget Guy: (Creator & User)
- Blue Beetle
- Batman
- little Asian kid from The Goonie
- Spider-man

Cosmic Gadget Guy:
- Jack Knight/Starman

Inventor:
- Mr Fantastic
- Forge

Weapon User [Archer]:
- Robin Hood.
- Green Arrow.
- Speedy.
- Arrowette.

Universal Power:
- Green Lantern
- Captain Atom
- Dr Manhattan,

Cosmic Item users:
- Hawkman
- Starman
- Green Lantern.

Urban Vigilante:
- Daredevil
- Green Arrow
- Batman
- Punisher

Martial Artist:


Size Changer:
- Hank Pym
- Rita Farr

Shrinker:
- Atom

Grower:
- Colossal Kid

Stretchers:
- Mr Fantastic
- Plastic Man
- Elongated Man

Spell User:
- Dr. Strange
- Zatanna

Mytical:
- Dr Fate

Psi powers: (Teek, Teep, etc)
- Jean Grey
- Professor X
- Martian Manhunter

Cosmic Powers:
- The Silver Surfer

Speedster:
- Flash
- Quicksilver

Mythological/Godly:
- Thor

Animal Powers:
- Spider-man

Energy Blasts:
- Cyclops

Ice Powers:
- Iceman


Cable
Vison
Red Tornado
Wonderman

===
= DUG.
===

[Zeb Carter]

> Gadget Guy: (Creator& User)

> - Blue Beetle
> - Batman
> - little Asian kid from The Goonie
> - Spider-man
>
> Cosmic Gadget Guy:
> - Jack Knight/Starman
>
> Inventor:
> - Mr Fantastic
> - Forge
>
> Weapon User [Archer]:
> - Robin Hood.
> - Green Arrow.
> - Speedy.
> - Arrowette.
>

Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user

> Universal Power:
> - Green Lantern
> - Captain Atom
> - Dr Manhattan,
>
> Cosmic Item users:
> - Hawkman
> - Starman
> - Green Lantern.

I think Quasar fits in here

>
> Urban Vigilante:
> - Daredevil
> - Green Arrow
> - Batman
> - Punisher
>
> Martial Artist:

Add Iron Fist to this one

>
>
> Size Changer:
> - Hank Pym
> - Rita Farr
>
> Shrinker:
> - Atom
>
> Grower:
> - Colossal Kid
>
> Stretchers:
> - Mr Fantastic
> - Plastic Man
> - Elongated Man
>
> Spell User:
> - Dr. Strange
> - Zatanna
>
> Mytical:
> - Dr Fate

My son suggested Wotan

>
> Psi powers: (Teek, Teep, etc)
> - Jean Grey
> - Professor X
> - Martian Manhunter
>
> Cosmic Powers:
> - The Silver Surfer
>
> Speedster:
> - Flash
> - Quicksilver
>
> Mythological/Godly:
> - Thor
>
> Animal Powers:
> - Spider-man
>
> Energy Blasts:
> - Cyclops

>
> Ice Powers:
> - Iceman
>
>
> Cable
> Vison
> Red Tornado
> Wonderman
>
> ===
> = DUG.
> ===

See my adds in the body.

[grinningdemon]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:50:12 -0500, Zeb Carter <zeb_c...@ymail.com>
wrote:

>Duggy wrote:
>> On Oct 23, 11:04 pm, Duggy<Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>>> There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
>>> over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
>>> contenders for that.)
>>> I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
>>> or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
>>> see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
>>> who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
>>>
>>> Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.
>>
>> Sorting and fixing...
>>
>> SUPERMAN-TYPE: (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability)
>> - Superman +
>> - Captain Marvel +
>> - Majestic.
>> - Thor
>> - Wonder Woman
>> - Martian Manhunter
>> - Supreme.

Apollo
Plutonian (I think that's the name from Irredemable)
And I don't think WW and Thor really fit this category.

>> Peak Human: (Peak of human physical fitness without mutations,
>> experiments, powers)
>> - Batman
>> - The Phantom
>> - Captain America
>> - Cassandra Cain
>>
>> Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour):
>> - Iron Man
>> - Hardware.
>> - MANTIS.
>> - War Machine
>> - Steel
>> - STRIPE
>> - Jean Paul Valley's Batman
>> - Rocket Reds
>> - Team Luthor (including heroic Lex)
>> - Batman [Future versions]
>> - Superman [When powerless]
>> - Booster Gold [Post Doomsday]

He always had a powersuit...it just didn't look that way most of the
time.

Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).

>> Universal Power:
>> - Green Lantern
>> - Captain Atom
>> - Dr Manhattan,
>>
>> Cosmic Item users:
>> - Hawkman
>> - Starman
>> - Green Lantern.
>I think Quasar fits in here
>>
>> Urban Vigilante:
>> - Daredevil
>> - Green Arrow
>> - Batman
>> - Punisher

Too many to list

>> Martial Artist:
>Add Iron Fist to this one

Shang Chi
Colleen Wing
any of the bat-family
Black Canary
Most of the urban vigilantes.

>> Size Changer:
>> - Hank Pym
>> - Rita Farr
>>
>> Shrinker:
>> - Atom
>>
>> Grower:
>> - Colossal Kid
>>
>> Stretchers:
>> - Mr Fantastic
>> - Plastic Man
>> - Elongated Man

Flat Man

>> Spell User:
>> - Dr. Strange
>> - Zatanna

Constantine
Brother Voodoo
Jason Blood (when not Etrigan)

>> Mytical:
>> - Dr Fate
>My son suggested Wotan
>>
>> Psi powers: (Teek, Teep, etc)
>> - Jean Grey
>> - Professor X
>> - Martian Manhunter

Rachel Summers/Grey
Nate Summers/Cable
Nate Grey/X-Man
Emma Frost
Psylocke

>> Cosmic Powers:
>> - The Silver Surfer
>>
>> Speedster:
>> - Flash

So many Flashes...so little time.

>> - Quicksilver

Also his counterpart in Young Avengers (I forget the name)
Johnny and Jesse Quick

>> Mythological/Godly:
>> - Thor
>>
>> Animal Powers:
>> - Spider-man

Animal Man
Vixen
Bwana Beast
Aquaman

>> Energy Blasts:
>> - Cyclops

Havok
Dazzler
Jubilee (before she lost her powers)

>> Ice Powers:
>> - Iceman

How about weather or element related powers instead?
Ice
Human Torch (both of them)
Fire
Firestar
Firelord
Farenheit
Storm
Mera
Red Tornado
Cyclone

>> Cable
>> Vison
>> Red Tornado
>> Wonderman
>>
>> ===
>> = DUG.
>> ===
>
>See my adds in the body.

Ditto.

[Duggy]

Obviously, yeah.

> > Universal Power:
> >   - Green Lantern
> >   - Captain Atom
> >   - Dr Manhattan,

> > Cosmic Item users:
> >   - Hawkman
> >   - Starman
> >   - Green Lantern.
> I think Quasar fits in here

Fair enough.

> > Urban Vigilante:
> >   - Daredevil
> >   - Green Arrow
> >   - Batman
> >   - Punisher
>
> > Martial Artist:
> Add Iron Fist to this one

There are a lot... I'd lean towards those who are martial artist (like
Iron Fist) rather than those who have other skills/powers and also
know martial arts.

> > Mytical:
> >   - Dr Fate
> My son suggested Wotan

[Lilith]

To some extent you can put Rita Farr in this group too. We've seen
where she'll adjust the use of her power to extend the length of her
arm out of proportion to her body to reach something.

--
Lilith

[Lilith]

Strong Guy?

Other iterations of Goliath?
Atlas?

--
Lilith

[Duggy]

On Oct 26, 12:30 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>

wrote:
> >Duggy wrote:
> >> On Oct 23, 11:04 pm, Duggy<Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au>  wrote:
> >>> There are certain super-hero types or archetypes or characters copied
> >>> over and over... so who is the best of each (and who are the
> >>> contenders for that.)
> >>> I don't care who was the first, has the most history, is most popular
> >>> or most well known, but rather who do you like most, would you rather
> >>> see written properly if all other of this type stopped being publish,
> >>> who is the most interesting, has the best story etc.
> >>> Think any comic company... but books, TV and film is OK, too.
> >> Sorting and fixing...

> >> SUPERMAN-TYPE: (Flight, Strength, Invulnerability)
> >>   - Superman +
> >>   - Captain Marvel +
> >>   - Majestic.
> >>   - Thor
> >>   - Wonder Woman
> >>   - Martian Manhunter
> >>   - Supreme.

> Apollo
> Plutonian (I think that's the name from Irredemable)

That is my understanding.

> And I don't think WW and Thor really fit this category.

How about "Superman Archetype" and "Other Flight/Strong/Invulnerable"
cats...

> >> Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour):
> >>   - Iron Man
> >>   - Hardware.
> >>   - MANTIS.
> >>   - War Machine
> >>   - Steel
> >>   - STRIPE
> >>   - Jean Paul Valley's Batman
> >>   - Rocket Reds
> >>   - Team Luthor (including heroic Lex)
> >>   - Batman [Future versions]
> >>   - Superman [When powerless]
> >>   - Booster Gold [Post Doomsday]
> He always had a powersuit...it just didn't look that way most of the
> time.

I'd say he's usually "future tech" it's a little beyond just a
powersuit.

> >> Weapon User [Archer]:
> >>   - Robin Hood.
> >>   - Green Arrow.
> >>   - Speedy.
> >>   - Arrowette.
> >Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user
> Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
> And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).

Arsenal I'd say "Weapons (All)"

> >> Urban Vigilante:
> >>   - Daredevil
> >>   - Green Arrow
> >>   - Batman
> >>   - Punisher
> Too many to list

True.

> >> Martial Artist:
> >Add Iron Fist to this one
> Shang Chi
> Colleen Wing
> any of the bat-family
> Black Canary
> Most of the urban vigilantes.

That's why I didn't want to add ones that were's exclusively martial
arts... but I admit there will be problems drawing that line.

> >> Stretchers:
> >>   - Mr Fantastic
> >>   - Plastic Man
> >>   - Elongated Man
> Flat Man

OK.

> >> Spell User:
> >>   - Dr. Strange
> >>   - Zatanna
> Constantine
> Brother Voodoo
> Jason Blood (when not Etrigan)

Cool.

> >> Psi powers: (Teek, Teep, etc)
> >>   - Jean Grey
> >>   - Professor X
> >>   - Martian Manhunter

> Rachel Summers/Grey
> Nate Summers/Cable
> Nate Grey/X-Man
> Emma Frost
> Psylocke

Cool.

> >> Speedster:
> >>   - Flash
>
> So many Flashes...so little time.
>
> >>   - Quicksilver
>
> Also his counterpart in Young Avengers (I forget the name)
> Johnny and Jesse Quick

Yup.

> >> Animal Powers:
> >>   - Spider-man

> Animal Man
> Vixen
> Bwana Beast
> Aquaman

Yup.

> >> Energy Blasts:
> >>   - Cyclops
> Havok
> Dazzler
> Jubilee (before she lost her powers)

Yup.

> >> Ice Powers:
> >>   - Iceman
> How about weather or element related powers instead?

I'll accept "Element (Ice)" because there are a few of them (often
villains, often sympathetic)

> Ice

Element (Fire)

> Human Torch (both of them)
> Fire
> Firestar
> Firelord
> Farenheit

Element (Weather/Wind)

> Storm
> Mera
> Red Tornado
> Cyclone

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

I would probably do a separate category for the mythological-based
heroes like WW, Thor, Herc, etc...there's quite a few of them,
actually...and they tend to have more in common with each other than
with other characters.

>> >> Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour):
>> >>   - Iron Man
>> >>   - Hardware.
>> >>   - MANTIS.
>> >>   - War Machine
>> >>   - Steel
>> >>   - STRIPE
>> >>   - Jean Paul Valley's Batman
>> >>   - Rocket Reds
>> >>   - Team Luthor (including heroic Lex)
>> >>   - Batman [Future versions]
>> >>   - Superman [When powerless]
>> >>   - Booster Gold [Post Doomsday]
>> He always had a powersuit...it just didn't look that way most of the
>> time.
>
>I'd say he's usually "future tech" it's a little beyond just a
>powersuit.

It's future tech but it was always a power suit.

>> >> Weapon User [Archer]:
>> >>   - Robin Hood.
>> >>   - Green Arrow.
>> >>   - Speedy.
>> >>   - Arrowette.
>> >Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user
>> Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
>> And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).
>
>Arsenal I'd say "Weapons (All)"

Occasionally, he gets back to his roots and goes on an archery
kick...but sure.

Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.

>> >> Urban Vigilante:
>> >>   - Daredevil
>> >>   - Green Arrow
>> >>   - Batman
>> >>   - Punisher
>> Too many to list
>
>True.
>
>> >> Martial Artist:
>> >Add Iron Fist to this one
>> Shang Chi
>> Colleen Wing
>> any of the bat-family
>> Black Canary
>> Most of the urban vigilantes.
>
>That's why I didn't want to add ones that were's exclusively martial
>arts... but I admit there will be problems drawing that line.

VERY hard to draw that line...especially when a lot of them have had
formal training as samurai, ninja, etc...and very few of them could be
said to be purely martial artists without falling into the urban
vigilante or ultimate human categories.

[grinningdemon]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:48:16 -0500, Lilith <lili...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Superficially, yeah...but he's got a little more going on than most
with standard super strength.

I meant to put Atlas in mine...totally forgot.

[Duggy]

Source isn't really the point, though.

> >I'd say he's usually "future tech" it's a little beyond just a
> >powersuit.

> It's future tech but it was always a power suit.

I don't think it would fit the standard definitions of power armour.

> >> >> Weapon User [Archer]:
> >> >>   - Robin Hood.
> >> >>   - Green Arrow.
> >> >>   - Speedy.
> >> >>   - Arrowette.
> >> >Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user
> >> Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
> >> And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).
>
> >Arsenal I'd say "Weapons (All)"
> Occasionally, he gets back to his roots and goes on an archery
> kick...but sure.

Usually as Speedy or Red Arrow. Arsenal is usually "All Weapons"

> Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.

Hence "Weapon User (Archer)"

> >> >> Martial Artist:
> >> >Add Iron Fist to this one
> >> Shang Chi
> >> Colleen Wing
> >> any of the bat-family
> >> Black Canary
> >> Most of the urban vigilantes.

> >That's why I didn't want to add ones that were's exclusively martial
> >arts... but I admit there will be problems drawing that line.

> VERY hard to draw that line...

Will be in most cats.

> especially when a lot of them have had
> formal training as samurai, ninja, etc...and very few of them could be
> said to be purely martial artists without falling into the urban
> vigilante or ultimate human categories.

Villains more than heroes.

Shiva
Karate Kid.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

The similarities usually run deeper than the source...they often have
similar powers (at least up to a point) and often have similar aspects
of characterization as well...it just seems like a better fit to me
than any other category we've come up with.

>> >I'd say he's usually "future tech" it's a little beyond just a
>> >powersuit.
>
>> It's future tech but it was always a power suit.
>
>I don't think it would fit the standard definitions of power armour.

You didn't say power armor...you said power SUIT...and, while his
tends to look like a normal superhero costume, I suspect most people
who know of its origins and exactly what it does would put it in this
category.

>> >> >> Weapon User [Archer]:
>> >> >>   - Robin Hood.
>> >> >>   - Green Arrow.
>> >> >>   - Speedy.
>> >> >>   - Arrowette.
>> >> >Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user
>> >> Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
>> >> And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).
>>
>> >Arsenal I'd say "Weapons (All)"
>> Occasionally, he gets back to his roots and goes on an archery
>> kick...but sure.
>
>Usually as Speedy or Red Arrow. Arsenal is usually "All Weapons"

When one character goes by several different names, it's hard to break
him down into categories and say he fits this one, but only under this
identity...you might as well say he's an archer on Tuesday and
Thursday.

It's like Hank Pym...you've now made two separate categories for
shrinkers and growers...which one is he? Because he does both
depending on which identity he's using...but he has the ability to do
both ALL the time.

>> Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.
>
>Hence "Weapon User (Archer)"

Yes, but this is the first time. the all-encompassing weapons category
has come up.

>> >> >> Martial Artist:
>> >> >Add Iron Fist to this one
>> >> Shang Chi
>> >> Colleen Wing
>> >> any of the bat-family
>> >> Black Canary
>> >> Most of the urban vigilantes.
>
>> >That's why I didn't want to add ones that were's exclusively martial
>> >arts... but I admit there will be problems drawing that line.
>
>> VERY hard to draw that line...
>
>Will be in most cats.
>
>> especially when a lot of them have had
>> formal training as samurai, ninja, etc...and very few of them could be
>> said to be purely martial artists without falling into the urban
>> vigilante or ultimate human categories.
>
>Villains more than heroes.
>
>Shiva

Even with Shiva, she's an assassin first and martial artist
second...and, if we start categorizing villains, assassin would almost
certainly be one of the categories.

[Duggy]

On Oct 26, 6:54 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

> >> >I'd say he's usually "future tech" it's a little beyond just a
> >> >powersuit.
>
> >> It's future tech but it was always a power suit.
> >I don't think it would fit the standard definitions of power armour.
> You didn't say power armor...you said power SUIT...

I said: "Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour): "

I can change it *back* to Power Armour if you prefer.

> and, while his
> tends to look like a normal superhero costume, I suspect most people
> who know of its origins and exactly what it does would put it in this
> category.

I think "Item (Powered Costume):" works for him and Greatest American
Hero.

> >> >> >> Weapon User [Archer]:
> >> >> >>   - Robin Hood.
> >> >> >>   - Green Arrow.
> >> >> >>   - Speedy.
> >> >> >>   - Arrowette.
> >> >> >Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user
> >> >> Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
> >> >> And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).
>
> >> >Arsenal I'd say "Weapons (All)"
> >> Occasionally, he gets back to his roots and goes on an archery
> >> kick...but sure.
>
> >Usually as Speedy or Red Arrow.  Arsenal is usually "All Weapons"
> When one character goes by several different names, it's hard to break
> him down into categories and say he fits this one, but only under this
> identity...you might as well say he's an archer on Tuesday and
> Thursday.

As Arsenal he used a range of weapons. As Speed & Red Arrow he used
Bows.

> It's like Hank Pym...you've now made two separate categories for
> shrinkers and growers...which one is he?  Because he does both
> depending on which identity he's using...but he has the ability to do
> both ALL the time.

There's a both cat. Learn to read.

> >> Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.
> >Hence "Weapon User (Archer)"
> Yes, but this is the first time.

Huh?

> >Shiva
> Even with Shiva, she's an assassin first and martial artist
> second...and, if we start categorizing villains, assassin would almost
> certainly be one of the categories.

Fair call.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:08:50 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>On Oct 26, 6:54 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>
>> >> >I'd say he's usually "future tech" it's a little beyond just a
>> >> >powersuit.
>>
>> >> It's future tech but it was always a power suit.
>> >I don't think it would fit the standard definitions of power armour.
>> You didn't say power armor...you said power SUIT...
>
>I said: "Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour): "
>
>I can change it *back* to Power Armour if you prefer.

The suit does protect him as armor would...I say it fits.

>> and, while his
>> tends to look like a normal superhero costume, I suspect most people
>> who know of its origins and exactly what it does would put it in this
>> category.
>
>I think "Item (Powered Costume):" works for him and Greatest American
>Hero.

I think you're being too specific...I don't see a point in creating
another category when there are so few that would fit in
it...furthermore, almost any example of a "powered costume" that I can
think of also serves as armor whether it looks the part or not.

>> >> >> >> Weapon User [Archer]:
>> >> >> >>   - Robin Hood.
>> >> >> >>   - Green Arrow.
>> >> >> >>   - Speedy.
>> >> >> >>   - Arrowette.
>> >> >> >Add Hawkeye as a possible under weapon user
>> >> >> Both Hawkeyes...original and younger, female version.
>> >> >> And Red Arrow/Arsenal (somtimes).
>>
>> >> >Arsenal I'd say "Weapons (All)"
>> >> Occasionally, he gets back to his roots and goes on an archery
>> >> kick...but sure.
>>
>> >Usually as Speedy or Red Arrow.  Arsenal is usually "All Weapons"
>> When one character goes by several different names, it's hard to break
>> him down into categories and say he fits this one, but only under this
>> identity...you might as well say he's an archer on Tuesday and
>> Thursday.
>
>As Arsenal he used a range of weapons. As Speed & Red Arrow he used
>Bows.
>
>> It's like Hank Pym...you've now made two separate categories for
>> shrinkers and growers...which one is he?  Because he does both
>> depending on which identity he's using...but he has the ability to do
>> both ALL the time.
>
>There's a both cat. Learn to read.

If he's both, why isn't Roy Harper? It's pretty much the same
situation...different MO for different identities but always with the
ability to use either.

>> >> Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.
>> >Hence "Weapon User (Archer)"
>> Yes, but this is the first time.
>
>Huh?

Shouldn't have been a period there...the point is you shouldn't start
off with the subcategories before you address the primary.

[Duggy]

On Oct 27, 2:15 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >I said: "Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour): "
> >I can change it *back* to Power Armour if you prefer.
> The suit does protect him as armor would...I say it fits.

He'd look stupid if it didn't.

> >I think "Item (Powered Costume):" works for him and Greatest American
> >Hero.
> I think you're being too specific...I don't see a point in creating
> another category when there are so few that would fit in
> it...furthermore, almost any example of a "powered costume" that I can
> think of also serves as armor whether it looks the part or not.

Possibly.

> >There's a both cat.  Learn to read.
> If he's both, why isn't Roy Harper?  It's pretty much the same
> situation...different MO for different identities but always with the
> ability to use either.

Because these things happen.

> >> >> Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.
> >> >Hence "Weapon User (Archer)"
> >> Yes, but this is the first time.
> >Huh?
> Shouldn't have been a period there...the point is you shouldn't start
> off with the subcategories before you address the primary.

Ah.

I should have done an all weapons and/or a misc weapons and then an
archer... but archer is actually a bigger cat.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:37:28 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>On Oct 27, 2:15 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >I said: "Power-suit: (Guys in high tech armour): "
>> >I can change it *back* to Power Armour if you prefer.
>> The suit does protect him as armor would...I say it fits.
>
>He'd look stupid if it didn't.

The category fits.

>> >I think "Item (Powered Costume):" works for him and Greatest American
>> >Hero.
>> I think you're being too specific...I don't see a point in creating
>> another category when there are so few that would fit in
>> it...furthermore, almost any example of a "powered costume" that I can
>> think of also serves as armor whether it looks the part or not.
>
>Possibly.
>
>> >There's a both cat.  Learn to read.
>> If he's both, why isn't Roy Harper?  It's pretty much the same
>> situation...different MO for different identities but always with the
>> ability to use either.
>
>Because these things happen.

As they did with Hank Pym...if he fits both at the same time then so
does Roy.

>> >> >> Archer should be a subcategory under the broader weapons category.
>> >> >Hence "Weapon User (Archer)"
>> >> Yes, but this is the first time.
>> >Huh?
>> Shouldn't have been a period there...the point is you shouldn't start
>> off with the subcategories before you address the primary.
>
>Ah.
>
>I should have done an all weapons and/or a misc weapons and then an
>archer... but archer is actually a bigger cat.

Not really.

Arsenal
Punisher
Deadpool
Deathstroke
Ultimate Hawkeye
Black Widow
Mockingbird
Batman (who sadly even uses guns since Morrison got ahold of him)
Dick Grayson (was a cop with a gun...used most other weapons as
Nightwing)
Red Hood (apparently a good guy again)

All use a wide range of weapons...most will use whatever is on hand.

And that's just off the top of my head.

[Duggy]

On Oct 28, 6:44 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:37:28 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>

Agreed.

> Punisher

"Weapon user (Guns)." He uses other weapons, sure, but his gimmick is
guns. Plus I'd say "Urban Vigilante" sums him up enough.

> Deadpool

"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.

> Deathstroke

"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.

> Ultimate Hawkeye

I'll take your word.

> Black Widow
> Mockingbird

OK.

> Batman (who sadly even uses guns since Morrison got ahold of him)

Has used guns isn't "Weapon User (Guns)". Superman has used guns.

To be in a cat, that cat has to be a defining feature of the
character. Batman *can* use any weapon. But the use of any weapon
isn't what defines him. His use of the Batarang as "Weapon User
(Thrown)" sure. It's like Martial Arts. Batman knows them. Batman
is always near the top of "best Martial Artists in the DCU" but he
isn't defined by his Martial Arts.

> Dick Grayson (was a cop with a gun...used most other weapons as
> Nightwing)

Used most other weapons or was known for being able to use any weapon?

> Red Hood (apparently a good guy again)

OK.

> All use a wide range of weapons...most will use whatever is on hand.
> And that's just off the top of my head.

That's not the same thing as a character who's gimmick is using any
weapon.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

Guns may be the first thing you think of but, if you actually read the
books, he uses blades, explosives, etc. almost as much.

As for urban vigilante, it fits...but, as you've been saying all
along, some will fit more than one category and you certainly can't
put Punisher and Batman in the same category without differentiating
between them somehow.

>> Deadpool
>
>"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.
>
>> Deathstroke
>
>"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.

These two vary greatly depending on who is writing them and whether or
not they are the featured character...but, in their own stories, they
are most often depicted as heroes or at least anti-heroes...and they
are known for using many different weapons (most notably blades and
guns).

>> Ultimate Hawkeye
>
>I'll take your word.

He's a Bullseye type...he still leans toward the bow but is shown as a
master pretty much any weapon...even things most people wouldn't think
to use as weapons.

>> Black Widow
>> Mockingbird
>
>OK.
>
>> Batman (who sadly even uses guns since Morrison got ahold of him)
>
>Has used guns isn't "Weapon User (Guns)". Superman has used guns.
>
>To be in a cat, that cat has to be a defining feature of the
>character.

Using a gun is a betrayal of a defining feature of the character...I'd
say that's just as important...but, even taking guns out of the
equation, he uses pretty much every type of weapon imaginable.

Batman *can* use any weapon. But the use of any weapon
>isn't what defines him. His use of the Batarang as "Weapon User
>(Thrown)" sure. It's like Martial Arts. Batman knows them. Batman
>is always near the top of "best Martial Artists in the DCU" but he
>isn't defined by his Martial Arts.
>
>> Dick Grayson (was a cop with a gun...used most other weapons as
>> Nightwing)
>
>Used most other weapons or was known for being able to use any weapon?

The entire bat-family has been shown repeatedly to be masters of all
types of weapons...even guns (they practiced with guns to better
understand how to deal with them)...and, as a cop, he actually
regularly carried a gun (unlike any of the others besides Jason Todd).

>> Red Hood (apparently a good guy again)
>
>OK.
>
>> All use a wide range of weapons...most will use whatever is on hand.
>> And that's just off the top of my head.
>
>That's not the same thing as a character who's gimmick is using any
>weapon.

Then we need to be clear here...because, up until now, most of
categorization has been according to ability (either powers or
skills)...not gimmick...if we're going to switch over to gimmick then
there are some other categories we should add...Animal-themed
characters, for instance...and that mythological category you've been
resisting comes into play again.

[Duggy]

On Oct 28, 9:59 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Punisher

> >"Weapon user (Guns)."  He uses other weapons, sure, but his gimmick is
> >guns.  Plus I'd say "Urban Vigilante" sums him up enough.

> Guns may be the first thing you think of but, if you actually read the
> books, he uses blades, explosives, etc. almost as much.

But is that his gimmick?

> As for urban vigilante, it fits...but, as you've been saying all
> along, some will fit more than one category and you certainly can't
> put Punisher and Batman in the same category without differentiating
> between them somehow.

Why? The point between the categories isn't to differentiate between
them.

> >> Deadpool
>
> >"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.
>
> >> Deathstroke
>
> >"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.
>
> These two vary greatly depending on who is writing them and whether or
> not they are the featured character...but, in their own stories, they
> are most often depicted as heroes or at least anti-heroes...and they
> are known for using many different weapons (most notably blades and
> guns).

True.

But do they have the gimmick "can use any weapons"?

> >> Ultimate Hawkeye
> >I'll take your word.
> He's a Bullseye type...he still leans toward the bow but is shown as a
> master pretty much any weapon...even things most people wouldn't think
> to use as weapons.

> >> Batman (who sadly even uses guns since Morrison got ahold of him)
> >Has used guns isn't "Weapon User (Guns)".  Superman has used guns.
> >To be in a cat, that cat has to be a defining feature of the
> >character.  

> Using a gun is a betrayal of a defining feature of the character...I'd
> say that's just as important...but, even taking guns out of the
> equation, he uses pretty much every type of weapon imaginable.

Agreed, but is he known for it?

> Batman *can* use any weapon.  But the use of any weapon
> >isn't what defines him.  His use of the Batarang as "Weapon User
> >(Thrown)" sure.  It's like Martial Arts.  Batman knows them.  Batman
> >is always near the top of "best Martial Artists in the DCU" but he
> >isn't defined by his Martial Arts.

Yeah. This bit.

> >Used most other weapons or was known for being able to use any weapon?
> The entire bat-family has been shown repeatedly to be masters of all
> types of weapons...

Master of... isn't the same as "known for"

Batman can use a bow. I wouldn't put him in the Archer category.

>...and, as a cop, he actually
> regularly carried a gun (unlike any of the others besides Jason Todd).

What he does as a cop isn't what he does as Nightwing.

> >> All use a wide range of weapons...most will use whatever is on hand.
> >> And that's just off the top of my head.
> >That's not the same thing as a character who's gimmick is using any
> >weapon.

> Then we need to be clear here...because, up until now, most of
> categorization has been according to ability (either powers or
> skills)...not gimmick...

Examples.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:06:12 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>On Oct 28, 9:59�am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> Punisher
>
>> >"Weapon user (Guns)." �He uses other weapons, sure, but his gimmick is
>> >guns. �Plus I'd say "Urban Vigilante" sums him up enough.
>
>> Guns may be the first thing you think of but, if you actually read the
>> books, he uses blades, explosives, etc. almost as much.
>
>But is that his gimmick?

You haven't been addressing "gimmicks" until your previous post.

>> As for urban vigilante, it fits...but, as you've been saying all
>> along, some will fit more than one category and you certainly can't
>> put Punisher and Batman in the same category without differentiating
>> between them somehow.
>
>Why? The point between the categories isn't to differentiate between
>them.

Any true categorization of these characters would illustrate the
differences as well as the similarities...certainly if characters
appear on multiple lists.

>> >> Deadpool
>>
>> >"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.
>>
>> >> Deathstroke
>>
>> >"Mercenary/Assassin" cat sums him up better.
>>
>> These two vary greatly depending on who is writing them and whether or
>> not they are the featured character...but, in their own stories, they
>> are most often depicted as heroes or at least anti-heroes...and they
>> are known for using many different weapons (most notably blades and
>> guns).
>
>True.
>
>But do they have the gimmick "can use any weapons"?

I wouldn't say their "gimmick" has anything to do with weapons at
all...but they always use them.

>> >> Ultimate Hawkeye
>> >I'll take your word.
>> He's a Bullseye type...he still leans toward the bow but is shown as a
>> master pretty much any weapon...even things most people wouldn't think
>> to use as weapons.
>
>> >> Batman (who sadly even uses guns since Morrison got ahold of him)
>> >Has used guns isn't "Weapon User (Guns)". �Superman has used guns.
>> >To be in a cat, that cat has to be a defining feature of the
>> >character. �
>
>> Using a gun is a betrayal of a defining feature of the character...I'd
>> say that's just as important...but, even taking guns out of the
>> equation, he uses pretty much every type of weapon imaginable.
>
>Agreed, but is he known for it?

Other than guns, I would say he is known for using all types of
weapons...the batarang might be the most recognizable but that doesn't
mean it's all he's known for...and, as I've said, I thought we were
categrorizing based on skills and powers...I didn't think this was
based on public perception.

>> Batman *can* use any weapon. �But the use of any weapon
>> >isn't what defines him. �His use of the Batarang as "Weapon User
>> >(Thrown)" sure. �It's like Martial Arts. �Batman knows them. �Batman
>> >is always near the top of "best Martial Artists in the DCU" but he
>> >isn't defined by his Martial Arts.
>
>Yeah. This bit.
>
>> >Used most other weapons or was known for being able to use any weapon?
>> The entire bat-family has been shown repeatedly to be masters of all
>> types of weapons...
>
>Master of... isn't the same as "known for"
>
>Batman can use a bow. I wouldn't put him in the Archer category.

He probably can use a bow...but it's not something he does regularly
and he certainly wouldn't be an expert on par with Green Arrow...the
difference is the archers actually have a specialized skill set that
they mostly stick to...Batman and the others I mentioned have a much
more general skill set that needs to be taken into account.

>>...and, as a cop, he actually
>> regularly carried a gun (unlike any of the others besides Jason Todd).
>
>What he does as a cop isn't what he does as Nightwing.

Again, I'm judging by skills...not perception.

>> >> All use a wide range of weapons...most will use whatever is on hand.
>> >> And that's just off the top of my head.
>> >That's not the same thing as a character who's gimmick is using any
>> >weapon.
>
>> Then we need to be clear here...because, up until now, most of
>> categorization has been according to ability (either powers or
>> skills)...not gimmick...
>
>Examples.

For the Superman archetype, it's not just a gimmick...it's a set of
powers...as is super strength, universal power, stretching, growing,
shrinking, etc.

Martial arts is a skill set...as is inventing, using weapons, even
peak human in a way.

Even peak human is more of a skill of sorts...unless the character got
there artificially like Cap, then it's more like a power.

I suppose any of these could actually be a "gimmick" too for certain
characters (like with the archers)...but that is not the case for most
of the characters we've listed in these characters...and certainly not
for those like Batman that land in multiple categories.

[Duggy]

On Oct 28, 3:21 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >But is that his gimmick?
> You haven't been addressing "gimmicks" until your previous post.

Short hand for thing that defines him.

Batman - Urban vigilante, Detective, Peak Human.

Not
Batman - Urban vigilante, Detective, Peak Human, Weapon User (all
types).

> >> As for urban vigilante, it fits...but, as you've been saying all
> >> along, some will fit more than one category and you certainly can't
> >> put Punisher and Batman in the same category without differentiating
> >> between them somehow.
> >Why?  The point between the categories isn't to differentiate between
> >them.

> Any true categorization of these characters would illustrate the
> differences as well as the similarities...certainly if characters
> appear on multiple lists.

True. But it doesn't have to.

> >But do they have the gimmick "can use any weapons"?
> I wouldn't say their "gimmick" has anything to do with weapons at
> all...but they always use them.

Arsenal's gimmick was he can use any weapon.
Green Arrow's gimmick is he uses a bow.

> >> Using a gun is a betrayal of a defining feature of the character...I'd
> >> say that's just as important...but, even taking guns out of the
> >> equation, he uses pretty much every type of weapon imaginable.
> >Agreed, but is he known for it?
> Other than guns, I would say he is known for using all types of
> weapons...

Known for it? If you asked someone what Batman was known for it would
be "using a wide range of weapons"?

> >Batman can use a bow.  I wouldn't put him in the Archer category.
> He probably can use a bow...but it's not something he does regularly
> and he certainly wouldn't be an expert on par with Green Arrow...the
> difference is the archers actually have a specialized skill set that
> they mostly stick to...Batman and the others I mentioned have a much
> more general skill set that needs to be taken into account.

So a character who was known for using all types of weapons at expert
level

> >What he does as a cop isn't what he does as Nightwing.
> Again, I'm judging by skills...not perception.

Then you're missing the point I think.

> >> Then we need to be clear here...because, up until now, most of
> >> categorization has been according to ability (either powers or
> >> skills)...not gimmick...
> >Examples.
> For the Superman archetype, it's not just a gimmick...it's a set of
> powers...

The gimmick is being like Superman. Which is why we separated out
character who were like Superman and ones that had the same power set.

> Even peak human is more of a skill of sorts...unless the character got
> there artificially like Cap, then it's more like a power.

> I suppose any of these could actually be a "gimmick" too for certain
> characters (like with the archers)...but that is not the case for most
> of the characters we've listed in these characters...and certainly not
> for those like Batman that land in multiple categories.

Hm.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 00:40:34 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>On Oct 28, 3:21 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >But is that his gimmick?
>> You haven't been addressing "gimmicks" until your previous post.
>
>Short hand for thing that defines him.
>
>Batman - Urban vigilante, Detective, Peak Human.

These are not what I would call "gimmicks"...a character's gimmick
would the the one trait, characteristic, or accessory they are BEST
known for...ask the average person (fan or not) what batman's
"gimmick" is and doubt very much anyone is going to say "urban
vigilante" or "Peak Human"...I suppose they might say something about
his being a detective but, most likely, you're going to hear something
like "Dark Knight" or "dresses like a bat."

>Not
>Batman - Urban vigilante, Detective, Peak Human, Weapon User (all
>types).
>
>> >> As for urban vigilante, it fits...but, as you've been saying all
>> >> along, some will fit more than one category and you certainly can't
>> >> put Punisher and Batman in the same category without differentiating
>> >> between them somehow.
>> >Why?  The point between the categories isn't to differentiate between
>> >them.
>
>> Any true categorization of these characters would illustrate the
>> differences as well as the similarities...certainly if characters
>> appear on multiple lists.
>
>True. But it doesn't have to.

If it doesn't then there's no point.

>> >But do they have the gimmick "can use any weapons"?
>> I wouldn't say their "gimmick" has anything to do with weapons at
>> all...but they always use them.
>
>Arsenal's gimmick was he can use any weapon.
>Green Arrow's gimmick is he uses a bow.

But most heroes don't have such a clear-cut gimmick...at least not
like you're thinking.

>> >> Using a gun is a betrayal of a defining feature of the character...I'd
>> >> say that's just as important...but, even taking guns out of the
>> >> equation, he uses pretty much every type of weapon imaginable.
>> >Agreed, but is he known for it?
>> Other than guns, I would say he is known for using all types of
>> weapons...
>
>Known for it? If you asked someone what Batman was known for it would
>be "using a wide range of weapons"?

Ask someone what weapons Batman uses and you would likely hear "all
kinds" or "everything but guns."

When we started making these categories, we never said we were
limiting it to "gimmicks" or even to what they are "known for"...based
on what we started with and the genesis of this discussion, I assumed
we were mainly categorizing abilities.

>> >Batman can use a bow.  I wouldn't put him in the Archer category.
>> He probably can use a bow...but it's not something he does regularly
>> and he certainly wouldn't be an expert on par with Green Arrow...the
>> difference is the archers actually have a specialized skill set that
>> they mostly stick to...Batman and the others I mentioned have a much
>> more general skill set that needs to be taken into account.
>
>So a character who was known for using all types of weapons at expert
>level

A character who was ABLE to use all types of weapons at expert
level...and, yes, "known for"...at least among people who actually
know the characters in question.

>> >What he does as a cop isn't what he does as Nightwing.
>> Again, I'm judging by skills...not perception.
>
>Then you're missing the point I think.

Missing YOUR point, certainly...because you waited quite a while to
share it with the class.

>> >> Then we need to be clear here...because, up until now, most of
>> >> categorization has been according to ability (either powers or
>> >> skills)...not gimmick...
>> >Examples.
>> For the Superman archetype, it's not just a gimmick...it's a set of
>> powers...
>
>The gimmick is being like Superman. Which is why we separated out
>character who were like Superman and ones that had the same power set.

If that were true, then Captain Marvel wouldn't still be in the
category...he's not really like Superman much at all other than having
hte same power set.

Thor, however, cannot fly on his own and has no heat vision...and
Superman doesn't command lightning...these are the reasons I didn't
think he belonged in the category...he has a different power set.

[Ala]

"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:abafa7587l6q614go...@4ax.com...

> VERY hard to draw that line...especially when a lot of them have had
> formal training as samurai, ninja, etc...and very few of them could be
> said to be purely martial artists without falling into the urban
> vigilante or ultimate human categories.
>

"No matter what accomplishments you make, somebody helps you."--wilma
rudolph