Marvels 2 -> Astro City: Dark Age

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Lee K. Seitz

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Oct 19, 2005, 11:52:42 PM10/19/05
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It's been stated before that ASTRO CITY: THE DARK AGE developed from
the Busiek's proposal for MARVELS 2. MARVELS 2 was to be a sequel to
MARVELS, picking up pretty much where the previous series left off,
IIRC. Is there enough of the original story left to identify which
Astro City characters/events have taken the part of which Marvel
characters/events? I figure the Blue Knight has taken the Punisher's
role. Beyond that, I'm clueless. Yes, I know the First Family
equates well to the Fantastic Four, but does their storyline in THE
DARK AGE fit anything in the FF's history or some other group's? Any
observations? And yes, Kurt, you are more than welcome to chime in.

--
lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net
Nuke me with the New!

Kurt Busiek

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Oct 20, 2005, 1:08:08 AM10/20/05
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Good luck. I changed a lot.

kdb
--
Read an ASTRO CITY story for FREE, at: 
http://www.dccomics.com/features/astro/ 

Astrobiochemist

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Oct 20, 2005, 11:00:04 AM10/20/05
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Jack-in-the-box's role probably would have been filled in by
Spider-man, with the exchange between the cops about get the criminals
out of the "webbing."

Was the beginning story, where the hereos are helping people after a
major disaster an analog for Secret Wars 2 (which weren't so secret) or
something else?

The Silver Agent atory seems like an Astro-city original idea since I
can't think of a popular hero who was villified and then respected
after he died in Marvel canon.

Kurt Busiek

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Oct 20, 2005, 12:43:28 PM10/20/05
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Some of the things you're asking about are discussed in the lettercol
to #4. There was indeed a Marvel hero jailed for murder in the early
70s -- but as noted, I changed a lot of the hero-stuff to translate it
to Astro City, and it went in far different directions.

SECRET WARS II, though, was mid-80s.

~consul

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Oct 20, 2005, 1:10:38 PM10/20/05
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Kurt Busiek wrote:
> On 2005-10-20 08:00:04 -0700, "Astrobiochemist" <CCSB...@yahoo.com> said:
>> The Silver Agent atory seems like an Astro-city original idea since I
>> can't think of a popular hero who was villified and then respected
>> after he died in Marvel canon.
> Some of the things you're asking about are discussed in the lettercol to
> #4. There was indeed a Marvel hero jailed for murder in the early 70s
> -- but as noted, I changed a lot of the hero-stuff to translate it to
> Astro City, and it went in far different directions.

It looks like (on here) that it could also be a reference to Vance Astro, who
was charged and convicted of his dad's murder?
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these
Trials, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

Kurt Busiek

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Oct 20, 2005, 1:26:21 PM10/20/05
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On 2005-10-20 10:10:38 -0700, ~consul <con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> said:

> Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2005-10-20 08:00:04 -0700, "Astrobiochemist" <CCSB...@yahoo.com> said:
>>> The Silver Agent atory seems like an Astro-city original idea since I
>>> can't think of a popular hero who was villified and then respected
>>> after he died in Marvel canon.
>> Some of the things you're asking about are discussed in the lettercol
>> to #4. There was indeed a Marvel hero jailed for murder in the early
>> 70s -- but as noted, I changed a lot of the hero-stuff to translate it
>> to Astro City, and it went in far different directions.
>
> It looks like (on here) that it could also be a reference to Vance
> Astro, who was charged and convicted of his dad's murder?

That was the 1990s, so no.

Keith Baird

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Oct 20, 2005, 1:45:33 PM10/20/05
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"Astrobiochemist" <CCSB...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The Silver Agent atory seems like an Astro-city original idea

The "inspiration" for Silver Agent is pretty clearly Kirby's (Golden)
Guardian, in terms of visual design if not in terms of backstory.

> since I can't think of a popular hero who was villified and then
> respected after he died in Marvel canon.

Who ever dies in Marvel canon?

--/<eith

Brian Doyle

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Oct 20, 2005, 1:58:06 PM10/20/05
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"Keith Baird" <keith...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:keith.baird-5479...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...

Uncle Ben and Cypher (Bucky and T'bird I used to be on the list, but...)

Jon J. Yeager

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Oct 20, 2005, 2:25:14 PM10/20/05
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"Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:2005102009432816807%kurtbusiek@aolcomics...

>
> SECRET WARS II, though, was mid-80s.

Greatest crossover event of all time.

I find it ridiculous TODAY, but back then, as a kid, I found it fantastic,
and couldn't get the next issue (and all the crossovers) fast enough. It
made me buy titles I never would have bought just because the Beyonder was
guest-appearing. It's how I discovered Alpha Flight (Beyonder used Shaman's
pouch to get Talisman back) and New Mutants (he turned them into zombies)
and even Fantastic Four (probably one of the greatest single issues of all
time was the one where the big B talked Johnny out of quitting being the
Human Torch after some kid.. Tommy Hanson? God, if I actually remembered the
name correctly, then I'm freaking awesome.. anyway, after this kid lit
himself on fire to be be like him.

In hindsight, the Beyonder was completely out of character in that issue and
was obviously used just to get kids like me to crossover more, but it
worked. Kudos to Shooter and everyone at Marvel back then.

It's funny, I'd get hyped for an event and await each issue with
anticipation, and never felt cheated when it was all over. Today, we've got
Hawkeye dying, resurrecting and dying again in the span of a single year,
Fabian telling people the guy in the Ant Man helmet "is really him!" when
I'm told it'll turn out to be Pym instead, promises of HoM not being another
Heroes Reborn when it was exactly that, teased explanations for Wolverine
being an Avenger that were never really made, etc..

The bottom is bound to give out again, like it did during the Liefeld days.

Jon
--
"There's a woman at work who has the hots
for me -- works in my dept. whenever she
can -- but I'm not interested."
(Cryptic Steven R. Stahl Quote)


Oberon

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Oct 20, 2005, 2:49:03 PM10/20/05
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I confess to also really liking the S.Wars 2 when it came out. Not as
much as the first one, but come on, some of those cross overs were
funny and incredible.

Of the highlights I remember most:

Peter Parker wondering how to deal with the Beyonder answering "the
call to nature"

Phoenix / Rachel taking on the power... very cool, still visually so
cool.

Hate Monger transforming (ultimatley) Sue into Invisible "Woman"

Oberon

Christian Smith

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Oct 20, 2005, 2:52:13 PM10/20/05
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On 20 Oct 2005 11:49:03 -0700,"Oberon" <Ol3...@hotmail.com> wrote

>Phoenix / Rachel taking on the power... very cool, still visually so
>cool.

Loved that, finally Rachel came into her own and stopped whining her
Daddy didn't know her

Personally, my favourite SW2 stuff was the X-men issues and the Deaths
of all the New Mutants/ Illyana and Kitty after Illyana becomes a
messenger for the Beyonder

Geez, why in hells name aren't we getting Essential New Mutants!

Christian
--
"The Dark Phoenix may have been a threat to all life in the universe...
But she had great taste in costumes." (Rachel Summers Excalibur #65)

Jon J. Yeager

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Oct 20, 2005, 5:31:28 PM10/20/05
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"Oberon" <Ol3...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129834143.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

How about Puma being sent by his people to kill the Beyonder? HA HA HA..
Puma.. killing the Beyonder.. anyway. He recruited Spider-Man to help him
(because with Spidey's help, NOW they were unstoppable).

How about that Thing issue where he's got the Beyonder in the ring with him
and actually has a chance to kill him and won't do it? Came close to, but
didn't. Even as a kid, I never thought for a moment there was a chance in
hell he'd do it... but it was a fun read too, like everything else that
touched this crossover event.

Of course, if Secret Wars II happened today, everyone would be posting about
how predictable the ending to that story is, so just to swerve everyone,
Bendis would change his plans and actually have Thing kill the Beyonder
without thinking of the bigger picture. D'oh! The Beyonder's dead and
there's 4 more issues of SWII to write in the main mini.

Quick! Wanda! Fix this!

Whew, that was close. He was almost in a jam, there.

Jon
--
"Well, I don't know... the Red Skull isn't really that
Aryan. But he does give Nazi's a bad name... "
- Chris C.


Nick Eden

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Oct 20, 2005, 6:01:22 PM10/20/05
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On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:10:38 -0700, ~consul
<con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote:

>Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2005-10-20 08:00:04 -0700, "Astrobiochemist" <CCSB...@yahoo.com> said:
>>> The Silver Agent atory seems like an Astro-city original idea since I
>>> can't think of a popular hero who was villified and then respected
>>> after he died in Marvel canon.
>> Some of the things you're asking about are discussed in the lettercol to
>> #4. There was indeed a Marvel hero jailed for murder in the early 70s
>> -- but as noted, I changed a lot of the hero-stuff to translate it to
>> Astro City, and it went in far different directions.
>
>It looks like (on here) that it could also be a reference to Vance Astro, who
>was charged and convicted of his dad's murder?

Luke Cage is the one that springs to my mind.

Brian Doyle

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Oct 20, 2005, 7:29:32 PM10/20/05
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"Christian Smith" <chri...@jasdigital.com> wrote in message
news:anpfl1d9j02c4u37m...@4ax.com...

> On 20 Oct 2005 11:49:03 -0700,"Oberon" <Ol3...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> >Phoenix / Rachel taking on the power... very cool, still visually so
> >cool.
>
> Loved that, finally Rachel came into her own and stopped whining her
> Daddy didn't know her
>
> Personally, my favourite SW2 stuff was the X-men issues and the Deaths
> of all the New Mutants/ Illyana

It was a striking series of deaths, especially as they essentially retconned
them out of existence, they were not only dead, they never EXISTED.

It was a crappy ressuection though; "I will rebirth them from a machine...
which will not only clothe them just as they were before and restore all
their memories up to their relevant ages, but undo the retcon I just made...
The recreating I could understand, but love 'em though I do, the NM would
NOT be my chosen strike team, and the undoing of the retcon within a single
issue seemed to render the notion of the retcon pretty weak.

Christian Henriksson

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Oct 21, 2005, 12:25:45 PM10/21/05
to
Lo and behold, on Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:58:06 +0100 "Brian Doyle"
<no...@nospam.com> sayeth thus:

Gwen Stacy also used to be on the list, so I guess chances are pretty
good for Cypher. Uncle Ben is a bit harder, since he's so tightly
woven into Spider-Man's origin story.


Christian Henriksson
(christian.henriksson @ comhem.se)
--
"Keep the city clean!
Eat a pigeon every day."

David Johnston

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Oct 21, 2005, 1:39:49 PM10/21/05
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On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:25:45 +0200, Christian Henriksson
<ora...@passagen.se> wrote:


>>> Who ever dies in Marvel canon?
>>
>>Uncle Ben and Cypher (Bucky and T'bird I used to be on the list, but...)
>
>Gwen Stacy also used to be on the list,

The real Gwen Stacy is still dead.

lione...@yahoo.com

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Oct 21, 2005, 5:14:38 PM10/21/05
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Jon J. Yeager wrote:
> "Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
> news:2005102009432816807%kurtbusiek@aolcomics...
> >
> > SECRET WARS II, though, was mid-80s.
>
> Greatest crossover event of all time.
>
> I find it ridiculous TODAY, but back then, as a kid, I found it fantastic,
> and couldn't get the next issue (and all the crossovers) fast enough. It
> made me buy titles I never would have bought just because the Beyonder was
> guest-appearing. It's how I discovered Alpha Flight (Beyonder used Shaman's
> pouch to get Talisman back) and New Mutants (he turned them into zombies)
> and even Fantastic Four (probably one of the greatest single issues of all
> time was the one where the big B talked Johnny out of quitting being the
> Human Torch after some kid.. Tommy Hanson? God, if I actually remembered the
> name correctly, then I'm freaking awesome.. anyway, after this kid lit
> himself on fire to be be like him.
>

The above story regarding the kid and the torch hapened in relation to
Secret Wars I. What was Secret Wars II?

Joe

Jon J. Yeager

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Oct 21, 2005, 5:25:53 PM10/21/05
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<lione...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129929278.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

You err. It was Secret Wars II. The Beyonder did not have a form in SWI.

Maybe you should be asking what Secret Wars I was..? ;-)

Kurt Busiek

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Oct 21, 2005, 6:09:35 PM10/21/05
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On 2005-10-21 14:14:38 -0700, lione...@yahoo.com said:

> The above story regarding the kid and the torch hapened in relation to
> Secret Wars I. What was Secret Wars II?

The above story was indeed a SECRET WARS II tie-in:

http://www.missfantastic.com/images/covers/originalseries/byrne/285.htm

SECRET WARS I was where they were all off on Battleworld. The Beyonder
bopping around in NYC is II.

lo...@my-deja.com

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Oct 21, 2005, 6:30:35 PM10/21/05
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Kurt Busiek escreveu:


> Some of the things you're asking about are discussed in the lettercol
> to #4. There was indeed a Marvel hero jailed for murder in the early
> 70s -- but as noted, I changed a lot of the hero-stuff to translate it
> to Astro City, and it went in far different directions.


Issues #169-170, right? :)

And things were just beginning to warm up... that was my favorite
storyline of that character, _ever_.

Weren't Black Widow and/or DD criminally prosecuted for murder
somewhere during their San Francisco partnership? IIRC it had to do
with Mr. Kline's duplicates of Mr. Hyde and Scorpion.

Kurt Busiek

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Oct 21, 2005, 7:19:43 PM10/21/05
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On 2005-10-21 15:30:35 -0700, lo...@my-deja.com said:

> Kurt Busiek escreveu:
>
>> Some of the things you're asking about are discussed in the lettercol
>> to #4. There was indeed a Marvel hero jailed for murder in the early
>> 70s -- but as noted, I changed a lot of the hero-stuff to translate it
>> to Astro City, and it went in far different directions.
>
> Issues #169-170, right? :)

...and as you can see, virtually no resemblance left.

> Weren't Black Widow and/or DD criminally prosecuted for murder
> somewhere during their San Francisco partnership? IIRC it had to do
> with Mr. Kline's duplicates of Mr. Hyde and Scorpion.

The Widow was, yes -- though it was shortly before they moved to San
Francisco. And I think the story hinged on Foggy being blackmailed to
prosecute, or some such.

lo...@my-deja.com

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Oct 22, 2005, 2:04:29 AM10/22/05
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<< > Issues #169-170, right? :)

...and as you can see, virtually no resemblance left. >>

To be fair, I assumed as much. In fact, I still do, since AC:TDA is
not yet available here in Brazil :)

But I know better than to expect plain, unimproved recycling of plots
from you, Kurt. I was re-reading the trade paperback of the first
volume of Astro City just recently and I was impressed by how strong
the sensation of a multitude of plots happening all around the place
instead of just conveniently at the vicinity of the characters I follow
is, even in a second reading.

I am particularly fond of your use of the Living Nightmare. The
feeling that he was a powerful physical opponent was strong, and yet
his symbolic presence was stronger still. Samaritan's inner monologue
was very moving at that scene.

Best,
Luis

Christian Henriksson

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Oct 22, 2005, 11:12:56 AM10/22/05
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Lo and behold, on Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:39:49 GMT rgo...@block.net
(David Johnston) sayeth thus:

True, but at least she's been cloned.

And her being dead doesn't seem to stop people from adding to her

lione...@yahoo.com

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Oct 24, 2005, 4:41:58 PM10/24/05
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Ok, my bad. It's been so long I must have conflated the two in my
head.

Joe

Jon J. Yeager

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Oct 24, 2005, 7:00:46 PM10/24/05
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<lione...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1130186518....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Ok, my bad. It's been so long I must have conflated
> the two in my head.

Np.. conflating's a bitch.

Jon
--
"The goal is sales, after all, and Marvel already has
SRS and Shawn's money every month. What would
they have to gain by taking their complaints seriously?
Rendering them content to the point where they stop
buying the books, maybe? How is fewer sales anykind
of motivation for Marvel to change anything?"


Brian Henderson

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Oct 25, 2005, 11:47:51 AM10/25/05
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On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:25:45 +0200, Christian Henriksson
<ora...@passagen.se> wrote:

>Gwen Stacy also used to be on the list, so I guess chances are pretty
>good for Cypher. Uncle Ben is a bit harder, since he's so tightly
>woven into Spider-Man's origin story.

It would be nice if these characters didn't come back but they do in
one form or another. That horrid abortion of a story in ASM with Gwen
Stacy's kids, Uncle Ben showing up in dreams, etc.

Dead characters should all stay dead, period.

Kevin J. Maroney

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Nov 6, 2005, 4:17:46 PM11/6/05
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On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:52:42 -0000, lks...@see.my.sig (Lee K. Seitz)
wrote:

>It's been stated before that ASTRO CITY: THE DARK AGE developed from
>the Busiek's proposal for MARVELS 2. MARVELS 2 was to be a sequel to
>MARVELS, picking up pretty much where the previous series left off,
>IIRC. Is there enough of the original story left to identify which
>Astro City characters/events have taken the part of which Marvel
>characters/events? I figure the Blue Knight has taken the Punisher's
>role. Beyond that, I'm clueless. Yes, I know the First Family
>equates well to the Fantastic Four, but does their storyline in THE
>DARK AGE fit anything in the FF's history or some other group's? Any
>observations? And yes, Kurt, you are more than welcome to chime in.

The background world-wide event is Dormammu's attack on the main
Marvel universe at the end of the Avengers/Defenders War; the Silver
Agent's trial is based on Captain America's false conviction at the
hands of the Secret Empire. (Both stories by Steve Englehart.) I
suspect there are other correspondences, but as Kurt said, he changed
a lot, so I'm not sure what is gained by guessing at them.

--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com Š 2003 by Kevin J. Maroney
"Love doesn't have a point. Love *is* the point."--Alan Moore

If you are reading this message on the "Comics-N-Such" message boards,
know that it has been copied onto that forum without my permission.

Lee K. Seitz

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Nov 8, 2005, 6:09:34 PM11/8/05
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In article <i3ssm1hkers0gcc9t...@4ax.com>,

Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:52:42 -0000, lks...@see.my.sig (Lee K. Seitz)
>wrote:
>>It's been stated before that ASTRO CITY: THE DARK AGE developed from
>>the Busiek's proposal for MARVELS 2.
[snip]

>>Is there enough of the original story left to identify which
>>Astro City characters/events have taken the part of which Marvel
>>characters/events?

>The background world-wide event is Dormammu's attack on the main


>Marvel universe at the end of the Avengers/Defenders War; the Silver
>Agent's trial is based on Captain America's false conviction at the
>hands of the Secret Empire. (Both stories by Steve Englehart.) I
>suspect there are other correspondences, but as Kurt said, he changed
>a lot, so I'm not sure what is gained by guessing at them.

It's mainly an exercise in curiosity. Unfortunately, I'm not
knowledgable enough in that period of Marvel history to recognize
everything.

My query was mainly prompted by reading the bit about a character not
believing that a superhero was really going around killing criminals
because that's simply not how they worked. Up until then I'd
forgotten the MARVELS 2 connection, but this instantly reminded me of
the Punisher. I just wondered what I might be missing that others are
seeing.

--
lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net
". . . I hesitated about giving up the assistant editorship with Allen
[Milgrom], just because I didn't want to give up _Rom_ because I knew
I'd miss that so much." -- Mary Jo Duffy, _Comics Feature_ #17

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