New Mutants.....who what where when why how
Blubotiko
Brian Fried
> Anyone know where each member is?
Cannonball is a member of X-FORCE.
Mirage, later Moonstar, was with X-Force, but has disappeared. She will
probably show up in an upcoming issue of X-Men, given her guest appearance
in X-MEN #99.
Sunspot now is a member of the new Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club.
Wolfsbane can be seen in WARLOCK, where she helps to fight Mainspring.
Karma is living in New York with two girls. She was last seen in X-FORCE #75.
Magma was last seen as a member of the New Hellions, an enemy of X-Force's.
Magik is, depending on your interpretation of events in "Inferno," dead.
Cypher is dead. However, his memories are in the resurrected Warlock
currently starring in his own series until April, when it is cancelled.
Bird Brain was last seen living on his home island.
Boom Boom, later Boomer and now Meltdown, is with X-FORCE.
Rictor is living in Mexico, where he is seeking to shut down his family's
criminal organization. He was last seen in X-FORCE 1999.
Rusty Collins was killed by Holocaust (now Nemesis, to be politically
correct) in X-MEN #43.
Skids Blevin was last seen in X-Force as a student in a Colorado college
who now has to live with her secret being out in the open.
Warlock's ashes mixed with Cypher's corpse. The mixture was resurrected by
the Phalanx and given the new designation Douglock. Recently, the Warlock
and Doug Ramsey personalities reasserted themselves, and he's back to
Warlock, the star of his own short-lived series.
Shatterstar is helping Rictor.
Thunderbird II, later Warpath and now Proudstar, is with X-FORCE.
Feral was last seen as a member of the New Hellions, an enemy of X-Force.
Domino was a member of X-Force, but she's going on sabatical effective
this month.
Cable has left X-Force to their own devices and is now an UNCANNY X-MaN.
Copycat was last seen living with Weapon X (Kane) in San Francisco.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Fried bfr...@chat.carleton.ca Carleton U., Ottawa, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"What do you say? Will the human race be run in a day?
Or will someone save this planet we're playing on?"
Paul McCartney, 'Pipes Of Peace', 1983
----------------------------------------------------------------------
JudiusP
Moonstar and Proudstar don't call themselves Mirage and Warpath anymore? Sorry,
I dont read X-Force. So do they just go by their last names now?
Orange
wisdom with us all:
>Anyone know where each member is?
I don't know when you last read about 'em, so I'm going to suppose
that you haven't read anything since NM 100.
Cannonball - member of X-force.
Sunspot - recently joined the Hellfire Club, because Selene made him
an offer he couldn't refuse.
Wolfsbane - helps Moira at Muir Isle. Currently seen in Warlock's mag.
Karma - was seen in X-force 75, hanging out with a couple of
filmmaking girls.
Mirage - now prefers to not use a codename. She seems to have left the
team between X-force 101 and 102, recently published.
Magma - after it was revealed that the whole Nova Roma existence was a
sham put on by Selene, she became rather pissed off, and last we saw
her (X-force 90), she left the New Hellions (bad guys).
Magik - the little Illyana who emerged after Inferno died of the
Legacy Virus in Unc. X-men 303.
Warlock - has his own book now, but it's going to be cancelled.
Cypher - dead (although his memory still lives in Warlock).
Magneto - now rules Genosha. Last seen in Unc. X-men 380.
Boom-Boom - now calls herself Meltdown and is a current member of
X-force.
Rusty Collins - was brainwashed into joining the MLF, later joined
Magneto's Acolytes and was killed in X-men 42.
Skids - left the Acolytes after Rusty was killed and has gone back to
studying. Was last seen in X-force 85.
Rictor - joined X-force and participated in a lot of adventures and
then retired again to try to stop his own gunrunning family. Last seen
in the 1999 X-force annual.
Cable - left X-force for a while, then returned to lead them. Then he
left again. Is now going to be a member of X-men. Has his own comic
book.
Domino - was revealed to be the metamorph Copycat. She was thrown out
of X-force and now (possibly) lives together with Garrison Kane. Last
seen in Cable 39. (The real Domino later joined X-force and seems to
have left the team between issues 101 and 102.)
Warpath - now prefers not to use a codename. Member of X-force.
Shatterstar - left X-force to help Rictor out with his family. Last
seen in the 1999 X-force annual.
Feral - was revealed to be a murderer and sent to prison for her
crimes. Then she joined the new Hellions. Revealed to have contracted
the Legacy Virus. Last seen in X-force 90.
Christian Henriksson
--
"My name is Joe Public, I'm sure you all know me.
Sometimes, they call me the great unwashed, but I don't mind."
-Neil Innes
Dan McEwen
>Moonstar and Proudstar don't call themselves Mirage and Warpath anymore? Sorry,
>I dont read X-Force. So do they just go by their last names now?
Pretty much so. Dani Moonstar showed up in, I think, X-FORCE #28.
She was wearing a mask, and her powers had changed, but it was pretty
obvious who she was. When she eventually joined X-Force, she never
bothered to choose a code name.
James Proudstar had a specific reason for changing his name. He
called himself 'Warpath' because he was, literally, on the warpath to
avenge the deaths of his tribes. Once that was done, he no longer
felt the need to continue with that name. Moreover, the Warpath name
does not fit James at the present time.
Dan #1617
William Roberts
X - Force should consist of most of the old New Mutants btw. Changes
are good, but there should be some resemblance to th epast and origin.
The team and their powers from NM #35 is my favorite.
WR
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
COMICS HEART American comics to nearly half the price
http://members.xoom.com/AsterdiS/main.html
Even more comics added!!! Some with even more than 50
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De Parker
> On 18 Mar 2000 23:07:37 GMT, jud...@aol.com (JudiusP) wrote:
> >Moonstar and Proudstar don't call themselves Mirage and Warpath anymore?
Sorry,
> >I dont read X-Force. So do they just go by their last names now?
> Pretty much so. Dani Moonstar showed up in, I think, X-FORCE #28.
> She was wearing a mask, and her powers had changed, but it was pretty
> obvious who she was. When she eventually joined X-Force, she never
> bothered to choose a code name.
> James Proudstar had a specific reason for changing his name. He
> called himself 'Warpath' because he was, literally, on the warpath to
> avenge the deaths of his tribes. Once that was done, he no longer
> felt the need to continue with that name. Moreover, the Warpath name
> does not fit James at the present time.
If you think about it, that explanation and change was made by Moore back
when X-Force was turned into the Mutant Friends Club. Until Moore came, you
could get the idea that Jimmy had problems dealing with his aggression.
Character flaws are good, and without this, Jimmy got dull really quick.
Granted, he probably took the name because he was angry, but Jimmy's never
been a cheerful guy. He was even angry in the issue of X-Men Classics that
featured his brother's funeral. That's something I actually miss about
Jimmy. "Warpath" would have been the perfect name for him in his very first
appearance when he beat down Banshee. Actually, "Warpath" is just a great
codename. Now that X-Force has become a mutant strike force again and
doesn't just react to their friends and innocents getting into trouble or
hearing bad news, Jimmy is back "on the warpath" as the X-Force war party
starts kicking some heads in again.
dp
De Parker
> X - Force should consist of most of the old New Mutants btw. Changes
> are good, but there should be some resemblance to th epast and origin.
> The team and their powers from NM #35 is my favorite.
No, X-Force shouldn't consist mostly of New Mutants. Unless you count the
X-Terminators, Sam, Bobby, and Rahne are the only ones I care to see
regularly, and Rahne, and even Bobby to some degree, don't quite fit. When
he 1st joined X-Force, he was Sam's friend for a while. Dani might be OK if
she gets her old powers back. Even still, this is a different team with a
different purpose. When I think X-Force, I think of Sam, Jimmy, Star, and
Tab. I figure 3 of them need to be on the team.
dp
JJ
I agree for the most part. I've always felt that X-Force was just a bad concept
made good by good writers (Nicieza, Moore) and awful by the others (Loeb, for
example). I'd rather the New Mutants never have ended (although maybe a name
change) but that they stayed in the mansion along with the X-Men and maybe
continued their education at some nice college in New York or something. The
whole story with Sally was something I really enjoyed, and was hoping X-Force
would take a turn in that direction (too bad Bobbie Chase left as editor around
then and we got Jason Liebig, grrrrr)
-JJAM-
Gorok190
>X-Terminators, Sam, Bobby, and Rahne are the only ones I care to see
>regularly, and Rahne, and even Bobby to some degree, don't quite fit.
I agree. I really want to read a book with the New Mutant and X-Terminator
characters on the team, but X-Force isn't appropriate. Maybe something new,
something less proactive. It would be interesting to see two different teams
consisting of the same group of friends but with different ideologies on how to
handle super heroics.
-Drew
"What do the Republicans have to do with cancer?"
"Nothing. They just go where the evil is."
- Duckman
Gorok190
>concept
>made good by good writers (Nicieza, Moore) and awful by the others (Loeb, for
>example).
Amen to that. I never cared for the X-Force concept either. Everything I liked
about the New Mutants was dropped when they made the changeover, even my
favorite characters. I wish someone would do something to save all the
characters that have or are on their way to Limbo right now.
Skids
Leech
Artie
Magik
Siryn
Madrox
Moonstar
Sunspot
Warlock
Karma
Wolfsbane
Richtor
That's a lot of friggin characters. A lot of these people never saw any kind of
end to their story either. I hope something is done soon. Btw, I'll be scanning
that poster of the New Mutant team that never happened tonight. The one done by
Liefeld during Days of Future Present and before X-Tinction Agenda. If anyone
wants a copy let me know, and I may put it up on X-Fan too if I can.
Gorok190
>Leech
>Artie
>Magik
>Siryn
>Madrox
>Moonstar
>Sunspot
>Warlock
>Karma
>Wolfsbane
>Richtor
Add Magma, Gossymer, and Bird Boy to that list.
Dan McEwen
Roberts) wrote:
> X - Force should consist of most of the old New Mutants btw. Changes
>are good, but there should be some resemblance to th epast and origin.
>The team and their powers from NM #35 is my favorite.
Considering that X-Force is *not* the New Mutants, I can't see any
reason why the team should consist mostly of the old New Mutants. Or
should X-Men also consist of Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, and
Angel?
Dan #1617
Gorok190
>Cable now ( For Eric , the review for #79 should be coming soon , when I get
>a chance to catch a breath , I´m in exams right now ) , and Limited Series .
X-51, Warlock, X-Men: The Hidden Years and Gambit. Miscellenous stuff too, but
I'm behind on this. Hopefully I'll be closer to being done tonight. And after
that, maybe some other stuff. Just AOLIM me if you want to chat. :)
De Parker
> De Parker wrote:
> > William Roberts <strangerk...@c2i.net> wrote
> > > X - Force should consist of most of the old New Mutants btw. Changes
> > > are good, but there should be some resemblance to th epast and origin.
> > > The team and their powers from NM #35 is my favorite.
> > No, X-Force shouldn't consist mostly of New Mutants. Unless you count
the
> > X-Terminators, Sam, Bobby, and Rahne are the only ones I care to see
> > regularly, and Rahne, and even Bobby to some degree, don't quite fit.
When
> > he 1st joined X-Force, he was Sam's friend for a while. Dani might be
OK if
> > she gets her old powers back. Even still, this is a different team with
a
> > different purpose. When I think X-Force, I think of Sam, Jimmy, Star,
and
> > Tab. I figure 3 of them need to be on the team.
> Moonstar, Darkchilde, Wolfsbane, Karma, Magma, Reignfire (bobby of
> course, not the stupid explanation invented later), rictor and Skids and
> Rusty.
> that is "the new mutants of marvel, no matter what they're currently
> being called.
I'm not even sure I know what you're saying. Is this a list of character
you would like to see or what? Just to reiterate, X-Force is not the New
Mutants. Only one current member was a New Mutant back in the days when
most think of them. Tab's an X-Terminator. I wouldn't mind a second
x-titles featuring former New Mutants, but Sam leads X-Force, no
X-Terminators would fit in on that team, and Jimmy stays with X-Force.
dp
Orange
mag...@debitel.net
Gorok190 schrieb in Nachricht
<20000319174441...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
>That's a lot of friggin characters. A lot of these people never saw any
kind of
>end to their story either. I hope something is done soon. Btw, I'll be
scanning
>that poster of the New Mutant team that never happened tonight. The one
done by
>Liefeld during Days of Future Present and before X-Tinction Agenda. If
anyone
>wants a copy let me know, and I may put it up on X-Fan too if I can.
>
>
>-Drew
>
>Goro...@aol.com
Hereæ„€ one person who wants it . :)
So , you愉e contributing to X-Fan , too ? What do you write ? I惴 doing
Cable now ( For Eric , the review for #79 should be coming soon , when I get
a chance to catch a breath , I惴 in exams right now ) , and Limited Series .
Magnus
ShadowWalker
>
> William Roberts <strangerk...@c2i.net> wrote
>
> > X - Force should consist of most of the old New Mutants btw. Changes
> > are good, but there should be some resemblance to th epast and origin.
> > The team and their powers from NM #35 is my favorite.
>
> No, X-Force shouldn't consist mostly of New Mutants. Unless you count the
> X-Terminators, Sam, Bobby, and Rahne are the only ones I care to see
> regularly, and Rahne, and even Bobby to some degree, don't quite fit. When
> he 1st joined X-Force, he was Sam's friend for a while. Dani might be OK if
> she gets her old powers back. Even still, this is a different team with a
> different purpose. When I think X-Force, I think of Sam, Jimmy, Star, and
> Tab. I figure 3 of them need to be on the team.
>
Moonstar, Darkchilde, Wolfsbane, Karma, Magma, Reignfire (bobby of
course, not the stupid explanation invented later), rictor and Skids and
Rusty.
that is "the new mutants of marvel, no matter what they're currently
being called.
Amos
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
< My address at midnight: >
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/ ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
Fire of the Storyteller:
http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/firewind.html
http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100379/firewind2.html
"They worry when they see us, when they feel us, and they are angry,
because we’re showing them that Life is different, showing them that
the human spirit is still alive".
Amos Keppler - One year of the Abyss
ShadowWalker
>
> >I agree for the most part. I've always felt that X-Force was just a bad
> >concept
> >made good by good writers (Nicieza, Moore) and awful by the others (Loeb, for
> >example).
>
> Amen to that. I never cared for the X-Force concept either. Everything I liked
> about the New Mutants was dropped when they made the changeover, even my
> favorite characters. I wish someone would do something to save all the
> characters that have or are on their way to Limbo right now.
>
> Leech
> Artie
> Magik
> Siryn
> Madrox
> Moonstar
> Sunspot
> Warlock
> Karma
> Wolfsbane
> Richtor
>
> end to their story either. I hope something is done soon. Btw, I'll be scanning
> that poster of the New Mutant team that never happened tonight. The one done by
> Liefeld during Days of Future Present and before X-Tinction Agenda. If anyone
> wants a copy let me know, and I may put it up on X-Fan too if I can.
>
That poster really showed great possiblities.
Then everything went... $#&898fu8
Gorok190
> Then everything went... $#&898fu8
That poster is the only reason I gave X-Force a chance. I bought New Mutants
and X-Force for the team, not a bunch of knock-offs of previous characters with
an ideaology that totally conflicted with 100 issues of three of my favorite
comics. I'm going to find out what happened, I don't care how. But one day I'll
figure out who made the choice to ruin the New Mutants.
-Drew
De Parker
> >That poster really showed great possiblities.
> > Then everything went... $#&898fu8
> That poster is the only reason I gave X-Force a chance. I bought New
Mutants
> and X-Force for the team, not a bunch of knock-offs of previous characters
with
> an ideaology that totally conflicted with 100 issues of three of my
favorite
> comics. I'm going to find out what happened, I don't care how. But one day
I'll
> figure out who made the choice to ruin the New Mutants.
The person who ruined the NEW MUTANTS is the same person who ruined
comics...Rob Liefeld. Granted, I was under the impression that NEW MUTANTS
wasn't selling and Liefeld, the promising young "artist" with the hip new
style, was brought on to pick things up. Then, it happened. He brought
upon us an abomination...a cipher known as Cable. This character ushered in
the era of big guns, mysterious pasts, cyborganic bodies, meaningless
codenames, and generic costumes to the comic world.
dp - kinda jokin'...but kinda serious
Gorok190
>comics...Rob Liefeld.
Maybe, but we don't know for sure if he made the choice or not to ditch that
roster he had concocted. It does seem a little odd he bothered to even draw it
if it was his intention. I want to know who decided against using that team.
And I want to know for sure before I start dragging anyone's names through mud.
But I already dislike Liefeld, so it would only add to my distaste for him if
it was his call. Anyone know anything out there?
mag...@debitel.net
Gorok190 schrieb in Nachricht
<20000319185801...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
>X-51, Warlock, X-Men: The Hidden Years and Gambit. Miscellenous stuff too,
but
>I'm behind on this. Hopefully I'll be closer to being done tonight. And
after
>that, maybe some other stuff. Just AOLIM me if you want to chat. :)
>
>
>-Drew
>
>Goro...@aol.com
>
>"What do the Republicans have to do with cancer?"
>"Nothing. They just go where the evil is."
> - Duckman
I´m preparing for some exams now , so I won´t have time for the next two
weeks , but then no problem . Thanks for the image !
Magnus
Dan McEwen
<gt5...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>William Roberts <strangerk...@c2i.net> wrote
>
>> X - Force should consist of most of the old New Mutants btw. Changes
>> are good, but there should be some resemblance to th epast and origin.
>> The team and their powers from NM #35 is my favorite.
>
>No, X-Force shouldn't consist mostly of New Mutants. Unless you count the
>X-Terminators, Sam, Bobby, and Rahne are the only ones I care to see
>regularly, and Rahne, and even Bobby to some degree, don't quite fit. When
>he 1st joined X-Force, he was Sam's friend for a while. Dani might be OK if
>she gets her old powers back. Even still, this is a different team with a
>different purpose. When I think X-Force, I think of Sam, Jimmy, Star, and
>Tab. I figure 3 of them need to be on the team.
Which old powers? At least she got her arrows back, which is sort of
a variant of her original powers. That's something. And you know
they need something that looks better visually than Dani standing
behind the corner of a building an projecting an image.
Dan #1617
Dan McEwen
>>Skids
>>Leech
>>Artie
>>Magik
>>Siryn
>>Madrox
>>Moonstar
>>Sunspot
>>Warlock
>>Karma
>>Wolfsbane
>>Richtor
>
>Add Magma, Gossymer, and Bird Boy to that list.
Except kill off the last two. :)
Dan #1617
Dan McEwen
<gt5...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>I'm not even sure I know what you're saying. Is this a list of character
>you would like to see or what? Just to reiterate, X-Force is not the New
>Mutants. Only one current member was a New Mutant back in the days when
>most think of them. Tab's an X-Terminator. I wouldn't mind a second
>x-titles featuring former New Mutants, but Sam leads X-Force, no
>X-Terminators would fit in on that team, and Jimmy stays with X-Force.
I've got to agree with you, De. X-Force is not the New Mutants. You
want New Mutants, go read New Mutants. The people I read about are no
longer anyone's students who have to sneak away on secret missions.
To my mind, the New Mutants were a group of students. X-Force is a
team in their own right, not subordinate to the X-Men.
Dan #1617
Dan McEwen
>>That poster really showed great possiblities.
>> Then everything went... $#&898fu8
>
>That poster is the only reason I gave X-Force a chance. I bought New Mutants
>and X-Force for the team, not a bunch of knock-offs of previous characters with
>an ideaology that totally conflicted with 100 issues of three of my favorite
>comics. I'm going to find out what happened, I don't care how. But one day I'll
>figure out who made the choice to ruin the New Mutants.
The NM were pretty much ruined as of issue #55. They had a
personality overhaul for the worse, and all became anorexic. Lots of
people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
people that do not like Liefield.
Dan #1617
De Parker
> Which old powers? At least she got her arrows back, which is sort of
> a variant of her original powers. That's something. And you know
> they need something that looks better visually than Dani standing
> behind the corner of a building an projecting an image.
That's a good point. What I meant was everything except her quantum powers,
but I forgot she lost those already. Don't forget that before her change in
powers, Dani gained the power to create solid 3D objects though.
dp
JJ
>personality overhaul for the worse, and all became anorexic. Lots of
>people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
>good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
>people that do not like Liefield.
I wouldn't say it was a good thing in comparison to the Simonson/Blevins run,
for during that run, at least we knew that Weezie *was* a competent writer, as
we had seen her amazing work on other books such as X-Factor and Power Pack. It
was the fans/editors who asked her to write the Muties as younger, for many
people before that had written in complaining that the New Mutants were written
too old and out of character for teenagers. Louise herself admits that in the
beginning she ended up writing a lot of the characters way too young (although
that is no excuse for Bird Boy =)
But I do completely agree that the New Mutants ended with issue #55. Which
really bothers me, because #53-54 were some of my favorites from the series...
-JJam-
Gorok190
>people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
>good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
>people that do not like Liefield.
Gack! *cough* Ack! *weez* {grabs chest}
WHAT?!?!? Show me who they are so I can terminate them one by one. Show me now.
Simonson's run may not have been as good as CC's, but I enjoyed them more than
Teen Rambo X. What was done to them during Leifeld's era is beyond words that I
can currently define. Or use without very heavy, colorful metaphors.
Dani
In article <20000319174441...@ng-cl1.aol.com>,
goro...@aol.com (Gorok190) wrote:
> >I agree for the most part. I've always felt that X-Force was just a
bad
> >concept
> >made good by good writers (Nicieza, Moore) and awful by the others
(Loeb, for
> >example).
>
> Amen to that. I never cared for the X-Force concept either.
Everything I liked
> about the New Mutants was dropped when they made the changeover, even
my
> favorite characters. I wish someone would do something to save all the
> characters that have or are on their way to Limbo right now.
>
> Skids
> Leech
> Artie
> Magik
> Siryn
> Madrox
> Moonstar
> Sunspot
> Warlock
> Karma
> Wolfsbane
> Richtor
>
> That's a lot of friggin characters. A lot of these people never saw
any kind of
> end to their story either. I hope something is done soon. Btw, I'll
be scanning
> that poster of the New Mutant team that never happened tonight. The
one done by
> Liefeld during Days of Future Present and before X-Tinction Agenda.
If anyone
> wants a copy let me know, and I may put it up on X-Fan too if I can.
>
> -Drew
>
> Goro...@aol.com
>
> "What do the Republicans have to do with cancer?"
> "Nothing. They just go where the evil is."
> - Duckman
>
--
To Asgard and Back - The Unofficial Dani Moonstar Website
http://www4.50megs.com/dani
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Brian Fried
Form the fourteen issues he did (#87-#100), take away three for the
"X-Tinction Agenda" crossover, and that puts you at 11. And the last three
were set-up for X-FORCE, and 87 was mostly clean-up from the previous run.
Look: while you may *love* THE NEW MUTANTS, it was clear that the title
was running into a clear problem. For one thing, they had stopped being
students by the end of "Inferno" almost entirely. They were unsupervised,
and it came down to either Magneto (who was going back to the villain,
since X-MEN #1 was also coming down the pipes) or Xavier (who was at the
core of the X-Men launch) and neither worked as guardian. Also, they were
without a base, and the mansion was being taken over by the X-Men. And so
what was the point of the team? Really?
Leifeld had an idea which fit with the new Uncanny/X-Men/X-Factor
breakdown and they went with it. Somehow, later, the team line-up got
changed so X-Force ended up different from the New Mutants. But the change
was *sound* and gave the title the injection of life it needed... until
Loeb came along and hacked it to death.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Fried bfr...@chat.carleton.ca Carleton U., Ottawa, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"What do you say? Will the human race be run in a day?
Or will someone save this planet we're playing on?"
Paul McCartney, 'Pipes Of Peace', 1983
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cypher74
Whoever's fault it was, the characterization dropped off badly when she took
over the book, the entire tone changed. I know Weezie and CC are very good
friends (or at least were), but I am surpised CC consented to Weezie's
treatment of those characters......I agree her Power Pack was great (first
comics I ever bought), but her New Mutants was God Awful....
And Blevins' art sucked! At least Liefeld's art was an improvement, though I
don't think much of his stories either.....
Brian
Cyph...@aol.com
Gorok190
>what was the point of the team? Really?
To follow Xavier's dream, not turn into G.I. Joe. What's the difference between
what the Avengers do and the New Warriors? Why can't we just have a younger
team of mutants without them turning into an assualt force. Personally, I find
that appalling.
>But the change
>was *sound* and gave the title the injection of life it needed... until
>Loeb came along and hacked it to death.
Absolutely not. It may have been sound, but it no longer had any relation to
what it was. Ok, you think change is good, but it wasn't change. One member of
the original New Mutants and one member of the X-Terminators plus one big gun
toting cyborg loser, one Wolverine-Wolfsbane knockoff, one mysterious
warrior-Longshot, a colossus knock-off, one more Longshot knock-off with wierd
colored skin, and that's it. They should have just started X-Force and left the
New Mutants alone. Where was more than 90% of the other members? Dead, wasted,
tossed, traded, whatever. X-Force was no change, it was a completely new team
and a total waste of my time. It was a cheap trick I will NEVER forgive Marvel
for. Arguing that X-Force had any connection to the New Mutants is like arguing
the first X-Factor team had anything to do with the second post-X-Tinction
Agenda version, which is absolutely nothing. I never did get an end to the New
Mutants story, I'm still waiting........
Dan McEwen
I remember. I always made an assumption that Dani combined her powers
in this area. She creates a bow and arrow and uses it to project
visions.
Dan #1617
Dan McEwen
>>Lots of
>>people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
>>good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
>>people that do not like Liefield.
>
>Gack! *cough* Ack! *weez* {grabs chest}
>
>WHAT?!?!? Show me who they are so I can terminate them one by one. Show me now.
>Simonson's run may not have been as good as CC's, but I enjoyed them more than
>Teen Rambo X. What was done to them during Leifeld's era is beyond words that I
>can currently define. Or use without very heavy, colorful metaphors.
Well, me. I hated the Simonson/Blevins as much as a run could be
hated. I hated the personality dysfunction, I hated the anorexia, I
hated Bird Brain and Gossamyr, I hated the pointless death of Cypher,
I hated the loss of Magik, I hated the
Dani-becomes-a-freakshow-in-Asgard story, I hated Sam taking drugs,
and, well, I could really go on and on.
Dan #1617
Michael Lehmeier
>>Lots of
>>people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
>>good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
>>people that do not like Liefield.
>
>Gack! *cough* Ack! *weez* {grabs chest}
>
>WHAT?!?!? Show me who they are so I can terminate them one by one. Show me now.
>Simonson's run may not have been as good as CC's, but I enjoyed them more than
>Teen Rambo X. What was done to them during Leifeld's era is beyond words that I
>can currently define. Or use without very heavy, colorful metaphors.
I think you are confusing Liefeld's New Mutants with Liefeld's X-Force.
At least I think there is a big difference.
I think that Liefeld's art was a big improvement at that time, even
though clothes changed at random. But his art didn't put tears in my
eyes like Bret Blevins' did. Or Jon Bogdanove's, just look at the
X-Tinction Agenda TPB. One great artist (Lee), one medicore (Liefeld)
and one really awful (Bogdanove).
The writing, well, it wasn't much better, but at least the NMs seemed to
go *somewhere* at that time and I considered it an improvement, even
though I didn't know where it was supposed to go.
It all went downhill when X-Force was set up and didn't recover until
the Nicieza/Capullo run in X-Force.
--
Michael Lehmeier -==UDIC== Nightshade Dragon m_leh...@gmx.de
Honesty-Compassion-Honor-Justice-Honesty-Valor-Sacrifice-Sprituality
How many virtues must be broken for Ultima 9 to be released like it was?
Gorok190
>now.
>Well, me.
(aim)
BLAM!!!!!!
(cock's gun again)
BLAM, BLAM, BLAM!
There, now he's finally out of his misery. :)
Dan McEwen
wrote:
>Leifeld had an idea which fit with the new Uncanny/X-Men/X-Factor
>breakdown and they went with it. Somehow, later, the team line-up got
>changed so X-Force ended up different from the New Mutants. But the change
>was *sound* and gave the title the injection of life it needed... until
>Loeb came along and hacked it to death.
The main problem with Loeb, IMO, is that he took Sam away (not so
terrible itself except for the way it was handled), put the team in
the mansion, and treated them like little kids. That's not who they
were. OTOH, Loeb also made some of them grow in new and way more
interesting ways (I hated Tabitha pre-Meltdown, more or less). Taking
Cable out of the picture was also a big plus. They still had a mentor
in Domino, but she was far less hands-off than Cable. Yes, Cable was
still technically the mentor, but he wasn't around much. And when he
was, the book was really about Cable and his sidekicks. So when Cable
wasn't around all the time, it was good. Also, and I know I'm a
minority here, but I preferred the changes in Shatterstar, though I
feel they didn't go where they were intended to go.
By the time Loeb left, it was a good thing. The Shatterstar ending
was a hack piece that Loeb didn't even really write. Moore put
something into the book that was badly needed. In some ways, it was
"New Mutants grown up", especially during the "On the Road" issues.
But he also started to lose his grip. I don't know if it was a change
in editorial or what, but things started slipping -- and Quantum Dani
was one of those very annoying slips.
So, now there's someone else, and he's got a new take. It's not NM
grown up, but it doesn't need to be. It's X-Force, after all. If you
want students, buy GenX.
Dan #1617
Johan Lundstrom
>>Add Magma, Gossymer, and Bird Boy to that list.
>
>Except kill off the last two. :)
That goes without saying. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se>
"Nothing succeeds like excess"
Gorok190
>>
>>Except kill off the last two. :)
>
>That goes without saying. :)
I probably shouldn't have mentioned them, but I did want to stress how many
characters have disappeared, bad or good. :)
Dan McEwen
>>And so
>>what was the point of the team? Really?
>
>To follow Xavier's dream, not turn into G.I. Joe. What's the difference between
>what the Avengers do and the New Warriors? Why can't we just have a younger
>team of mutants without them turning into an assualt force. Personally, I find
>that appalling.
I think it's a matter of sales appeal. A younger bunch of mutants who
had real lives would appeal to *me*, but would it appeal to the market
as a whole? Incidentally, said bunch wouldn't be a team...
>>But the change
>>was *sound* and gave the title the injection of life it needed... until
>>Loeb came along and hacked it to death.
>
>Absolutely not. It may have been sound, but it no longer had any relation to
>what it was. Ok, you think change is good, but it wasn't change. One member of
>the original New Mutants and one member of the X-Terminators plus one big gun
>toting cyborg loser, one Wolverine-Wolfsbane knockoff, one mysterious
>warrior-Longshot, a colossus knock-off, one more Longshot knock-off with wierd
>colored skin, and that's it.
I wouldn't really call Warpath a Colossus knockoff unless you're going
to claim that when Thunderbird and Colossus joined the X-Men at the
same time, one was a knockoff of the other. However, I will concede
that the bulking him up to Hulk-like appearance was inane.
Shatterstar, IMO, wasn't all the interesting *until* Loeb came along.
I do think Fabian was beginning to work a personality into him, but he
didn't get to complete that before the creator changeover.
Domino was only a "knockoff" in the vaguest sense. True, her power
was definitely luck, but it was so un-powerlike that it was hard to
imagine. When Longshot was using his luck, you knew it. With Domino,
it was difficult to say if she was just *that good*, or if it was her
luck. Well, Moore issues, post-O:ZT, showed that Domino was really
*that good*, so she's hardly a Longshot knockoff.
Feral was a big bore to me, so I'm not going to disagree. However, if
Liefield wanted a feral character, and made Rahne that character,
would you have been happy with the change?
And, of course, Cable was a loser until someone decided he could stand
to have a personality.
They should have just started X-Force and left the
>New Mutants alone. Where was more than 90% of the other members? Dead, wasted,
>tossed, traded, whatever. X-Force was no change, it was a completely new team
>and a total waste of my time. It was a cheap trick I will NEVER forgive Marvel
>for. Arguing that X-Force had any connection to the New Mutants is like arguing
>the first X-Factor team had anything to do with the second post-X-Tinction
>Agenda version, which is absolutely nothing. I never did get an end to the New
>Mutants story, I'm still waiting........
There really was no loss here. Rahne went to X-Factor, and had some
interesting stories. It was Simonson who ditched Magma, Mirage,
Magik, and Cypher. In Dani's case, it was a pretty shitty way she did
it. So who did that leave from the original team? Sam, Bobby, and
Warlock, and Warlock apparently died. Sam stayed with the team, and
Bobby was back inside of 2 years. What was supposed to happen? Who
was supposed to compose the New Mutants team? Sam and Bobby?
Dan #1617
Orange
shared some wisdom with us all:
>djmcewe...@freewwweb.com (Dan McEwen) wrote:
>
>>>Add Magma, Gossymer, and Bird Boy to that list.
>>
>>Except kill off the last two. :)
>
>That goes without saying. :)
I think the X-editors will do just that, as soon as one person here on
racmx actually manages to spell the space tart's name correctly. :)
Christian Henriksson
--
"My name is Joe Public, I'm sure you all know me.
Sometimes, they call me the great unwashed, but I don't mind."
-Neil Innes
Kate the Short --- Spamblocked!
goro...@aol.com (Gorok190) sat on the sofa and said:
>>Lots of
>>people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
>>good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
>>people that do not like Liefield.
>
>Gack! *cough* Ack! *weez* {grabs chest}
>
>WHAT?!?!? Show me who they are so I can terminate them one by one. Show me now.
Ding!
I HATEDHATEDHATED the Weezie/Blevins era. I was thankful when Rob
stepped in.
Of course, I later learned that you get what you wish for. -sigh- But
at the time, it was a much-needed change in pace.
>Simonson's run may not have been as good as CC's, but I enjoyed them more than
>Teen Rambo X. What was done to them during Leifeld's era is beyond words that I
>can currently define. Or use without very heavy, colorful metaphors.
I HATEDHATEDHATED the death of Doug, and the stuff with Bird-Boy and
Gossamyr. Hated it. Still hate it. And hated the lemon-sucking faces.
I apologize if Mr. Blevins and Ms. Simonson are reading, because I've
liked some of their other work, but Bird-Boy and Gossamyr and Sypder
just were an abberration.
kate.
| Kate the Short - Patron Saint - http://www.enteract.com/~katew/ |
| Help for new users of news: http://www.enteract.com/~katew/nnq/ |
| rg.frp.dnd FAQ: http://www.enteract.com/~aardy/faq/rgfdfaq.html |
| Comics FAQ: http://www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/ - ICQ# 8375030 |
_____________________________________________________________________
Carry on untill you have a result. Whatever the result, get drunk.
-- Iain Fielden
Dan McEwen
wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:57:29 GMT, jo...@algonet.se (Johan Lundstrom)
>shared some wisdom with us all:
>
>>djmcewe...@freewwweb.com (Dan McEwen) wrote:
>>
>>>>Add Magma, Gossymer, and Bird Boy to that list.
>>>
>>>Except kill off the last two. :)
>>
>>That goes without saying. :)
>
>I think the X-editors will do just that, as soon as one person here on
>racmx actually manages to spell the space tart's name correctly. :)
Gossamyr. Or Gossamer. I might be confusing the spellings between
the Legionnaire and the New Mutant.
Dan #1617
Johan Lundstrom
>>Lots of
>>people actually admit that Rob Liefield's entrance to the book was a
>>good thing in comparison to Simonson/Blevins era. And these are
>>people that do not like Liefield.
>
>Gack! *cough* Ack! *weez* {grabs chest}
>
>WHAT?!?!? Show me who they are so I can terminate them one by one.
Hey, I'm one. And I'm a rabid NM fan.
jonnyprime
he did in the mutants wasnt that bad. he cleaned up the mess
that was made to the team. they grew up. it happens. the point
of the NM wasnt to follow Xaviers dream. Ever since the
beginning he said they weret to be a combat force. they were
there to learn to use their powers. If they wanted to graduate
into the X-men that would be okay but they were not suppose to
be a fighting force. but that would have been a lttle boring
wouldnt it. so they became a team of fighters.i think some of
the members should have progressed alot faster than they
did.with the changes at the end of the series what could they do
but bring in more people. Wolfsbane was a mutate and then in
Xfactor. Moonstar was in asgard, magma in nova rome, magik,
cypher, warlock, dead, karma in asia, and all that was left was
sam and bobby. those wee the new mutants. Any one else doesnt
count. As soon as the new characters started to join the team
it was over.the new members didnt join the school they joined a
superhero team. Xforce worked for me. and it still is my
favorite x book. it stays true to the characters and their
natural progression and they arent always saving the world.
Like the Nomad series which i liked. they didnt have an agenda
they just were.i like when danis powers got upped in the first
place. but i didnt think she should have been able to make cars
and human double and all that. that was over kill. simple
things would have worked. and they would have relied on her
force of will and her own know how to have worked. a car no a
bike or scat board maybe. after she was upped she had to have
one physical thing made at all times. she defaulted with an
arrow pendant.the quantum powers could have been good and a
natural progression.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Orange
McEwen) shared some wisdom with us all:
No, in fact, it's Gosamyr. Now, Marvel Editors, here's your chance...
Samy Merchi
> >I think the X-editors will do just that, as soon as one person here on
> >racmx actually manages to spell the space tart's name correctly. :)
>
> Gossamyr. Or Gossamer. I might be confusing the spellings between
> the Legionnaire and the New Mutant.
Et tu, Dan?
*sigh*
*Gosamyr*. One of each letter. No duplicate letters whatsoever at all.
And as for the comments about the Simonson/Liefeld eras on this
thread... I think they had their strengths. They had godawful
*moments*, but as a whole, I don't think we got to 'godawful' until
Loeb.
Frankly, I'd take Louise or Rob's New Mutants over Loeb or JFM's
X-Force *anyday*.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| -- Samy Merchi / sam...@mash.yok.utu.fi / http://mash.yok.utu.fi |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gorok190
>to claim that when Thunderbird and Colossus joined the X-Men at the
>same time, one was a knockoff of the other.
Yeah, I agree. I looked back at what I said and realized I was wrong on that
call.
>There really was no loss here. Rahne went to X-Factor, and had some
>interesting stories.
I was speaking of what they apparently had planned before they decided to go
for X-Force. As in that preview done for Days of Future Present. They were
going to reform many of the core New Mutants plus what was there now, add
Shatterstar, and go for a meaner tougher take. Instead they changed their mind
and ditched everything I had ever dreamed of.
Gorok190
>It was Simonson who ditched Magma, Mirage,
>Magik, and Cypher.
Well I'm still trying to figure out who was going to make that New Mutants team
I was so psyched about. I don't know if it was Simonson, Leifeld, or Nicieza,
but they were going to bring back Magma and Magik.
>Sam, Bobby, and
>Warlock, and Warlock apparently died.
Like I said, I hated that and have no idea what idiot made that decision. In
the roster I keep ranting about, Warlock was going to stick with the team
alive!
> Sam stayed with the team, and
>Bobby was back inside of 2 years.
Sam was also going to stay on that team, when he left that was almost the last
straw. No way in heck was I going to wait two years through characters I
couldn't give a rats patoot about.
>What was supposed to happen? Who
>was supposed to compose the New Mutants team? Sam and Bobby?
As I said, over and over again. There was a whole New Mutants team previewed in
Days of Future Present's New Mutant Annual 6. The roster was:
Cable, Shatterstar, Sunspot, Warlock, Wolfsbane, Rictor, Boom Boom, Cannonball,
Magik, and Magma
I was tricked! Sometime after that I have no idea what happened but they killed
Warlock, mutated Wolfsbane, Rictor and Sunspot left, and several characters
made of cardboard debuted. I bought into another year or more of that for
nothing.
Gorok190
This is what I'm saying. New Mutants and everything left I cared about was
killed, destroyed, or removed during and after X-Tinction Agenda. It got worse
over time and by X-Force #10 I just gave up on it. Whoever ditched the New
Mutant roster from NM annual 6 is who I blame. Whoever that is.
Gorok190
>stepped in.
Well, it finally hit me what I was talking about exactly. Rob, or whoever,
didn't start murdering the book until #95.
>I apologize if Mr. Blevins and Ms. Simonson are reading, because I've
>liked some of their other work, but Bird-Boy and Gossamyr and Sypder
>just were an abberration.
Well, I stepped onto the book after that. Then I went and read the CC issues,
so apparently I did miss some bad writing. Buuuut.......I still loved the
characters and everything else about the team. Until #95.
Orange
wisdom with us all:
>As I said, over and over again. There was a whole New Mutants team previewed in
>Days of Future Present's New Mutant Annual 6. The roster was:
>
>Cable, Shatterstar, Sunspot, Warlock, Wolfsbane, Rictor, Boom Boom, Cannonball,
>Magik, and Magma
>
>I was tricked! Sometime after that I have no idea what happened but they killed
>Warlock, mutated Wolfsbane, Rictor and Sunspot left, and several characters
>made of cardboard debuted. I bought into another year or more of that for
>nothing.
Man, you've talked so much about this pinup now that you've made me
want to see it. Is this pinup to be found anywhere on the web?
Gorok190
>want to see it. Is this pinup to be found anywhere on the web?
>
Anybody who wants it just has to ask. I want people to know what could, and
SHOULD, have been. :(
I'll send you a copy.
Johan Lundstrom
>Frankly, I'd take Louise or Rob's New Mutants over Loeb or JFM's
>X-Force *anyday*.
Jeez, what did you hate so much about JFM's run? Apart from the
Reignfire stuff, I mean. I consider it the best X-Force run (at least
the earlier parts).
Bruins72
news:38d9e5bb...@news.algonet.se...
> Samy Merchi <sam...@mash.yok.utu.fi> wrote:
>
> >Frankly, I'd take Louise or Rob's New Mutants over Loeb or JFM's
> >X-Force *anyday*.
>
> Jeez, what did you hate so much about JFM's run? Apart from the
> Reignfire stuff, I mean. I consider it the best X-Force run (at
least
> the earlier parts).
Come on, think about who this is. Sami is definately pissed about the
Regnfire/Roberto thing!
--
Bruins72 (the poster formerly known as Bigbear)
Dan McEwen
wrote:
>Samy Merchi <sam...@mash.yok.utu.fi> wrote:
>
>>Frankly, I'd take Louise or Rob's New Mutants over Loeb or JFM's
>>X-Force *anyday*.
>
>Jeez, what did you hate so much about JFM's run? Apart from the
>Reignfire stuff, I mean. I consider it the best X-Force run (at least
>the earlier parts).
Same here. But that's exactly what Samy hates. The Reignfire stuff
isn't to his like, and neither is the relationship (or lack of same)
between Bobby and Dani.
Dan #1617
De Parker
> Samy Merchi <sam...@mash.yok.utu.fi> wrote:
> >Frankly, I'd take Louise or Rob's New Mutants over Loeb or JFM's
> >X-Force *anyday*.
> Jeez, what did you hate so much about JFM's run? Apart from the
> Reignfire stuff, I mean. I consider it the best X-Force run (at least
> the earlier parts).
Honestly, I found it extremely boring. it was the longest but not the best.
His 1st year was exciting and really good. X-Force still had some of
attitude left over from Nicieza's X-Force. Apparently, he was just writing
X-Force out of the situation they were in and into the lethargic state he
preferred. The last 2 years have been dull. The road trip got boring and
started going the wrong direction in the storyline featuring the generic
half-cat half-scientist who killed Jimmy's tribe. How anti-climactic is
that? Then, Reignfire looked promising and turned out to be a let-down. I
can't remember some of the stuff. Even though King Bedlam was cool, the
Hellions were another disappointment. That trip to Genosha was cool, but
does that counter all this other stuff? Then, Dani got all screwed up and
everything about that storyline just sucked. This stuff had nothing to do
with anything. These could have been Power Pack stories. remember, this is
X-Force. They have that name for a reason. They are a pro-active superhero
team. They find out who is doing wrong and seek them out. They should be
doing things that the X-Men wish they could do. SHIELD should be looking
for them. The X-Men should be upset that there are reports of mutants
wearing X's doing questionable things. They don't sit around waiting for
bad news to come in the mail. They should be rebels, but they should rebel
against how superheroes take action not the fact that they do.
dp
Orange
wisdom with us all:
>>Man, you've talked so much about this pinup now that you've made me
>>want to see it. Is this pinup to be found anywhere on the web?
>>
>
>Anybody who wants it just has to ask. I want people to know what could, and
>SHOULD, have been. :(
>I'll send you a copy.
Thanks a bunch, Drew! It was indeed very interesting to see.
Johan Lundstrom
>Come on, think about who this is. Sami is definately pissed about the
>Regnfire/Roberto thing!
That's why I mentioned Reignfire. I don't mind that story personally.
But is even Samy fanboy enough to to let that story sink the writer
below the likes of Liefeld? :-)
Gorok190
>> Reignfire stuff, I mean. I consider it the best X-Force run (at least
>> the earlier parts).
>
>Honestly, I found it extremely boring.
Ditto. Halloween Jack, oooooooh.....
Cypher
Dan McEwen <dannyboy...@freewwweb.com> wrote in message
news:38d7bb7a...@news.freewwweb.com...
> By the time Loeb left, it was a good thing. The Shatterstar ending
> was a hack piece that Loeb didn't even really write. Moore put
> something into the book that was badly needed. In some ways, it was
> "New Mutants grown up", especially during the "On the Road" issues.
> But he also started to lose his grip. I don't know if it was a change
> in editorial or what, but things started slipping -- and Quantum Dani
> was one of those very annoying slips.
>
Well, you could've mention "Reignfire was never Bobby even
though Dani knew it was him" retcon. Ugh!
> So, now there's someone else, and he's got a new take. It's not NM
> grown up, but it doesn't need to be. It's X-Force, after all. If you
> want students, buy GenX.
>
It's a very bad take. Instead of "NM grown up" it's "what I
was going to do with Excalibur." IMO, this is the worst
X-Force has ever been. Pete Wisdom is the leader, Sam
says he isn't, then Pete spends the next issue leading the team
and calling them his "X-Men." Tabitha somehow forgot to
use timebombs, now she just shoots out energy beams.
X-Force (Sam especially) didn't want to be someone's
troops - they wanted to start doing things themselves. So
why would they start taking orders from Wisdom? You
know, besides the fact that Ellis just wants to use his
character. Also, for some reason, Whilce Portatio is
WORSE than when he pencilled X-Factor and X-Men.
Buy Gen X? At this point, it's the same as X-Force. I didn't
mind Ellis's Excalibur, but I hate that I'm reading it 2 times a
month. It really sucks to be a completist when some of your
favorite books suck this badly.
Am I alone in hating Counter-X?
--Cypher
Prosh
"Cypher" <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote in message
news:0q325.3880$227....@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
>
> Dan McEwen <dannyboy...@freewwweb.com> wrote in message
> news:38d7bb7a...@news.freewwweb.com...
>
> > By the time Loeb left, it was a good thing. The Shatterstar ending
> > was a hack piece that Loeb didn't even really write. Moore put
> > something into the book that was badly needed. In some ways, it was
> > "New Mutants grown up", especially during the "On the Road" issues.
> > But he also started to lose his grip. I don't know if it was a change
> > in editorial or what, but things started slipping -- and Quantum Dani
> > was one of those very annoying slips.
> >
> Well, you could've mention "Reignfire was never Bobby even
> though Dani knew it was him" retcon. Ugh!
Im not to sure, but didnt Reignfire possess Bobby. And with Bobby now in the
Hellfire Club and his temper.... maybe Reignfire just developed what was
already there......
> > So, now there's someone else, and he's got a new take. It's not NM
> > grown up, but it doesn't need to be. It's X-Force, after all. If you
> > want students, buy GenX.
> >
> It's a very bad take. Instead of "NM grown up" it's "what I
> was going to do with Excalibur." IMO, this is the worst
> X-Force has ever been. Pete Wisdom is the leader, Sam
> says he isn't, then Pete spends the next issue leading the team
> and calling them his "X-Men." Tabitha somehow forgot to
> use timebombs, now she just shoots out energy beams.
> X-Force (Sam especially) didn't want to be someone's
> troops - they wanted to start doing things themselves. So
> why would they start taking orders from Wisdom? You
> know, besides the fact that Ellis just wants to use his
> character. Also, for some reason, Whilce Portatio is
> WORSE than when he pencilled X-Factor and X-Men.
I really dont like Whilce Portacio's drawing of people. They look ugly and
badly positioned. Just look at Tabitha's face in issue #2 of WISDOM AND CO.
She looked like shed been hit with the ugly stick a few times.
And as for the costumes.... OK.... they're supposed to be a what? kind of
team? Why do they look so uncomfortable then?
The thing I hate most, is that X-Force can never go back, without ugly
retcons. I mean, Tabitha's power is timebombs. OK six months later she has
Wisdom knives.... how do you explain that jump. Wont they explode and blow
off her fingers? That's just smashing the Tabitha peg into the female Wisdom
hole.....
I liked their powers and appearance before Counter X. Frankly, now they look
like goths and rejects from society.
> Buy Gen X? At this point, it's the same as X-Force. I didn't
> mind Ellis's Excalibur, but I hate that I'm reading it 2 times a
> month. It really sucks to be a completist when some of your
> favorite books suck this badly.
There were many moments in Excalibur that I did like. It became a bit
tediously dark after a while. Gen X is going that way too, but I do like the
character moments.... and whatever happened to Emma.... does she lead
anymore?
> Am I alone in hating Counter-X?
Nope. Gen X is growing on me, but as said many many times before, it could
have been done in two issues. Also I find the art extremely dodgy in places,
and also the main villain is very Ellis-esque of being "gosh! society is so
mean"... for instance... take a character... say Spoor from Excalibur. If
you havent read this particular issue, Ellis tells of how Spoor's mother was
a prostitute or something. I just remember thinking is this really
necessary? OK, he's a villain....but the whole thing was littered with "Im
the underbelly of society, that you never wanna read about." It wasOK if it
was just him, but every single person Wisdom met was like it. It got boring
after a while.
And as for X-Man.... thought id give it a try, but IMO its worse than it was
before. Art and story wise. The first issue had so little of him, that this
new change is a turn off.
PROSH
Oggham
> It's a very bad take. Instead of "NM grown up" it's
> "what I
> was going to do with Excalibur." IMO, this is the
> worst
> X-Force has ever been. Pete Wisdom is the leader, Sam
> says he isn't, then Pete spends the next issue leading
> the team
> and calling them his "X-Men." Tabitha somehow forgot
> to
> use timebombs, now she just shoots out energy beams.
> X-Force (Sam especially) didn't want to be someone's
> troops - they wanted to start doing things themselves.
> So
> why would they start taking orders from Wisdom? You
> know, besides the fact that Ellis just wants to use his
> character. Also, for some reason, Whilce Portatio is
> WORSE than when he pencilled X-Factor and X-Men.
> Buy Gen X? At this point, it's the same as X-Force.
> I didn't
> mind Ellis's Excalibur, but I hate that I'm reading it
> 2 times a
> month. It really sucks to be a completist when some
> of your
> favorite books suck this badly.
> Am I alone in hating Counter-X?
> --Cypher
I was severyly disappointed by the W-Force thing. I really
do not like Wisdom, and I am not sorry that I missed all
those issues of Excalibur. I can't really comment on Mr
Ellis' writing or storytelling, In a few issues time I will
be familiar enough to have an opinion on him. But I really
did not like the W-Force Revolution issue at all. Mind you,
if I do hate the further issues, I can rest easy because by
what people were saying, Mr Ellis is only doing the
Counter-X books to fulfil a promise, and should be gone
soon, then W-Force should revert back to being X-Force. Then
enough negative mail to the right editor should get Wisdom
shot on Animal Island.
Then again, I may love Ellis' work and lament his moving on,
time will tell...
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Cypher
Prosh <pr...@freenetname.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8iapcm$9iq$1...@gxsn.com...
>
> "Cypher" <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote in message
> news:0q325.3880$227....@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> >
> > Dan McEwen <dannyboy...@freewwweb.com> wrote in message
> > news:38d7bb7a...@news.freewwweb.com...
> >
> > > By the time Loeb left, it was a good thing. The Shatterstar ending
> > > was a hack piece that Loeb didn't even really write. Moore put
> > > something into the book that was badly needed. In some ways, it was
> > > "New Mutants grown up", especially during the "On the Road" issues.
> > > But he also started to lose his grip. I don't know if it was a change
> > > in editorial or what, but things started slipping -- and Quantum Dani
> > > was one of those very annoying slips.
> > >
> > Well, you could've mention "Reignfire was never Bobby even
> > though Dani knew it was him" retcon. Ugh!
>
> Im not to sure, but didnt Reignfire possess Bobby. And with Bobby now in
the
> Hellfire Club and his temper.... maybe Reignfire just developed what was
> already there......
>
of the character - something like a darker Cable due to his
travels with Locus. Dani wanted to help him, so she joined
the MLF (see the excellent X-Force Annual #3). Then, right
before AOA, he revealed himself to the team. However, for
some stupid reason, all this was retconned away. If you're
keeping score, Xavier turned evil then it got retconned into
being Magneto's fault while Bobby turned evil then it got
retconned into Project 19's fault. You know, because no one
could ever actually turn evil. Even though there've been hints
to Bobby's evil destiny for as long as he's been around.
--Cypher
sam...@mash.yok.utu.fi
> being Magneto's fault while Bobby turned evil then it got
> retconned into Project 19's fault. You know, because no one
> could ever actually turn evil. Even though there've been hints
> to Bobby's evil destiny for as long as he's been around.
Hallelujah, I'm not alone.
Wholeheartedly agree 100% with everything you said.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| -- Samy Merchi | sam...@mash.yok.utu.fi | http://mash.yok.utu.fi |
| Reader & fan of superhero comics; writer of superhero fanfiction |
| Female supremacist; anarchist; personal pacifist; mass darwinist |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BlakGard
>being Magneto's fault
This was not a retcon. It was how it was originally intended.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
JinX
there were multiple creative forces handling the story. Mark Waid wanted to
play Onslaught as Xavier gone mad after having a MAJOR breakdown.
Effectively becoming the antithesis of the Dream. Other members of the
creative group didn't want to make Charles unredeemable so the "tainted by
Magneto" backdoor was introduced which led to Onslaught evolving into a
being separate from Charles completely. Allowing Xavier off with a slap on
the wrist considering the damage that resulted in his wake.
----------
In article <20000616161449...@ng-da1.aol.com>,
Lacy3399
>Actually depends on whose version of Onslaught you go with. At the time
>there were multiple creative forces handling the story. Mark Waid wanted to
>play Onslaught as Xavier gone mad after having a MAJOR breakdown.
>Effectively becoming the antithesis of the Dream. Other members of the
>creative group didn't want to make Charles unredeemable so the "tainted by
>Magneto" backdoor was introduced which led to Onslaught evolving into a
>being separate from Charles completely. Allowing Xavier off with a slap on
>the wrist considering the damage that resulted in his wake.
This is what I heard, too. There was some friction between Waid and
Lobdell, and the portrayal of Xavier and the Onslaught storyline were a part of
the tension between the two writers. Another thing to remember is that the
"Heroes Reborn" stuff was being shoved into the Onslaught story, too -- Marvel
was in a lot of turmoil at this time.
Basically, though, (from what I read at the time) Waid's original
conception of Onslaught did not involved Magneto. Once Magneto was added,
though, he went from being sort-of involved (Xavier was "tainted" by the mind
of Magneto) to being largely responsible for Onslaught. (Who can forget that
little, nasty-looking Magneto-gremlin that shot out of Magneto and possessed
Xavier during the mind-wipe flashback in WOLVERINE #104?)
Lacy
jonnyprime
>with anything. These could have been Power Pack stories.
remember, this is
>X-Force. They have that name for a reason. They are a pro-
active superhero
>team. They find out who is doing wrong and seek them out.
They should be
>doing things that the X-Men wish they could do. SHIELD should
be looking
>for them. The X-Men should be upset that there are reports of
mutants
>wearing X's doing questionable things. They don't sit around
waiting for
>bad news to come in the mail
They did all that stuff with cable. When he and domino left
they quuit being cables commandos and decided that they wanted
to have a life. They have a social concous but they dont want
too be soldiers anymore. They remind me more of the Defenders.
Friends who have powers and is thrying to help those who need
it. They seem more real to me than any of the other x people.
The stories were starting to remind me of the New Mutants. They
werent a team created to fight they were a groud of students
whgo got into batttel occationally but it was never by
design.
>They should be rebels, but they should rebel
>against how superheroes take action not the fact that they do.
>
They are rebelling like most gen Xers do. They are living their
life and helping when they can. You can only rebel so long.
Esp when what your rebeling against is being though of as
children. When they were with Cable they were more freedom
fighters than rebel. They believed in the "dream" but not how
to acheive it. Now theyre rebeling against Cables way. Now
being before all this X axis crap. In my opinion the xbooks
realy dont exist now. If you change things that dramatically you
should just creat a new book with original characters. That
excessive a change is too much. Look what happened to Alpha
Fight. People who didnt care about keeping it real got on the
book and it changed. Its like someone wanted to do their own
book with their own characters but got Alpha instead and do they
changed everything to make it the book that they werent able to
do. Now that was a crime.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
De Parker
> >This stuff had nothing to do
> >with anything. These could have been Power Pack stories.
> remember, this is
> >X-Force. They have that name for a reason. They are a pro-
> active superhero
> >team. They find out who is doing wrong and seek them out.
> They should be
> >doing things that the X-Men wish they could do. SHIELD should
> be looking
> >for them. The X-Men should be upset that there are reports of
> mutants
> >wearing X's doing questionable things. They don't sit around
> waiting for
> >bad news to come in the mail
> They did all that stuff with cable. When he and domino left
> they quuit being cables commandos and decided that they wanted
> to have a life. They have a social concous but they dont want
> too be soldiers anymore. They remind me more of the Defenders.
> Friends who have powers and is thrying to help those who need
> it. They seem more real to me than any of the other x people.
> The stories were starting to remind me of the New Mutants. They
> werent a team created to fight they were a groud of students
> whgo got into batttel occationally but it was never by
> design.
Yeah, they did what you described above ad became extremely boring. The
book is called X-FORCE not X-ISTENTIALISTS. Notice how the Defenders can't
keep a series for very long. You're still thinking about the New Mutants.
That is over. Jimmy, Terry, Jesse, and Star were never New Mutants. Ric
and Tab were barely New Mutants. Just add Sam, and you have X-Force.
> >They should be rebels, but they should rebel
> >against how superheroes take action not the fact that they do.
> They are rebelling like most gen Xers do. They are living their
> life and helping when they can. You can only rebel so long.
> Esp when what your rebeling against is being though of as
> children. When they were with Cable they were more freedom
> fighters than rebel. They believed in the "dream" but not how
> to acheive it. Now theyre rebeling against Cables way.
For the record, the X-Men are on the young end of generation x. They came
up with it about 10 years ago so the ages have shifted 10 years. Many are
in their early 30's. None are in their teens. As for X-Force, they should
rebel against every way except Cable's to degree. That's probably why Moore
changed Jimmy so much and why Ric and Star were removed from the team. No
matter who was in charge and what the team decided to do, they were going to
be angry and destructive. That's not Cable's way at all, but under Cable,
they were able to express themselves with the freedom his method gave even
though he himself was overbearing. I for one liked it and would like to see
it again without any one like Cable or Xavier or Wisdom to guide them. If
you want the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for a
separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New Mutants except
Sam. Dani can lead your team.
dp - I think that's all
Cypher
> up with it about 10 years ago so the ages have shifted 10 years. Many are
> in their early 30's. None are in their teens. As for X-Force, they
should
> rebel against every way except Cable's to degree. That's probably why
Moore
> changed Jimmy so much and why Ric and Star were removed from the team. No
> matter who was in charge and what the team decided to do, they were going
to
> be angry and destructive. That's not Cable's way at all, but under Cable,
> they were able to express themselves with the freedom his method gave even
> though he himself was overbearing. I for one liked it and would like to
see
> it again without any one like Cable or Xavier or Wisdom to guide them. If
> you want the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for a
> separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New Mutants
except
> Sam. Dani can lead your team.
>
really both, but he did leave X-Force to join the X-Men
(however briefly). He was also the only Mutie to survive the
entire 100-issue, 7-annual, 2-special, and 1-graphic novel
run of the book. I just don't see having all the (living) New
Mutants together without Sam.
--Cypher
De Parker
> IMO, Sam is more of a New Mutant than an X-Forcer. He is
> really both, but he did leave X-Force to join the X-Men
> (however briefly). He was also the only Mutie to survive the
> entire 100-issue, 7-annual, 2-special, and 1-graphic novel
> run of the book. I just don't see having all the (living) New
> Mutants together without Sam.
Sam is the only person I'd want leading X-Force. His history under the
guidance of Xavier, Magneto, Cable, and now Wisdom, if you want to include
him, brings him to a point where he's evolved into more than a New Mutant.
For 9 years he was in THE NEW MUTANTS, but for the last 9, he's been making
new friends and enemies in X-FORCE. I think he's moved beyond the New
Mutants.
dp - new mutants aren't new so the name is as silly as teens called gen x
Bruins72
news:8ion9j$jrs$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
I have to agree with you here. Sam has actually been with X-Force for
more regular issues than he was with the New Mutants. NM only reached
#100. X-Force has gone past that. Also, he's evolved as a character.
Some of the others have dropped out of the superhero game (ala Karma
and Skids) while others have just moved on to other things.
Sam is where he belongs.
--
Bruins72
Cypher
De Parker <gt5...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:8ion9j$jrs$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> Cypher <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote
>
> > IMO, Sam is more of a New Mutant than an X-Forcer. He is
> > really both, but he did leave X-Force to join the X-Men
> > (however briefly). He was also the only Mutie to survive the
> > entire 100-issue, 7-annual, 2-special, and 1-graphic novel
> > run of the book. I just don't see having all the (living) New
> > Mutants together without Sam.
>
> Sam is the only person I'd want leading X-Force. His history under the
> guidance of Xavier, Magneto, Cable, and now Wisdom, if you want to include
> him, brings him to a point where he's evolved into more than a New Mutant.
> For 9 years he was in THE NEW MUTANTS, but for the last 9, he's been
making
> new friends and enemies in X-FORCE. I think he's moved beyond the New
> Mutants.
>
Terry seemed to be a pretty capable leader to me.
I'm not disputing that he hasn't grown while in X-Force.
Everyone has grown since the NM days (with the
possible exception of Amara - thanks again, Fab -
and Shan). Anyway, he's always had a link to the
NM with him. After all, those nine 9 years in X-Force
almost always had Bobby by his side. You know,
when he wasn't looking for him :)
However, it would be weird under your original
premise (a book with all the pre-X-Terminator
NM) without Sam. Unless he still has feelings
for Tab. Otherwise, Tabitha and X-F vs. Bobby,
Dani, Rahne and NM doesn't look too good for
X-F.
> dp - new mutants aren't new so the name is as silly as teens called gen x
I love the name. It is silly, but that's what I like about
it. It's the same concept as "Brotherhood of Evil
Mutants." Everytime someone mentions the name
of either team, there's always some sort of goofiness
involved.
--Cypher
Cypher
Bruins72 <bruins72@*REMOVE*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sqR35.21147$FC6.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> De Parker <gt5...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> news:8ion9j$jrs$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> > Cypher <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote
> >
> > > IMO, Sam is more of a New Mutant than an X-Forcer. He is
> > > really both, but he did leave X-Force to join the X-Men
> > > (however briefly). He was also the only Mutie to survive the
> > > entire 100-issue, 7-annual, 2-special, and 1-graphic novel
> > > run of the book. I just don't see having all the (living) New
> > > Mutants together without Sam.
> >
> > Sam is the only person I'd want leading X-Force. His history under
> the
> > guidance of Xavier, Magneto, Cable, and now Wisdom, if you want to
> include
> > him, brings him to a point where he's evolved into more than a New
> Mutant.
> > For 9 years he was in THE NEW MUTANTS, but for the last 9, he's been
> making
> > new friends and enemies in X-FORCE. I think he's moved beyond the
> New
> > Mutants.
>
>
> more regular issues than he was with the New Mutants. NM only reached
> #100. X-Force has gone past that. Also, he's evolved as a character.
> Some of the others have dropped out of the superhero game (ala Karma
> and Skids) while others have just moved on to other things.
>
> Sam is where he belongs.
>
all the "real" NM reform without Sam? That's like
having the original X-Men reform without Jean (hell,
they brought her back to life to avoid it). Also,
due to Sam's graduation a while back, he's still been
a NM for the majority.
All I'm saying is if the NM reformed, Sam would
(and should) be there. Especially if Bobby is.
Besides, no one belongs in that crap they're calling
X-Force right now :)
--Cypher
Bruins72
Why would the New Mutants reform? They're no longer young mutants
learning to control their powers and going to school. They've grown
up. Sam has probably grown up more than any of them. It would be a
shame to have everyone yanked back from where ever they are just for
nostalgia purposes. We already saw that when Kurt, Kitty, and Piotr
got brought back to the main books. Plus, why would Sam want to drop
his new friends and teammates? They seem to have dropped out of site.
He kept going through each evolution of the team. Sure, he'd probably
like to hang out with his old friends but that's what reunions are
for.
I know I don't hang out with all my old grade school friends just
because we were together so long. We've all grown up and gone our
different ways. That's life.
--
Bruins72
Cypher
Were you following the thread? dp told someone "If you want
the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for
a separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New
Mutants except Sam. Dani can lead your team."
To this I responded that it would be silly for the whole team to
reform without Sam. And it would be.
> I know I don't hang out with all my old grade school friends just
> because we were together so long. We've all grown up and gone our
> different ways. That's life.
>
I'm sorry. I still have lots of friends from that point in my life
(not that it was that long ago).
--Cypher
Gorok190
>That is over. Jimmy, Terry, Jesse, and Star were never New Mutants. Ric
>and Tab were barely New Mutants. Just add Sam, and you have X-Force.
I agree. As one of the people asking for a New Mutant type title, I think that
X-Force is well on it's own and needn't be changed for any reason. In fact, I
may not NEED a New Mutant title anymore as I will soon explain...
> If
>you want the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for a
>separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New Mutants except
>Sam. Dani can lead your team.
>
I have written them about that, but there really doesn't seem to be a need
anymore. I liked the New Mutants because I saw them as the next generation of
X-Men. I didn't like where X-Force was going, but it didn't even really go
there with the majority of the New Mutants members, as you said. Even Bobby,
who was never any good as an Xavier student, makes a better X-Force member. But
Dani? Rahne? Warlock? Magik? Karma? Magma? What about them? Well, to my delight
and suprise, Dani showed up in X-Men as a reserve member! I had thought about
the possibility before, but I didn't really think the editors would go for New
Mutant members finally becoming X-Men. Sam was all wrong. I didn't even LIKE
X-Force but I knew better than that. You don't degenerate a character like
that, no matter how bad you want it. He was one of Cable's students, hence I
don't buy it. Dani is different. Now I hear Rahne is hanging out at the
mansion....hmm. Maybe Claremont has decided to pick up the shattered pieces of
the book he created and put them back where they belong?
Cypher
Gorok190 <goro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000622032312...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> I have written them about that, but there really doesn't seem to be a need
> anymore. I liked the New Mutants because I saw them as the next generation
of
> X-Men. I didn't like where X-Force was going, but it didn't even really go
> there with the majority of the New Mutants members, as you said. Even
Bobby,
> who was never any good as an Xavier student, makes a better X-Force
member. But
> Dani? Rahne? Warlock? Magik? Karma? Magma? What about them? Well, to my
delight
> and suprise, Dani showed up in X-Men as a reserve member! I had thought
about
> the possibility before, but I didn't really think the editors would go for
New
> Mutant members finally becoming X-Men. Sam was all wrong. I didn't even
LIKE
> X-Force but I knew better than that. You don't degenerate a character like
> that, no matter how bad you want it. He was one of Cable's students, hence
I
> don't buy it. Dani is different. Now I hear Rahne is hanging out at the
> mansion....hmm. Maybe Claremont has decided to pick up the shattered
pieces of
> the book he created and put them back where they belong?
>
If he can rectify Fabian's stupid Nova Roma retcon and bring in
Shan, I'll love him for life.
--Cypher
jonnyprime
>>You're still thinking about the New Mutants.
>>That is over. Jimmy, Terry, Jesse, and Star were never New
Mutants. Ric
>>and Tab were barely New Mutants. Just add Sam, and you have X-
Force.
>
As i have been saying. The New Mutants were over as that team
when they left Magneto and struck off on their own. They just
kept the name. When the xterminators showed up they werent the
New Muties anymore they just hadnt got rid of the name. At the
beginning X-Force was basically Cables Commandos. They werw a
para military group. Luckily they got over that. These young
people in previous incarnations never seemed to be that way.
Right now ( before this new era) they were young people trying
to find their way. They had their beliefs and political veiws
but they werent in it just to fight anymore. They were in it to
win. If they would have stayed with Cables way of doing things
they would all have become bitter warriors. The way Xforce was
on the road trip and the times just before and after had a more
healthy view than the other X books show. They were optimistic
and wanted tto do their part but they werent hidding away from
the real world. They were part of it.
>> If
>>you want the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel
asking for a
>>separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New
Mutants except
>>Sam. Dani can lead your team.
>>
>
>I have written them about that, but there really doesn't seem
to be a need
>anymore. I liked the New Mutants because I saw them as the next
generation of
>X-Men. I didn't like where X-Force was going, but it didn't
even really go
>there with the majority of the New Mutants members, as you
said. Even Bobby,
>who was never any good as an Xavier student, makes a better X-
Force member.
Its funny but Berto was the one who idolized the Xmen most.
They were the heroes that he wanted to grow up and be someday.
He wasnt the best follower or student, yes he was a hot head,
but when he saw an injustice hed try and fix right it (usually
without thinking). I think that if Cyclops had mentored him he
would have made a great Xman. Like Cap America did with Hawkeye.
>Dani?
I always saw Moonstar as a rebel. Like Storm. Shed be a good
undergrounder.
>Rahne? Warlock? Magik? Magma?
And Cypher. They all were followers. I figured they would just
move on to what ever became available. I wish Yana would have
had the opportunity to get traing form Dr Strange or Jennifer
Kale or some other mystics. Xavier dropped the ball with her
badly. None really did dtrike me as xmen. Not xforcers
either. Rahney going to Xfactor worked good for me. Amaras
Character never gave any indication. I think shed have done a
Skids and left it all behind to get into the real world. Maybe
with Dougie and Locke in tow.
>
>Karma
She would have chucked it all in the first place. Her priority
were her sibs. She seemed like she was the most together of all
the muties and could function in the real world. And shes doing
that now. If anything shed have becaome a liason officer ala
Val Cooper between the X and others.
poor sam
>I knew better than that. You don't degenerate a character like
>that, no matter how bad you want it. He was one of Cable's
students, hence I
>don't buy it.
He lead the Xforce and when he became an Xman he was the low man
on the totem pole. He went from confident man to bumbling kid.
I think he would have worked as Xman but I dont think hed want
to have been one by that time. He had all the experience he
needed from Xforce. There was no reason for him to have been an
Xman. What could he have gained from that? If they needed him
to be off the team for a while they should have sent him to look
after his Ma.
Bruins72
>
> Bruins72 <bruins72@*REMOVE*hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:WK445.23375$FC6.5...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Cypher <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3ER35.6462$227.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > >
> > learning to control their powers and going to school. They've
grown
> > up. Sam has probably grown up more than any of them. It would be a
> > shame to have everyone yanked back from where ever they are just
for
> > nostalgia purposes. We already saw that when Kurt, Kitty, and
Piotr
> > got brought back to the main books. Plus, why would Sam want to
drop
> > his new friends and teammates? They seem to have dropped out of
site.
> > He kept going through each evolution of the team. Sure, he'd
probably
> > like to hang out with his old friends but that's what reunions are
> > for.
> >
>
> the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for
> a separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New
> Mutants except Sam. Dani can lead your team."
>
> reform without Sam. And it would be.
Yes, I have been reading it the thread. IMO, it would be silly for the
team to reform with or without Sam. It was a great book and many
people liked it but the characters have grown up. We have X-Force now.
While I may not be happy with the current storyline, that is what the
has replaced the New Mutants. Some characters left the game, others
joined in. The group evolved into this. New Mutants was about young
teens learning to use their powers in a mutant school. We have that
concept being used in GenX.
It just seems like you enjoyed the New Mutants so much that you want
them back, picking up where they left off, no matter how much has
changed since then. I think it would silly to have Sam drop his life
just because an old group of friends are getting the old team together
and he was there before. Not enough of a reason for me.
> > I know I don't hang out with all my old grade school friends just
> > because we were together so long. We've all grown up and gone our
> > different ways. That's life.
> >
>
> I'm sorry. I still have lots of friends from that point in my life
> (not that it was that long ago).
Several people (myself included) find that the older they get, the
further old friends drift apart. You interests change. You get caught
up in life. People move away. I've still got some friends from back
then but I don't hang out with all the same people.
--
Bruins72
jonnyprime
>> > I know I don't hang out with all my old grade school
friends just
>> > because we were together so long. We've all grown up and
gone our
>> > different ways. That's life.
>> >
>>
>> I'm sorry. I still have lots of friends from that point in
my life
>> (not that it was that long ago).
>
>Several people (myself included) find that the older they get,
the
>further old friends drift apart. You interests change. You get
caught
>up in life. People move away. I've still got some friends from
back
>then but I don't hang out with all the same people.
>
The thing is they werent just fellow students. They were all
going through life altering changes and had to rely on each
other like family. Trusting each other with their lives. They
will move on but still be connected in a very deep way. If any
of them called for help the others would come runing no matter
what. Their bond is deeper than just friendship. They have all
grown with different ideals and points of veiw due to the
differing lives they have led but they still have their time
being new mutants to bind them. Most of the X are that way.
It's cool yet sad becasue that bond is there because they have
noone else. Since they are always in hidding and seperating
themselves from the world at large they only have each other to
turn too. Thats that difference i think between them and other
hero groups. Other groups have lives with outside support
systems. The X have only themselves.
Cypher
> > Were you following the thread? dp told someone "If you want
> > the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for
> > a separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New
> > Mutants except Sam. Dani can lead your team."
> >
> > To this I responded that it would be silly for the whole team to
> > reform without Sam. And it would be.
>
> Yes, I have been reading it the thread. IMO, it would be silly for the
> team to reform with or without Sam. It was a great book and many
> people liked it but the characters have grown up. We have X-Force now.
> While I may not be happy with the current storyline, that is what the
> has replaced the New Mutants. Some characters left the game, others
> joined in. The group evolved into this. New Mutants was about young
> teens learning to use their powers in a mutant school. We have that
> concept being used in GenX.
>
I don't know if it would be silly, but I guess that means you
aren't very fond of Titans.
> It just seems like you enjoyed the New Mutants so much that you want
> them back, picking up where they left off, no matter how much has
> changed since then. I think it would silly to have Sam drop his life
> just because an old group of friends are getting the old team together
> and he was there before. Not enough of a reason for me.
>
Now you're confused. I did enjoy the New Mutants (it's
easily my favorite series and team), but I wouldn't want
them to reform at all. I can't think of one writer I'd want
to write them now (including CC). I am more than content
to open up the back issue box and remember the good ol'
days. I merely said that it would be silly for the NM to
reform without Sam. If Marvel were to have them reform
(for whatever reason), Sam should be there. Just like they
brought back Jean rather than have the original X-Men
reform without her.
> > > I know I don't hang out with all my old grade school friends just
> > > because we were together so long. We've all grown up and gone our
> > > different ways. That's life.
> > >
> >
> > I'm sorry. I still have lots of friends from that point in my life
> > (not that it was that long ago).
>
> Several people (myself included) find that the older they get, the
> further old friends drift apart. You interests change. You get caught
> up in life. People move away. I've still got some friends from back
> then but I don't hang out with all the same people.
>
In my experience, you fall out of touch with your casual
friends. I won't ever lose touch of my closest friends.
In reference to what someone else said, the NM are
just about the only friends they have, so their bond
would be considerably stronger than old friends to
you and me.
--Cypher
Bruins72
>
> Bruins72 <bruins72@*REMOVE*hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:yen45.20596$ds.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> > > Were you following the thread? dp told someone "If you want
> > > the New Mutants back, I suggest you write Marvel asking for
> > > a separate title. You can have all the pre-"X-Terminators" New
> > > Mutants except Sam. Dani can lead your team."
> > >
> > > To this I responded that it would be silly for the whole team to
> > > reform without Sam. And it would be.
> >
> > Yes, I have been reading it the thread. IMO, it would be silly for
the
> > team to reform with or without Sam. It was a great book and many
> > people liked it but the characters have grown up. We have X-Force
now.
> > While I may not be happy with the current storyline, that is what
the
> > has replaced the New Mutants. Some characters left the game,
others
> > joined in. The group evolved into this. New Mutants was about
young
> > teens learning to use their powers in a mutant school. We have
that
> > concept being used in GenX.
> >
>
> I don't know if it would be silly, but I guess that means you
> aren't very fond of Titans.
Nope. I don't do DC at all.
> > It just seems like you enjoyed the New Mutants so much that you
want
> > them back, picking up where they left off, no matter how much has
> > changed since then. I think it would silly to have Sam drop his
life
> > just because an old group of friends are getting the old team
together
> > and he was there before. Not enough of a reason for me.
> >
>
> Now you're confused. I did enjoy the New Mutants (it's
> easily my favorite series and team), but I wouldn't want
> them to reform at all. I can't think of one writer I'd want
> to write them now (including CC). I am more than content
> to open up the back issue box and remember the good ol'
> days. I merely said that it would be silly for the NM to
> reform without Sam. If Marvel were to have them reform
> (for whatever reason), Sam should be there. Just like they
> brought back Jean rather than have the original X-Men
> reform without her.
For it not to seem forced to me, they would have to come up with very
good reason for them to reform and an even better reason for Sam to
drop his current life/group. I'd rather them not reform than have it
be forced. To me, Sam has evolved and outgrew the Xavier-ites as
someone else mentioned in the thread. Just my take on it. Your opinion
may differ.
> > > > I know I don't hang out with all my old grade school friends
just
> > > > because we were together so long. We've all grown up and gone
our
> > > > different ways. That's life.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm sorry. I still have lots of friends from that point in my
life
> > > (not that it was that long ago).
> >
> > Several people (myself included) find that the older they get, the
> > further old friends drift apart. You interests change. You get
caught
> > up in life. People move away. I've still got some friends from
back
> > then but I don't hang out with all the same people.
> >
> In my experience, you fall out of touch with your casual
> friends. I won't ever lose touch of my closest friends.
> In reference to what someone else said, the NM are
> just about the only friends they have, so their bond
> would be considerably stronger than old friends to
> you and me.
That is true. Close friend do last. I've got a friend that I've been
close with since I was 5 years old (over 20 years now). That doesn't
mean that we would have to do everything together. I'm not saying that
Sam wouldn't still be their friend. I just don't think it would make
sense for him to leave what he's doing now just because they decide
they want to get the team back together. Where were they all this time
that Sam has been working on X-Force? They left, not him. Rahne left
the New Mutants and went to X-Factor then Excal. Sam didn't leave her.
Dani left for a while and hooked back up with her friends that were
still active in X-Force. Shan left and made a life for herself. Skids
did the same thing. Magma... that's a whole other mess.
I guess at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree
because I still don't see why Sam should abandon X-Force because his
old close friends decide they want to get together again, especially
when he never left.
--
Bruins72
Gorok190
>Shan, I'll love him for life.
Yes, please! You out there CC?
Cypher
> > Now you're confused. I did enjoy the New Mutants (it's
> > easily my favorite series and team), but I wouldn't want
> > them to reform at all. I can't think of one writer I'd want
> > to write them now (including CC). I am more than content
> > to open up the back issue box and remember the good ol'
> > days. I merely said that it would be silly for the NM to
> > reform without Sam. If Marvel were to have them reform
> > (for whatever reason), Sam should be there. Just like they
> > brought back Jean rather than have the original X-Men
> > reform without her.
>
> For it not to seem forced to me, they would have to come up with very
> good reason for them to reform and an even better reason for Sam to
> drop his current life/group. I'd rather them not reform than have it
> be forced. To me, Sam has evolved and outgrew the Xavier-ites as
> someone else mentioned in the thread. Just my take on it. Your opinion
> may differ.
>
Well, the reason the Titans got back together is that one of
their members (Cyborg) tried to take over the world or
something. He was essentially trying to get a sense of
family he had lost. The Titans realized that they are a family
and they reformed. Flash was in the JLA at the time, but he
decided to be in both (which wouldn't be much of a problem
for Wally).
I don't see how Sam could've outgrown Xavier since that's
all he knows. When he told Xavier off, he basically justified
Cable's way of doing things. Regardless, Xavier and Cable
(Mags as well) are not that different. Sam has been fighting
in some kind of supergroup since 16 years old. It's what he
does. When X-Force is gone, Sam will still be fighting.
> > In my experience, you fall out of touch with your casual
> > friends. I won't ever lose touch of my closest friends.
> > In reference to what someone else said, the NM are
> > just about the only friends they have, so their bond
> > would be considerably stronger than old friends to
> > you and me.
>
> That is true. Close friend do last. I've got a friend that I've been
> close with since I was 5 years old (over 20 years now). That doesn't
> mean that we would have to do everything together. I'm not saying that
> Sam wouldn't still be their friend. I just don't think it would make
> sense for him to leave what he's doing now just because they decide
> they want to get the team back together. Where were they all this time
> that Sam has been working on X-Force? They left, not him. Rahne left
> the New Mutants and went to X-Factor then Excal. Sam didn't leave her.
> Dani left for a while and hooked back up with her friends that were
> still active in X-Force. Shan left and made a life for herself. Skids
> did the same thing. Magma... that's a whole other mess.
>
I won't ask exactly what it is he's doing now. Like I said
before, Sam himself has left X-Force before (because he
"graduated"). Sam should've graduated, and he would've
made a great X-Man if they didn't overdo the "new kid
jitters" thing (Kurt handled this much better with Justice
in Avengers).
As for where the others have been, you're making it much
too black and white. Sam left Rahne in Genosha (she
stayed because she was mindlinked to Alex). Dani stayed
in Asgard (she was a Valkyrie after all). Bobby left after
his father died. Sam later rescued him from Gideon. Bobby
left again in the original Reignfire confrontation and Sam
spent the next months angsting and looking for him. Bobby
recently left again because Selene tricked him into joining the
Hellfire Club. Shan left first to find her sibs. The only reason
Sam didn't help her is because Dani said that Shan was a
grown woman and could ask for their help. I still think they
should've went after her after a few months. Amara left
because she was in love with Manny.
I guess the point of this long paragraph is that everyone who
left was essentially forced out (especially poor Doug and 'Yana).
If anyone left of their own volition, it was Sam himself.
> I guess at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree
> because I still don't see why Sam should abandon X-Force because his
> old close friends decide they want to get together again, especially
> when he never left.
>
Once again, you're missing the point. You don't see a
circumstance where Sam would leave X-Force. I OTOH
wasn't even talking about a particular circumstance. I
said that, if Marvel reformed the NM, it wouldn't make
sense to do it without Sam. I would trust Marvel to come
up with a circumstance that's believable (although trust is
OBVIOUSLY the wrong word -- hope is more like it).
Not that I want this to happen, because I don't.
--Cypher
CleV
wrote:
>I won't ask exactly what it is he's doing now. Like I said
>before, Sam himself has left X-Force before (because he
>"graduated"). Sam should've graduated, and he would've
>made a great X-Man if they didn't overdo the "new kid
>jitters" thing (Kurt handled this much better with Justice
>in Avengers).
Heh, I thought you read racmu?
Cypher
CleV <CL...@balJUNKcab.ch> wrote in message
news:39539f62...@news.balcab.ch...
I do, but I guess that discussion was during my years long
hiatus. Still, I did think the Justice thing may have worn a
little thin, but it was resolved quickly. Besides, what they
did to Sam was a total travesty - like they'd never even
read anything about the character.
--Cypher
De Parker
> I don't see how Sam could've outgrown Xavier since that's
> all he knows. When he told Xavier off, he basically justified
> Cable's way of doing things. Regardless, Xavier and Cable
> (Mags as well) are not that different. Sam has been fighting
> in some kind of supergroup since 16 years old. It's what he
> does. When X-Force is gone, Sam will still be fighting.
Xavier and Cable aren't that different? Granted Xavier has hardened up over
the past few years and Cable has been softened, but do you remember the
"Open Hand/Closed Fist" speech Sam gave to Xavier? The goals are the same,
but the methods are drastically different. I think things should be that
way. Also, how many years did Sam actually study under Xavier? Remember
how Xavier left 4 years after NM #1 so that sounds like 3 years with and 15
without.
dp
Cypher
I actually referenced that speech ("when he told Xavier off").
Open hand/closed fist aside, both of them are fighting "the
good fight" for mutant rights, justice, etc. I was saying that
Sam has been doing the same thing for much of his life -
fighting in a mutant supergroup.
Sam didn't study that long under CFX (and CFX was hardly
there anyway). I am confused by your last sentence though.
Is that in reference to Sam's age? While I don't want to get
on that subject, Sam has said in an X-Force issue drawn by
Paul Pelletier that he was 20 (which makes sense). I tend to
think of him as 21 now. For the record, that makes Kitty a
very sensible 20, not 16 :)
--Cypher
De Parker
> goro...@aol.com (Gorok190) wrote:
> The way Xforce was
> on the road trip and the times just before and after had a more
> healthy view than the other X books show. They were optimistic
> and wanted tto do their part but they werent hidding away from
> the real world. They were part of it.
The book is called X-FORCE. The name itself suggests a militant group
devoted to a cause. What we got at the end of Moore's run was crap. I
don't want a "healthier view", and I don't think other X-FORCE fans do
either. Fans of the New Mutants may want this, but their book and most of
its characters have moved on. If this crap continues, X-FORCE fans may have
to move on. Many have already.
dp
De Parker
> I actually referenced that speech ("when he told Xavier off").
> Open hand/closed fist aside, both of them are fighting "the
> good fight" for mutant rights, justice, etc. I was saying that
> Sam has been doing the same thing for much of his life -
> fighting in a mutant supergroup.
That's a given. You aren't saying much here.
> Sam didn't study that long under CFX (and CFX was hardly
> there anyway). I am confused by your last sentence though.
> Is that in reference to Sam's age?
No, it wasn't. Sam's 1st appearence was in 1982. This is 2000. That's 18
years. I believe Xavier was around up until 1985 or possibly 1986. That's
what I meant. I think i messed up the math because I could decide on which
year to use, but it's either 3:15 or 4:14.
> While I don't want to get
> on that subject, Sam has said in an X-Force issue drawn by
> Paul Pelletier that he was 20 (which makes sense). I tend to
> think of him as 21 now.
I agree.
> For the record, that makes Kitty a
> very sensible 20, not 16 :)
IIRC, Kitty was 14 when Sam was 16.
dp
Cypher
> Cypher <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote
>
> > I actually referenced that speech ("when he told Xavier off").
> > Open hand/closed fist aside, both of them are fighting "the
> > good fight" for mutant rights, justice, etc. I was saying that
> > Sam has been doing the same thing for much of his life -
> > fighting in a mutant supergroup.
>
> That's a given. You aren't saying much here.
>
LOL! You started the whole conversation! Someone said
Sam outgrew the "Xavierites" to which I replied I didn't think
he outgrew anything since he's been doing the same thing since
he was 16 (just with different people around him).
> > Sam didn't study that long under CFX (and CFX was hardly
> > there anyway). I am confused by your last sentence though.
> > Is that in reference to Sam's age?
>
> No, it wasn't. Sam's 1st appearence was in 1982. This is 2000. That's
18
> years. I believe Xavier was around up until 1985 or possibly 1986.
That's
> what I meant. I think i messed up the math because I could decide on
which
> year to use, but it's either 3:15 or 4:14.
>
OK.
> > While I don't want to get
> > on that subject, Sam has said in an X-Force issue drawn by
> > Paul Pelletier that he was 20 (which makes sense). I tend to
> > think of him as 21 now.
>
> I agree.
>
Now if we can only convince Marvel :)
> > For the record, that makes Kitty a
> > very sensible 20, not 16 :)
>
> IIRC, Kitty was 14 when Sam was 16.
>
We're both right. Kitty turned 15 while Sam was still 16. That
puts them at somewhere between 13 and 23 months apart (with
Dani somewhere in between).
--Cypher
De Parker
> De Parker <gt5...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote
> > Cypher <jke...@xcelco.on.ca> wrote
> > > I actually referenced that speech ("when he told Xavier off").
> > > Open hand/closed fist aside, both of them are fighting "the
> > > good fight" for mutant rights, justice, etc. I was saying that
> > > Sam has been doing the same thing for much of his life -
> > > fighting in a mutant supergroup.
> > That's a given. You aren't saying much here.
> LOL! You started the whole conversation! Someone said
> Sam outgrew the "Xavierites" to which I replied I didn't think
> he outgrew anything since he's been doing the same thing since
> he was 16 (just with different people around him).
All I've said is that Sam has grown into more than Xavier's student. He's
had other teachers who have taught him for longer periods of time. Plus,
he's a grown man who uses what he's learned from his influential teachers to
make up his own mind as to how things should be done. Due to this
progression, I'd rather he not return to the methods taught by his original
teacher or a team full of his original teammates who haven't changed along
with Sam. I see a big difference between the New Mutants and X-Force, and
at this point, Sam fits where he is. All you said above is that he's
fighting for the rights of mutantkind. That can be said for every character
in the x-books. Like I said, you aren't saying much here.
dp
Cypher
Like I said, for all of Sam's "growth," he's doing the same thing
he was doing at 16. Regardless of who he's doing it with, he's
doing the Xavier-thing. I find it funny that you don't seem to realize
that the other New Mutants have grown just as much as (and in
some cases more than) Sam. When you say that you see a big
difference between the New Mutants and X-Force, I take it you
mean the characters not the groups. If so, I don't see it. All of
the former New Mutants are now young adults at different stages
in their lives. Once again, I have to remind you that it was *you*
who brought up the idea of reforming the NM, not me.
Once again, Sam, Tab, and Jimmy don't belong in that horrible
waste of paper masquerading as "X-Force." :p
--Cypher
De Parker
> Like I said, for all of Sam's "growth," he's doing the same thing
> he was doing at 16. Regardless of who he's doing it with, he's
> doing the Xavier-thing.
I'll see if you can understand my point here. According to you the
"Xavier-thing" is fighting for the rights of mutantkind, and if you do this
and continue to do so no matter how you go about doing it or how different
your methods are, you have not grown and are simply doing the same thing you
did at first. That means that Cyclops's X-Factor as public superheroes,
Havok's X-Factor working for the goverment, X-Force when wanted by the
government, Ellis's Gen X, the XSE, and the original X-Factor all did the
same thing even though none of them did it the same way. There were no
opposing philosophies or different ways execution. It's all the same. They
should just have one team with 50 members.
> I find it funny that you don't seem to realize
> that the other New Mutants have grown just as much as (and in
> some cases more than) Sam. When you say that you see a big
> difference between the New Mutants and X-Force, I take it you
> mean the characters not the groups. If so, I don't see it. All of
> the former New Mutants are now young adults at different stages
> in their lives.
The difference is in the groups and the attitudes they have. Granted, this
attitude has been missing for the last 3 years, but it should be there. Has
it been that long? It started to go about 5 years ago when Loeb turned Star
into a wuss. They've all changed, but putting them together as the New
Mutants and including Sam wouldn't work. I know Sam wouldn't fit. The
others may also have changed to the degree that they also wouldn't fit.
They have grown apart despite what others say. They did not grow up
together. The stayed apart for years.
> Once again, I have to remind you that it was *you*
> who brought up the idea of reforming the NM, not me.
I brought it up as something those who liked Moore's run may want to look
into. It is not something I'm personally pushing for. In fact, I got the
idea from suggestions made in previous posts. The reason I said this in the
first place was to counter those who liked the "New Mutants" feel of Moore's
run. I'm saying that this is X-FORCE, and it shouldn't feel like THE NEW
MUTANTS. Those who want that should look elsewhere.
> Once again, Sam, Tab, and Jimmy don't belong in that horrible
> waste of paper masquerading as "X-Force." :p
No, Wisdom and Ellis don't belong.
dp - who thinks Ellis must really want an ongoing BLACK AIR comic
Gorok190
>
>> The way Xforce was
>> on the road trip and the times just before and after had a more
>> healthy view than the other X books show. They were optimistic
>> and wanted tto do their part but they werent hidding away from
>> the real world. They were part of it.
>
I didn't write that.
jonnyprime
>
>> The way Xforce was
>> on the road trip and the times just before and after had a
more
>> healthy view than the other X books show. They were
optimistic
>> and wanted tto do their part but they werent hidding away from
>> the real world. They were part of it.
>
militant group
>devoted to a cause.
Remember Force Works. They had a similar idea of being a kick
ass macho group. Similar name too. It didnt last. You can only
take that ideal so far until it becomes stale. All it would end
up being is an endless stream of fighting stories. War stories
get rather boring after a while. Punisher was the same way. He
punished. One trick pony.
You might not like the way the characters turned out but I
think thats the only way they could have become. They tried the
para military thing for a while and it got old. They moved on.
All of the traits and beliefs that they had when they were young
would make them who they are today. And what they are now seems
consistant to what theyve been and been through. Their original
personalities hold true today with added experiences of learning
from Xavier, Magneto, and Cable. Their name is X-foce, but that
doesnt call up the images of a group of soldiers to me. To me
it means they are a force to be reckoned with. Dont mess with us
instead of well mess with you first.
>What we got at the end of Moore's run was crap. I
>don't want a "healthier view", and I don't think other X-FORCE
fans do
>either. Fans of the New Mutants may want this, but their book
and most of
>its characters have moved on. If this crap continues, X-FORCE
fans may have
>to move on. Many have already.
>
The X-Foce that you want just wont work anymore. Not with these
characters. Theyve grown up. A more militarial book would have
to have new, different characters. Some that have a followers
mentality. New Mutants who can be trained to be soldiers. The
Muties werent trained for that. They were trained to think for