Lau's art in X-Force 61

[Dan McEwen]

Tomcat wrote:
>
> I just got my copy today, and I have to say...
>
> I think Kevin Lau's artwork was terrific! Now, riddle-me-ree, is Adam
> Pollina gone for the foreseeable future, and if so, is Kevin Lau the
> new X-Force penciller? If I can't have one, I want t'other.
>
I liked the art myself. Last I heard, Pollina was returning following
his completion of the Rise of Apocalypse. We'll have to wait until next
issue to find out if he's back. Pollina and Lau both work for me.

--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org

[Tomcat]

I just got my copy today, and I have to say...

I think Kevin Lau's artwork was terrific! Now, riddle-me-ree, is Adam
Pollina gone for the foreseeable future, and if so, is Kevin Lau the
new X-Force penciller? If I can't have one, I want t'other.

Grrr
Tomcat

[BILL HENEHAN]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I think that Lau's artwork does not
capture the flavor of X-Force. They all looked like X-babies!
Domino looked like she could be 10. This book, along with X-Factor
and the adjectiveless X-Men has been on a steady decline for some
time now. Lau's art isn't helping.
--Billy H
(Hi all. This is my first posting)

[Justin]

Tomcat (sean...@gem.co.za) wrote:
: I just got my copy today, and I have to say...

: I think Kevin Lau's artwork was terrific! Now, riddle-me-ree, is Adam
: Pollina gone for the foreseeable future, and if so, is Kevin Lau the
: new X-Force penciller? If I can't have one, I want t'other.

Anthony Castrillo will pencil the next issue of X-Force, and then
Pollina will take over again. No more Kevin Lau. Personally, I think
that's a good thing. Lau is okay, but he draws his characters,
especially females, way too young. Siryn, for example, looks ten years
younger than she should. I find this rather annoying.
--
Justin Felix * "If all the year were playing holidays,
jfe...@kent.edu * To sport would be as tedious as to work..."
* --Shakespeare, 1 Henry IV

"I'm nothing but a stranger in this world." --Van Morrison, "Astral Weeks"

[D. Perretti]

i dissagree. The characters look like they are 15 years old. The art is
good, but wrong with the ages.

Mike

[swpwa...@aol.com]

Kevin Lau's artwork? Three words... No five:

"Please, God... Make it stop!"

To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the
comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.
His is over the top cutsey fare that makes the characters look
ridiculously unrealistic and incapable of conveying any sort of
emotional reaction or feeling.

Manga is popular in Japan partly because of the differing
cultural tastes (i.e. Alyssa Milanno is a pop star in Japan) and
has no place in comics as anything more than a novelty or
an underground taste.

The fact that the X-Editors allowed this level of over the top
big eyed 13 year old Sailor Moon art into a mainstream comic
shows a complete lack of judgment as well as taste.

I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".

(Shudder) May Manga get its deserved destiny and go the
way of disco. In five years you'll be too ashamed to admit to
the existence of your manga collection!

Man, I HATE Manga!

Aaron

[sei...@aol.com]

Joe is exactly what X-force needs (that and a good writer). Xmen could
then use someone witha more jim lee, more adult artistic form. but they,
thats just me

-----------------
New Jersey Devils '97

"And He said, 'Heed the goat, for it is the harbinger of the apocalypse'". lars 6:12-18

[Justin]

swpwa...@aol.com wrote:
: To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the

: comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.
: His is over the top cutsey fare that makes the characters look
: ridiculously unrealistic and incapable of conveying any sort of
: emotional reaction or feeling.

: Manga is popular in Japan partly because of the differing
: cultural tastes (i.e. Alyssa Milanno is a pop star in Japan) and
: has no place in comics as anything more than a novelty or
: an underground taste.

: The fact that the X-Editors allowed this level of over the top
: big eyed 13 year old Sailor Moon art into a mainstream comic
: shows a complete lack of judgment as well as taste.

: I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
: even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".

While this is rather brutal, I agree with you in theory. I happened
to prefer Lau's work over Castrillo (doesn't that say somthing about
the lack of quality in X-Force?). However, the whole manga-influenced
Madureira and now Lau stuff just doesn't go along with the X-books. I
think Madureira does a more successful job in that at least his
characters do convey a range of emotions, and they still look their
appropriate age. I found Lau's depictions of Siryn and Domino to be
especially bad depictions. They both looked way too young, and Siryn
just completely did not look like Siryn.

: Man, I HATE Manga!

Hmm. It has its place, but that place isn't in the X-books.

: Aaron

[Morgan D. Reinbold]

Tomcat (sean...@gem.co.za) wrote:
: I just got my copy today, and I have to say...

: I think Kevin Lau's artwork was terrific! Now, riddle-me-ree, is Adam
: Pollina gone for the foreseeable future, and if so, is Kevin Lau the
: new X-Force penciller? If I can't have one, I want t'other.

: Grrr
: Tomcat

--

I kind of like his style, some characters more than others, but did
anyone see the cover he did for Wizard recently? Correct me if I'm
wrong, but Wolvie's right ankle looks twisted, and his musculature
is way out of whack even for a mutant - I noticed some new muscles
in his legs and right forearm that I've never seen before, and others
seemed to be missing entirely! He must've been rushed... maybe drunk...

Morgan

^ ^ "But I don't want to go among mad
people," Alice remarked.
<I> <I> "Oh, you can't help that," said the
/____T____\ Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad.
\WWWWWWW/ You're mad."
\MMMMM/ -Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland.

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961203235...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com writes:

> To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the
>comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.

Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made are manga.
Broaden your horizons.

>His is over the top cutsey fare that makes the characters look
>ridiculously unrealistic and incapable of conveying any sort of
>emotional reaction or feeling.

Admittedly I don't like Lau that much. His art looks better on poster's
and such than in actual comics.

> Manga is popular in Japan partly because of the differing
>cultural tastes (i.e. Alyssa Milanno is a pop star in Japan) and
>has no place in comics as anything more than a novelty or
>an underground taste.

It is Japanese ergo it doesn't belong in American mainstream? That is the
stupidest point of view I have ever heard.

> The fact that the X-Editors allowed this level of over the top
>big eyed 13 year old Sailor Moon art into a mainstream comic
>shows a complete lack of judgment as well as taste.

A lack of taste? I happen to enjoy manga and think it is in the best of
taste.

> I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
>even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".

Huh? Because you don't like it noone can have a serious discussion about
it? Heck I don't like Liefeld and I still have rational discussions about
his art.

> (Shudder) May Manga get its deserved destiny and go the
>way of disco. In five years you'll be too ashamed to admit to
>the existence of your manga collection!

Man you are stupid. Someone said the same thing about comic's years ago
I'm sure. New art is required to keep the form alive, and in America,
Manga style art is relatively new.

-David Williams, West...@aol.com
"What will it be like when I get old?"-Descendants

[swpwa...@aol.com]

west...@aol.com wrote:

>In article <19961203235...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>swpwa...@aol.com writes:

>> To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the
>>comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.

>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
>are manga. Broaden your horizons.

That's possible, but they are _manga comics_. Not someone
attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.
Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.

Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
As though the "artist" is _trying_ to draw the character in a
ridiculous manner.

To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,
but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the
X-Men. I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men. Similarly,
manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
mainstream comic.

Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

>> Manga is popular in Japan partly because of the differing
>>cultural tastes (i.e. Alyssa Milanno is a pop star in Japan) and
>>has no place in comics as anything more than a novelty or
>>an underground taste.

>It is Japanese ergo it doesn't belong in American mainstream?

No. It's populaity and origination in Japan comes from differing
cultural tastes. That's not to say it doesn't belong in the American
mainstream, that's to say (like Alissa Millano) it never will.

>That is the stupidest point of view I have ever heard.

You may think it stupid, but it's true. (and you're defending having
your comics drawn by G-rated cartoonists, so imagine what I think
of your point of view).

>> The fact that the X-Editors allowed this level of over the top
>>big eyed 13 year old Sailor Moon art into a mainstream comic
>>shows a complete lack of judgment as well as taste.

>A lack of taste? I happen to enjoy manga and think it is in the best of
>taste.

Exactly.

>> I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
>>even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".

>Huh? Because you don't like it noone can have a serious discussion
>about it? Heck I don't like Liefeld and I still have rational discussions

>about his art.

No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.

And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
unlike
manga artists.

>> (Shudder) May Manga get its deserved destiny and go the
>> way of disco. In five years you'll be too ashamed to admit to
>> the existence of your manga collection!

> Man you are stupid. Someone said the same thing about comic's
> years ago I'm sure. New art is required to keep the form alive, and in
> America, Manga style art is relatively new.

And its short lived life span will hopefully be coming to an end like
all trends and novelties. Someday when you hit puberty and discover
girls, believe me... you'll be hiding your manga under your bed.

Aaron... Anything but manga.

[Lord of deXness]

In article <19961205191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
>from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
>embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.
>

Aaron?

Go read Akira, then come back when you have a clue. Right now, you're
making yourself look foolish and uninformed to the point of appearing
bigoted.

deX!

[Rin]

Aaron, my dear, while I usually respect your opinions to the point of
Sainthood, in this case, I'm forced to disagree.

swpwa...@aol.com wrote:
>
> west...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >In article <19961203235...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >swpwa...@aol.com writes:
>
> >> To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the
> >>comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.
>
> >Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
> >are manga. Broaden your horizons.
>
> That's possible, but they are _manga comics_. Not someone
> attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.
> Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
> happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
> hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.
>
> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
> As though the "artist" is _trying_ to draw the character in a
> ridiculous manner.
>
> To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,
> but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the
> X-Men. I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men. Similarly,
> manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
> or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
> mainstream comic.
>

> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
> from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
> embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

This seems like an incredibly narrow view of the comic-book industry. I
think that one of the great strengths of comics books is the diversity
of the stories that can be told in them. You can have horror/humor like
Preacher or action/soap-opera of X-Men or light-hearted/slapstick like
Ninja High School. Each of these styles has an equally valid reason to
exist and manga is very appropriate for some of them.
Having said all this, let me admit that I don't like Lau
illustrating X-force. I think his Domino especially looks really out of
place (This is a hardened mercenary, not a teeny-bopper) but I do like
manga and even manga-influenced like Joe Mad(whatever the rest of the
name is). I think Lau just went a bit overboard. 'Course, I don't like
Liefield especially either.

> >> Manga is popular in Japan partly because of the differing
> >>cultural tastes (i.e. Alyssa Milanno is a pop star in Japan) and
> >>has no place in comics as anything more than a novelty or
> >>an underground taste.
>
> >It is Japanese ergo it doesn't belong in American mainstream?
>
> No. It's populaity and origination in Japan comes from differing
> cultural tastes. That's not to say it doesn't belong in the American
> mainstream, that's to say (like Alissa Millano) it never will.

It never will belong in American Mainstream? Just 'cause you don't like
it (which is fine--you don't need to) doesn't mean that it can't belong
in mainstream. I think it's already on it's way there.

> >> I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
> >>even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".
>
> >Huh? Because you don't like it noone can have a serious discussion
> >about it? Heck I don't like Liefeld and I still have rational discussions
> >about his art.
>
> No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
> would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.
> And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
> unlike
> manga artists.

Geez, Swp, letting the venom out just a little. Why in the world would
you claim that manga artist aren't comic book artists? IMHO, a comic
book is a publication in which plot and art have an equal share in
telling the story. And if the art is done in a manga style, the artist
is a comic book artist!

> >> (Shudder) May Manga get its deserved destiny and go the
> >> way of disco. In five years you'll be too ashamed to admit to
> >> the existence of your manga collection!
>
> > Man you are stupid. Someone said the same thing about comic's
> > years ago I'm sure. New art is required to keep the form alive, and in
> > America, Manga style art is relatively new.
>
> And its short lived life span will hopefully be coming to an end like
> all trends and novelties. Someday when you hit puberty and discover
> girls, believe me... you'll be hiding your manga under your bed.

If girls are making him hide his manga under the bed, I doubt he'll be
keeping the x-men comics out. And I REALLY resent the idea that anyone
above teens can't enjoy manga. I'm glad you're so certain of your views
to be able to articulate them so carefully, please don't assume the rest
of the world shares them!

> Aaron... Anything but manga.

Rin
--
"This is a revolution, damn it! We're going to have to offend
SOMEbody!"
-- John Adams, 1776
If you have nothing better to do, you might try visiting my web page at
http://www.byu.edu/~kab

[David R. Henry]

Swp writes:

>>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
>>are manga. Broaden your horizons.
>
> That's possible, but they are _manga comics_.

Ah, I see. Separate but equal, right? And the coloreds should
drink from their own water fountain, and the workers should have
no say in how the factory is run, and mutants should be locked
up for both our and their protection.

Hell, man, comics are comics. If they can tell a great story
about Storm written in iambic pentameter with Fauvist painting
for the art, go for it. If the manga-stylized copycatting going
on now helps the story, good for it. But to hate it just because
it's not traditional for the (small) industry we have access to
here in the States? (Pardon moi, out-of-US folks, but it's a
Yank talking to a Yank, here).

>Not someone
>attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.
>Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
>happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
>hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.

This sounds like your personal preference, and not a requirement
of the American comic book industry, then, correct?

> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.

Thereby showing Swp's obviously painfully uniformed viewpoint
on manga.

> To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,
>but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the
>X-Men.

If someone had a great idea on how to use Impressionist art
in an X-Men story, a Rambo story, or a Barbie story, I'd love
to see it. Anything to expand our horizons, see and learn something
new. Or should we bottle up art and only mix and match things
from the proper bottles?

>I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men.

No, you want a comic book artist to draw _your_ version of the
X-Men. Apparently, many of them don't share your inner vision.

>Similarly,
>manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
>or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
>mainstream comic.

Japan arguably has the largest comic book market in the world
today, Swp. We're the scruffy indies here, and they're the
mainstream.

> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
>from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
>embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

??? How you can say that after, just in the X-titles, we've had
to put up with Onslaught, the Creed Presendential Election, and
the Rogue and Gambit LS in the same year, and keep a straight face
is a miracle of acting I must study more in depth in the future.

> No. It's populaity and origination in Japan comes from differing
>cultural tastes. That's not to say it doesn't belong in the American
>mainstream, that's to say (like Alissa Millano) it never will.

Oh, really? Can you pick some stocks for me, also? I could use
some help paying my medical bills.

>>That is the stupidest point of view I have ever heard.
>
> You may think it stupid, but it's true. (and you're defending having
>your comics drawn by G-rated cartoonists, so imagine what I think
>of your point of view).

You're the one arguing mit nichts idee of what yer sprechen,
gospardin. Imagine what those of us who actually know a little
bit of manga think of your point of view, in return, then?
And, heavens, think of those who actually know something about
manga (Me, I just buy Dark Horse and Viz releases, because they're
easy to come by in North Dakota).

>>> The fact that the X-Editors allowed this level of over the top
>>>big eyed 13 year old Sailor Moon art into a mainstream comic
>>>shows a complete lack of judgment as well as taste.
>
>>A lack of taste? I happen to enjoy manga and think it is in the best of
>>taste.
>
> Exactly.

So, you agree that it's in the best of taste?

>>> I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
>>>even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".
>
>>Huh? Because you don't like it noone can have a serious discussion
>>about it? Heck I don't like Liefeld and I still have rational discussions
>
>>about his art.
>
> No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
>would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.

I'm stunned that anyone would want to talk about anything _You_
find important, Swp. After all, it's just what _you're_ interested in.

> And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
>unlike
>manga artists.

Open brain, insert foot.

> And its short lived life span will hopefully be coming to an end like
>all trends and novelties. Someday when you hit puberty and discover
>girls, believe me... you'll be hiding your manga under your bed.

You could obviously try reading some some day, Aaron. But I guess
you're still enjoying all those overplotted rewrites of the
X-titles you prefer to talk about, right?

"Well, I always thought I could tell that I hadn't gone too far
with Rogue because I still maintained my consciousness."
--Richard Darwin
"That's true." --Rogue

--

dhe...@plains.nodak.edu Old Endgame, Lost of Old
Play and Lose and have Done with Losing

[Snowlock]

Before I begin, I'd just like to say thanks to drh for giving me a
reason to delurk.

I suppose you'll all be mad at him now...

David R. Henry wrote:
>
> Swp writes:
>
> >>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
> >>are manga. Broaden your horizons.
> >
> > That's possible, but they are _manga comics_.
>
> Ah, I see. Separate but equal, right? And the coloreds should
> drink from their own water fountain, and the workers should have
> no say in how the factory is run, and mutants should be locked
> up for both our and their protection.

Just because Swp doesn't like a particular style of art means he's a
racist believing in apartied?

(dave offers dave a big juicy plate of perspective)

> Hell, man, comics are comics. If they can tell a great story
> about Storm written in iambic pentameter with Fauvist painting
> for the art, go for it. If the manga-stylized copycatting going
> on now helps the story, good for it.

Yeah, but does it? That's the point. Three years ago, that style was
called "cartoony" and was blacklisted in the American medium, right? I
think, and maybe Swp does too, that there was a valid reason for it.
Personally, I don't like caricatures (as opposed to characters) and
that's largely what I think manga and manga-influenced stuff is all
about. Having one or two lesser known books is one thing, but three X
books devoted to manga!?!? At best, it's over kill, IMO.

> But to hate it just because
> it's not traditional for the (small) industry we have access to
> here in the States? (Pardon moi, out-of-US folks, but it's a
> Yank talking to a Yank, here).

Maybe he hates it because he thinks it's crap, not because four out of
five fanboys don't approve.

> >Not someone
> >attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.
> >Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
> >happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
> >hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.

Ha! Point for Swp.

> This sounds like your personal preference, and not a requirement
> of the American comic book industry, then, correct?

I don't think anybody assumes that the opinions expressed on racmx are
being monitored by BOB for policy consideration.

> > Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
>
> Thereby showing Swp's obviously painfully uniformed viewpoint
> on manga.

Please, then, dave, enlighten... What am I, or any of us that dislike
the manga-influenced stuff missing?

> > To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,
> >but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the
> >X-Men.
>
> If someone had a great idea on how to use Impressionist art
> in an X-Men story, a Rambo story, or a Barbie story, I'd love
> to see it. Anything to expand our horizons, see and learn something
> new. Or should we bottle up art and only mix and match things
> from the proper bottles?

Absulotely not. But OTOH, after mixing, if we find that it's okay,
should we use the same new bottle over and over, and overandoverandover
(well, you get the point).

> >I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men.
>
> No, you want a comic book artist to draw _your_ version of the
> X-Men.

We all want artists to draw _our_ version, don't we?

> >Similarly,
> >manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
> >or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
> >mainstream comic.
>
> Japan arguably has the largest comic book market in the world
> today, Swp. We're the scruffy indies here, and they're the
> mainstream.

Oh come on, Dave. Manga is based ENTIRELY on concepts developed by the
US medium originally. Maybe they traded back and forth since, but every
premise I've ever read or heard about concerning manga has been done
before in either a US comic book or British literary market.

Admittedly, I'm no manga junkie, so I missed a bit of it, but I've read
most of the major works (Akira, GITS, etc) and found it wanting.

> > And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
> >unlike
> >manga artists.
>
> Open brain, insert foot.

LOL.

Ummm, dave, can I borrow this one sometime?

Snowlock.

[Poltergeist]

Justin wrote:
> Anthony Castrillo will pencil the next issue of X-Force, and then
> Pollina will take over again. No more Kevin Lau. Personally, I think
> that's a good thing. Lau is okay, but he draws his characters,
> especially females, way too young. Siryn, for example, looks ten years
> younger than she should. I find this rather annoying.

I'm not going to argue with you that Lau's artwork wasn't perfect. The
only problem that I had was that Domino looked about 16 years old, so
he just needs to work on his older characters more. But this is the
first time in about two years that I have seen X-Force with Legible
Artwork!!

Man, do I miss that.

Poltergeist

[The Man with the Golden Gun]

Just popping in to say a couple of things. DOn't mind me.

David R. Henry came out of hiding to write:

>
> Swp writes:
>
> >Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
> >happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
> >hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.

I happen to like that as well, but I have to admit, there are exceptions.
Roy Crane's 'bigfoot' style can grate, but the man is still a brilliant
artist.

>
> You're the one arguing mit nichts idee of what yer sprechen,
> gospardin.

drh? Methinks you put some German and a little Russian in a blender and
pulsed it for a while.

Not that I mind, it's just disorienting.
>
> Open brain, insert foot.

That would hurt.

-Scaramanga, astonished to learn that the US government owns the rights to
one of the most infamous porn movies of all time.
--
The Man with the Golden Gun, Craig Lovelace, founder of MAVWWDBN
Bartender: Come to think of it, he did say something before he shot
himself. I think it was 'Heil.' Funny how they hold on to
that word.
Bond: Yes, isn't it . . .
-from Ian Fleming's Moonraker

[Wei-Hwa Huang]

swpwa...@aol.com writes:
> west...@aol.com wrote:
>>swpwa...@aol.com writes:

>>> To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the
>>>comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.

>>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made

>>are manga. Broaden your horizons.

> That's possible, but they are _manga comics_. Not someone

>attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.

>Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
>happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
>hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.

> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.

>As though the "artist" is _trying_ to draw the character in a
>ridiculous manner.

> To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,

>but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the

>X-Men. I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men. Similarly,

>manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
>or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
>mainstream comic.

> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away

>from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
>embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

Let me point out a few things:

1. "Manga" style art is not defined by the way characters are drawn.
Many popular Japanese artists draw their characters with small eyes
and proportional bodies (Hojo Tsukasa, for example).

2. There are many staples of the comic medium which were invented
in manga first and only used in American mainstream recently.
For example:

(a) Loosening of panel borders. See that panel that seems to
go off the page? See those black squares in the background?
See that narrative balloon that overlaps two panels? See the
page that only contains two long vertical panels? That's
"manga" style.

(b) Subjective motion. When Quicksilver runs through a city,
do you see:
(i) A detailed city, complete with people getting their
hats blown off, with a Quicksilver-colored streak going
through their midst; OR
(ii) Quicksilver drawn in detail, as the background (city)
gets the streaking lines, as if it were going backwards
at great speed?
Well, (i) is your American Tradition. (ii) is an invention from
manga.

Do you like these "foreign" innovations, or would you prefer to
read X-Force in a format like Uncanny #1?

--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for != while, no matter what Kernigan & Ritchie say.

[Juan A. Barrios Molina]

In article <32AB3A...@tcnj.edu>, Poltergeist <cin...@tcnj.edu>
wrote:

>I'm not going to argue with you that Lau's artwork wasn't perfect.
The
>only problem that I had was that Domino looked about 16 years old, so
>he just needs to work on his older characters more. But this is the
>first time in about two years that I have seen X-Force with Legible
>Artwork!!
>
>Man, do I miss that.
>
>Poltergeist

Hi Poltergeist:

IMHO, I don't have problem with diverse comics influences in
X-Titles art. The heart of the matter is to kepp the good quality.
Kevin Lau's work is not bad because is Manga-inspired. It's bad
because his quality is not good. His first shortcomming is
on the proportion department. What happened to Mindblend on the last
issue? She (Or it was he?) looked like Knightfall Batman!! And the
inks didn't help it.

Hopefully we will have to stand just one horrendous issue by Anthony
Castrillo to welcome Adam Pollina back!!

And if you mean good art, Tony Daniel stint, I would admit
the kid's is quite but his attitude and bloodlust in terms of style
has turned him into grunt meat for McFArlane.

He was destined to leave X-Force.

Later.

Tony.

----------
Juan. A. Barrios Molina
E-Mail: wea...@prtc.net
E-Mail: weap...@fgallery.com
WWW: http://i.got.none.booo

[swpwa...@aol.com]

(Okay, Children and the Law down... Next up Con Law II...
December 19th almost here!)

Rin wrote:

>Aaron, my dear, while I usually respect your opinions to the point of
>Sainthood, in this case, I'm forced to disagree.

Can I still retain my Sainthood, though?

>swpwa...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> west...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>>In article <19961203235...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

>>>swpwa...@aol.com writes:
>
>>>> To be brutally honest, his artwork is an embarrasment to the
>>>>comic industry as a whole... as is the entire "Manga" influence.
>
>>>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
>>>are manga. Broaden your horizons.
>
>> That's possible, but they are _manga comics_. Not someone
>> attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.
>> Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
>> happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
>> hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.
>
>> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
>> As though the "artist" is _trying_ to draw the character in a
>> ridiculous manner.

>> To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,
>> but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the
>> X-Men. I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men. Similarly,
>> manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
>> or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
>> mainstream comic.
>
>> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
>> from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
>> embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

>This seems like an incredibly narrow view of the comic-book industry. I

>think that one of the great strengths of comics books is the diversity
>of the stories that can be told in them.

No argument here. (I actually BOUGHT Strangers In Paradise #1 and
something called "Stonewall in the Shenandoah")

>You can have horror/humor like Preacher or action/soap-opera of X-Men or
>light-hearted/slapstick like Ninja High School. Each of these styles has
an
>equally valid reason to exist and manga is very appropriate for some of
>them.

You are absolutely right... But by that same token, doesn't taking
manga from its intended field and proper subject matter and forcing it
into a mainstream comic destory its uniqueness... and leave you with a
simple trendy new art style that everyone and their grandmother is
following, rather than an innovative new style that speaks for itself?

And conversly doesn't putting an intended serious-tone straight
superhero comic under the art direction of caricatures and parody
destroy its uniqueness and turn it into a "funny" book?

>Having said all this, let me admit that I don't like Lau illustrating
X-force.
>I think his Domino especially looks really out of place (This is a
hardened
>mercenary, not a teeny-bopper)

One of my points exactly. That wasn't Domino... Lau destoyed continuity

in that issue... How can you visually reconcile that teenage doe eyed
weakling
Domino with the tough as nails cat-like Domino drawn by Churchill or
Pollina?
I can't... The issue may as well have never been published because I can't

recognize that story as really having happened in continuity (it was like
seeing Cockrum coming back).

>but I do like manga and even manga-influenced like Joe Mad(whatever the
>rest of the name is).

I think he has done a decent job of toning down his out of control
style
of a year ago... And flat-out that was the best non-Jim Lee Rogue I have
ever seen drawn by anyone. Innovative, original, simple and very, very
believable and beautiful. (I read Uncanny #341 three times through
-- great opening page!).

>I think Lau just went a bit overboard.

No he didn't go overboard at all. He drew his trade... Manga. Matsuda,
Madureira, and Cruz are "mangainfluenced/inspired" They are capable
of going overboard.... Lau, is a full-blown manga artist (he drew
Cyberforce
#24 and did the same thing). There isn't anything wrong with that... Just
let
him draw manga comics and leave the X-Men to comic book artists who still
consider proportinality and realism goals of there comic art and prefer
emotional expression to cute and adorable.

>'Course, I don't like Liefield especially either.

Me neither. (Those Avengers need an enema or something)

>> >> Manga is popular in Japan partly because of the differing
>> >>cultural tastes (i.e. Alyssa Milanno is a pop star in Japan) and
>> >>has no place in comics as anything more than a novelty or
>> >>an underground taste.
>

>> >It is Japanese ergo it doesn't belong in American mainstream?

>
>> No. It's populaity and origination in Japan comes from differing
>> cultural tastes. That's not to say it doesn't belong in the American
>> mainstream, that's to say (like Alissa Millano) it never will.

>It never will belong in American Mainstream? Just 'cause you don't like>

>it (which is fine--you don't need to) doesn't mean that it can't belong
>in mainstream. I think it's already on it's way there.

And maybe Michael Jackson will be cool again, too.

>>>> I find it so offensive that I'm stunned that people could
>>>>even have a serious discussion of his "artwork".
>
>>>Huh? Because you don't like it noone can have a serious discussion
>>>about it? Heck I don't like Liefeld and I still have rational
discussions
>>>about his art.
>
>> No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
>> would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.

>> And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
>> unlike manga artists.

> Geez, Swp, letting the venom out just a little.

I _am_ taking finals so maybe manga has just become my
temproray punching bag/archenemy. ;)

>Why in the world would you claim that manga artist aren't comic book
>artists? IMHO, a comic book is a publication in which plot and art have
>an equal share in telling the story. And if the art is done in a manga
style,
>the artist is a comic book artist!

That's terrific logic, but manga artists still aren't comic book
artists.
Again, that's not meant as a cut down. Alex Ross isn't a comic book
artist... He's an amazingly talented comic book painter. Kevin Lau may
be an amazingly talented manga artists (if you like manga), but he's not
a comic book artist.

Why should we encourage reversion to 60's style dopey-childish art?
Imagin the "Dark Phoenix Saga" drawn manga.... How Classic would that
story have been? How powerful would Jean Grey's very human sacrfice had
been had she tripped over her size 35 feet on the way to the that cannon?

>>>> (Shudder) May Manga get its deserved destiny and go the
>>>> way of disco. In five years you'll be too ashamed to admit to
>>>> the existence of your manga collection!
>
>>> Man you are stupid. Someone said the same thing about comic's
>>> years ago I'm sure. New art is required to keep the form alive, and in
>>> America, Manga style art is relatively new.
>

>> And its short lived life span will hopefully be coming to an end
like
>> all trends and novelties. Someday when you hit puberty and discover
>> girls, believe me... you'll be hiding your manga under your bed.

>If girls are making him hide his manga under the bed, I doubt he'll be

>keeping the x-men comics out.

That's a point... Amazing that I even get dates if you saw my room!

>And I REALLY resent the idea that anyone above teens can't enjoy
>manga.

I never said that. You can be an old codger and still enjoy manga.
Lots of older people still read Archie and enjoy that humerous cartoony
art. Manga can appeal similarly. (I still enjoy an occasional Garfield!)

>I'm glad you're so certain of your views to be able to articulate them so

>carefully, please don't assume the rest of the world shares them!

Certainly not. I read the letters columns of the X-Book's. Lots of
people
out there love certain stories and artists that I can't for the life of me

undertstand. I hate manga. I don't want to read it in the X-Book's. But
if enough people like it, then Lau will be brought back and manga will
take over the X-Universe.

I'm just trying to speak up before its too late!

Aaron... Manga... I stab at thee!

[swpwa...@aol.com]

whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:

>Let me point out a few things:

>1. "Manga" style art is not defined by the way characters are drawn.
>Many popular Japanese artists draw their characters with small eyes
>and proportional bodies (Hojo Tsukasa, for example).

That's a lesson for me. But if manga is not the art style... then
what is it?

>2. There are many staples of the comic medium which were
>invented in manga first and only used in American mainstream recently.
>For example:

> (a) Loosening of panel borders. See that panel that seems to
> go off the page? See those black squares in the background?
> See that narrative balloon that overlaps two panels? See the
> page that only contains two long vertical panels? That's
> "manga" style.

Sorry, but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. It might be

more visually pleasing but it often destroys narrative flow and
storytelling.
One quality lost on many popular artists today is their apparent inabilty
to tell a fluid story (even Adam Pollina whose art I find emotionally
moving
is a lousy storytellling -- you try following his layouts for some of ROA
issues).

Paul Smith drew The Golden Age with tight bordered panels. Frank
Miller drew Batman:TDKR with tight and small panels. Dave Gibbons
drew Watchmen with a consistent string of nine panel small squares
per page and didn't need to resort to full-page panels or splash pages
until the 12th and final issue.... And John Byrne ccould use tight
panels to masterfully take you from setting to setting, fluidly without
losing narrative for 30 some issues of X-Men.

If manga style is encouraging the sacrfice of fluid storytelling for
flashy splash pages and undisciplined panels... well your not
making me like manga anymore.

> (b) Subjective motion. When Quicksilver runs through a city,
> do you see:
> (i) A detailed city, complete with people getting their
> hats blown off, with a Quicksilver-colored streak going
> through their midst;

Hopefully. That's a great sense of speed... by contrasting it
with still motion.

>OR
> (ii) Quicksilver drawn in detail, as the background (city)
> gets the streaking lines, as if it were going backwards
> at great speed?

So it seems like he's standing still and the city is spinning
around him giving the effect that he's trippin' with the Brady's
or on some other form of hallucinigin?

> Well, (i) is your American Tradition. (ii) is an invention from
> manga.

>Do you like these "foreign" innovations, or would you prefer to
>read X-Force in a format like Uncanny #1?

Funny that you should mention that issue.... Beacuse I really
don't see any difference between manga and kiddy-art of the 60's.
If Lau were guiding the X-Men, I'm sure there would be a pet Mutant-dog
arriving at the mansion anyday and he'd probably have cute little hearts
dancing around his head. Or maybe next time Bishop gets beat up
(which should be any minute now) he can see birds flying around his
head?

You can keep the innovations. I'll take Byrne circa Uncanny #135
and Smith circa Golden Age. Simple, clean, fluid, real, dynamic, and
emotionally and visually powerful. And none of their characters wear
shoes sizes bigger than Shaquile O'Neil.

Aaron... People... I just don't like manga! Get over it!

[swpwa...@aol.com]

Snowlock wrote:

>Before I begin, I'd just like to say thanks to drh for giving me a
>reason to delurk.

And I'd like to apologize for giving _drh_ a reason to delurk.

>I suppose you'll all be mad at him now...

More mad at myself right about now...

>David R. Henry wrote:
>
>> Swp writes:
>

>>>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
>>>are manga. Broaden your horizons.
>
>>> That's possible, but they are _manga comics_.
>

>>Ah, I see. Separate but equal, right? And the coloreds should
>>drink from their own water fountain, and the workers should have
>>no say in how the factory is run, and mutants should be locked
>>up for both our and their protection.

>Just because Swp doesn't like a particular style of art means he's a
>racist believing in apartied?

>(dave offers dave a big juicy plate of perspective)

Yeah, I never imagined him for such dramatics. The Springer show
must be rerunning late nights.

>> Hell, man, comics are comics. If they can tell a great story
>> about Storm written in iambic pentameter with Fauvist painting
>> for the art, go for it. If the manga-stylized copycatting going
>> on now helps the story, good for it.

>Yeah, but does it? That's the point. Three years ago, that style was
>called "cartoony" and was blacklisted in the American medium, right? I
>think, and maybe Swp does too, that there was a valid reason for it.

Yeah... As I've explained in my other posts on this thread. It simply
lacks serious storytelling qualities. Now if you've got a humerous book
going (like say Ramos' Impulse) then maybe it works. But straight
superhero fare? Uh Uh. You're destroying its own inherent uniqueness
by forcing it to merge with a cartoony, parody, caricature (whatever)
style.

>Personally, I don't like caricatures (as opposed to characters) and
>that's largely what I think manga and manga-influenced stuff is all
>about.

How else do you explain such a complete lack of regard for drawing
the human body with correct proportions. I don't even like those bulging
(muscles or oversized breasts) heroes... But to throw purposely oversized
eyes and feet and button sized mouths to get some kind of chil-like image
of what is supposed to be an adult super-hero? That's more than I can
handle
and not something I care to read.

>Having one or two lesser known books is one thing, but three X
>books devoted to manga!?!? At best, it's over kill, IMO.

But where will it end? Deadpool, X-Factor, Uncanny, and how many
others? And one of my main points was, if this is now acceptable and
even desirable in the X-Editorial offices, then how long until the
majority
of X-Book's are drwan this way? They can pick dozens of no-name
manga artists out of their "A" file Submissions box and pay them
a minimum page rate to turn the X-Universe into Sailor Moon.

Outrageous? Well a couple years ago did you think it would be this
prevelent?

>> But to hate it just because
>> it's not traditional for the (small) industry we have access to
>> here in the States? (Pardon moi, out-of-US folks, but it's a
>> Yank talking to a Yank, here).

>Maybe he hates it because he thinks it's crap, not because four
>out of five fanboys don't approve.

Man, you're reading my mind.

>>>Not someone
>>>attempting to bring that cupey doll style to a mainstream comic.
>>>Maybe some people go for Humberto Ramos and the like, but I
>>>happen to like my characters drawn with eyes smaller than their
>>>hands and feet smaller than the entirety of their body.

>Ha! Point for Swp.

Score! But... But... It's true!

>> This sounds like your personal preference, and not a requirement
>> of the American comic book industry, then, correct?

>I don't think anybody assumes that the opinions expressed on racmx are
>being monitored by BOB for policy consideration.

Again... You are stating the obvious. drh just got a little testy and
wanted (as per usual) to make mountains out of mole-hills. He follows
a farely common standard of arguments of building up his own by creating
or imaging his (in his mind) opponents.

>>> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
>

>> Thereby showing Swp's obviously painfully uniformed viewpoint
>> on manga.

>Please, then, dave, enlighten... What am I, or any of us that dislike
>the manga-influenced stuff missing?

I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What is

the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!

>>> To put it in a universal manner... Monet was a brilliant painter,
>>>but I wouldn't want him or any other Impressionist to draw the
>>>X-Men.
>

>> If someone had a great idea on how to use Impressionist art
>> in an X-Men story, a Rambo story, or a Barbie story, I'd love
>> to see it. Anything to expand our horizons, see and learn something
>> new. Or should we bottle up art and only mix and match things
>> from the proper bottles?

>Absulotely not. But OTOH, after mixing, if we find that it's okay,
>should we use the same new bottle over and over, and overandoverandover
>(well, you get the point).

Or if we mix and find that it just doesn't work... Do you keep
attempting
it over and over hopeing that you will find some new potential market to
increase sales?

>>>I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men.
>

>> No, you want a comic book artist to draw _your_ version of the
>> X-Men.

>We all want artists to draw _our_ version, don't we?

See above and above. If you don't see what you want to see to fit
your catchy zinger... Make it up (or purposely misinterpret), then
attribute it to your opponent, then fire away.

>>>Similarly,
>>>manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
>>>or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
>>>mainstream comic.
>

>> Japan arguably has the largest comic book market in the world
>> today, Swp. We're the scruffy indies here, and they're the
>> mainstream.

>Oh come on, Dave. Manga is based ENTIRELY on concepts
>developed by the US medium originally. Maybe they traded back
>and forth since, but every premise I've ever read or heard about
>concerning manga has been done before in either a US comic book
>or British literary market.

And when I start seeing pure manga comics from overseas or the US
start to dominate the top 100 sales charts, then I'll conceded the comic
book market to Japan. Right now? You've got to be kidding me. All that
tells me is that my theory that the Japanese and American comic book
markets are inherently different is that much more accurate.

>Admittedly, I'm no manga junkie, so I missed a bit of it, but I've read
>most of the major works (Akira, GITS, etc) and found it wanting.

There is tons of this stuff lying around the studio (underground and
popular works alike)... I can't, can't, can't see the quality in it. That
doesn't mean others can't or it by definition sucks... It just means
I do not consider it true comic book art and believe it is ruining
the medium (mainstream comics) that I love. Simple.

Aaron.... Manga may not be bad for your health now... but they used to

say the same thing about cigarettes!

[west...@aol.com]

In article <32AAA5...@northernnet.com>, Snowlock
<ba...@northernnet.com> writes:

>Please, then, dave, enlighten... What am I, or any of us that dislike
>the manga-influenced stuff missing?

Well...where do I begin? You see not all manga is oversized hands and eyes
as you see in Maduria's style. Look at Sanctuary, Akira, The Professional,
or Fist of the North Star.

>We all want artists to draw _our_ version, don't we?

No. I don't create comics. Other people do. I want to see what they do. If
I wanted an artist to draw my version, I would stop spending my money on
other peoples vision and draw my own X-Men. I just happen to believe that
certain people know more about comics than I do.

>Oh come on, Dave. Manga is based ENTIRELY on concepts developed by the
>US medium originally. Maybe they traded back and forth since, but every
>premise I've ever read or heard about concerning manga has been done
>before in either a US comic book or British literary market.
>

>Admittedly, I'm no manga junkie, so I missed a bit of it, but I've read
>most of the major works (Akira, GITS, etc) and found it wanting.

So, you have read a minority of the available Manga, BUT you are able to
extrapolate this to a huge market? You know I listened to a couple of
George Jones songs. I must be an expert on country music.

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961210085...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com writes:

> Aaron... People... I just don't like manga! Get over it!

That's your opinion Aaron, but when you say it isn't comic book art you
offend many people, myself included, with your ignorance.

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961210084...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com writes:

> You are absolutely right... But by that same token, doesn't taking
>manga from its intended field and proper subject matter and forcing it
>into a mainstream comic destory its uniqueness... and leave you with a
>simple trendy new art style that everyone and their grandmother is
>following, rather than an innovative new style that speaks for itself?
>
> And conversly doesn't putting an intended serious-tone straight
>superhero comic under the art direction of caricatures and parody
>destroy its uniqueness and turn it into a "funny" book?

If you can honestly call X-Men a "serious" book, you have problems.

>>Having said all this, let me admit that I don't like Lau illustrating
>X-force.
>>I think his Domino especially looks really out of place (This is a
>hardened
>>mercenary, not a teeny-bopper)
>
> One of my points exactly. That wasn't Domino... Lau destoyed
continuity
>
>in that issue... How can you visually reconcile that teenage doe eyed
>weakling
>Domino with the tough as nails cat-like Domino drawn by Churchill or
>Pollina?
>I can't... The issue may as well have never been published because I
can't
>
>recognize that story as really having happened in continuity (it was like

>seeing Cockrum coming back).

<snip>

>>I think Lau just went a bit overboard.
>
> No he didn't go overboard at all. He drew his trade... Manga.

So all women in Manga are 17 yr old? What manga are you reading? The
problem with Lau's art is that it isn't very good. He needs more
experience. The problem is not that it has a manga influence.

>Matsuda, Madureira, and Cruz are "mangainfluenced/inspired" They are
capable
>of going overboard.... Lau, is a full-blown manga artist (he drew
>Cyberforce
>#24 and did the same thing). There isn't anything wrong with that... Just
>let
>him draw manga comics and leave the X-Men to comic book artists who still

>consider proportinality and realism goals of there comic art and prefer
>emotional expression to cute and adorable.

Well, since he is drawing X-Force, which is not a manga comic, and I have
never seen a manga comic by Lau, he is not a manga artist. Manga is a word
that describes Japanese comics pure and simple. Unless he is drawing
comics in Japan, he is not a manga artist. He is influenced by the style
of some manga artists though, same as Maduria, Matsuda, Cruz, Ramos, Lee,
Liefeld, and a host of other American artists.

<snip>

>>> >It is Japanese ergo it doesn't belong in American mainstream?
>>
>>> No. It's populaity and origination in Japan comes from differing
>>> cultural tastes. That's not to say it doesn't belong in the American
>>> mainstream, that's to say (like Alissa Millano) it never will.
>
>>It never will belong in American Mainstream? Just 'cause you don't
like>
>>it (which is fine--you don't need to) doesn't mean that it can't belong
>>in mainstream. I think it's already on it's way there.
>
> And maybe Michael Jackson will be cool again, too.

And how does this apply?

<snip>

>>> No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
>>> would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.
>>> And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
>>> unlike manga artists.

And manga artist don't draw comic books? Sanctuary isn't a comic book?
Akira wasn't a comic book? If so, how do you define "comic book"?

>>Why in the world would you claim that manga artist aren't comic book
>>artists? IMHO, a comic book is a publication in which plot and art have

>>an equal share in telling the story. And if the art is done in a manga
>style,
>>the artist is a comic book artist!
>
> That's terrific logic, but manga artists still aren't comic book
>artists.
>Again, that's not meant as a cut down. Alex Ross isn't a comic book
>artist... He's an amazingly talented comic book painter.

And painting isn't art?

>Kevin Lau may
>be an amazingly talented manga artists (if you like manga), but he's not
>a comic book artist.
>
> Why should we encourage reversion to 60's style dopey-childish art?

60's style? Since when is manga 60's style?

>Imagin the "Dark Phoenix Saga" drawn manga.... How Classic would that
>story have been? How powerful would Jean Grey's very human sacrfice had
>been had she tripped over her size 35 feet on the way to the that cannon?

<snip>

> Aaron... Manga... I stab at thee!

I am beginning to see a pattern...You seem to want to pigeon hole what
comics are and that can't be done. Look at Johnny the Homicidal Maniac
from SLG. It's art is very different from typical X-Men fair, but it is
still a comic book. Look at BWS:Storyteller. It enlarged size
differentiates it from other comics, but it is still a comic. Same with
Acme Novelty Library and its smaller size. Comics are a broad art Aaron.
Saying that Manga doesn't qualify as a comic book is ignorant.

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961210092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com writes:

>
> I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What
is
>the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
>artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!

Purpose? What is the "purpose" in Lee's style or Byrne's style? What is
the purpose in Picasso's style? It is art. If you don't like it, don't buy
it. But don't discredit it as a form of art. And don't create a broad
generalization about an entire form of art based on a few imitators.

<snip>

> And when I start seeing pure manga comics from overseas or the US
>start to dominate the top 100 sales charts, then I'll conceded the comic
>book market to Japan. Right now? You've got to be kidding me. All that
>tells me is that my theory that the Japanese and American comic book
>markets are inherently different is that much more accurate.

The top 100 sales chart only covers the American market. It doesn't cover
the enormous amount of sales in Japan. Why do you think animation is so
prevelant in Japan? It is because comics are regarded more seriously
there. And so sales are higher. And so there is a larger market. Ans
(finally the point) there are more made.

>>Admittedly, I'm no manga junkie, so I missed a bit of it, but I've read
>>most of the major works (Akira, GITS, etc) and found it wanting.
>
> There is tons of this stuff lying around the studio (underground and
>popular works alike)... I can't, can't, can't see the quality in it. That
>doesn't mean others can't or it by definition sucks... It just means
>I do not consider it true comic book art and believe it is ruining
>the medium (mainstream comics) that I love. Simple.

Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it not "true comic book
art." I hate Liefeld's art, but I do concede that it is comic book art,
just not good art.

> Aaron.... Manga may not be bad for your health now... but they used
to
>say the same thing about cigarettes!

Hmm....

[Lord of deXness]

In article <19961210084...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I never said that. You can be an old codger and still enjoy manga.
>Lots of older people still read Archie and enjoy that humerous cartoony
>art. Manga can appeal similarly. (I still enjoy an occasional Garfield!)
>

Aaron:

Do you realize that statements like this one make you sound like an
uninformed idiot? I understand that you dislike manga/anime, but realize
that you're dismissing an immense diversity of styles based on one
specific style. Most of your arguments sound like someone dismissing the
art of Bachalo, Daniel, and Jim Lee because Scott Adams draws Dilbert
without pupils or a mouth and many of the supporting characters have
gravity-defying hairstyles. I don't know the comic art as well as I'd
like, but I challenge you to point out an cuteness or disproprtion in the
human characters of _Fist of the North Star_, _Akira_, or _Ninja Scroll_.

deX!

[Hohn Cho]

In article <19961210092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:

> Yeah... As I've explained in my other posts on this thread. It simply
>lacks serious storytelling qualities. Now if you've got a humerous book
>going (like say Ramos' Impulse) then maybe it works. But straight
>superhero fare? Uh Uh. You're destroying its own inherent uniqueness
>by forcing it to merge with a cartoony, parody, caricature (whatever)
>style.

Have you seen Humberto Ramos' work in DV8? It's excellent, and it hardly
detracts from the serious nature of the book.

> But where will it end? Deadpool, X-Factor, Uncanny, and how many
>others? And one of my main points was, if this is now acceptable and
>even desirable in the X-Editorial offices, then how long until the
>majority of X-Book's are drwan this way? They can pick dozens of no-name
>manga artists out of their "A" file Submissions box and pay them
>a minimum page rate to turn the X-Universe into Sailor Moon.
> Outrageous? Well a couple years ago did you think it would be this
>prevelent?

Comics books, like most merchandise, respond to market forces. If
Manga-style art is becoming more and more prevalent, that's probably
because there's a very real market incentive for it. You might not like
it, but there it is. It's tough being the minority opinion, innit?

> Again... You are stating the obvious. drh just got a little testy and
>wanted (as per usual) to make mountains out of mole-hills. He follows
>a farely common standard of arguments of building up his own by creating
>or imaging his (in his mind) opponents.

No, I got the impression that drh was responding negatively to your
trademark over-the-top: expressions of your opinions as the TRVTH;
demonstrations of bigotry, intolerance and unwarranted condescension; and
your foolish willingness to trumpet your ignorance by popping off when you
don't know what the hell you're talking about. Like when you were railing
on Larry Hama's Wolverine stuff without having read the pertinent issues.
Or dismissing drh's fiction without ever having read any of it. You know,
stuff like this:

---

> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
>from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
>embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

[...]

> No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
>would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.

[...]

> And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
>unlike manga artists.

[...]

> And its short lived life span will hopefully be coming to an end like
>all trends and novelties. Someday when you hit puberty and discover
>girls, believe me... you'll be hiding your manga under your bed.

[...]

>>whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>>1. "Manga" style art is not defined by the way characters are drawn.
>>Many popular Japanese artists draw their characters with small eyes
>>and proportional bodies (Hojo Tsukasa, for example).
>
> That's a lesson for me. But if manga is not the art style... then
>what is it?

---

The above quoted statements speak for themselves.

Maybe if you'd think a little bit more before you post, you wouldn't catch
so much flak. And before you start off on your "poor oppressed Aaron"
bit, it's not just drh and me.

--
Sincerely,
Hohn Cho
hoh...@kaiwan.com

[The Man with the Golden Gun]

swpwa...@aol.com wrote:

> Aaron.... Manga may not be bad for your health now... but they used to
> say the same thing about cigarettes!

They still do say the same thing about cigarettes. Besides, they're good.

-Scaramanga, smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

[The Man with the Golden Gun]

swpwa...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> (Those Avengers need an enema or something)

I thought the problem was that they already had one (or in some cases,
several).

-Scaramanga, that, or they're in dire need of Ex-lax.

[swpwa...@aol.com]

west...@aol.com wrote:

>In article <19961210092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>swpwa...@aol.com writes:

>
>> I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What
>> is the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
>> artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!

>Purpose? What is the "purpose" in Lee's style or Byrne's style?

So then characters are drawn disproportionately just for the sake of
it?
I was hoping there was something more to it.

>What is the purpose in Picasso's style? It is art. If you don't like it,
don't
>buy it.

My point exactly. By crossing over into the X-Book's it's forcing
me to decide whether or not to skip an X-Title or be forced to accept
a book with manga art.

That's not a fair choice, to me. That means eventually (if this trend
continues) I won't be able to enjoy the X-Men anymore.

>> And when I start seeing pure manga comics from overseas or the US
>>start to dominate the top 100 sales charts, then I'll conceded the comic
>>book market to Japan. Right now? You've got to be kidding me. All that
>>tells me is that my theory that the Japanese and American comic book
>>markets are inherently different is that much more accurate.

>The top 100 sales chart only covers the American market. It doesn't cover
>the enormous amount of sales in Japan.

I'm not contesting one way or another whether or not comic sales as a
whole are higher in Japan than they are in the U.S. I'm saying that no
Japanese manga comic is consistently a top seller in the U.S. which
gives credence to the idea that the two countries have very differing
tastes in comics.

>Why do you think animation is so prevelant in Japan? It is because
>comics are regarded more seriously there. And so sales are higher.
>And so there is a larger market. Ans (finally the point) there are more
>made.

Again, when I see Japanese comics outselling their American counter
parts in the U.S. then I will concede manga as THE definitive comic
book style. As of now however, it is still limited to an artistic
influence and
those titles which sell moderately well as a whole.

>> There is tons of this stuff lying around the studio (underground and
>>popular works alike)... I can't, can't, can't see the quality in it.
That
>>doesn't mean others can't or it by definition sucks... It just means
>>I do not consider it true comic book art and believe it is ruining
>>the medium (mainstream comics) that I love. Simple.

>Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it not "true comic
book
>art."

In my eyes it does (which is what I said). Not a rule... Not anything
that you have to agree with, but my opinion of an art form which I do
not believe mixes well with mainstream superhero comics.

If you insist... I'll keep saying it.

Aaron

[swpwa...@aol.com]

Subject: Re: Lau's art in X-Force 61

djp...@fas.harvard.edu (Lord of deXness) wrote:

>Aaron:

>Do you realize that statements like this one make you sound like an
>uninformed idiot?

Uhhh... Do you realize that statements like this destroy the
possibility
of me listening or taking seriously anything you have to say? Now do you
want me to personally insult you or do you want to try again?

Aaron

[swpwa...@aol.com]

Hohn Cho wrote:

In article <19961210092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:

>> Yeah... As I've explained in my other posts on this thread. It simply
>>lacks serious storytelling qualities. Now if you've got a humerous book
>>going (like say Ramos' Impulse) then maybe it works. But straight
>>superhero fare? Uh Uh. You're destroying its own inherent uniqueness
>>by forcing it to merge with a cartoony, parody, caricature (whatever)
>>style.

>Have you seen Humberto Ramos' work in DV8? It's excellent, and it hardly
>detracts from the serious nature of the book.

In your opinion. I thumb through comped compies, take a look at the art

and toss it back in the box. I loved the look of these chracters when Jim
Lee drew them, but until Ramos leaves the book I won't be reading it.

>> But where will it end? Deadpool, X-Factor, Uncanny, and how many
>>others? And one of my main points was, if this is now acceptable and
>>even desirable in the X-Editorial offices, then how long until the
>>majority of X-Book's are drwan this way? They can pick dozens of no-name

>>manga artists out of their "A" file Submissions box and pay them
>>a minimum page rate to turn the X-Universe into Sailor Moon.
>> Outrageous? Well a couple years ago did you think it would be this
>>prevelent?

>Comics books, like most merchandise, respond to market forces. If
>Manga-style art is becoming more and more prevalent, that's probably
>because there's a very real market incentive for it. You might not like
>it, but there it is.

As I've already said... If enough people support Lau, then he will
be brought back. The reason Matsuda, Cruz (whose pre-manga style
in Uncanny #320 was stunning), and others have jobs on the X-Book's
is because the editor's believe they (and their style) help sell comics.
Also as I've said already, I don't expect my opinion to be gospel that
everyone must agree with... Obviously some people like manga or the
above mentioned wouldn't have jobs right now.

That doesn't, however, mean that I have to like it... Or that by
definition
just because it might have high sales it is great art.

>> Again... You are stating the obvious. drh just got a little testy and

>>wanted (as per usual) to make mountains out of mole-hills. He follows
>>a farely common standard of arguments of building up his own by creating
>>or imaging his (in his mind) opponents.

>No, I got the impression that drh was responding negatively to your
>trademark over-the-top: expressions of your opinions as the TRVTH;

Hey, that's your interpretation. If anyone else is angered at what I'm

writing it's because they feel that I'm insulting or dismissing an art
form
that they like... Not that I am somehow holding my opinion as law. Of
course I will value and regard my opinion over other people's, though...
I have a suspicion most everyone (gasp -- including you) does as well.

>demonstrations of bigotry,

Whoa now. You're stepping into Mclean territory here. Nowhere did
I express racist attitudes by attributing the origination of an art form
correctly to its source. At least try to give the appearance that you
aren't hammering the keyboard in anger as you write your posts.

I could care less if manga were drawn by Richie Cunningham, I would
still hate it. Conversly... I practicly worship Jim Lee and he isn't
caucasion
last time I checked.

Watch yourself there.

>intolerance

No. Expressing distaste for an art form isn't intolerance... It's not
liking an art form for its perceived lack of artistsic qualities.

>and your foolish willingness to trumpet your ignorance by popping off
>when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I see what I see. I read what I read. Are you going to tell me
differently?
A conflicting opinion does not equal ignorance.

>Like when you were railing on Larry Hama's Wolverine stuff without having

>read the pertinent issues.

Oh, Hohn... Now how does this have to do with manga? You want to
display your fragile little ego and six month old ball of hatred and
relive
dead and buried arguments again? Inferiority complexes die hard, huh?

Do you want me to tell you again that I've read Hama's complete run...

Or do you want implications that your a liar?

Could you possibly portray yourseIf as more pathetic or lifeless
than by bringing up on-line arguments from six months ago? I thought
you grew up.

>Maybe if you'd think a little bit more before you post, you wouldn't
catch
>so much flak.

Aside from drh post and yours, I don't really see this as catching
any flak. Some people are angered by my strongly felt opinion because
it conflicts with their own and they're letting me know. As long as it
doesn't
turn personal (which are staples of you and drh posts) I'll keep on
listening
to what they have to say. I'm freely open to the idea that I just "don't
get"
manga if someone can convince me of its merits.

I have spent months delving through (hundreds) of submissions,
critiquing, corresponding with, and encouraging potential artists in a
professional capacity. I see art develop first hand from the layout
inception
day to its' eventual computer coloring and I have free access to an
unlimited
amount of comics mainstream, underground, and stuff kids make in their
garage (and enough manga to match most people's collection)... So yes, I
value my opinion of comic art and do in fact believe that I have an
inkling
of what I'm writing about... And that includes manga.

>And before you start off on your "poor oppressed Aaron"
>bit, it's not just drh and me.

Hey, guy, all I know is that I see not sight nor sound of
either of you until I make a boo boo and say something you two
find offensive. If you guys find me worth delurking and
talking about (or will we be discussing manga, anymore?).... that
doesn't leave me feeling oppressed... Just rather flattered.

Aaron

[Hohn Cho]

Amazing that after all this time, you _still_ haven't figured out how to
format your posts correctly. It ain't rocket science, Aaron.

In article <19961211051...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:

>everyone must agree with... Obviously some people like manga or the
>above mentioned wouldn't have jobs right now.
> That doesn't, however, mean that I have to like it... Or that by
>definition just because it might have high sales it is great art.

No one says or has said you have to like it.

>>demonstrations of bigotry,
>
> Whoa now. You're stepping into Mclean territory here. Nowhere did
>I express racist attitudes by attributing the origination of an art form
>correctly to its source. At least try to give the appearance that you
>aren't hammering the keyboard in anger as you write your posts.

Yo Aaron. You're demonstrating your ignorance yet again.

"bigotry: obstinate and unreasoning attachment to one's own beliefs and
opinions with intolerance of beliefs opposed to them."

>>intolerance
>
> No. Expressing distaste for an art form isn't intolerance... It's not
>liking an art form for its perceived lack of artistsic qualities.

Your previously quoted material that I listed in my last post amply
demonstrates intolerance, at least to me.

>>and your foolish willingness to trumpet your ignorance by popping off
>>when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
>
> I see what I see. I read what I read. Are you going to tell me
>differently?
>A conflicting opinion does not equal ignorance.

The fact that you express a conflicting opinion indeed does not
necessarily mean that you are ignorant. Nor is that what I said.

What I said was that when you talk about stuff that you're ignorant of and
yet act like you know everything about it (and several posts have called
you out on the manga issue and pointed out just how ignorant you are), you
look silly and foolish.

>>Like when you were railing on Larry Hama's Wolverine stuff without having
>>read the pertinent issues.
>
> Oh, Hohn... Now how does this have to do with manga?

Manga? Nothing. It goes to credibility, character and past patterns of
behavior. These are important things. Or didn't you know? Are you
_sure_ you're going to law school?

> You want to
>display your fragile little ego and six month old ball of hatred and
>relive
>dead and buried arguments again? Inferiority complexes die hard, huh?

I neither hate you nor do I feel inferior to you. I don't care about you
enough to hate you, and you're simply not intelligent enough for me to
feel inferior to you.

> Do you want me to tell you again that I've read Hama's complete run...

Now? Maybe. Back during the relevant time frame, you hadn't. Not all of
it, at least.

>Or do you want implications that your a liar?

???

What in the world are you talking about here?

You'd made a bunch of typically over-the-top statements about Hama and
Wolverine. People (I want to say Charlie or Paul, but I'm not certain)
called you on it. In response at the time, you said you hadn't read
certain very relevant and pertinent issues. Go ahead and call me a liar;
I remember what I read, and I know some others here must as well.

> Could you possibly portray yourseIf as more pathetic or lifeless
>than by bringing up on-line arguments from six months ago? I thought
>you grew up.

<shrug>

I'm not the one who trolls for dates on USENET, Aaron. And once again,
I'd bet large sums of money that my quality of life is significantly
better than yours.

> Hey, guy, all I know is that I see not sight nor sound of
>either of you until I make a boo boo and say something you two
>find offensive. If you guys find me worth delurking and
>talking about (or will we be discussing manga, anymore?).... that
>doesn't leave me feeling oppressed... Just rather flattered.

<snicker>

Yes, I knew you'd pull this card too, having seen you use it on drh.

No Aaron, I didn't delurk just for li'l ole you. I've been extremely busy
for the past few months, but I'd found a little free net time lately, and
after reading UXM #341 last week, I delurked again because I enjoyed it
enough to want to read posts and comment about it. So I started reading
the group again. And then a few days later I saw your latest idiocy, and
for kicks I decided to comment upon _that_. It's very simple, really.

It doesn't surprise me that you're flattered, though. It doesn't surprise
me at all.

[Kingbob the massive]

In article <19961211050...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com says...

>>Aaron:

> Aaron

I see that the phrase deXness used was offencive and I'm not
defending that. I would just like to put in that manga is a very diverse
medium. There are parallels to mainstream comics art that although they
are termed into one category there are alot more sub genres inside. I'm
not defending Kevin's art because I thought it was totaly inappropriate
for this particular comic and dident even buy it.
You commented that in your opinion Dark Phoenix Saga wouldn't
have been as classic as it had been but I would have to disagree. If an
artist such as Joe Maduria had been drawing it it would of been as much
if not more, a classic as is is today. Are you saying that a person
trained by such a diverse medium such as Manga and Anime would have less
emotion than one influenced by Liefeld? Paul Smith and Art Adams are two
of the most respected artists on the X-Men and both give off a cartoony
look.
All Marvel is trying to do is make the most money as they can in
theshortest amount of time. Until Manga influenced artists are on the
down side of this trend they will try to profit off of us. Unless theres
a boycot as in Spider Man were stuck with them.
Kingbob

[Lord of deXness]

In article <19961211050...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:
> Subject: Re: Lau's art in X-Force 61
>
> djp...@fas.harvard.edu (Lord of deXness) wrote:
>
>>Aaron:
>
>>Do you realize that statements like this one make you sound like an
>>uninformed idiot?
>
> Uhhh... Do you realize that statements like this destroy the
>possibility
>of me listening or taking seriously anything you have to say?

Do you realize that something in your presentation prompted me to respond
in this manner? Essentially, you made a bunch of ranting blanket
statements which are completely wrong. You also don't seem to be willing
to listen to people when they try to correct you. So, frankly, why should
I waste my time with you?

>Now do you
>want me to personally insult you or do you want to try again?
>

Your skin is very thin if you are personally insulted when someone tells
you when you come across in a negative manner. As I said, look at the
characters from Fist of the North Star or Ninja Scroll and honestly think
about what you said about all manga/anime art being Garfield-like.

But, for some reason, I don't think you will.

deX!

[Vermilion]

In article (Hohn Cho) writes:

<EVERYTHING snipped!>

It isn't going to matter, Hohn. You'd probably have better luck ordering
the tides to stop than get Aaron to see something from your point of view.
Me, I've given up arguing with the ol' boy. Hell, he calls me
"anal-retentive" because I don't like comics plotted the same way he does.
Actually, I'm one froody, laid-back dude ;)
Anywho, y'all would do well to give this up and try and convert the Pope
to Buddhism. Manga discussion is probably futile at this point (not that I
won't try...) You might get some terrific arguments, but I think the window
of opportunity for progressive debate has been nailed shut. Of course,
arguments are lotsa fun...

- Vermilion, posting less and less these days. I've lost the love, it
seems...

[Swpwarrior]

Hon Cho wrote:

>In article <19961211051...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<swpwa...@aol.com> wrote:

>>>and your foolish willingness to trumpet your ignorance by popping off
>>>when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
>
>> I see what I see. I read what I read. Are you going to tell me
>>differently? A conflicting opinion does not equal ignorance.

>The fact that you express a conflicting opinion indeed does not
>necessarily mean that you are ignorant. Nor is that what I said.

>What I said was that when you talk about stuff that you're ignorant of
and
>yet act like you know everything about it (and several posts have called
>you out on the manga issue and pointed out just how ignorant you are),
you
>look silly and foolish.

Some other people's posts have pointed out to me that there are
different and additional aspects to manga than I have focused on. Not
once has someone said that what I have attributed to manga has been
incorrect. Manga is the source and origination for the current artistic
influence of grossly disproportionate anatomies that have the tendency
to make the characters appear child-like and deformed. This artistic
style is prevelent in manga.

If all of the above is true, then what ignorance are you talking
about?

>>>Like when you were railing on Larry Hama's Wolverine stuff without
having
>>>read the pertinent issues.
>
>> Oh, Hohn... Now how does this have to do with manga?

>Manga? Nothing. It goes to credibility, character and past patterns of
>behavior. These are important things. Or didn't you know? Are you
>_sure_ you're going to law school?

Right about now, I wish I wasn't (Finals are killing me). And Hohn....

I'm going to get credibility lessons from someone who still clings
desperately to a false account of a misunderstood exchange from SIX
months ago or claims to have a better life than me (more later)?
Please.

>> You want to display your fragile little ego and six month old ball of
>> hatred and relive dead and buried arguments again? Inferiority
>> complexes die hard, huh?

> I neither hate you nor do I feel inferior to you. I don't care about
you
> enough to hate you, and you're simply not intelligent enough for me to
> feel inferior to you.

I would disagree. The type of viciousness you write with comes
from either sexual frustration (very likely, I'll concede) or from
personal
animosity. Considering this is the THIRD time you've come at me with
your angry little flames and feel compelled in each instance to not direct

your post to the matter at hand (You wrote two small comments about
manga and filled the remainder of your large post with personal attacks
on me) but rather at my character, then yes I believe you've got some
hatred flowing. Otherwise why wouldn't you have simply shrugged your
shoulders and moved on to the next post instead of taking the time to
cut and paste a montage of my quotes?

And intelligence, Hohn? How much intelligence does it take to post
a flame? Some here have at least responded to this thread by touting
the merits and diversity of manga. That's intelligent. That's something
that might cause me to give it a second look. Your post doesn't have
the effect of anything other than turning this thread into a personally
driven flam war between the two of us. I'd rather not do that.

>> Do you want me to tell you again that I've read Hama's complete
run...

>Now? Maybe. Back during the relevant time frame, you hadn't. Not all
of
>it, at least.

Not true. Does that make you a liar?

>>Or do you want implications that your a liar?

>???

>What in the world are you talking about here?

Look above.

>You'd made a bunch of typically over-the-top statements about Hama and
>Wolverine. People (I want to say Charlie or Paul, but I'm not certain)
>called you on it. In response at the time, you said you hadn't read
>certain very relevant and pertinent issues. Go ahead and call me a liar;
>I remember what I read, and I know some others here must as well.

Am I supposed to be laughing? I'm not that self-important to believe
other people remember the content of my posts for months on end.
Although apparently you believe you do. No, you couldn't care less.
Maybe you truly recall incorrectly, but either way 1.) you're wrong and
2.)
it's irrelevent to what we're supposed to be discussing.

Unless we are talking about character? In which case I guess it is
pertinent to you and yours.

>> Could you possibly portray yourseIf as more pathetic or lifeless
>>than by bringing up on-line arguments from six months ago? I thought
>>you grew up.

><shrug>

>I'm not the one who trolls for dates on USENET, Aaron.

(Snaps) And I almost got Brucha, too! Please, Hohn can't you
for once see past the obvious and recognize tounge-in-cheek humor
when you see it? I would never feign to pretend anyone on USENET
would date me.

>And once again, I'd bet large sums of money that my quality of life
>is significantly better than yours.

Yep, manga. Ya gotta love it. Hohn, how do you expect me to
take you seriously? First Hohn... What do you know about me personally
other than I'm in law school (oh, and I think I told you once that I was
on
the swim team in high school)? Now that's a big clue, if ever I've seen
it.
What do I know about you personally, other than... well nothing. I know
nothing about you outside of your participation on RACX. Now whose
being ignorant and spouting off without knowing what the hell their
talking about?

How you can extrapolate from that to overall quality of life... and
further which one is "better" than the other? That's a theory even
drh would have to laugh at. This has no bearing on anything. Anything.
All it shows is again an obvious inferiority complex that you feel
compelled to compare your life to anothers in any contex (especially
in a forum such as USENET where it's impossible) and an obvious
insecurity with your own.

So how about you walk on that tightrope a little more and tell
everyone what you feel is the criterea for which has the better quality
of life and hw much you'd wager? Earning potential? Looks? Social
life? Family? Car? Love? What _is_ quality of life? (now this could get
deep).

Hohn, I'm sorry... but this has to be about the most idiotic
thing anyone has ever written to me.

>> Hey, guy, all I know is that I see not sight nor sound of
>>either of you until I make a boo boo and say something you two
>>find offensive. If you guys find me worth delurking and
>>talking about (or will we be discussing manga, anymore?).... that
>>doesn't leave me feeling oppressed... Just rather flattered.

>No Aaron, I didn't delurk just for li'l ole you. I've been extremely
busy
>for the past few months, but I'd found a little free net time lately, and
>after reading UXM #341 last week, I delurked again because I enjoyed it
>enough to want to read posts and comment about it. So I started reading
>the group again.

My mistake, then. I missed your posts and didn't know you were
back (Can you tell how overjoyed I am?). It was a great issue (though
I thought that carriage driver's speech was a little too sanctimonious).
I'd
love to own that first penciled page.

Now do you want to continue to go round and round or is it enough?
I know it is possible to have reasonable conversations with you (you
actually started to grow on me with all that BOPSM stuff), so if you'd
like to dicuss manga or other X-stuff... let's. If you want to flame in
a personal manner... Let's nip this in the bud now and you can e-mail
me.

Aaron

\

[Vermilion]

In article swpwa...@aol.com writes:

> Snowlock wrote:
>>David R. Henry wrote:
>>> Swp writes:

Hmmmm... That's the order o' the attributions. I'll try and get who said
what right in the following snips. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Have restrained myself from engrossing myself in this thread... Am
weak... Shall now reply...

I find it kinda funny most everyone trying to pigeonhole manga. It just
don't work that way - Japanese comics do not suffer from the near universal
homogeneity of American comics. Mebbe you gotta like 'em to appreciate the
diversity. Anyway...

>>>> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
>>
>>> Thereby showing Swp's obviously painfully uniformed viewpoint
>>> on manga.

>>Please, then, dave, enlighten... What am I, or any of us that dislike
>>the manga-influenced stuff missing?

> I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What is

>the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
>artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!

Nothing Freudian about this, methinks. It's just different, you know?

Firstly, parody drawing is a bit inaccurate. Parodies, by their nature,
are intended to be something of a joke, to poke fun at one thing or another,
hence Mad Magazine's parody of this movie or that show, etc. Manga artists
aren't attempting that - it's simply a different way of visual expression.
Lord, that sounds cheesy. Okay, like you mention later about Monet, you
wouldn't care for impressionist artwork appearing in Uncanny X-Men. But,
in spite of Monet's intentional distortion of reality, I would hardly call his
work a parody, either. Personally, I can't stand the majority of Picasso's
work, but parody? Especially with pieces like the Birdcage, could you call
him a parodic artist?
Sergio Aragones does parody drawing. Van Gogh's Night Cafe is not
parodic. Yet, I'd bet Aragones could turn out a more realistic Groo than some
of Van Gogh's work...
Manga artwork is often just an exaggeration of reality, calling some
things to the fore and leaving others in the background. It capitalizes on
certain elements to enhance the telling of a story, elements that don't get as
much attention in American comics, perhaps. Assuming all manga to be parodic,
big-eyed, cartoon bodied art is, well, wrong. I keep advising everyone that
asks to look at Hiroaki Samura's work (Blade of the Immortal, now via Dark
Horse). His art is more realistic, in all respects, than any American comic
book artist out there now. His people have real proportions, not Jim Lee
proportions. They have real detail, not Todd MacFarlane gazillion microscopic
lines detail. His anatomy is almost perfect, including, yes, normal sized
eyes. But I don't think anyone would care to argue that his artwork isn't
manga.
Me, if it tells the story well, I generally like it. I didn't piss and
moan through the Lion King because the characters didn't look like real
animals. I didn't get worked up that Pocahontas looked more like a Colorform
piece than a real woman. Still a pretty good movie. It was exagerrated and a
bit cartoony (whoa! cartoony cartoons!), but I don't think it was parodic -
just a pretty decent movie.

>>>>Similarly,
>>>>manga artists might work for such "adorable" stuff like "Gon"
>>>>or the latest Gamera adaptation, but it has no place in a
>>>>mainstream comic.
>>
>>> Japan arguably has the largest comic book market in the world
>>> today, Swp. We're the scruffy indies here, and they're the
>>> mainstream.

>>Oh come on, Dave. Manga is based ENTIRELY on concepts

>>developed by the US medium originally. Maybe they traded back
>>and forth since, but every premise I've ever read or heard about
>>concerning manga has been done before in either a US comic book
>>or British literary market.

Huh. And you know what? Henry Ford, an American, invented the
automobile, or so I'm told. Who's king othe hill now, world-wide? Things
change, or so I'm told.
On a side note, samurai manga is quite prevalent in Japan. Who'd they rip
that off of, Snowlock?

> And when I start seeing pure manga comics from overseas or the US
>start to dominate the top 100 sales charts, then I'll conceded the comic
>book market to Japan. Right now? You've got to be kidding me. All that
>tells me is that my theory that the Japanese and American comic book
>markets are inherently different is that much more accurate.

Sure. No problem. You work out a way to get all that manga translated
and get it distributed on equal footing with the comic shop/supermarket/
suscription blanket distribution of the Uncanny X-Men. Some will pop up in
yer Top 100 pretty quickly, I'd imagine. A few nationwide cartoons or
successful feature films might also help your sales - things manga doesn't get
here, but has in Japan by the truckload.

>>Admittedly, I'm no manga junkie, so I missed a bit of it, but I've read
>>most of the major works (Akira, GITS, etc) and found it wanting.

I absolutely cannot believe you've read Ghost in the Shell and expect
something more. It's more complex and intricate than any compilation of
American comics I've ever read, and I'll include Watchmen in that. Depth of
detail? Shirow describes his character's Seburo high-velocty 5mm handgun with
alarming detail. I like that better than the generic, Liefeld-esque
handcannons that change from page to page. The characters aren't motivated to
heroism and self sacrifice by some noble sense of heroism. Actually, they're
paid to do it, or they're generally getting something in return. Kinda like
real life (Heroes are nice and all, but not very real). I like real people.
I don't like Scott Summers. That's why I DO like ALex Summers - hell, I
wouldn't want any part of that gettin' shot at hero crap either. There's
actually some sort of underlying theme to the work (the creation of life, the
demarcations of soul, so on and so forth). What the hell was Onslaught? A
marketing gimmick. And the crux of the story of GitS isn't revealed on the
first page of the first chapter or the first issue. In fact, the first 4
issues alone are designed just to establish who the characters are and what
they do. It gives them some history before we run them off to do whatever
main thing it is they do in their book. God knows I'm tired of issue #1 of
whatever thrusting some hapless Joe into cataclysmic confrontation with his
now arch-nemesis. The X-men just _had_ to start out against Magneto, didn't
they? No warm ups, no feeling out the hero biz - wham! right up against the
greatest of mutant menaces. It always goes like that, it seems. I hate that.
I like GitS because the Puppetmaster isn't even mentioned through the first
half of the book. Yeah, Major Kusanagi has big eyes. I can deal with that
for the depth of the story. At least it didn't put me to sleep like the
aforementioned Onslaught or the Magneto series, or the Loeb disaster with
X-Force.
Yes, these are story elements, not artistic ones. Masamune
Shirow both wrote and drew GitS. Katsuhiro Otomo worked both sides of Akira.
Samura does all of Blade of the Immortal. And Frank Miller did Dark Knight
himself. I consider the entire process inextricably linked. GitS written by
someone else or drawn by someone else would not have had the same impact as a
single creative effort. Lotsa manga artists are also manga writers. Wonder
what that means...

> There is tons of this stuff lying around the studio (underground and
>popular works alike)... I can't, can't, can't see the quality in it. That
>doesn't mean others can't or it by definition sucks... It just means
>I do not consider it true comic book art and believe it is ruining
>the medium (mainstream comics) that I love. Simple.

I think the pseudo-manga we get in American books sucks. Lotsa guys doing
it don't quite 'get it' I think. They are imitating it, but I'm not sure they
are understanding it. Big eyes and small noses and speedlines don't get the
importance of manga. They're the effects, not the cause. I really don't
think Lau-Force is real impressive, I think it's more clonework by a guy that
wanted into comics. You had yer Neal Adams' clones, yer Image clones
(particularly the evil Liefeld clones), and now yer manga clones. *sigh*
They should all be forced to work on Spiderman.

- Vermilion, who likes _good_ manga. Just like I like _good_ comics. I'm
just funny that way.

[Swpwarrior]

kst...@aloha.net (Kingbob the massive) wrote:

> In article <19961211050...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

> swpwa...@aol.com says...

>>> djp...@fas.harvard.edu (Lord of deXness) wrote:

>>Aaron:

>>>Do you realize that statements like this one make you sound like an
>>>uninformed idiot?

>> Uhhh... Do you realize that statements like this destroy the
>> possibility of me listening or taking seriously anything you have

>> to say? Now do you want me to personally insult you or do you
>> want to try again?

> I see that the phrase deXness used was offencive and I'm not
> defending that. I would just like to put in that manga is a very diverse

> medium. There are parallels to mainstream comics art that although they
> are termed into one category there are alot more sub genres inside.

But the term to describe Lau's art (and that artistic style) is
still manga.

> I'm not defending Kevin's art because I thought it was totaly
inappropriate
> for this particular comic and dident even buy it.

Which is what I've been complaining about all along.

> You commented that in your opinion Dark Phoenix Saga wouldn't
> have been as classic as it had been but I would have to disagree. If an
> artist such as Joe Maduria had been drawing it it would of been as much
> if not more, a classic as is is today. Are you saying that a person
> trained by such a diverse medium such as Manga and Anime would have less

> emotion than one influenced by Liefeld? Paul Smith and Art Adams are two

> of the most respected artists on the X-Men and both give off a cartoony
> look.

That was probably an unfair comparison to make since it is in
hindsight and its often hard to pinpoint what exactly makes a story
lasting or great (let alone try and transfer that aspect and replace it
with something else)... But I still stand by my assesment that had Lau
or Ramos (or another overtly manga artist) drawn it, the impact would
have been lost on me and others.

I think this all goes to the heart of the matter of my displeasure
with manga. I find it difficult to see the characters on the page as
conveying actual emotions or participating in a mainstream superhero
story. Rather they come off as caricatures and the story itself something
corny and cartoony (I particularly had this reaction to his depiction
of Nga and Leong). This destroys not only the artistic value I look
for in a comic, but even more importantly, the story itself.

I don't feel it's possible to tell a serious story of a mainstream
superhero title within this art form. Other's will obviously disagree
(and have demonstrated with their wallets).

> All Marvel is trying to do is make the most money as they can in
> the shortest amount of time.

That's true (and I have made statments to the same effect), but
that doesn't mean that's the _only_ way to drive sales.

> Until Manga influenced artists are on the down side of this trend they
> will try to profit off of us.

And I don't blame them for it. Marvel is a business. Manga is popular
now and they obviously believe that by mixing their comics with that
art form they will drive up sales. Whether or not I believe manga-inspired
art-work is a trend in American comics (which I do), it is obviously
popular and far-reaching here in the States _right now_ exemplified
by how many titles have manga-inspired artists. None of that woud
be true unless many people enjoyed it. No matter how strongly I have
expressed my opinion or disbelieving that people could actually
disagree with it, I have never maintained I was in the majority
opinion.

I could have written the same type of posts about Steve Epting
or Bill Sinkowicz (sp as usual) or Mark Texeira. Some poeple
truly enjoy their art work, yet for the life of me I can't see how.

> Unless theres a boycot as in Spider Man were stuck with them.

I don't think it will take a boycot. It's simply a matter of time
before
artists look for other influences and/or the current and future comic
consumer taste's go elsewhere. Five years ago everyone was trying
to draw like Jim Lee. Now Jim Lee is trying to draw manga. Five years
from now, ther will be something else.

Now does this have anything to do with the manga industry in
Japan? Nope. It will continue and grow because manga IS Japanese
comics. A trend in the US is the basis of a comic book industry
overseas (it IS the comic book industry in Japan). If anyone saw my
statements as applying to them, then that was misinterpreted.

All along I have maintained one thing only. I don't like the manga
influence in mainstream American super hero comics (of which I
consider the X-Men) and believe it is inappropriate to match such a
drastic departure in style to what is supposed to be a traditional comic
book. Deal with it or don't. The world won't come to an end.

Aaron

[west...@aol.com]

You know what I hate Aaron? I hate those American comics. They are nothing
more than half naked big breasted women, super muscular men, big guns, and
no story. Not once have i ever seen an American comic that held my intrest
because they are all like this. For proof, let me present Rob Liefeld. His
plots are so thin. And so, based on this, I can assume that all American
comics are the same. God I hate them.

[David R. Henry]

Hohn Cho writes:

>> Again... You are stating the obvious. drh just got a little testy and
>>wanted (as per usual) to make mountains out of mole-hills. He follows
>>a farely common standard of arguments of building up his own by creating
>>or imaging his (in his mind) opponents.
>

>No, I got the impression that drh was responding negatively to your
>trademark over-the-top: expressions of your opinions as the TRVTH;

>demonstrations of bigotry, intolerance and unwarranted condescension; and

>your foolish willingness to trumpet your ignorance by popping off when you
>don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Damn shucks it all, Hohn's done figgered me out. Sly fella.

And, Swippy? I don't have to build mountains out of molehills when you
do all the work for me. :)

--

dhe...@plains.nodak.edu Old Endgame, Lost of Old
Play and Lose and have Done with Losing

[Paul O'Brien]

Snowlock <ba...@northernnet.com> writes:

>Just because Swp doesn't like a particular style of art means he's a
>racist believing in apartied?

No, he's just equally wrong. (Factually, not morally.)

His argument seems to be that the X-books should never be
drawn in that style because they should _always_ be drawn in a
traditionally American style. This, with all due respect,
is total rubbish. Was the Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown
mini-series unacceptable because it was in watercolours? Was
Bill Sienkiewicz's run on New Mutants indefensible because it
was innovative? Of course not.

It's one thing not to find manga to your taste. That's fine.
But it's not consistent to blast it purely for not being
"realistic" and at the same time to approve of American artists
who are equally exaggerated but in different ways.

The manga style is valid in some circumstances. (Or rather, it
is valid generally, and it is the best choice in some circumstances.)
It isn't always the best approach. It isn't always done well by
the artists who do it. And because of western culture, it does
tend to make all the female characters look excessively cute, which
is something that artists should approach carefully when dealing
with a western audience. But it is not an inherently bad style of
art.

Those who just don't like manga, I have no problems with. Those
who think it is objectively wrong need to broaden their horizons.

Paul O'Brien
The Onslaught Index - http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~prob/index/

It's officially summer.

[Tim Elf]

Peace, people!

Hohn, Aaron, drh....

I really enjoy the posts that all three of you write, for the most part.
But this thread has gotten totally out of hand!

Come on, guys! You all have relevant opinions on this topic, but can't we
discuss them without the personal attacks? Perhaps a format such as "I
like/don't like manga and here's why:" would work?

Whatever you decide to do, don't let this turn any of you off from posting
on RACMX. The rest of us would miss your input.

-Tim, who finds it ironic that both Hohn & Aaron have written/are writing
Onslaught fan-fics that are both pretty good

[Hohn Cho]

WARNING: Contentious sniping below. If you prefer not to read such
things, you should skip this article.

In article <19961211214...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
"Swpwarrior" <swpwa...@aol.com> continued to blather:

>incorrect. Manga is the source and origination for the current artistic
>influence of grossly disproportionate anatomies that have the tendency
>to make the characters appear child-like and deformed. This artistic
>style is prevelent in manga.

Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.

You're wording it much more reasonably _now_. I have no real quarrel with
what you say above. Of course, it's not the same thing that you said
before. Retcon much?

> If all of the above is true, then what ignorance are you talking
>about?

See the quotes I posted in my first response in this thread. Oh, what the
heck, I'll repost them here since they're already in a file, they're so
enlightening, and you haven't once been able to defend them:

---

> Manga is not comic book art. It's manga. And it takes away
>from the believablity and seriousness of a comic and turns it into
>embarrasingly immature bubble-gum fare.

[...]

> No. You can discuss it all you want. I'm just stunned that anyone
>would. It is afterall... m~a~n~g~a.

[...]

> And no matter how bad Liefeld is, he's still a comic book artist,
>unlike manga artists.

[...]

> And its short lived life span will hopefully be coming to an end like
>all trends and novelties. Someday when you hit puberty and discover
>girls, believe me... you'll be hiding your manga under your bed.

[...]

>>whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>>1. "Manga" style art is not defined by the way characters are drawn.
>>Many popular Japanese artists draw their characters with small eyes
>>and proportional bodies (Hojo Tsukasa, for example).
>
> That's a lesson for me. But if manga is not the art style... then
>what is it?

---

Why don't you just suck it up and admit that you overstated? I'll bet
people would respect and accept that a lot more than the misdirection
you've attempted thus far.

> I would disagree. The type of viciousness you write with

I fully concede that I express myself strongly. What can I say, I'm a
litigator.

> comes
>from either sexual frustration (very likely, I'll concede)

<snicker>

Think what you want, Dr. Freud.

> or from
>personal
>animosity. Considering this is the THIRD time you've come at me

Don't be so surprised. I often challenge people who I think are saying
silly, stupid or baseless things, without regard to who says it. I think
quite a few people can vouch for that.

> with
>your angry little flames

Do you even know what a flame is? I'm not sure that you do. In the past,
I've had a good deal of blunt disagreement with you. But very few flames,
and even less (if any) anger. Scorn and derision, yes. Anger, no.

> and feel compelled in each instance to not direct
>your post to the matter at hand

In each case, I addressed specific points that you had raised. If your
points were _already_ off-topic to begin with, then of course it is
unsurprising that my own were as well.

> (You wrote two small comments about
>manga and filled the remainder of your large post with personal attacks
>on me) but rather at my character, then yes I believe you've got some
>hatred flowing.

"Waah. He hates me, he hates me! Waah!"

Again, think what you want. I don't know you from Adam. I also don't
think you know what the definition of "hatred" is. It's true, I do have a
generally low opinion of you, but I hardly hate you. There's a big
difference, although I fully reaize that it may be beyond your
intellectual capabilities to be able to discern that difference.

> Otherwise why wouldn't you have simply shrugged your
>shoulders and moved on to the next post instead of taking the time to
>cut and paste a montage of my quotes?

Why does anyone post anything here on USENET? Because it provides them
some level of enjoyment or amusement or satisfaction. I responded to you
because I felt like it. And the collection of quotes (IIRC, all but one
of which came from a single post) took very little time indeed, since the
articles were still on my newsfeed.

> And intelligence, Hohn? How much intelligence does it take to post
>a flame? Some here have at least responded to this thread by touting
>the merits and diversity of manga. That's intelligent. That's something
>that might cause me to give it a second look. Your post doesn't have
>the effect of anything other than turning this thread into a personally
>driven flam war between the two of us. I'd rather not do that.

Nice try with the "moral high ground" bit. Too bad you have no foundation
for it.

I find it amusing that you once again attempt to portray yourself as the
innocent victim when it was your own claims, put-downs and typically
outrageous overstatements that prompted most of the responses on this
entire thread. You've also done your best (which isn't saying much,
granted) to try to attack me, which also neatly disposes of your "poor,
innocent me" act. And before you make the kneejerk reaction of trying to
turn things around on me, you'll note that I am not taking an attitude
that I'm innocent or on the moral high ground here.

Anyway, it's all a diversion. I can gauge your intelligence perfectly
well based on factors I see here. Whether it's your making of unwarranted
assumptions, your atrocious logical reasoning skills, your exaggerations,
or even your misspellings, poor formatting, and improper diction and
grammar, it's all indicative. And it's not very favorable to you.

>>And once again, I'd bet large sums of money that my quality of life
>>is significantly better than yours.
>
> Yep, manga. Ya gotta love it. Hohn, how do you expect me to
>take you seriously?

<shrug>

Whether you take me seriously or not is up to you. Of course, I didn't
expect you to take me _literally_ in this context...

> First Hohn... What do you know about me personally
>other than I'm in law school (oh, and I think I told you once that I was
>on
>the swim team in high school)? Now that's a big clue, if ever I've seen
>it.
>What do I know about you personally, other than... well nothing. I know
>nothing about you outside of your participation on RACX. Now whose
>being ignorant and spouting off without knowing what the hell their
>talking about?

You really don't get it, do you? You challenge that I am pathetic and
lifeless. Meanwhile, _I_ know about _my_ life, and I am smugly satisfied
enough with it and have achieved sufficient, relatively objective indicia
of success to know that theoretically, the odds are good. I don't _need_
to know about your specifics to make a _guess_, based solely on what
little I do know of you and the great deal I know about myself.

> So how about you walk on that tightrope a little more and tell
>everyone what you feel is the criterea for which has the better quality
>of life and hw much you'd wager? Earning potential? Looks? Social
>life? Family? Car? Love? What _is_ quality of life? (now this could get
>deep).

Good Christ, I'm not _actually_ proposing to, say, set up a committee or
something equally absurd which would formulate criteria and questions,
evaluate applications, and declare a "winner." It was a qualitative,
general comment. Sheesh.

But if you want to see insecurity, look in a mirror. Whether it's your
self-congratulatory boasts or your hiding behind a pseudonym instead of
having the guts to attach your real name to your posts and your fiction,
whether it's your inability to deal with criticism or your intellectual
dishonesty and exaggeration, it all says the same thing.

> Now do you want to continue to go round and round or is it enough?
>I know it is possible to have reasonable conversations with you (you
>actually started to grow on me with all that BOPSM stuff), so if you'd
>like to dicuss manga or other X-stuff... let's. If you want to flame in
>a personal manner... Let's nip this in the bud now and you can e-mail
>me.

Hey, I tried to move this to alt.flame. You chose to place it back here
in RACMX. Your position in the above paragraph is therefore inconsistent
and untenable. Besides, I have no problem with people reading what I have
to say to you and about you, and I'm more than willing to accept whatever
consequences that may accrue to me as a result.

Anyway, it's basically a moot point now since this will be my last post on
the subject; a much anticipated vacation calls. So go ahead, make all the
cheap shots and distortions that you want, Aaron. Since this is the only
way you'll ever be able to do those things in an argument with me without
getting spanked for it, you should savor the opportunity.

Hugs and Kisses,

[Swpwarrior]

west...@aol.com wrote:

>You know what I hate Aaron?

What?

> I hate those American comics. They are nothing more than half naked
> big breasted women, super muscular men, big guns, and no story. Not
> once have i ever seen an American comic that held my intrest because
> they are all like this. For proof, let me present Rob Liefeld. His plots
are
> so thin. And so, based on this, I can assume that all American comics
> are the same. God I hate them.

You know what? Although I disagree with you, I'm secure enough
in my appreciation of American comics that I don't need anyone's
validation of my taste. I'm not goin to write post after post trying to
convince you that because there is diveristy in American comics,
this somehow makes up for, redeems, or justifies, it's obvious
excesses and faults. I'm going to say you are missing out and leave
it at that. You hate 'em? That's fine with me.

Aaron (Yes, I know you were trying to be sarcastic. I wasn't.)

[Swpwarrior]

Paul O'Brien wrote:

>Snowlock <ba...@northernnet.com> writes:

>>Just because Swp doesn't like a particular style of art means he's a
>>racist believing in apartied?

>No, he's just equally wrong. (Factually, not morally.)

Good thing you put up that little disclaimer. Even on RACX it
would be hard to equate not liking manga with aparteid. Although...

>His argument seems to be that the X-books should never be
>drawn in that style because they should _always_ be drawn in a
>traditionally American style.

I don't think that the "traditional" comic book style is necessarily
American. Byrne is Canadian. Pacheco is Spanish (as is Larrocca
I believe). Gibbons is English. How about Barry Windsor-Smith? Ian
Churchill?

> This, with all due respect, is total rubbish.

Yeah, but look who _you're_ putting up as examples.

> Was the Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown mini-series unacceptable
> because it was in watercolours?

Yes. But not because it was in water colors. It was garish. Painted
art 9 times out of ten doesn't work (did anyone see "Code of Honor" this
week?). Alex Ross is an exception.

> Was Bill Sienkiewicz's run on New Mutants indefensible because
> it was innovative? Of course not.

Innovative? He is perhaps my single least favorite comic artist (right
up there with Mark Texiera or Jae Lee). I could go on a tirade about
this guy too....

> It's one thing not to find manga to your taste. That's fine. But it's
not
> consistent to blast it purely for not being "realistic" and at the same
time
> to approve of American artists who are equally exaggerated but in
different
> ways.

What are you talking about? I don't care if the artist is from
Timbuktoo
if he can draw well. And as I said with my Richie Cunningham example,
I don't care if the artist is as American as apple pie, if he draws poorly

I will come down on him. Did you see this past issue of X-Factor?
I don't know where Jeff Matsuda is from (but I'm sure he is an American).
The guy cannot draw. I was convinced that that "Barnes" was mutating
into the Energizer Bunny as the issue went on.

> The manga style is valid in some circumstances. (Or rather, it
> is valid generally, and it is the best choice in some circumstances.)
> It isn't always the best approach. It isn't always done well by
> the artists who do it. And because of western culture, it does
> tend to make all the female characters look excessively cute, which
> is something that artists should approach carefully when dealing
> with a western audience. But it is not an inherently bad style of
> art.

I believe it is.

> Those who just don't like manga, I have no problems with. Those
> who think it is objectively wrong need to broaden their horizons.

My horizons are plenty broad. I'm sure I read more comics
per week than most anybody here. This isn't about supposed American
superiority. If every artist on an X-Book was Japanese and could draw
with neat, subtle detail and fluidity, I'd be in heaven.

I'm finding a trend among posts here.... "Don't be intolerant of
manga... open your mind.... freedom of expression... etc..."
But don't be hypocritical... If you want freedom of expression, then
there has to be freedom of thought. Tolerance of different forms of
art? How about tolerance of different opinions? Including those that
you might see as close-minded. Don't preach to me about broad
horizon's when you believe _any_ opinion could be wrong.
Opening soon... "The People v. Larry Flint"

My favorite comics are no longer (nor have they been for months)
the X-Men... That's gettin' open-minded for me. I just have a very
good and well defined sense of what I like (I have been reading comics
for 16 years now). Because of all the debate going on in this thread, I
thumbed through the new issue of "Manga Today" (is that the name of
the Manga mag that came out on Wednesday?) to see if you guys were
on to something. All I found was more doe-eye's and big feet.... And then
I read X-Factor. Manga as an art form does not work for me. Again... get
over it.

Aaron

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961213032...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:

> You know what? Although I disagree with you, I'm secure enough
>in my appreciation of American comics that I don't need anyone's
>validation of my taste. I'm not goin to write post after post trying to
>convince you that because there is diveristy in American comics,
>this somehow makes up for, redeems, or justifies, it's obvious
>excesses and faults. I'm going to say you are missing out and leave
>it at that. You hate 'em? That's fine with me.

Ok. I fully understand what you are trying to say now. You know that you
are probably ignorant and you want to stay ignorant. You are bigoted
against Japanes comics, and it seems in earlier posts that you are bigoted
against the Japanese culture on the whole, and you don't want for anyone
to shatter your small world view and show you the beauty of Japanese
comics. Fair enough.

[Vermilion]

In article swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:
> Paul O'Brien wrote:

>> Was the Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown mini-series unacceptable
>> because it was in watercolours?

> Yes. But not because it was in water colors. It was garish. Painted
>art 9 times out of ten doesn't work (did anyone see "Code of Honor" this
>week?). Alex Ross is an exception.

Apparently there's just no accounting for poor taste. Meltdown is far and
away the best X mini-series, and more people than just I hold that opinion.
Quite a shame the art has rendered it unacceptable. I suppose we shall
instead have to make do with more acceptable fare, like the Storm LS. I'd
rather pry out my eyes with a grapefruit knife than read that again, but at
least it's conventional, eh?

- Vermilion, surprised by this and other statements. Gee, Swp, and you
think _I_ have a narrow view of things? Can't paint it, can do it
like manga - your sphere of acceptable superhero comic art seems to
be shrinking with each new post...

[David R. Henry]

Swp writes:

>>> I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What
>>> is the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
>>> artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!
>

>>Purpose? What is the "purpose" in Lee's style or Byrne's style?
>
> So then characters are drawn disproportionately just for the sake of
>it?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You want to seriously argue artistic styles
and other considerations, Swp, then you better start offering
better arguments.

>>What is the purpose in Picasso's style? It is art. If you don't like it,
>don't
>>buy it.
>
> My point exactly. By crossing over into the X-Book's it's forcing
>me to decide whether or not to skip an X-Title or be forced to accept
>a book with manga art.

Sounds like good art to me -- forcing you to make choices about the
way you view the world.

> That's not a fair choice, to me. That means eventually (if this trend
>continues) I won't be able to enjoy the X-Men anymore.

How sad that you aren't able to say "Perhaps I will, perhaps I won't,
be able to try and appreciate a different way of telling a comic
book story."

> I'm not contesting one way or another whether or not comic sales as a
>whole are higher in Japan than they are in the U.S. I'm saying that no
>Japanese manga comic is consistently a top seller in the U.S. which
>gives credence to the idea that the two countries have very differing
>tastes in comics.

Or that few American's speak Japanese. Or that there's not much
of a market in translating comic books yet. Or that cultural
provicialism in both countries leads them to stick with comics
they're more familiar with. Or any number of other arguments,
actually.

> Again, when I see Japanese comics outselling their American counter
>parts in the U.S. then I will concede manga as THE definitive comic
>book style.

No one's saying it's the be-all and end-all of comic book styles,
Swp. It is, however, a perfectly legitimate style.

>As of now however, it is still limited to an artistic
>influence and
>those titles which sell moderately well as a whole.

So is "American superhero" style, thankfully enough.

>>Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it not "true comic
>book
>>art."
>
> In my eyes it does (which is what I said). Not a rule... Not anything
>that you have to agree with, but my opinion of an art form which I do
>not believe mixes well with mainstream superhero comics.

But beyond your personal dislikes, why _doesn't_ it mix well with
mainstream superhero comics? You posted up your opinion, Swp,
and it's not exactly unheard of for people on Usenet to occasionally
argue differently.

[David R. Henry]

Swp writes:

>> I see that the phrase deXness used was offencive and I'm not
>> defending that. I would just like to put in that manga is a very diverse
>
>> medium. There are parallels to mainstream comics art that although they
>> are termed into one category there are alot more sub genres inside.
>
> But the term to describe Lau's art (and that artistic style) is
>still manga.

Considering that you have proven that you don't read manga, wouldn't
recognize the diversity of manga comics if they came up and
offered you a '57 Chevy, and have no interest in learning about
manga, on what exact qualities can you say that Lau's art is
manga? It's obviously influenced by the stuff, but it's about
as far from "real" manga as Liefeld is from Kirby.

>> I'm not defending Kevin's art because I thought it was totaly
>inappropriate
>> for this particular comic and dident even buy it.
>
> Which is what I've been complaining about all along.

No, you were complaining that an entire country's worth of
comic book artistic turnout is inappropriate for the X-titles,
didn't offer one bit of support for your argument beyond your
personal tastes which are inarguable, and then topped off
the performance with acting surprised when folks called you
on it. You are doing better in any argumentation classes you're
taking for law school, right?

> That was probably an unfair comparison to make since it is in
>hindsight and its often hard to pinpoint what exactly makes a story
>lasting or great (let alone try and transfer that aspect and replace it
>with something else)...

Thousands of English departments across the globe would disagree
with you, but that's beside the point (and, besides, English
departments are disagreeable to begin with).

>But I still stand by my assesment that had Lau
>or Ramos (or another overtly manga artist) drawn it, the impact would
>have been lost on me and others.

So is the weakness in Lau's art or in your artistic interpretation
abilities? How are we, the Neutral Public, to tell, based on
the arguments you've currently given us?

> I think this all goes to the heart of the matter of my displeasure
>with manga. I find it difficult to see the characters on the page as
>conveying actual emotions or participating in a mainstream superhero
>story.

I, on the other hand, feel the same way about Jim Lee and his
clone-based industry. Slick, emotionless, and badly posed -- that's
all Lee comes across to me as.

>Rather they come off as caricatures and the story itself something
>corny and cartoony (I particularly had this reaction to his depiction
>of Nga and Leong).

Have you read any Gardener Fox recently?

> I don't feel it's possible to tell a serious story of a mainstream
>superhero title within this art form.

Just because it doesn't work for you means it's impossible for
everyone?

> I could have written the same type of posts about Steve Epting
>or Bill Sinkowicz (sp as usual) or Mark Texeira. Some poeple
>truly enjoy their art work, yet for the life of me I can't see how.

Perhaps you could sit down and try something new for a change?

> All along I have maintained one thing only. I don't like the manga
>influence in mainstream American super hero comics (of which I
>consider the X-Men) and believe it is inappropriate to match such a
>drastic departure in style to what is supposed to be a traditional comic
>book.

No, you dismissed all manga artists as not even being as good as
Liefeld. That's not only cold, that's down right sub-Kelvin of you.

Swp, are you aware of the "drastic departure(s) in style" that
American comic books alone have gone through since, oh, the 60s,
even?

>Deal with it or don't. The world won't come to an end.

Worthy words for you to ponder as well, sahib.

"Father Mojo sent you?"
--Ruby III

[David R. Henry]

Swp writes:

>>Before I begin, I'd just like to say thanks to drh for giving me a
>>reason to delurk.
>
> And I'd like to apologize for giving _drh_ a reason to delurk.

Nonsense, my lad. You did well. Couldn't have managed it better
myself. Chip chip, all that rubbish, wot?

>>>>Huh? Manga an embarrasment? Some of the best comics made
>>>>are manga. Broaden your horizons.
>>
>>>> That's possible, but they are _manga comics_.
>>
>>>Ah, I see. Separate but equal, right? And the coloreds should
>>>drink from their own water fountain, and the workers should have
>>>no say in how the factory is run, and mutants should be locked
>>>up for both our and their protection.

>
>>Just because Swp doesn't like a particular style of art means he's a
>>racist believing in apartied?

No, but unless he can qualify why we should distinguish manga
comics as being a type of comics unable to be crossbred with
other types of comics, his argument trivializes and ignores a
vast amount of quality work. Lots of wretched crud, too (Rapeman
is a classic case), but Sturgeon's Law is universal in application.

Saying "Manga can be good, but they're only manga, not _real_
comics" is just like what most Americans think of comics in
general: "Comics can be good, but they're only comics, not
_real_ stories worthy of care."

>>(dave offers dave a big juicy plate of perspective)
>
> Yeah, I never imagined him for such dramatics. The Springer show
>must be rerunning late nights.

You're still avoiding the issue, Swip. Why can't the X-Men be
done in a "manga" style, whatever that is? Hell, Takahashi does
better fight scenes in Ranma every issue than we usually get in
a whole season of X-titles, and we get the added bonus of Akane
in the storyline as well. Or, to bring up another point of yours,
why can't comics be done with painted art?

In short, beyond the fact that you don't like manga, which none
of us have a problem with (beyond the suggestion that you should
look at some good examples of what you're throwing away before
you do so), why can't the X-titles have some manga influences
showing?

>>> Hell, man, comics are comics. If they can tell a great story
>>> about Storm written in iambic pentameter with Fauvist painting
>>> for the art, go for it. If the manga-stylized copycatting going
>>> on now helps the story, good for it.
>
>>Yeah, but does it? That's the point. Three years ago, that style was
>>called "cartoony" and was blacklisted in the American medium, right? I
>>think, and maybe Swp does too, that there was a valid reason for it.

>
> Yeah... As I've explained in my other posts on this thread. It simply
>lacks serious storytelling qualities.

Probably because most of the American artists on the X-titles now
who are showing a "manga" feel are, sadly, not that good on their
serious storytelling abilities. Or are you seriously saying that
there's something inherent in "manga" art that keeps it from
showing serious stories?

>Now if you've got a humerous book
>going (like say Ramos' Impulse) then maybe it works. But straight
>superhero fare? Uh Uh. You're destroying its own inherent uniqueness
>by forcing it to merge with a cartoony, parody, caricature (whatever)
>style.

"Destroying its own inherent uniqueness" is an empty phrase. Either
each comic is unique, or we all might as well just be rereading
Unlimited #4. Are you saying that each artist must develop their
own style that shows no outside influence? That each comic book,
once their first creative team has established the "look" of the
book, can never change? That certainly would have kept dozens of
outstanding Frank Miller Daredevil comics out of our world,
to pick just one Marvel example. Or Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol,
to pick an example closer to my heart.

>>Personally, I don't like caricatures (as opposed to characters) and
>>that's largely what I think manga and manga-influenced stuff is all
>>about.
>
> How else do you explain such a complete lack of regard for drawing
>the human body with correct proportions.

Sounds like you're complaining about 90% of American comics, Swp.

>(muscles or oversized breasts) heroes... But to throw purposely oversized
>eyes and feet and button sized mouths to get some kind of chil-like image
>of what is supposed to be an adult super-hero? That's more than I can
>handle and not something I care to read.

Your personal preferences and weakeness, then, are something we
all must endure? You would deny the creative staff the attempt
to try a new style just because you don't like it? There's nothing
wrong with you knowing what you doesn't work for you -- good
show on that!

>of X-Book's are drwan this way? They can pick dozens of no-name
>manga artists out of their "A" file Submissions box and pay them
>a minimum page rate to turn the X-Universe into Sailor Moon.

Rogue's Sailor Jupiter! It's obvious!

> Outrageous? Well a couple years ago did you think it would be this
>prevelent?

So long as the comics are good, let them be done in mezzotint, I
say. I have long dreamed of Ian Miller doing an X-Men annual.
The result would be... interesting. Hell, now that he's doing
Magic cards, maybe John Bolton can speak to him and get him
over to the X-offices.

>>> But to hate it just because
>>> it's not traditional for the (small) industry we have access to
>>> here in the States? (Pardon moi, out-of-US folks, but it's a
>>> Yank talking to a Yank, here).
>
>>Maybe he hates it because he thinks it's crap, not because four
>>out of five fanboys don't approve.
>
> Man, you're reading my mind.

Hating the recent X-titles because they're crap is one thing,
and probably not too far off the mark for a distressing percentage
of them. Hating all manga because of what you've seen only in
the X-titles is dismissive, small-minded, and bigoted. Separate
but equal comics it is, apparently.

>>> This sounds like your personal preference, and not a requirement
>>> of the American comic book industry, then, correct?
>
>>I don't think anybody assumes that the opinions expressed on racmx are
>>being monitored by BOB for policy consideration.

>
> Again... You are stating the obvious. drh just got a little testy and
>wanted (as per usual) to make mountains out of mole-hills.

No, Swippie, you're the one dismissing an entire nation's output
worth of comics because you don't like the artwork of the current
X-Force artist. If you don't want to sound like an arrogant airhead,
not sounding arrogant or airheaded is a good way to start.

>He follows
>a farely common standard of arguments of building up his own by creating
>or imaging his (in his mind) opponents.

You have this apparent persecution complex, Swp. You're not my
opponent. You're a person I'm having a public debate with, yes.

>>>> Manga/Animae can best be described as "parody" drawing.
>>
>>> Thereby showing Swp's obviously painfully uniformed viewpoint
>>> on manga.
>
>>Please, then, dave, enlighten... What am I, or any of us that dislike
>>the manga-influenced stuff missing?
>

> I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What is
>the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
>artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!

Disliking the "manga" influenced stuff in the X-titles is one
thing. Calling works like Domu, Fist of the North Star, the
various Mother Sarah stories, and the like parody drawings is
showing a painfully uninformed viewpoint. If all you know about
manga is that occasionally it has goofy-looking people, that's like
knowing American comic books from Sergio Arragones' "Destroys
the Marvel Universe" book.

You could, Swp, if you're interested, actually research into manga.
There are cultural reasons for the small, "cartoony" characters you
occasionally see in some titles -- or is it just easier to dismiss
the whole shebang because of Lau?

>>>>I want a comic book artist to draw the X-Men.
>>
>>> No, you want a comic book artist to draw _your_ version of the
>>> X-Men.
>
>>We all want artists to draw _our_ version, don't we?

No. I know my vision, and I create it daily. I want artists to
draw _their_ vision. I already know my view on life, better than
anyone else. Art helps tell us what other people are viewing.

>>Oh come on, Dave. Manga is based ENTIRELY on concepts
>>developed by the US medium originally.

Swp, I hereby invite you to submit that statement to
rec.arts.manga. Just tell us where we should leave the
ashes.

To wander over to Snowlock:

> And when I start seeing pure manga comics from overseas or the US
>start to dominate the top 100 sales charts, then I'll conceded the comic
>book market to Japan. Right now? You've got to be kidding me.

What joy is there in kidding you when it's so much more fun
seeing how you react to the truth? America's comic market has
fallen terribly over the past 50 years. Forget the market slump
of a few years ago -- used to be, popular comics would sell in
the millions in America. (Some, like Disney stuff, probably
still do, but I haven't checked up on that in a while). Comparatively
speaking, comics in America are nothing compared to them in Japan.
A comic is considered a good seller here in America if it clears,
what, a few hundred thousand issues? That's pathetic, from a mass
media standpoint.

> Aaron.... Manga may not be bad for your health now... but they used to
>say the same thing about cigarettes!

Sounds like Dr. Wertham's Clinic of Comic Book Health, to me.

[David R. Henry]

Swp writes:

> You know what? Although I disagree with you, I'm secure enough
>in my appreciation of American comics that I don't need anyone's
>validation of my taste.

Strangely enough, you would think someone secure in their appreciation
of American comics could handle a change of style in one line of
comics.

[David R. Henry]

Swp "Equal But Separate Comic Books" Warrior writes:

>>His argument seems to be that the X-books should never be
>>drawn in that style because they should _always_ be drawn in a
>>traditionally American style.
>
> I don't think that the "traditional" comic book style is necessarily
>American.

You're avoiding the point. Why should the X-titles always be drawn
in the same style?

>> This, with all due respect, is total rubbish.
>
> Yeah, but look who _you're_ putting up as examples.

At least Paul had examples, Swp dear.

>> Was the Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown mini-series unacceptable
>> because it was in watercolours?
>
> Yes. But not because it was in water colors. It was garish. Painted
>art 9 times out of ten doesn't work (did anyone see "Code of Honor" this
>week?). Alex Ross is an exception.

Why is Alex Ross an exception? Because you like him?

>> Was Bill Sienkiewicz's run on New Mutants indefensible because
>> it was innovative? Of course not.
>
> Innovative? He is perhaps my single least favorite comic artist (right
>up there with Mark Texiera or Jae Lee).

Sienkiewicz, of course, is regularly regarded as one of the most
consistent .... well, not consistent, considering his "writer's
block" problems .... but at least consistently talented artists
out there among others in the field.

>I could go on a tirade about this guy too....

Go right on ahead. It would be interesting to see if you have anything
to say about his style besides "I don't like it."

> What are you talking about? I don't care if the artist is from
>Timbuktoo
>if he can draw well.

But you do care if the artist is a manga artist.

>> The manga style is valid in some circumstances. . . . But it is not an

>> inherently bad style of art.
>
> I believe it is.

And for what reasons?

> My horizons are plenty broad. I'm sure I read more comics
>per week than most anybody here.

Perhaps. Forgive us for having been granted the impression that
they're all the same book.

>This isn't about supposed American
>superiority. If every artist on an X-Book was Japanese and could draw
>with neat, subtle detail and fluidity, I'd be in heaven.

What if they were drawing in neat, subtle detail and fluidity in
a manga style?

> I'm finding a trend among posts here.... "Don't be intolerant of
>manga... open your mind.... freedom of expression... etc..."
>But don't be hypocritical... If you want freedom of expression, then
>there has to be freedom of thought.

Freedom of thought is to be encouraged. Freedom of stupidity is
to be taken out behind the barn and hit with a sledgehammer.

>Tolerance of different forms of
>art? How about tolerance of different opinions? Including those that
>you might see as close-minded.

So, we should tolerate all different opinions? By the same token,
we should be able to talk regularly about the X-Men
animated series in this newsgroup, right?

>Don't preach to me about broad
>horizon's when you believe _any_ opinion could be wrong.

And where have you seen that opinion being expressed here,
Swp?

We have nothing to get over you not being able to like
manga, Swp. You, apparently, have trouble getting over that
people on xbooks have a low tolerance for a shoddy, blanket-
statement argument against an entire country, however.

[de Designer]

I will say upfront that I have never read a lot of manga. At least,
maybe it was, but I don't recall the name for it. I read the Chinese
version of Laurel and Hardy, you know, fat guy and skiiny guy?(That's
what I called itwhen I was about 5yrs old) Anyhow, it was in Chinese, so
my dad used to read it to me and translate. Until I learned enough to
read it on my own. The thing I liked most about those was not the art,
it was story and characterization. As I reread those old chinese comics,
with the folks jumping over buildings, and heavy posed scenes with a lot
of black shading, I would have to say the art was not what I would have
liked today. I liked the story most. Today, the story is often poor, so
I like the art better. That's all I have to say. Oh yes, I liked Akira
for the sotry, the background scenes, the images of motorcycle races and
everything that did not have normal human figures. I find the eyes thing
too distracting.
--
de Designer
<--- Hugs and kisses, if you need them --->
<---- Shade and Sweet water, mes amis and Edgerunners ---->
<--Assoc. Professor at Xavier's Institute of Higher Learning-->
<-------- Link at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~jamesony ------->
<-Delta Gamma Omega Chapter of the Askani Sisterhood->
<-University of Southern California->

[de Designer]

swpwa...@aol.com wrote:
> I would be interested in this also. Someone tell me clearly... What is
> the purpose of drawing characters so cartoony? Is it some sort of
> artistic statement? Hidden meaning? Anything?!

Now, as I said earlier, I don't read a lot of manga-style nor do I know
its history, but I do want my characters to look realisticly human,
unless there is a point behind it (ie Beast, Deathstrike, Nightcrawler).
This is all speculation: Wasn't the original purpose of the "big eyes"
thing a response to make the characters different from the readers?
Asians have the smaller, more narrow eyes(which makes us beautiful, of
course ;D ) so to distance ourselves from the maybe not so "nice"
actions, or to give a us a sort of grounding effect (we CAN'T be like
the cartoon hero, hey look different) to make us humble. Or just like
the rest of the comic book industry, as a visual way of stating that
this was escapism.
I did not like it because I didn't think it was "bad" artwork, it was
just stuff I didn't like. (I also dislike grey Indians, gold Asians, and
talc Americans.) I fully give it my blessings as a style of artwork to
exists. Done!

[de Designer]

Swpwarrior wrote:
>(you actually started to grow on me with all that BOPSM stuff),

BoSPMwaA! Assemble!

(I'm sorry, I just had to interject, it's the only way we can be
"on-topic"(or at least META or TAN ontopic))

<ST.K_MODEON>
Guys, can we get back to Lau's work, and not have any insults please?)
<ST.KMODEOFF>

[de Designer]

west...@aol.com wrote:

> swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:
> > You know what? Although I disagree with you, I'm secure enough
> >in my appreciation of American comics that I don't need anyone's

> >validation of my taste. I'm not goin to write post after post trying to
> >convince you that because there is diveristy in American comics,
> >this somehow makes up for, redeems, or justifies, it's obvious
> >excesses and faults. I'm going to say you are missing out and leave
> >it at that. You hate 'em? That's fine with me.
>
> Ok. I fully understand what you are trying to say now. You know that you
> are probably ignorant and you want to stay ignorant. You are bigoted
> against Japanes comics, and it seems in earlier posts that you are bigoted
> against the Japanese culture on the whole, and you don't want for anyone
> to shatter your small world view and show you the beauty of Japanese
> comics. Fair enough.

Okay, I don't think that Aaron was implying any inherent bigorty in
these threads.His point, and I agree,is that while we may have all these
choices to use the various styles, it doesn't necessarily mean that we
have to use them all. It's not like these styles would disappear like
forgotten gods or something. I would hazard a guess that if we were to
be beholden to such styles, then it would be much like a reverse
discrimination that gave us some sort of quota of "needed" styles. Why
try to go for another variety when we haven't figured out what was wrong
in the first place. I sort of see it as running away from the problem on
a spider-sense tingling kind of thing, before we identify a source. It
just makes us run farther w/o purpose. Maybe we have too much choice? Am
I validating Aaron or Williams?

[de Designer]

Okay, I just solidified just what I was trying to say. If we call Aaron
a bigot or racist, then what do we call McLean? It just denigrates Aaron
and lessens Mclean's attitude. You include too many people under a term,
and you lessen the term. I can't recall specifics at the moment, but
Jesse Jackson gets angry that Hollywood is racists because it doesn't
have enough blacks in the Acadamy Awards. Farrakahn says that Koreans
are bloodsuckers of the community; he makes deals with terrorists
against the US. Did the newspapers give either of them any chiding? Not
really, they just focus on what's his name, the cop from the OJ trial
and just bring it up again and again. Why hasn't Farrakahn been accused
of sedition or as a traitor of the state? Society seems to have this
focus on the anti-black setiments yet allows those comments go by. Do we
allow too much to go by because of guilt? Probably, but it still sucks
and is not right.

--
de Designer, not a litigator, just a pedestrian voicing an opinion

[Swpwarrior]

In article <19961213032...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:

>> You know what? Although I disagree with you, I'm secure enough
>>in my appreciation of American comics that I don't need anyone's
>>validation of my taste. I'm not goin to write post after post trying to
>>convince you that because there is diveristy in American comics,
>>this somehow makes up for, redeems, or justifies, it's obvious
>>excesses and faults. I'm going to say you are missing out and leave
>>it at that. You hate 'em? That's fine with me.

>Ok. I fully understand what you are trying to say now. You know that you
>are probably ignorant and you want to stay ignorant. You are bigoted
>against Japanes comics, and it seems in earlier posts that you are
bigoted
>against the Japanese culture on the whole, and you don't want for anyone
>to shatter your small world view and show you the beauty of Japanese
>comics. Fair enough.

You must be a tarot card reader or something. I look at that
paragraph and all I see is me sayin... I just don't care if you like 'em
or not

So basically, this is the desperation you've sunk to? You've tried
arguing your point straight on, with divesity in comics pleas, with
insults, and with sarcasm. Now with nothing left to turn to, you call
me a bigot because I don't like manga? And please, son don't be
so obvious in your heel lapping... It's bad enough you can't think
for yourself, but at least speak for yourself (otherwise next time just
cut and paste Hohn's text -- it's quicker).

I would watch the choice of words, guy. You are watering down
a very powerful word and insulting a great many people on this planet
(including myself) who have been true victims of racism and bigotry
by equating not liking a comic book with racial oppresion. (and don't
bother me with any more encyclopedic definitions -- we all know
what bigot means) I hope I never take comics as seriously as
aparteid.

Come to think of it you did rail pretty hard on American comics...
You must be a racist! So you're racist AND bigoted against American
culture, eh?

Oh and one last thing.... I think you oughta check out my fan-fic
and pay close attention to the President's dialogue for my racial
views. Or are ya ignorant? If someone who has read it would like
to tell him, I'd appreciate it.

You seem tired. This didn't work... So what next? Death threats?

Aaron

[Swpwarrior]

west...@aol.com wrote (and I added three words):

> I hate those American comics. They are nothing more than half naked
> big breasted women, super muscular men, big guns, and no story. Not
> once have i ever seen an American comic that held my intrest because
> they are all like this. For proof, let me present Rob Liefeld. His plots
are
> so thin. And so, based on this, I can assume that all American comics
> are the same. God I hate them.

Ok. I fully understand what you are trying to say now. You know that

you are probably ignorant and you want to stay ignorant. You are bigoted

against American comics, and it seems in earlier posts that you are
bigoted
against the American culture on the whole, and you don't want for anyone
to shatter your small world view and show you the beauty of American
comics. Fair enough.

Aaron... I like it better when he says it.

[balue]

David R. Henry wrote:
>
> Swp "Equal But Separate Comic Books" Warrior writes:

This kinda crap just makes me sick. Dave, I really did expect more from
you. I'm ashamed for you... really. (please note lack of sarcasm).

There's certain people on racmx that I expect these type of accusations
from, but you were certainly not one of them... were.

Snowlock.

[Kristina Sennvik]

balue <ba...@northernnet.com> wrote:

>David R. Henry wrote:
>>
>> Swp "Equal But Separate Comic Books" Warrior writes:

Take that back.

tina

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961216103...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:

> Ok. I fully understand what you are trying to say now. You know that
> you are probably ignorant and you want to stay ignorant. You are bigoted
> against American comics, and it seems in earlier posts that you are
>bigoted
> against the American culture on the whole, and you don't want for anyone
> to shatter your small world view and show you the beauty of American
> comics. Fair enough.

Well...this would work, except I have never mentioned a dislike for
American culture except for this extremely sarcastic post which was
intended to parodize your views and show them to you in another life. But,
I guess it was too complex of a literary device for you to get...Oh well.

[west...@aol.com]

In article <19961216101...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:

> You must be a tarot card reader or something. I look at that
>paragraph and all I see is me sayin... I just don't care if you like 'em
>or not
>
> So basically, this is the desperation you've sunk to? You've tried
>arguing your point straight on, with divesity in comics pleas, with
>insults, and with sarcasm. Now with nothing left to turn to, you call
>me a bigot because I don't like manga? And please, son don't be
>so obvious in your heel lapping... It's bad enough you can't think
>for yourself, but at least speak for yourself (otherwise next time just
>cut and paste Hohn's text -- it's quicker).

Bigot (according to Webster's): one who holds blindly and intolerantly to
particular creed, opinion, etc. This seems to fit your view of manga since
you have admited to not actually taking the time to read it. Ergo, you are
a bigot

> I would watch the choice of words, guy. You are watering down
>a very powerful word and insulting a great many people on this planet
>(including myself) who have been true victims of racism and bigotry
>by equating not liking a comic book with racial oppresion. (and don't
>bother me with any more encyclopedic definitions -- we all know
>what bigot means) I hope I never take comics as seriously as
>aparteid.

WHOA! I never accused you of racism. I don't believe I ever used the word
racist in reference to you. I am merely refering to your generalization
and uninformed dislike for Japanese culture and comics that you presented
in earlier posts.

> Come to think of it you did rail pretty hard on American comics...
>You must be a racist! So you're racist AND bigoted against American
>culture, eh?

I was being sarcastic. About 75-80% of the comics I buy are American. And
again, i never called you a racist.

> Oh and one last thing.... I think you oughta check out my fan-fic
>and pay close attention to the President's dialogue for my racial
>views. Or are ya ignorant? If someone who has read it would like
>to tell him, I'd appreciate it.
>
> You seem tired. This didn't work... So what next? Death threats?

Well, since logic doesn't seem to work, I don't know what to do...If you
really want to be ignorant, uninformed, and bigoted, i guess there is
nothing I can do.

[Joel Bautista]

Will someone please tell me why all of a sudden X-Force has turned into
a Japanese Manga book? There are certain styles one comes to associate
with things, which is what contributes to making you like those
things. I mean, they look like freaking cartoons! They all look
alike! What happened to realism? What editor was responsible for this
outrage?
This is not the adventures of Astroboy or Gigantor the space-age robot!

[Vermilion]

X-Force has _not_ suddenly turned into a Japanese Manga book. Had it
actually done so, it would probably be much better than it actually is.

- Vermilion, more and more disillusioned by the masses of racmx. X-Force
isn't manga, folks - it's crap! Something like, ooooooh, Appleseed
is manga. Separate, and by no means equal.

[Swpwarrior]

Joel Bautista <jbau...@bouquet.com> wrote eloquently:

> Will someone please tell me why all of a sudden X-Force has
> turned into a Japanese Manga book? There are certain styles
> one comes to associate with things, which is what contributes
> to making you like those things. I mean, they look like freaking
> cartoons! They all look alike! What happened to realism? What
> editor was responsible for this outrage?
> This is not the adventures of Astroboy or Gigantor the space-age
> robot!

Bwahahahaha!!!! My sphere of influence grows....

Sorry I had to bail for a few days (last of my finals). If anyone
still wants to run this into the ground a little more... Otherwise,
can someone tell my what the hell happened in X-Men? So Jamil
never existed? Then how come he was helping Tyler/Genesis
in his attempt to re-adamantiumize Wolverine? Why was this
story even necessary? And how come Candra is still alive?

(hhmmff) Aaron.... (sigh of contentment)

[David R. Henry]

Vermilion writes:

>X-Force has _not_ suddenly turned into a Japanese Manga book. Had it
>actually done so, it would probably be much better than it actually is.

Except we'd now be arguing over the merits of the OAV. *shrug*

Otherwise, a great truism, Vermy. :)

"You comin', Darwin?" --Rogue
"Just a minute." Darwin paged through the book again. "'Darwin otaku no
hentai.' OK, let's go."

--

dhe...@plains.nodak.edu
"When the Martians land, will the press have access?"

[Kevin Wong]

Joel Bautista <jbau...@bouquet.com> wrote:

>Will someone please tell me why all of a sudden X-Force has turned into

>a Japanese Manga book? There are certain styles one comes to associate
>with things, which is what contributes to making you like those
>things. I mean, they look like freaking cartoons! They all look
>alike! What happened to realism? What editor was responsible for this
>outrage?

This is the book created for Rob Liefeld and you have the nerve to ask
"What happened to realism?" Jeph Loeb absolutely destroyed 40-odd issues
of Shatterstar continuity and you harp on the artist? Personally I thought
Lau's art was a refreshing change of pace, especially since he put in more
background detail that Pollina/Liefeld/Daniel did. But just remember, in
Japan, they use this type of art/animation, and they inject it into a grim,
dark, atmosphere. And it works

But if you're looking for someone to blame, blame the two guys who are
currently doing Captain America. The artist for having ideas but no real
direction, and the writer for taking everything the previous writer did and
destroying previous plot threads with incomprehensible crap.

>This is not the adventures of Astroboy or Gigantor the space-age robot!

No this is X-Force, and Kevin Lau did excellent work for a two issue
fill-in.

Whether you like it or you don't, it's one of the best things going
today...
Kevin Wong kev_...@pathcom.com
ERTW
...sig currently under renovation...

[Joel Bautista]

And would you still want to read X-Men if they started drawing everybody
with big round heads and tiny little bodies but still have them in the
same serious storylines? I know all of an artist's people tend to look
alike, and I personally like manga; Crying Freeman is a good example
of real cutting-edge, realistic manga art. The women in Crying Freeman
or Fist of the North Star do NOT look like cartoons with
overly-oversized puppydog eyes!

[linda]

On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:34:11 -0800, Joel Bautista
<jbau...@bouquet.com> wrote:

>And would you still want to read X-Men if they started drawing everybody
>with big round heads and tiny little bodies but still have them in the
>same serious storylines?

All righty! Does this mean there's going to be a mini-series in store
for.....The Watcher?????

linda
Villa Diodati Music http://www.nternet.net/~albie
"If you give up your dream, you die; or, at the very least, you become really nauseated." --Lily Tomlin

[Joel Bautista]

C'mon, you know what I mean. What if the X-Men were drawn in the
style of "Peanuts" Charles Schulz? Likewise, those owlish manga optics
of Lau's are too much. If you want to turn X-Men into manga, turn it
into GOOD manga.

[David R. Henry]

Joel Bautista writes:

Well, that goes without saying. However, I'd be happy with even Gold Digger.
Hell, I _AM_ happy with Gold Digger.

[Charlie Ball]

In article <dunnetg.12...@email.uc.edu>,
dun...@email.uc.edu (Vermilion) writes:
>In article swpwa...@aol.com (Swpwarrior) writes:

>> Paul O'Brien wrote:
>
>>> Was the Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown mini-series unacceptable
>>> because it was in watercolours?
>
>> Yes. But not because it was in water colors. It was garish. Painted
>>art 9 times out of ten doesn't work (did anyone see "Code of Honor" this
>>week?). Alex Ross is an exception.
>

> Apparently there's just no accounting for poor taste. Meltdown is far and
>away the best X mini-series, and more people than just I hold that opinion.
>Quite a shame the art has rendered it unacceptable. I suppose we shall
>instead have to make do with more acceptable fare, like the Storm LS. I'd
>rather pry out my eyes with a grapefruit knife than read that again, but at
>least it's conventional, eh?

In the spirit of infesting an ongoing argument with my own opinion (which is
automatically right, as I never tire of asserting), I must weigh in with
my opinion that manga is horrible. I'd like to think that the current
madcap rush to convert Xbooks art (which ordinarily bothers me 200% less
than the plot does) to a nasty sub-manga pulp owes its genesis to a spirit
of experimentation with alternate styles. If that were the case, I'd welcome
it with open arms - even the most generic of superhero comics (and the
Xbooks have become the Neighbours of the comics world) should be able to
diversify and play around with styles. Unfortunately, it appears to be only
a sorry attempt to tap the current manga fervour which currently bothers
right-minded citizens like myself. Good manga is not quite as annoying as
anal boils, but bad manga is much worse, and, my children, bad manga is what
we are being forcefed.

But then I prefer the Venetian school of Renaissance art to the Florentine,
and think Veronese better than Titian, Turner better than Monet and Vaserely
better than Pollock, so what do I know? Oh yes - everything good, that's what.

Oh, and, swp fella, Sienkiewicz's run on NM was the finest art ever seen on
a X-title. Fact.

Cheers,

Charlie

[west...@aol.com]

In article <59df0f$i...@news.pathcom.com>, kev_...@pathcom.com (Kevin
Wong) writes:

>Whether you like it or you don't, it's one of the best things going
>today...

Umm...no...NO...HELL NO!!! X-Force may be an entertaining read (which,
having read it, I don't believe) but to say it is one of the best things
going today is a horendous misstatement. Look at how many better books
there are out there. At Marvel there's Deadpool, UTOS, Daredevil, and
sometimes Hulk. At DC there's Flash, Impulse, Aztec and JLA. At Image
there's Maxx and Stormwatch. At Dark Horse there's Sin City, Madman,
BWS:Storyteller, Spumco Comic Book... I could go on, but I think I've made
my point.

[Joel Bautista]

First, sir, let me differ: manga, per se, is NOT horrible. Do you
read it? Have you perused Crying Freeman with its anatomical detail and
intricacy, posings and shading? Have you expertienced the graphic
starkness of Lone Wolf and Cub?

Now, permit me to concur. Bad manga is the pits, and this definitely
looks like bad manga. For Pete's sake, if you're gonna copy
something, do it right.