Claremont's "Revenge" / CC Trademarks

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scramble...@yahoo.com

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Apr 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/29/98
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Can't say what he's doing on FF was totally unexpected. CC tends to get
fixated on certain ideas, and he gets bent on seeing them thru, if not in one
book, then his next.

The Lighthouse-as-dimensional-nexus idea for instance was transposed into S7
in the form of the Crossroads coffeehouse.
Then there's the Jean-Rachel-Maddie-Phoenix loop.
And there is the recurring Dressing-up-Barbie sequence, which he did to
umm..let's see...Dazz, Rogue and latest Kitty and Susan Storm.

Anyone else wish to add to this list of trademark CC story devices?

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David Morris Damast

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 scramble...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Can't say what he's doing on FF was totally unexpected. CC tends to get
> fixated on certain ideas, and he gets bent on seeing them thru, if not in one
> book, then his next.

Yes.

> Then there's the Jean-Rachel-Maddie-Phoenix loop.

Well, that's his generic "What do you do when the woman (you love) becomes
all-powerful?" theme, which must include Binary and Polaris/Malice, and
occasionally Storm.

> And there is the recurring Dressing-up-Barbie sequence, which he did to
> umm..let's see...Dazz, Rogue and latest Kitty and Susan Storm.

Jean, telekinetically, in one panel. UXM #125, iirc.
Kitty, non-stop, notably the mid-150s with the Shi'ar clothing machine.
Girls' Night Out, UXM #244.

> Anyone else wish to add to this list of trademark CC story devices?

Asgard, or any magic realm where people dress in furs.
(Kitty's Fairy Tale (UXM #153), Alpha Flight/X-Men (vol. 1!!), Kulan Gath
(UXM #190-1), UXM Annual #9, and the NM Annual that year, 'Ro and Forge
circa #225)

Blowing up planes or other modes of transport. Non-stop. Although somewhat
funny as a running gag.
(Exactly how many surplus Blackbirds does the USAF have lying around?)

David M. Damast
The Aztecs had believed that the world would end in one of four ways:
earthquake, fire, flood, or jaguars falling from the sky.


Leor Blumenthal

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 scramble...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Can't say what he's doing on FF was totally unexpected. CC tends to get
> fixated on certain ideas, and he gets bent on seeing them thru, if not in one
> book, then his next.
>

> The Lighthouse-as-dimensional-nexus idea for instance was transposed into S7
> in the form of the Crossroads coffeehouse.

> Then there's the Jean-Rachel-Maddie-Phoenix loop.

> And there is the recurring Dressing-up-Barbie sequence, which he did to
> umm..let's see...Dazz, Rogue and latest Kitty and Susan Storm.

And to Cascade, Network, and Saturn Girl in Soveriegn 7.

> Anyone else wish to add to this list of trademark CC story devices?

"Ignore what the next writer did on this book" sequence.
The alternate timeline where barbarians rule or the Nazis one WWII.
All guest stars must behave identically to the regular cast.
Everyone has the same speech pattern, except for one team member who has
either an accent, or says "Bub" every three sentences.
Vikings. Lots of Vikings.
Having a tie-in story four months after a crossover.
Powerful telepaths.
Powerful telepaths who go insane.
Heroes who fight to save a world that hates and fears them.
Plots that last months without going anywhere.
Changing characters beyond recognition.
Heroes of great moral strength and intellect breaking their "code of
ethics" arbitrarily, and making stupid mistakes so the plot can advance.
(Especially Superman)
Heroes who deny the existence of magic, despite the fact that Dr.
Strange/Zattana/Merlin is an old friend of their's.
Reporters from NPR. (The same ones in fact.)
Darksied soliliquizing, or sipping cappichino.
Magneto changing from a villain to hero and back to a villain without
skipping a beat.
Beings of godlike power who act like spoiled child.
Beings of godlike intellect who make mistakes that the Savage Hulk could
have seen coming a mile away.
Characters with strong religious beliefs are depicted as old-fashioned,
intolerant, or out of touch.

That's all I can think of.

Leor Blumenthal


Aleph Press

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
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Leor Blumenthal (lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) wrote:


: Magneto changing from a villain to hero and back to a villain without
: skipping a beat.

Everything *Claremont* wrote after UXM #150 and before XM #1 had Magneto
as a sympathetic character, and never a "villain", though occasionally,
he did stuff that the other heroes had a serious problem with. In UXM #1,
Claremont was working under an editorial directive to re-villainize
Magneto by hook or by crook, and it shows; as powerful as that last
three-book arc was, it suffers majorly from Idiot Plot, in that none of
it would have happened if the X-Men hadn't behaved like idiots.

So no, Claremont has never flipflopped Magneto from villain to hero to
villain to hero. He went, villain, hero, tragic antagonist, dead. Later
writers brought him back and couldn't figure out what the hell to do with
him.

--
Be good, servile little citizen-employee, and pay your taxes so the rich
don't have to.
--Zepp Weasel

Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com

All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.mindspring.com/~alara/ajer.

Forge

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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JMcgin1007 wrote

<snipage !>

>All that and some of the best writing to be found in comic books.

Damn straight !

Forge
-Good to be back


AGr3691541

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980430...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:

>Characters with strong religious beliefs are depicted as old-fashioned,
>intolerant, or out of touch.
>

What, you mean like Nightcrawler or that preacher in the X-men/Brood
confrontation just before Inferno?

Lazy Line Painter Al


Leor Blumenthal

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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No, like Reverend Craig, or the televangelist villain from "God Loves Man
Kills". And despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never shows
them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
carols.

> Lazy Line Painter Al

Leor Blumenthal


Leor Blumenthal

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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On Fri, 1 May 1998, Forge wrote:

>
> JMcgin1007 wrote
>
> <snipage !>
>
> >All that and some of the best writing to be found in comic books.
>
> Damn straight !

I'd hardly consider Sovereign Seven Plus LSH, or Superman/Wonder
Woman:Whom Gods Destroy to be the finest writing in comic books.

> Forge
> -Good to be back

Leor Blumenthal


JMcgin1007

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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>
>JMcgin1007 wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> All that and some of the best writing to be found in comic books.
>
>
>What, did he steal it from someone?
>
>
Very comical.


JMcgin1007

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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>
>On Fri, 1 May 1998, Forge wrote:
>
>>
>> JMcgin1007 wrote
>>
>> <snipage !>
>>
>> >All that and some of the best writing to be found in comic books.
>>
>> Damn straight !
>
>I'd hardly consider Sovereign Seven Plus LSH, or Superman/Wonder
>Woman:Whom Gods Destroy to be the finest writing in comic books.
>
>
Never said everything he wrote was gold but can you name one comic book writer
who's every issue was gold.
To me even Claremonts' poorer works are better than much of what is out there
now.

scramble...@yahoo.com

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May 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/1/98
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>> As has been speculated, his taking over the book came pretty much out of
the blue and he didn't have a lot of time to prepare. His long term plans
focus on the FF dealing with the fact the Franklin is pretty near all
powerful. It sounds like it could be darn good.

That sounds suspiciously like a Phoenix rehash, no? C'mon Technet...bounty
hunters...gee, Saturnyne will pop up next to seduce Reed Richards, I'll bet.
Then Mojo.

BTW, which characters does he hate, apart from Cyclops? Of course, everyone
hates Cyke -- stick in the mud, boring old fudd.

> > Anyone else wish to add to this list of trademark CC story devices?

What I really hate is that he seems to be condescending on the artists, as
though they don't do their job well enough for readers to SEE what's happening
. He has to have the character describe what is happening, like, "I tripped!"
or "That coruscating quasi-neural transmatting photon energy cannon hit me!
I'm hurt!" Right...like the character had time to think of all those
words...and to tell HIMSELF, in case HE wasn't aware HE knew! Sheesh!

> "Ignore what the next writer did on this book" sequence.

-well, every writer wants his own take

> Everyone has the same speech pattern, except for one team member who has

-what can be said is that he really cannot write kids. Read the issues
starring Power Pack. Kids DO NOT think (or talk) like adults!

> Plots that last months without going anywhere.

-actually that's the best CC feature. One thing you don't have to worry is
that he forgets it --- unlike with some other writers...

> Changing characters beyond recognition.

- that IS good. Claremont said in an interview that change is a constant in
his writing. That if you pick up a '80s book and compare it to a 90's book,
there had to be visible difference. This is probably what puts him at odds
with Marvel, cos they like the safety of keeping a hot character the way
she/he is, except for cosmetic changes, so the boat is not rocked. Look at
Rogue. You think she'd have gotten over her see-no-touch problem. CC was
planning something else just before Inferno. Anyway, you can usu trust him to
do a good overhaul -- Psylocke, Storm...

Kate Martin

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May 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/2/98
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jmcgi...@aol.com (JMcgin1007) writes:

> >I'd hardly consider Sovereign Seven Plus LSH, or Superman/Wonder
> >Woman:Whom Gods Destroy to be the finest writing in comic books.
> >
> >
>Never said everything he wrote was gold but can you name one comic book writer
> who's every issue was gold.

I'd be tempted to give you Alan Moore. But I've yet to read everything
he's written.

> To me even Claremonts' poorer works are better than much of what is out there
> now.

Shrug. Ok. There's actually a lot of high quality stuff around, if you
look hard enough.


--
Kate Martin jul...@haven.boston.ma.us k...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
"It not only strained disbelief, it tore several ligaments of credibility."
"Since no one is perfect, it follows that all great deeds have been
accomplished out of imperfection.' -- Lois McMaster Bujold

Kate Martin

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May 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/2/98
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scramble...@yahoo.com writes:

> What I really hate is that he seems to be condescending on the artists, as
>though they don't do their job well enough for readers to SEE what's happening
> . He has to have the character describe what is happening, like, "I tripped!"
> or "That coruscating quasi-neural transmatting photon energy cannon hit me!
> I'm hurt!" Right...like the character had time to think of all those
> words...and to tell HIMSELF, in case HE wasn't aware HE knew! Sheesh!

Well, to be fair, a /lot/ of 'older' comics writers do that. I was reading
early West Coast Avengers awhile back, and Englehart did it ALL THE TIME.
Claremont didn't do it /too/ much on X-Men, but from what I've seen, he's
not really into the swing of things on FF yet.

> > Changing characters beyond recognition.
>
> - that IS good. Claremont said in an interview that change is a constant in
> his writing.

And amen to it, too.


-kate, tired.


AGr3691541

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May 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/2/98
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.98050...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:

Well, the point is he hasn't portrayed all religious people as intolerant, just
some of them - and this just seems like an accurate reflection of society. Also
he obviously doesn't show a lot of the characters religious life because
'Nightcrawler Goes To Church' would make a crap issue.* But he has made their
beliefs part of the story, as in Nightcrawlers soul-searching after meeting the
Beyonder or Kitty's anger at the Lightning Squad in Excalibur.
Do you want all religious characters to be tolerant, trendy and with-it? Now
that would be soooo realistic wouldn't it?

Lazy Line Painter Al
-who's folks come from Northern Ireland, so I could write you an encyclopedia
on Religion and It's Intolerance.
*unless it was drawn by Leniel Yu

Joshua Newhouse

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May 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/2/98
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On Fri, 1 May 1998, Leor Blumenthal wrote:


>
> On 1 May 1998, AGr3691541 wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980430...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
> > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:
> >
> > >Characters with strong religious beliefs are depicted as old-fashioned,
> > >intolerant, or out of touch.

<SNIPPED>

> No, like Reverend Craig, or the televangelist villain from "God Loves Man
> Kills". And despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
> did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never shows
> them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
> carols.
>
> > Lazy Line Painter Al
>
> Leor Blumenthal

I think this fact is a good thing... fine if you want to have someone
Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Christian etc. But there is no need to
shove in a ton of different references... comic books and religion
need not intersect to that extent in my humble opinion... otherwise
things in my opinion tend to get preachy...

I remember the episode of X-Men:TAS with Nightcrawler preaching to the
X-men about faith and g-d etc. The one in the monastery... this
episode had Nightcrawler, this was cool, but Nightcrawler was a
priesat which I found inappropriate... Religion is fine, take it in
moderation and don's preach to the world... I have no problems with
people's beliefs except when they are shoved in my face.

Tolerance of all, including agnostics and atheists I say

Josh


Brian Fried

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May 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/3/98
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You forgot, of course, the "I am a god and you must take it or leave it"
style of writing, coupled with the "I created them, I know them best" philo-
sophy as best exemplified once more with his recent writing. Add to that
his "Well, I have to put it in..." work.

We all know what's coming up in FF. Franklin is too powerful but the
Technet are too incompetent to defeat the Fantastic Four. Then Saturnyne
steps in to declare that she will not kill the boy because of Sue's
promise to raise him properly. And then, of course, the return of Rachel
-- which Claremont suggested will, unfortunately, happen.

As for the latter comment, look at the scene with Namor. That was only put
in because the events of the alternate reality are going to lead to (a) a
return there because Bucky will lead the New Warriors according to Marvel
(b) it affects Hulk and/or Cap and/or Iron Man and/or The Avengers, and
you cross the characters over to hopefully cash in.


======================================================================
Brian Fried
bfr...@chat.carleton.ca
Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"What do you say? Will the human race be run in a day?
Or will someone save this planet we're playing on?"
- Paul McCartney, 'Pipes Of Peace', 1983
======================================================================

Johan Lundstrom

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May 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/3/98
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On 3 May 1998 07:15:51 GMT, bfr...@chat.carleton.ca (Brian Fried)
wrote:

>You forgot, of course, the "I am a god and you must take it or leave it"
>style of writing,

Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. Writers can _listen_ to fans if they
want to, but obeying the wishes of the fans just to please them is a
recipe for disaster.

>coupled with the "I created them, I know them best" philo-
>sophy as best exemplified once more with his recent writing.

While I can see the annouance factor in this, he's basically correct.

>Add to that his "Well, I have to put it in..." work.

Pardon?

>We all know what's coming up in FF. Franklin is too powerful but the
>Technet are too incompetent to defeat the Fantastic Four. Then Saturnyne
>steps in to declare that she will not kill the boy because of Sue's
>promise to raise him properly.

This could tie in well with Kitty being in the FF (if that rumour is
true). There is some kind of connection between Kitty and Saturnyne -
I've never been able to figure out exactly what.

>And then, of course, the return of Rachel
>-- which Claremont suggested will, unfortunately, happen.

Ray's coming back!?! Sources, sources!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se>

"I'm so bad, so GOOD!"
Mesmero, Classic X-Men 17

Andyg3129

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May 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/3/98
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jmcgi...@aol.com (JMcgin1007) writes:

>Never said everything he wrote was gold but can
>you name one comic book writer
>who's every issue was gold.

Me.

Andy, hasn't written a stinker yet!


JMcgin1007

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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>On 3 May 1998 07:15:51 GMT, bfr...@chat.carleton.ca (Brian Fried)
>wrote:

Johan Lundstrom wrote

>>You forgot, of course, the "I am a god and you must take it or leave it"
>>style of writing,
>
>Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. Writers can _listen_ to fans if they
>want to, but obeying the wishes of the fans just to please them is a
>recipe for disaster.

Indeed. On a side note question does anyone know of a writer who listens to
and writes what the fans say? Just curious.

>>coupled with the "I created them, I know them best" philo-
>>sophy as best exemplified once more with his recent writing.
>
>While I can see the annouance factor in this, he's basically correct.

Control of characters is part of what created Image but I aggree, a writer who
creates a character should have some say as to how a character is written,
particularly if others have written said character wrong.


>>Add to that his "Well, I have to put it in..." work.
>
>Pardon?

Huh?

>>We all know what's coming up in FF. Franklin is too powerful but the
>>Technet are too incompetent to defeat the Fantastic Four. Then Saturnyne
>>steps in to declare that she will not kill the boy because of Sue's
>>promise to raise him properly.
>
>This could tie in well with Kitty being in the FF (if that rumour is
>true). There is some kind of connection between Kitty and Saturnyne -
>I've never been able to figure out exactly what.
>
>

In an interveiw Claremont once said something to the effect that Kitty 'might'
become the next Saturnyne. That might explain why Sat-tr-9 was after Kitty in
Excalibur.
And I hope the rumor of Kitty being in the FF is true but last I heard makes it
unlikely Claremont will be allowed to do this.


>>And then, of course, the return of Rachel
>>-- which Claremont suggested will, unfortunately, happen.
>
>Ray's coming back!?! Sources, sources!!
>
>

Yes! Tell us more!


JMcgin1007

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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Sounds interesting. What have you written and where can I find it.


Leor Blumenthal

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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On 1 May 1998, JMcgin1007 wrote:


I wrote:
> >I'd hardly consider Sovereign Seven Plus LSH, or Superman/Wonder
> >Woman:Whom Gods Destroy to be the finest writing in comic books.
> >
> >

> Never said everything he wrote was gold but can you name one comic book writer
> who's every issue was gold.

> To me even Claremonts' poorer works are better than much of what is out there
> now.

Such as? Kelly's X-men? Busiek's Avengers or Thunderbolts?

I've read a lot of Claremonts work. Some of it has astonished me, and
helped fire up my imagination. But the rest is just plain awful.

Leor Blumenthal


JMcgin1007

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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>On 1 May 1998, JMcgin1007 wrote:
>
>
>I wrote:
>> >I'd hardly consider Sovereign Seven Plus LSH, or Superman/Wonder
>> >Woman:Whom Gods Destroy to be the finest writing in comic books.
>> >
>> >
>> Never said everything he wrote was gold but can you name one comic book
>writer
>> who's every issue was gold.
>> To me even Claremonts' poorer works are better than much of what is out
>there
>> now.
>
>Such as? Kelly's X-men? Busiek's Avengers or Thunderbolts?
>
>
Nothing Kelly has done with the X-men has impressed me much but for the most
part I'm waiting for the end of the year when the teams are more stable. Then
I'll pay more attention to what he is doing. But X-men #75 wasn't all that
good.
Busiek's Avengers and Thunderbolts are great stuff, as good as Claremont's work
but Iron Man is a bit weak and I'm worried that his writting may slide with so
many books under his pen.


>I've read a lot of Claremonts work. Some of it has astonished me, and
>helped fire up my imagination. But the rest is just plain awful.
>
>Leor Blumenthal

I've never read anything written by Claremont that I would call awful but to
each his own.

Brian Fried

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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Claremont suggested somewhere that if he decides to bring back a certain
redhead, he'll do it. I took the implication as being that we can expect
to see Rachel in FF, maybe just as a cameo.

Ken Arromdee

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.98050...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,

Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>> >Characters with strong religious beliefs are depicted as old-fashioned,
>> >intolerant, or out of touch.
>> What, you mean like Nightcrawler or that preacher in the X-men/Brood
>> confrontation just before Inferno?
>No, like Reverend Craig, or the televangelist villain from "God Loves Man
>Kills". And despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
>did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never shows
>them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
>carols.

What about the time Nightcrawler goes to see a preacher because he's having
a crisis of faith when he meets the Beyonder, who seems to be as powerful as
God?
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank unto the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5

Samy Merchi

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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Ken Arromdee (arro...@www.inetnow.net) typed:
> Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:

> >despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
> >did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never shows
> >them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
> >carols.

> What about the time Nightcrawler goes to see a preacher because he's having
> a crisis of faith when he meets the Beyonder, who seems to be as powerful as
> God?

Kurt also went to confession in Excalibur #75's back-up story.

As to Kitty, why would other people than Christians have to be
portrayed as die-hard fanatics? Christianity isn't the only religion
who has the right to have people whose beliefs are less than ideal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- Samy Merchi 1998 sam...@utu.fi http://www.utu.fi/~samerc
"Reignfire is and has ALWAYS been Roberto Da Costa."
Roberto Da Costa aka Sunspot aka Reignfire, X-Force #43
"JFM absolves Roberto of being Reignfire, and heads'll roll."
Samy Merchi, April 18th 1998, anticipating X-Force #80

Leor Blumenthal

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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On 5 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:

> Ken Arromdee (arro...@www.inetnow.net) typed:
> > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>
> > >despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
> > >did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never shows
> > >them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
> > >carols.
>
> > What about the time Nightcrawler goes to see a preacher because he's having
> > a crisis of faith when he meets the Beyonder, who seems to be as powerful as
> > God?

> Kurt also went to confession in Excalibur #75's back-up story.

That wasn't a Claremont story. As for the Beyonder bit, Nightcrawler
encountered the Beyonder in the original Secret Wars, without any
problems. He also had no problems coping with Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, or
any of the rediculously powerful nuts that are a Claremont trademark. Why
should Kurt's faith only matter when it is called into question? Why
should religious people be constantly portrayed as backwards, primitive,
or naive?

> As to Kitty, why would other people than Christians have to be
> portrayed as die-hard fanatics? Christianity isn't the only religion
> who has the right to have people whose beliefs are less than ideal.

My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that
respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and
Canada (including Chris Claremont). But if Kitty is going to be singled
out as the "Jewish X-man" then I'd like to see her do more than wear a
Magen David. Other than the time she visited a Holocaust memorial with
Magneto, Claremont used her Jewishness as window dressing. She isn't
observant? Why not tell us why. Kurt skips confession? Make that the
focus of a story. Instead we get stereotypes that are as inaccurate as any
of the Anti-Mutant propaganda of Graydon Creed.

Leor Blumenthal


Leor Blumenthal

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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Here's your homework assignment:

Go find a copy of Superman/Wonderwoman:Whom Gods Destroy.

Read it.

Read it again.

Read it a third time.

If your brain doesn't melt from the awful art and incomprehensible plot,
then you're a stronger man than I.

Leor Blumenthal


Samy Merchi

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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Leor Blumenthal (lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) typed:

> On 5 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:
> > Ken Arromdee (arro...@www.inetnow.net) typed:
> > > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:

> > > >despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
> > > >did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never shows
> > > >them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
> > > >carols.

> > > What about the time Nightcrawler goes to see a preacher because he's having
> > > a crisis of faith when he meets the Beyonder, who seems to be as powerful as
> > > God?

> > Kurt also went to confession in Excalibur #75's back-up story.
>
> That wasn't a Claremont story. As for the Beyonder bit, Nightcrawler
> encountered the Beyonder in the original Secret Wars, without any
> problems.

That wasn't a Claremont story.

> He also had no problems coping with Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, or
> any of the rediculously powerful nuts that are a Claremont trademark.

He had very severe problems dealing with Beyonder when written by
Claremont, whose writing seems to be questioned here. Insisting on
ignoring that very touching scene to brace your argument is not very
productive.

> Why
> should Kurt's faith only matter when it is called into question?

Why does Arnold Schwarzenegger's fighting prowess (well, the
characters' that he plays, anyway) only matter when it is called into
question. The simple answer to your question is: A lot of things only
come out in fiction when they make for a good story. I know I wouldn't
buy stories full of Kurt going repeatedly to church to no effect. I
-would- buy stories about him having to fight for his faith instead of
just -having- his faith and being all happy go-lucky yay Catholic with
no problems. Who wants to read stories with no problems? Not me.

> Why
> should religious people be constantly portrayed as backwards, primitive,
> or naive?

I don't understand how you can see Kurt as backwards, primitive or
naive.

> > As to Kitty, why would other people than Christians have to be
> > portrayed as die-hard fanatics? Christianity isn't the only religion
> > who has the right to have people whose beliefs are less than ideal.
>
> My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that
> respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and
> Canada (including Chris Claremont). But if Kitty is going to be singled
> out as the "Jewish X-man" then I'd like to see her do more than wear a
> Magen David.

Um. Can you prove that she is singled out as 'the Jewish X-Man'? I
honestly don't see that being the case. She's the 'child prodigy
X-Man', if you insist on categorizing her with just one trait.

> Other than the time she visited a Holocaust memorial with
> Magneto, Claremont used her Jewishness as window dressing.

Other than that time, Claremont didn't -use- her Jewishness. He was
not required to deal with her Jewishness any more than he was required
to deal with, say, Roberto's Catholicism. And he didn't. Just like he
didn't deal with Roberto's Catholicism.

> She isn't
> observant? Why not tell us why. Kurt skips confession? Make that the
> focus of a story.

Read some indy non-superhero titles if you want stories like that. Me,
I'm perfectly happy with the stories being about superheroes, because
that is the genre I personally love. You are of course entitled to
your own taste.

> Instead we get stereotypes that are as inaccurate as any

^^^^^^^^^^


> of the Anti-Mutant propaganda of Graydon Creed.

> My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that


> respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and

^^^^^^^^^^
> Canada (including Chris Claremont).

So on one hand you're saying that Kitty's an accurate depiction, and
on the other hand you're complaining about inaccurate depiction? Is
this a correct interpretation?

Andyg3129

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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In article <199805040039...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
jmcgi...@aol.com (JMcgin1007) writes:

>>jmcgi...@aol.com (JMcgin1007) writes:
>>
>>>Never said everything he wrote was gold but can
>>>you name one comic book writer
>>>who's every issue was gold.
>>

>>Me.
>>
>>Andy, hasn't written a stinker yet!
>>
>>
>Sounds interesting. What have you written and where can I find it.
>

Um, well..... uh, ... um....
<psst, Hey Wheeler, distract him>

Look! A bloke with no trousers!
<legs it>

Andy, phew, that was a close one!


JMcgin1007

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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Oh well
Guess I'll just have to settle for Claremont.


JMcgin1007

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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I haven't been able to find it yet but I'll keep looking.
But unless Claremont drew it I won't hold the 'awful art' against him.


>Leor Blumenthal
>
>

AGr3691541

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980505...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:

>
>On 5 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:
>
>> Ken Arromdee (arro...@www.inetnow.net) typed:
>> > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> > >despite Nightcrawler being Catholic and Kitty Jewish, when
>> > >did Kurt go to confession, or Kitty light Sabbath candles? He never
>shows
>> > >them practice any rituals, except generic ones like singing Christmas
>> > >carols.
>>
>> > What about the time Nightcrawler goes to see a preacher because he's
>having
>> > a crisis of faith when he meets the Beyonder, who seems to be as powerful
>as
>> > God?
>
>> Kurt also went to confession in Excalibur #75's back-up story.
>
>That wasn't a Claremont story. As for the Beyonder bit, Nightcrawler
>encountered the Beyonder in the original Secret Wars, without any
>problems.

Also not a Claremont story.

> He also had no problems coping with Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, or

>any of the rediculously powerful nuts that are a Claremont trademark. Why

>should Kurt's faith only matter when it is called into question?

Because it's an interesting development. Nightcrawler reading the Bible for
half an hour would make a crap comic (although no worse than the current
X-men/Doctor Doom Annual)


> Why
>should religious people be constantly portrayed as backwards, primitive,
>or naive?

Erm..except for the fact that they're not.
The preacher in God Loves, Man Kills is an attack on TV evangelist style
religion. It plays on peoples fears, promotes intolerance and is led by
sanctimonous nutters. They exist in *this* World. I've seen TV Evangelists
promote hatred thru self-righteousness. Some religious people ARE backwards,
primitive and naive.

While Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde and the preacher in the Brood storyline all
show religious characters that are none of the above.

>
>> As to Kitty, why would other people than Christians have to be
>> portrayed as die-hard fanatics? Christianity isn't the only religion
>> who has the right to have people whose beliefs are less than ideal.
>
>My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that
>respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and
>Canada (including Chris Claremont). But if Kitty is going to be singled
>out as the "Jewish X-man"

I think the point is that she is not just the Jewish X-man. She is a complete
character of which her religion is only a part. A token 'Jewish' character
smacks of the religious small-mindedness you say you're against.

> then I'd like to see her do more than wear a

>Magen David. Other than the time she visited a Holocaust memorial with

>Magneto, Claremont used her Jewishness as window dressing.

Rubbish, and you can't back that up with any evidence. Kitty's Jewishness has
been used primarily when necessary (her anger at the Lightning Squad Shadowcat)
but most of the time it has no relavnace to the main storyline.

> She isn't
>observant? Why not tell us why. Kurt skips confession? Make that the
>focus of a story.

I'd rather hear his confession ;). The above may make good stories but you are
on completely dodgy ground if you say the absence of the above storylines is an
attack on religion.
Like you I'd like to know more about Kurts religion, especially in relation to
Wolverine's lack of faith (Claremont wrote some cracking dialogue between the
two on this very matter)

> Instead we get stereotypes that are as inaccurate as any

>of the Anti-Mutant propaganda of Graydon Creed.
>

Not from Claremont. There have intolerant 'christians' and tolerant christians,
which is a reflection on society.
You're argument that Claremont portrayed every Christian as intolerant doesn't
stand up to moment people can point to tolerant Christian characters.
I agree that Nightcrawlers faith should be explored more - but to say that if
it isn't explored that's an example of Anti-Christian propaganda worthy of
Graydon Creed then I stop agreeing with you and start running the other way....
Finally, if you object to Claremont portraying a TV evangelist badly...there
are bad TV evangelists out there, would you rather we pretended they don't
exist.

Lazy Line Painter Al


AGr3691541

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
to

In article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.980505145...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>, Leor
Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:

>
>Here's your homework assignment:
>
>Go find a copy of Superman/Wonderwoman:Whom Gods Destroy.
>
>Read it.
>
>Read it again.

Oh god no! Once is enough

>
>Read it a third time.
>
>If your brain doesn't melt from the awful art and incomprehensible plot,
>then you're a stronger man than I.
>

It really is awful. - not as bad as Lobdell's 'Last Morlock Story' but yep, you
prove your point...

Lazy Line Painter Al

Jade and Dan

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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> Such as? Kelly's X-men? Busiek's Avengers or Thunderbolts?

I dunno, Busiek's Avengers have been pretty disappointing so far.

--m4


Leor Blumenthal

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May 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/8/98
to


On 6 May 1998, AGr3691541 wrote:

> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980505...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,


> Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:
>
> >
> >On 5 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:
> >
> >> Ken Arromdee (arro...@www.inetnow.net) typed:
> >> > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>
> > He also had no problems coping with Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, or
> >any of the rediculously powerful nuts that are a Claremont trademark. Why
> >should Kurt's faith only matter when it is called into question?
>
> Because it's an interesting development. Nightcrawler reading the Bible for
> half an hour would make a crap comic (although no worse than the current
> X-men/Doctor Doom Annual)

I'm not asking for a comic where Nightcrawler reads the bible for the
whole issue and nothing happens. But what about having him sitting and
reading the bible before an enemy attacks, or going to church and
wondering whether wearing an image inducer is proper in a place of
worship.

> > Why
> >should religious people be constantly portrayed as backwards, primitive,
> >or naive?
>
> Erm..except for the fact that they're not.
> The preacher in God Loves, Man Kills is an attack on TV evangelist style
> religion. It plays on peoples fears, promotes intolerance and is led by
> sanctimonous nutters. They exist in *this* World. I've seen TV Evangelists
> promote hatred thru self-righteousness. Some religious people ARE backwards,
> primitive and naive.

I never said they were not. But they are far more prevalent in the
X-books than the tolerant, open minded ones.

> While Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde and the preacher in the Brood storyline all
> show religious characters that are none of the above.

Unfortunately they are exceptions, not the rule.

> >My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that
> >respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and
> >Canada (including Chris Claremont). But if Kitty is going to be singled
> >out as the "Jewish X-man"
>
> I think the point is that she is not just the Jewish X-man. She is a complete
> character of which her religion is only a part. A token 'Jewish' character
> smacks of the religious small-mindedness you say you're against.

I never said I wanted Kitty to be the "token Jew". What I said is that
her Jewishness is generally ignored, except on certain occasions when it
might be useful to compare the anti-mutant sentiments to the Holocaust,
or for a similar reason.

> > then I'd like to see her do more than wear a
> >Magen David. Other than the time she visited a Holocaust memorial with
> >Magneto, Claremont used her Jewishness as window dressing.
>
> Rubbish, and you can't back that up with any evidence. Kitty's Jewishness has
> been used primarily when necessary (her anger at the Lightning Squad
Shadowcat) but most of the time it has no relavnace to the main storyline.

If her Jewishness has no relevance to the story it shouldn't be
highlighted, but why should it be ignored? She used to wear a Magen
David. Why did she stop? Several of her teammates have deep religious
feelings. How does that make her feel? Show us a panel here, a caption
there. Be subtle.

> > She isn't
> >observant? Why not tell us why. Kurt skips confession? Make that the
> >focus of a story.
>
> I'd rather hear his confession ;). The above may make good stories but you are
> on completely dodgy ground if you say the absence of the above

storylines is an attack on religion.Like you I'd like to know more about

Kurts religion, especially in relation to Wolverine's lack of faith
(Claremont wrote some cracking dialogue between the two on this very
matter)
> > Instead we get stereotypes that are as inaccurate as any
> >of the Anti-Mutant propaganda of Graydon Creed.
>
> Not from Claremont. There have intolerant 'christians' and tolerant
christians, which is a reflection on society.
> You're argument that Claremont portrayed every Christian as intolerant doesn't
> stand up to moment people can point to tolerant Christian characters.
> I agree that Nightcrawlers faith should be explored more - but to say that if
> it isn't explored that's an example of Anti-Christian propaganda worthy of
> Graydon Creed then I stop agreeing with you and start running the
other way....

When was the last time that the X-books (or any mainstream comic for that
matter) handled religion as something other than an oppressive tool used
by narrow minded zealots?

> Finally, if you object to Claremont portraying a TV evangelist badly...there
> are bad TV evangelists out there, would you rather we pretended they don't
> exist.

I know they exist. I also know that there are people with religious
convictions who don't go around demanding that anyone who disagrees with
their beliefs be demonized.

Samy Merchi

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
to

Leor Blumenthal (lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) typed:

> On 6 May 1998, AGr3691541 wrote:
> > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:

> > > He also had no problems coping with Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, or
> > >any of the rediculously powerful nuts that are a Claremont trademark. Why
> > >should Kurt's faith only matter when it is called into question?
> >
> > Because it's an interesting development. Nightcrawler reading the Bible for
> > half an hour would make a crap comic (although no worse than the current
> > X-men/Doctor Doom Annual)
>
> I'm not asking for a comic where Nightcrawler reads the bible for the
> whole issue and nothing happens. But what about having him sitting and
> reading the bible before an enemy attacks, or going to church and
> wondering whether wearing an image inducer is proper in a place of
> worship.

You know, I don't understand why you accuse -Claremont- of not doing
this. Can you name one comics writer who -does- address issues like
this constantly? The truth is, it is a -standard- of comics writing
not to spotlight religion too much, because the comics companies are
very careful about offending religious communities by ending up giving
some religions more spotlight than others.

> > > Why
> > >should religious people be constantly portrayed as backwards, primitive,
> > >or naive?
> >
> > Erm..except for the fact that they're not.
> > The preacher in God Loves, Man Kills is an attack on TV evangelist style
> > religion. It plays on peoples fears, promotes intolerance and is led by
> > sanctimonous nutters. They exist in *this* World. I've seen TV Evangelists
> > promote hatred thru self-righteousness. Some religious people ARE backwards,
> > primitive and naive.
>
> I never said they were not. But they are far more prevalent in the
> X-books than the tolerant, open minded ones.

Let's see.

Tolerant, unbackwards, unprimitive, unnaive: Kurt, Reverend Conover,
Hank (though if we're just conversing Claremont he's out), Ororo,
Kitty, Dani, Forge, Amara (though she came from a primitive culture,
she was a genius, definitely not backwards or naive), Lilandra.

Total: 9.

Intolerant, backwards, primitive, or naive: Rahne, Reverend Stryker.

Total: 2.

Additions? You'll have to add eight backwards people to validate your
point, or invalidate eight of the people I gave.

> > While Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde and the preacher in the Brood storyline all
> > show religious characters that are none of the above.
>
> Unfortunately they are exceptions, not the rule.

See above.

> > >My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that
> > >respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and
> > >Canada (including Chris Claremont). But if Kitty is going to be singled
> > >out as the "Jewish X-man"
> >
> > I think the point is that she is not just the Jewish X-man. She is a complete
> > character of which her religion is only a part. A token 'Jewish' character
> > smacks of the religious small-mindedness you say you're against.
>
> I never said I wanted Kitty to be the "token Jew". What I said is that
> her Jewishness is generally ignored, except on certain occasions when it
> might be useful to compare the anti-mutant sentiments to the Holocaust,
> or for a similar reason.

i.e. her religion is only examined when it is relevant to the plot.
See the first point -- EVERYONE in comics does this, not just
Claremont.

> > > then I'd like to see her do more than wear a
> > >Magen David. Other than the time she visited a Holocaust memorial with
> > >Magneto, Claremont used her Jewishness as window dressing.
> >
> > Rubbish, and you can't back that up with any evidence. Kitty's Jewishness has
> > been used primarily when necessary (her anger at the Lightning Squad
> > Shadowcat) but most of the time it has no relavnace to the main
> > storyline.
>
> If her Jewishness has no relevance to the story it shouldn't be
> highlighted, but why should it be ignored? She used to wear a Magen
> David. Why did she stop? Several of her teammates have deep religious
> feelings. How does that make her feel? Show us a panel here, a caption
> there. Be subtle.

You're correct here. I'd really like to know why she doesn't wear one
anymore. (Though I think she does, it's just crappy art.) Still, your
argument keeps constantly bouncing between complaining about
Claremont, and then complaining about recent developments. I would
assume that by now this debate has moved onto comics in general, not
just blaming Claremont of these characteristics. Would I be correct to
assume that?

> When was the last time that the X-books (or any mainstream comic for that
> matter) handled religion as something other than an oppressive tool used
> by narrow minded zealots?

X-Force #58. Siryn prays over the seemingly dead bodies of X-Force.

> > Finally, if you object to Claremont portraying a TV evangelist badly...there
> > are bad TV evangelists out there, would you rather we pretended they don't
> > exist.
>
> I know they exist. I also know that there are people with religious
> convictions who don't go around demanding that anyone who disagrees with
> their beliefs be demonized.

This argument also is based on your assumption that the well-portrayed
religious people are a minority. Prove this.

AGr3691541

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980508...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:

>On 6 May 1998, AGr3691541 wrote:
>
>> In article
><Pine.SOL.3.91.980505...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
>> Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> writes:
>>
>> >
>> >On 5 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ken Arromdee (arro...@www.inetnow.net) typed:
>> >> > Leor Blumenthal <lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> > He also had no problems coping with Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, or
>> >any of the rediculously powerful nuts that are a Claremont trademark. Why
>> >should Kurt's faith only matter when it is called into question?
>>
>> Because it's an interesting development. Nightcrawler reading the Bible for
>> half an hour would make a crap comic (although no worse than the current
>> X-men/Doctor Doom Annual)
>
>I'm not asking for a comic where Nightcrawler reads the bible for the
>whole issue and nothing happens. But what about having him sitting and
>reading the bible before an enemy attacks, or going to church and
>wondering whether wearing an image inducer is proper in a place of
>worship.

The last idea sounds interesting and would be worth reading, but if a Chris
chooses not to write that scenario, it is not a sign of intolerance towards
religion, just that he has better stories to write.



>
>> > Why
>> >should religious people be constantly portrayed as backwards, primitive,
>> >or naive?
>>
>> Erm..except for the fact that they're not.
>> The preacher in God Loves, Man Kills is an attack on TV evangelist style
>> religion. It plays on peoples fears, promotes intolerance and is led by
>> sanctimonous nutters. They exist in *this* World. I've seen TV Evangelists
>> promote hatred thru self-righteousness. Some religious people ARE
>backwards,
>> primitive and naive.
>
>I never said they were not. But they are far more prevalent in the
>X-books than the tolerant, open minded ones.

But it's not just religious people. Homo Sapiens in general get a raw deal. The
X-men operate in a society prejudiced against mutants, therefore the majority
of churchgoers would be prejudiced just as many churches in White South Africa,
Nazi Germany and the British Empire subscribed to the prejudices of the society
they were in.

>
>> While Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde and the preacher in the Brood storyline all
>> show religious characters that are none of the above.
>
>Unfortunately they are exceptions, not the rule.

I would agree if Chris Claremont had written legions of tyrannical Christian
mobs - but he didn't. Several of the intolerant villains have had religious
motivation, just as several of the *good guys* had.

I can't think of more than a couple of Religious Intolerant people in
Claremont's run, which seems to make the sides even.

>
>> >My problem isn't with Kitty's observance (or lack thereof). In that
>> >respect she accurately reflects the bulk of the Jews in America and
>> >Canada (including Chris Claremont). But if Kitty is going to be singled
>> >out as the "Jewish X-man"
>>
>> I think the point is that she is not just the Jewish X-man. She is a
>complete
>> character of which her religion is only a part. A token 'Jewish' character
>> smacks of the religious small-mindedness you say you're against.
>
>I never said I wanted Kitty to be the "token Jew". What I said is that
>her Jewishness is generally ignored, except on certain occasions when it
>might be useful to compare the anti-mutant sentiments to the Holocaust,
>or for a similar reason.

Her 'Jewishness' is ignored because it is irrelevant to the story. If Claremont
had tried to *force* Jewish references in, say the Shi'Ar Brood storyline, it
would have stuck out a mile or be limited to horrible cliches, like Kitty
saying 'Oi Vey' when surprised. It would have led to her being labeled the
Jewish X-men, which is something neither of us want.

>
>> > then I'd like to see her do more than wear a
>> >Magen David. Other than the time she visited a Holocaust memorial with
>> >Magneto, Claremont used her Jewishness as window dressing.
>>
>> Rubbish, and you can't back that up with any evidence. Kitty's Jewishness
>has
>> been used primarily when necessary (her anger at the Lightning Squad
>Shadowcat) but most of the time it has no relavnace to the main storyline.
>
>If her Jewishness has no relevance to the story it shouldn't be
>highlighted, but why should it be ignored? She used to wear a Magen
>David. Why did she stop? Several of her teammates have deep religious
>feelings. How does that make her feel? Show us a panel here, a caption
>there. Be subtle.

But Claremont was subtle. Nightcrawler is a character with very strong
principles who has learnt to live in a World were he is seen as a monster. We
also know he's a Christian and that his beliefs are the foundation for his
character. But if he said stuff like 'As a Christian...' or 'Well, X-men,
according to the Bible we should...' that would be unsubtle (and
cringe-inducing).

But again, if Claremont did not make an issue of their religion every issue
does not make his portrayel of religious characters inaccurate or offensive.

This is hardly relevant to the arguement. The fact is that Claremont did not
handle religion solely as an oppresive tool of narrow minded zealots.

>
>> Finally, if you object to Claremont portraying a TV evangelist
>badly...there
>> are bad TV evangelists out there, would you rather we pretended they don't
>> exist.
>
>I know they exist. I also know that there are people with religious
>convictions who don't go around demanding that anyone who disagrees with
>their beliefs be demonized.

And they exist in Claremonts Xbooks, but the X-men exist in a world of
prejudice - and any writer would be a fool to ignore that Religion has been at
the root of many peoples prejudices for centuries.

Lazy Line Painter Al

Kelly Paul Graham

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
to


Brian Fried <bfr...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote in article
<6inc8c$8k1$4...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>...


> Claremont suggested somewhere that if he decides to bring back a certain
> redhead, he'll do it. I took the implication as being that we can expect
> to see Rachel in FF, maybe just as a cameo.
>

Rachel is, among other things (it seems), a "Temporal
Anamoly"/Chronological-
Teleporter. If she is...
I'll say about Rachel Summers what I wanted to say about Illyana
Rasputina before her reported reappearance: You can't keep a good (or bad
:) ) Time-Traveler down ! ESPECIALLY if they are BORN that way !!

Kelly Paul Graham.

Kate Martin

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

"Kelly Paul Graham" <kgr...@wt.net> writes:

> Rachel is, among other things (it seems), a "Temporal
> Anamoly"/Chronological-
> Teleporter. If she is...
> I'll say about Rachel Summers what I wanted to say about Illyana
> Rasputina before her reported reappearance: You can't keep a good (or bad
> :) ) Time-Traveler down ! ESPECIALLY if they are BORN that way !!

in other words, "Mutant time traveling demon sorceresses DON'T DIE."

(Isn't that the phrase, people?)

If we get Claremont's Rachel back, in any form, I'll do a cartwheel. Honest.

--
Kate Martin jul...@haven.boston.ma.us jul...@haven.org
"When action grows uprofitable, gather information; when information
grows unprofitable, sleep." -- Ursula K. LeGuin
"Reality is the leading cause of stress for those in touch with it." -- JW

Soleil Lapierre

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

Kate Martin hit these random keys:

> "Kelly Paul Graham" <kgr...@wt.net> writes:

> > I'll say about Rachel Summers what I wanted to say about Illyana
> > Rasputina before her reported reappearance: You can't keep a good (or bad
> > :) ) Time-Traveler down ! ESPECIALLY if they are BORN that way !!

> in other words, "Mutant time traveling demon sorceresses DON'T DIE."
> (Isn't that the phrase, people?)

I think it's actually "never die", but we get the idea. :)

--
/* Soleil "Ra" Lapierre, Co-Maintainer of the Magik Timeline:
* http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~lapierrs/comics/
*
* Nothing hurts like pain.
*/

Leor Blumenthal

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
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On 9 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:

> Leor Blumenthal (lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) typed:
> > On 6 May 1998, AGr3691541 wrote:
>
> You know, I don't understand why you accuse -Claremont- of not doing
> this. Can you name one comics writer who -does- address issues like
> this constantly? The truth is, it is a -standard- of comics writing
> not to spotlight religion too much, because the comics companies are
> very careful about offending religious communities by ending up giving
> some religions more spotlight than others.

I was originally complaining about Claremont's tendencies of ignoring
character's religious beliefs except in major stories, and of treating
certain religious characters (notably clergy) as intolerant. In hindsight,
Claremont was following the comic book norms of tiptoeing around
religion. However I have noticed that when he did have characters discuss
religion, or express religious beliefs, he rarely used actual ritual, or
organized religion. I'm not sure if that's also part of the tiptoeing or
if it's for another reason.

> > I never said I wanted Kitty to be the "token Jew". What I said is that
> > her Jewishness is generally ignored, except on certain occasions when it
> > might be useful to compare the anti-mutant sentiments to the Holocaust,
> > or for a similar reason.
>
> i.e. her religion is only examined when it is relevant to the plot.
> See the first point -- EVERYONE in comics does this, not just
> Claremont.

The other problem I have (which I may not have stated clearly in previous
posts) has to do with Kitty's lack of religious identity. I take it as a
given that Kitty is non-observant. Her parents are non-observant, and she
grew up in a secular environment. However, she originally had a strong
Jewish identity. She wore a Magen David, and went with Magneto to a
memorial for Holocaust victims. But somewhere along the line she just
stopped wearing the Magen David, and she dropped her Jewish identity like
a hot potato. It started after Excalibur started, and since then she has
mentioned that she is Jewish all of twice in the last three years (that I
remember): Once to tell off the Uncreated, and once in a Hanukah story
for a Christmas Special.

> > If her Jewishness has no relevance to the story it shouldn't be
> > highlighted, but why should it be ignored? She used to wear a Magen
> > David. Why did she stop? Several of her teammates have deep religious
> > feelings. How does that make her feel? Show us a panel here, a caption
> > there. Be subtle.
>
> You're correct here. I'd really like to know why she doesn't wear one
> anymore. (Though I think she does, it's just crappy art.) Still, your
> argument keeps constantly bouncing between complaining about
> Claremont, and then complaining about recent developments. I would
> assume that by now this debate has moved onto comics in general, not
> just blaming Claremont of these characteristics. Would I be correct to
> assume that?

Yeah.

> > When was the last time that the X-books (or any mainstream comic for that
> > matter) handled religion as something other than an oppressive tool used
> > by narrow minded zealots?
>
> X-Force #58. Siryn prays over the seemingly dead bodies of X-Force.

Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
portrayals of religion in comics?


Leor Blumenthal

Tim Elf

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
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Leor Blumenthal wrote:

>Samy Merchi wrote:

>> > When was the last time that the X-books (or any mainstream comic for that
>> > matter) handled religion as something other than an oppressive tool used
>> > by narrow minded zealots?
>>
>> X-Force #58. Siryn prays over the seemingly dead bodies of X-Force.
>
>Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
>portrayals of religion in comics?

Negative: virtually anything by Warren Ellis. :)
Rev. Craig, from Chris Claremont and Warren Ellis (which, to be fair, was at
least a consistent character)

Positive: Glory Day Ministries, the preacher and his wife tied into the Brood
saga, introduced by Claremont, but really developed by John Ostrander in the
X-Men/Brood LS. An excellent example of a postive, fair portrayal of
Christianity in comic books.

Tim
------
"Jesus has now been celebrated about 300 years; having done nothing in his
lifetime worthy of fame, unless anyone thinks it a very great work to heal lame
and blind people and exorcise demoniacs..." Julian the Apostate, Roman Emperor
361-363

Samy Merchi

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

Leor Blumenthal (lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) typed:

> On 9 May 1998, Samy Merchi wrote:

> I was originally complaining about Claremont's tendencies of ignoring
> character's religious beliefs except in major stories, and of treating
> certain religious characters (notably clergy) as intolerant.

Reverend Craig and Reverend Stryker vs. Father Bowen and Reverend
Conover. 50-50 ratio. I'd say he was fairly balanced at using clergy
for both good and evil.

> In hindsight,
> Claremont was following the comic book norms of tiptoeing around
> religion.

Yes.

> However I have noticed that when he did have characters discuss
> religion, or express religious beliefs, he rarely used actual ritual, or
> organized religion. I'm not sure if that's also part of the tiptoeing or
> if it's for another reason.

I believe it's a part of tiptoeing. I can't recall any other writer
using these kinds of things either. If someone can recall examples of
this being demonstrated in comics, I'd be interested to hear.

> The other problem I have (which I may not have stated clearly in previous
> posts) has to do with Kitty's lack of religious identity. I take it as a
> given that Kitty is non-observant. Her parents are non-observant, and she
> grew up in a secular environment.

Yes. At least in Finland, not all people who are nominally Christians
(i.e. enrolled in the church) particularly believe in God. I'd believe
the same to be true of Jews. So I'd think maybe this is true in
America as well. Even if you're nominally a Jew, you don't necessarily
have to have the strongest beliefs in the world. However, you are
taking issue with Kitty not being a devout Jew, whereas we have for
example Kurt being a very devout Catholic. Therefore, I would assume
that you don't have the biggest problem with religion in general, but
rather the fact that the only Jewish X-person is not particularly
religious. What can I say? That's the way the cookie crumbles.
Claremont made some religious people more religious, and some less
religious. This is realistic. I am sorry that it ended up being Kitty
who was one of the less religious ones, but I doubt Claremont intended
this as any kind of a slur towards Jews.

> However, she originally had a strong
> Jewish identity. She wore a Magen David, and went with Magneto to a
> memorial for Holocaust victims.

These being just about the only two things one would know she was a
Jew from. I remember when I read UXM #199, I was surprised to learn
that Kitty was a Jew. It had never caught my eye before. Aside from
UXM #199, I think the meeting with Lightning Squad in Excalibur was
the only other scene which really spotlighted the fact that she was a
Jew. I -really- would not say that she had a 'strong' Jewish identity,
when I had for years been missing the fact that she even was a Jew in
the first place.

> But somewhere along the line she just
> stopped wearing the Magen David, and she dropped her Jewish identity like
> a hot potato.

The Magen David was not drawn in in every single issue up to #199, and
it wasn't drawn in in every single issue after that. It might or it
might not be drawn in less frequently these days, I haven't compiled
statistics, but is that really such a major point? Maybe she's wearing
it under her shirt or something? Just because it's not drawn hanging
-over- her shirt doesn't mean it's not there.

> It started after Excalibur started, and since then she has
> mentioned that she is Jewish all of twice in the last three years (that I
> remember): Once to tell off the Uncreated, and once in a Hanukah story
> for a Christmas Special.

Which is more often than most characters mention their religion.
(Aside from people like Ororo or Amara who constantly use their
religion in their gasp-phrases.) Also note that it is more often than
most -atheistic- characters mention their -atheism-. Atheism is not
supported any more than any religion. The whole issue is simply
avoided in books.

> > > When was the last time that the X-books (or any mainstream comic for that
> > > matter) handled religion as something other than an oppressive tool used
> > > by narrow minded zealots?
> >
> > X-Force #58. Siryn prays over the seemingly dead bodies of X-Force.
>

> Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
> portrayals of religion in comics?

They manage to put in a good praying scene every now and then, maybe
once in one or two years. Get back to me on this, I'm a bit tired
right now to rummage thru my memory. I might as well state the one
hovering in my head a lot, even though Rev Conover's been mentioned
several times: He pushed a Brood embryo into submission with the power
of God.

Eric L Bailey

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
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On 11 May 1998 20:59:58 GMT, tim...@aol.com (Tim Elf) wrote:

>Leor Blumenthal wrote:
>
>>Samy Merchi wrote:
>
>>> > When was the last time that the X-books (or any mainstream comic for that
>>> > matter) handled religion as something other than an oppressive tool used
>>> > by narrow minded zealots?
>>>
>>> X-Force #58. Siryn prays over the seemingly dead bodies of X-Force.
>>
>>Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
>>portrayals of religion in comics?
>

>Negative: virtually anything by Warren Ellis. :)
>Rev. Craig, from Chris Claremont and Warren Ellis (which, to be fair, was at
>least a consistent character)
>
>Positive: Glory Day Ministries, the preacher and his wife tied into the Brood
>saga, introduced by Claremont, but really developed by John Ostrander in the
>X-Men/Brood LS. An excellent example of a postive, fair portrayal of
>Christianity in comic books.

Also, it was Kurt's faith that turned the tide against Dracula.

E

Randy Lander

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98
to

On 6 May 1998 23:28:31 GMT, "Jade and Dan"
<jade-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> Such as? Kelly's X-men? Busiek's Avengers or Thunderbolts?
>
>I dunno, Busiek's Avengers have been pretty disappointing so far.

On Bizarro World, perhaps. :)


The above are the opinions of Randy Lander. Had they been
the biblical truth, your bushes would be on fire.
---------------------------------------------------------
rwla...@io.com <*> http://www.io.com/~rwlander

Peter Likidis

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98
to

On 6 May 1998 23:28:31 GMT, "Jade and Dan"
<jade-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> Such as? Kelly's X-men? Busiek's Avengers or Thunderbolts?
>
>I dunno, Busiek's Avengers have been pretty disappointing so far.

You are reading V3 not V2 right... Busiek.. not that Liefeld guy...
Peter Likidis
SunGard EBS Asia Pacific
plik...@sias.com.a
"Why do they nuclear test when they already know it works?" - Frank Zappa
to email add a u to the end

Kenny Abernathy

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98
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Eric L Bailey wrote in message
<4D006C390A051989.A5A73E0F...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...


We've also got Firebird (the superhero formerly known as Espirita), who is
very devoutly Catholic. She's a good example of living your faith.

Kenny


Johan Lundstrom

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98
to

On 11 May 1998 21:56:00 GMT, sam...@utu.fi (Samy Merchi) wrote:

>Leor Blumenthal (lblu...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) typed:

>> In hindsight,


>> Claremont was following the comic book norms of tiptoeing around
>> religion.
>
>Yes.

One of the reasons I loved New Mutants #81 was the interesting and
un-comics-like discussion of religion. You're basically correct,
though.

[...]


>> It started after Excalibur started, and since then she has
>> mentioned that she is Jewish all of twice in the last three years (that I
>> remember): Once to tell off the Uncreated, and once in a Hanukah story
>> for a Christmas Special.
>
>Which is more often than most characters mention their religion.
>(Aside from people like Ororo or Amara who constantly use their
>religion in their gasp-phrases.) Also note that it is more often than
>most -atheistic- characters mention their -atheism-. Atheism is not
>supported any more than any religion. The whole issue is simply
>avoided in books.

Right. Wolverine and Magneto are by far the most outspoken atheists,
and even they rarely mention it.

[...]


>They manage to put in a good praying scene every now and then, maybe
>once in one or two years. Get back to me on this, I'm a bit tired
>right now to rummage thru my memory. I might as well state the one
>hovering in my head a lot, even though Rev Conover's been mentioned
>several times: He pushed a Brood embryo into submission with the power
>of God.

We can't be sure; the scene was deliberately ambigous. It could have
been a miracle or just Wolverine's healing factor finally catching up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se>

"I'm so bad, so GOOD!"
Mesmero, Classic X-Men 17

Samy Merchi

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Johan Lundstrom (jo...@algonet.se) typed:

> On 11 May 1998 21:56:00 GMT, sam...@utu.fi (Samy Merchi) wrote:

> >They manage to put in a good praying scene every now and then, maybe
> >once in one or two years. Get back to me on this, I'm a bit tired
> >right now to rummage thru my memory. I might as well state the one
> >hovering in my head a lot, even though Rev Conover's been mentioned
> >several times: He pushed a Brood embryo into submission with the power
> >of God.

> We can't be sure; the scene was deliberately ambigous. It could have


> been a miracle or just Wolverine's healing factor finally catching up.

Yes, well, it's possible to read it that way. Personally, I always
read it as Claremont attributing power to God, but not wanting to be
obvious about it and therefore possibly offend people of other
religions by implying that the Christian God was the real one.

Bigbear

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Johan Lundstrom wrote in message <35582e0...@news.algonet.se>...

<snip>

>>They manage to put in a good praying scene every now and then, maybe
>>once in one or two years. Get back to me on this, I'm a bit tired
>>right now to rummage thru my memory. I might as well state the one
>>hovering in my head a lot, even though Rev Conover's been mentioned
>>several times: He pushed a Brood embryo into submission with the power
>>of God.
>

>We can't be sure; the scene was deliberately ambigous. It could have
>been a miracle or just Wolverine's healing factor finally catching up.


I just reread that issue the other night and I definately got the impression
that Logan's healing factor caught up and fought off the Brood embryo. His
healing factor was already working on fighting it off before he confronted
the Rev. Then he went all Brood-y for a bit before his healing factor kicked
into overdrive and got rid of the foul thing. When the Rev thought it was a
power from god I don't think Logan said anything otherwise because he didn't
want to take anything away the guy's faith.

That was a very good issue IMO. He was supposed to go work towards easing
mutant/human relations. He was definately going to be a high profile muntant
rights human. Was he ever heard from again? It would nice to have one of the
books touch on that. They could say that he's been an active member of
Chuck's underground or something.

Bigbear

Samy Merchi

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Bigbear (bill-gcc@!badspam!erols.com) typed:

> I just reread that issue the other night and I definately got the impression
> that Logan's healing factor caught up and fought off the Brood embryo.

Well, that's your impression. Like I said, it -can- be interpreted
both ways. I prefer the other interpretation. ;)

> That was a very good issue IMO. He was supposed to go work towards easing
> mutant/human relations. He was definately going to be a high profile muntant
> rights human. Was he ever heard from again? It would nice to have one of the
> books touch on that. They could say that he's been an active member of
> Chuck's underground or something.

Rev Conover and his wife have subsequently appeared in John
Ostrander's X-Men vs. Brood 2-issue LS.

Jade and Dan

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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> You are reading V3 not V2 right... Busiek.. not that Liefeld guy...
> Peter Likidis

Yes, indeed. Busiek, Perez, Al Vey on Inks, terrible first storyline(Morgan
Le Fay... blah...). And, as a New Warriors fan, they way he writes Justice
and Firestar is downright insulting.

--m4

Jade and Dan

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

> On Bizarro World, perhaps. :)

Sorry, I just really don't like Marvel's version of Morgan Le Fay. Its like
they shotgun wed that terrible "Excalibur" movie with a bad Kirby rip-off.
If the plot goes towards something I'm interested in, I'll start buying it.
But the first three issues had too many characters I cared nothing about
doing too many damn things on too many panels per page. But, now that he's
pared down the cast, I'll approach it with an open mind.

--m4


Andyg3129

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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sam...@utu.fi (Samy Merchi) writes:

>> However I have noticed that when he did have characters discuss
>> religion, or express religious beliefs, he rarely used actual ritual, or
>> organized religion. I'm not sure if that's also part of the tiptoeing or
>> if it's for another reason.
>
>I believe it's a part of tiptoeing. I can't recall any other writer
>using these kinds of things either. If someone can recall examples of
>this being demonstrated in comics, I'd be interested to hear.
>

Cloak & Dagger.

Andy, too knackered to write any more posts.
See you tomorrow.

Tim Elf

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Samy Merchi wrote:

>Bigbear wrote:
>> That was a very good issue IMO. He was supposed to go work towards easing
>> mutant/human relations. He was definately going to be a high profile
>muntant
>> rights human. Was he ever heard from again? It would nice to have one of
>the
>> books touch on that. They could say that he's been an active member of
>> Chuck's underground or something.
>
>Rev Conover and his wife have subsequently appeared in John
>Ostrander's X-Men vs. Brood 2-issue LS.

Ostrander also brought him back for several issues in the short Punisher
series. He was continuing his outspoken support for mutants and the "new" MLF
was after him. SHIELD asked Castle to protect him. It's quite an interesting
conflict of characters there.

Samy Merchi

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Andyg3129 (andy...@aol.com) typed:
> sam...@utu.fi (Samy Merchi) writes:

> >I believe it's a part of tiptoeing. I can't recall any other writer
> >using these kinds of things either. If someone can recall examples of
> >this being demonstrated in comics, I'd be interested to hear.
>

> Cloak & Dagger.

Intriguing. Which run / issues by whom would be good to check out for
this?

Andy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Jade and Dan wrote:

> Yes, indeed. Busiek, Perez, Al Vey on Inks, terrible first storyline(Morgan
> Le Fay... blah...). And, as a New Warriors fan, they way he writes Justice
> and Firestar is downright insulting.


Interesting. You're the only New Warriors fan I've seen being so
critical of Busiek's interpretation of Justice and Firestar.

Oh well. Just a minor observation :)


Andy

Jamie Coville

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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On Thu, 14 May 1998 07:49:32 GMT, alas...@hyperlink.com wrote:

>In article <199805112059...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,


> tim...@aol.com (Tim Elf) wrote:
>
>> >Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
>> >portrayals of religion in comics?
>

>Preacher, Hellblazer, Books of Magic, Sandman, Invisibles, Swamp Thing,
>Hitman. Just off the top of my head. It does rather depend on what you
>define as religion.
>
>Alasdair

Night Crawler in some old X-men issues.


Regards, | The History of Superhero Comic Books!
Jamie Coville | http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8580/

alas...@hyperlink.com

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
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> >Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
> >portrayals of religion in comics?

Preacher, Hellblazer, Books of Magic, Sandman, Invisibles, Swamp Thing,
Hitman. Just off the top of my head. It does rather depend on what you
define as religion.

Alasdair

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Kate Martin

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
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Andy <andys...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> Jade and Dan wrote:

> > Yes, indeed. Busiek, Perez, Al Vey on Inks, terrible first storyline(Morgan
> > Le Fay... blah...). And, as a New Warriors fan, they way he writes Justice
> > and Firestar is downright insulting.

Huh. Thing is, I was a New Warriors fan (am, whatever), and while I think
Justice was occasionally out of it (mostly in his snarling at Rage), I
also think that Justice /would/ have acted that way, most of the time.
Especially wrt Cap, and wrt wanting to be an Avenger.

m4 also wrote, in another post:

>Sorry, I just really don't like Marvel's version of Morgan Le Fay. Its like
>they shotgun wed that terrible "Excalibur" movie with a bad Kirby rip-off.

Yeah, well, I hate that too, but it's an established Marvel presentation.
At least you didn't read Avengers 235 or so, with Al Milgrom art. Anyway,
while I don't like her much, it's also true that the Arthurian legends are
so... imprecise that just about any characterization other than treacly
goodness'll fit.

> Interesting. You're the only New Warriors fan I've seen being so
> critical of Busiek's interpretation of Justice and Firestar.

To be fair, i've seen others.


-kate, not netcopping movie threads. What
has the world come to.

Eric L Bailey

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

On Thu, 14 May 1998 07:49:32 GMT, alas...@hyperlink.com wrote:

>In article <199805112059...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> tim...@aol.com (Tim Elf) wrote:
>
>> >Alright. Does anyone have any other instances of positive (or negative)
>> >portrayals of religion in comics?
>
>Preacher, Hellblazer, Books of Magic, Sandman, Invisibles, Swamp Thing,
>Hitman. Just off the top of my head. It does rather depend on what you
>define as religion.

PAD's Supergirl would be a positive one...

E

Randy Lander

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
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On Wed, 13 May 1998 20:21:07 -0500, Andy <andys...@mail.utexas.edu>
wrote:

>Jade and Dan wrote:
>
>> Yes, indeed. Busiek, Perez, Al Vey on Inks, terrible first storyline(Morgan
>> Le Fay... blah...). And, as a New Warriors fan, they way he writes Justice
>> and Firestar is downright insulting.
>
>

>Interesting. You're the only New Warriors fan I've seen being so
>critical of Busiek's interpretation of Justice and Firestar.

Not me. Plenty of people who like the book have complained that Vance
seems a bit too "Gee Whiz" with the Avengers after being a big shot
with the Warriors.

It's a valid complaint, but I have no problem with it, as it's easily
explained in terms of "New Warriors = AAA Baseball" "Avengers=Major
League Baseball."

Vance just moved up to the majors, something he's been dreaming of
ever since he got powers, really. A little enthusiasm is to be
expected.

Thomas Wilde

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98