Jean
Rutog89
hole she, Binary, created? If so, exactly how powerful was Jean?
mah...@my-deja.com
little vague. IIRC, Jean was operating on power levels close to those
of the Phoenix. Me, I'm glad that this has been basically ignored, I
like the X-Men to be as low-powered as possible.
- Nathan Mahney -
The Uncanny X-Muse - http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/2902
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Amos Keppler
>
> In article <19990529212343...@ng-cm1.aol.com>,
> rut...@aol.com (Rutog89) wrote:
> > Does anyone know of that Unlimited issue where Jean saved Binary from
> a white
> > hole she, Binary, created? If so, exactly how powerful was Jean?
> >
> It was X-Men Unlimited #13 for sure, but my memory of the issue is a
> little vague. IIRC, Jean was operating on power levels close to those
> of the Phoenix. Me, I'm glad that this has been basically ignored, I
> like the X-Men to be as low-powered as possible.
>
It has been ignored by someone, not Stephen Seagle.
Jean is Phoenix and she has the power within her to destroy the
universe. That's what I call celestial level.
Hopefully, they'll show her at the increased power level again very
soon.
Phoenix was right from the start intended to have powers of cosmic
levels.
Amos
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RENOVATIAN AND EXPANSION 1999-05-27
< My virtual, wilderness community address is: >
< http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/6010/ >
< My address at midnight: >
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Feel the heat of Firewind
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Rutog89
Ororo?
Rutog89
pressures at the core of a star? Can Jean's field withstand the core of a sun?
Rutog89
Fey!
Rutog89 wrote in message <19990530230549...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
>What is the difference between a white hole and a star?
Aren't white holes supposed to be the other end of a black hole?
BlakGard
A white hole is basically the exact opposite of a black hole. Theoretically, as
one has never been seen, white holes spew energy at the same rate as a black
hole sucks energy.
>So this issue placed Jean at a higher level of power than
>Storm or even 147 Ororo?
Yes.
>Was the pressures at the core of Binary's white hole in
>this issue equal to the pressures at the core of a star?
Imagine a white hole as being a star, twice the size of our sun, on steroids...
and then cram all that mass into the size of your living room. That is the kind
of pressure that was at the core of Binary's white hole.
>Can Jean's field withstand the core of a sun?
Indubitably. If we are to believe she did the things she did in this issue,
which we should because events that are currently taking place in the live of
Carol Danvers are directly related to it, then Jean could do 1000 push ups with
her power while withstanding the core of any sun.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
BlakGard
>
>black hole?
Theoretically, yes.
Amos Keppler
>
> >What is the difference between a white hole and a star?
>
> one has never been seen, white holes spew energy at the same rate as a black
> hole sucks energy.
>
> >So this issue placed Jean at a higher level of power than
> >Storm or even 147 Ororo?
>
> Yes.
>
> >Was the pressures at the core of Binary's white hole in
> >this issue equal to the pressures at the core of a star?
>
> Imagine a white hole as being a star, twice the size of our sun, on steroids...
> and then cram all that mass into the size of your living room. That is the kind
> of pressure that was at the core of Binary's white hole.
>
> >Can Jean's field withstand the core of a sun?
>
> Indubitably. If we are to believe she did the things she did in this issue,
> which we should because events that are currently taking place in the live of
> Carol Danvers are directly related to it, then Jean could do 1000 push ups with
> her power while withstanding the core of any sun.
>
Jean, as we have seen, can destroy a star with ease.
Rutog89
The Phoenix Force can. Jean may (big maybe if you ask me) be able to rival the
Phoenix's tp/tk power levels someday, however, she does not have cosmic power.
John Bianco
Amos Keppler wrote in message <3756E9...@hl.telia.no>...
>
>
>
The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
is not the Pheonix.
Amos Keppler
>
> > Jean, as we have seen, can destroy a star with ease.
>
> Phoenix's tp/tk power levels someday, however, she does not have cosmic power.
You distinguish between Jean and Phoenix, I don't. To me they've always
been the same "person".
Amos Keppler
> >
> >
> >
>
> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
> is not the Pheonix.
In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
Reverend30
Phoenix never actually contained the Phoenix force within her, as was explained
in the whole storyline leading up to X-Factor #1. She took the name Phoenix
much later, as I understand it.
BILL
>Rutog89 wrote:
>>
>> > Jean, as we have seen, can destroy a star with ease.
>>
>> The Phoenix Force can. Jean may (big maybe if you ask me) be able to rival
>the
>> Phoenix's tp/tk power levels someday, however, she does not have cosmic
>power.
>
> You distinguish between Jean and Phoenix, I don't. To me they've always
>been the same "person".
>
> Amos
---------------------------------------------
The above opinions are not opinions--they are fact. Anything I say is right,
and anything opposing my viewpoint is wrong.
"Everyone's got opinions, yours just sucks." --Nate
Amos Keppler
>
> But they're categorically not the same person. The Jean Grey we know now as
> Phoenix never actually contained the Phoenix force within her, as was explained
> in the whole storyline leading up to X-Factor #1. She took the name Phoenix
> much later, as I understand it.
>
That's one interpretation and one I vehementely disagree with. It was
introduced by byrned out john in his Fantastic Four and used for a
while. Since then however, many things have happened to make the
pendelum swing back again.
I, for one, would completely discard byrned out john's explanation...
Amos
>
> >Rutog89 wrote:
> >>
> >> > Jean, as we have seen, can destroy a star with ease.
> >>
> >> The Phoenix Force can. Jean may (big maybe if you ask me) be able to rival
> >the
> >> Phoenix's tp/tk power levels someday, however, she does not have cosmic
> >power.
> >
> > You distinguish between Jean and Phoenix, I don't. To me they've always
> >been the same "person".
> >
--
Paul O'Brien
<asterdi...@hl.telia.no> writes
>
> That's one interpretation and one I vehementely disagree with. It was
>introduced by byrned out john in his Fantastic Four and used for a
>while. Since then however, many things have happened to make the
>pendelum swing back again.
I'm not going to get dragged into this debate again (suffice to say
I think you're clearly wrong, I believe from their recent interviews
that the editors agree with me, and it certainly seems from Marvel's
website that the official position is on my side as well), but that's
no reason to let a factual inaccuracy go uncorrected.
Byrne didn't come up with the explanation (Kurt Busiek did), not did
he write the early issues of X-Factor. Byrne did indeed write the
issue, of another title entirely, which was co-opted to contain the
explanation, but it was not his idea and it was a trailer for a series
which he had no involvement with.
Paul O'Brien
pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk
I love living somewhere that hates Pat Robertson.
Seryndptie
truly take on the Phoenix. When the Phoenix tookover her body while her mind
healed, she nearly killed Galactus, but let him live. The Phoenix then left
Rachel to return to its natural state because its precense fed off the sea of
unborn, but it left the power in Rachel. However, Rachel was not as strong
anymore.
Leah
Alleigh
<asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
>> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
>> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
>> is not the Pheonix.
>
> In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
>
And IMO Maddie wasn't really a clone and Jean is a pod-person - but
that doesn't make it a Marvel truth. Jean is NOT the Phoenix - no
matter what you think.
Yoda - "Fear leads anger...anger leads to hate...
hate leads to suffering.
<remove the REMOVETHIS to reply by e-mail>
Rutog89
>
I don't remember seeing issues like this.
Rutog89
>Phoenix never actually contained the Phoenix force within her, as was
>explained
>in the whole storyline leading up to X-Factor #1. She took the name Phoenix
>much later, as I understand it.
True.
Brian C. Saunders
<asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
>John Bianco wrote:
>> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
>> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
>> is not the Pheonix.
>
> In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
>
> Amos
While I will agree that Jean and the Phoenix *were* one and the same,
up to the point of her death as Dark Phoenix(despite the fact that her
human body still existed in Jamica Bay), I do not agree she has the
same level of power now. She has the potential, granted, but I don't
believe that it has yet been demonstrated to be actualized. To attain
that potential, I would argue that she would have to have active
contact with the Phoenix Force, and that does not currently appear to
be the case.
Brian, seems to know much, probably knows little.
William Roberts
>Leah
I agree with the people disregarding totally the Excalibur run
concerning Phoenix.
That (if) the current editors claim Jean isn't Phoenix, that's well
in style with their general lack of style. Stephen Seagal certainly
meant to bring her back to full power. Chris Claremont also, in
Wolverine #125, then some of the brass didn't like that, and it got
scrapped along with many other great story developments.
Jean is and will ever be Phoenix.
WR
*********************************
GROWTH AND REBIRTH 1999-05-27
* Walk The Long Walk *
* http://home.c2i.net/stranger/ *
* We all do! *
*********************************
William Roberts
>True.
Nope. That's one interpretation, but so wrong, so wrong. Jean has
always been Phoenix, even if she denied it for a time. One could argue
that there never were a Phoenix *force*, only Jean being one with the
universe, and because of that, sharing the power of creation.
William Roberts
>On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:46:48 GMT, Amos Keppler
><asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
>>> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
>>> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
>>> is not the Pheonix.
>>
>> In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
>>
>And IMO Maddie wasn't really a clone and Jean is a pod-person - but
>that doesn't make it a Marvel truth. Jean is NOT the Phoenix - no
>matter what you think.
That's your opinion and you of course free to it, but I agree that
she IS. There are just numerous hints to that effect spread throughout
the last 15 years of storytelling.
Besides Apocalypse is believing it, and he's damn darn convincing...
William Roberts
>On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:46:48 GMT, Amos Keppler
><asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
>>John Bianco wrote:
>>> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
>>> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
>>> is not the Pheonix.
>>
>> In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
>>
>> Amos
>While I will agree that Jean and the Phoenix *were* one and the same,
>up to the point of her death as Dark Phoenix(despite the fact that her
>human body still existed in Jamica Bay), I do not agree she has the
>same level of power now. She has the potential, granted, but I don't
>believe that it has yet been demonstrated to be actualized. To attain
>that potential, I would argue that she would have to have active
>contact with the Phoenix Force, and that does not currently appear to
>be the case.
My take on it is that she always has been Phoenix, an Onslaught kind
of mutant. I choose to interpret it as it never was any "Phoenix
force", merely a display of Jean ultimate Power. There has been some
claims that Jean wasn't in her body when first displaying the Power,
but it doesn't have to be correct. It wouldn't take *any* spin
doctoring at all to show that everything is a part of some great
Marvel Mystery or something. ;)
BlakGard
>Jean Grey we know now as Phoenix never actually
>contained the Phoenix force within her, as was
>explained in the whole storyline leading up to
>X-Factor #1. She took the name Phoenix much later,
>as I understand it.
Meaning... nothing.
BlakGard
hesitation to embrace this idea. It would actually make her responsible for the
countless deaths that Dark Phoenix was responsible for. However, this could
easily be explained away. If Phoenix were the embodiment of Jean's psionic
energy that has existed in the past, present, and future, the Jean would hardly
be responsible for Dark Phoenix's acts. This because, as I have explained
earlier, Phoenix could very easily be Jean's future self which has come back in
time.
Still in all, enough hints and innuendo are present not only to suggest but
basically prove beyond all doubt that Jean is Phoenix. Attempts to deny this
are purely attempts to deny the facts as we know them.
Terrafamilia
William Roberts wrote:
> seryn...@aol.com (Seryndptie) wrote:
>
> >If you want to go by issue explanations, Rachel Summers was the only person to
> >truly take on the Phoenix. When the Phoenix tookover her body while her mind
> >healed, she nearly killed Galactus, but let him live. The Phoenix then left
> >Rachel to return to its natural state because its precense fed off the sea of
> >unborn, but it left the power in Rachel. However, Rachel was not as strong
> >anymore.
>
> >Leah
>
> I agree with the people disregarding totally the Excalibur run
> concerning Phoenix.
I *liked* the Excalibur Phoenix/anti-Phoenix/Necron/Rachel/Feron stuff.
Besides, the *real* Jean Grey is still dead.
At least in my own private Marvel Universe.
Ciao,
Terrafamilia
Amos Keppler
>
> While I have always felt that Jean was Phoenix, I can understand the editors'
> hesitation to embrace this idea. It would actually make her responsible for the
> countless deaths that Dark Phoenix was responsible for. However, this could
> easily be explained away. If Phoenix were the embodiment of Jean's psionic
> energy that has existed in the past, present, and future, the Jean would hardly
> be responsible for Dark Phoenix's acts. This because, as I have explained
> earlier, Phoenix could very easily be Jean's future self which has come back in
> time.
>
> Still in all, enough hints and innuendo are present not only to suggest but
> basically prove beyond all doubt that Jean is Phoenix. Attempts to deny this
> are purely attempts to deny the facts as we know them.
>
Indeed it is. :) And it's a great, controversial issue. That's why the
current editors won't touch it, stearing consciously and unconsciously?
away from anything controversial (and interesting)... &%#@*¤
Amos
Amos Keppler
In mine she never died.
I partly liked the storyline in Excalibur, too, but the Phoenix
connection destroyed it.
Reverend30
Phoenix force for a time? And while I'm sure we are all loath to recall this,
didn't the Phoenix force make an appearance in the Malibu Ultraverse,
inhabiting the body of someone named Foxfire or some such nonsense?
BILL
>rut...@aol.com (Rutog89) wrote:
>
>>>But they're categorically not the same person. The Jean Grey we know now
>as
>>>Phoenix never actually contained the Phoenix force within her, as was
>>>explained
>>>in the whole storyline leading up to X-Factor #1. She took the name
>Phoenix
>>>much later, as I understand it.
>
>>True.
>
> Nope. That's one interpretation, but so wrong, so wrong. Jean has
>always been Phoenix, even if she denied it for a time. One could argue
>that there never were a Phoenix *force*, only Jean being one with the
>universe, and because of that, sharing the power of creation.
>
> WR
---------------------------------------------
Brian C. Saunders
Roberts) wrote:
>hu...@conninc.com (Brian C. Saunders) wrote:
>
> My take on it is that she always has been Phoenix, an Onslaught kind
>of mutant. I choose to interpret it as it never was any "Phoenix
>force", merely a display of Jean ultimate Power. There has been some
>claims that Jean wasn't in her body when first displaying the Power,
>but it doesn't have to be correct. It wouldn't take *any* spin
>doctoring at all to show that everything is a part of some great
>Marvel Mystery or something. ;)
Then you would refute the events detailed on panel by CLASSIC X-MEN #8
in what way?
BlakGard
>Didn't she carry the Phoenix force for a time?
According to my theory, at least, Phoenix is a psionic avatar created by Jean.
This avatar was initially created by Jean when her powers first surfaced (as
Phoenix told Jean during Inferno, "I have been with you since the beginning" --
paraphrased). Afterwards, Jean kept the Phoenix avatar, but it was deeply
submerged within her subconscious, along with a few mental blocks provided by
Xavier. The Phoenix avatar was next seen in UXM #101, when Jean was saved from
the shuttle crash. However, according to my theory, this Phoenix avatar has
existed for countless millennia.
As we have seen, telepaths of great power can time-travel. There is no doubt
that Jean could do this, as other telepaths have (ie, Rachel and Legion),
although she has yet to do so. At some point in the future, probably upon
Jean's physical death, her Phoenix avatar leaves her body and travels to other
people and other planets. After millennia of doing this, the avatar forgets its
humanity. It is this avatar that saves Jean from the shuttle crash. Since
Jean's death at this time would cause a temporal paradox that would kill the
avatar, the avatar acts more or less to save itself than Jean -- though both
are one and the same.
This avatar would later be influenced by Mastermind, turned into the Hellfire
Club's Black Queen, and because over the millennia it has lost much of its
humanity, becomes Dark Phoenix, eventually destroying a sun and the plant
people of the planet circling it (this part of the theory effectively relieves
Jean of any and all guilt for the situation, as she has not committed the
attrocity -- yet).
Eventually, peoples from different star systems and galaxies, come together to
demand retribution for this act, which culminates in the trial and the "death"
of the avatar on the moon. Just before its "death," it relearns its humanity.
But how does one kill a psionic avatar? Certainly one needs to be more thorough
than the Shi'ar were on the moon (even as the events happened in the books,
this was not the last we would see of the Phoenix). Being almost utterly
destroyed, the Phoenix sought refuge in the bodies of Jean Grey (who was still
in her cocoon under Jamaica Bay), Madelyne Pryor (who was in Sinister's lab),
and finally Rachel (who was apparently floating around even before her first
appearance in this timeline).
I still maintain that Rachel recieved a portion (ONLY) of the Phoenix's power
from the Shi'ar crystal that she found in the Grey's home. After this, she may
have taken the name Phoenix, but she still was not the real deal. She did have
enough of its power to level Galactus (what is 10% of infinity?).
The next appearance we have is during Inferno. It is during this appearance
that Phoenix tells Jean that it has been with her since the beginning, and then
merges Jean's, its own, and Madelyne's psyches into Jean. The avatar would not
be seen afterwards, until its appearance during the Judgment War, in which it
gives her the power to stave off the menace of the Celestials.
After this we have Apocalypse's little innuendo that she contains the power of
the Phoenix (during the End Game story).
>And while I'm sure we are all loath to recall this, didn't the
>Phoenix force make an appearance in the Malibu Ultraverse,
>inhabiting the body of someone named Foxfire or some such
>nonsense?
Yes, and frankly, this is where I think the Phoenix resides to this day.
Although I was not a fan of the limited series, there has to be something in
the plot of this book that I can fit into this theory (and frankly, I am sick
of Marvel not using the Malibu characters).
Sensing that Jean was close to awakening to her true power (ie, becoming the
Phoenix in her own right), the avatar left her.
Later, shortly before Onslaught, we have Jean assisting Xavier with the
resusitation of Emma Frost. During this, Xavier is quite shocked by Jean's
power, which surpasses something that even he can do.
And even later, during Onslaught, we have Onslaught alluding to Jean's
potential of becoming as powerful as the Phoenix avatar. As we all know, the
Phoenix avatar has unlimited power. How could a lowly human, if even a mutant,
possess such extraordinary power?
It is this very question, along with the hints and innuendos mentioned above,
that bring me to this theory. Frankly, I do not believe someone could attain
the power levels of the Phoenix without being the Phoenix. Mix this with the
hints and innuendos, and...
Alleigh
Roberts) wrote:
>rog...@airmail.net (Alleigh) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:46:48 GMT, Amos Keppler
>><asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
>
>>>> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in the
>>>> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean Grey
>>>> is not the Pheonix.
>>>
>>> In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
>>>
>
>>And IMO Maddie wasn't really a clone and Jean is a pod-person - but
>>that doesn't make it a Marvel truth. Jean is NOT the Phoenix - no
>>matter what you think.
>
> That's your opinion and you of course free to it, but I agree that
>she IS. There are just numerous hints to that effect spread throughout
>the last 15 years of storytelling.
> Besides Apocalypse is believing it, and he's damn darn convincing...
She IS NOT THE PHOENIX, she never was <thanks to Kurt Busiek's idea>
and until Marvel actually comes out with the line "I really was
Phoenix and I killed billions" then Marvel has her NOT as Phoenix. I
think it would be better if she had beene Phoenix <the only time Jean
was interesting> but unfortunately she wasn't according to Marvel.
Rutog89
>Jean.
Well, like you said, it isn't comic book. Jean is not the Phoenix until she
hits these power levels. That's what I have to say. Until she does, the Jean
fans have nothing but speculation and hopes.
Amos Keppler
We have waited 20 years now. It's about time something is done...
Therefore the interuption of Stephen Seagals run, becomes ten times
more IRRITATING!
Amos
Amos Keppler
Forget Busiek's silly notion. It was just a ploy to bring Jean back
untarnished, and shouldn't even be considered as toilet paper anymore.
Jean should be tarnished. Every human being is. And that was what
making her Phoenix did, turning the saint into a living, bloody human
being.
Rutog89
>that potential, I would argue that she would have to have active
>contact with the Phoenix Force, and that does not currently appear to
>be the case.
I agree.
Amos Keppler
>
> On Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:15:25 GMT, strangerk...@c2i.net (William
> Roberts) wrote:
>
> >hu...@conninc.com (Brian C. Saunders) wrote:
>
> >
> > My take on it is that she always has been Phoenix, an Onslaught kind
> >of mutant. I choose to interpret it as it never was any "Phoenix
> >force", merely a display of Jean ultimate Power. There has been some
> >claims that Jean wasn't in her body when first displaying the Power,
> >but it doesn't have to be correct. It wouldn't take *any* spin
> >doctoring at all to show that everything is a part of some great
> >Marvel Mystery or something. ;)
>
> Then you would refute the events detailed on panel by CLASSIC X-MEN #8
> in what way?
>
No one need to refute them. Me? I merely accept the irony of Jean's
jest as fact. Phoenix is indeed a figment of Jean's imagination... :)
Amos
--
Rutog89
>and until Marvel actually comes out with the line "I really was
>Phoenix and I killed billions"
Yes. Otherwise it is nothing but a bunch of people hoping and wishing that
Jean is Phoenix. In the story a or b, whichever version you take, there was an
outside cosmic entity involved. Jean did not hit these levels by practicing or
exploring her powers. The only reason she was so powerful was because of the
cosmic entity that was ancient before Jean's birth. This is coming directly
from the comics. All of this other stuff about Jean's mind creating the
Phoenix and stuff just blows my mind. This goes against what has been
established in the comics. It has no comic basis. Therefore, it has no
creditability until an issue retconnes it.
Rutog89
>untarnished, and shouldn't even be considered as toilet paper anymore.
Well, it's continuity now. Therefore, we can't forget it.
Kalel18
>established in the comics. It has no comic basis. Therefore, it has no
>creditability until an issue retconnes it.
Oh sorta like Ororo parting seas with her powers but not ever doing in the the
comics. Like that right? >; P
Alexander
NyteKrwlr
clone. All this stuff is merely speculation and has no actual facts to support
it (this psionic avatar stuff)
If what you say is true, then what I say is true, Jean died on that moon years
ago, the phoenix force left her body and created a new jean on the bottom of
the bay. Hence Jean Grey is dead and that thing attached to the hip of Scott
Summers is a clone.
Rachel Summers is the one true Phoenix, her momma couldn't handle it ;-)
Craig
Fuzzy Elf Lover!
"I miss.....I need.......your laughter"
Ororo Munroe stands over her fallen comrade Kurt Wagner.
my web site
http://members.aol.com/NyteKrwlr//index.html
" Honey, we talked about that shirt!" Karen from "Will and Grace
Mike Hawco
Brian C. Saunders wrote in message <3759fa73...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>
>>> The Pheonix Force can, Jean while powerful in trems of psi, is not in
the
>>> leauge with anyone like Thanos or even Thor in terms of raw power. Jean
Grey
>>> is not the Pheonix.
>>
>> In my opinion she is, has ever been, and will always be.
>>
>
>While I will agree that Jean and the Phoenix *were* one and the same,
>up to the point of her death as Dark Phoenix(despite the fact that her
>human body still existed in Jamica Bay), I do not agree she has the
>same level of power now. She has the potential, granted, but I don't
>that potential, I would argue that she would have to have active
>contact with the Phoenix Force, and that does not currently appear to
>be the case.
>
>
Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean to her proper body
(Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix which means that for the last 9 years the
phoenix has been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of Jean and
it is now starting to exert itself more.
MH
Alleigh
wrote:
>
>>
>>Brian, seems to know much, probably knows little.
>
>Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean to her proper body
>(Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix which means that for the last 9 years the
>phoenix has been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of Jean and
>it is now starting to exert itself more.
Then how the heck do you explain that the Phoenix was with Rachel. I
am not sure comparatively <issue number wise> when the Phoenix left
Rachel with all the powers - but it was obvious Jean hated the Phoenix
Force. As I have said Jean is NOT the Phoenix <thanks to the brilliant
morons who decided Jean had to come back and couldn't of been a
murderer of billions - but they let Marrow on the team.>
Kalel18
had with Death in Classic X-Men #43 1990 Written By Chris Claremont. This is
the issue "Jean or the Phoenix " Whoever you belieave is which died.
Jean: You saying this was All Pre-Ordained? What are we Toys for your Celestial
Amusement?
Death: I'm saying that SHE is the Embodiment of Life, Itself Embodied by
Passion--Messy and Chaotic and Agonizing as that can be as I represent order
and structure and entropy. And she could not bear to see her handeiwork undone.
She required a form--an AVATAR--through which to act. And who better than a
spirit--A fire, If you wil,l carved most closely from her own.
Jean: Fine. But When the Job was Done, why couldn't she have just gone back
where she came from and let me Be?!
Death: You are where she came from. Don't you yet Understand? When First you
met, You called her a figment of your imagination. That wasn't far wrong. We
are concepts, Jean, Defining ourselves in terms you can most easily comprehend.
The Phoenix is neither being nor entity (As you perceive such things)... It is
a FORCE. The SUm and Substance of all that lives.
Death: Your unique gift is to be the one capable of wielding that force. It
came to you Jean-- as it will in time to your children--because like the sword
Excalibur was to King Arthur... It is YOURS BY RIGHT.
Jean: Whether I want it or not?
Death: If you hadn't wanted it you wouldn't have called. If it hadn't been
meant for you...It wouldn't have answered.
Jean: Too bad. I'd hoped--selfishly--there were two of us, that I'd been
possesed by some frightful creature I could Blame for what happened.
Death: Passion is a two edged bladed. With the finest of lines between the
light and the shadow. But when the Scales lifted the balance came down on the
side of love.
Jean: Cold comfort I'm afraid.
Death A hard lesson, aye, but your learning.
Jean Who pays the price while I'm in School? I swore no more Blood on my hands.
I mean that!
Death: Your life, Your power your responsibility. Your choices all the way.
Jean: To where? Salvation damnation which? What's next for me where do I go
from here?!
Death: Wherever--whatever--comes naturally.
Jean: I can hear again in my mind! The Life-Force the cosmos--sings throught
me like music! The Beauty--The Glory--It's Indescribable! I'm scared.
Death: ITs a Hard Path before you. No question. Risks as Great--Temptations
abounding--as the rewards are awful. One Feeds Desire, the other layers on
responsibility. No way to know the difference till you're at the crossroads.
Jean: And if I screw Up?
Death: Learn. GRow. Do Better.
Jean: I won't forget you friend. Or our Talk. This time, trust me, Things'll
turn out right. Take Care!
Death (Talking to himself): You Too. Poor wee thing. IF only it were that easy.
Every Creature born--even a baby Phoenix-- Reaches a moment where it has to
strike out on its own. The Sadness being that the mosaic of life contains more
pieces than you know. Things you can't be told, but have to discover for
yourself, no matter the cost. I'm truly sorry,. child, you'll remember neither
words, nor me. But you will learn. THE HARD WAY.
Alexander
Mike Hawco
Alleigh wrote in message
<8F4703BC41885E26.33C1B6F4...@lp.airnews.net>...
Like I said it could have been a part of the phoenix force (the same part
that appeared during inferno - at which time the phoenix force was still
with rachel, hence it would seem the Phoenix force can be in two places at
one time, according to some posts time is supposed to be meaningless to the
phoenix force after all). So maybe the full Phoenix force is now with jean
and is starting to show itself - boosting of her powers. Hey its just a
thought and I personally think its hogwash but it's something to think
about.
oh ya I personally think that issue of unlimited with Binary was totally
out of character with what Jean was shown as being capable of at the time. I
mean some time after that issue when Jean and Scott arive in Alaska Scotts
worried about jean overexerting herself moving a few tons of snow. It's not
consistant and I pretty much ignore that issue of unlimited - it's hogwash.
MH
Rutog89
>out of character with what Jean was shown as being capable of at the time. I
>mean some time after that issue when Jean and Scott arive in Alaska Scotts
>worried about jean overexerting herself moving a few tons of snow. It's not
>consistant and I pretty much ignore that issue of unlimited - it's hogwash.
Yes. Very true.
Paul O'Brien
<rever...@aol.com> writes
>If Jean was always Phoenix, how do you explain Rachel? Didn't she carry the
>Phoenix force for a time?
Rachel isn't Jean's daughter. Leaving aside one rogue account in an
issue of Excalibur (an unreliable flashback by a character who later
admitted to having misled the team), her timeline is supposed to be
the one where the Dark Phoenix Saga ended as originally intended,
with Phoenix I returning to Earth and having kids. So she's not
Jean's daughter at all, she's Phoenix's.
Paul O'Brien
pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk
I love living somewhere that hates Pat Robertson.
Trafiquant de drogue de Designers
> Forget Busiek's silly notion. It was just a ploy to bring Jean back
> untarnished, and shouldn't even be considered as toilet paper anymore.
> making her Phoenix did, turning the saint into a living, bloody human
> being.
Jean can still be tarnished, as JeanPhoenix was using the moral basis of Jean.
So it's like Jean taught JeanPhoenix on what to do. She shouldn't get _blame_
but she should realize that it was her "examples" that did the deed.
--
Consul de Designers,
[Jameson Stalanthas Yu, Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners]
[Link at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~jamesony -X- ICQ 10208399]
[Joint Educational Project http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/JEP]
[Mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human]
Trafiquant de drogue de Designers
> >If Jean was always Phoenix, how do you explain Rachel?
> >Didn't she carry the Phoenix force for a time?
> Phoenix told Jean during Inferno, "I have been with you since the beginning" --
> paraphrased).
Of which I take to mean that she was watching, but not created of. But that's
not my arguement here, I'll never change my interpretation.
> As we have seen, telepaths of great power can time-travel. There is no doubt
> that Jean could do this, as other telepaths have (ie, Rachel and Legion),
> although she has yet to do so.
This has no basis in the comics, that telepaths can timetravel. It's a totally
different, separate power.
((snipped the time travel))
> I still maintain that Rachel recieved a portion (ONLY) of the Phoenix's power
> from the Shi'ar crystal that she found in the Grey's home. After this, she may
> have taken the name Phoenix, but she still was not the real deal. She did have
> enough of its power to level Galactus (what is 10% of infinity?).
She got it from the crystal, and only a portion, okay, I can accept that. But my
take is that PF realized that full on intergration with a human is too
traumatizing and so she gives folks access, not merging with them. That is what
Rachael had.
> After this we have Apocalypse's little innuendo that she contains the power of
> the Phoenix (during the End Game story).
Sure, power levels, but not the embodiment of it, not anymore.
> Sensing that Jean was close to awakening to her true power (ie, becoming the
> Phoenix in her own right), the avatar left her.
So it is separate and not created by her, but did come _to_ her.
> And even later, during Onslaught, we have Onslaught alluding to Jean's
> potential of becoming as powerful as the Phoenix avatar. As we all know, the
> Phoenix avatar has unlimited power. How could a lowly human, if even a mutant,
> possess such extraordinary power?
PF is limited by the "unborn life" which may or may not have a cap. It probably
doesn't, after all, "Hyperstorm" is unlimited, right? Though PF is limited by
whatever code it limits itself by. I think that the "unborn life" comes to play
when she was merged and doing extraordinary stuff.
> It is this very question, along with the hints and innuendos mentioned above,
> that bring me to this theory. Frankly, I do not believe someone could attain
> the power levels of the Phoenix without being the Phoenix. Mix this with the
> hints and innuendos, and...
I have no problem with PF giving JeanPhoenix the high levels, and that after PF
left, Jean still retaining the memory and the capability to reach those levels
again. So to me, yes, she will have those ungodly high power levels, should she
choose, but it will not be tied to the PF source.
Paul O'Brien
<Mi...@simscape.ca> writes
>
>Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean to her proper body
>(Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix which means that for the last 9 years the
>phoenix has been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of Jean and
>it is now starting to exert itself more.
Highly unlikely. Phoenix makes subsequent appearances in Excalibur.
Of course, as a conceptual entity there is no reason why Phoenix
can't manifest in two places at once; but Phoenix's behaviour in
Excalibur strongly suggests that it has no other hosts but Rachel
at that time.
Paul O'Brien
<kal...@aol.com> writes
>
>Death: You are where she came from. Don't you yet Understand? When First you
>met, You called her a figment of your imagination. That wasn't far wrong. We
>are concepts, Jean, Defining ourselves in terms you can most easily comprehend.
> The Phoenix is neither being nor entity (As you perceive such things)... It is
>a FORCE. The SUm and Substance of all that lives.
A point which is commonly overlooked by proponents of the Excalibur-
never-happened school of thought is that Death is quite plainly
saying the Phoenix-force is a being/character/call-it-what-you-will
of the same nature as Death itself. This clearly aligns Phoenix as
being one of the Marvel Universe's many anthropomorphic conceptual
entities, along with Death, Eternity, the In-Betweener and many
others.
Despite the metaphysical fudging about the precise nature of what
Death is, one thing is perfectly clear from this scene: Death is a
character in its own right. It hold opinions, it engages in
conversation, it acts of its own volition. It may be the
personification of a force of the universe, it may in fact even BE a
force of the universe, but there is no denying that by any sensible
standards, Marvel's Death is a character in its own right - even within
the logic of this story.
And if Death is a character with its own personality (which it plainly
is), and Phoenix is a being like it, Phoenix is a seperate character.
A seperate character to whom Jean may be linked, yes, but a seperate
character with a mind of its own for all that.
Rutog89
No. Ororo parting seas would be in character with some of the power levels she
has reached in the comics with her own natural abilities (no cosmic entity
interference or machines to enhance her powers). Any who could affect weather
across the globe, engulf an entire continent with a blizzard, or hit
near-infinite elemental power (all of these things done in the comics) could
understandably part seas with the winds. With Jean, without the Phoenix stuff,
hasn't demonstrated anything anywhere that would put her on those levels. Ann
Nocenti is the one who established that with Ororo. She was editor for part or
Claremont's run, plus she did a lot of the X-MEN Classics. She knows how
powerful Ororo is. When she made this comment, she was fully aware of the
levels of power Storm has reached in the comics.
Kalel18
>hasn't demonstrated anything anywhere that would put her on those levels.
But she has. We already established that. Even if you don't like it. You can
chose to ignore it if you want too just like we can chose to ignore something
that hasn't happened in the regular X-Books meaning she can't do it here.
Sorry. Again if you want to use those books as in contunity we can use what
if's which in a way are in contunity since they did happen. Might not be on the
regular earth but they happened on a different yet VERY simiular earth. Now
which way is it gonna be?
Alexander
Rutog89
>if's which in a way are in contunity since they did happen. Might not be on
>the
>regular earth but they happened on a different yet VERY simiular earth. Now
>which way is it gonna be?
If the What if's don't bring characters down which they usually do.
Kalel18
You know I never get what you mean by bring the characters down. What does that
mean?
Alexander
Rutog89
Jean Grey cannot time travel, she can't consume stars, she can't tap into
cosmic power, she isn't immortal, she has limits. What I am saying about Jean
is that she cannot hit these power levels until Marvel comes out with a
storyline saying that Jean=Phoenix. As for Ororo, she has without a doubt
demonstrated power levels in the comics where she could understandably part
seas. This is not the case for Jean. That is why there is so much debate
about this. The levels of power Ororo has hit in the comics, she did it on her
own. There is no room for misunderstanding her power level. Jean is
surrounded by a bunch of what if's, I wants (from the fans), hopes, and a bunch
of fan theories that have not been verified in the issues. Jean has never on
her own power surpassed Xavier or even rivaled him. Magneto is perhaps more
powerful in his sphere of power than Xavier is in his. I have seen Ororo
surpass both of them, Xavier and Magneto.
>Again if you want to use those books as in contunity we can use what
>if's which in a way are in contunity since they did happen.
Actually, no. I have seen characters brought down like crazy in what if's
because it has no bearings on the continuous titles.
Again, I repeat. Jean's power levels are far lower than Ororo's. If you look
at the character, when has it ever been stated that Jean has near-infinite
powers? This has been stated with Storm in the comics. When has Jean ever
done something on a global scale. Ororo created violent storms across the
globe before. Jean always struggles with holding up planes for a short time
(seconds, and perhaps minutes on a good day). This is her consistent power
level. Ororo has picked up 200 tons ocean liners before and, in a DC/Marvel
crossover, Ororo blasted off the top of a mountain with a bolt of lightning.
As the THOUSANDS OF TONS of rocks fell, she used the winds to arrange the rock
avalanche to cage a legion of para-demons without harming a single one.
Rutog89
>that
>mean?
Here's an example: I seem to remember Jean shoving Juggernaut out of a window
(I don't even think it was 10 stories high) and he died from the fall or
something like that in a What if. I realize powers spike and all, but what I
call a brought down is when the writers bring the characters so low in power or
will that it becomes out-of character or it is lower than the standard power
level for the character. You see this especially with Ororo. I am tired of
Storm being written down, shoved off to the side, her powers being
"adjusted"from storyline to storyline, getting limits on her abilities that she
had clearly surpassed or matched in the past, etc. just to keep her from
stealing the show in the issues. I mean, I read issues with Ororo
single-handedly making Dr. Doom beat feet (I have never seen anyone pull this),
picking up ocean liners weighing hundreds of tons, creating devestating weather
across the globe, and many other things. When was the last time she has done
any of these things?!? OK, now I'm ranting.
Kalel18
>look
>at the character, when has it ever been stated that Jean has near-infinite
>powers?
It doesn't have to be stated. In that one issue of X-Men Unlimitied it was
shown that Jean surpassed Ororo. Plane and simple. While Ororo did something on
a planet wide scale Jean did it on a Universal scale. It happened deal with it.
If it was stated in an X-Book that Jean is more powerful than Ororo you still
wouldn't be happy.
Alexander
Alasdair Watson
In article <7jegml$p3d$3...@romeo.dax.net>, William Roberts
<strangerk...@c2i.net> writes
>
> That's your opinion and you of course free to it, but I agree that
>she IS. There are just numerous hints to that effect spread throughout
>the last 15 years of storytelling.
Where? In the name of fuckery, where? Where is there such compelling
evidence [1] *for* Jean being Phoenix that people will choose to
disregard statements by creative teams, editors, X-Factor and all the
comics that surrounded Jean's revival, a large chunk of Excalibur, and
so on....
Just becuase you don't agree with them doesn't make them eny less cannon
and in continuity! I don't agree with Jean not being dead on the moon,
but I don't run around screaming that she's dead all the time, because I
can see that the massive weight of the evidence suggest that she is, in
fact, not dead. Likewise, the massive weight of the evidence suggests
that Jean is *not* Phoenix, and *never was*.
Find me a panel in which Jean says "I have the power of the Phoenix
Force, that same entity that Rachel had a connection to" and yeah, I'll
start [2] to buy it. Using the same name and wearing the costume
doesn't count!
> Besides Apocalypse is believing it, and he's damn darn convincing...
Yes. The Genocidal Loon is of course, a really, really, reliable
source. Yes.
[1] Not dodgy circumstantial stuff like the visuals an artist used to
represent her powers, or her costume, or her use of the code-name.
Something concrete that she did that she could not have done without it.
[2] And bitch and moan about disregard of continuity.
--
Alasdair Watson
Rutog89
>shown that Jean surpassed Ororo.
>Jean did it on a Universal scale.
No she didn't. Not on her own powers. The thing that was done on a universal
level was done by Jean by utilizing Binary's powers with tp (not impressive
since mind controling is a standard tp function). Her own abilities could not
deal with the White Hole. Not hardly.
>If it was stated in an X-Book that Jean is more powerful than Ororo you still
>wouldn't be happy.
I would go with it if Ororo was brought back up to power levels and the issue
stated it with Jean demonstrating higher levels of power.
Rutog89
>evidence [1] *for* Jean being Phoenix that people will choose to
>disregard statements by creative teams, editors, X-Factor and all the
>comics that surrounded Jean's revival, a large chunk of Excalibur, and
Exactly!
>Just becuase you don't agree with them doesn't make them eny less cannon
>and in continuity!
True! After all, it's Marve who writes the comics. If they choose not to ever
have Jean at Phoenix powers, it's their choice.
>Find me a panel in which Jean says "I have the power of the Phoenix
>Force, that same entity that Rachel had a connection to"
And then have her demonstrate these power levels. I don't want to read her
having the PF power levels and then see her struggleing to pick up planes.
Then the issue of her having that kind of power loses creditability. It's
kind of like when they say she is second to Xavier and then constantly having
her functioning and straining at much lower levels than other psi's lower than
Xavier.
Amos Keppler
>
> >Forget Busiek's silly notion. It was just a ploy to bring Jean back
> >untarnished, and shouldn't even be considered as toilet paper anymore.
>
Many things are ignored by the creators. This should be one of them.
Besides, there are many stories countering it.
Amos Keppler
>
> > To attain
> >that potential, I would argue that she would have to have active
> >contact with the Phoenix Force, and that does not currently appear to
> >be the case.
>
She is the Phoenix "Force".
Amos Keppler
Not necessarily. Jean can still, in many ways, be/become that aspect,
as Sise Neg, the alternative 31st century sorcerer and Nexus being, who
became one with the universe and thus shared in its creation.
And in thousand other ways.
Amos
Amos Keppler
Of course it will, she is Phoenix, there has been so many hints of it
now, that it could hold up in a court of law...
Telepaths may not have the time travel capacity, but the
telepaths/telekinetics of the Gray family have. Besides, Phoenix
transcends such labels. She (Jean), is One with the universe, all times,
all places. On her appearent "death" on the moon, she did not die, but
chose to limit herselves, for a while, to learn to better control her
infinite Power.
Amos
Amos
Amos Keppler
>
> In article <92876207...@news.remarQ.com>, Mike Hawco
> <Mi...@simscape.ca> writes
> >
> >Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean to her proper body
> >(Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix which means that for the last 9 years the
> >phoenix has been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of Jean and
> >it is now starting to exert itself more.
>
> Highly unlikely. Phoenix makes subsequent appearances in Excalibur.
>
> Of course, as a conceptual entity there is no reason why Phoenix
> can't manifest in two places at once; but Phoenix's behaviour in
> Excalibur strongly suggests that it has no other hosts but Rachel
> at that time.
>
As I said, writers do ignore selected continuuity al the time. And
there are numerous happening suggesting that Jean is more than she
seems.
My take on it is that Rachel only "borrowed" a tiny bit of Jean's
ultimate power.
Amos
--
Amos Keppler
>
> Fucking hell, not this again.
>
> In article <7jegml$p3d$3...@romeo.dax.net>, William Roberts
> <strangerk...@c2i.net> writes
> >
> > That's your opinion and you of course free to it, but I agree that
> >she IS. There are just numerous hints to that effect spread throughout
> >the last 15 years of storytelling.
>
> evidence [1] *for* Jean being Phoenix that people will choose to
> disregard statements by creative teams, editors, X-Factor and all the
> comics that surrounded Jean's revival, a large chunk of Excalibur, and
>
I, for one, as many do, do disregard Excalibur continuity completely.
But that's not necessary to claim that Jean *is* Phoenix.
As to where? There are no proofs, of course, either way, but a lot of
claims and innuendos, either way...
Wolverine #125 Chris Claremont, the X - Man scribe extraordinaire
X - Factor #6, the bird shape around her, not something out of Cyclops
fevered dreams.
The Inferno storyline, especially X - Factor #38
The words of Onslaught, Apocalypse, Destiny (in X - Factor #8, of Jean
being a nexus of probabilities, a blind spot, virtually existing outside
time and space).
The Seagal run.
The white hole incident.
Lots and lots of material...
ICQ de Designers
> Telepaths may not have the time travel capacity, but the
> telepaths/telekinetics of the Gray family have.
One, it was Rachel, and she only sent minds back until she got a jumpstart by
the PF to go physically. Jean never did it. Cable used Professor to do it or
used a Shi'ar machine to jumpstart residual chronal energies in him, Maddy never
did it. Nate never did it, the M'Krann Crystal bounced him there or he TK froze
"space" still, not time. So "one" does not make it the "Grey family"
> Besides, Phoenix transcends such labels. She (Jean), is One with the
> universe, all times, all places.
Well, the PF, Phoenix Force, as a cosmic entity is all time, all places, I have
no problem with that concept, but you obviously mean that Jean is the PF, as
one, not as a symbiosis, which I can't have.
--
Consul de Designers, my ICQ 10208399, let's get together!
[Jameson Stalanthas Yu, Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners]
William Roberts
>Amos Keppler wrote:
>> Telepaths may not have the time travel capacity, but the
>> telepaths/telekinetics of the Gray family have.
>One, it was Rachel, and she only sent minds back until she got a jumpstart by
>the PF to go physically. Jean never did it. Cable used Professor to do it or
>used a Shi'ar machine to jumpstart residual chronal energies in him, Maddy never
>did it. Nate never did it, the M'Krann Crystal bounced him there or he TK froze
>"space" still, not time. So "one" does not make it the "Grey family"
>> Besides, Phoenix transcends such labels. She (Jean), is One with the
>> universe, all times, all places.
>Well, the PF, Phoenix Force, as a cosmic entity is all time, all places, I have
>no problem with that concept, but you obviously mean that Jean is the PF, as
>one, not as a symbiosis, which I can't have.
She was the first "Onslaught like" mutant, except far more powerful.
Onslaught needed a lot of stepping stones, to reach his relatively low
level of power, but she became instantly one with creation. And even
if she was seduced by the power, by Wyngarde, by her own darker
nature, she hasn't Xaviers neurosis, and therefore her corruption took
longer time. I agree that she really didn't kill herself on the moon,
but cut herself temporary off from her own power, to win time.
WR
*********************************
GROWTH AND REBIRTH 1999-05-27
* Walk The Long Walk *
* http://home.c2i.net/stranger/ *
* We all do! *
*********************************
William Roberts
Uncanny #281
X - Factor #68
And many more hints and such. There shouldn't really be any doubt
here.
Rutog89
Not until an issue says flat out that Jean is the Phoenix Force and shows at
that power level. If what you Jean fans say is true, then an issue would have
flat out said it by now.
BlakGard
First of all, I am hardly a Jean fan.
Secondly, Jean has been shown at this power level. Not only have we seen her at
it, but both Xavier and Apocalypse have said she has this power.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
BlakGard
>>to her proper body (Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix
>>which means that for the last 9 years the phoenix has
>>been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of
>>Jean and it is now starting to exert itself more.
>
>with Rachel.
As I have explained earlier in this thread, Rachel never had the complete
Phoenix.
Can you tell me what 10% of infnity is?
BlakGard
>>There is no doubt that Jean could do this, as other telepaths
>>have (ie, Rachel and Legion), although she has yet to do so.
>
>This has no basis in the comics, that telepaths can timetravel.
>It's a totally different, separate power.
>
>((snipped the time travel))
I can only guess that you have been sleeping for the past 20 years, as
telepaths have shown this exact power.
BlakGard
>>avatar created by Jean.
>
>Phoenix until she hits these power levels. That's what
>I have to say. Until she does, the Jean fans have
>nothing but speculation and hopes.
Like I also said, I am not a Jean fan, and if I were, then I would not really
want such a thing to happen, as when characters reach these power levels, they
cease being written as characters.
BlakGard
>>you don't like it.
>
>Jean Grey cannot time travel, she can't consume stars,
>she can't tap into cosmic power, she isn't immortal, she
>has limits.
Someone has not been paying much attention over the past few years.
BlakGard
>the moral basis of Jean.
>So it's like Jean taught JeanPhoenix on what to do. She
>shouldn't get _blame_ but she should realize that it was
>her "examples" that did the deed.
Except, by this time, "JeanPhoenix" was no longer completely in control, having
had her/its morality zapped by Mastermind.
Alleigh
>>>Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean
>>>to her proper body (Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix
>>>which means that for the last 9 years the phoenix has
>>>been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of
>>>Jean and it is now starting to exert itself more.
>>
>>Then how the heck do you explain that the Phoenix was
>>with Rachel.
>
>As I have explained earlier in this thread, Rachel never had the complete
>Phoenix.
>
>Can you tell me what 10% of infnity is?
But there is only one host at a time.
Yoda - "Fear leads anger...anger leads to hate...
hate leads to suffering.
<remove the REMOVETHIS to reply by e-mail>
Rutog89
>
Potentially.
Rutog89
>telepaths have shown this exact power.
So. Jean hasn't.
Amos Keppler
>
> >ut both Xavier and Apocalypse have said she has this power.
> >
>
> Potentially.
Amount to the same thing. As Lilandra said. Phoenix is Phoenix, no
matter the present power level. This is really quite obvious, I don't
understand why people attempts to disregard it.
Amos Keppler
>
> On 9 Jun 1999 00:52:33 GMT, blak...@aol.com (BlakGard) wrote:
>
> >>>Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean
> >>>to her proper body (Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix
> >>>which means that for the last 9 years the phoenix has
> >>>been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of
> >>>Jean and it is now starting to exert itself more.
> >>
> >>Then how the heck do you explain that the Phoenix was
> >>with Rachel.
> >
> >As I have explained earlier in this thread, Rachel never had the complete
> >Phoenix.
> >
> >Can you tell me what 10% of infnity is?
>
> But there is only one host at a time.
>
No hosts. Rachel gained a small portion of the power temporarily, while
Jean (subconsciously) to play it safe, has limited herself. She was
about to fix that, when Seagle was forced to resign.
Amos Keppler
>
> >>According to my theory, at least, Phoenix is a psionic
> >>avatar created by Jean.
> >
> >Well, like you said, it isn't comic book. Jean is not the
> >Phoenix until she hits these power levels. That's what
> >I have to say. Until she does, the Jean fans have
> >nothing but speculation and hopes.
>
> Like I also said, I am not a Jean fan, and if I were, then I would not really
> want such a thing to happen, as when characters reach these power levels, they
> cease being written as characters.
>
Oh, no, it was when Jean became Phoenix she became an interesting
character, a believable person. Before that she was poretrayed as a
saint... or a nun.
Amos
Amos Keppler
I believe she has. At the very least off panel.
And when she probably, perhaps traveled back in time to the rescue of
the space shuttle and herself.
Amos
--
Amos Keppler
>
> >>But she has. We already established that. Even if
> >>you don't like it.
> >
> >Jean Grey cannot time travel, she can't consume stars,
> >she can't tap into cosmic power, she isn't immortal, she
> >has limits.
>
> Someone has not been paying much attention over the past few years.
>
That's so true.
Jean can time travel.
She can consume stars (and even universes).
She *is* Cosmic Power personified.
She is immortal, perhaps beyond even that.
She has no other limits than the ones she from time to time, put on
Rutog89
> And when she probably, perhaps traveled back in time to the rescue of
>the space shuttle and herself.
>
What? In that Case, why didn't the X-MEN just depend on Jean to time travel
them when Legion went back in time. Why did they need Bishop to go back?!?
Rutog89
>matter the present power level. This is really quite obvious, I don't
>understand why people attempts to disregard it.
Because she was talking about a cosmic entity.
Rutog89
>>
>
> That's so true.
In that case, why is it that Jean is constantly functioning at much lower power
levels?!
NyteKrwlr
>character, a believable person. Before that she was poretrayed as a
>saint... or a nun.
>
> Amos
Jean Grey didn't become interesting because she gained power, she became
interesting when the power corupted her, that's a big difference. Suddenly
Saint Jean had wiped out an entire civilization, which to me is a good reason
why she should never have that much power again I have no problem with them
giving Jean back the title of Phoenix as a codename but the minute she regains
the full power of the Phoenix Force, people better run, cause noone will be
safe. Realistically no human being would be able to weild such power and stay
sane, which is why I would just rather see Jean become an independent human
being from Scott Summers and divorce his butt.
Craig
Fuzzy Elf Lover!
"I miss.....I need.......your laughter"
Ororo Munroe stands over her fallen comrade Kurt Wagner.
my web site
http://members.aol.com/NyteKrwlr//index.html
" Honey, we talked about that shirt!" Karen from "Will and Grace
Paul O'Brien
<rut...@aol.com> writes
>
>What? In that Case, why didn't the X-MEN just depend on Jean to time travel
>them when Legion went back in time. Why did they need Bishop to go back?!?
There's no point getting into these arguments. Basically, it's only
possible to believe that Jean is still supposed to be Phoenix if you're
willing to ignore all the evidence to the contrary and only pay
attention to a tiny number of ambiguous stories and continuity errors,
and you've probably gathered from this thread already that that's
exactly what's happening. It's like arguing with the Flat Earth
Society; don't waste your time.
Paul O'Brien
pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk
I love living somewhere that hates Pat Robertson.
js...@cornell.edu
Paul O'Brien <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <19990608224642...@ng-fj1.aol.com>, Rutog89
> <rut...@aol.com> writes
> >
> >What? In that Case, why didn't the X-MEN just depend on Jean to time
travel
> >them when Legion went back in time. Why did they need Bishop to go
back?!?
>
> There's no point getting into these arguments. Basically, it's only
> possible to believe that Jean is still supposed to be Phoenix if
you're
> willing to ignore all the evidence to the contrary and only pay
> attention to a tiny number of ambiguous stories and continuity errors,
> and you've probably gathered from this thread already that that's
> exactly what's happening. It's like arguing with the Flat Earth
> Society; don't waste your time.
Marvel's official explanation.
There are two beings of enormous psionic powers that have used the name
Phoenix.(Jean and Rachel). When the phoenixcame to Jean on the
shuttle, it merged with a part of her, She existed twice, as the Human
Marvel Girl and as the phoenix.(See cerebro files on www.marvel.com
under Phoenix I and Phoenix II.)
No, Jean does not currently have the Phoenix force. Her current power
upgrades are merely her own psionic powers ot he max. According to
Powers, she is in the phoenic costume and making the phoenix effect in
order to live up to the name phoenix and embrace that persona.
It will be interesting to see how they portray her this summer.
By the way, Jean's full psionic powers to indeed rival the Phoenix
force. She said so in the issue of Iceman guest starring the X-Babies.
She has telepathically linked a world and defeated a celestial,
psionically stablized a star after telepathically tracking Binary down
from 15 light years away, and flying through yperspace.
If one reads any book with the celestials ar enternals in it humans are
supposed to evolve to celestial level. With all the insane power ups
telepaths in Marvel get, it's pretty clear they all have the potential
to do this if pushes far enough.
Nate Grey's powers(whcih are phoenix level) where inhereted from Jean.
According to astra powerful mutants like Xavier would be all powerful
execpt for the barriers placed on their powers. Sinister obviously
removed these barriers from Nate when he created them.
Jean overcame the barriers on her powers on her own in the issues
written in the latter part of Lobdell's ru nad during Seagle's run it
was often referenced to how Jean's power levels were increasing . Jean
told Iceman she was pushing past the limits on her powers to become more
powerful.
Oh, and the Goblin Queen in Mutant X(madelyne is Jean's clone) has
certainly demonstrated Phoenix level power. This is further proof that
it is Jean's potential. Ditto for Madelyne Pryor in this reality.
>
> Paul O'Brien
> pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk
>
> I love living somewhere that hates Pat Robertson.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
js...@cornell.edu
> <rever...@aol.com> writes
> >If Jean was always Phoenix, how do you explain Rachel? Didn't she
carry the
> >Phoenix force for a time?
>
> Rachel isn't Jean's daughter. Leaving aside one rogue account in an
> issue of Excalibur (an unreliable flashback by a character who later
> admitted to having misled the team), her timeline is supposed to be
> the one where the Dark Phoenix Saga ended as originally intended,
> with Phoenix I returning to Earth and having kids. So she's not
> Jean's daughter at all, she's Phoenix's.
According to Marvel, Phoenix I is Jean Grey. WHen the phoenix came ot
her aboard the shuttle, it merged wit hehr and hse existed twice, as the
Human Marvel Girl and as the Phoenix.
That makes Rachel Jean's daughter. The Jean clone phoenix had the same
dna is Jean, same memories and personality. Effectively, she was her ,as
the yeven had the same soul, just an extention of her.
js...@cornell.edu
> > untarnished, and shouldn't even be considered as toilet paper
anymore.
> > Jean should be tarnished. Every human being is. And that was what
> > making her Phoenix did, turning the saint into a living, bloody
human
> > being.
>
> Jean can still be tarnished, as JeanPhoenix was using the moral basis
of Jean.
> So it's like Jean taught JeanPhoenix on what to do. She shouldn't get
_blame_
> but she should realize that it was her "examples" that did the deed.
Phoenix went further than using Jean's moral basis. Aboard that shuttle
it merged wit hpart of Jean's oul and became her.(the part of Jean that
was determined to survive on her own rejected the phoenix and stayed in
her orginal body).
So Jean is responsible for all that the Phoenix did. And of course, the
phoenix returned that part of Jean Grey to her during inferno, making
Jea nwhole again.
I beleive that's what Cyclops feare,d that Jean was so eager to use her
full powers and literally take on the mantle of the phoenix because of
the phoenix memories in her mind. Perhaps the phoenix persona was
resurfacing. Either way, Jean is tarnished.
But you're right, Busiek's explantion was crap.:) If you read their
website Marvle using Claremont's explanation from Classic X-men 6 and
43.
> --
> Consul de Designers,
> [Jameson Stalanthas Yu, Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and
Edgerunners]
> [Link at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~jamesony -X- ICQ 10208399]
> [Joint Educational Project http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/JEP]
> [Mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human]
>
js...@cornell.edu
Amos Keppler <asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
> Rutog89 wrote:
> >
> > >Forget Busiek's silly notion. It was just a ploy to bring Jean back
> > >untarnished, and shouldn't even be considered as toilet paper
anymore.
> >
>
> Many things are ignored by the creators. This should be one of them.
>
> Besides, there are many stories countering it.
For the most part, both Lobdell and Sealge ignored Busiek's notion and I
beleie future writers will . jean is in the phoenixcostuem manifesting
phoenix like powers(future spoilers show her shooting energy blasts like
pHoenix). This is something Busiek's/Simonson's Marvel girl never would
have done(Claimed the name phoenix, wore the costume or embraced the
persona).
Powers said it best, As the phoenix, Jean had a better costume and was
simply cooler and more popular.
>
> Amos
>
> --
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> RENOVATIAN AND EXPANSION 1999-05-27
> < My virtual, wilderness community address is: >
> < http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/6010/ >
> < My address at midnight: >
> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/ ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
> Feel the heat of Firewind
> http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/firewind.html
>
> "To sin by silence makes coward of a man"
>
> Voltaire
>
js...@cornell.edu
nyte...@aol.comQCraigQ (NyteKrwlr) wrote:
> > Oh, no, it was when Jean became Phoenix she became an interesting
> >character, a believable person. Before that she was poretrayed as a
> >saint... or a nun.
> >
> > Amos
>
> Jean Grey didn't become interesting because she gained power, she
became
> interesting when the power corupted her, that's a big difference.
Suddenly
> Saint Jean had wiped out an entire civilization, which to me is a good
reason
> why she should never have that much power again I have no problem with
them
> giving Jean back the title of Phoenix as a codename but the minute she
regains
> the full power of the Phoenix Force, people better run, cause noone
will be
> safe. Realistically no human being would be able to weild such power
and stay
> sane, which is why I would just rather see Jean become an independent
human
> being from Scott Summers and divorce his butt.
I thought Jean was interesting the minute she became phoenix. Why?
Phoenix/jean was a split personality . Jean was religious repressed
Catholic woman, while her phoenix persona was wild, uninhibited,
aggressive and impuslive.
That weas the orginal concpet of phoenix, that when Jean became phoenix
and achieved her full potential as a psi she became a split personality.
The religious Jean couldn't deal with having so much power so she let
her repressed side(Phoenix) control her power. Then, everytime she was
placed in a combat situation the phoenix persona would take over. When
the phoenixpersona was in charge, the voice captions were different and
not only that, she looked different . Her eyes wewre firey and her hair
was long and free flowing . With the Jean persona in charge her style
was usually Farrah Fawcet.
>
> Craig
> Fuzzy Elf Lover!
> "I miss.....I need.......your laughter"
> Ororo Munroe stands over her fallen comrade Kurt Wagner.
> my web site
> http://members.aol.com/NyteKrwlr//index.html
> " Honey, we talked about that shirt!" Karen from "Will and Grace
>
js...@cornell.edu
rut...@aol.com (Rutog89) wrote:
> >I can only guess that you have been sleeping for the past 20 years,
as
> >telepaths have shown this exact power.
>
> So. Jean hasn't.
Phoenix did.
However, during Legion Quest, when Legion took the X-men back in time,
Jean was able to anchor herself in this time. She said it took a lot of
effort to keep herself from being yanked back in time. If she can do
that she can time travel. ALl her off spring can.
js...@cornell.edu
Amos Keppler <asterdi...@hl.telia.no> wrote:
> Alleigh wrote:
> >
> > On 9 Jun 1999 00:52:33 GMT, blak...@aol.com (BlakGard) wrote:
> >
> > >>>Unless that presence Xavier felt when returning Jean
> > >>>to her proper body (Uncanny 282?) was the Phoenix
> > >>>which means that for the last 9 years the phoenix has
> > >>>been residing (at least part of the phoenix) inside of
> > >>>Jean and it is now starting to exert itself more.
> > >>
> > >>Then how the heck do you explain that the Phoenix was
> > >>with Rachel.
> > >
> > >As I have explained earlier in this thread, Rachel never had the
complete
> > >Phoenix.
> > >
> > >Can you tell me what 10% of infnity is?
> >
> > But there is only one host at a time.
> >
>
> No hosts. Rachel gained a small portion of the power temporarily,
while
> Jean (subconsciously) to play it safe, has limited herself. She was
> about to fix that, when Seagle was forced to resign.
>
> Amos
Well, the summer spoilers show her in the phoenix outfit shooting
energyblasts like she did as phoenix.
So I think Marvel is back on tracking. Actually, Madelyne pryor has
Phoenix level power. And the caption in X-Man has referred to her as a
smouldering emember of the phoenix fanned to full flame due to Nate
Grey's extreme loniles and desperation.
>
> --
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> RENOVATIAN AND EXPANSION 1999-05-27
> < My virtual, wilderness community address is: >
> < http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/6010/ >
> < My address at midnight: >
> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/ ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
> Feel the heat of Firewind
> http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/firewind.html
>
> "To sin by silence makes coward of a man"
>
> Voltaire
>