Why is Magneto such a hypocrite/dumbass?
The Ma-jin
Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's acting for mutants in
the name of ending all of that. But he is doing it by the same means that he
(supposedly) despises.
The old Magneto that simply wanted himself & mutants to be left alone was much
more rational. Also, he's doing it in a rather direct open way, that doesn't
appear to have been well thought out. People like Dr. Doom, Panther or Namor
wouldn't be too happy with what he's trying to achieve. Surely he knows that.
My theory is this: Magneto has gone nuts. No, really. His cause has overwhelmed
him, and he's become psychotic and delusional. What if he gets his wish and
mutants rule over the Earth? Wouldn't he become another Hitler and try to
exterminate the Homo Superiors? This guys lost it after all those years. He's
degenerated into a loony. I don't see any other way to reconcile with this new
evil Magneto. Kidnapping Xavier without provocation?
===========================================================
You witness the saga, casualties and drama/
Life is a script, I'm not a actor but the author/
of a modern day opera, where the main character/
is presidential paper, the dominant, factor.
- (Inspektah Deck)
CNSMR
>much
>more rational.
In Magneto's first appearance, the X-Men were forced to stop him in his
professed conquest of the human race through seizing and controlling the Cape
Citadel missile base. His next and later appearances show him elaborating on
his plans by bringing together an entire brotherhood of his fellow "evil
mutants".
Any portrayal that depicts him acting otherwise is a contradiction of his
initial concept.
Kiki
: My theory is this: Magneto has gone nuts. No, really. His cause has overwhelmed
: him, and he's become psychotic and delusional. What if he gets his wish and
I think that's the whole point though. Which I think is very interesting
if you ask me.
Tigress
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Laura M. Parkinson
>Is he a f*cking dumbass? He hates humans because of slavery, and Hitler and
>Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's acting for mutants in
>the name of ending all of that. But he is doing it by the same means that he
>(supposedly) despises.
Short version? Because Lobdell's "writing" him. Period.
--
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
Jerry Jones
His initial concept was developed nearly 40 years ago during a time
when villians could only either be ranting madmen bent on taking
over the world or two bit thugs. It's far more difficult to get away
with such one-dimensional today(even though theyare still being
churned out). Even Stan Lee has stated he is bigger fan of the
more sane Magneto then the Hitler wannabe from years ago.
Jerry Jones
Brian Doyle
"The Ma-jin " <mad...@aol.comVEGETA> wrote in message
news:20010407103804...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> Is he a f*cking dumbass? He hates humans because of slavery, and Hitler and
> Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's acting for mutants in
> the name of ending all of that. But he is doing it by the same means that he
> (supposedly) despises.
That's the whole tragic irony of the character, he has seen the reuslts of hate, but
can't repsond in any other way. He's tried changing and embracing Xavier's dream, but
the results were tragic (New Mutant Doug Ramsey died when under his care). He's
concluded that if humans want a race war then he's going to give them one.
> The old Magneto that simply wanted himself & mutants to be left alone was much
> more rational.
But that approach failed too. Direct action is the only way he knows.
>Also, he's doing it in a rather direct open way, that doesn't
> appear to have been well thought out. People like Dr. Doom, Panther or Namor
> wouldn't be too happy with what he's trying to achieve. Surely he knows that.
He doesn't care about them, onlt his own people, mutants.. Besides, Namor's a mutant
too, he might sympathise.
> My theory is this: Magneto has gone nuts. No, really. His cause has overwhelmed
> him, and he's become psychotic and delusional.
When was he entirely sane?
>What if he gets his wish and
> mutants rule over the Earth? Wouldn't he become another Hitler and try to
> exterminate the Homo Superiors?
Again, that's deliberate irony. He rejects the peaceful approach as being too slow
and wasteful of mutant life at the hands of flatscans.
>I don't see any other way to reconcile with this new
> evil Magneto. Kidnapping Xavier without provocation?
Again, like many of the best and scariest villains Magneto doesn't view his actions
as evil, just necessary. He's done a lot worse in the past than kidnap a guy, Sinking
a submarine with all hands ring a bell? Disabling the worlds power grid with an EMP?
It's suggesting that Magento was ever that rational that's flying in the face of his
history.
Cheers!
Justin Samuels
"Jerry Jones" <jjo...@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:3ACF60...@shrike.depaul.edu...
Many tyrants who rose to power(Hitler, Castro, Stalin, Amo) etc, ran on
populist campaigns. In other words, they were concerned about their poor
oppressed people and defending them from both internal and external enemies.
Those dictators are as real as they get. magneto is super powered dictator
. And dictoators are being churned out as we speak, look at Hugo Chavez of
Venezuela.
>
> Jerry Jones
Lacy3399
>Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's acting for mutants in
>the name of ending all of that. But he is doing it by the same means that he
>(supposedly) despises.
It seems we're left with a choice of Magneto as stupid, who doesn't even
see the irony in his own words, or, Magneto as psychotic. Once again.
>The old Magneto that simply wanted himself & mutants to be left alone was
>much
>more rational.
Magneto has had his ups and downs. To put it mildly. He clearly had a
psychotic break sometime before he was casing Cape Citadel; something Xavier
apparently felt was coming. He was clearly manic and psychotic during much of
his early career as Magneto; others have testified as much.
Once he was deaged and reaged, a ceratin amount of mental healing occurred,
and he began to reevaluate his life. He became stable enough to call his past,
before the deaging, his "time of madness," that he never wanted to experience
again. (And many of his fans -- including myself -- never wanted to see him
experience it again, as well.)
Alas, after going through a deep depression where he withdrew from all
affairs of earth (where we found him at the beginning of X-MEN vol.2, #1), and
after nearly discorporating and dying when Asteroid M crashed to earth, he
apparently had another psychotic break.
>Also, he's doing it in a rather direct open way, that doesn't
>appear to have been well thought out. People like Dr. Doom, Panther or Namor
>wouldn't be too happy with what he's trying to achieve. Surely he knows that.
He's always been direct. Comics like UXM #350, which tried to make a covert
creeper out of him, portray Magneto way out of character.
>My theory is this: Magneto has gone nuts. No, really. His cause has
>overwhelmed
>him, and he's become psychotic and delusional. What if he gets his wish and
>mutants rule over the Earth? Wouldn't he become another Hitler and try to
>exterminate the Homo Superiors? This guys lost it after all those years. He's
>degenerated into a loony. I don't see any other way to reconcile with this
>new
>evil Magneto. Kidnapping Xavier without provocation?
Without a doubt, Magneto is psychotic. If the crash of Asteroid M didn't do
it, if the mind-wipe didn't do it, then Astra certainly could have done
something -- she had ample opportunity to mess with Magneto's mind. What a
complete kind of revenge, to ensure that Magneto becomes so totally insane and
reprehensible he can never recover his reputation or lay claim to mutant
leadership again.
I agree that the double-page spread in XM #111, in which Magneto gives the
world his speech, is evidence of a man suffering from psychosis. As with most
people who have had a break with reality, there still seems to be a rational
veneer to his thinking, but you soon begin to hear enough delusional and
bizarre reasoning to understand, Magneto is insane.
I am very very depressed by the portrayal of Magneto in "Eve of
Destruction." To me, it is way over the top. Lobdell's choice all the way --
this is what he wanted to do, this is the Magneto he wanted to portray.
Strangely, the contradictory nature of Magneto's speech (see the preview pages
at Mile High Comics for more, from XM #112) reminds me of UXM #304.
In the context of the X-Universe, we are left with no choice but to
conclude, Magneto is psychotic. He was indeed more rational at times in the
past -- for example, in UXM #274, #275.. And I wanted very much to see Magnus
remain a man on the edge: tortured, consumed by his rage, pain, and pride. I
think it's the most valid way to portray Magneto. But, unfortunately, the
madness we see now isn't new to him.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>professed conquest of the human race through seizing and controlling the Cape
>Citadel missile base. His next and later appearances show him elaborating on
>his plans by bringing together an entire brotherhood of his fellow "evil
>mutants".
>
>Any portrayal that depicts him acting otherwise is a contradiction of his
>initial concept.
It seems to me you're looking at the character only from the technical
point of view. I wonder why X-Men readers seem to be able to minutely discuss
other characters in the context of their total history as citizens of the
Marvel Universe, but when it comes to Magneto, suddenly they forget all about
everything except, "Stan Lee made him this way nearly 40 years ago."
Magnus struggled for many years with his own psychological demons; we don't
really know what --for sure -- made him snap and become "Magneto" the
self-styled "Master of Magnetism" but it had something to do with such
experiences as Auschwitz, the death of Anya, Magda abandoning him, and
Isabelle's murder, amongst other things.
Other things including the fact, as presented by Moira MacTaggert, that
Magneto's mind is affected when he overuses his powers. This is his weakness --
he cannot remain mentally stable and use the vast amounts of power he continues
to crave.
The character -- as presented in the comics -- has a long history that
predates Cape Citadel, and follows Cape Citadel. The bwahaha cackling madman is
archaic. Marvel claims to be writing comics for the 21st century, and is going
to extremes to hire cutting-edge writers and artists, yet approves Scott
Lobdell writing Magneto in this really useless, retro, regressive way.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>when villians could only either be ranting madmen bent on taking
>over the world or two bit thugs. It's far more difficult to get away
>with such one-dimensional today(even though theyare still being
>churned out). Even Stan Lee has stated he is bigger fan of the
>more sane Magneto then the Hitler wannabe from years ago.
Exactly.
Stan Lee said, in one of the first WIZARD X-MEN specials, when asked for
his "Favorite X-character" -- "Magneto." There was another category, of
"Favorite X-villain" -- Stan didn't say Magneto there. He put Magneto in the
category of, "Favorite X-character."
And further, he said, "I always thought of him as someone who genuinely
believed in the justness of his cause, sort of like a mutant Malcom X."
(Did anyone catch Stan on Comedy Central's "Turn Ben Stein On" show? I
missed it! I hear he talked about heroes and villains, good and evil in comic
books. Does anyone know if Stan talked about Magneto?) (Gotta catch that
appearance when it reruns sometime.)
Lacy
Steven Dumont
The Ma-jin wrote:
>
> Is he a f*cking dumbass? He hates humans because of slavery, and Hitler and
> Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's acting for mutants in
> the name of ending all of that. But he is doing it by the same means that he
> (supposedly) despises.
To be fair, look around the world. Hypocrisy runs rampant on this
planet. I don't think they are all nuts. Assholes possibly but not
crazy.
Steve
Lacy3399
>overwhelmed
>: him, and he's become psychotic and delusional. What if he gets his wish and
>
>I think that's the whole point though. Which I think is very interesting
>if you ask me.
I think it could be very interesting, if Lobdell actually references it
this way. Unfortunately, I don't have the confidence that Scott L. will. There
is evidence that Lobdell sees this "Dr. Evil with magnetic powers" as perfectly
rational, sane. It seems, to him, Magneto is a racist who wants to conquer the
world.
But, as others have mentioned, one cannot take Magneto's history as a
whole, and come to any other conclusion -- given his dialogue and his actions
-- than, Magnus has had a break with reality, and is in the throes of
psychosis.
BTW, I thought XM #111 was a very good comic book. Well-written, a good job
all around. Magneto, in XM #111, seemed like the Marvel Universe embodiment of
Colonel Kurtz, from APOCALPYSE NOW, (or Kurtz from HEART OF DARKNESS). Kurtz
says, "I've seen horrors ... horrors that you've never seen. But you have no
right to calll me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to
do that .... But you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to
describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror.
Horror has a face.... And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral
terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared.
They are truly enemies...."
Roger Ebert said of the character of Kurtz, in APOCALYPSE NOW, "... Kurtz
... penetrated the reality of war to such a depth that he could not look any
longer without madness and despair."
To give Scott Lobdell credit which he may not deserve, if this is where
he's going with Magneto, it does make some kind of sense. Magnus, who has seen
horrors very few have ever seen in all of history, who once was a good and
idealistic man, has looked into the true face of human nature, man's inhumanity
to man, and "... could not look any longer without madness and despair."
Of course, there is the possibility that Lobdell just likes Magneto to be a
raving bad-ass villain.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>overwhelmed
>> him, and he's become psychotic and delusional.
>
>When was he entirely sane?
Well, given that the word "sane" or "insanity" isn't a clinical definition
of what Magnus suffers from, you're right. He has -- at the very least --
suffered from severe PTSD post-Auschwitz and Anya's murder. Magnus has been,
since he survived being machine-gunned with his family and buried alive, a very
troubled man, struggling with his inner terrors and demons.
>>What if he gets his wish and
>> mutants rule over the Earth? Wouldn't he become another Hitler and try to
>> exterminate the Homo Superiors?
>
>Again, that's deliberate irony. He rejects the peaceful approach as being too
>slow
>and wasteful of mutant life at the hands of flatscans.
He does reject the peaceful approach, given such events as Operaton: Zero
Tolerance.
What is up with Xavier, though? Is Xavier deliberately playing martyr?
Saint? Has he finally, fully embraced passive resistance as a philosophy?
>>I don't see any other way to reconcile with this new
>> evil Magneto. Kidnapping Xavier without provocation?
>
>Again, like many of the best and scariest villains Magneto doesn't view his
>actions
>as evil, just necessary. He's done a lot worse in the past than kidnap a guy,
>Sinking
>a submarine with all hands ring a bell? Disabling the worlds power grid with
>an EMP?
>It's suggesting that Magento was ever that rational that's flying in the face
>of his
>history.
While I agree with nearly everything you say, especially that Magnus has
not been entirely rational for most of his life, I would just add that I don't
consider Magneto a "scary" villain in the bwahaha bop-'em-on-the-head
tradition. He should be scary because we can understand him! Because so many
people are like him! He's more of the left-wing sort, who wins the revolution
but then goes on to persecute and enslave those who disagree with him in a
worse way than those who he originally rebelled against ever did.
This powered-up teeth-gnashing Magneto, that we've seen thus far -- and we
see in the preview pages of XM #112 -- could yet be salvaged by Lobdell. The
crossover isn't over yet. I am greatly discouraged however, that this will
happen. I don't find this Magneto scary at all -- just another regression to a
1960s "Dr. Evil" type villain. There needs to be some look into the workings of
his mind. So far, we've seen no introspection, no thoughts, no sense of self,
or sense of irony.
The Magnus we've seen thus far, is a caricature; although his speech does
show a lot of evidence for what you say above; i.e., a high-minded idealism
which serves to couch his deadly intentions.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>populist campaigns. In other words, they were concerned about their poor
>oppressed people and defending them from both internal and external enemies.
>
>Those dictators are as real as they get. magneto is super powered dictator
>. And dictoators are being churned out as we speak, look at Hugo Chavez of
>Venezuela.
Jerry Jones was replying to the point, that the Magneto of UNCANNY X-MEN #1
is the only true Magneto, and anything that deviates from that portrayal, is
wrong. I agree with Jerry, that such an attitude regarding Magneto is
inaccurate, given the character's long history.
Your point above, about dictators, is nonetheless valid. I further say,
Magnus is more of the left-wing totalitarian sort -- whose idealism has been
warped and twisted. Witness his speech in XM #111.
But given the character as a whole, as he has been presented to us in his
entirety, the portrayal in "Eve of Destruction" is (to many of us) a regression
and deeply troubling, despite the fact that there are (God knows) enough
dictators in real-life for Magneto to model.
Lacy
Justin Samuels
"Garjones" <garj...@spamlessntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sp6vcto9fildr1b8u...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:33:41 GMT, "Justin Samuels"
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Many tyrants who rose to power(Hitler, Castro, Stalin, Amo) etc, ran on
> >populist campaigns. In other words, they were concerned about their poor
> >oppressed people and defending them from both internal and external
enemies.
>
> Castro in with Hitler and Stalin. I've been to Cuba and Cubans are
> allowed to criticise their government quite publicily without
> sanction, believe me I've witnessed it. It may not be democratic but
> Castro isn't a tyrant.
He seized property of individuals, for the most part doesn't allow free
enterprise, and this isn't tyrannical?
The country does breach human rights standards
> put forward by the UN and Amnesty International but so do the US and
> the UK - death penalty and anti-terrorism legislation respectively.
>
> It always seems crazy to me that the US are happy as larry to deal
> with governments that run over students with tanks but keep sanctions
> against Cuba (who do nothing of the sort). But then they also know how
> much cash Phillip Morris make from nearly 2 billion Chinese!
>
> Hitler's rise cant be compared to Stalin and Castro anyway. Hitler
> transformed the German economy after they were forced to use
> wheelbarrows to carry enough money to buy a loaf of bread. The system
> in place before Castro was twice as corrupt and exploitative as what
> followed.
Yet it made everyone poor, except for Castro's elite. yes I know about the
free education and health care ,but socialist socieities simply do not
advance. Cuba is in decay, and it is an impoverrished nation which could be
wealthier if it didn't have a senile imbecile for a leader!
Rhetoric whether from the right or left, doesn't feed families. if Castro
was willing to work out plans to return confiscated properties, etc, and
have hte mebargo against Cuba ended, Cuba not only would make considerable
money from tourism, they would make money from oil.(there is oil in and in
the seas around Cuba).
Stalin claimed he was acting in the interests of the poor people across the
Soviet union, instead, they got a repressive government . Ditt ofor Cuba and
Germany.
My ultimate oint is that people come across as champions or saviors, often
end up tyrants. Their rhethoric was merely a campaign slogan to put them in
power.
>
>
>
> Cheers Drive!
>
> Gareth
Justin Samuels
"Lacy3399" <lacy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010407200311...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
But as i said, many dictators have made the same regression. Magneot so
strongly believes he is the way, he is willing to obliterate all who stand
in his way, or attemtp to . Many such dictators have felt similiarly.
>
> Lacy
BlakGard
>professed conquest of the human race through seizing and controlling the Cape
>Citadel missile base. His next and later appearances show him elaborating on
>his plans by bringing together an entire brotherhood of his fellow "evil
>mutants".
>
>Any portrayal that depicts him acting otherwise is a contradiction of his
>initial concept.
<sarcasm>
And of course, we must continue to have 2-Dimensional charactures.
</sarcasm>
While in the 80s, Marvel managed to turn a cardboard villain into a truly
interesting character, all Marvel has managed to do over the past 10 years is
destroy him.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
Menshevik
>transformed the German economy after they were forced to use
>wheelbarrows to carry enough money to buy a loaf of bread.
A bit of an exaggeration, also one should note that the
hyper-inflation ended and Germany got a stable currency
again in early 1924, i.e. nine years before Hitler came to
power. (The rise of the Nazi party had more to do with
the mass unemployment in the wake of the world recession
1929 and after). Also, Hitler did not really transform German
economy as much as you might think -- early in his regime
he did not do much more positive than implement projects
which had already been framed by the last governments
of the Weimar Republic. (Unless you see the outlawing of
trade unions as something positive -- the transferral of
property owned by Jews to Nazi supporters and opportunist
profiteers also is not what I'd call a transformation of the
economy).
Tilman
"Many Bothans died to bring us this information."
Menshevik
>enterprise, and this isn't tyrannical?
>
>
Come to think of it, the US never provided compensation for
the loyalists whose property was seized during the
American Revolution.
Jerry Jones
But why make Magneto this way at all? Magneto was portrayed in the
way you described when he was first created, he didn't regress,
he was already that way. But over the years he himself saw he was
becoming another Hitler and startd to become his own character,
not just a comicbook version of real life dictators. It is
easy to look around the Marvel universe and find supervillians with
some type of warped philosophy to justify their actions, doing the
same with Magneto now doesn't add any depth to the character it
just makes him generic.
Jerry Jones
Steven Dumont
Justin Samuels wrote:
> Cuba is in decay, and it is an impoverrished nation which could be
> wealthier if it didn't have a senile imbecile for a leader!
>
> Rhetoric whether from the right or left, doesn't feed families. if Castro
> was willing to work out plans to return confiscated properties, etc, and
> have hte mebargo against Cuba ended, Cuba not only would make considerable
> money from tourism, they would make money from oil.(there is oil in and in
> the seas around Cuba).
You are wrong. Cuba is not impoverished. Their standard od living is
not the same as in North America or in Europe but that doesn't make them
impoverished. Any Cuban will tell you that if you see a homeless person
over there it's because they don't want to work. Cuba is not in decay.
It is their custom not to tear down old buildings and if that makes it
look like ruins to you you are under a misconception. My parents just
got back from Cuba a month ago. They said that it was incredible.
Where are you getting your information from?
Steve
Justin Samuels
He was his own character even then.
It is
> easy to look around the Marvel universe and find supervillians with
> some type of warped philosophy to justify their actions, doing the
> same with Magneto now doesn't add any depth to the character it
> just makes him generic.
Things simply did not work out, in his mind, when he tried the gentler path.
His using force to get what he wanted has worked out . Therefore he will
continue to what works for him.
>
> Jerry Jones
Justin Samuels
"Steven Dumont" <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:3AD065EE...@mnsi.net...
Did your parents live in Cuba? A two week, or a three week vacation isn't
the same as living there. Nevertheless, articles written in the New York
Times, in the UN clearly talk about the impoverished conditions in Cuba. It
is a poor nation, and one which has little economic growth. If Castro
weren't so into his rhetoric, Cuba would be a much more developed economy.
Castro, like previous and even current Latin American populists suc has Hugo
Chavez of Venezuela all claim to have the best interests of the poor at
hand.(Provided they do as they are told.)
By the way, people in Paraguay work . Even those living in shanty towns. It
doesn't mean Paraguay isn't a poor nation. Cuba has a low standard of
living, a low GDP, little to no economic growth an influence etc. It is
poor.
I am sure your parents vacation was incredible. They probably had fun on
the beach. THis does not mean that Cuba isn't a poor nation! Tourists
often concentrate in certain areas of a nation, and often miss object
poverty up under their noses.
>
> Steve
The Ma-jin
>>initial concept.
So should Rogue still be a villain? Why was Marrow and X-Woman? Why did
Professor X nurture Onslaught? .....characters grow and change. They don't just
remain cardboad cutouts. At least they shouldn't. His first appearance in X-Men
was what? 30 years ago? How many comics were on the market? Also, as has been
pointed out, pretty much ALL villains back then were pretty much generic
take-over-the-world-wannabee-tyrants or petty-troublemakers at the street
level. Things have since evovled.
I'll stick to my theory. In *my* mind, I'll use that "magneto has literally
gone psycho" theory to come to terms with Lobdells current Magneto. It 1) makes
perfect sense and 2) it makes it easier to swallow, and isn't as distracting
whan I look at it with that slant.
F®eud
Steven Dumont wrote:
> Any Cuban will tell you that if you see a homeless person
> over there it's because they don't want to work.
People will tell you the same thing here (US). Doesn't make it true.
Jerry Jones
No, he was just like every other silver age take-over-the-villian,
an interchangable Dr Doom clone. There was nothing that made him
unique as far as motivations were concern.
>
> It is
> > easy to look around the Marvel universe and find supervillians with
> > some type of warped philosophy to justify their actions, doing the
> > same with Magneto now doesn't add any depth to the character it
> > just makes him generic.
>
> Things simply did not work out, in his mind, when he tried the gentler path.
> His using force to get what he wanted has worked out . Therefore he will
> continue to what works for him.
Just because Xaviers way didn't work out for him doesn't he should
automatically go back to his old psycho days, which by the way hasn't
worked for him either.
Jerry Jones
Menshevik
>
>>>Hitler's rise cant be compared to Stalin and Castro anyway. Hitler
>>>transformed the German economy after they were forced to use
>>>wheelbarrows to carry enough money to buy a loaf of bread.
>>
>>A bit of an exaggeration, also one should note that the
>>hyper-inflation ended and Germany got a stable currency
>>again in early 1924, i.e. nine years before Hitler came to
>>power.
>
>even had a lovely photo of the wheelbarrow concerned.
I don't deny that they used wheelbarrows, but that you
needed a wheelbarrow full of money to pay for a loaf of
bread. The only picture I saw of a man with a wheelbarrow full
of money was that of a man who had picked up the weekly
wages for the employees of a firm from the bank
on pay day.
>> (The rise of the Nazi party had more to do with
>>the mass unemployment in the wake of the world recession
>>1929 and after). Also, Hitler did not really transform German
>>economy as much as you might think -- early in his regime
>>he did not do much more positive than implement projects
>>which had already been framed by the last governments
>>of the Weimar Republic. (Unless you see the outlawing of
>>trade unions as something positive -- the transferral of
>>property owned by Jews to Nazi supporters and opportunist
>>profiteers also is not what I'd call a transformation of the
>>economy).
>
>I obviously don't see any of the last paragraph as positive and
>doesn't reflect anything I was saying.
I was merely trying to think of what Hitler did which could
be described as "transforming the economy" as opposed from
profiting from an economic recovery that may well have
occurred without his intervention.
I agree that it was not all
>fixed by Hitler but the economy did improve under him and people tend
>to be happy when they go from abject poverty to comparative wealth. I
>doubt whether Bill Clinton or Tony Blair had that much to do with the
>booming economy of the last 5 years or so but it gets reflected in the
>polls and meant that Clinton could get away with any misdemeanours as
>long as people had jobs to go to and money to spend.
Lazarus
"Justin Samuels" <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zsZz6.11243$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Steven Dumont" <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
> news:3AD065EE...@mnsi.net...
> >
> >
> > Justin Samuels wrote:
> >
> > > Cuba is in decay, and it is an impoverrished nation which could be
> > > wealthier if it didn't have a senile imbecile for a leader!
> > >
> > > Rhetoric whether from the right or left, doesn't feed families. if
> Castro
> > > was willing to work out plans to return confiscated properties, etc,
and
> > > have hte mebargo against Cuba ended, Cuba not only would make
> considerable
> > > money from tourism, they would make money from oil.(there is oil in
and
> in
> > > the seas around Cuba).
> >
> >
> > You are wrong. Cuba is not impoverished. Their standard od living is
> > not the same as in North America or in Europe but that doesn't make them
> > impoverished. Any Cuban will tell you that if you see a homeless person
> > over there it's because they don't want to work. Cuba is not in decay.
> > It is their custom not to tear down old buildings and if that makes it
> > look like ruins to you you are under a misconception. My parents just
> > got back from Cuba a month ago. They said that it was incredible.
> > Where are you getting your information from?
>
Cuba is a lovely place, but it's also got a burgeoning AIDS problem and
generally low standerd of living.
> Did your parents live in Cuba? A two week, or a three week vacation isn't
> the same as living there. Nevertheless, articles written in the New York
> Times, in the UN clearly talk about the impoverished conditions in Cuba.
It
> is a poor nation, and one which has little economic growth. If Castro
> weren't so into his rhetoric, Cuba would be a much more developed economy.
>
UN also outlines why it's in such a state, the same reports leading to
France's request for the embargo against the country to be ended. Oddly
enough America was the only country to state objections to said proposal.
> Castro, like previous and even current Latin American populists suc has
Hugo
> Chavez of Venezuela all claim to have the best interests of the poor at
> hand.(Provided they do as they are told.)
>
Yes, much better the U.S backed military governement in Cuba has stayed on.
That was just like Castro's goverenment only without the education
helathcare and with a couple thousand more deaths a year of instigators.
> By the way, people in Paraguay work . Even those living in shanty towns.
It
> doesn't mean Paraguay isn't a poor nation. Cuba has a low standard of
> living, a low GDP, little to no economic growth an influence etc. It is
> poor.
But looking at it from a purely economic perspective, they're not poor
because of socialism or Castro's direct leadership, they're poor because of
the trade embargo they're landed with thanks to Americas intolerance of
their leadership.
Lazarus
"Menshevik" <mens...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010408140815...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
>
> >> (The rise of the Nazi party had more to do with
> >>the mass unemployment in the wake of the world recession
> >>1929 and after). Also, Hitler did not really transform German
> >>economy as much as you might think -- early in his regime
> >>he did not do much more positive than implement projects
> >>which had already been framed by the last governments
> >>of the Weimar Republic. (Unless you see the outlawing of
> >>trade unions as something positive -- the transferral of
> >>property owned by Jews to Nazi supporters and opportunist
> >>profiteers also is not what I'd call a transformation of the
> >>economy).
> >
> >I obviously don't see any of the last paragraph as positive and
> >doesn't reflect anything I was saying.
>
> I was merely trying to think of what Hitler did which could
> be described as "transforming the economy" as opposed from
> profiting from an economic recovery that may well have
> occurred without his intervention.
>
He had that in common with many other tyrents such as Billy Bo Bob Clinton.
Ba dum tisch, thank you folks I'm here all week. He did rebuild the Autobahn
I guess, and stopped them paying the exorbitant money that the Versaille
treaty demanded of the Germans. Also, if he'd been a better leader, he would
have ruled Europe, so longterm he would have vastly improved the German
economy. Probably by raping Poland but there you go.
> I agree that it was not all
> >fixed by Hitler but the economy did improve under him and people tend
> >to be happy when they go from abject poverty to comparative wealth. I
> >doubt whether Bill Clinton or Tony Blair had that much to do with the
> >booming economy of the last 5 years or so but it gets reflected in the
> >polls and meant that Clinton could get away with any misdemeanours as
> >long as people had jobs to go to and money to spend.
Yeah and voters get what they deserve. When I'm in charge it'll all change.
Steven Dumont
Justin Samuels wrote:
>
> > You are wrong. Cuba is not impoverished. Their standard od living is
> > not the same as in North America or in Europe but that doesn't make them
> > impoverished. Any Cuban will tell you that if you see a homeless person
> > over there it's because they don't want to work. Cuba is not in decay.
> > It is their custom not to tear down old buildings and if that makes it
> > look like ruins to you you are under a misconception. My parents just
> > got back from Cuba a month ago. They said that it was incredible.
> > Where are you getting your information from?
>
> Did your parents live in Cuba? A two week, or a three week vacation isn't
> the same as living there. Nevertheless, articles written in the New York
> Times, in the UN clearly talk about the impoverished conditions in Cuba. It
> is a poor nation, and one which has little economic growth. If Castro
> weren't so into his rhetoric, Cuba would be a much more developed economy.
While I can certainly say that my parents aren't experts on Cuba, I
merely used their information as a support to what I've already learned
about Cuba. If you actually believe all that you read in the paper (let
alone an American paper on a topic such as Cuba) you are being misled.
I have yet to read anything from an American publication that is not
incredibly biased towards Cuba (for reasons that we all know). My
parents did travel all around Cuba not just to the tourist spots. They
were even allowed into a school while classes were going on and while
the schools even have computers and the children are all in clothes that
are most likely cleaner than what you or I wear. They don't place a lot
of value in the same things that a lot of Western culture does but they
are not nearly the poor country that most people think. And just so you
know I have also studied this in University so I'm not basing my facts
on a two week vacation.
Steve
Lazarus
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:45:16 GMT, "Lazarus"
> <oompa_...@esatclear.ie> wrote:
>
>
> >> I agree that it was not all
> >> >fixed by Hitler but the economy did improve under him and people tend
> >> >to be happy when they go from abject poverty to comparative wealth. I
> >> >doubt whether Bill Clinton or Tony Blair had that much to do with the
> >> >booming economy of the last 5 years or so but it gets reflected in the
> >> >polls and meant that Clinton could get away with any misdemeanours as
> >> >long as people had jobs to go to and money to spend.
> >
> >Yeah and voters get what they deserve. When I'm in charge it'll all
change.
> >
> the free?:o)
>
>
It's not essential, but if you don't leave as one you're viewed as a
disappointment. You get bonus points for stealing unusual furniture
fixtures. In addition to the Clintons appropriating everything they could
get their hands on, I heard Barbara Bush was caught taking a presidentially
sealed microwave out the back door on her last night.
BlakGard
>> wealthier if it didn't have a senile imbecile for a leader!
>>
>> Rhetoric whether from the right or left, doesn't feed families. if Castro
>> was willing to work out plans to return confiscated properties, etc, and
>> have hte mebargo against Cuba ended, Cuba not only would make considerable
>> money from tourism, they would make money from oil.(there is oil in and in
>> the seas around Cuba).
>
>You are wrong. Cuba is not impoverished.
"Poverty" is one of those words that means different things to different
people. By American and most Eurpoean standards, it could easily (and honestly)
be considered "impoverished." However, Cuba does boast an economic growth rate
of over 6% (according to the US State Department) -- this cannot be claimed by
many countries. Despite this, the living conditions of its people have not
improved for over 10 years (since the Russian economic collapse). Castro has
opened the country significantly during this time (out of necessity) and
allowed foreign investment (which is still extremely risky for investors).
BlakGard
>>path. His using force to get what he wanted has worked out .
>>Therefore he will continue to what works for him.
>
>Just because Xaviers way didn't work out for him doesn't he should
>automatically go back to his old psycho days, which by the way hasn't
>worked for him either.
Well, he now has a country of followers. I'd say that's working for him.
Although it could be argued that he's only recently become psycho, and the
results of this condition haven't fully been realized. You're probably right in
that they won't work for him.
F®eud
Lazarus wrote:
>
> It's not essential, but if you don't leave as one you're viewed as a
> disappointment. You get bonus points for stealing unusual furniture
> fixtures. In addition to the Clintons appropriating everything they could
> get their hands on, I heard Barbara Bush was caught taking a presidentially
> sealed microwave out the back door on her last night.
The only thing I heard the Clinton's took were all the "W" keys from the
computer keyboards. A stroke of genius as far as pranks go.
Kiki
: He had that in common with many other tyrents such as Billy Bo Bob Clinton.
: Ba dum tisch, thank you folks I'm here all week. He did rebuild the Autobahn
Um, cept it was a stupid joke cause you're tryign to put Clinton in
withpeople like Stalin and hitler (who we are talking about). Sorry, but
you are cheapening the atrocties both stalin and Hitler did if you think
Clinton even comes near those two in being a tyrant. Hell... Clinton never
even forced us to make him our leader, this coutnry voted him in.
: I guess, and stopped them paying the exorbitant money that the Versaille
: treaty demanded of the Germans. Also, if he'd been a better leader, he would
: have ruled Europe, so longterm he would have vastly improved the German
: economy. Probably by raping Poland but there you go.
He had a good economy only through taking other people's property and
making people blame other people for their problems. What happens when
that slows down and he really hast o come up with a real economical plan
other than take other people's property? And what happens when he finally
rids himself of all people to blame... who does he get to rally his
troops then. Hitler wasn't all that great for the economy. Maybe for the
short term, but not the long term. His plan would have lost steam over
time. As for taking over other countries, this earth only has a limited
amount of land, what happens when he has no more land to conquer? A good
wartime leader does not necessarily make a good peace leader (that was a
big problem with Stalin, he was great for wartime, but he sucked when he
had to focus on something else besides beating another country. He didn't
know how to run a country without being brutal).
Tigress
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Justin Samuels
"The Ma-jin " <mad...@aol.comVEGETA> wrote in message
news:20010408100820...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> >>Any portrayal that depicts him acting otherwise is a contradiction of
his
> >>initial concept.
>
> So should Rogue still be a villain? Why was Marrow and X-Woman? Why did
> Professor X nurture Onslaught? .....characters grow and change. They don't
just
> remain cardboad cutouts. At least they shouldn't. His first appearance in
X-Men
> was what? 30 years ago? How many comics were on the market? Also, as has
been
> pointed out, pretty much ALL villains back then were pretty much generic
> take-over-the-world-wannabee-tyrants or petty-troublemakers at the street
> level. Things have since evovled.
>
> I'll stick to my theory. In *my* mind, I'll use that "magneto has
literally
> gone psycho" theory to come to terms with Lobdells current Magneto. It 1)
makes
> perfect sense and 2) it makes it easier to swallow, and isn't as
distracting
> whan I look at it with that slant.
>
Magneto is not insane. There is a difference between someone who is willing
to kill others simply because they stand in his way and someone who is
insane. Magneot understands the consequences of his actions, etc. No court
could possibly find him insane. Legally insane peopel are those who do not
understand what their actions may lead to. An insane villain would be
Legion, who didn't understand how traveling back in time couldhave disatrous
consequences for the time stream.
Justin Samuels
"BlakGard" <blak...@aol.comspiracy> wrote in message
news:20010408230154...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> >>Things simply did not work out, in his mind, when he tried the gentler
> >>path. His using force to get what he wanted has worked out .
> >>Therefore he will continue to what works for him.
> >
> >Just because Xaviers way didn't work out for him doesn't he should
> >automatically go back to his old psycho days, which by the way hasn't
> >worked for him either.
>
> Well, he now has a country of followers. I'd say that's working for him.
> Although it could be argued that he's only recently become psycho, and the
> results of this condition haven't fully been realized. You're probably
right in
> that they won't work for him.
He isn't psycho. He is brutal, ruthless, vicious even. But not insane. Not
every cruel person is insane, and most insane people do not hurt others.
Justin Samuels
All sourced of info are biased.
> I have yet to read anything from an American publication that is not
> incredibly biased towards Cuba (for reasons that we all know).
All sources of info are incredibly biased.
My
> parents did travel all around Cuba not just to the tourist spots. They
> were even allowed into a school while classes were going on and while
> the schools even have computers and the children are all in clothes that
> are most likely cleaner than what you or I wear.
People all around the world have always known how to wash clothes, this has
nothing do with poverty as water is generally free . Or it doesn't cost much
if there is a utility bill.
They don't place a lot
> of value in the same things that a lot of Western culture
Cuba speaks Spanish, a European(Western language). Communism and socialism
are European(ie, Western) movements.
does but they
> are not nearly the poor country that most people think.
Then no country in the world is poor. Every country in the world has at
least some schools with internet access. Every country in the world has
people with clean clothes. A country does not have bags of bones in large
numbers to be poor . Cuba is an underdeveloped economy dependant on tourism
and a few other areas such as sugar cane. it is a very poor nation.
And just so you
> know I have also studied this in University so I'm not basing my facts
> on a two week vacation.
The figures below are taken from the Wall Street Journal. You're likely
going to claim this info is biased, but then if it I ask you to present
figures that challenge this info.
"For that matter, Cuba's international payment problems suggest it isn't the
most reliable credit risk. France, Italy and South Africa have all recently
shut down credit programs for the purchase of everything from wheat to
engine parts based on Cuban payment defaults. Chile is owed some $20 million
for fish exports. With Mexico, Cuba is in arrears on about $400 million of
commercial credits. Cuba's foreign debt is estimated at $11 billion,
excluding its Soviet debt.
Cuba's cash shortfall is partly attributable to its struggling tourism and
sugar industries. Though tourism revenues were an estimated $1.8 billion
last year, the industry did little better than break even, industry watchers
say."
Tourist revenues of 1.8 billion dollars is nothing, and that is one of
Cuba's biggest money makers. Compared to money coming it, it seems Cuba has
a high ratio of debt. This is a poor nation and I am talking about economic
figures. Not political rhethoric, but the numbers. The US Economy is
estimated a 9 trillion. We have a high GDP. Cuba has a very low GDP, even
per capita.
>
> Steve
Justin Samuels
> everything, probably more than an article in Newsweek does though.
> Travel isn't restricted there and contact with the local population is
> higher than it is in places like Spain. The economy is actually
> changing, since they no longer receive subsidy from the Soviets they
> have turned to tourism which is growing at a rate of double the
> tourists every year. Many people are choosing to go there since it
> doesn't have the crime rates of other Carribean islands.
Tourist in Cuba doesn't bring in vast sums of money. Castro has yet to
privatize any state owned industry. There is a black market there, one the
government is concerned with brining under control.
Justin Samuels
"Lazarus" <oompa_...@esatclear.ie> wrote in message
news:8M3A6.24990$PF4....@news.iol.ie...
> >
> Yes, much better the U.S backed military governement in Cuba has stayed
on.
> That was just like Castro's goverenment only without the education
> helathcare and with a couple thousand more deaths a year of instigators.
>
In Castro's Cuba, social classes exist there as well, you have Castro's
military elite and then the rest of the population. How many Cubans not
politically connected can simply fly to all the places he has flown to? Any
American with $$$$ can go where he or she pleases.
> But looking at it from a purely economic perspective, they're not poor
> because of socialism or Castro's direct leadership, they're poor because
of
> the trade embargo they're landed with thanks to Americas intolerance of
> their leadership.
The trade embargo is there because of confiscated property. All he has do
is give it back. What good is this so called education doing people in Cuba
when standard of living remains low? Well, with impoverished conditions in
Cuba, it appears more and more young peopel are engaging in the world's
oldest profession. This profession because particularly common where
tourist from wealthy nations come to an underdeveloped economy with few
other options to make money.
Cubans are as interested as making money as people elsewhere. Castro's
regime and supporters merely supress opposition.
F®eud
Justin Samuels wrote:
I would just like to say that I'm just so thankful I don't have to wander over
to the Cuba newsgroup to be able to take in all this information.
Thank you all. Really.
Justin Samuels
"BlakGard" <blak...@aol.comspiracy> wrote in message
> >> Cuba is in decay, and it is an impoverrished nation which could be
> >> wealthier if it didn't have a senile imbecile for a leader!
> >>
> >> Rhetoric whether from the right or left, doesn't feed families. if
Castro
> >> was willing to work out plans to return confiscated properties, etc,
and
> >> have hte mebargo against Cuba ended, Cuba not only would make
considerable
> >> money from tourism, they would make money from oil.(there is oil in and
in
> >> the seas around Cuba).
> >
> >You are wrong. Cuba is not impoverished.
>
> "Poverty" is one of those words that means different things to different
> people. By American and most Eurpoean standards, it could easily (and
honestly)
> be considered "impoverished." However, Cuba does boast an economic growth
rate
> of over 6% (according to the US State Department) -- this cannot be
claimed by
> many countries.
Much of this growth is due contraband, other forms of organized crime ,and
prostitution. Cuba is becoming known as a place can get alid for not much
money on vacation, particulary for those ugly Canadians or Europeans who
can't get any in their home nations.
Despite this, the living conditions of its people have not
> improved for over 10 years (since the Russian economic collapse). Castro
has
> opened the country significantly during this time (out of necessity) and
> allowed foreign investment (which is still extremely risky for investors).
The so called foriegn investment is typically joined venture formed with the
Cuban government. Most of the potential salry is paid to the Cuban
government.
And no large multinational that does business in the US invests in Cuba
because of the Helms/Burton act. It doesn't matter with the companiies's
headquarters are in Europe ,South America, Mexico, Canada, Asia, etc, if
they have significant operations in the US, they can not do business in
Cuba.
Justin Samuels
> house to live in, health care, education and a job to go to.
So everyone is artifically kept at the same level of mediocrity by the Cuban
government? Everyone has a "job", but no the freedom to open up any kind of
business he or she wants to? If someone wishes to do research independant
of the Cuban government in Cuba, could he? I think not!
This is why socialism and communism fail. Such societies are kept stagnant,
by regimes who apparently think of peopel as industrial machines whose
existance is there merely to perform "jobs". Not to purse what he or she
pleases or where life takes him.
That's a
> a step up on just about any comparable central American or Carribean
> country. It's certainly a severe step up from places like Mexico City
> which we should be comparing it to and not 1st world countries like
> the US or UK.
Mexico has a bigger GDP than Cuba, as does Brazil. Brazil is the 9th
largest economy in the world.
Cuba has many of the same problems other third world nations. Due economic
restrictions on what people can and ncan not due, you've a thriving black
market, and a large prostitution sector.
And by the way, in any country, just because someone has a "job" doesn't
mean he or she is happy doing it. many positions are menial or even
degrading. Does Cuba offer easy escape from these kinds of positions?
>
> It's always claimed as a huge political victory that Cubans want to
> escape to Florida but that has little to do with anything other than
> economics. Millions of Mexicans and the EU is full of Eastern
> Europeans, Asians and Africans doing the same thing. A small area of
> the planet has a huge percentage of the cash and people of all types
> of regimes want in on that.
Of course.
>
>
>
> Cheers Drive!
>
> Gareth
Justin Samuels
"Kiki" <tig...@havoc.gtf.org> wrote in message
news:9are8n$8pb$2...@news-int.gatech.edu...
The same for Castro. He only knows to run a country constantly in a state
of war.
Jamie Rosen
>
> And no large multinational that does business in the US invests in Cuba
> because of the Helms/Burton act. It doesn't matter with the companiies's
> headquarters are in Europe ,South America, Mexico, Canada, Asia, etc, if
> they have significant operations in the US, they can not do business in
> Cuba.
And people say *communism* is responsibility for Cuba's financial
difficulties...
--
the other hand, the key is not that which is held within the hand but that
which is withheld by the head. There is no route too obscure to be
traveled by the weary, and no amount of difficulty too great to be heaped
upon the interpreter of thought fragments. The mind itself is now held in
Kiki
: He isn't psycho. He is brutal, ruthless, vicious even. But not insane. Not
: every cruel person is insane, and most insane people do not hurt others.
He's insnae or hypocritical in Xmen 111. Pick one. Personally, I like the
idea that he gets too much into his idea he doesn't see the problem with
it. The idea of enslaving or making people second rate citizens to stop
stuff like Hitler or hate groups has a lot of problems with it.
T8igress
Justin Samuels
> Justin Samuels <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> elaborated:
>
> : He isn't psycho. He is brutal, ruthless, vicious even. But not insane.
Not
> : every cruel person is insane, and most insane people do not hurt others.
>
> He's insnae or hypocritical in Xmen 111. Pick one. Personally, I like the
> idea that he gets too much into his idea he doesn't see the problem with
> it. The idea of enslaving or making people second rate citizens to stop
> stuff like Hitler or hate groups has a lot of problems with it.
That's cruel. Not insane. Every nation i nthe world has had second class
citizens and slaves. While doesn't make it right, that also doesn't make a
leader willing to impose suc hstrategies insane.
Justin Samuels
"Jamie Rosen" <dq...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:9b3ahd$oll$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> "Justin Samuels" (Justin...@nyc.rr.com) writes:
> >
> > And no large multinational that does business in the US invests in Cuba
> > because of the Helms/Burton act. It doesn't matter with the
companiies's
> > headquarters are in Europe ,South America, Mexico, Canada, Asia, etc, if
> > they have significant operations in the US, they can not do business in
> > Cuba.
>
> And people say *communism* is responsibility for Cuba's financial
> difficulties...
It is. While the US embargo certainly affects it, what important innovation
occurs in any Communist society? Or in the case of the Soviet Union, which
got the first satelite into space, were able to capitalize off of this / No,
Communism didn't allow it. People in Communist countries don't seem to be
fans of it . Even China is privatizing companies, real estate ,etc and
allowing foriegn competition. Communism is dead ,and is proven not to work.
Lacy3399
>> Well, he now has a country of followers. I'd say that's working for him.
>> Although it could be argued that he's only recently become psycho, and the
>> results of this condition haven't fully been realized. You're probably
>right in
>> that they won't work for him.
>
>He isn't psycho.
Yes, he is. He has been described by others as mad, he once described his
earlier times of extreme behavior as his "time of madness." Even Marvel has
described him as having severe PTSD and psychosis. Xavier has diagnosed him as
psychologically severely damaged, and Moira MacTaggert affirmed, that when he
overuses his powers, this causes a kind of psychosis.
>He is brutal, ruthless, vicious even. But not insane. Not
>every cruel person is insane, and most insane people do not hurt others.
Magnus was a good man, and his present behavior has come about after many
years of suffering and psychological disturbance. This is affirmed in the comic
books. You are using the generic term "insane" and mixing it up with the legal
use of the word. Magneto suffers from some severe psychological ailments, which
have caused him to do the things he is apparently doing now.
It's bad enough we have to see this great character written so pathetically
-- at least Marvel has provided us with a way out, by affirming in the comics
that Magneto has had a psychotic break and sufferes from PTSD as well as mental
weakness resulting from the overuse of his powers. This is simply in the
coninuity, Justin. Now, you are trying to deny this, in order to pronounce
Magneto as "brutal" or "cruel" because he was born that way? Sorry, that's not
the way the character has been presented in the comics.
Lacy
Lacy3399
Yes, he is, Justin. Is this your new mantra now? His mental instability has
been confirmed in comics going back to his earliest appearances. Jack Kirby
even drew him differently than the other villains, with those wide, insane
staring eyes. And other characters have commented, many times over the last 30+
years, that Magneto was "mad" or "psycho" or "insane."
>There is a difference between someone who is willing
>to kill others simply because they stand in his way and someone who is
>insane.
There are too many references in the comics, and by Marvel, to Magneto's
mental instability to mention. There is not necessarily any difference between
someone who is willing to kill, because they believe in a cause or another
stands in their way, and someone who suffers from a mental disorder.
Magneto is clearly grandiose, suffering from other delusions -- this is
obvious in his planning to attack the entire world, perhaps cause the very war
that he at one time wanted to avoid. Magneto's reactions are clearly
exaggerated; he's acting-out on a grand scale his own private nightmares.
Nothing about what he's doing is rational, or normal.
Except for a two-dimensional cardboard cutout bwahaha villain from some
cheap and stupid two-bit cartoon. Oh, yeah, then you can say that a villain
(like Shredder from the Ninja Turtles) is "sane" and also an idiot and
irrational and doomed by his repeated stupidity to play the role of cackling
villain over and over for the benefit of the heroes, so they have someone to
defeat and kick around.
But sorry, I give Marvel and the X-office more credit than that. The
character Magneto is too complex and wonderful to be reduced to that level.
>Magneot understands the consequences of his actions, etc. No court
>could possibly find him insane. Legally insane peopel are those who do not
>understand what their actions may lead to. An insane villain would be
>Legion, who didn't understand how traveling back in time couldhave disatrous
>consequences for the time stream.
The legal definition of "insane" or the "insanity defense" is different
from a clinical diagnosis of PTSD, or psychosis, or bipolar disorder. But even
so, Magneto most certainly could use the insanity defense! He doesn't
understant the consequences of his actions, and that's apparent in the comics!
His actions are foolish and illogical -- he's not thinking ratonally at all, by
taking the mutates and mutants of Genosha and declaring war on the entire
world. In order to secure the safety of mutants? You have to rule the world,
destroy humanity, when mutants *are* human? When mutants are born to human
parents? Magneto is either a moron, or he's delusional and psychotic, if he
continues to believe as he does now.
In fact, the more you think about it, the more obvious it becomes that
something has happened to his mind. The times when he was calm, and thinking
rationally -- he was healed, in a manner of speaking -- he was able to
reality-check and undertand how damaging and irrational his past actions were.
(As when he gives that very moving speech to Rachel Summers, in UXM # 196)
("No, I am no hero, merely a man ... who has seen and done and endured what can
never be forgotten ... or forgiven.")
Magneto is a violent man, and this violence stems from his time at
Auschwitz no doubt. A lot of people are violent in nature, but they are able to
either channel or control their violent urges. When someone who has endured
horrible violence and has learned that violence is the answer to solving
problems, develops bipolar disorder for example, or a psychotic disorder, that
person then can become extremely violent when manic or psychotic.
It's a combination of your experiences, your modeling, your personality,
and your brain chemistry. And Magneto has been shown -- in the comics,
confirmed by characters and described by Marvel bographical info -- to have a
history of violence, to have been raised at Auschwitz and modeled his behavior
on that of his oppressors, to have a variety of personality traits such as
extreme pride and paranoia, and above all, to have some serious psychological
disorders, such as PTSD and his powers-induced psychotic symptoms.
Lacy
Justin Samuels
> >Magneto is not insane.
>
> Yes, he is, Justin. Is this your new mantra now? His mental
instability has
> been confirmed in comics going back to his earliest appearances. Jack
Kirby
> even drew him differently than the other villains, with those wide, insane
> staring eyes. And other characters have commented, many times over the
last 30+
> years, that Magneto was "mad" or "psycho" or "insane."
No, he is not. Any villain in Marvel is going to be called insane.
>
>
> >There is a difference between someone who is willing
> >to kill others simply because they stand in his way and someone who is
> >insane.
>
> There are too many references in the comics, and by Marvel, to
Magneto's
> mental instability to mention. There is not necessarily any difference
between
> someone who is willing to kill, because they believe in a cause or another
> stands in their way, and someone who suffers from a mental disorder.
Apocalypse, Sinister ,etc have all been called insame. They are not.
> Magneto is clearly grandiose, suffering from other delusions -- this
is
> obvious in his planning to attack the entire world, perhaps cause the very
war
> that he at one time wanted to avoid. Magneto's reactions are clearly
> exaggerated; he's acting-out on a grand scale his own private nightmares.
> Nothing about what he's doing is rational, or normal.
He is making a bid for power. Jeffrey Dahmer, by the way, was not insane.
SOme people in real life are simply murderers.
> Except for a two-dimensional cardboard cutout bwahaha villain from
some
> cheap and stupid two-bit cartoon. Oh, yeah, then you can say that a
villain
> (like Shredder from the Ninja Turtles) is "sane" and also an idiot and
> irrational and doomed by his repeated stupidity to play the role of
cackling
> villain over and over for the benefit of the heroes, so they have someone
to
> defeat and kick around.
No, I think Marvel simply pulled that noble villain crap as far as it could
go . At one point thewy trying to claim that every villain had this
strategic story of childhood abuse/trama. Not every mean or cruel person
has been abused.
> But sorry, I give Marvel and the X-office more credit than that. The
> character Magneto is too complex and wonderful to be reduced to that
level.
He never was. You just liked him better as a headmaster. But when I
wonderful and complex, I will read a book.
>
> >Magneot understands the consequences of his actions, etc. No court
> >could possibly find him insane. Legally insane peopel are those who do
not
> >understand what their actions may lead to. An insane villain would be
> >Legion, who didn't understand how traveling back in time couldhave
disatrous
> >consequences for the time stream.
>
> The legal definition of "insane" or the "insanity defense" is
different
> from a clinical diagnosis of PTSD, or psychosis, or bipolar disorder. But
even
> so, Magneto most certainly could use the insanity defense! He doesn't
> understant the consequences of his actions, and that's apparent in the
comics!
> His actions are foolish and illogical -- he's not thinking ratonally at
all, by
> taking the mutates and mutants of Genosha and declaring war on the entire
> world. In order to secure the safety of mutants?
In order to secure the safety of Jews, a group of zionist declared Isreal a
Jeiwsh state in 1948.
You have to rule the world,
> destroy humanity, when mutants *are* human? When mutants are born to human
> parents? Magneto is either a moron, or he's delusional and psychotic, if
he
> continues to believe as he does now.
All humans share common ancestry, yet we masacre each other, and have done
so through history.
>
> In fact, the more you think about it, the more obvious it becomes that
> something has happened to his mind. The times when he was calm, and
thinking
> rationally -- he was healed, in a manner of speaking -- he was able to
> reality-check and undertand how damaging and irrational his past actions
were.
> (As when he gives that very moving speech to Rachel Summers, in UXM # 196)
> ("No, I am no hero, merely a man ... who has seen and done and endured
what can
> never be forgotten ... or forgiven.")
The change was simply due different writers at different times. And it was
Claremont who restored magneto to villainy.
>
> Magneto is a violent man, and this violence stems from his time at
> Auschwitz no doubt. A lot of people are violent in nature, but they are
able to
> either channel or control their violent urges. When someone who has
endured
> horrible violence and has learned that violence is the answer to solving
> problems, develops bipolar disorder for example, or a psychotic disorder,
that
> person then can become extremely violent when manic or psychotic.
> It's a combination of your experiences, your modeling, your
personality,
> and your brain chemistry. And Magneto has been shown -- in the comics,
> confirmed by characters and described by Marvel bographical info -- to
have a
> history of violence, to have been raised at Auschwitz and modeled his
behavior
> on that of his oppressors, to have a variety of personality traits such as
> extreme pride and paranoia,
Which doesn't make one insane. If that's the case every leader is insane.
Brian Fried
embargo of Genosha.
Genosha is being embargoed because it is a state with gross violations of
human rights and is not -- I repeat NOT -- a major trading partner of the
United States. (This is in contrast to China, which the US will never
embargo despite the fact that they are large violators of human rights).
Cuba is being embargoed in the real world because the US feels violated.
Castro was helped by the CIA and he returned the favour by kicking them
off the island, declaring communism, and seizing all American assets. To
this day, Americans believe that when Castro eventually leaves power they
will get all their assets back. (Needless to say it won't happen. And there's
no international court to plead their case to, because if there was then
the US would lose a good chunk of territory to Canadian loyalists that
actually have documentation that the US would return its seized property!)
Genosha is an allergory of the appartheid South Africa. Plain and simple.
Lacy3399
LOL! Yes he is, Justin. No he isn't. He is, he isn't, he is, he isn't.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
In point of fact, no other X-villain was written like Magneto. From
Lee/Kirby, through Roy Thomas and Neal Adams. For example, Magneto routinely
tried to kill himself, when his schemes failed. As at the end of UXM #63,
(Magneto on his knees, refusing to run away as his citadel collapses in flames
around him, "Yes .. too late .. to late! Too late to do anything ... but
DIE!.") Or, when the Inhumans defeat him in AMAZING ADVENTURES #10. All the
writers of the time described him as being "insane" or "mad" or having "insane
laughter," and even "twisted and tortured." (UXM #63 again.)
No other X-villain has been routinely described as such. Certainly not Mr.
Sinister -- although an argument can be made the Essex has antisocial
personality disorder.
But, in Magneto's case, it has been attested to time and time again.
>Apocalypse, Sinister ,etc have all been called insame. They are not.
I think Magneto has been shown to be mentally disturbed. He has been
called more than just "insane," although there's that too. And Apocalypse --
you don't think he's a little unhinged, as all the Externals would be after
living so many centuries? And Sinister -- well, you could make a strong case
for his being antisocial, or a sociopath. But in these cases, as in most cases
-- including that of Dr. Doom -- the heroes used "insane" as an exclamation
point. With Magneto, while that has occurred too, there have been many more
instances where the characters said more -- and Magneto's actions speak for
themselves.
And this is just the Silver Age, pre-Claremont Magneto.
>No, I think Marvel simply pulled that noble villain crap as far as it could
>go . At one point thewy trying to claim that every villain had this
>strategic story of childhood abuse/trama. Not every mean or cruel person
>has been abused.
I consider Magneto to be a noble villain, and Marvel hasn't been trying to
"pull anything." Magneto's history, and his relationship with Xavier, is what
it is. You consistently try to ignore the character as he exists, in
continuity, in order to dismiss the noble parts of him. Some at Marvel are
trying to do the same thing -- and that's what doesn't work. And if anyone is
pulling anything, it's writers and editors who continue to ignore Magneto's
entire history and psychology.
As I said, Magneto has been diagnosed, in the comics, on panel. We've even
seen some of the horrible nightmares that affect him, when Legion pulled out
his memories during the Legion Quest books. Xavier says, as far back as UXM
#161, that despite Magnus' outward appearance of calm, he suspects his friend
(when they were in Israel) is suffering from psychological damage as great as
Gabrielle Haller, who Xavier had cured of her catatonic trance.
Moira MacTaggert diagnosed Magneto in XM #2. Gabrielle Haller -- still
thinking the best of him -- made the clear distinction between: "...tyrannical
madman placing himself above the rights of humanity, or righteous zealot
fighting for a noble cause -- equality for rmutants...." (XMU #2.) She still
thought at the time, he was a righteous zealot.
And, we could have continued to think that was possible -- MAGNETO REX and
DARK SEDUCTION were leading to this "Eve of Destruction" poopoo but many fans
wanted to believe, like the character Gabby Haller, that Magneto was a zealot
who only wanted to secure a mutant homeland, and protect mutant rights.
Now, we're left with no other conclusion but that Magnus has become a
victim of his past (his PTSD included), his anger, his rage, and some severely
disordered (delusional, psychotic) thinking.
>He never was. You just liked him better as a headmaster. But when I
>wonderful and complex, I will read a book.
LOL! Okaaay, so you agree with me. Marvel's current depiction of Magneto is
silly, cartoon-like, shallow, but you like Marvel comics to be simplistic. If
you want to read about complex and wonderful characters, you'll read a book.
Well, to each his own! The very reason I read the X-books, and have been for
years and years (but not for much longer, if this keeps up), is the high
standard of characterization and storytelling that Claremont bequeathed us.
And, as for your other assertion, I think many of us have made it clear --
over and over and over again -- we do NOT like Magneto as headmaster. There is
Magneto of UXM #274, #275 or Magneto of XM vol.2 #1,#2, and #3. We do not see
him as a wuss, but as a complicated man, who has a conscience and could have
been a hero. A man with so much potential for good, who has been twisted over
the years by his hatred and pain.
>In order to secure the safety of Jews, a group of zionist declared Isreal a
>Jeiwsh state in 1948.
And some of them committed some fairly nasty terrorist acts, too. What is
your point? That the Israelis are now planning an assault on the world? That
the Israelis have declared themselves superior and will rule the world? You've
actually made my point for me, once again!
The parallel is apt, when you consider Magneto wanting a mutant homeland in
Genosha. It becomes insane, when Magneto throws all that aside -- all his
accomplishments (even his destruction of Carrion Cove could be explained as a
leader consolidating his rule over his country, for the greater good of his
mutant population), in order to RULE THE WORLD yet again? If that's not Magnus
gone psychotic, I don't know what is. (Well, maybe bad writing, but hey ... )
>All humans share common ancestry, yet we masacre each other, and have done
>so through history.
Indeed, and the Nazis declared themselves the "master race." Magneto is
doing the opposite, he is declaring mutants a separate species, that is born to
rule the world, and he knows from his own family history that this can't be
true. Magneto has identified so much with his imagery of mutants being a
separate species, precisely because of his genuine idealism, his one-time
belief in the good, that was crushed over and over by human cruelty.
Obviously, Magneto can't abide being human! Humans have inflicted upon him
such horrors. And, indeed he participated -- his human nature couldn't resist
trying to stay alive at any cost -- in the inhumanity when he was a member of
the Auschwitz Sonderkommando. He hates himself, as well as all things human. Or
rather, he hates the human part of himself.
The man is so complicated, so messed up -- but he's fascinating. It's the
only, I mean ONLY way Marvel can excuse the recent storyline -- and keep their
creative credability -- to say Magnus has just snapped under the weight of so
much horror, hate, betrayal.
>The change was simply due different writers at different times. And it was
>Claremont who restored magneto to villainy.
Don't know to what you're referring to. I'm giving you the history of the
character, quotes from the comics, to show you who the man, Magneto, is, as
presented in the X-books. Just like we talk about any of the characters.
As for Claremont restoring Magneto to villainhood, of course! That's what
a lot of us have been trying to tell you -- Claremont didn't mean to keep
Magneto as the "headmaster" -- it was a path for him to take, in order to
explore the character. The Magneto of XM vol. 2, #1 is quite magnificent,
actually.
>Which doesn't make one insane. If that's the case every leader is insane.
I've given you a detailed account of why Magneto is suffering from a
variety of mental disorders, and mental instability, including real-world facts
as to why people are who they are, and you say, "which doesn't make one insane
.... If that's the case, every leader is insane." How does what I said, lead to
this conclusion? You've lost me. How has every leader suffered being
machine-gunned with his family and buried alive? Being imprisoned in Auschwitz
and working in the crematoria? Trying to build a new life and having his
daughter burned to death before his eyes, and watching his beloved wife run
away from him in terror? And above all, how many leaders have developed
magnetic powers, that practically make him one with the earth's electromagnetic
field? I was trying to point out to you, how a violent childhood and being
raised in an environment where violence is the only solution to any problem,
helped shape Magneto. I was trying to explain to you, how PTSD can cause
psychotic breaks, and how Magneto's personality flaws, such as his paranoia and
arrogance, have contributed to is present state of mind.
Justin, you're cool, and I like reading your posts -- even to argue
against them -- so I hope I'm not coming off as too harsh or picky here. I
reread my posts of last night, and realize I came off as too aggressive. So, I
apologize. But I stand by my opinion, on Magneto's mental status.
Lacy
Justin Samuels
"Brian Fried" <bfr...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:9b49qi$mmc$4...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca...
> You can't connect the American embargo of Cuba with the Marvel Universe's
> embargo of Genosha.
I never did compare to the two. Reread my posts.
>
> Genosha is being embargoed because it is a state with gross violations of
> human rights and is not -- I repeat NOT -- a major trading partner of the
> United States. (This is in contrast to China, which the US will never
> embargo despite the fact that they are large violators of human rights).
>
> Cuba is being embargoed in the real world because the US feels violated.
> Castro was helped by the CIA and he returned the favour by kicking them
> off the island, declaring communism, and seizing all American assets.
Yes.
To
> this day, Americans believe that when Castro eventually leaves power they
> will get all their assets back. (Needless to say it won't happen.
If Cuba wants to have the embargo removed, they wil lcome to terms with the
US and with the Cuban refugees. This by the way doesn mean all assets will
be returned(I don't think anyone realistically expects that to happen) but
some form of agreement can be made.
And there's
> no international court to plead their case to, because if there was then
> the US would lose a good chunk of territory to Canadian loyalists that
> actually have documentation that the US would return its seized property!)
>
> Genosha is an allergory of the appartheid South Africa. Plain and simple.
No, that doesn't fit either. Humans could have mutant children, or mutants
could be genetically engineered. The Europeans in South Africa were
colonialists . The mutnats in geonsha were from the same stock as the
settlers.
Oppressed does not equal black, therefore Genosha does not fit as an
allegory of South Africa.
Kiki
: That's cruel. Not insane. Every nation i nthe world has had second class
: citizens and slaves. While doesn't make it right, that also doesn't make a
: leader willing to impose suc hstrategies insane.
You missed my entire point. It is not that he is willing to make slaves
and whatever. It's the fact he is doing this because he is sick of the
human race being cruel to itself. He has gone so far into his ideas he
can't even see the problems with them. That is insane.
Tigress
Paul O'Brien
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
>
>If Cuba wants to have the embargo removed, they wil lcome to terms with the
>US and with the Cuban refugees.
Or they could just wait for the US to realise that every other country
in the world thinks the blockade of Cuba is petty and moronic, and
give up and go home.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
Enthusiasm is an untrustworthy dictionary.
Justin Samuels
"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:RSLc5iA8...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
> In article <fpkB6.2446$l5.1...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>, Justin Samuels
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
> >
> >If Cuba wants to have the embargo removed, they wil lcome to terms with
the
> >US and with the Cuban refugees.
>
> Or they could just wait for the US to realise that every other country
> in the world thinks the blockade of Cuba is petty and moronic, and
> give up and go home.
That won't happen anytime soon, as those Americans who lost assets in Cuba,
and those Cubans who lost property in Cuba will do everything in their power
to maintain the embargo . The Bush administration certainly won't remove it,
nor would most current members of Congress.
And since when has any nation that currently holds the title of the world's
most powerful done anything by consensus? Britain certainly didn't during
the 1800s.
Paul O'Brien
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
>
>And since when has any nation that currently holds the title of the world's
>most powerful done anything by consensus?
In an era of globalisation, no one country can truly do what it wants.
Justin Samuels
> In article <oOnB6.2895$l5.1...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>, Justin Samuels
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
> >
> >And since when has any nation that currently holds the title of the
world's
> >most powerful done anything by consensus?
>
> In an era of globalisation, no one country can truly do what it wants.
We have always had globalization. European colonialism, The Roman empire,
The Arab and Ottom Empires, the empires which formed in Africa, Genis Khan's
conquest of much of Asia and Eastern Europe, were all globalization.
Smaller nations, such as those in El Salvador, Ecuador, Panama, and
Guatemala, have decided to use the US dollar as thir currency. THis means
that monetary policy is controled by the Federal Reserve here in the US.
Quite awhile ago, Argentina pegged it's peso tothe US dollar.
Globalization is and always had been, the spread of influence from more
powerful nations to smaller ones. Spanish companies have purhcased enormous
assets in Chile, while few Chilean companies are even known out of Chile.
Spain is now the biggest foriegn investor in Latin America.
Now, the biggest Latin America nations, Brazil, Mexico ,and Argentina, do
indeed have a number of large multinationals, many of whic have purchased
companies in other parts of the world, including the US and Europe. But
smaller nations suchas Chile simply see most of their companies being
purchased by foriegners, and even in Argentina the telecom industry is
largely owned by the Spanish and by US interests. The same wholes true of
Peru, Urugya, etc. Now, in Brazil while Spanish interests and US interest
do own big telecom companies, the Brazilians still have some big Brazilian
companies that are owned by Brazilians.
In regards to Cuba, it appears the things are happenning as always have
happenned, large nations are dominating smaller ones. Part of the reason
North Korea began ahvingtalkswith South Korea toreunite was due Chinese
pressure, as wanted the North Koreans to demand in exchange for
ultimatereunification to order US troops to go home.(leavig China without
the US for a rival for influence in Korea). Then there is China's bullying
of Taiwan, and they don't seem to give a damn what the rest of the world
thinks in regards to that.
Venezuela is threatening to ultimately invaded and conqueor Guyana, because
before England took it ,the Spanish claimed it. And if this somewhat got
approval from an US administration, Hugo Chavez would do it.
Brazil has basically said fuck you to European and Americna pharamceutical
companiesand breaks patents on drugs, as India does. These nations are able
to do because they are large and powerful enough to. Smaller nations would
and do feel more bullied.
Back to Cuba, the US embargo will remain in place, because putting it there
doesn't affect the US in the slightest, it is far more powerful than Cuba,
and this isn't going to change.
Globalization doesn't mean that nations are doing anthing by consenus(with
the possible exceptions of the European Union, but that's because you have
15 nations attempting to merge economically and politically).
In today's global era, we still have a numbr of brutal wars like in Angola,
and Colombia. The Arabs selling those non Muslims into slavery and having
the children raised as Arabs(in the Sudan and some other parts of the
Sahel), could be considered a form of globalization as well, as you are
eliminating a culture.
Brian Hance
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>That won't happen anytime soon, as those Americans who lost assets in Cuba,
>and those Cubans who lost property in Cuba will do everything in their power
>to maintain the embargo . The Bush administration certainly won't remove it,
>nor would most current members of Congress.
It's not even that. One of the BIG reasons that the embargo against
Cuba won't go away is that Cuban immigrants in the US *hate* Castro,
and that Cuban immigrants vote, god bless 'em, and they vote as a
block.
Most Americans, at least in my experiance, just don't really give a
shit. Cuba has been under the embargo for so long, it's just not an
issue for them any more.
Justin Samuels
"Brian Hance" <bha...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:3ad6a01...@news.primenet.com...
However, many of those Americans with political and/or economic influence,
are still in favor of maintaining the embargo. As are those in the pentagon
at hi levels who would still hold a grudge against Cuba.
>
Blackaddr
reaction...sorry
:)
>> >And since when has any nation that currently holds the title of the
>world's
>> >most powerful done anything by consensus?
>>
>> In an era of globalisation, no one country can truly do what it wants.
>
>We have always had globalization. European colonialism, The Roman empire,
>The Arab and Ottom Empires, the empires which formed in Africa, Genis
Khan's
>conquest of much of Asia and Eastern Europe, were all globalization.
With the difference that now we扉e got economic and political
interdependance. Countries and regions NEED each other and whatæ„€ even more
important, they all realize it. OK, the US (especially the Republican govt.)
think they can dominate the world, but they canæ„’ afford to loose their
partnerships. So if the US become completely isolated in their Cuba-policy,
they惻l give up the embargo.
>Globalization doesn't mean that nations are doing anthing by consenus(with
>the possible exceptions of the European Union, but that's because you have
>15 nations attempting to merge economically and politically).
And even the EU-politics are powerpolitics between (1) UK vs countries with
further integration, (2) Big countries vs the small ones and (3) Germany vs
France. Itæ„€ consensus for the small countries and Realpolitik for the big
ones.
By the way, as we are all being off-topic already: itæ„€ a terrible shame
Claremont has been kicked from the 2 core-X-books.
Blackaddr
Steven Dumont
Garjones wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:51:20 GMT, "Justin Samuels"
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Much of this growth is due contraband, other forms of organized crime ,and
> >prostitution. Cuba is becoming known as a place can get alid for not much
> >money on vacation, particulary for those ugly Canadians or Europeans who
> >can't get any in their home nations.
> >
> I'm sure it's cheaper for ugly Europeans to travel to Amsterdam or
> Hamburg actually.
Yeah, and besides Celine Dion we don't really have any ugly Canadians.
Steve
Jamie Dower
I've read his older work. Wordy, but good.
Nearly despised his recent run. Characters seemed to lose focus, lose
attitude. Suddenly characters who were much more silent were spouting off
randomly...and the way he pumped up Jean (who he once called his
favourite)...arg..anyhoo, I must sleep, and ranting will not help.
Jamie
Blackaddr <lope...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9b7nkj$2mrf$1...@news.kabelfoon.nl...
Arbitrator
Laura M. Parkinson <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote...
>
> mad...@aol.comVEGETA (The Ma-jin ) rhapsodized in blue:
>
> >Is he a f*cking dumbass? He hates humans because of slavery, and
> >Hitler and Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's
> >acting for mutants in the name of ending all of that. But he is doing
> >it by the same means that he (supposedly) despises.
>
> Short version? Because Lobdell's "writing" him. Period.
Hey now. This whole hypocritical gimmick of his started even under
Claremont's run (it became more pronounced toward the end, in the Savage
Land).
I find the concept to be interesting, really. I'm not sure why
writers feel they have to present every issue as shades of gray, where both
protagonists and antagonists are fighting over a difference of opinion and
have reasonable support for both sides. Magneto IS insane, and that
frustration piques my curiosity.
Of course, if that insanity goes TOO far, then it's just bad writing
(and that's an individually-drawn line). For example, the Neo's desire to
kill humanity because of the work of the High Evolutionary - that just makes
me feel like I missed 50 or so issues.
Justin Samuels
> reaction...sorry
> :)
>
> >> >And since when has any nation that currently holds the title of the
> >world's
> >> >most powerful done anything by consensus?
> >>
> >> In an era of globalisation, no one country can truly do what it wants.
> >
> >We have always had globalization. European colonialism, The Roman
empire,
> >The Arab and Ottom Empires, the empires which formed in Africa, Genis
> Khan's
> >conquest of much of Asia and Eastern Europe, were all globalization.
>
>
> With the difference that now we扉e got economic and political
> interdependance. Countries and regions NEED each other and whatæ„€ even
more
> important, they all realize it. OK, the US (especially the Republican
govt.)
> think they can dominate the world, but they canæ„’ afford to loose their
> partnerships. So if the US become completely isolated in their
Cuba-policy,
> they惻l give up the embargo.
But would the rest of the world think Cuba is sufficiently important to
break partnerships with the US? No.
In today's global world, China threatend to take Taiwan by force. Venezuela
threatend to invade Guyana because they claim that land back to the Spanish
colonial eras. Nations are stil lbreaking apart and conquoering each other.
Syra defeacto occupies Lebanon. Morocco defacto took over the Western
Sahara.
>
> >Globalization doesn't mean that nations are doing anthing by
consenus(with
> >the possible exceptions of the European Union, but that's because you
have
> >15 nations attempting to merge economically and politically).
>
>
> And even the EU-politics are powerpolitics between (1) UK vs countries
with
> further integration, (2) Big countries vs the small ones and (3) Germany
vs
> France. Itæ„€ consensus for the small countries and Realpolitik for the big
> ones.
Which goes back my saying the US isn't likely to remove the embargo on Cuba
nuntil it gets at least some of what it wants.
Nathan Mahney
>
> By the way, as we are all being off-topic already: itæ„€ a terrible shame
> Claremont has been kicked from the 2 core-X-books.
>
Huzzah, I was beginning to think I was the only one! I've gotta say, I
loved Claremont's run. Sure it was unfocussed and some of the plots just
never came together, but at least the characters were themselves again. It
actually felt like I was reading the X-Men again. I'm definitely looking
forward to X-Treme, much more so than the core books. It'll be good to see
what Chris can do with a single book again.
- Nathan Mahney -
Blackaddr
>
>I've read his older work. Wordy, but good.
I truely love period between the breakdown of the Australian team and the
end of the Shadow King saga. But not too many seem to agree with me on that
either...
>Nearly despised his recent run. Characters seemed to lose focus, lose
>attitude. Suddenly characters who were much more silent were spouting off
>randomly...and the way he pumped up Jean (who he once called his
>favourite)...arg..anyhoo, I must sleep, and ranting will not help.
The characters were at least finally interacting and evolving again. What I
hated about CCæ„€ second run was the plot being too unfocussed (especially
the Neo-stories). But that seems to have been editorial interference: the
two teams had to get together suddenly, the Neo-storyline had to be told in
a couple of issues less than planned...
CC can be a great storyteller, if heæ„€ given the space and time for it. But
he got too little on his 2nd run.
Btw: his planned Stryfe-storyline, in which Stryfe would扉e brainwashed the
whole Summers-family, seems cheesy. Would扉e liked to see it, however!
Blackaddr
The Ma-jin
> Claremont has been kicked from the 2 core-X-books.
Bleh. He was just given a 3rd book, which IS a core book, no matter what spin
you'll here.
===============================
You witness the saga, casualties and drama/
Life is a script, I'm not a actor but the author/
of a modern day opera, where the main character/
is presidential paper, the dominant, factor.
- (Inspektah Deck)
Blackaddr
Justin Samuels heeft geschreven in bericht ...
Itæ„€ all a question of whoæ„€ got the longest breath. Surely, the US will
probably get their way. On the other hand, with the US turning back to
isolationalism again (or at least acting in favor of themselves in stead of
the world communitiy) and economic relations between US-China and US-EU
deteriorating, will these countries automatically accept US foreign policy
as their own? Surely Britain will always follow the US, but many other
countries are finding their own ways.
>> >Globalization doesn't mean that nations are doing anthing by
>consenus(with
>> >the possible exceptions of the European Union, but that's because you
>have
>> >15 nations attempting to merge economically and politically).
>>
>>
>> And even the EU-politics are powerpolitics between (1) UK vs countries
>with
>> further integration, (2) Big countries vs the small ones and (3) Germany
>vs
>> France. Itæ„€ consensus for the small countries and Realpolitik for the
big
>> ones.
>
>Which goes back my saying the US isn't likely to remove the embargo on Cuba
>nuntil it gets at least some of what it wants.
Agreed. But China and the EU wonæ„’ join in, if they donæ„’ support the
embargo anymore. And if that happens the American embargo will loose much of
its impact.
Blackaddr
Lazarus
"Blackaddr" <lope...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9b9rem$1uma$1...@news.kabelfoon.nl...
I disagree. Personally I see a parting of the ways within 20 years, the
countries are simply growing further apart. Misile Shields, Death penalty,
Gun control and Willingness to take casualties in war are already driving a
wedge between the countries. More and more the U.K is siding with the U.S
simply because no other E.U countries will take military action. A more
hawkish approach by the Germans in particular, a successful E.U force and
further E.U intigration should finally end their overly close ties.
> >> >Globalization doesn't mean that nations are doing anthing by
> >consenus(with
> >> >the possible exceptions of the European Union, but that's because you
> >have
> >> >15 nations attempting to merge economically and politically).
> >>
> >>
> >> And even the EU-politics are powerpolitics between (1) UK vs countries
> >with
> >> further integration, (2) Big countries vs the small ones and (3)
Germany
> >vs
> >> France. Itæ„€ consensus for the small countries and Realpolitik for the
> big
> >> ones.
> >
> >Which goes back my saying the US isn't likely to remove the embargo on
Cuba
> >nuntil it gets at least some of what it wants.
>
>
> Agreed. But China and the EU wonæ„’ join in, if they donæ„’ support the
> embargo anymore. And if that happens the American embargo will loose much
of
> its impact.
>
I think the above is a gross simplification of E.U politics and national
motivations, but I already think the embargo has lost most of its
international effect. If a country other than the U.S wants to deal with
them they do, it just so happens that the logical trade partner for Cuba
(The U.S) won't. Other countries aren't holding back out of respect for the
U.S embargo, they just have no need to deal with Cuba.
Justin Samuels
"Garjones" <garj...@spamlessntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:p9hhdt8q04kgehntq...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:44:01 +0200, "Blackaddr" <lope...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Itæ„€ all a question of whoæ„€ got the longest breath. Surely, the US will
> >probably get their way. On the other hand, with the US turning back to
> >isolationalism again (or at least acting in favor of themselves in stead
of
> >the world communitiy) and economic relations between US-China and US-EU
> >deteriorating, will these countries automatically accept US foreign
policy
> >as their own? Surely Britain will always follow the US, but many other
> >countries are finding their own ways.
>
> products (i.e cigars) quite legally and travel there. The 'land of the
> free' doesn't allow you to enter countries that have a political
> viewpoint they don't agree with. How jealous I am of the freedom they
> have:o)
However, British and any foriegn companies that have business in the US will
get retailiation if they do business in Cuba. No major multinational with
interests in the US has set up shop in Cuba.
>
>
>
> Cheers Drive!
>
> Gareth
Lazarus
"Justin Samuels" <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:diaC6.733$%y5.5...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
do dealings with certain nations which included Cuba, and they were U.S
firms set up here. Seemed pathetic then as well.
Sean Curtin
>Stalin, and high crime rates, and discrimination. He's acting for mutants in
>the name of ending all of that. But he is doing it by the same means that he
>(supposedly) despises.
My favorite scene in Essential Uncanny X-Men #1 (don't remember the original
issue number) is the one where Magneto has Mastermind create illusionary
troops... ones that are visually identical to Nazi soldiers. And then, once he
gets a *real* army later in the issue, *they* look just like that too... very
jarring from a modern perspective.
-Sean Curtin
Will I. Noya
Lacy3399 wrote:
>> : My theory is this: Magneto has gone nuts. No, really. His cause has
>> overwhelmed
>> : him, and he's become psychotic and delusional. What if he gets his wish and
>>
>> I think that's the whole point though. Which I think is very interesting
>> if you ask me.
>
>
> I think it could be very interesting, if Lobdell actually references it
> this way. Unfortunately, I don't have the confidence that Scott L. will. There
> is evidence that Lobdell sees this "Dr. Evil with magnetic powers" as perfectly
> rational, sane. It seems, to him, Magneto is a racist who wants to conquer the
> world.
>
Does anyone have confidence in Lobdell to tell a good
story? Isn't this the same man who had Magnus crash
Illyana's funeral? Didn't Lob also have him attempt
to kill his own son? Lobdell should never, ever be
allowed to write Magneto again!
--Will, who loves Magnus because he has statues honoring
fallen mutants in his bases while Chuck can't even name
the damn Danger Room after poor Doug.
> Of course, there is the possibility that Lobdell just likes Magneto to be a
> raving bad-ass villain.
Which is why he shouldn't be allowed near the character.
23yrold3yrold
news:3ADA6E6D.2000802@lycosdotcom...
>
> Does anyone have confidence in Lobdell to tell a good story?
No. This latest story isn't changing my mind either.
--
Chris Barry
Is it May yet, mommy?
"After all, when one is serving bait, presentation is everything." -
Megatron
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Brian Fried
> Does anyone have confidence in Lobdell to tell a good
> story? Isn't this the same man who had Magnus crash
> Illyana's funeral? Didn't Lob also have him attempt
> to kill his own son? Lobdell should never, ever be
> allowed to write Magneto again!
Lobdell didn't "write" the crashing of Illyana's funeral, he scripted the
plot for the board of directors. As for having him try to kill Pietro..
when was that, exactly?
Loeb was supposed to write this story, not Lobdell. Marvel wanted him to
be the temporary writer until Morrison and Casey took over. It didn't work
out that way, and they took Lobdell off of GAMBIT & BISHOP and BLINK to
put him on these books. The basic plot - Magneto vs. the world - was
something Marvel had clearly been working up to anyway, what with their
changing the end of Fabian's MAGNETO: DARK SEDUCTION mini as well.
The idea behind this story is to (a) have something collectible in a trade
paperback, (b) be somewhat controversal and (c) most importantly, clean
the decks wide for Morrison and Casey to do something completely new and
different on these books.
Once you put that into perspective, the fact that what we've got is any
bit readable is amazing.
Arbitrator
Will I. Noya <willinoya@lycosdotcom> wrote...
>
> Does anyone have confidence in Lobdell to tell a good
> story? Isn't this the same man who had Magnus crash
> Illyana's funeral? Didn't Lob also have him attempt
> to kill his own son?
I thought it made sense. Magneto basically went insane during that
time, which I thought was highly appropriate considering the amount of power
he was handling at the time. It just made him nuts.
> Lobdell should never, ever be allowed to write
> Magneto again!
Granted, he made Magneto a bit more straightforward, as opposed to
Claremont's complex character who was constantly questioning himself, but at
the end of Claremont's run, after 30 years of Magneto vs. the X-Men, a
change was needed. You couldn't reboot the character so many times as had
been done in the past. Even Claremont had him return to his madman,
villainous roots circa UXM #275, where he pulped Zaladane to end her threat.
It seems to me that Lobdell essentially exaggerated that trend
toward insanity instead of creating it. Everything Magneto did during his
run was the work of a madman, and I thought it was both in keeping with his
original incarnation as a one-dimensional nutso and yet an evolution from
his portrayal toward the end of CC's run. He came full circle, really.
What I found annoying is that Magneto has died bazillions of times,
yet keeps coming back. He didn't die at the beginning of X-Men, he didn't
die in X-Men #25, he didn't die in X-Men #43 - he's just returning over and
over. And he's definitely fracturing.
> --Will, who loves Magnus because he has statues
> honoring fallen mutants in his bases while Chuck
> can't even name the damn Danger Room after poor
> Doug.
That I like, myself. But that's more of a statement on Charles, not
Magnus. Magneto honors the people he's fighting for, and then convinces
himself he's doing everything in their best interests and that that's how
they would have wanted it. Charles doesn't do it quite that way.
> > Of course, there is the possibility that Lobdell just likes
> > Magneto to be a raving bad-ass villain.
>
> Which is why he shouldn't be allowed near the character.
I think Magneto has just outlived his life as a writeable character.
Even CC had trouble keeping him original at the end of his first run (IMO),
so expecting any subsequent writer to do much better isn't quite fair.
If Lobdell could kill Magneto permanently (ie leaving no room open
for retcons of any kind), he'd earn my accolade as Best Writer... Ever.
Seriously. I don't care how he does it - make him read Claremont's second
run, puff an asthma inhaler too many times, run off with his mistress...
Just do it!
23yrold3yrold
>
> Lobdell didn't "write" the crashing of Illyana's funeral, he scripted the
> plot for the board of directors. As for having him try to kill Pietro..
> when was that, exactly?
Fatal Attractions. 5 seconds before he yanks the metal out of Logan.
Will I. Noya
Brian Fried wrote:
> Will I. Noya (willinoya@lycosdotcom) wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have confidence in Lobdell to tell a good
>> story? Isn't this the same man who had Magnus crash
>> Illyana's funeral? Didn't Lob also have him attempt
>> to kill his own son? Lobdell should never, ever be
>> allowed to write Magneto again!
>
>
> Lobdell didn't "write" the crashing of Illyana's funeral, he scripted the
> plot for the board of directors. As for having him try to kill Pietro..
> when was that, exactly?
>
I'm sure the "plot" called for Mags to crash Illyana's
funeral. Someone already answered this, but Mags tried
to kill Pietro right before he dealt with Logan in Fatal
Attractions.
> Loeb was supposed to write this story, not Lobdell. Marvel wanted him to
> be the temporary writer until Morrison and Casey took over. It didn't work
> out that way, and they took Lobdell off of GAMBIT & BISHOP and BLINK to
> put him on these books. The basic plot - Magneto vs. the world - was
> something Marvel had clearly been working up to anyway, what with their
> changing the end of Fabian's MAGNETO: DARK SEDUCTION mini as well.
>
> The idea behind this story is to (a) have something collectible in a trade
> paperback, (b) be somewhat controversal and (c) most importantly, clean
> the decks wide for Morrison and Casey to do something completely new and
> different on these books.
>
The fact that it's that obvious makes it worse. Piotr
and Magnus don't deserve to be treated like this in filler
stories.
> Once you put that into perspective, the fact that what we've got is any
> bit readable is amazing.
I think we have different definitions of "readable" :)
--Will
Steven Dumont
Arbitrator wrote:
> Granted, he made Magneto a bit more straightforward, as opposed to
> Claremont's complex character who was constantly questioning himself, but at
> the end of Claremont's run, after 30 years of Magneto vs. the X-Men, a
> change was needed. You couldn't reboot the character so many times as had
> been done in the past. Even Claremont had him return to his madman,
> villainous roots circa UXM #275, where he pulped Zaladane to end her threat.
I don't see how killing Zaladane can be used as an argument for Magneto
returning back to his villainous, madman days. He made a choice whether
to kill her or not. She deserved it. This is something that Wolverine
would do and no one would bat an eye. It wasn't done as an irrational
act. He knew what he was doing. He made a choice. Maybe not everyone
would have made that choice but the fact that he did just added to his
character.
Steve
Will I. Noya
> Will I. Noya <willinoya@lycosdotcom> wrote...
>> --Will, who loves Magnus because he has statues
>> honoring fallen mutants in his bases while Chuck
>> can't even name the damn Danger Room after poor
>> Doug.
>
>
> That I like, myself. But that's more of a statement on Charles, not
> Magnus. Magneto honors the people he's fighting for, and then convinces
> himself he's doing everything in their best interests and that that's how
> they would have wanted it. Charles doesn't do it quite that way.
>
BTW, I loathe Charles Xavier.
>
>>> Of course, there is the possibility that Lobdell just likes
>>> Magneto to be a raving bad-ass villain.
>>
>> Which is why he shouldn't be allowed near the character.
>
>
> I think Magneto has just outlived his life as a writeable character.
> Even CC had trouble keeping him original at the end of his first run (IMO),
> so expecting any subsequent writer to do much better isn't quite fair.
>
I don't expect him to do better. I expect him to do
a competent job. Then again, I don't really *expect*
him to do a competent job, I just keep hoping against
hope...
> If Lobdell could kill Magneto permanently (ie leaving no room open
> for retcons of any kind), he'd earn my accolade as Best Writer... Ever.
> Seriously. I don't care how he does it - make him read Claremont's second
> run, puff an asthma inhaler too many times, run off with his mistress...
> Just do it!
I think Lobdell's murdered enough characters already.
--Will
Arbitrator
Steven Dumont <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote...
>
> Arbitrator wrote:
>
> > Even Claremont had him return to his madman, villainous
> > roots circa UXM #275, where he pulped Zaladane to end her
> > threat.
>
> I don't see how killing Zaladane can be used as an argument for
> Magneto returning back to his villainous, madman days. He made
> a choice whether to kill her or not. She deserved it.
You know, you're right. I think I jumped too far ahead on that one.
I just kept juxtaposing the repentant, pacifist Magneto of ~#200 with the
one ~#275, and they seem wholly different. The first one seems saner, but
now that you point it out, they're both equally reasonable, just with
different moral/value systems.
So you're right, I guess Lobdell started the insanity thing. I guess
then we just have to leave our reactions to individual preference - I like
insane villains ('though only half-baked).
I'm not sure that trying to kill Pietro was entirely insane,
considering he never had a strong relationship with his son (it's only
biological, basically), and he may have simply gotten frustrated with the
repeated resistance, as he did with Wolverine.
And I just realized that the reason Magneto may have crashed
Illyana's funeral was to drive home the futility of Charles' path, and
perhaps to capitalize on anyone's doubts at that time. I'm not sure that's
quite insane, but definitely Jehovah's-Witness-zealous.
I concede that CC didn't start the insane Magneto, but thinking
about it, I'm not too sure Lobdell's was entirely insane, either. It's kind
of easy to follow why he might do a certain thing; it's just the issue of
whether or not that reasoning is consistent with his past character that is
questionable.
Will I. Noya
Garjones wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:12:50 -0700, "Arbitrator"
> <Arbit...@home.computer> wrote:
>
>
>> Steven Dumont <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote...
>>
>>> Arbitrator wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Even Claremont had him return to his madman, villainous
>>>> roots circa UXM #275, where he pulped Zaladane to end her
>>>> threat.
>>>
>>> I don't see how killing Zaladane can be used as an argument for
>>> Magneto returning back to his villainous, madman days. He made
>>> a choice whether to kill her or not. She deserved it.
>>
>> You know, you're right. I think I jumped too far ahead on that one.
>> I just kept juxtaposing the repentant, pacifist Magneto of ~#200 with the
>> one ~#275, and they seem wholly different. The first one seems saner, but
>> now that you point it out, they're both equally reasonable, just with
>> different moral/value systems.
>>
>
> Even Claremont was slightly forced into the evil Magneto stories
> though. The point he truned nasty again was written by Louise Simonson
> in New Mutants.
>
And if that issue wasn't crap, I don't know what is. Oh wait, forgot about
Mutant X ;)
--Will
Will I. Noya
Arbitrator wrote:
> Steven Dumont <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote...
>
>> Arbitrator wrote:
> And I just realized that the reason Magneto may have crashed
> Illyana's funeral was to drive home the futility of Charles' path, and
> perhaps to capitalize on anyone's doubts at that time. I'm not sure that's
> quite insane, but definitely Jehovah's-Witness-zealous.
>
You do have a point, but Magnus is just much too
honorable to do something as disrespectful as crashing
Illyana's funeral. After all, IMO she was his
"favorite" NM (probably because they had a lot of
similarities). Boy, I miss the Magneto/Magik
battles - now that was good stuff! Even Weezie
couldn't mess that up.
--Will
Kiki
: Fatal Attractions. 5 seconds before he yanks the metal out of Logan.
: --
Was it in the same issue even? I just want to know cause I don't remember
seeing anything like that and I know I read the issue that Logan gets the
metal torn out. If it is, I'll go check back through that issue just to
read it (I might have missed it since probably at the time I dind't even
know who Quicksilver was, it was a little towards teh beginning of when I
started reading xmen).
Tigress
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Nathan Mahney
Kiki <tig...@havoc.gtf.org> wrote in message
news:9bgmr9$9kl$6...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> 23yrold3yrold <cba...@pangea.ca> elaborated:
> : Fatal Attractions. 5 seconds before he yanks the metal out of Logan.
> : --
>
> Was it in the same issue even? I just want to know cause I don't remember
> seeing anything like that and I know I read the issue that Logan gets the
> metal torn out. If it is, I'll go check back through that issue just to
> read it (I might have missed it since probably at the time I dind't even
> know who Quicksilver was, it was a little towards teh beginning of when I
> started reading xmen).
>
adamantium. And I thought Magneto was written fairly well in that issue, at
least compared to when Lobdell wrote him. It's a shame Fabian isn't the
interim writer instead of Scoot.
- Nathan Mahney -
Justin Samuels
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:51:15 GMT, "Lazarus"
> <oompa_...@esatclear.ie> wrote:
>
> >> However, British and any foriegn companies that have business in the US
> >will
> >> get retailiation if they do business in Cuba. No major multinational
with
> >> interests in the US has set up shop in Cuba.
> >> >
> >Yup, 2 companies I've worked for required us as part of our contract not
to
> >do dealings with certain nations which included Cuba, and they were U.S
> >firms set up here. Seemed pathetic then as well.
> >
> Coca-Cola from getting their products in there. Maybe some US
> companies aren't as bothered about the embargo as others.
Anyone can buy Coke, and then sell it to Cuba. Coke isn't doing business in
Cuba. It has no perations in Cuba, does not buy products to Cuba, nor does
any direct sales. herefore, Coke is following the US law to the letter in
regards to Cuba.
Once it's products are sold, it has no control over who gets them.
The fact Coke gets to Cuba doesn't really help the Cuban econmy one bit,
which is why the fact Cubans can get Coke or cigarettes is a non issue.
>
>
> Cheers Drive!
>
> Gareth
Justin Samuels
"Steven Dumont" <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:3ADB9791...@mnsi.net...
>
>
>
> I don't see how killing Zaladane can be used as an argument for Magneto
> returning back to his villainous, madman days. He made a choice whether
> to kill her or not. She deserved it. This is something that Wolverine
> would do and no one would bat an eye. It wasn't done as an irrational
> act. He knew what he was doing. He made a choice. Maybe not everyone
> would have made that choice but the fact that he did just added to his
> character.
But then the majority of foes the X-men have faced then deserved to die,
including many X-men who were on the otherside of the law at one
point(Rogue, Gambit).
Zala Dane had been deafeated, and the immediate threat was over. Magneto
murdered her plain and simple. he should have killed himself, because he
had already done worse then she had.
>
> Steve
Justin Samuels
"Arbitrator" <Arbit...@home.computer> wrote in message
news:DLMC6.1655$3n4.1...@nntp2.onemain.com...
>
> You know, you're right. I think I jumped too far ahead on that
one.
> I just kept juxtaposing the repentant, pacifist Magneto of ~#200 with the
> one ~#275, and they seem wholly different. The first one seems saner, but
> now that you point it out, they're both equally reasonable, just with
> different moral/value systems.
>
> So you're right, I guess Lobdell started the insanity thing. I
guess
> then we just have to leave our reactions to individual preference - I like
> insane villains ('though only half-baked).
>
> I'm not sure that trying to kill Pietro was entirely insane,
> considering he never had a strong relationship with his son (it's only
> biological, basically), and he may have simply gotten frustrated with the
> repeated resistance, as he did with Wolverine.
>
> And I just realized that the reason Magneto may have crashed
> Illyana's funeral was to drive home the futility of Charles' path, and
> perhaps to capitalize on anyone's doubts at that time. I'm not sure that's
> quite insane, but definitely Jehovah's-Witness-zealous.
And that's how he recruited Colossus. Magneto crashed Illyana's funeral and
the ultimate slight to Xavier ,and to show that his path was correct.
>
> I concede that CC didn't start the insane Magneto, but thinking
> about it, I'm not too sure Lobdell's was entirely insane, either. It's
kind
> of easy to follow why he might do a certain thing; it's just the issue of
> whether or not that reasoning is consistent with his past character that
is
> questionable.
Lobdell's Mangeto was ruthless and brutal, not insane. Claremont strted
this when had Magneto kill Zala Dane . Basically, from UXM 275 onward,
Magneto was written as the guy you should not mess with or get in his way.
>
>
>
Justin Samuels
"Will I. Noya" <willinoya@lycosdotcom> wrote in message
He was never honorable before becoming the New Mutants headmaster. He told
Rogue in UXm 275, that honor was a concept that was basically dead.
>
> --Will
>
>
Steven Dumont
Justin Samuels wrote:
>
> "Steven Dumont" <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
> news:3ADB9791...@mnsi.net...
> >
>
> >
> >
> > I don't see how killing Zaladane can be used as an argument for Magneto
> > returning back to his villainous, madman days. He made a choice whether
> > to kill her or not. She deserved it. This is something that Wolverine
> > would do and no one would bat an eye. It wasn't done as an irrational
> > act. He knew what he was doing. He made a choice. Maybe not everyone
> > would have made that choice but the fact that he did just added to his
> > character.
>
> But then the majority of foes the X-men have faced then deserved to die,
> including many X-men who were on the otherside of the law at one
> point(Rogue, Gambit).
What exactly is your point?
> Zala Dane had been deafeated, and the immediate threat was over. Magneto
> murdered her plain and simple. he should have killed himself, because he
> had already done worse then she had.
He should not have let her go because she was bound to do something
worse. He made a judgment call that most people wouldn't want to do.
If Wolverine made the same choice there would be no talk about it. The
fact that Magneto had done worse things himself has no relevance since
in his eyes there was a reason behind them. In his eyes Zaladane
deserved to die.
Steve
Will I. Noya
Justin Samuels wrote:
Going to have to disagree here. 1) Keep in mind that UXM #275 was after Mag's
NM headmaster days, 2) In UXM #150(?), villainous Mags fails to
kill Kitty when he has the chance - that seemed pretty
honorable to me, 3) when it was revealed he was the father of
Pietro and Wanda, he put aside his differences with them to
visit Luna when she was first born (IIRC). Bottom line: the man
who "honors" his fellow mutants wouldn't crash the funeral of
any mutant, much less one who was that special to him. I mean,
he was basically a surrogate father for Illyana! Magneto has
been transformed into an insane lunatic and Scott Lobdell has
been the driving force behind it.
--Will
Royce
Can't agree here. Illyana was Magneto's student. They meant
something to each other. He would have *attended* her funeral, as
another mourner, if he was in his right mind. He wasn't in his right
mind, though, which is why he did what he did inistead.
Magneto's psychonutty now, and a weaker character as a result.
Ryan
Justin Samuels
> On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:20:40 GMT, "Justin Samuels"
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> >The fact Coke gets to Cuba doesn't really help the Cuban econmy one bit,
> >which is why the fact Cubans can get Coke or cigarettes is a non issue.
>
> 'import' the ads from somewhere else as well, just because they looked
> nice? Or is it an American company tip-toeing around the embargo when
> it suits them. Doesn't the logic work in reverse?
The law allows American companies to make do business in Cuba under certain
circumstances ,and with certain foriegn patners. Moreover, food and
medicine sales to Cuba are permitted by this law.
However, you will not have companies, for example, drilling for oil in Cuba
if they do major business in the US. US banks are not permitted to finance
Cuban imports/exports.
In fact it does,
> there's a company in Birmingham that sells t-shirts made in Havana
> straight back to the US. Take off the 'Made in Cuba' tag and nobody's
> the wiser.
A few t-shirts does not make an economy, nor does contraband. In order for
Cuba to develop, they need large scale investment, which will not happen
until the mebargo issue is resolved.
>
> The guys mentioned above are among companies that give free cigarettes
> to children in the third world and are under investigation by the EU
> for funding crime cartels to smuggle in cheap tobacco to Europe and
> avoid duty.
That is completely irrelevant. And I notice we don't have companies giving
children free cigarettes here in the US. Some countries suffer from a lack
of regulation.
When there's a buck to be made you'd be surprised how much
> they don't give a damn what Washington or anyone else tells them.
And where laws are truly enforced, you'd be surprised how through
governments can be in stopping violations of them.
>
>
> Cheers Drive!
>
> Gareth
Justin Samuels
"Will I. Noya" <willinoya@lycosdotcom> wrote in message
Did you read any depictions of him from UXM 1-120? The same Magneto
attemtped to kill the X-men on numerous occassions and was more than willing
to leave the X-men trapped under a volcano!
And Lobdell's portrayal of him is not insane. He isn't headmaster magneto
you guys want(what a wimp). Magneto simply doesn't work as a god guy.
>
> --Will
>
Justin Samuels
>
>
> Justin Samuels wrote:
> >
> > "Steven Dumont" <stev...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
> > news:3ADB9791...@mnsi.net...
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't see how killing Zaladane can be used as an argument for
Magneto
> > > returning back to his villainous, madman days. He made a choice
whether
> > > to kill her or not. She deserved it. This is something that
Wolverine
> > > would do and no one would bat an eye. It wasn't done as an irrational
> > > act. He knew what he was doing. He made a choice. Maybe not
everyone
> > > would have made that choice but the fact that he did just added to his
> > > character.
> >
> > But then the majority of foes the X-men have faced then deserved to die,
> > including many X-men who were on the otherside of the law at one
> > point(Rogue, Gambit).
>
> What exactly is your point?
In UXM 275, Magneto was a hypocrite.
>
>
> > Zala Dane had been deafeated, and the immediate threat was over.
Magneto
> > murdered her plain and simple. he should have killed himself, because
he
> > had already done worse then she had.
>
> He should not have let her go because she was bound to do something
> worse. He made a judgment call that most people wouldn't want to do.
> If Wolverine made the same choice there would be no talk about it. The
> fact that Magneto had done worse things himself has no relevance since
> in his eyes there was a reason behind them. In his eyes Zaladane
> deserved to die.
In Zala Dane's eyes, what she did wasn't so bad either. So what? And just
because Wolverine does something, it certainly doesn't make it right.
Magneto killed Zala Dane because she threatened him, threatened to drain
power from him and kill him. He didn't kill her to protect the world, he
was eliminating an enemy and rival!
If he were so concerned about world peace/stability, e should have hunted
down the likes of the Revears, Doom, Sinister, Apocalypse, etc.
>
> Steve
Will I. Noya
Justin Samuels wrote:
> "Will I. Noya" <willinoya@lycosdotcom> wrote in message
> news:3ADE2401.50603@lycosdotcom...
Yes, I have read Magneto in UXM 1-120. However, there was
a progression from there to headmaster. He grew as a
character. Lobdell flipped a switch to make him insane
because he can't find any other villains or create new ones.
> And Lobdell's portrayal of him is not insane. He isn't headmaster magneto
> you guys want(what a wimp). Magneto simply doesn't work as a god guy.
>
We're going to have to disagree here. Mags in #392 is
clearly insane. Again, crashing Illyana's funeral was
insane. Having voices in his head in Dark Seduction was
insane.
As far as headmaster Mags goes, you're wrong on two counts.
1) I don't want him to be headmaster, and 2) he wasn't a
wimp then (although NM 38 era was a hard time for him). I
merely want Lobdell to act like Magneto has shown some
growth since UXM #1 (almost 40 years ago)! If anything, he's
much crazier now than he was then.
>> --Will
>>
BTW, it's really weird the way you don't sign your post *and* you leave my name. Just
saying.
--Will
Steven Dumont
Justin Samuels wrote:
> In Zala Dane's eyes, what she did wasn't so bad either. So what? And just
> because Wolverine does something, it certainly doesn't make it right.
> Magneto killed Zala Dane because she threatened him, threatened to drain
> power from him and kill him. He didn't kill her to protect the world, he
> was eliminating an enemy and rival!
>
> If he were so concerned about world peace/stability, e should have hunted
> down the likes of the Revears, Doom, Sinister, Apocalypse, etc.
So you agree with me then? I never said that Zaladane was a threat to
the world. She was a threat to Magneto and he killed her. I'm not
arguing that what he did was right or wrong. It was justified in his
eyes. Of course we all justify everything we do. I never even
mentioned anything about him being concerned about world peace so I
don't know what you're getting at. I was simply stating that this
wasn't a case of Magneto reverting back to his crazy, villainous days.
Steve
Rob
"Will I. Noya" wrote:
> If anything, he's
> much crazier now than he was then.
Which is completely in character for Magneto. I'm sure other people have mentioned (at
least I hope they have) that Magneto has a genetic defect; the more he uses his powers,
the more unbalanced he becomes. Moira tried to fix this when Magneto had been de-aged, but
it didn't work.
Rob