Secondary Mutations
Bryan Mack
but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
White Queen - Diamond form
Beast - Cat-like appearence
Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
according to Austen)
Angel - Healing blood
Any others?
Itomi Bhaa
860dd285.04030...@posting.google.com...
Is'nt there something new with Cyclop beam ?
Reivax
> Any others?
Yes. But they came way before New X-Men.
Danielle Moonstar's powers changed during the 80's. At first her powers were
to create holograms-like manifestations of her opponent's worst fears. After
the Evolutionary War, her powers mutated and she was able to create material
manifestations.
And I suppose that's Nightcrawler's shadow related powers are a secondary
mutation. I don't see how a guy could reach an adult age without noticing
that he "disappear" when he's in shadows.
Aurora's powers mutated during Byrne's alpha flight run, too...
Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see New
Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
Reivax
John
>I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
>but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
>is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
I'll agree with you in that I think it's a stupid idea. Developing existing
powers is one thing, but handwaving that creates totally new unrelated powers
is dumb IMHO.
Of course, I haven't really liked the X-men in a long time. I was a pretty
solid reader up until uncanny issue number 210 or so, then stopped shortly
after with a brief spurt back when they had the blue/gold teams but that only
lasted a year or two tops, then after that, I only picked up the odd issue
every couple years. Of course, in those days I think the biggest problem was
that they kept changing writers ever two issues and every writer wanted to
undo what the previous writer did, which made things a mess. I blame a
complete lack of editorial control.
Of course, along came morrison and austen, which is even worse. I'm not a fan
of either and I haven't bought even a single issue since the reboot or
whatever it was called. My only enjoyment these days for x-men is in the
ultimate universe.
>White Queen - Diamond form
>Beast - Cat-like appearence
>Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
>according to Austen)
>Angel - Healing blood
>
>Any others?
Like I said, I haven't bought any and can hardly stand to occasionally leaf
through them, but I can't think of any. But what about beast? Would that be
a secondary or tertiary (spelling) mutation? After all, he was originally
fairly human looking with large feet and hands and sometimes a little apelike,
but then he mutated into the blue furry Hank I grew to know and love in the
avengers. This would be the third mutation for hank. I wonder if it would
have occured if he hadn't drank the mutation potion back in the day? If so,
and his secondary mutation would have made him catlike, what would he have
looked like if he hadn't been blue and furry?
-John Bilow
my email address is fake. Instead, you can contact me by replacing the word "boy" with my last name.
Patrick McClue
"Reivax" <reivax...@online.fr> wrote in message
news:40461774$0$2631$afc3...@news.easynet.fr...
Mirage and Aurora's change came from machines that resulted in their powers
mutating, so I'm not sure if they count as "secondary mutations" in the way
that Angel and Emma's second mutation. Also, Mirage's "ultimate level" was
to make her holograms solid...as shown in one of the early New Mutants
books. Karma's siblings have been powered and depowered by both scientific
and magical means...and the current NM book has put the question if they are
mutants at all. Nightcrawler had the "blending in shadows" power early on
and it was dropped, then brought back again, but that was before secondary
mutations appeared. Mystique's change in power can be explained by X-Men
Forever, if we really want to rationalize why she can do things now that she
couldn't do before.
Patrick
JMNeves
"Bryan Mack" <tun...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:860dd285.04030...@posting.google.com...
> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
>
> according to Austen)
Actually, i think that was just him achieving his potential. if you remember
in age of apocolipse, he would be shattered and could reform, at the cost of
his mental health.... I think his secondary mutation was him permenatly
turning into ice...... any one else remember this?
Brian Doyle
Hate to burst your bubble on these but;
> Danielle Moonstar's powers changed during the 80's. At first her powers
were
> to create holograms-like manifestations of her opponent's worst fears.
After
> the Evolutionary War, her powers mutated and she was able to create
material
> manifestations.
That wasn't a mutation of her power, that was her existing powers natural
progression. She was able to create solid images during the Brood story in
the very first episodes of New Mutants, and Xavier told her it was what her
power would eventually become. I wasn't keen on the way it developed in the
Evolutionary annual (Too convenient and annoying) but it wasn't new.
> And I suppose that's Nightcrawler's shadow related powers are a secondary
> mutation. I don't see how a guy could reach an adult age without noticing
> that he "disappear" when he's in shadows.
His awareness of that power comes and goes regularly, depending on the
writer. He knew he was hard to see in shadow, but the power intensified
shortly after joining the X-Men, then faded, depending on the creative team.
It was Alan Davis in Excalibur who first defined it as a natural part of his
existing teleportation, his body is constantly interfaced with the dimension
he travels through, so light falling on him doesn't always react the way it
would under normal conditions.
> Aurora's powers mutated during Byrne's alpha flight run, too...
Her genetic structure was deliberately altered by Walter Langowski in a way
_he_ controlled, I'm not sure that quite counts as a secondary mutation as
it was never a natural progression of her genetic structure, which secondary
mutations are said to be.
> Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see New
> Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
Both times they got powers it was because of Spiral's magic, so neither
might be their real power, if they actually have any. Certainly they are
back to being kids again, mercifully.
Christian Smith
<No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>> Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see New
>> Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
>
>Both times they got powers it was because of Spiral's magic, so neither
>might be their real power, if they actually have any. Certainly they are
>back to being kids again, mercifully.
We know what the kids powers are
To turn invisible.
Honestly- have they even been seen or mentioned in NM since Shan
joined the staff?
Christian
--
"The Dark Phoenix may have been a threat to all life in the universe...
But she had great taste in costumes." (Rachel Summers Excalibur #65)
BlakGard
>>> Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see New
>>> Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
>>
>> Both times they got powers it was because of Spiral's magic, so neither
>> might be their real power, if they actually have any. Certainly they are
>> back to being kids again, mercifully.
>
> We know what the kids powers are
> To turn invisible.
> Honestly- have they even been seen or mentioned in NM since Shan
> joined the staff?
Considering the book isn't about them or anyone in Mirage's family, why is it
an issue?
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
Brian Doyle
"BlakGard" <blak...@aol.comix.net> wrote in message
news:20040303185905...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> Christian Smith wrote:
> >>> Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see
New
> >>> Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
> >>
> >> Both times they got powers it was because of Spiral's magic, so neither
> >> might be their real power, if they actually have any. Certainly they
are
> >> back to being kids again, mercifully.
> >
> > We know what the kids powers are
> > To turn invisible.
> > Honestly- have they even been seen or mentioned in NM since Shan
> > joined the staff?
>
> Considering the book isn't about them or anyone in Mirage's family, why is
it
> an issue?
Because they are a major part (or should be) of Shan's life. She is their de
facto parent, who is repsonsible for their upbringing, making her pretty
much unique in the X-verse. It seems silly to ignore them completely.
I agree they don't NEED to be there but, using the Buffy comaprison again,
we managed well without _seeing_ most of the Scoobies parents regularly, but
they were referenced all the time, so we'd remember they were there and were
influencing them.
Patrick McClue
"Christian Smith" <chri...@jasdigital.com> wrote in message
news:99lc40t6r1ch9somu...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:40:21 -0000,"Brian Doyle"
> <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>
> >> Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see
New
> >> Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
> >
> >Both times they got powers it was because of Spiral's magic, so neither
> >might be their real power, if they actually have any. Certainly they are
> >back to being kids again, mercifully.
>
> We know what the kids powers are
> To turn invisible.
But somehow still get kidnapped. :-)
> Honestly- have they even been seen or mentioned in NM since Shan
> joined the staff?
>
> Christian
I don't think that's really a problem if you consider the pace of the book
and the intent of focusing on the mutant kids. Just knowing that the twins
are around and safe is a lot better than not knowing where they are and why
Shan never seems take care of them. I'm sure they will show up again
whenever there is a Shan-centered story. Kitty moving back to the mansion
should generate a story or two with them.
Patrick
Brian Doyle
"Patrick McClue" <mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c25uq9$1pk6gb$1...@ID-183337.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > We know what the kids powers are
> > To turn invisible.
>
> But somehow still get kidnapped. :-)
A power they share with the old "Robin the Boy Hostage"
> I don't think that's really a problem if you consider the pace of the book
> and the intent of focusing on the mutant kids. Just knowing that the
twins
> are around and safe is a lot better than not knowing where they are and
why
> Shan never seems take care of them.
Have to agree there.
> I'm sure they will show up again
> whenever there is a Shan-centered story. Kitty moving back to the mansion
> should generate a story or two with them.
It'd be interesting to see the Leong and Nga interact with the mutant kids.
Would they be accepting because it's nothing new, jealous because they don't
have active powers (or maybe latent powers) , or even fearful, since being
related to a mutant has caused them more trouble than anything else in their
lives (Even their uncle being a crimelord) and aren't mature enough to
differentiate between the crap that's gone down for one reason and another..
Just ask Auntie Ilyanna, or Uncle Doug about how safe it is hanging around
Xaviers... :)
Alex Peckover
As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
sense.
Alex
Rayeye
"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> schreef in bericht
news:c26nop$1oc13k$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Bryan Mack" <tun...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:860dd285.04030...@posting.google.com
> > I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
> > but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
> > is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
> >
> > White Queen - Diamond form
> > Beast - Cat-like appearence
> > Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
> > according to Austen)
>
part of these mutations is explained in X-Men Forever, but I think they're
some sort of secondary mutation.
Patrick McClue
"Rayeye" <r.p.g...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:4047065a$0$42519$abc4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
I think in Toad's case, his present form is the one he should have always
had, but experiments done to him (pre-natal? in infancy? can't remember)
halted his mutation. I don't think this would count as secondary mutation
either. It's more like showing his "true, healed form."
So, besides Emma, Hank, Black Tom, and maybe Warren, there really aren't too
many cases of secondary mutations. Are there any others with confirmed
secondary mutations?
If it is only limited to those listed above, I don't see the need to keep
secondary mutations around just so a writer can give a pre-existing
character a power he thinks is cool. Instead, use someone with those
powers, or create a new one (I know there are too many, but writers will
always create someone new).
Blame the High Evolutionary...he's a good scapegoat. :-)
Patrick
BlakGard
>>>>> Karma's kid brother and sister displayed different sets of powers (see
>>>>> New Mutants Annual 2 and the Beast mini).
>>>>
>>>> Both times they got powers it was because of Spiral's magic, so neither
>>>> might be their real power, if they actually have any. Certainly they
>>>> are back to being kids again, mercifully.
>>>
>>> We know what the kids powers are
>>> To turn invisible.
>>> Honestly- have they even been seen or mentioned in NM since Shan
>>> joined the staff?
>>
>> it an issue?
>
> Because they are a major part (or should be) of Shan's life. She is their de
> facto parent, who is repsonsible for their upbringing, making her pretty
> much unique in the X-verse. It seems silly to ignore them completely.
>
> I agree they don't NEED to be there but, using the Buffy comaprison again,
> we managed well without _seeing_ most of the Scoobies parents regularly, but
> they were referenced all the time, so we'd remember they were there and were
> influencing them.
If by "regularly" you mean once or twice a season, then I see your point. By
comparison, we should see a mention of Xi'an's brother and sister once or twice
every 20-odd issues, and we've already seen more than that so far. Works for
me.
BlakGard
>> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
>> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
>> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
>>
>> White Queen - Diamond form
>> Beast - Cat-like appearence
>> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
>> according to Austen)
>
> As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
> appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
> the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
> reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
> sense.
Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.
Lia Brown
<mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I think in Toad's case, his present form is the one he should have always
>had, but experiments done to him (pre-natal? in infancy? can't remember)
>halted his mutation. I don't think this would count as secondary mutation
>either. It's more like showing his "true, healed form."
The story was inconsistent. At one point, it was mentioned that the
Black Womb people merely observed Toad's mutation; they could have
fixed his deficiencies to make him a 'better' mutant, but they didn't.
Somewhere else it was stated that they'd tinkered with him to create
his crappier mutation. I'm not really sure which version to believe.
Lia
"Send me a postcard from Conclusions, will you? Did you enjoy
your jump?" ---Turin
Freedom Force: http://members.fortunecity.com/rook1/ffintro.html
Bryan Mack
> Alex Peckover wrote:
> >> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
> >> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
> >> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
> >>
> >> White Queen - Diamond form
> >> Beast - Cat-like appearence
> >> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
> >> according to Austen)
> >
> > As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
> > appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
> > the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
> > reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
> > sense.
>
> Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.
The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
again. His entire body is eradicated. This includes all internal
organs. Heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, etc. So he can form a new body
out of water? Can he form all of his internal organs out of water? And
place them in the exact locations they need to be? And they function
correctly? I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit....
but this seems a bit too unbelieveable to me.
Peter Dimitriadis
: blak...@aol.comix.net (BlakGard) wrote in message news:<20040304075040...@mb-m27.aol.com>...
I think the same questions crop up when you consider that he changes
completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
they are or how to make a kidney.
Peter Dimitriadis
Glenn Simpson
My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks. It is replaced
with a duplicate body that is made of an ice-like substance (it is
only ice-like in that it is flexible enough for him to move and
stuff). The matter that makes up this ice body comes from that same
dimension (which is where Giant-Man gets the mass when he grows). This
ice-body retains the same abilities as his normal body - to further
manipulate moisture and freeze it into ice, or the ice-like substance
his body is made of.
Iceman doesn't literally have to recreate his body down to the
internal organ - he just has to create enough of a replica of his body
to activate the process of switching bodies back again.
This whole "pulling matter and energy in and out of another dimension"
thing can be used to explain pretty much any super-power, if you allow
for a variety of other types of energy and matter to be available
there.
wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist
>completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
>different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
>does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
>into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
>of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
>template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
>creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
>the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
>they are or how to make a kidney.
>
>Peter Dimitriadis
>
Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
into ice and back, and he's all better
_______________________
~wonkycyber/ANDREW Ingle
afu no movie akio -- with his Planeterium Playset!
http://members.tripod.com/~dark_revolution/ -- The Dark Revolution
"Isn't it surrealistic and good?" ~Suzaku, Yuu Yuu Hakusho
~consul
> Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
> healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
> into ice and back, and he's all better
Depends, there might be some sort of body template based on the image, so if he doesn't
have an arm anymore, it might not reform. Remember when he got his chest blown out, and he
didn't want to transform back because he didn't want a hole in his flesh body? It might
work the other way around, if he doesn't 'believe' in his arm enough, it might not make
itself whole.
--
There is a significant difference between 'dignified and understanding' and 'suffering the
inane fools patiently' concerning the dregs of society.
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))
K.Wylde
Iceman's ability to turn himself into pure ice was triggered by
Mikhail Rasputin. IIRC, Mikahil changed his body on a whim, more or
less wondering what would happen if Bobby could turn his body into
ice. Therefore, it can be argued that Iceman's steady progression
into an ice being is analogous to the power surges he experienced
during his tenure in X-Factor. With the manipulation of his power,
his increase in energy-manipulating levels would have the current
effect of triggering a permanent change in his physical status.
KW!
BlakGard
>>>> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
>>>> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
>>>> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
>>>>
>>>> White Queen - Diamond form
>>>> Beast - Cat-like appearence
>>>> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
>>>> according to Austen)
>>>
>>> As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
>>> appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he
>>> gained the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose
>>> his ability to reform himself using any available water makes a
>>> reasonable amount of sense.
>>
>> Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.
>
> The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
> again. His entire body is eradicated.
Why? We're talking about superheroes, here. In a world where a man can
turn his body to sand, get blown all over the place, then come back together;
the same for water, stone, energy, etc.
> So he can form a new body out of water? Can he form all of his internal
> organs out of water? And place them in the exact locations they need
> to be? And they function correctly?
Yes.
> I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit.... but this seems a bit
> too unbelieveable to me.
Then you are not ready for comic books. I implore you not to pick up a
superhero comic book until you fix this.
BlakGard
>> completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
>> different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
>> does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
>> into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
>> of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
>> template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
>> creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
>> the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
>> they are or how to make a kidney.
>
> healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
> into ice and back, and he's all better
Yup. Remember, back in the 90s, he had a huge hole blasted through his
chest.
Brian Doyle
"wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist" <v9cyb...@aol.comMiracle> wrote in
message news:20040305154549...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort
of
> healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off,
pop
> into ice and back, and he's all better
IIRC didn't Emma Frost do pretty much precisely that in the story where her
mind took over his body. The body started to shift to a more feminine form
based on her self image, without long term problems.
And the AoA Iceman was able to do the same thing, and as he was already born
when the AoA trigger event occurred, he has the same mutation there as he
does in the mainstream MU.
~consul
> wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist wrote:
>>Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
>>healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
>>into ice and back, and he's all better
> Yup. Remember, back in the 90s, he had a huge hole blasted through his
> chest.
He had a hole when he was in ice form first, not in flesh form. I still like my idea that
there is the 'ideal form' that they unconsciously pop in and out of, so they do not have
to make the decisions of organ placement. But with the flesh arm blown off, it might
change his default ideal form. So as ice, he could make the arm, but it would be gone when
he fleshed up.
Peter Dimitriadis
: >I think the same questions crop up when you consider that he changes
: >different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
: >does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
: >into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
: >of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
: >template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
: >creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
: >the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
: >they are or how to make a kidney.
: >
: >Peter Dimitriadis
: >
:
: Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
: healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
: into ice and back, and he's all better
Good point. Well, it's possible it works that way, but it could also work
so that if he's wounded and he turns back, he stays wounded, because
that's the way his body 'remembers' him last being. Viruses may or may
not survive the change (if they're considered part of his body, they
might, otherwise they could simply freeze to death).
That would seem to make a little more sense from a dramatic standpoint.
It still leaves the problem that he's virtually immortal while staying in
ice though, but that's not so much of a problem.
Peter Dimitriadis
Dan McEwen
Besides, the stuff with Iceman came directly out of X-Men Forever which,
IIRC, predated Morrison's run.
Dan McEwen
news:4047065a$0$42519$abc4...@news.wanadoo.nl:
I don't think so. Toad is "the way he was always supposed to be" until
tampering done to him as said in X-Men Forever.
Dan McEwen
news:40484190...@news1.on.sympatico.ca:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:28:34 +0900, "Patrick McClue"
> <mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I think in Toad's case, his present form is the one he should have
>>always had, but experiments done to him (pre-natal? in infancy? can't
>>remember) halted his mutation. I don't think this would count as
>>secondary mutation either. It's more like showing his "true, healed
>>form."
>
> The story was inconsistent. At one point, it was mentioned that the
> Black Womb people merely observed Toad's mutation; they could have
> fixed his deficiencies to make him a 'better' mutant, but they didn't.
> Somewhere else it was stated that they'd tinkered with him to create
> his crappier mutation. I'm not really sure which version to believe.
Regardless of which is the true story, Toad's changes still don't count
as secondary mutation. The changes happened to him, as with Mystique,
as a result of specific intervention. As near as I can tell, secondary
mutations are "natural".
Dan McEwen
> The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
> again. His entire body is eradicated. This includes all internal
> organs. Heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, etc. So he can form a new body
> out of water? Can he form all of his internal organs out of water? And
> place them in the exact locations they need to be? And they function
> correctly? I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit....
> but this seems a bit too unbelieveable to me.
It's not exactly new. Take, for example, Charcoal from the
Thunderbolts. His body gets blasted to bits and reforms, completely
intact. Same thing with Wonder Man - he's been completely reduced to
ionic energy that was spread at least throughout Los Angeles. Yet, he's
configured properly at the moment.
Dan McEwen
news:1287ea8f.04030...@posting.google.com:
> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
>
> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension is
directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do with
Iceman's powers.
Lia Brown
wrote:
Yeah, I know, I was just responding to the part about the experiments.
But haven't some of the secondary mutations been artificial? Didn't
Beast's come from Sage jump-starting him?
Patrick McClue
"Lia Brown" <ro...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:40496705...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
I'm not really sure how Sage's powers work. I guess you can say she only
brought out what was already there, the same way that she
triggered....what's his name...Lifeguard's brother...powers. She might be
considered 'natural' in the way that the lava that Magma first fell into, or
the mineshaft that collapsed on Cannonball triggered their powers. Polaris
was a "latent mutant" who somehow got her powers triggered. What was her
trigger?
Back to Beast, all that happened when he was forced to leave Claremont's
book for Morrison's. I don't know if Claremont was going for secondary
mutation when he wrote that scene with Sage. Secondary mutations seemed to
be Morrison's thing and rather than saying Sage changed Beast, Morrison used
his new "secondary mutation" idea.
Patrick
Brian Doyle
> wrote:
>
> >ro...@sympatico.ca (Lia Brown) wrote in
> >news:40484190...@news1.on.sympatico.ca:
> >
> >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:28:34 +0900, "Patrick McClue"
> >> <mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I know, I was just responding to the part about the experiments.
> But haven't some of the secondary mutations been artificial? Didn't
> Beast's come from Sage jump-starting him?
Beast is a weird case, since him having a furry form in the first place is
the result of biochemical experiements he performed on himself.
Mutationally speaking Hank's a MESS! Natural mutation, chemical
augmentation, Sage jumpstarting him... all we need now is to find out he's a
cyborg shaman too and the whole thing is covered! :)
Sorted magAZine
"Dan McEwen" <dannyb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2bkr5$1qoqp4$5...@ID-177615.news.uni-berlin.de...
Anyway, it doesn't work. Can't he partially ice up? Like having an ice hand,
but not the rest of his body? That would mean he'd be partially in and
partially out of another dimensino.
D.
BlakGard
>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
>>>
>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
>>
>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension is
>> directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do with
>> Iceman's powers.
There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
with Pym Particles.
> Anyway, it doesn't work. Can't he partially ice up? Like having an ice hand,
> but not the rest of his body? That would mean he'd be partially in and
> partially out of another dimensino.
The theory that I think works best is that Bobby is, in fact, an energy being
that can transmute matter on an atomic scale. He doesn't really need a
human body at all.
There really isn't a real-life scientific way to explain any of the superheroes
that transmute their bodies into another substance, obviously. So it's
probably best not to give him (or Colossus, Sandman, Nitro, and a slew of
other characters) a scientific explanation. In truth, just about any theory
can work in a superhero universe.
Dan McEwen
news:20040306160854...@mb-m26.aol.com:
> Sorted magAZine wrote:
>>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
>>>>
>>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
>>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
>>>
>>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension
>>> is directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do
>>> with Iceman's powers.
>
> There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
> with Pym Particles.
I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
and going giant.
>> Anyway, it doesn't work. Can't he partially ice up? Like having an
>> ice hand, but not the rest of his body? That would mean he'd be
>> partially in and partially out of another dimensino.
>
> The theory that I think works best is that Bobby is, in fact, an
> energy being that can transmute matter on an atomic scale. He doesn't
> really need a human body at all.
I agree. Something like this works better than many other ideas when
you use it in conjunction with him being an "Omega level" mutant.
BlakGard
>>>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
>>>>>
>>>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
>>>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
>>>>
>>>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension
>>>> is directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do
>>>> with Iceman's powers.
>>
>> There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
>> with Pym Particles.
>
> I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
> Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
> and going giant.
Agreed, but then the question arises: What's the difference between Ant-Man
or Wasp adding mass to become giant and the Hulk, Colossus, etc. adding
mass to become larger? It seems to me that the difference is only in the use
of the power.
AJSolis
and flight.
Sunspot, depending on how unrelated you require a secondary condition to be:
He's learned how to fly and project energy blasts after all.
Changeling, developed telekinesis when Prof X loaned him telepathy.
Prof X himself seems to have latent telekinesis, since his genetically
identical "twin sister" has telekinesis as well.
Bishop has learned how to channel energy into physical strength, again might
not count depending on where one draws the line.
Scarlet Witch's powers have changed from mere probability manipulation to
magic channeling, but may be seen as a maturation of her powers instead of a
secondary mutation.
And Mirage's powers have changed three times, albeit initiated by outside
forces each time, she certainly has a tendency in that direction.
While activated first by a telepathic skrull, and then by Sage, Rogue has
demonstrated shapeshifting to channel the superpowers of those she's absorbed
in the past.
Gambit's ultimate potential is worth mentioning, but doesn't count since his
powers were artificially reduced to the usual levels.
Lia Brown
<No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>"Lia Brown" <ro...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:40496705...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
>> Yeah, I know, I was just responding to the part about the experiments.
>> But haven't some of the secondary mutations been artificial? Didn't
>> Beast's come from Sage jump-starting him?
>
>Beast is a weird case, since him having a furry form in the first place is
>the result of biochemical experiements he performed on himself.
Yes, but I suppose one could argue that the chemicals he drank just
activated some latent power he might have developed later.
>Mutationally speaking Hank's a MESS! Natural mutation, chemical
>augmentation, Sage jumpstarting him... all we need now is to find out he's a
>cyborg shaman too and the whole thing is covered! :)
Cyborgs....brrrrr.
We might also be able to argue that Legacy mutants' jacked up powers
were potential they may have achieved later if they'd lived. And just
before Pyro died he was implied to be generating his own fire, which
kinda-mighta be considered a secondary mutation.
Sorted magAZine
"BlakGard" <blak...@aol.comix.net> wrote in message
news:20040307055240...@mb-m29.aol.com...
> Dan McEwen wrote:
> >>>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
> >>>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
> >>>>
> >>>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension
> >>>> is directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do
> >>>> with Iceman's powers.
> >>
> >> There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
> >> with Pym Particles.
> >
> > I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
> > Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
> > and going giant.
>
> Agreed, but then the question arises: What's the difference between Ant-Man
> or Wasp adding mass to become giant and the Hulk, Colossus, etc. adding
> mass to become larger? It seems to me that the difference is only in the use
> of the power.
>
added bulk in the orderly way of Giant Man. Colossus was presumably more like
Iceman - the extra mass is simply the change in material.
D.
Brian Doyle
"AJSolis" <ajs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040307055459...@mb-m21.aol.com...
> Sunspot, depending on how unrelated you require a secondary condition to
be:
> He's learned how to fly and project energy blasts after all.
He got that after having his powers supercharged by Gideon didn't he? It
took a homicidal maniac to actually risk doing it to him, but I think that
was part of his existing solar energy metabolising power.
> Changeling, developed telekinesis when Prof X loaned him telepathy.
His profile in OHOTMU says he had latent telekinetic powers.
> Prof X himself seems to have latent telekinesis, since his genetically
> identical "twin sister" has telekinesis as well.
She seems to have all sorts of powers he never did, like walking through
walls healing etc. Xavier was her basic template but she coule reprogram
herself with others (Like taking on Trasks genetic ID)
> Scarlet Witch's powers have changed from mere probability manipulation
to
> magic channeling, but may be seen as a maturation of her powers instead of
a
> secondary mutation.
Precisely. Her natural mutant power would have been energy manipualtion like
her father, but because of the circumstances of her birth, her power was
always manipulation of magical chaos energy. In the simplest form this was
her hex sphere or "Chaos hand grenades", barely controlled bursts of
unlikely events. She's now learning to do far more with her powers, but it's
not a secondary mutation.
Peter Bruells
> In the case of the Hulk, it seems more like a temporary cancerous
> growth than added bulk in the orderly way of Giant Man.
But Hulk adds mass and looses it when turning into Banner. Perhaps
his cells just increase in size and pull enegery or matter out of the
thin air and increase in mass and durabilty, too.
Hmmm... Let's just say that Marvel matter has properties extending in
dimension unknown to man and that these super-people just access these
properties in the real world. i.e. becoming harder, colder or burning
would just be extension of the same physical effect.
Patrick McClue
supersenses
> and flight.
Weren't the supersenses part of the original Thunderbird's powers? They
were not as strong as
Wolverines, but still above human. Flight? Wasn't that a writer's mistake
in the same way that one writer didn't know that M could fly? If not, then
I guess we can add him to the list of people with secondary mutations.
> Sunspot, depending on how unrelated you require a secondary condition to
be:
> He's learned how to fly and project energy blasts after all.
I'm still curious to know where those powers came from. I wasn't reading
X-Force at the time. Were those changes natural or artificial? Could they
be considered a natural evolution of his powers rather than a 'secondary'
one? Does he need the sun to power-up as before?
> Changeling, developed telekinesis when Prof X loaned him telepathy.
Curious: Has the Prof. ever lent anyone else telepathy? Was Changling a
"latent psi" in order to do that?
> Prof X himself seems to have latent telekinesis, since his genetically
> identical "twin sister" has telekinesis as well.
He has used telekinesis in an early issue of X-Men, but that was later said
to have been an isolated case.
> Bishop has learned how to channel energy into physical strength, again
might
> not count depending on where one draws the line.
> Scarlet Witch's powers have changed from mere probability manipulation
to
> magic channeling, but may be seen as a maturation of her powers instead of
a
> secondary mutation.
I think with the Scarlet Witch, the idea is that she has always been
channeling magic in order to affect probability. The chaotic magic bit is
more of an explanation of her power source, rather than a new power in
itself.
> And Mirage's powers have changed three times, albeit initiated by
outside
> forces each time, she certainly has a tendency in that direction.
As said before, the first few issues of the New Mutants showed that her
ultimate potential is to make her holograms solid. The only new power added
on was her Valkerie-given powers.
> While activated first by a telepathic skrull, and then by Sage, Rogue
has
> demonstrated shapeshifting to channel the superpowers of those she's
absorbed
> in the past.
That could be the full expression of her power if she ever learned to
control it properly. It seems that the Skrull and Sage gave her some
control.
> Gambit's ultimate potential is worth mentioning, but doesn't count
since his
> powers were artificially reduced to the usual levels.
What was Gambit's ultimate potential?
It seems that we have to make a difference between what is a secondary
mutation and a growth of the original mutation/ultimate potential. It seems
that with the confirmed secondary mutations, the new power wasn't related to
the original power (Emma, Black Tom, Angel), but I guess that doesn't always
have to be the case (Beast going from ape-like to cat-like).
Characters who are making steps to their full potential and show new tricks
with the same powers (Iceman, Mirage, Cannonball, and Rogue, for example)
may not necessarily be affected by secondary mutations.
:-)
Patrick
Sorted magAZine
"Patrick McClue" <mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2f7q0$1s2n8d$1...@ID-183337.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> What was Gambit's ultimate potential?
>
D.
Brian Doyle
"Patrick McClue" <mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2f7q0$1s2n8d$1...@ID-183337.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
to be:
> > He's learned how to fly and project energy blasts after all.
>
> I'm still curious to know where those powers came from. I wasn't reading
> X-Force at the time. Were those changes natural or artificial? Could
they
> be considered a natural evolution of his powers rather than a 'secondary'
> one?
Gideon thought that Sunpost was an External, so attempted to activate his
powers by basically superloading his powers with solar energy to the point
it would kill him, then his External gene would kick in and he'd be alive
again with even more powers. As it turns out Sunspot was NOT an External,
and Gideonw as ahppy to leave him to die, but Bobby managed to metabolise
the solar energy anyway gaining his new powers.
>Does he need the sun to power-up as before?
I dunno, his powers got weird back then, actually before then, when his
"turn to silhouette" visual was changed to "Skin turns to silhouette but
costme is visible"... GACK! the Brett Blevins era... "those hideous
costumes", those "everyone male is descended from rodents" Brrrrrr!
> Characters who are making steps to their full potential and show new
tricks
> with the same powers (Iceman, Mirage, Cannonball, and Rogue, for example)
> may not necessarily be affected by secondary mutations.
Nicely put
Nathan P. Mahney
> blak...@aol.comix.net (BlakGard) wrote in
> news:20040306160854...@mb-m26.aol.com:
>
> > Sorted magAZine wrote:
> >>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
> >>>>
> >>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
> >>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
> >>>
> >>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension
> >>> is directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do
> >>> with Iceman's powers.
> >
> > There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
> > with Pym Particles.
>
> I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
> Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
> and going giant.
>
they're already portrayed.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
~consul
>>Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
>>and going giant.
> Of course there's no reason that he can't already do this with his powers as
> they're already portrayed.
He's bulked up to go icy-Hulk on enemies, but he's never gone smaller. Has he ever sent
out an 'eye' like Reed Richards does, or has all his manipulaitons along the line of handjobs?
;)
Glenn Simpson
> Dan McEwen wrote:
> >>>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
> >>>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
> >>>>
> >>>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension
> >>>> is directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do
> >>>> with Iceman's powers.
> >>
> >> There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
> >> with Pym Particles.
> >
> > I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
> > Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
> > and going giant.
>
> Agreed, but then the question arises: What's the difference between Ant-Man
> or Wasp adding mass to become giant and the Hulk, Colossus, etc. adding
> mass to become larger? It seems to me that the difference is only in the use
> of the power.
That is the only difference. No reason why there should be more of a difference.
BlakGard
>>>>>>> My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
>>>>>>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension
>>>>>> is directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do
>>>>>> with Iceman's powers.
>>>>
>>>> There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
>>>> with Pym Particles.
>>>
>>> I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
>>> Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
>>> and going giant.
>>
>> Agreed, but then the question arises: What's the difference between Ant-Man
>> or Wasp adding mass to become giant and the Hulk, Colossus, etc. adding
>> mass to become larger? It seems to me that the difference is only in the
>> use of the power.
>
> In the case of the Hulk, it seems more like a temporary cancerous growth than
> added bulk in the orderly way of Giant Man.
Cancerous? Temporary? Regardless of how you justify it, you still have to
account
for the extra mass. Cancerous growths don't just appear out of nowhere. The
mass
already exists; it's just added to the body. This is not what happens with the
Hulk
anyway.
> Colossus was presumably more like Iceman - the extra mass is simply the
> change in material.
Change in material cannot change mass, unless more material is added.
Colossus added a good foot of height and doubled his mass when he
powered up.
BlakGard
>>> I guess, but isn't that needlessly tacking on something additional?
>>> Once we go that route, you know someone's going to have him shrinking
>>> and going giant.
>>
>> Of course there's no reason that he can't already do this with his powers
>> as they're already portrayed.
>
> He's bulked up to go icy-Hulk on enemies, but he's never gone smaller. Has he
> ever sent out an 'eye' like Reed Richards does, or has all his manipulaitons
> along the line of handjobs?
Well, recent issues have him shown as a disembodied head... *that's* smaller.
:)
I kind of like the idea of "sending out an eye." Ever seen the movie Abyss? The
aliens/Atlanteans used tendrils of water as a probe. Might work with ice.
Dan McEwen
news:20040307055459...@mb-m21.aol.com:
> Other secondary mutations include warpath: He's had two actually,
> supersenses
> and flight.
At a guess, this second one won't be referenced again. It was a really
stupid idea. How would Pete Wisdom possibly guess that Warpath could
fly? What would make the connection? As portrayed in X-Force, Warpath
always had his flight powers but didn't know it until Wisdom came along
and told him. The senses are definitely an upgrade, though.
> Sunspot, depending on how unrelated you require a secondary
> condition to be:
> He's learned how to fly and project energy blasts after all.
Seems right to me.
> Changeling, developed telekinesis when Prof X loaned him telepathy.
Did he? I had no idea.
> Prof X himself seems to have latent telekinesis, since his
> genetically
> identical "twin sister" has telekinesis as well.
Not to mention that he's used tekekinesis himself.
> Bishop has learned how to channel energy into physical strength,
> again might
> not count depending on where one draws the line.
Sounds like a change to me.
> Scarlet Witch's powers have changed from mere probability
> manipulation to
> magic channeling, but may be seen as a maturation of her powers
> instead of a secondary mutation.
This was always her power, I think (as least retcon-wise). Her powers
were altered by Chthon.
> And Mirage's powers have changed three times, albeit initiated by
> outside
> forces each time, she certainly has a tendency in that direction.
Outside influences seem to be different.
> While activated first by a telepathic skrull, and then by Sage,
> Rogue has
> demonstrated shapeshifting to channel the superpowers of those she's
> absorbed in the past.
This is merely an aspect of her power, not a mutation.
> Gambit's ultimate potential is worth mentioning, but doesn't count
> since his
> powers were artificially reduced to the usual levels.
What's the potential?
Dan McEwen
>
> "AJSolis" <ajs...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040307055459...@mb-m21.aol.com...
>> Other secondary mutations include warpath: He's had two actually,
> supersenses
>> and flight.
>
> Weren't the supersenses part of the original Thunderbird's powers?
Yes, but never part of James's abilities. I don't think you could fail
to notice having super-senses. It was definitely a change.
> They were not as strong as
> Wolverines, but still above human. Flight? Wasn't that a writer's
> mistake in the same way that one writer didn't know that M could fly?
> If not, then I guess we can add him to the list of people with
> secondary mutations.
It wasn't a mistake in the sense of the writer not knowing he couldn't
fly; It was a mistake to make him have that power. The story outright
said that it was a new ability.
Dan McEwen
news:7FF2c.1826$re1.536@newsfe1-win:
I wish he'd go and do that already. He and Living Monolith could make a
great pair on that one.
Patrick McClue
And then Galactus and Phoenix go out on a date.... :-)
Patrick
Patrick McClue
> "Patrick McClue" <mcc...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:c2f7q0$1s2n8d$1...@ID-183337.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> >
> > "AJSolis" <ajs...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040307055459...@mb-m21.aol.com...
> >> Other secondary mutations include warpath: He's had two actually,
> > supersenses
> >> and flight.
> >
> > Weren't the supersenses part of the original Thunderbird's powers?
>
> Yes, but never part of James's abilities. I don't think you could fail
> to notice having super-senses. It was definitely a change.
I see. I thought they always had the same powers.
>
> > They were not as strong as
> > Wolverines, but still above human. Flight? Wasn't that a writer's
> > mistake in the same way that one writer didn't know that M could fly?
> > If not, then I guess we can add him to the list of people with
> > secondary mutations.
>
> It wasn't a mistake in the sense of the writer not knowing he couldn't
> fly; It was a mistake to make him have that power. The story outright
> said that it was a new ability.
Understood ;-)
Patrick
AJSolis
>I'm still curious to know where those powers came from.
secondary mutations tricky as a classification is all those grey areas like the
fine line between natural and artificial, and how one can be sure if its a
mutation or a latent power.
>Curious: Has the Prof. ever lent anyone else telepathy? Was Changling a
>"latent psi" in order to do that?
I believe he just lent it to Changeling, and since Changeling also got
telekinesis from the deal, it would seem he had some potential in the psychic
arena to begin with. And as far as I know, he's only done that trick once,
either Xavier doesn't feel like giving his power away, or it's an unpleasant
experience or both I guess. :)
>I think with the Scarlet Witch, the idea is that she has always been
>channeling magic in order to affect probability. The chaotic magic bit is
>more of an explanation of her power source, rather than a new power in
>itself.
Well, at the least, it's an expansion of her powers. She used to have some
limits anyway.
>As said before, the first few issues of the New Mutants showed that her
>ultimate potential is to make her holograms solid. The only new power added
>on was her Valkerie-given powers.
Are you counting her psychic arrows as valkyrie given (probably are, but I'm
not sure)? Then her most recent upgrade was to quantum energy/reality
alteration powers, but that was (I believe) the result of someone with quantum
energy/reality alteration deciding to share. They even had the four versions
of Mirage meeting in that storyline.
>That could be the full expression of her power if she ever learned to
>control it properly. It seems that the Skrull and Sage gave her some
>control.
Yes, Rogue's powers seem to be a weird combination of shapeshifting and
telepathy.
>What was Gambit's ultimate potential?
Well, if Gambit is the missing summers brother as Mutant X suggested, than
Cyclops is the wuss of the family. At his full potential, Gambit can fly,
disentegrate objects at a glance, manipulate time (time travel, dimensional
travel, and just freezing ala charmed), channel kinetic energy to enhance his
strength and speed and give immunity to rogue's touch via an invisible aura of
power and some protection from injury.
Basically he can do anything any use of kinetic energy could accomplish in a
world with comic book physics. :)
Oh yeah, and there are two examples from X-Men 2099. Skullfire went from
energy blasts to becoming an entity of pure energy (so if iceman's
transformation counts, so would his), and their founder whatever his name is
started off with a hand with destructive energy, he later gained a healing hand
on the other as it were. :)
Patrick McClue
> >
> >I'm still curious to know where those powers came from.
> I think they came from his possession by Reignfire, but the thing that
makes
> secondary mutations tricky as a classification is all those grey areas
like the
> fine line between natural and artificial, and how one can be sure if its a
> mutation or a latent power.
>
> >Curious: Has the Prof. ever lent anyone else telepathy? Was Changling a
> >"latent psi" in order to do that?
> I believe he just lent it to Changeling, and since Changeling also got
> telekinesis from the deal, it would seem he had some potential in the
psychic
> arena to begin with. And as far as I know, he's only done that trick
once,
> either Xavier doesn't feel like giving his power away, or it's an
unpleasant
> experience or both I guess. :)
>
"What if every telepath on the planet gave their powers to Kitty..." no I
won't go there :-)
> >I think with the Scarlet Witch, the idea is that she has always been
> >channeling magic in order to affect probability. The chaotic magic bit
is
> >more of an explanation of her power source, rather than a new power in
> >itself.
> Well, at the least, it's an expansion of her powers. She used to have
some
> limits anyway.
>
> >As said before, the first few issues of the New Mutants showed that her
> >ultimate potential is to make her holograms solid. The only new power
added
> >on was her Valkerie-given powers.
> Are you counting her psychic arrows as valkyrie given (probably are,
but I'm
> not sure)? Then her most recent upgrade was to quantum energy/reality
> alteration powers, but that was (I believe) the result of someone with
quantum
> energy/reality alteration deciding to share. They even had the four
versions
> of Mirage meeting in that storyline.
>
Actually I forgot about the psychic arrows...but those arrows affected with
people's emotions, so they are still a variation of her 'main' psi power and
not a new power. The Valkyrie powers I was thinking about were the
death-related ones. Now, if she developed the quantum powers naturally and
kept them, I would count that as a secondary mutation. I don't know about
that period of her life since I wasn't reading X-Force at the time (but I
remember seeing Jennifer Kyle in the book). Can you tell me more about
Quantum Dani?
Would anyone remember that she also had the ability to talk to animals and
see through their eyes? Hey, maybe that was her secondary mutation :-)
Patrick
Dan McEwen
183337.news.uni-berlin.de:
Heh, yeah would be pretty funny.
~consul
> Sorted magAZine wrote:
>>Colossus was presumably more like Iceman - the extra mass is simply the
>>change in material.
> Change in material cannot change mass, unless more material is added.
> Colossus added a good foot of height and doubled his mass when he
> powered up.
Ice Density. :) And for Colossus, maybe he goes from solid inside to metal lattice inside?
BlakGard
>>> Colossus was presumably more like Iceman - the extra mass is simply the
>>> change in material.
>>
>> Change in material cannot change mass, unless more material is added.
>> Colossus added a good foot of height and doubled his mass when he
>> powered up.
>
> Ice Density. :)
10 lbs of water weighs differently when it becomes frozen?
> And for Colossus, maybe he goes from solid inside to metal lattice inside?
That still doesn't account for the doubled mass.
~consul
> ~consul wrote:
>>>Colossus added a good foot of height and doubled his mass when he
>>>powered up.
>>Ice Density. :)
> 10 lbs of water weighs differently when it becomes frozen?
>>And for Colossus, maybe he goes from solid inside to metal lattice inside?
> That still doesn't account for the doubled mass.
I would say that the mass stays the same, just how it is configured.
BlakGard
>>>> Colossus added a good foot of height and doubled his mass when he
>>>> powered up.
>>>
>>> Ice Density. :)
>>
>> 10 lbs of water weighs differently when it becomes frozen?
>>
>>> And for Colossus, maybe he goes from solid inside to metal lattice inside?
>>
>> That still doesn't account for the doubled mass.
>
> I would say that the mass stays the same, just how it is configured.
The mass doesn't stay the same though. We have proof of that. Piotr weighed
more when he became metal. Since the force of gravity stayed the same, we
can only assume that mass was added.
AJSolis
>death-related ones. Now, if she developed the quantum powers naturally and
>kept them, I would count that as a secondary mutation. I don't know about
>that period of her life since I wasn't reading X-Force at the time (but I
>remember seeing Jennifer Kyle in the book). Can you tell me more about
>Quantum Dani?
seemingly limitless energy with her reality alteration powers, two evil
eternals tried to harness her power for their own purposes, and it lead to such
wackiness as the four Danni's meeting up.
For anything more you'd need to talk to more of a X-Force fan.
Dan McEwen
news:20040309042004...@mb-m24.aol.com:
As an X-Force fan myself, I'd recommend pretending it never happened.
More and more, I'm convinced that the best X-Force happened while Adam
Pollina was the penciler. The book started going downhill when he
left.
Karl Hiller
> Sorted magAZine wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
> >>> dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks.
> >>
> >> It might be a similar place, but not the same place. That dimension is
> >> directly related to the Pym Particles, which has nothing to do with
> >> Iceman's powers.
> There's really no reason why Bobby's powers can't have something to do
> with Pym Particles.
> > Anyway, it doesn't work. Can't he partially ice up? Like having an ice hand,
> > but not the rest of his body? That would mean he'd be partially in and
> > partially out of another dimensino.
> The theory that I think works best is that Bobby is, in fact, an energy being
> that can transmute matter on an atomic scale. He doesn't really need a
> human body at all.
> There really isn't a real-life scientific way to explain any of the superheroes
> that transmute their bodies into another substance, obviously. So it's
> probably best not to give him (or Colossus, Sandman, Nitro, and a slew of
> other characters) a scientific explanation. In truth, just about any theory
> can work in a superhero universe.
I thought Hitesh had worked this all out YEARS ago!!!