Magneto Dark Seudctions #3 cover artist?
Luis
cover but can't recognize the signiture on the cover. Looks Jae Lee-ish
but thats not his sig and thats not Cruz's sig either.
Anyone else find this LS to be completely awesome. I look forward to it
every month. Major kudos to you Mr. Fabnic. You still give me hope for
the superhero genre. Keep it up.
Luis.
pip...@my-deja.com
between Magneto and Scarlet Witch which I'd really like to see. Don't
know if it will happen in #4. But that's just my wish. Fabnic's
storyline is really intriguing and it will be interesting to see how
all the piece fit together at the end. They'll be some ramifications
left over from this limited series.
David
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bruins72
news:8id69u$igk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Yes, this is a Limited Series with a meaning. Most of them really
don't affect much other than their own story. In this book it affects
the world. I also like how Fabian explained why Lorna was with Mags.
It makes perfect sense!
--
Bruins72 (the poster formerly known as Bigbear)
FabNic
>This series is very good. I keep hoping for a real confrontation
>between Magneto and Scarlet Witch which I'd really like to see. Don't
>know if it will happen in #4. But that's just my wish. Fabnic's
>storyline is really intriguing and it will be interesting to see how
>all the piece fit together at the end. They'll be some ramifications
>left over from this limited series.
>
>
Thanks for the kind words. A pretty strong VERBAL confrontation between Wanda
and Mags is slated for #4. Pietro and Mags as well.
And I do think (hope) that everything wraps up pretty neatly by the end, but
yes, there are a LOT of ramifications left over when all is said and done.
-- fabian
FabNic
currently draw Alan Moore's Promethea for ABC/Wildstorm Comics.
--fabian
B. David Harrison
What I'm wondering is why we have to suffer with the god awful art and
coloring on the inside.
I really, really like what's going on here. Fabian is doing some very
interesting things with Genosha (I'd actually like to see this a few
issues longer so that some of the other characters could be developed a
little more).
However...
The book is ugly- it's on the strength of Fabian's writing that's
keeping me from turning this into packing material. It just looks very
sloppy, rushed, and so gaudily colored. Maybe I can get issue 4 on tape
or something.
B. David Harrison Anti-Knuckleheadosity:Last Updated 05/28/2000
Live from Seattle A-Knuck's now monthly: www.drizzle.com/~bdavid
This issue of Anti-Knuckleheadosity:
Sports and Accountability, A Driving Lesson
"How else am I to get you to treat me like a man of weight and
substance unless I act as morally perturbed and angst-ridden as
everyone else in this room?" -The Beast
"This ain't no time when the usual is suitable" -Mos Def
FabNic
> What I'm wondering is why we have to suffer with the god awful art and
>coloring on the inside.
>
> I really, really like what's going on here. Fabian is doing some very
>interesting things with Genosha (I'd actually like to see this a few
>issues longer so that some of the other characters could be developed a
>little more).
>
> However...
>
> The book is ugly- it's on the strength of Fabian's writing that's
>keeping me from turning this into packing material. It just looks very
>sloppy, rushed, and so gaudily colored. Maybe I can get issue 4 on tape
>or something.
>
>B. David Harrison
If you haven't enjoyed the art so far, then hopefully you'll be pleased to hear
that issue #4 was VERY nicely done by two other pencilers: Michael (Cable) Ryan
and newcomer Jorge Santa Mariago.
-- fabian
Bruins72
news:20000616115131...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
Is Michael Ryan Marvel's new all purpose artist? Don't get me wrong,
I'm not complaing. I really enjoy Ryan's work. It just seems like he's
popping up all over and finishing other artists' work. I would've
loved to have seen him on this book with you from the get go.
You may have answered this before but... do you have any plans to
pitch a follow-up to this mini? I think it's obvious that the interest
is there. This mini has been very well received.
Keep up the great work!
B. David Harrison
> If you haven't enjoyed the art so far, then hopefully you'll be
> pleased to hear that issue #4 was VERY nicely done by two other
> pencilers: Michael (Cable) Ryan and newcomer Jorge Santa Mariago.
Woo Hoo!!!
Geez- Ryan is moving in on Anthony Williams schtick. What I've seen of
him (Ryan) is very nice.
Question, if you had the choice, would you rather make this series
longer and be able to spend more time on some of the politics?
Jerry Jones
>
> >
> Thanks for the kind words. A pretty strong VERBAL confrontation between Wanda
> and Mags is slated for #4. Pietro and Mags as well.
>
Hopefully, during the verbal confrontation Magneto actually has
something useful
to say, which hasn't been the case recently. I wish the series would
have
focused more on the relationships between Magneto and his children,
I think it would have made a much better story. The secret
of Carrion Cove doesn't seem all that important to someone like Magneto
who
already has similar technology, definitely not worth throwing his
relationship
with his children away. We really haven't seen a sympathetic
Magneto, at the end of the day he appears to be your typical generic
super-villian. As for everything wrapping up in the by next issue, I
doubt
it, the ramifications are simply too big as of this issue, I'm
interested
to see how this story will end.
Jerry Jones
Lacy3399
> I really, really like what's going on here. Fabian is doing some very
>interesting things with Genosha (I'd actually like to see this a few
>issues longer so that some of the other characters could be developed a
>little more).
>
I find this series to be very disappointing. This issue was mediocre --
not one of Nicieza's better efforts. A few issues longer? So it would be called
-- what? The Cortez-Voght-Cargill-Huxley-Polaris-Quicksilver-LIMITED SERIES?
Surely not the Magneto Limited Series it's supposed to be. Since we've seen no
character development for Magneto except in a backwards direction. Just my
opinion of course.
I think the art almost matches the writing in this issue. What was once
subtle now just reaches right out and hits readers over the head. The dialogue
was clumsy and confusing. There were plot holes.
After reading DARK SEDUCTION #2 I had the suspicion that all this series
would turn out to be was an excuse to make Magneto into a cackling
one-dimensional villain again. Politics, supporting players, the presence of
Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, the potential of the Genosha story-line --
all were window-dressing for what is essentially this story:
Magneto is an eveel bastard out to conquer the world, and he wants
something in these caves, so everyone has to stop him. It's the basic
stop-the-eevil-villain before he takes over the world plot. You might be
thrilled with the development of the supporting players, and the politics. I
happen to love Nicieza's writing when he gets into these conspiracies and
government corporations and politics.
But this time, as a Magneto fan, I feel I've been had. We've been moving
backwards for a few years now -- and by XM #85 we were told (by Mark Powers if
I remember correctly) that the regression would stop with the Magneto of UXM
#150. Briefly, all too briefly, Magneto had character and soul and heart, in
some parts of the Magneto War story, but quickly we started moving backwards
again. Through MAGNETO REX, and now DARK SEDUCTION. At present, it seems to me
that we've stopped around AVENGERS #47 through #53, and UXM #45; at least back
then Mags was clearly insane; heck, making that bullet graze Wanda's head
wasn't as bad as hitting Pietro and Wanda's heads together in DARK SEDUCTION.
I'm sure there is an explanation for Magneto's current behavior, because
at the moment Mr. Nicieza is doing a Magneto caricature, not a character. I
wait in hope that Claremont will (still waiting after all these years) tell us
what is really going on with Magnus, one of these days.
For those who like the rat-bastard Magneto, I guess you're not as
disappointed by DARK SEDUCTION (as a whole), as I am. But no matter how you
like your Magnetos, the fact of the matter is, DARK SEDUCTION #3 is not that
well written and certainly the art is about the worst I've seen from Cruz.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>Thanks for the kind words. A pretty strong VERBAL confrontation between Wanda
>and Mags is slated for #4. Pietro and Mags as well.
Is it going to be along the lines of:
Wanda: You are an evil twisted man, I hate you, I will always hate you, you are
not my father.
Magneto: I demand loyalty from my children, you have betrayed me, your life
means nothing to me.
Wanda: You evil rotten bastard, I never will forgive you.
Is that sort of like it?
Or is the "confrontation" between Pietro and Magnus going to be something like:
Pietro: You are an evil bastard, a man twisted by hate. I will never forgive
you. This was your last chance.
Magneto: How dare you challenge me, I am your father, (something about a
serpent's tooth -- how did it go in FATAL ATTRACTIONS?)
Pietro: I hate you, I will always hate you, you are an evil rotten bastard.
Forgive me for being so cynical, but this is not what I was hoping to
read in DARK SEDUCTION. This is the way it's been since Claremont left.
I'm still waiting (still waiting after all these years) for the
exploration of Magnus' relationship with his children; for the feelings and
thoughts that go along with a son needing a father, and a father needing a son,
but neither being able to accept the other. It's called writing, character
development -- but to pull this off, the lead character has first got to be
thought of as a three-dimensional complex person, capable of love, of growth,
and of change, NOT an eevil bastard who only wants to rule the world.
Mr. Nicieza, you are one of the few writers who can invest superhero
characters with the personalities and development that make them seem so real
-- Chris Claremont can do this too. But when it comes to Magneto, you just seem
unable to give Magneto and Magneto fans a break.
I hope I am wrong, and DARK SEDUCTION #4 shows us a change in Magneto, and
we see his humanity again.
Lacy
Paul O'Brien
<ram...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes
>Who was the cover artist on Magneto Dark Seduction #3. Really liked the
>cover but can't recognize the signiture on the cover. Looks Jae Lee-ish
>but thats not his sig and thats not Cruz's sig either.
That would be penciller J H Williams III and inker Mick Gray. They're
the regular art team on Promethea, which is well worth reading.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
Flowers: the practical alternative to capitalism, apparently.
Paul O'Brien
Bruins72 <bruins72@*REMOVE*hotmail.com> writes
>
>Is Michael Ryan Marvel's new all purpose artist? Don't get me wrong,
>I'm not complaing. I really enjoy Ryan's work. It just seems like he's
>popping up all over and finishing other artists' work. I would've
>loved to have seen him on this book with you from the get go.
Ryan is apparently an incredibly quick artist (at least by modern
standards), capable of producing perfectly okay work in the sort
of time it would take Joe Madureira to sharpen his pencil. There's
so few decent artists out there capable of meeting tight deadlines
that it's no surprise Marvel are giving a lot of work to Ryan. The
only other artists they've got who can draw at that speed, that I
can think of, are John Romita Jr and John Byrne, but they both have
two regular assignments a month already.
FabNic
>You may have answered this before but... do you have any plans to
>pitch a follow-up to this mini? I think it's obvious that the interest
>is there. This mini has been very well received.
Whether there are any more MAGNETO Limited Series or not always depends on
sales and the status quo preferences for the core titles.
I tried to do justice to Joe Pruett's L.S. of last year in terms of continuing
the story that was begun in the MAGNETO WAR storyline, while also trying to
logically advance the status quo to its next step.
I think we leave Genosha after #4 in just as interesting a place as it was left
for me, so whoever comes down the road to do another LS (me or anyone else) has
plenty of interesting fodder to play with.
>Keep up the great work!
I fully intend to, and hopefully you'll agree if you're reading TBOLTS, GAMBIT,
and my upcoming X-Limited Series and Spidey Limited Series...
;-)
--fabian
Bruins72
> >
> >You may have answered this before but... do you have any plans to
> >pitch a follow-up to this mini? I think it's obvious that the
interest
> >is there. This mini has been very well received.
>
> Whether there are any more MAGNETO Limited Series or not always
depends on
> sales and the status quo preferences for the core titles.
>
> I tried to do justice to Joe Pruett's L.S. of last year in terms of
continuing
> the story that was begun in the MAGNETO WAR storyline, while also
trying to
> logically advance the status quo to its next step.
> I think we leave Genosha after #4 in just as interesting a place as
it was left
> for me, so whoever comes down the road to do another LS (me or
anyone else) has
> plenty of interesting fodder to play with.
I've been enjoying the book so far. This issue wasn't the strongest of
the mini but still enjoyable. I didn't have the problems a couple of
others had with it.
That's a good idea. Tell your story but leave an opening for others to
carry on. I'd like to see this sort of thing continue with Genosha.
It's a fertile ground for stories.
> >Keep up the great work!
>
> I fully intend to, and hopefully you'll agree if you're reading
TBOLTS, GAMBIT,
> and my upcoming X-Limited Series and Spidey Limited Series...
> ;-)
>
> --fabian
I've been reading Gambit (and loving it) for some time now. I just
started picking up T-Bolts. My opinion on that one is still up in the
air. It's a little too Avengers-ish (but they're all reformed
criminals) for my usual tastes but if the story grabs me the right
way, I could stay with it.
Now that you've mentioned your two upcoming limited series, can you
give us any details? A while back we heard that you were doing an
X-Men story inthe vein of Avengers Forever but couldn't say more. How
about now?
Oh yeah, congrats on your Exy awards. They just posted the results on
X-Fan. Keep it up!
FabNic
>Is it going to be along the lines of:
>
>Wanda: You are an evil twisted man, I hate you, I will always hate you, you
>are
>not my father.
>Magneto: I demand loyalty from my children, you have betrayed me, your life
>means nothing to me.
>Wanda: You evil rotten bastard, I never will forgive you.
Is that sort of like it?
Or is the "confrontation" between Pietro and Magnus going to be something
>like:
Pietro: You are an evil bastard, a man twisted by hate. I will never forgive
>you. This was your last chance.
>Magneto: How dare you challenge me, I am your father, (something about a
>serpent's tooth -- how did it go in FATAL ATTRACTIONS?)
Pietro: I hate you, I will always hate you, you are an evil rotten bastard.
Wow, it's like you were inside my computer as the script was printing out!
With ten easy lessons, you too could be writing comics the Marvel way!
> Forgive me for being so cynical
You're not forgiven. It is expected that readers spending their hard earned
cash on their comics have no negative thoughts on the comics they purchase and
be nothing but respectful and butt-kissingly lavish in their praise of me. ;-)
> I'm still waiting (still waiting after all these years) for the
exploration of Magnus' relationship with his children; for the feelings and
thoughts that go along with a son needing a father, and a father needing a son,
but neither being able to accept the other.
And you may never get it, since for one reason or another, the characters are
never put in a position where they're allowed to do this.
Why? Well, most of the editors I've dealt with have not been able to buy into
the notion that Pietro and Wanda should have even the slightest interest in
having any kind of "real" parental relationship with Mags. And why should they?
He is really only their biological parent, and most kids raised by others don't
always have a yearning need to form a relationship with their biological
parents when they are adults -- much less 2 kids who turned out the way Pietro
and Wanda did and a father who turned out the way Mags did.
As a writer, I would love more opportunities to explore things in a quieter
way. As a COMICS writer, working on Marvel comics, and working on these
particular characters, the opportunity just hasn't presented itself.
Part of that I'm sure is my own fault for how I plot out my stories, part of it
isn't.
>you just seem unable to give Magneto and Magneto fans a break.
Well, your definition of Magneto and Magneto fans should be sub-categorized
into "fans of the more tragic, potentially heroic Magneto rather than the
drooling madman version."
There are plenty of fans -- including the editors I have dealt with -- who
prefer that Magneto be a villain.
In order to do that, he has to OPPOSE the "good guys." It's a REALLY tough
scale to balance -- make him sympathetic enough to warrant reader emotional
investment but not SO sympathetic as to make the main characters (i.e. the
X-MEN) end up looking like the bad guys.
Maybe Chris is better at balancing that scale than I am. Maybe I'm a bit better
than another writer would be.
DS is probably about 80% true to how I wanted the character to come across. 20%
was taken by the editors, which is clearly their right, since they have to
balance the ewntire X-Universe. I don't have to always agree with them to
respect the job they have to do.
What you see is what you get, like it or not.
> I hope I am wrong, and DARK SEDUCTION #4 shows us a change in Magneto,
and we see his humanity again.
>
>Lacy
And I'll sit here until the day your tongue falls off from arguing and contend
that in the few issues I have been able to write the character -- X-UNLIMITED
#2, X-FORCE #25, X-MEN #25, DARK SEDUCTIONS #1-4, he HAS been portrayed as a
villain with humanity, but I contend that you want to see him as a human with
no villainy in him.
You trot out your extreme of drooling madman of the 60's to prove your point
and I trot out my extreme of "Laundry-Folding Magneto" to jerk your chains
while the TRUTH is that the character has fallen BETWEEN those two extremes no
matter who has written him since Chris left the titles. But within the place he
does fall, there is about a 20-30% gradient interpretation depending on the
individual writer. So some lean nicer while others lean meaner.
I honestly think I kinda stand right in the middle.
I consider him a tortured villain. I try to write him as a tortured villain.
Sometimes, my editors have wanted to shave 30% of the torture away and add that
percentage to the villainous part.
It has often led to some wonderful arguments between us (including during this
L.S.)
Having read the character since around 1967 and seen his complete evolution
(and Lacy would say current devolution), I do not see him as a hero, nor even
as an anti-hero, never have, never will.
I am allowed my opinions both as a reader and as a writer. I have told you
directly enough times that as both of the above, I felt Chris went too far in
making Magneto too much of a sympathetic character that he was boxed into a
corner whenever it came time to use him as an opponent for the team after
Unc#200.
I do believe his status quo right now -- as it is left after DS#4 leaves him in
a very comfortable place as a bad guy struggling between the opportunity to do
good and a personal inability to choose that path.
Hopefully, if Chris uses him in the core titles, you will be entertained by his
ability to make him both a bad guy and a good guy at the same time.
Obviously, anyone else who has tried has failed to meet your exacting standards
for this character.
--fabian
CleV
>>you just seem unable to give Magneto and Magneto fans a break.
>Well, your definition of Magneto and Magneto fans should be sub-categorized
>into "fans of the more tragic, potentially heroic Magneto rather than the
>drooling madman version."
>There are plenty of fans -- including the editors I have dealt with -- who
>prefer that Magneto be a villain.
I wonder ...
Let's do a quick poll - who here (yes, I know we may not be
representative, but this is fun!) wants Magneto to be a villain?
>In order to do that, he has to OPPOSE the "good guys." It's a REALLY tough
>scale to balance -- make him sympathetic enough to warrant reader emotional
>investment but not SO sympathetic as to make the main characters (i.e. the
>X-MEN) end up looking like the bad guys.
Why can't the X-Men look like bad guys? Why can't they be wrong for
once? That might be interesting, no?
>Having read the character since around 1967 and seen his complete evolution
>(and Lacy would say current devolution), I do not see him as a hero, nor even
>as an anti-hero, never have, never will.
I have to admit, I _don't_want_ a villainous Magneto. That's done
now, we've had that, I want us all to move on.
>I am allowed my opinions both as a reader and as a writer. I have told you
>directly enough times that as both of the above, I felt Chris went too far in
>making Magneto too much of a sympathetic character that he was boxed into a
>corner whenever it came time to use him as an opponent for the team after
>Unc#200.
I just don't see why Magneto should be an opponent for the team.
Claremont was clearly building him up to replace Xavier _completely_
after UXM #200.
CleV
>On 16 Jun 2000 20:07:41 GMT, fab...@aol.com (FabNic) wrote:
>>Well, your definition of Magneto and Magneto fans should be sub-categorized
>>into "fans of the more tragic, potentially heroic Magneto rather than the
>>drooling madman version."
>>There are plenty of fans -- including the editors I have dealt with -- who
>>prefer that Magneto be a villain.
>I wonder ...
>Let's do a quick poll - who here (yes, I know we may not be
>representative, but this is fun!) wants Magneto to be a villain?
Just in case I'm misinterpreted - and we all know how easy that is
here - I'm not arguing that there may be fans for both cases. I
really want to know what proportion of the people here want a
villainous Magneto and how many want a heroic Magneto.
Crapnheimr
and the art. The problem most people seem to have with them is it's not what
they want. Which, really, you'll never get. First of all, the art is an
obiously more cartoonified (which is a technical term) than most other artists
use. The style of the times is to go for a more realistic, grim and gritty
look to characters and atmosphere ( ie. the much maligned X-Force and Gen.X
which i've stopped reading), but that's not Cruz's style. As an artist i can
say that being told YOUR style isn't right is purely laughable! I find Cruz's
style a breath of fresh air. I'm getting tired of all the attempts to be real
in comics. Hello, they have super powers and run around in spandex! So my
advice is to judge Cruz on HIS style not that of someone else.
As for Mr. Nicieza, he is supremely talented, and whoever the numbnuts was
that said they were angry because enough attention wasn't given to
Magneto...uh, shut up. It's called a different approach to storytelling.
Sometimes you can learn a lot about a character from the people around them,
which is why all those secondary characters are being fleshed out so well.
Also, you can learn a lot from a character by inference. I don't know if you
took the time to notice, but Cruz adds a little sly smile or a look on the face
of his characters sometimes that i find to be really telling. It's not that
Mr. Nicieza can't just post a thought bubble, but why do it when you can just
have the art say it. I guess if he did, he would then be too wordy (which also
appears to be a cardinal sin around here). The story need not focus X amount of
pages on the titular character just to fulfull what you think the story should
be based on ink on the cover page. I guess what i'm really trying to say
here is... lighten up. It's a wonderful story and wonderful art, as long as
you take the time to see if for the different artistic style that it is
DAVE
garj...@spamlessmadasafish.com
Paul O'Brien <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MbfL7HAz...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
> In article <3949A9A5...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>, Luis
> <ram...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes
> >Who was the cover artist on Magneto Dark Seduction #3. Really liked the
> >cover but can't recognize the signiture on the cover. Looks Jae Lee-ish
> >but thats not his sig and thats not Cruz's sig either.
>
> That would be penciller J H Williams III and inker Mick Gray. They're
> the regular art team on Promethea, which is well worth reading.
JH Williams is a class act in my view, Promethea would be worth reading
without any script and since it has Alan Moore writing then that makes it a
very good book. I wonder how log it'll be before JH Williams and John
Cassaday are tempted away to some higher selling books?
--
Cheers Drive!
Gareth
Jerry Jones
>
>
> >you just seem unable to give Magneto and Magneto fans a break.
>
> Well, your definition of Magneto and Magneto fans should be sub-categorized
> into "fans of the more tragic, potentially heroic Magneto rather than the
> drooling madman version."
> There are plenty of fans -- including the editors I have dealt with -- who
> prefer that Magneto be a villain.
How's about doing both?
> In order to do that, he has to OPPOSE the "good guys." It's a REALLY tough
> scale to balance -- make him sympathetic enough to warrant reader emotional
> investment but not SO sympathetic as to make the main characters (i.e. the
> X-MEN) end up looking like the bad guys.
It is possible to do both, in post I did long ago I wrote how
writers would portray Magneto, and then wondered why everyone
thought their version of Magneto was a madman. It is true that
the villains should never upstage the heroes, but if your goal is
to also show the villain as someone who not completely insane, then
you can't continue to have him going around committing mass murder.
Any sympahty you are trying to instill in the character is tossed out
the window.
> Maybe Chris is better at balancing that scale than I am. Maybe I'm a bit better
> than another writer would be.
> DS is probably about 80% true to how I wanted the character to come across. 20%
> was taken by the editors, which is clearly their right, since they have to
> balance the ewntire X-Universe. I don't have to always agree with them to
> respect the job they have to do.
> What you see is what you get, like it or not.
>
> > I hope I am wrong, and DARK SEDUCTION #4 shows us a change in Magneto,
> and we see his humanity again.
> >
> >Lacy
>
> And I'll sit here until the day your tongue falls off from arguing and contend
> that in the few issues I have been able to write the character -- X-UNLIMITED
> #2, X-FORCE #25, X-MEN #25, DARK SEDUCTIONS #1-4, he HAS been portrayed as a
> villain with humanity, but I contend that you want to see him as a human with
> no villainy in him.
I don't belive Lacy wanted a Magneto with no villainy in him, just a
Magneto that had scruples. I had no problems with X-UNLIMITED #2 or
X-FORCE #25, but as in X-Men #25 and DS #3 when the villain commits an
act so vile such as mass murder, then any humanity portrayed is long
forgotten.
Jerry Jones
Lacy3399
(some spoilers ahead...)
>> Well, your definition of Magneto and Magneto fans should be sub-categorized
>> into "fans of the more tragic, potentially heroic Magneto rather than the
>> drooling madman version."
>> There are plenty of fans -- including the editors I have dealt with -- who
>> prefer that Magneto be a villain.
>
>
>How's about doing both?
Exactly. Again, this is not an *either/or* Magneto. Fabian Nicieza's
description of a Magneto who is "...tragic, potentially heroic..." in no way,
(to me and thousands of other fans) contradicts Magneto's status as a villain.
It's the Marvel editors who apparently define "villain" as a drooling madman --
or in this case, a cartoonish, emotionally flat madman. Which is ironic since
it was Marvel that practically invented the tragic, potentially heroic comic
book villain, from Namor, to Doom, to Magneto. This is the type of character
that made me love Marvel, and has kept me a loyal reader for years.
>> In order to do that, he has to OPPOSE the "good guys." It's a REALLY tough
>> scale to balance -- make him sympathetic enough to warrant reader emotional
>> investment but not SO sympathetic as to make the main characters (i.e. the
>> X-MEN) end up looking like the bad guys.
>
>It is possible to do both, in post I did long ago I wrote how
>writers would portray Magneto, and then wondered why everyone
>thought their version of Magneto was a madman. It is true that
>the villains should never upstage the heroes, but if your goal is
>to also show the villain as someone who not completely insane, then
>you can't continue to have him going around committing mass murder.
>Any sympahty you are trying to instill in the character is tossed out
>the window.
I agree. The re-aged Magneto had scruples. He evacuated the Siberian city
before he forced the volcanic eruption in UXM #150. But, when the Leningrad
fired on him, he retaliated. And Magneto regretted the murder of the crew of
the Leningrad submarine for years after. Yet in DARK SEDUCTION #3, without a
blink of an eye or a second thought, he destroys an entire city just to
distract the Avengers? A city of Genosha, where mutates and mutants live? A
city of Genosha, the island he controls, the island he was handed by the UN?
This makes no sense! He was shown to genuinely care about mutant rights, about
creating a homeland for mutants. Even if he were secretly planning
world-conquest, what an incredibly stupid thing to do, to destroy Carrion Cove.
He can still be a villain, he can still employ methods and have goals
that are single-minded and potentially deadly. But this? This is even worse
than the EMP wave of XM #25. At least then, Magneto felt he had been attacked
-- the governments of the earth were attempting to exile him and prevent him
from ever returning to the earth. But in DS#3, Magneto destroys an entire city,
a city that he rules, because he wants some genetic technology that *might*
restore his powers? Show me the humanity!
Exactly, again. And Fabian, you have written the character with
humanity, in some of those issues you mentioned. How can you reconcile the
Magneto who weeps over Magda's grave at the end of UNLIMITED #2, who
reluctantly feels he has to abandon the earth and live among the stars, with
the Magneto of DARK SEDUCTION #3?
In the latter, even that brief moment where Magneto regrets he can't
reconcile with his children is turned into a joke by the speed with which he
dismisses this thought and immediately assaults Wanda and Pietro in a low-brow
and brutal way.
In XM #72, when Magneto kills Georg Odekirk, he lets Odekirk's wife sleep
the "sleep of the innocent" and executes Odekirk quickly by shorting out his
brain. In DS #3, Magneto demolishes an entire city filled with men, women, and
children, for no reason but to get to a cave and access some genetic
technology.
The Magneto of DARK SEDUCTION #3 has sunk to a low not seen since the
days of AVENGERS #110/#111, and AMAZING ADVENTURES #9 and #10. And the
frustrating thing for me is exactly the point, that Fabian Nicieza *can* write
Magneto with complexity, humanity, scruples, and motivations that make sense on
a human level. We've seen it before. We seen nothing of this in DARK SEDUCTION,
since every good deed or kind word of Magneto while ruler of Genosha,
apparently has been a ruse so he can get his powers back and conquer the world.
Lacy
Magnuskn
>Why can't the X-Men look like bad guys? Why can't they be wrong for
>once? That might be interesting, no?
See the last UXM annual , from Ben Raab and Anthony Williams . Although Exodus
*was* using the wrong methods , he was getting a very satisfactory result . The
interference of the X-Men was handled in such a way that they seemed to be
intolerant , rigid in their thinking and spiteful . Exodus was stating that he
had abandoned his bigotry . Okay , he attacked Nightcrawler , when Kurt told
him to turn off the mind-altering machine , but the X-Men should have discussed
, instead of demanding .
And what did the intervention of the X-Men bring ? Instant riots between Humans
and Mutants , and on-panel a death pair of lovers , one mutant , one human .
IMO , the X-Men are directly responsible for their deaths , and Forge
especially . Well , he always just was a cold fish for me ...
>I just don't see why Magneto should be an opponent for the team.
>Claremont was clearly building him up to replace Xavier _completely_
>after UXM #200.
>
And wouldn´t that have been nice ? Somebody as chief who gets actually things
*done* , instead of having a bunch of mutants sitting in a mansion , isolating
themselves from the rest of humanity .
If you remember the Shattering , the way Rogue and Kitty were enjoying
themselves at the disco seemed to me a sign of their yearning to get in contact
with other people outside of the X-Men again . Or maybe I´m proyecting some of
my real life problems into the comics . :)
Magnus
Magnuskn
>I tried to do justice to Joe Pruett's L.S. of last year in terms of
>continuing
>the story that was begun in the MAGNETO WAR storyline, while also trying to
>logically advance the status quo to its next step.
Sigh . Again , this may seem to be an attack against a writer , but frankly ,
Magneto Wars sucked so bad that it left a vacuum in my room , making me implode
messily .
The one-shot was extremely illogical ( The Acolytes came to the mansion to
find hints about Magnetos location . After the battle , Xavier turns down the
plea of asylum from the Acolytes to join , which is totally out of character
for him . Well , I could understand turning down Senyaka and some of the other
murderers , but some young mutants , and he doesn´t take the chance to bring
them away from Magnetos path ? That´s just as bad as him delivering Scanner to
the authoritys back then . Then , he explains , that he did so because he wants
to follow them to Magneto ... uh , hello ? They don´t *know* where he is !
*Then* , when the X-Men follow the Acolytes , they are following a totally
different group of them all of a sudden . *Where* did they come from ? *Where*
did the other ones and Cortez go ? And so on ...
I won´t even talk about the senseless killing of Joseph and the equally
senseless and stale Astra .
Ahem . Sorry for the rant .
In short , your series is most excellent and I actually like Cruz art very much
, although the colouring is abyssmal , in comparison to other stuff on some
regular titles . Compare it to work of the 80´s , it´s ok . :)
You having to do justice to a bad storyline is a joke , because your work is
so much better .
Magnus
ht...@webtv.net
representative, but this is fun!) wants Magneto to be a villain? >>
Count me in for the anti hero from UXM 274-275. My ideal Magneto
would be an antagonist for The X Men much like X Force was early in the
book's run. He would offer a viable alternative to Xavier's dream. He
would be ruthless against the enemies of mutantkind, never against
innocents.
To be fair to Fabian, until Lacy, everyone has raved about the
series. I like his writing but can't enjoy a series where Magneto is
depicted this way. I do think it's a stretch to call him a drooling
madman nor do I think he's regressed to his siver age days but how many
of the major silver age villains haven't evolved somewhat? Red Skull
and Norman Osborn come to mind but who else? Most have been given at
least some dimension..
I think Dark Seduction's Magneto does care about the mutant race but
will backstab or use anyone to advance his cause. Lorna was an ally as
soon as it suits his purpose to betray her, he does so without a second
thought. Isn't ii his job to protect the citizens of Genosha? yes,
until it's an inconvience than they become expendable pans like everyone
else. There are no innocents just pawns to advance his cause.
The first two issues showed us a restored Hammer Bay built on the
backs of human slave labor. Humans, none of whom were shown to be anti
mutate, are treated as second class citizens. They can't be out at
certain hours nor are they allowed to leave the country. Like the voice
in his head said, it only proves his iron fist is as strong as his
predecessors. I see a Doom wannabe, make the country prosperous ruling
with an iron fist while he bides his time in a bid for world domination.
Also when did Magneto start using the term flatscan to describe humans?
He is a mutant supremisct, plain and simple. Mutants should rule because
they're inherently superior, it is thier birthright. This was mentioed
several times in Magneto's appearances during Davis' run. Claremont's
Magneto wanted to protect his species from another holocaust. Even in X
Men 1-3, it's about living apart from humanity not dominating them.
I liked Magnet's characterization in XMU 2 and X Force 25, although I
could have done without his being so brutal with Cable. X Force was
brought to Avalon. treated with respect and given a choice which Magneto
honored. Any violent acts in that book were self defense. What stuck
out in XMU 2 was Haller's speech about Magneto. That this good person
thought so highly of this man's character. What good character ever
described Doom, Apocalypse or Sinister as a man of vision, courage and
honor? In short, Fabian can write a Magneto I like but he sure as hell
didn't in this series.
Obviously not everybody views characters the same way. It may seem
frustrating to Fabian but many fans of Claremont's Magneto are not going
to like this characterization. He's been written this way, the majority
of the time, since Fatal Attractions. I've come to expect it but I'm
never going to like it. Do I think it's going to change? it appears
not. I do think his act in X Men 72 ranks right up there with DS 3, he
murdered a defenseless old man, in cold blood, for what? we're not even
sure. The rest of his family is dead. Would the information make him
any more of a wanted man? I doubt it. It was an evil, indefenseable
despicable act imo.
Closing note to Fabian, keep writing Gambit the way you do and I'll
keep buying. I liked a lot of your early X Men and X Force work.
Matter of fact, I like most of what you write but I HATED the way you've
written Magneto in this series.
Sandstorm
with deja.com.
I haven't read Magneto: Dark Seductions #3 yet. Being unemployed and
broke, I might not read it for quite awhile. So this is wishful
thinking on my part. Yeah, I know there isn't a chance in hell of
seeing this kind of conversation between Wanda and Magneto, but
still......
Wanda: Is it worth it, Father? Pietro and my undying enmity, in
return for power?
Magneto: Sacrifices must be made for the greater good.
Wanda: You know something? All this talk about protecting mutants
from the wrath of humanity. You always seem to forget that our mother
was HUMAN!
Magneto: I have never forgotten. Her fear of me, is part of what
drives me to make those sacrifices.
Wanda: And what? You've never known any accepting humans in all your
life? Not Gabrielle Haller? No, she only defended you! Not once, but
twice! Right in front of the World Court. Or Moira, who attempted to
raise you as if you were her own flesh and blood....
Magneto: Do not **dare** mention Moira to me. Do not **dare**!
Wanda: Oh, and lets not forget Lee Forrestor, Father. That nice
**human** woman you were dating while you were posing as "Michael
Xavier". For all your talk of the "inferior" species, you sure like to
sleep with them, don't you?
:::Huxley blushes::
Magneto: It was complicated. She saved my life, believed that I
wasn't just some horrible monster out to serve only myself. That I
actually cared about my people. Unlike, my children, who could
**never** seem to realize that there might be more to me than meets the
eye.
Wanda: Right! And I never once invited you over to my house for a
holiday meal. <snaps her fingers> Oh, wait, I did do that, silly me.
Silly me, for thinking, for hoping, that we could try to forge a
relationship together! But no, you gave up on Xavier's dream! You
sided with other villains whose only motives were greed and power!
Magneto: Because I **had** to! To protect the New Mutants! Things
were getting worse for mutants in the U.S. They were talking about
registering our people! I could see where that was leading to. I
could see them putting us in camps! As the Germans had my people oh so
many years ago. I had to give them something else to think about. I
had to make them worry about me, so they would leave the New Mutants
alone. I did not care about the Hellfire Club and their petty power
plays, I just used them to turn the children against me for their own
good!
Wanda: Was it worth it, Father? Is it? Becoming just like the Nazi's
that butchered our family?
Magneto: It is..... necessary.
Wanda: No it isn't. Look at me! Look at my life. I'm accepted.
People accept me as part of the Avengers. In spite of my biological
relationship to you. They don't care. What matters is how I live my
life! That is what is needed to promote acceptance. Not fear and
terror!
Magneto: You don't think that I ever hoped for that, do you? I tried
to fit in, to belong. I allied myself with Interpol in order to help
others..... and to hunt down Nazi's. Despite what you may think, I did
not kill them. I turned them over to the Israel government for trial.
But then in my idiocy, I happened upon one allied with them. My reward
was the death of my lover. <Looks over at Wanda> Yes, she was human,
and they killed her for no other reason than to hurt me. Before they
attempted to kill me as well. For hunting down Nazi scum! They valued
him, more than me. Do you have any idea how that made me feel!?
Wanda: I.... I can't imagine.
Magneto: They knew about my outside activities, but since they could
**use** me, they did nothing until I went to far. Don't you see,
Wanda? When you have served your purpose you will be disposed of!
Just like any mutant who serves the human's government agencies!
Wanda: You're wrong. It's not like that.
Magneto: For both our sakes, I pray you are right. But for the future
of our kind, I must do this. Please, do not interfere, child. For I
will do what I must.
teepee
FabNic <fab...@aol.com> > Well, your definition of Magneto and Magneto fans
should be sub-categorized
> into "fans of the more tragic, potentially heroic Magneto rather than the
> drooling madman version."
> There are plenty of fans -- including the editors I have dealt with -- who
> prefer that Magneto be a villain.
> In order to do that, he has to OPPOSE the "good guys." It's a REALLY tough
It's only tough IMHO because Marvel editors seem to prefer black and white
interpretations of morality. Much of the vigilante superhero genre is based
on the ends jusifying the means to some extent. Yet it's Magneto's means,
and personality, that are used to distinguish laundry folder Xavier acolyte
from moustache twirling supremacist, not his intentions. There still seems
to be a lot of residual doubt among readers and writers about whether his
politics are actually evil (or is he instead a mutant Malcolm X figure etc).
That side has been hinted at in DS, like when Pietro helped the family
trying to flee Genosha. I'd like to see more.
But I've very much enjoyed thisLS so far, although the art wasn't to my
personal taste.
tp
FabNic
>Oh yeah, congrats on your Exy awards. They just posted the results on
>X-Fan. Keep it up!
I won an award? Wow. The second sign of the Apocalypse.
Officially, the world can now end.
--fabian
FabNic
>The one-shot was extremely illogical ( The Acolytes came to the mansion to
>find hints about Magnetos location . After the battle , Xavier turns down the
>plea of asylum from the Acolytes to join , which is totally out of character
>for him . Well , I could understand turning down Senyaka and some of the
>other
>murderers , but some young mutants , and he doesn´t take the chance to bring
>them away from Magnetos path ? That´s just as bad as him delivering Scanner
>to
>the authoritys back then . Then , he explains , that he did so because he
>wants
>to follow them to Magneto ... uh , hello ? They don´t *know* where he is !
>*Then* , when the X-Men follow the Acolytes , they are following a totally
>different group of them all of a sudden . *Where* did they come from ?
>*Where*
>did the other ones and Cortez go ? And so on ...
>I won´t even talk about the senseless killing of Joseph and the equally
>senseless and stale Astra .
>
>Ahem . Sorry for the rant .
>Magnus
>
No prob. Since I was scripting over someone else's plots on MagsWar -- and had
just returned to the titles after not having even read any of them for nearly 4
years -- I can only get hit by about 1/3 of the arrows you launched! ;-)
--fabian
FabNic
If that term appeared in Dark Seductions coming from MAGNETO's mouth, I don't
think it was something in my original script.
I don't see him using those kinds of terms to categorize humans.
To him, it's simply US and THEM.
--fabian
FabNic
I don't belive Lacy wanted a Magneto with no villainy in him, just a
Magneto that had scruples. I had no problems with X-UNLIMITED #2 or
X-FORCE #25, but as in X-Men #25 and DS #3 when the villain commits an
act so vile such as mass murder, then any humanity portrayed is long
forgotten.
And again -- AGAIN -- I posit that the actions MAGS took in X-MEN #25 were
clearly in SELF-DEFENSE -- both the e-m pulse to eliminate the defense grid
that would have denied him access to Earth and for what he did to Wolverine.
And in HIS mind, Mags would say what he did in DS#3 was also in self-defense as
well (his logic being that ultimately, the secret of the Fenyick Caves is more
vital to the future of a mutant safeland than the handful of lives that would
be lost when Carrion Cove was torn apart [see previous post about MAGS knowing
full well the Avengers and Polaris would save many of the lives he
endangered]).
--fabian
FabNic
defenseless old man, in cold blood, for what?
I won't discuss the specifics of a story I did not write, but as for DS#3, his
act was not "for what?" it was clearly for a purpose:
threaten the lives of the citizens of Carrion Cove (most of which were REBELS
who had fought his control for weeks) in order to occupy the Avengers so he
could have free access to the Fenyick Caves.
He knew the Avengers would save lives. He also knew Polaris would most likely
do so as well. He knew he was threatening his own Genoshan Army troops, as well
as a vastly larger number of rebels who had opposed him. He knew some people
might die or be hurt -- none of whom would techincally be considered
"innocents," since either side -- his own or the Carrion Cove rebels -- were
all soldiers fighting a civil insurgence.
And Mags also knows why he HAS to have the contents of the cave and why those
contents are vital to his quest for a mutant safe haven.
He weighs one against the other and makes his decision. Hardly the act of a
drooling madman, I'd say.
Notice also that he COULD have tried ot kill Pietro and Wanda from behind in
the caves, but wistfully chose simply to stun their noggins. Again, hardly the
act of a drooling madman.
So exactly how, during the course of ANY of these actions, has Magneto been
written in such a way to warrant the opinions that you have HATED (caps yours)
the way he has been written in DS?
--fabian
pip...@my-deja.com
responded to Magneto's last line with something along the lines of "And
if you do, I will be there to stop you."
David
Jerry Jones
>
> I don't belive Lacy wanted a Magneto with no villainy in him, just a
> Magneto that had scruples. I had no problems with X-UNLIMITED #2 or
> X-FORCE #25, but as in X-Men #25 and DS #3 when the villain commits an
> act so vile such as mass murder, then any humanity portrayed is long
> forgotten.
> Jerry Jones
>
> And again -- AGAIN -- I posit that the actions MAGS took in X-MEN #25 were
> clearly in SELF-DEFENSE -- both the e-m pulse to eliminate the defense grid
> that would have denied him access to Earth and for what he did to Wolverine.
>
And again, it is not strictly about motivation, it's the actions
he takes that have most people upset. Should Magneto have acted
when the defense grid was set up, of course, should he have
reacted in the way he did? No. Magneto in the past has shown that there
are certain lines he would not cross, such as the time in the Savage
Land
when he fought Zaladane, he did not use his full power out of fear of
the damage that could have been done to the earth's EM-field, Zaladane
on the other hand did not have this same concern. Magneto had to know
his actions would result in massive loss of life, if the grid had
offered
some type of immediate danger, then I could see him taking such drastic
measures, but in this case it didn't. As for Wolverine, I had no
problem with what Magneto did to him, what was this, the second or third
time Wolverine had taken a chunk out of him with his claws, eh. The
problem I had with this came afterwards, when Wolverine wouldn't stop
whining about it.
Jerry Jones
Jerry Jones
>
> >I do think his act in X Men 72 ranks right up there with DS 3, he murdered a
> defenseless old man, in cold blood, for what?
>
> I won't discuss the specifics of a story I did not write, but as for DS#3, his
> act was not "for what?" it was clearly for a purpose:
> threaten the lives of the citizens of Carrion Cove (most of which were REBELS
> who had fought his control for weeks) in order to occupy the Avengers so he
> could have free access to the Fenyick Caves.
>
> He knew the Avengers would save lives. He also knew Polaris would most likely
> do so as well. He knew he was threatening his own Genoshan Army troops, as well
> as a vastly larger number of rebels who had opposed him. He knew some people
> might die or be hurt -- none of whom would techincally be considered
> "innocents," since either side -- his own or the Carrion Cove rebels -- were
> all soldiers fighting a civil insurgence.
>
> And Mags also knows why he HAS to have the contents of the cave and why those
> contents are vital to his quest for a mutant safe haven.
>
> He weighs one against the other and makes his decision. Hardly the act of a
> drooling madman, I'd say.
>
Even though Magneto isn't running around in his underwear wielding a
hatchet, he
can still be considered a madman. Many villains, especially ones who
cling to some
sort of ideology, will rationalize their actions, but just because he
has justified
his actions in his own mind, doesn't mean others looking from the
outside-in are not
going to call him a madman. After all, Magneto's final decision was to
toss a entire
city over, and if he was at all concerned about the people of Carrion
Cove, as to whether
he thought Polaris and the Avengers would save them, he didn't show it,
with his comment
about human sacrifices.
> Notice also that he COULD have tried ot kill Pietro and Wanda from behind in
> the caves, but wistfully chose simply to stun their noggins. Again, hardly the
> act of a drooling madman.
>
The problem here comes afterwards, in which he casually dismisses his
relationship
with his children as "an acceptable loss", especially when a few panels
before, he
is languishing over his decision to knock them out. It kinda gives the
impression
that Magneto really doesn't care about them, and probably never did.
Jerry Jones
Terrafamilia
ht...@webtv.net wrote:
> Also when did Magneto start using the term flatscan to describe humans?
This also fell flat with me. It's just not a term that would come out of
his mouth. Would he ever call Lee Forrester a flatscan, even behind her
back?
> Obviously not everybody views characters the same way. It may seem
> frustrating to Fabian but many fans of Claremont's Magneto are not going
> to like this characterization.
Certainly, readers have their own ideas about how they would like Magneto
portrayed. I, for one, would like someone to set Mags down and tell him
that living well is the best revenge. He has a golden opportunity in
Genosha to stick it to all those who fear him so by building a country that
others don't fear so much as envy. Unfortunately, I don't know how
long-lasting his position in Genosha was ever meant to be. Is there some
overarching editorial guideline restricting the level of his success in this
endeavor? Heck if I know.
Ciao,
Terrafamilia
ht...@webtv.net
it off deja news so I can't cut and paste but I have replies for all
your points.
1) My, for what? was only referring to X Men 72 and not DS. I know
you didn't write X Men 72 and Magneto had a very clear reason for doing
what he did in DS 3.
2) Stop questioning me about calling him a drooling madman. I didn't
say he was nor do I think he is. This Magneto has a real cause, the
only cause the drooling madman of the silver age had was Magneto.
3) The way the book reads, Lorna has to push herself to new heights to
control Magneto's emp. What if she wasn't able to do it? How many
people would have died? I know it was a calculated risk he was willing
to take. That's the whole point he doesn't care who is at risk or who
gets hurt as long as it advances his cause.
4) You want me to congratulate him because he didn't murder his own
children when he could accomplish the task just as easily by knocking
them out. The way he's written in this series, I think he would kill
them if push came to shove. You keep mentioning "in his mind", of
course he's justified in his own mind, most villains think they are.
Norman Osborn really believes Peter Parker deserves everything he's done
to him, so by your logic he's not evil? I'm not comparing Osborn to
Magneto in level of evil, I think Magneto is much more complex. My
point is what made him sympathetic wasn't that he thought he was right
but that the reader sometimes thought he was right.
Why do I HATE his portrayal in this issue(boy for someone who
capitalizes all the time in your posts, you seem to find it annoying
when it's done to you)? I thought I pretty much listed the reasons
before but here goes
1) He's treating humans as second class citizens. They're not allowed
out at certain hours nor are allowed to leave the country. Issue 1
mentions a petition process which is invariably denied. None of the
humans in question were shown to have a anti mutant bias. So basically,
he's doing to them the same thing that he complains is done to mutants,
I know it's not to the same extreme but the principal is the same.
2) Lorna Dane is his ally throughout the series yet he throws her under
the bus the minute it serves his purpose. He needed a distraction, if
she was hurt or killed as a result of it, it was a justifiable
sacrifice. Nobody is off limits, there are no innocents he'll do
anything or use anyone and justify it with his cause. Sure it was self
defense in that The Avengers are attacking him but they're not putting
innocent lives in danger, he is. Your point about the rebels is well
taken but again you have the soldiers fighting on his side as well as
Lorna. All justifiable losses with he, of course, being the sole
arbitrator of what is justifiable.
3) You mention his cause, what is it? Is it merely a safe haven for
mutants away from humanity's prejudices or is it a springboard to use
in an eventual bid for world domination? One is sympathetic, the other
is not. Magneto Rex clearly stated the latter was the case it's also
been mentioned once or twice in the narration of this series. So you
tell me, which is it? I have no problem with the premise of a mutant
homeland. We're never going to be able to peacefully coexist, so you
leave us the hell alone and we'll do the same. In several of his X Men
appearances, from last year, Magneto spoke of mutantkind's inherent
superiority as well as claiming their birthright, which is to rule
humanity. I hate this version of the character. Claremont's post UXM
150 Magneto isn't spewing mutant supremacist garbage, he's trying to
prevent another holocaust.
You were interviewed in Peviews, months ago, about this series. You
mentioned a moral dilemma for Magneto. Does he crush the carrion cove
rebellion and appear to be the monster everyone thinks he is or does he
allow them to be the last holdout in his consolidation of the country?
If there was any dilemma on his part, I missed it. The way I read the
first issue he was persuaded to hold off by Huxley until she talked to
The U,N,. It appeared to me he would have preferred to end it
"decisively", as he put it, from the get go. There have been no moral
dilemmas or second guessing for Magneto in this series. The closest he
came was a tinge of regret over what he does to his children but again
that is an "acceptable loss." as is anything or anyone that might
endanger his cause.
I'm not under the impression that I'm going to change your view of
the character anymore than you're going to change. You've made your
views on how he should be written quite clear. Obviously a lot of
readers agree with you because until yesterday I hadn't seen one
negative post on the series. I do think there are a lot of readers,
like myself, who don't want to see him written this way but apparently
Marvel agrees with you. He's my favorite character and I'm going to
read any books he's in the hopes that someday we'll see Claremont's
Magneto again. At this point, it doesn't look promising. It's Marvel's
character and nobody has a gun to my head making me buy the books. It's
my decision, if I don't like an issue or series, I'm going to say so,
that's about as far as it goes. You as the writer are under no
obligation to do as I say but to write the most entertaining stories you
can. Like I wrote earlier, I like most of your work but not how you
wrote Magneto here. I'm not gong to stop buying Gambit because I didnt
like this series. I'll stop reading Gambit when and if I don't like
the way you write it.
pip...@my-deja.com
among his close circle of advisors? Just wondering since Scarlet Witch
realized that the carrion cove
oops spoilers just in case
technology could restore Magnet full powers. Is the power lose
something Pietro is aware of or is this just some deductive
observations on Wanda's part (which would be keeping in character for
her if it is)?
Lacy3399
>>I do think his act in X Men 72 ranks right up there with DS 3, he murdered a
>defenseless old man, in cold blood, for what?
>
>I won't discuss the specifics of a story I did not write, but as for DS#3,
>his
>act was not "for what?" it was clearly for a purpose:
>threaten the lives of the citizens of Carrion Cove (most of which were REBELS
>who had fought his control for weeks) in order to occupy the Avengers so he
>could have free access to the Fenyick Caves.
Magneto "...tears down the cliffside city of Carrion Cove..." and the
picture shows the cars, buildings, streets ... everything ... being not only
torn down, but thrown in every direction. It was total devastation. So he can
distract the Avengers? It's a purpose, but only someone insane would do
something like this.
It was a city, and rebels abided there, but so did families. Women and
children and babies. And from UXM #150 until the present, Magneto did not
deliberately try to kill women, children, and babies. Even in XM #25, as stated
earlier, Magneto felt the governments of the world had declared war on him. He
unleashed a display of power in the EMP wave -- and I think he was manic and
psychotic at this time. But it was clearly US against THEM at this point; the
very fact Magneto would endanger the lives of mutants with this EMP wave was a
sign to readers at the time, that he was not all there mentally.
>He knew the Avengers would save lives. He also knew Polaris would most likely
>do so as well. He knew he was threatening his own Genoshan Army troops, as
>well
>as a vastly larger number of rebels who had opposed him. He knew some people
>might die or be hurt -- none of whom would techincally be considered
>"innocents," since either side -- his own or the Carrion Cove rebels -- were
>all soldiers fighting a civil insurgence.
Magneto spontaneously, without thought, demolishes the entire city. He
did so for no other reason than to distract his attackers. The comic shows no
other motivation. This was a city of the country he is supposed to be ruling.
How he *would have* ended the rebellion, if Huxley hadn't talked him into
restraining his hand, we don't know, because you (the writer) didn't tell us.
If it would have been the same result, then I and other readers would have the
same complaint. Magneto would not kill innocents as an afterthought.
Magneto callously destroyed this city. Even his acolytes like Amelia
Voght were trying to save lives.
>And Mags also knows why he HAS to have the contents of the cave and why those
>contents are vital to his quest for a mutant safe haven.
Quest for a mutant safe-haven? I certainly hope so. The narration has
made it clear, including the final words of DS #3, that he wants to rule the
world, not create a mutant safe-haven. The contents of the cave, according to
the comic book, interest Magneto only so far as they can give him his powers
back! His motivation for destroying the city, is to get his powers back. He
wants to get his powers back, so he can conquer the world.
What next? Dr. Evil-Magneto and MiniMe? Oh well, we'll do what we always
do, capture some nuclear weapons and take over the world. Because that's all
that's really here, as far as I can see. And DARK SEDUCTION #1 and #2 had great
promise -- some good writing and subtle explorations of psychology and
motivations.
>He weighs one against the other and makes his decision. Hardly the act of a
>drooling madman, I'd say.
I never used the word "drooling." In the pre-Claremont books, he was
depicted with huge staring, sunken eyes, and characters routinely described him
as "insane," or hearing Magneto's "insane laughter."
But in DS #3, Magneto is insane. I don't know how people get the idea
that insanity, or acting out delusions and hallucinations while being incapable
of reality-checking, equals "drooling" or "insane laughter." If man hears
voices telling him that aliens are coming tomorrow and he needs to go out and
kill people to prepare for the coming, and he believes this is going to happen,
he will act with perfect calmness and even happiness while he plants his bombs,
buys his guns, and procedes to commit mass-murder.
Magneto is delusional -- delusions of grandeur, delusions of reference,
delusions of persecution especially. (I'd say he's hearing voices too, but this
is the Marvel Universe and we know some telepath or astral presence is
communicating with him for real :) Magneto has been "... a tortured man,
twisted by his own hatred and anger..." for decades, as Wanda says in DS #2.
You can call this PTSD or just the massive psychological damage done to the man
by what happened to him when he was a boy who survived the Holocaust.
But, Magneto is not mentally stable. Xavier even admitted there was
probably a lot of damage, back when they knew each other in Israel over 20
Marvel-years ago. Xavier let it go at the time ... for a variety of reasons ...
my point being, IN CONTINUITY it has been pointed out, that Magneto has mental
problems.
Whether it's "rational" or "logical" for Magneto to destroy Carrion Cove,
or physically assault his children is besides the point. These actions are not
the actions of the Magneto who we've seen since UXM #196, #200, and especially
UXM #274/275. They aren't even the actions of the Magneto from the first parts
of the Magneto War books, which I thought did Magneto some justice.
>Notice also that he COULD have tried ot kill Pietro and Wanda from behind in
>the caves, but wistfully chose simply to stun their noggins. Again, hardly
>the
>act of a drooling madman.
Magneto could have done a hundred other things besides hit them against
each other like that. It was low-brow and brutal. It harkened back to his
behavior in the days of AVENGERS #47 to #53. The choice, (especially for the
writer who could have chosen any means), is not between either killing them, or
knocking their heads together. Are you defending this plot-point by saying, "At
least he didn't kill them"? Geez. Some defense.
Magneto shouldn't even have had powers when he entered those caves. He
was powerless, and by taking some of Lorna's power at that point, he ensured
she would find him and follow him. This is one of the weaknesses of the story
-- Magneto walked into those caves without any weapon except his power. But, he
is supposed to be powerless. Okay, you gave him power -- which he shouldn't
have had at this point -- and you say he doesn't have any weapon he could have
used, to stun Wanda and Pietro -- why didn't Magneto use his power to put the
two to sleep:? Why did he have to physically assault them? The passing thought
-- about reconciliation -- is rendered a joke, not "wistful" -- by the needless
brutality of the act. And his follow up assessement -- "an acceptable loss."
Lacy
Lacy3399
That was very well-written. This is exactly the point I've been trying to
make. (I'm still hoping DS #4 will contain dialogue more like the above, and
not my examples from a few days ago.)
Lacy
Lacy3399
>The problem here comes afterwards, in which he casually dismisses his
>relationship
>with his children as "an acceptable loss", especially when a few panels
>before, he
>is languishing over his decision to knock them out. It kinda gives the
>impression
>that Magneto really doesn't care about them, and probably never did.
This is the fallout from DS #3 that saddens me the most. It was suggested
in DS #2, (when Wanda questioned Magneto about letting Cortez remain a member
of the Genoshan cabinet), that Magneto didn't care. Wanda accused him of not
caring about his children and his granddaughter.
Even Wanda could hardly believe Magnus would be that callous. Which is
what I got from reading that dialogue in DS #2. Wanda says, "Such
contradictions will prevent me from ever understanding you." Which I thought
was very well-written. If Wanda sees "contradictions" that means, she hasn't
entirely forgotten -- and Marvel and the readers haven't entirely forgotten --
Magneto's attempt to reconcile when she was married to the Vision. Wanda, as
the X-Men did too, recognized that Magneto had some capacity for love and
loyalty, esepcially to his family, especially to these children (and
grandchild) of his beloved Magda.
This could have been left ambiguous, but no, we have to see Magneto
completely dismiss his children, and any sympathy the casual reader might have
for him, by bashing their heads together, and calling this act "... an
acceptable loss."
There is no confusion any more. Magneto couldn't give a shit about his
children or his granddaughter Luna. I find this impossible to reconcile with
the Magneto we've seen for the last 20 years and I have to come to the
conclusion, that something is wrong here. Something ain't kosher. Magnus is
either so psychotic at this time, he is incapable of any positive emotions such
as love, hope, and loyalty, or he's been messed with.
My candidate for the messing, is Astra. Astra found the comatose Magneto
and experimented on him, shocked him awake, shfting him from one horrible
dimension-scape to another. He never had a chance to mentally recuperate.
Moreover, it's possible Astra deliberately planted something in Magneto, or
tampered with his cognitive processes in some way. A kind of fail-safe revenge.
If Joseph couldn't kill him, if she couldn't stop him any other way, what
better way for Astra to get her vengeance than to destroy forever Magneto's
ties to Xavier, the X-Men, and his family. Magneto acting in ways that are
similiar to his behavior during the first BOEM days -- Astra having complete
control over Magneto's mind and body before he showed up in the irrational and
insane "trial of Gambit" in UXM #350 -- this to me has significance. It's
possible that Astra has forced something in Magneto to become dominant --
similar to the way people with frontal-lobe brain damage become
hyper-aggressive, impulsive, unable to concentrate on things for long periods
of time, and especially, lose the capacity for deep emotional bonds as well as
the ability to take responsibility for their actions.
Just a thought, an attempt, to explain DARK SEDUCTION #3, because I can't
understand Magneto's actions in DS #3, otherwise.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>A general question for anyone. Is Magneto's power lose generally known
>among his close circle of advisors? Just wondering since Scarlet Witch
>realized that the carrion cove
This was one of the points I was referring to when I mentioned "plot
holes." I went back and read through DS #2, and I still can only find one
reference to Wanda suspecting something -- when she says "...He is holding
something back, I'm certain of it." I found no evidence that she had any idea
Magneto had lost his powers. Then suddenly, when she is in the cave, she
instantly recognizes what the technology is, and what significance it has for
Magneto. "...Or worse, Pietro ... he could use it to regain his own power!" We
see Wanda's thoughts about the matter in DS #2, and she gives no hint that she
even suspects why Lorna is helping Magneto.
I gather that the reason Magneto needed Lorna in the first place (and
Cortez before her) is that his power loss is a secret. A super-secret, that no
one knows about. Not even Apocalypse knew about it, which was why Apocalypse's
plan began to unravel.
Another thing that bothered me; how did Wanda show up at the entrance of
the cave, when she was on her way to the battle between Magneto and the
Avengers? I mean, I know *how* she did it -- she took a jet-transport -- but
she just happened to fly by as Pietro was confronting Cargill at the cave
entrance, and *saw* what was going on from the air? It's one of those
overwrought coincidences that people on this NG have been complaining about,
regarding another writer.
Lacy
Lacy3399
>I wonder ...
>
>Let's do a quick poll - who here (yes, I know we may not be
>representative, but this is fun!) wants Magneto to be a villain?
I forgot to answer this --
Count me as wanting the anti-hero Magneto. Or, as Mr. N. so perfectly
described the type of character I'd like to see: the tragic, potentially
heroic, Magneto!
From my favorite Magneto story, presented in UXM #274/UXM #275, as
Magneto prepares to kill Barbarus because Whiteout's information has no
"value."
Rogue: "You said you'd let them go."
Magneto: "If her information was worth the price. It is not."
Rogue: "Magneto, that's murder!"
Magneto: "No less than they had planned for us, Rogue."
Rogue: "That makes it right? We're the good guys., Right?! We're supposed t'
stand for something better!"
Magneto: [Narrating] "She actually believes that. Why can't I? All I see is
blood. That already spilled. That yet to be. I see my path so clearly. But I
turn away."
Magneto: "As you wish Rogue." [He spares the lives of Barbarus, Whiteout,
Amphibius, and other of the Savage Land mutates] "Never forget, you minions,
you take another breath because I chose to be merciful. Use the gift of your
lives wisely."
The following pages contain some of Claremont's best writing, what I
consider to be the "heart of Magneto" -- including his description of his past
"days of madness" and his desire not to harm the biosphere in his quest to
safeguard his fellow mutants; much of which has been overlooked and/or
forgotten by writers during the last few years. There is also the moving
description of Magneto's Auschwitz experiences.
But the quoted dialogue above seems to me to best represent Magneto.
He's capable of love (Rogue) and capable of reconsidering his actions, even
amending his actions to please her -- yet at heart, he not only doesn't agree
with her, he can't even understand her POV. In those few panels of UXM #274 we
see Magneto's compassion and his cruelty, his capacity for love and his
inability to give up past hates, his desire to do good, and his inability to
turn from the path of blood in order to so. All his past comes together
briefly, in UXM #274 -- Claremont weaves it all together -- and Magneto's
future is laid out in front of him.
This was the story from which future Magneto stories should have
followed, upon which future Magneto stories should have been built, in my
opinion. Instead, it seems (in the last few years) UXM #274/#275 have largely
been ignored.
But, that's my position on Magneto.
Lacy
CleV
>CLV writes:
>>I wonder ...
>>Let's do a quick poll - who here (yes, I know we may not be
>>representative, but this is fun!) wants Magneto to be a villain?
> I forgot to answer this --
> Count me as wanting the anti-hero Magneto. Or, as Mr. N. so perfectly
>described the type of character I'd like to see: the tragic, potentially
>heroic, Magneto!
> From my favorite Magneto story, presented in UXM #274/UXM #275, as
>Magneto prepares to kill Barbarus because Whiteout's information has no
>"value."
<snip>
> The following pages contain some of Claremont's best writing, what I
>consider to be the "heart of Magneto" -- including his description of his past
>"days of madness" and his desire not to harm the biosphere in his quest to
>safeguard his fellow mutants; much of which has been overlooked and/or
>forgotten by writers during the last few years. There is also the moving
>description of Magneto's Auschwitz experiences.
> But the quoted dialogue above seems to me to best represent Magneto.
>He's capable of love (Rogue) and capable of reconsidering his actions, even
>amending his actions to please her -- yet at heart, he not only doesn't agree
>with her, he can't even understand her POV. In those few panels of UXM #274 we
>see Magneto's compassion and his cruelty, his capacity for love and his
>inability to give up past hates, his desire to do good, and his inability to
>turn from the path of blood in order to so. All his past comes together
>briefly, in UXM #274 -- Claremont weaves it all together -- and Magneto's
>future is laid out in front of him.
Maybe it's because I've just re-read UXM #200, but even this Magneto
is too villainous for me. He's been through all that already - UXM
#200 was the end result - a Magneto who understood the dangers of the
path he had trod and chose another way. This Magneto would have
understood her POV full well.
The problem was that CC had to rebuild his ground all over again after
Byrne and others (?) had moved the character in the opposite direction
in Acts of Vengeance.
I loved UXM #274-5 too (among other things, the perfect meshing of Jim
Lee and CC were a joy to behold after the years in the wilderness),
but in the context of what had happened in #200, it was a regression.
Aleph Press
: Quest for a mutant safe-haven? I certainly hope so. The narration has
: made it clear, including the final words of DS #3, that he wants to rule the
: world, not create a mutant safe-haven. The contents of the cave, according to
: the comic book, interest Magneto only so far as they can give him his powers
: back! His motivation for destroying the city, is to get his powers back. He
: wants to get his powers back, so he can conquer the world.
Actually, i didn't see that. The *characters* all talk about Magneto
wanting to conquer the world. But except for the very last line about
polaris costing him the world, which looks like typical Marvel hype on
the last page, there's no indication that Magneto wants anything beyond
his powers back.
I think this is unfortunate-- possibly in character, but unfortunate,
because it's taking the character ina direction I'm sure Marvel is not
going to follow up on. What we are seeing here looks to *me* like magneto
the junkie. He's terrified of his own lack of power (with good reason--
he has lots of enemies-- but still), and he *needs* it. Lorna's thought
about enjoying the rush magneto gives her makes it clear that high-order
magnetic manipulation is a drug; Magneto is an addict and he's pushing it
on Lorna because only through her can he get his fix, which must be
infuriating for him because all his empowered life he could get it
himself.
This fits Magneto's history. He used to build doodads to boost his power;
he pushed his powers when he *knew* they were hurting him; he can't
refrain from using his power even when it causes him extreme pain to do
so. So, magneto is utterly obsessed with getting his powers back, to the
point where he will kill innocent people and backstab his kids.
This is a perfectly valid portrayal. The problem with it is that Marvel
won't explore the appropriate story arc. When you do a story about an
addict slowly succumbing to his addiction, you should track that
addiction over time, watch family and friends abandon or try to save the
character, and eventually end with the character either beating back his
addictoin, or not, but either way it needs to be made explicit that it
*is* an addiction. However, when you do it in the context of a political
book about a ruthless supervillain making hard political choices, it's
going to confuse the hell out of people. *Most* people are going to see
Magneto's act as a prelude to world conquest (since why does he need his
powers to keep Genosha safe? Genosha seems plenty safe without them; he's
successfully turned the country around and united the whole warring
nation except for Carrion Cove.) And that's what it would make sense as,
given that this is a political book, except that once again, Magneto does
not appear to have *any* concern outside getting his powers. He doesn't
consider making an army of mutates, he doesn't consider amplifying his
allies, he willingly betrays his most loyal followers and allies (a
stupid act for a man who's about to engage in a major military campaign),
so he can get his powers back.
If I thought Marvel was going to be courageous and allow the characters
to *recognize* that Magneto is an addict and probably needs intervention
(which is hard in and of itself-- how do you do an intervention on a man
who's addicted to a substance his body can naturally generate? And who's
brilliant enough to get around anything you do to him to stop him from
generating it?), i'd applaud this. But what I think is going on is either
a poorly written Magneto-out-for-world-conquest plot, or a well-written
Genoshan political book that suddenly makes a left turn into a
well-written story about magneto's addiction, but if it's the second case
the transition is jarring *and* I doubt it will actually be followed up on.
Oh well. I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong.
--
~promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep~
Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@mindspring.com al...@netcom.com
All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.alara.net .
Lacy3399
>Actually, i didn't see that. The *characters* all talk about Magneto
>wanting to conquer the world. But except for the very last line about
>polaris costing him the world, which looks like typical Marvel hype on
>the last page, there's no indication that Magneto wants anything beyond
>his powers back.
I hope that's the case. But this is the "sequel" so to speak, of MAGNETO
REX. And the narration says quite specifically "... A part of him is proud ..
another disappointed .. but mostly just infuriated that this delay might cost
him ... the world!" I think that last sentence has to be considered part of
the narrative, and not hype. As I said, I hope I'm wrong! But as of DS #3,
underneath all the politics and conniving and betraying (which is, except for a
few plot holes, well-written) I see nothing but a story of eevil villain
Magneto attempting to gain the power he needs to attain world domination.
>I think this is unfortunate-- possibly in character, but unfortunate,
>because it's taking the character ina direction I'm sure Marvel is not
>going to follow up on.
I don't see this as being in character.
>What we are seeing here looks to *me* like magneto
>the junkie. He's terrified of his own lack of power (with good reason--
>he has lots of enemies-- but still), and he *needs* it. Lorna's thought
>about enjoying the rush magneto gives her makes it clear that high-order
>magnetic manipulation is a drug; Magneto is an addict and he's pushing it
>on Lorna because only through her can he get his fix, which must be
>infuriating for him because all his empowered life he could get it
>himself.
This is a very good theory, and Magneto's need for his power might
possibly be physical as well as psychological (he is terrified of being
"powerles," of being merely "human" as he was in Auschwitz), but there is
nothing in either the MAGNETO REX series, or the DARK SEDUCTION series to
suggest that this is what the X-editors and Mr. Nicieza intend as the central
theme.
In other words, I think addiction to power is a sub-theme of the series
-- that's one of the meanings of the series title "Dark Seduction" -- but I
seriously doubt it's the main theme, or this wouldn't be a political book about
Genosha and all those political factions. It would be focusing on Magneto and
his inner turmoil.
I do think Mr. N. has portrayed Magneto a-priori as being addicted to his
power, and he's clearly exploring Lorna's growing addiction. But I believe you
are reading too much into this series of what you would like to see.
>This fits Magneto's history. He used to build doodads to boost his power;
>he pushed his powers when he *knew* they were hurting him; he can't
>refrain from using his power even when it causes him extreme pain to do
>so. So, magneto is utterly obsessed with getting his powers back, to the
>point where he will kill innocent people and backstab his kids.
Again, I think you are using examples from Magneto's history
out-of-context to make your case. Magneto has been utterly obsessed, in his
times of madness, with rulling the world, or creating an army of mutates, and
this is why he built machines and devices to boost his powers. His motivation
for building that magnetosphere altering power-booster that sparked the
"Magneto War" was not *an addiction to his magnetic powers* but rather the need
to hold the world hostage so that the governments of the world would meet his
demands. He acted as a terrorist for political reasons, not because he is a
junkie.
Not that I doubt he is addicted to his power. I very much like that
explanation. I just don't see this series, or any Marvel series, using this
idea to explalin or justify Magneto's actions in the past, or presently.
>This is a perfectly valid portrayal.
I respectfully disagree. I think DS #3 has presented one of the most
invalid portrayals of Magneto we've seen in years.
You have two things going on here. One, is Marvel's confusion over
Magneto's motives during Magneto War, and his winning of Genosha. DId he hold
the world hostage in order to create a mutant homeland? I thought he did!
That's what Ferris the robot told the UN. (Whatever happened to Ferris,
anyway?) But then, during MAGNETO REX, and even before when Xavier expresses
his fears, we find out Magneto only wants Genosha as a stepping stone, to
conquer the world.
I was hoping this could be explained as: (a) Xavier's paranoia regarding
Magneto, and (b) the narration in MAGNETO REX #1 didn't count, as it was
third-person and outside the character, looking on.
In DARK SEDUCTION #1, and #2, there were several indications that Nicieza
and the X-editors would back-off from that world conquerer stuff, and show a
Magneto who had taken the role of ruler of Genosha to heart. But by the end of
DS #3, it is clear, that Magneto has ceased to care about anything except
regaining his powers, so he can move on with his plans of world domination --
no doubt, in his mind, to protect mutants from persecution -- but world
domination nonetheless.
The SECOND thing going on, is a story of *power* -- the misuse of power,
the addiction to power, the way power corrupts and how the quest for power
causes people to act. There is nothing here about the specific story of
Magneto's addiction to his own magnetic powers; rather a generalized story of
Magneto's relationship to *power* in several different manifestations. I think
this was potentially a great story; DS #1 and DS#2 started to tell this story.
But by DS #3, with Magneto reduced to a mass-murderer once again, and the
narration telling us exactly why he wanted his magnetic powers back, the
story-arc has become nothing but another let's-stop-the-villain-from-conquering
the world yarn.
I hope DS #4 changes this! I really do! But I don't see that happening.
Polaris will be the heroine, and will be able to throw off Magneto's influence,
and the temptations of power, to defeat the bad guy (Magneto) and Magneto will
have the usual confrontation with Wanda and Pietro where they tell him, and the
readers, once again how much they hate him and how eevil he is, and Magneto
will come away from this series with even more crimes to his name, and even
less of the personality that I came to care about so much when I read the X-MEN
in the 1980s.
>However, when you do it in the context of a political
>book about a ruthless supervillain making hard political choices, it's
>going to confuse the hell out of people. *Most* people are going to see
>Magneto's act as a prelude to world conquest (since why does he need his
>powers to keep Genosha safe?
It is a political book, and a typical superhero book, and not a book
about Magneto's struggle with addiction. I wish it were! I don't think there's
anything confusing about the final narration. It's third-person, but clearly
describing Magneto's thought-processes. You've stated the reasons why his
actions make little sense, except in the context of a story about Magneto's
struggle with addiction, but this isn't a story about Magneto's struggle with
addiction (in fact, I think it's pretty much a given that Magneto *is* addicted
to is powers) rather it's a story about Magneto's relationship with *power* --
all kinds of power. And I maintain, and this is my opinion, that the
presentation of Magneto in DARK SEDUCTION #3 is not valid, and is not in
character, precisely because it fails to show Magneto's struggle with these
concepts of power; his scrupples, his conscience, his doubts.
Even an addict has to struggle. Even a junkie has feels guilt, self-hate,
and continuously struggles to get off the train. We see nothing of Magneto's
humanity, his feelings of shame or guilt at having to kill so many people. He
dismisses this as sacrifices "...in the service to the greater good of
mutantkind." This is a Magneto who is no longer struggling, he has arrived. I
contend that this is not something he could think, or do, or rationalize,
without having become psychotic, or "insane," or having been tampered with in
some way.
Lacy
Bruins72
news:20000617093052...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
Two awards actually! Head over to
http://www.fandom.com/x-men/editorial.asp?action=page&obj_id=206269
Gambit ranked pretty well too.
-
Bruins72
FabNic
a poorly written Magneto-out-for-world-conquest plot, or a well-written
Genoshan political book that suddenly makes a left turn into a
well-written story about magneto's addiction
Or (hopefully):
C) a well-written Genoshan political book about Magneto wanting to consolidate
and control a haven for mutants and damned what anyone ELSE thinks his motives
and goals are.
The ONE thing this Limited Series was NOT going to be from Magneto's actions
and words was a "conquer the world" story.
He can't help it if that's what OTHERS claim his actions to be.
--fabian
FabNic
>> >Oh yeah, congrats on your Exy awards. They just posted the results
>on
>> >X-Fan. Keep it up!
>>
>>
>> I won an award? Wow. The second sign of the Apocalypse.
>> Officially, the world can now end.
>>
>> --fabian
>
>Two awards actually! Head over to
>
>http://www.fandom.com/x-men/editorial.asp?action=page&obj_id=206269
>
>Gambit ranked pretty well too.
>
Would be a whole heckuva lot nicer if they had a more recent picture that shows
me minus about ten pounds of chin there...
;-)
--fabian
ht...@webtv.net
wanting to conquer the world. But except for the very last line about
polaris costing him the world, which looks like typical Marvel hype on
the last page, there's no indication that Magneto wants anything beyond
his powers back. >>
It's more than just the characters, the narrative text has said it
several times. The narrative text in Magneto Rex, says it there is also
his dream sequence, from an X Men issue during the twelve storyline, he
speaks of mutantkind claiming their birthright. The narrator is telling
you what he's thinking, what else would you like? We're not going to
see him formulating plans for world conquest when he hasn't even
consolidated Genosha yet.
<<This fits Magneto's history. He used to build doodads to boost his
power; he pushed his powers when he *knew* they were hurting him; he
can't refrain from using his power even when it causes him extreme pain
to do so. So, magneto is utterly obsessed with getting his powers back,
to the point where he will kill innocent people and backstab his kids.
This is a perfectly valid portrayal>>
I don't believe Magneto post UXM 150 until Fatal Attractions would
endanger or kill innocent people to gain his powers back. I also think
you're overstating the addiction. The text says he's known about this
equipment for months, why wait until now to act? I know he had Lorna
but the lomger they're connected, the more she learns making her that
much more formidable should she beome an adversary again. If he were
this crazed power junkie, he wouldn't have been able to bide his time
before acting. I do think he's in denial about what using his power
does to his brain. He's probably convinced himself that everything
Moira told him is a lie.
I also agree with Lacy that you're taking acts of hs and assigning
different motives than he actually had at the time. He builds these
machines to further his agendas not to get a personal power fix. Of
course he enjoys the power in that the more power he has the easier it
is to achieve his goals.
Shawn Hill
: If you haven't enjoyed the art so far, then hopefully you'll be pleased to hear
: that issue #4 was VERY nicely done by two other pencilers: Michael (Cable) Ryan
: and newcomer Jorge Santa Mariago.
So, the fill-in king and a newcomer? Always dodgy to change artists in a
mini-series, I think. I guess its not as important in this book as people are
buying it for the writing and the characters more than the art, anyway.
After my confusion as to who's who in number 2, number 3 seemed much clearer to me.
I loved the use of the Avengers (perfectly in character with what's happening in
their book right now); I think they looked pretty powerful, too. Of course, I also
studied all three issues to try to get clear on what was going on. The revelation
wasn't quite the big surprise I'd hoped for (I thought some surprising characters
were being hid away, not a bunch of machinery); but Quicksilver, Wanda, Lorna, Jan,
even Triathlon all felt very much like themselves.
Now if only Cortez and Pipeline and Philip looked in any way different from each
other. Wayyyy too many ponytails.
Thank god there's no Exodus, at least.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: B. David Harrison writes:
: disappointed by DARK SEDUCTION (as a whole), as I am. But no matter how you
: like your Magnetos, the fact of the matter is, DARK SEDUCTION #3 is not that
: well written and certainly the art is about the worst I've seen from Cruz.
Interesting. I thought No. 3 was far superior to No. 2 (which was crammed with way
too many simultaneous threads). And I don't think Mags is quite consumate,
cardboard evil. He expresses regret for taking out his kids; but he's obviously in
a desperate race to achieve his goals by any means necessary. He's never been the
passive manipulator that Xavier is; he's active, which is why he's gotten as far as
he has.
Shawn
FabNic
>My question is, who wrote the narrative text for the books? I assume it was
you, there are at least 3 references to a desire for more than just Genosha, 1
in issue 2 and 2 i issue 3.
You're the writer of the series if you don't know what the characters are
really thinking, who does?
What is the last line of issue 3 supposed to mean but what it says? The
narrator is telling us what Magneto is thinking. My assumptions aren't based
on what The Avengers or Wanda or Pietro say, it's understood they think he
wants world domination. When the narrator tells us he wants the world, what
else should we assume?
>
That the writer is purposefully cheating you by creating a narrative voice that
is assumptive in nature? ;-)
Sorry to throw you off there, Htuom, but my narrative voice in Magneto takes on
the role of assumptive participant -- meaning, when it's not blathering about
explaining status quo or powers or names, it's attempting to create tension
through its assumption of character motives moreso than having any clear
awareness of
the characters true motivations.
Why do it this way? Because I'd rather let the narrative make you think about
what the characters are or aren't thinking while their actions eventually speak
for themselves.
It's also a cliffhanger, so you always ratchet up the tension level a bit
anyway to try and create that 30 day sizzle.
Is it a cheat? In way, I guess it's a bit of one, but the narrative voices I
have evolved over my career (in view in DS, Gambit or Thunderbolts currently)
tend to be more of a questioning nature one than an answering one.
I'd rather use them to try and make the readers consider the various
possibilities until such time as the character answers the questions posed by
their actions.
Sorry if you don't like it. But manipulating you and pissing you off is part of
the fun. ;-)
-- fabian
FabNic
>and deeds all showed the same total disdain for inocent life, love, family,
>loyalty -- all stuff that Magneto cared about in the past, even when he did
>some terrible things.
>
>Lacy
>
So because he did those terrible things within the context of your assumptive
"care," that makes DS#3 a set-back?
Because he makes a clear-cut decision that his need for the genetic technology
outweighs his need for his children's fealty?
Boy, better in my mind he make the decision he made then, because otherwise,
he'd have to be an idiot to keep "hoping" PIetro and Wanda will "understand"
him and "love him."
I'd rather he be a bastard than a fool.
And I don't think he is being a bastard in this Limited Series, just very
confident and calculating about what he is doing and why.
--fabian
Lacy3399
>So because he did those terrible things within the context of your assumptive
>"care," that makes DS#3 a set-back?
No, because of all the things I've already mentioned, and the quotes from
past issues, including DS #1 and DS#2 that I've posted here.
Magneto has been shown to care about taking innocent life. It was revealed
that he once had a wife and family -- and it has been fairly consistently shown
that he has very strong feelings about his "family" -- i.e., his grown
children. Magneto is deeply concerned about loyalty -- he has been shown to
become bitter and enraged when he perceives he's been betrayed.
These emotional reactions, these scruples, these feelings of guilt and/or
shame he feels for some of the deeds he's done, his struggle with himself, are
all part of the character. This is what makes Magneto, Magneto! To take these
parts of him away, is to go backwards to the one-dimensional Magneto of the
early years. Some readers WANT that Magneto back. There are many, many of us
who don't.
The irony is, Mr. N., DS #1 and DS#2 did show us, or at least hint at, the
inner struggles of Magneto! You're justifying DS #3, where you had Magneto
destroy an entire city of the country he rules, in order to distract a
superhero team (and the various factions who could have stopped him). You
wrote the dialogue, having Magneto call this mass murder a "distasteful
display..." as if the only thing he feels guilty about is the lack of class he
showed in the way he murdered perhaps thousands. I do not accept Magneto as a
mass-murderer; not like that. This is more like the Magneto of UXM #4, when he
left that nuclear bomb to blow up Santo Marco and only the speed and morality
of Pietro saved Magnus from being guilty of such a terrible crime.
>Because he makes a clear-cut decision that his need for the genetic
>technology
>outweighs his need for his children's fealty?
His need for the genetic technology is to restore his powers.
And it was the way he assaulted Wanda and Pietro -- it was unneccessarily
brutal. And it was the way he dismissed the deed. As several of us have stated,
the writer could have done it another way. It was established (but hasn't been
100% follow-up on) that Magneto cares about children; he usually won't hurt
children, and one of the indications he was insane during the early BOEM days,
was how brutally he treated Wanda and Pietro. Once he was re-aged, and
recovered his sanity (to whatever extent he recovered it), and discovered Wanda
and Pietro were his children, the children of Magda, it seems unthinkable that
he'd ever physically hurt them again, except if he were out of his mind again.
Which he was during FATAL ATTRACTIONS.
>Boy, better in my mind he make the decision he made then, because otherwise,
>he'd have to be an idiot to keep "hoping" PIetro and Wanda will "understand"
>him and "love him."
Again, you're setting up an either/or situation -- either Magneto
assaults his children and turns them into enemies again, or he's a "fool." I
think there were several other options you could have taken -- and you have
already posted to this NG about how Marvel editorial is not going to allow any
reconciliation or attempt at communication between father and children, so it's
kind of a moot point, I guess.
But in the story itself Magneto must be a fool, because he still thinks
there could have been a reconciliation, if he hadn't hit their heads together.
That's what he says; so by your definition, he must be a "fool."
I think this desire to have some kind of relationship with his children
makes this character, (this super-powered heroic villain), human. This is a
part of what makes Magneto who he is today. And Pietro's thoughts, throughout
the QUICKSILVER series, and MAGNETO REX, seemed to indicate his own mixed
feelings; he both fears and distrusts Magneto, but needs to establish some kind
of bond with his natural father. Wanda has made it perfectly clear, that she
considers Django Maximoff her father. But even so, she questions Magneto in DS
#2 about his motives for allowing Cortez in his cabinet, saying, she will never
understand him [Magneto] -- implying that she still hasn't written off her
natural father as an eevil rat-bastard.
>I'd rather he be a bastard than a fool.
LOL! You maybe, but hopefully not my favorite character. (Who you are
writing at present.) And seriously, I don't think that there is such a choice.
It would not have made Magneto a "fool" to have been shown to feel lasting
regret, and knock Wanda and Pietro unconscious using his powers, for example,
instead of hitting them.
The relationship of Magneto and Pietro has so much potential.There is so
much dramatic, explosive interaction possible. Now it seems things are back
where they were after FATAL ATTRACTIONS. The fact that Pietro wanted to try and
forge some kind of bond with Magneto; even if to keep him out of trouble; after
what went down in XM #25, indicates Pietro's need for some emotional attachment
other than pure hatred and contempt.
>And I don't think he is being a bastard in this Limited Series, just very
>confident and calculating about what he is doing and why.
He's a mass murderer; he's being a bastard, showing no doubts, no guilt,
no second thoughts. This is not Magneto. This isn't even Magneto as you wrote
him in the pervious issue of DARK SEDUCTION.
You've stated you don't see Magneto as a "tragic potentially heroic
villain" -- but Magneto, as he was portrayed for years, is just that. Why show
us that he could be a hero and lead the X-Men when Xavier was accidentally
killed by Legion, starting the Age of Apocalpyse, if you didn't think he was
"tragic and potentially heroic"? This is a character who is three-dimensional,
and thus is capable of reflection, self-examination, insight. This is the
difference between a one-dimensional rat-bastard villain, and villains like
Magneto -- who have become psychologically complex and are struggling all the
time with the inclination to do good, and the inclination to do evil. The 3-D
tragic and potentially heroic villain thinks about what he has to do, and what
he has done. He (or she!) might feel guilt or shame or anger; but there is an
interplay of light and dark.
Whew, I'm running on again. I don't suppose I'm going to convince you;
except that the funny thing is, you've already written Magneto just the way I
describe above. In any case, I very much appreciate your taking the time to
post here, Fabian, and discuss this with us, especially those of us who are not
in agreement with your POV.
Lacy
Magnuskn
>Thank god there's no Exodus, at least.
>
Why ? Since the last UXM Annual , I have taken an inordinately liking to Exy .
:)
Magnus
ht...@webtv.net
voice that is assumptive in nature? ;-)
Sorry to throw you off there, Htuom, but my narrative voice in Magneto
takes on the role of assumptive participant -- meaning, when it's not
blathering about explaining status quo or powers or names, it's
attempting to create tension through its assumption of character motives
moreso than having any clear awareness of
the characters true motivations.
Why do it this way? Because I'd rather let the narrative make you think
about what the characters are or aren't thinking while their actions
eventually speak for themselves.
It's also a cliffhanger, so you always ratchet up the tension level a
bit anyway to try and create that 30 day sizzle.
Is it a cheat? In way, I guess it's a bit of one, but the narrative
voices I have evolved over my career (in view in DS, Gambit or
Thunderbolts currently) tend to be more of a questioning nature one than
an answering one.
I'd rather use them to try and make the readers consider the various
possibilities until such time as the character answers the questions
posed by their actions.
Sorry if you don't like it. But manipulating you and pissing you off is
part of the fun. ;-) >>
Well that answers that . If you say the narrator is assumptive, I guess
he is. It doesn't piss me off but I'm not happy about because I like to
know what the characters are really thinking. If the real answer is
going to depend on actions alone than I guess we won't have a definitive
answer for awhile. Like I wrote in another post, considering that he
hasn't even consolidated Genosha yet, Magneto is hardly in a position to
make a bid for world domination. The mere fact that he hasn't yet is no
real indicator that he won't eventually. I do appreciate your telling
me, I won't take the words you put in narrative text so literally in
the future. I still don't like the way Mags was portarayed in the
series, especially issue 3. I see him as completly ruthless ,willing to
use or endanger anyone if it furthers his cause but than you already
know that, don't you?
I echo Lacy's feelings in thanking you for posting your thoughts on
this topic. Our feelings on the book are very negative and you could
have avoided the debate. I havn't agreed with all your points but
respect that you've responded, you're certainly under no obligation to
do so. To be objective, for the most part the series has recieved rave
reviews, so I guess you'll survive a couple people being displeased with
it.
Brian Fried
cost him the chance of reconsiliation with his children, he knows that
whatever action he performs against them in order to reach the machine
will anger them and therefore cost him that chance. He could have taken
them out in any way possible, but the simple banging of two heads together
was far more effective than, say, slowing their blood streams -- the
latter action, of course, taking less effect time over Quicksilver than
being bonked on the head, IIRC.
Magneto NEEDS that boost of power. One thing DARK SEDUCTION #3 makes clear
is that Magneto has known about this secret cave of the Dark Beast's/
Sugarman's for quite some time, and it was all planned out with Alda
Huxley as to how he might get access to it. With his power restored, he no
longer needs Polaris as a lifeline to his powers. With his power restored,
she can finally eliminate Cortez from the inner circle, since Huxley (and
the others) clearly despise him.
Magneto needed a distraction, plain and simple. And since he was quite
aware that tying up JUST the Avengers would still leave some of his
Acolytes to find him, he chose to distract them all by destroying the
cliff side. Think carefully about what might have happened if Cargill
stumbled onto the technology; she is far more power hungry and vengeful
than Magneto in truth. Think about Voght and Pietro: would they have seen
Magneto using it on himself, or it becoming a crutch tool for building a
super army?
Amelia and Pietro both want Magneto to be kept away from the machine
because they fear what could be built out of the mutates: an army. They
don't consider, it looks like, the possibility that Magneto wants it for
himself and even if they do, it's quite possible they consider Magneto to
be powerful ENOUGH... they don't want an overly powered Magneto.
There are legitimate reasons for doing what he did in his mind. It's not
sociopathy or psychopathy, it's a clear need which dictates it. He knows
he may lose one or a handful of lives in the process -- those that the
Avengers and his fellow Genoshans can't save -- but it's a price he's
willing to pay to have a leader self-reliant. It's a price he's willing to
pay to avoid any charge of weakness. The whole point behind the formation
of the cabinet in Genosha was (a) keep your enemies closer, and (b) avoid
letting the truth about your weakness getting out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Fried bfr...@chat.carleton.ca Carleton U., Ottawa, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"What do you say? Will the human race be run in a day?
Or will someone save this planet we're playing on?"
Paul McCartney, 'Pipes Of Peace', 1983
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cypher
news:8innv9$2lm$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca...
> I think you're missing a small point, Lacy. When Magneto says this will
> cost him the chance of reconsiliation with his children, he knows that
> whatever action he performs against them in order to reach the machine
> will anger them and therefore cost him that chance. He could have taken
> them out in any way possible, but the simple banging of two heads together
> was far more effective than, say, slowing their blood streams -- the
> latter action, of course, taking less effect time over Quicksilver than
> being bonked on the head, IIRC.
>
How is bumping Wanda and Pietro's heads together going to cost
him a chance at reconciliation? If theatening to kill the poor boy in
Fatal Attractions hasn't turned Pietro away, I doubt anything will.
--Cypher
Lacy3399
>Well that answers that . If you say the narrator is assumptive, I guess
>he is. It doesn't piss me off but I'm not happy about because I like to
>know what the characters are really thinking. If the real answer is
>going to depend on actions alone than I guess we won't have a definitive
>answer for awhile. Like I wrote in another post, considering that he
>hasn't even consolidated Genosha yet, Magneto is hardly in a position to
>make a bid for world domination. The mere fact that he hasn't yet is no
>real indicator that he won't eventually. I do appreciate your telling
>me, I won't take the words you put in narrative text so literally in
>the future.
At least, not the words written by Fabian Nicieza, as he intends them.
However, what the editor and editor in chief want Magneto's true motives to be,
might be different.
This was the opening narration of MAGNETO REX #1:
"To this desolate, forsaken country has come a man whose dark dream is on the
cusp of becoming reality ... a vision in which Homo sapiens superior assumes
its proper place on the evolutionary ladder ... with HIMSELF, Magneto, poised
on the throne as the unchallenged ruler of ALL. He does not see a ravaged
country locked in the clutches of war as he surveys the formerly majestic
skyline of the city below. He sees the makings of an empire. Hammer Bay will be
his Rome, the jewel of his dominion."
I mean, forgive me for continuing to complain, but what else is the reader
supposed to think, after reading that?
And as you pointed out, there were several times either in thought or
word, that Magneto indicated he continues to believe in mutant supremacy, with
himself as ruler of mutants, i.e., the world.
Mr. Nicieza's assurances, however, were a great relief. And the technique
of letting the reader view Magneto through the eyes (and prejudices) of others
is valid, if it's not overdone (meaning, we never get to see Magneto's thoughts
for ourselve). So, if DARK SEDUCTION is setting up the status quo for Magneto,
and Mr. N. assures us that (as far as he's concerned) Magneto is trying to
create a mutant safe-haven and not rule the world, then that settles some of my
doubts about this series.
Lacy
Jerry Jones
>
> I think you're missing a small point, Lacy. When Magneto says this will
> cost him the chance of reconsiliation with his children, he knows that
> whatever action he performs against them in order to reach the machine
> will anger them and therefore cost him that chance. He could have taken
> them out in any way possible, but the simple banging of two heads together
> was far more effective than, say, slowing their blood streams -- the
> latter action, of course, taking less effect time over Quicksilver than
> being bonked on the head, IIRC.
>
I believe Lacy has more a problem with Magneto's attitude afterwards,
where
he considers the loss of any reconsiliation with his children as an
acceptable
loss. Which goes against everything we have seen from him in the past.
> Magneto NEEDS that boost of power. One thing DARK SEDUCTION #3 makes clear
> is that Magneto has known about this secret cave of the Dark Beast's/
> Sugarman's for quite some time, and it was all planned out with Alda
> Huxley as to how he might get access to it. With his power restored, he no
> longer needs Polaris as a lifeline to his powers. With his power restored,
> she can finally eliminate Cortez from the inner circle, since Huxley (and
> the others) clearly despise him.
>
Once Polaris came into the picture, there has been absolutely no reason
to
Cortez around, hopefully Cortez will be this years "Sacrificial Lamb".
> Magneto needed a distraction, plain and simple. And since he was quite
> aware that tying up JUST the Avengers would still leave some of his
> Acolytes to find him, he chose to distract them all by destroying the
> cliff side. Think carefully about what might have happened if Cargill
> stumbled onto the technology; she is far more power hungry and vengeful
> than Magneto in truth. Think about Voght and Pietro: would they have seen
> Magneto using it on himself, or it becoming a crutch tool for building a
> super army?
>
Toppling a city full of people goes beyond being simple distraction.
As for the technology itself, I'm kind of dissapointed as to what it
actually
turned to be, since Magneto already has access to advanced genetic
technology.
> Amelia and Pietro both want Magneto to be kept away from the machine
> because they fear what could be built out of the mutates: an army. They
> don't consider, it looks like, the possibility that Magneto wants it for
> himself and even if they do, it's quite possible they consider Magneto to
> be powerful ENOUGH... they don't want an overly powered Magneto.
>
> There are legitimate reasons for doing what he did in his mind. It's not
> sociopathy or psychopathy, it's a clear need which dictates it. He knows
> he may lose one or a handful of lives in the process -- those that the
> Avengers and his fellow Genoshans can't save -- but it's a price he's
> willing to pay to have a leader self-reliant. It's a price he's willing to
> pay to avoid any charge of weakness. The whole point behind the formation
> of the cabinet in Genosha was (a) keep your enemies closer, and (b) avoid
> letting the truth about your weakness getting out.
>
Whether he's a ranting and raving or calm and calculating, if the
results are
the same, then he can still be considered a madman, in fact I consider
the latter
to be more disturbing. There are a ton of villains that justify their
actions
through some warped ideology, but once their actions become to extreme,
it's
pretty much the end of them, as far as being a sympathetic character.
Jerry Jones
Lacy3399
(And I always appreciate reading anything Brian Fried has to say):
(possible spoilers ahead)
>I think you're missing a small point, Lacy. When Magneto says this will
>cost him the chance of reconsiliation with his children, he knows that
>whatever action he performs against them in order to reach the machine
>will anger them and therefore cost him that chance. He could have taken
>them out in any way possible, but the simple banging of two heads together
>was far more effective than, say, slowing their blood streams -- the
>latter action, of course, taking less effect time over Quicksilver than
>being bonked on the head, IIRC.
Yes, it's true -- Pietro and Wanda would be dead-set against Magneto
having access to the genetic tech, no matter what the reason, due to their
(hard-earned) opinion of Magneto No matter what Magneto did to get them out of
his way, it would anger them.
And, as Fabian Nicieza said, there's little Magneto could ever do or say
that would get Wanda to view him as her father. (As to Pietro, more on that in
a moment.)
Therefore it's Magneto who perceives the situation as: if I do this, they
will hate me even more. (Yes, he might be a fool to continue to seek a
relationship with his children, but that's what makes him a great character.)
Therefore all the more reason why that low-brow cruel act of hitting them
against each other, makes no sense.
Even if you go by the Genosha-story continuity (and forget the years and
years of references) in MAGNETO REX #1, Magneto says in the first few pages to
two enemies: "It takes but a thought for me to slow the flow of oxygen to your
brains ..." And, he's been able to activate the sleep-centers of the brain,
before, too.
In other words, the act didn't match the sentiment. And it was hardly
"wistful," dismissing the lost possible "reconciliation" as "an acceptable
loss." In the past, even in MAGNETO REX, (when he was talking to Rogue) Magneto
has lamented the choices he feels he must make.
>Magneto NEEDS that boost of power. One thing DARK SEDUCTION #3 makes clear
>is that Magneto has known about this secret cave of the Dark Beast's/
>Sugarman's for quite some time, and it was all planned out with Alda
>Huxley as to how he might get access to it. With his power restored, he no
>longer needs Polaris as a lifeline to his powers. With his power restored,
>she can finally eliminate Cortez from the inner circle, since Huxley (and
>the others) clearly despise him.
True. (Poor Cortez, the slimy weasel, everyone despises him. I'm waiting
to see how Magneto deals with him in DS #4.)
I'm not sure Huxley completely planned out HOW Magneto would get access to
the caves. I think she advised Magneto not to go charging in and destroy the
rebels and seize the Fenyick caves, rather wait and let the rebellion ferment.
Let the interested parties coalesce. Let the snakes in the mud hatch out. I
believe it's implied that Magneto has been aware of the various factions, and
who is loyal to him and who is not. (Apparently no one is.)
>Magneto needed a distraction, plain and simple. And since he was quite
>aware that tying up JUST the Avengers would still leave some of his
>Acolytes to find him, he chose to distract them all by destroying the
>cliff side.
He didn't just destory the cliffside. He destroyed the city, where
civilians lived. Where middle-class families lived. He tore the cars and
buildings and streets apart, and into the air. It was like the blast of an
atomic bomb, without the fallout. And he didn't have to do it that way. The
writer didn't have to make him do it that way.
>Think carefully about what might have happened if Cargill
>stumbled onto the technology; she is far more power hungry and vengeful
>than Magneto in truth. Think about Voght and Pietro: would they have seen
>Magneto using it on himself, or it becoming a crutch tool for building a
>super army?
Oh, I completely agree. And this is made plain in the books. Each faction
wants power, wants the power that this technology can give them, for different
reasons. And Pietro would of course, think the worst. Amelia -- I'm not sure
why she suddenly thinks Magneto cannot be trusted. She was his most trusted
advisor, and the one he turned to during the time Exodus attacked Pietro and
the Knights of Wundagore in the QUICKSILVER series. I'm not sure we're seeing
Amelia's genuine feelings in all this -- she could be acting again, on
Magneto's orders. Or, she could have joined the long list of those who think
the worst of Magneto.
>Amelia and Pietro both want Magneto to be kept away from the machine
>because they fear what could be built out of the mutates: an army. They
>don't consider, it looks like, the possibility that Magneto wants it for
>himself and even if they do, it's quite possible they consider Magneto to
>be powerful ENOUGH... they don't want an overly powered Magneto.
Yes, that's true. I don't question the motives of the supporting players
in this story. That's one of the best things about DARK SEDUCTION, the poltics
and maneuvering of all involved.
And I think the machinery can do worse than create an army of mutates
(something Magneto has tried to do in the past, at least twice); I think this
machinery can enhance the power of people who are already mutants and make them
even more powerful.
And unless Magneto is being written as a total rat-bastard, or unless
he's really psychotic and has lost all touch with reality, why in the world
would he want to enhance the powers of any other mutant, and expect an entire
army of these to obey him? As you say, it's obvious to the readers (hopefully
also to the X-editors) that Magneto would have to be incredibly insane or
stupid to actually do what Pietro, Wanda, or Amelia fear he will do. So yes, he
needs to restore his OWN powers, and perhaps augment them. But...
>There are legitimate reasons for doing what he did in his mind. It's not
>sociopathy or psychopathy, it's a clear need which dictates it.
Magneto knows what will happen to his body and mind if he has too much
power. He experienced it once, during XM #1 - #3. If he really wants more than
to get his powers back, he *really* is psychotic.
But I agree he's not a sociopath. I disagree about his psychopathology.
It's been attested to more than once, in the books. By Moira, who is a doctor
specializing in mutants, and by Xavier who is a psychiatrist, to name two.
Magnus has more than one mental disorder.
The destructon of Carrion Cove, the way it was handled -- Magneto did not
plan it this way, he exploded and destroyed out of a terror of being denied
that technology. (Maybe future writers will show his guilt and feelings of
shame over this act.)
>He knows
>he may lose one or a handful of lives in the process -- those that the
>Avengers and his fellow Genoshans can't save -- but it's a price he's
>willing to pay to have a leader self-reliant. It's a price he's willing to
>pay to avoid any charge of weakness.
It was more than a handful of lives; and Magneto would not kill
innocents, as he's been portrayed in the past. Including innocent mutants and
mutates. It wasn't a calculated act. It was an act of angry desperation. I'd
like to see the reasons for his desperation be more than just his fear of
powerlessness, (which is considerable, given his boyhood experiences), and his
hatred of being dependent on others. I agree that he needs to rule Genosha as
the "Master of Magnetism," or no one will respect him or take him seriously
(which we saw during the time the High Evolutionary's device took away all
mutant powers -- the magistrates of Genosha immediately begin a violent
counter-attack on Magneto and his allies.)
In MAGNETO REX #1, he thinks to himself: "My mutant powers are in a
critical state of decay ... perhaps diminshed forever. I have no real choice.
No one can be allowed to know my true condition, for it would allow my enemies
the opportunity they so desperately seek..." And then there's UNLIMITED #24 --
and the pain he experienced in the beginning of MAGNETO REX #1 when he tried to
use his powers ("What...? My head ... the pain .... my entire body ... screams
in anguish ...") As I posted before, could he have the Legacy Virus?
>The whole point behind the formation
>of the cabinet in Genosha was (a) keep your enemies closer, and (b) avoid
>letting the truth about your weakness getting out.
Yes. And don't forget (c) make things look good for the outside world, so
they'll let you do what you need to do to stabilize the country, and most
especially (d) reestablish a relationship with your son.
The last was one of the sub-plots of MAGNETO REX! Amelia was sent by
Magneto to sort of "trick" Pietro into joining him. And Pietro let himself be
manipulated into doing it; because, as it's very strongly implied, he wanted
to. Pietro says in MAGNETO REX #3, "I have wandered this land and searched deep
into my soul, and have at last come to understand my true destiny in the lunacy
that is our relationship. We both acknowledge that I will never follow your
path toward dominance over the human race .. our views of the future of
mutantkind are radically at odds in that regard and always shall be. What I do
believe though ... and I'm sure it's one point we can both agree on ... is that
mutants need not suffer just for who they are. We differ in that I feel the
same consideration should hold true for mankind as well..."
Pietro is saying, that it's Magneto's philosophy, more than his deeds,
that separates them. Magneto demands that Pietro be his "heir" in spirit as
well as flesh, and Pietro rejects the role.
BTW, the Legacy Victims concentration camps -- in the Epilogue, in
UNLIMITED #24, if I recall, Pietro was given permission to clean these camps
up. Which is probably why we haven't seen them in DARK SEDUCTION.
Lacy
Consul de Designers
> That the writer is purposefully cheating you by creating a narrative voice that
> is assumptive in nature? ;-)
> Sorry to throw you off there, Htuom, but my narrative voice in Magneto takes on the role
> of assumptive participant -- meaning, when it's not blathering about explaining status
> quo or powers or names, it's attempting to create tension through its assumption of
> character motives moreso than having any clear awareness of the characters true
> motivations.
This is what I got. You've, IMO, always tried to use the whole comic mentality
to immerse us into a story, so the narration is just that, a narration of what
you think we should be thinking about. It's not just the actions or thought
bubbles, it's a heads up to us that personal reasons are sometimes hidden and
not to take it face value. I like, it widens the scope of participation, like
you're asking us to think again. They're not thought bubbles, htuom, they are
supposedly the objective outside participant impression.
The political part is coming across sort of, not as strong as say, the BP
politicalness, which is top-notch, but this is good too. :D
--
Jameson Stalanthas Yu.
Happy Fathers day folks. I don't have any of my own kids yet, but I have done a
lot of the hard work for them anyways. I will give them a good name, one w/o
dalliances in the past, inexcusable crimes, or stories I would not want to tell
them. I will give them someone who they can be proud of, I hope.
Happy Fathers Day, It's true. It's true.
Lacy3399
>How is bumping Wanda and Pietro's heads together going to cost
>him a chance at reconciliation? If theatening to kill the poor boy in
>Fatal Attractions hasn't turned Pietro away, I doubt anything will.
Well, actually, that's a good question. It's Magneto who thinks so. As
Brian Fried pointed out, from the POV of Wanda and Pietro, after all they've
been through and because of their biases about Magneto (which make perfect
sense from their perspective), there won't be a "reconciliation" -- no group
hug here.
Unless, according to Pietro in MAGNETO REX #3, Magnus makes some
heavy-duty major changes in beliefs, attitude, behavior, and repents past
behavior. If he does, then maybe, maybe, Pietro might find some sanity in the
"lunacy" that is their relationship.
Which doesn't completely nullify Pietro's need, in my opinion, for his
father. That's their tragedy -- Magneto won't change, Magneto's philosophy and
activities are abhorrent to Pietro, so there can't be a reconciliation, rather
than there *won't* be a reconciliation.
Lacy
Cypher
news:20000620165112...@ng-ff1.aol.com...
But, like you said, Pietro appears to need his father. The
way I see it, Pietro is going to eventually realize that Mags
is never going to change and have to accept him as he is.
Such is life.
--Cypher, speaking from personal experience
FabNic
>and Mr. N. assures us that (as far as he's concerned) Magneto is trying to
>create a mutant safe-haven and not rule the world, then that settles some of
>my
>doubts about this series.
>
>Lacy
>
>
Series itself (would be kinda tough to do in one issue at this point! ;-)
I can not speak to the future plans for the core titles or any other limited
series in regards to the character.
--fabian
Aleph Press
In theory there is no reason why Wanda and Pietro would want to connect
with this man-- he was their abusive mentor when they were teenagers, and
they *had* a father, Django Maximoff. Why would they need to connectg
with Magneto as a father?
Well, I don't know, but all of their actions show that they do, whether
they want to or not. My SO was raised by a foster father, after being
estranged from an abusive natural father at the age of 7. He refers to
his foster father as "my dad" and his natural father by name. The very
fact that Wanda and Pietro constantly acknwoeldge Magneto as their
father, angst over him being their father, and actually on occasion
*call* him father indicates to me that for whatgever reason, they *do*
want a connection with him, it's just that his ideology and the way he
abused them as teens will always stand between them.
My theory is that they were always aware that they were outsiders.
Pietro, with Magneto's coloring, wouldn't have fit in with a group of
gypsies at all (ironically, all evidence indicates that he *is* at least
half gypsy on his mother's side, but he wouldn't have looked it), and
both of them were probably too smart for their foster people. The fact
that they cheerfully ignore most of the rules of Romany society makes me
think that they *always* longed to find natural parents, that they
*always* believed that there was somewhere else they belonged and someone
else they belonged to. It must have been horrifyingly ironic to find that
that someone-- who in fact they do resemble greatly in terms of power and
personality-- is the man who mentored and abused them when they were teens.
Consul de Designers
> He didn't just destory the cliffside. He destroyed the city, where
> civilians lived.
Maybe that part of the city was abandoned. So much battle going on there, and so
much damage left just a minimal amount of lives there, mostly just the soldiers,
rebels, Acolytes, and Avengers. Seemed pretty deserted in the earlier issues.
--
Jameson Stalanthas Yu.
How much does one filled longbox, w/ bags and boards weigh? I have no scale, and
I have about 8 boxes to ship across country.
Consul de Designers
> The very fact that Wanda and Pietro constantly acknwoeldge Magneto as their father,
> angst over him being their father, and actually on occasion *call* him father indicates
> to me that for whatgever reason, they *do* want a connection with him, it's just that
> his ideology and the way he abused them as teens will always stand between them.
Not counting all the stories I've read and known personally of stupid adopted
kids who hurt the family who raised them, believing that blood was more
important than love, I think that Wanda and Pietro have always seemed to go the
hard way for personal relationships. Wanda and Vision: a machine; Wanda and
Simon: a hardpressed hope in a dead guy; Pietro and Crystal: dependency for
everyone!! and the only thing that seemed to keep the relationship going was the
'it's what married people do' mentality; Pietro and the Knights of
Wundagore:dependancy for everyone again!
Aardy R. DeVarque
>FabNic wrote:
>>
>> >
>> Thanks for the kind words. A pretty strong VERBAL confrontation between Wanda
>> and Mags is slated for #4. Pietro and Mags as well.
>>
>
>Hopefully, during the verbal confrontation Magneto actually has
>something useful
>to say, which hasn't been the case recently. I wish the series would
>have
>focused more on the relationships between Magneto and his children,
>I think it would have made a much better story. The secret
>of Carrion Cove doesn't seem all that important to someone like Magneto
>who
>already has similar technology, definitely not worth throwing his
>relationship
>with his children away.
Given what the *origin* of secret of Carrion Cove probably is, it *is* worth
it to Magneto to do whatever it takes to get his hands on it.
Possible spoilers...
#
#
#
#
Who do we know who:
a) Lived in a cave in Genosha...
b) Helped the Genoshan Genengineer jump-start the mutate program...
c) Has knowledge about mutant-related technology far beyond current MU
standards...
The answer, of course, is Sugar Man, with his AoA technology & extensive
knowledge of mutation. He may not be there anymore (I seem to remember him
fleeing Genosha a while back), but his technology apparently still is...
Magneto with everyday mutate technology, so what; his Savage Land stories
showed him with "advanced" but otherwise normal technology. Magneto with
the *original* AoA technology of which only a small bit was released and
became Genosha's advanced mutate technology? A scary thing indeed.
--
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
Obsessive Completist's Supplemental X-list:
http://www.enteract.com/~aardy/comics/xindex.html
Comic Book Awards Almanac:
http://www.enteract.com/~aardy/comics/awards/index.html
Jerry Jones
Magneto's original technology was far from "normal", it was technology
that had belonged to Maelstrom, the best genetist around. I don't
believe that original AoA technology is that more advanced,if at all.
And the aspect that most scares people who wish to keep it out of his
hands,
the idea that he would created a super mutate army, kinda falls flat
since
the last time he went down this path he was reduced to an infant.
Jerry Jones
Cypher
Consul de Designers <jame...@usc.edu> wrote in message
news:395061B2...@usc.edu...
> Aleph Press wrote:
> > The very fact that Wanda and Pietro constantly acknwoeldge Magneto as
their father,
> > angst over him being their father, and actually on occasion *call* him
father indicates
> > to me that for whatgever reason, they *do* want a connection with him,
it's just that
> > his ideology and the way he abused them as teens will always stand
between them.
>
> Not counting all the stories I've read and known personally of stupid
adopted
> kids who hurt the family who raised them, believing that blood was more
> important than love, I think that Wanda and Pietro have always seemed to
go the
> hard way for personal relationships. Wanda and Vision: a machine; Wanda
and
> Simon: a hardpressed hope in a dead guy; Pietro and Crystal: dependency
for
> everyone!! and the only thing that seemed to keep the relationship going
was the
> 'it's what married people do' mentality; Pietro and the Knights of
> Wundagore:dependancy for everyone again!
That's overly harsh! "Stupid" is definitely the wrong word. "Confused"
is more like it.
--Cypher
Brian Fried
actually. If you recall all of the inferences around the time of those
stories, it was the Dark Beast's process (rekindled by the White Queen)
handed over to the Sugar Man while the Dark Beast had other tests to do.
I'm also guessing by the way Marrow speaks in X-MEN PRIME that perhaps the
Dark Beast was on Genosha during the crisis or prior to it in "X-Tinction
Agenda."
Brian Fried
the -1s, retellings and flashbacks that have occurred through the years.
Pietro and Wanda are living by themselves as teens when Xavier and Magneto
first approach them, indicating that the Maximoffs are deceased by this time.
So, after a couple of years -- say 5 Marvel Time -- they learn their real
father is alive and well... well, that would offer them a hope, especially
when it was the community of their foster parents which rejected them (as
teens) and the community of their real father (the spandex set) which
accepted them without question.
With Pietro, there's more of a desire to reconcilliation than in his
sister because Wanda really has never felt the disconnection which
affiliates father and son. Honestly, I'm wondering if there's an Avengers
issue out there (since I'm not up on Avengers history fully yet) where
Pietro blankly tells Wanda that she's adopted the Avengers as family at
the cost of their relationship and where she retorts his own hotheadedness
has made him reject that family.
When you look at it much more closely, Pietro has always looked for
connection. It was his problem in X-Factor somewhat. He mentioned it to
Beast in not so many words after Onslaught. He had that problem with the
Knights of Wundagore and the Acolytes. He wishes to know where he fits in,
and one person who he does know he always connects to is his father, who
also has been in and out. Wanda is pure Avenger, head to toe. Her family
is now Tony, Jan, Hank and Steve (amongst others) and so she doesn't need
to connect with her father as much because his values go against theirs.
Brian Fried
> Therefore it's Magneto who perceives the situation as: if I do this, they
> will hate me even more. (Yes, he might be a fool to continue to seek a
> relationship with his children, but that's what makes him a great character.)
> Therefore all the more reason why that low-brow cruel act of hitting them
> against each other, makes no sense.
Not quite. Consider it from Magneto's perspective for a moment. He lost
his only child to bigotry and hatred. Years later, he discovers he has two
children he didn't know about. All of a sudden, he has a chance to make up
for lost love. Unfortunately, his own actions have cost him somewhat. He
is trying to show that he can be good and work in their system; they often
reject it. He knows that any action he takes against them will anger them
and hurt the chances of reconsiliation they have. If they view this
machine as a danger, then not knowing Magneto's weakness fully, they will
see his use of the machine as a power grab and think he is extending his
"evil" power -- epecially Wanda. Thus in doing so, he is damaging his
chance of reconciliation BUT he has to take it, he *has* to use the
machine, because otherwise he will be dead. Plain and simple, he knows
that the past few months have allowed his enemies to entrench. Plus,
without the UN's lifting of sanctions, things are going to keep worsening
in Genosha. He has to be ready for that too.
Wanda is an Avenger. As I wrote in another post in this thread, her vision
is clouded by the values of her third family. Rejected from that family,
Pietro looks back to his father and sees the need to turn Magneto towards
some sort of reconsilliation himself.
> Even if you go by the Genosha-story continuity (and forget the years and
> years of references) in MAGNETO REX #1, Magneto says in the first few pages to
> two enemies: "It takes but a thought for me to slow the flow of oxygen to your
> brains ..." And, he's been able to activate the sleep-centers of the brain,
> before, too.
> In other words, the act didn't match the sentiment. And it was hardly
> "wistful," dismissing the lost possible "reconciliation" as "an acceptable
> loss." In the past, even in MAGNETO REX, (when he was talking to Rogue) Magneto
> has lamented the choices he feels he must make.
We don't know the extent to which Magneto has lost his powers. He may not
be able to slow the blood stream at long distances without Polaris' help.
He uses Polaris to destroy what's left of Carrion Cove.
Don't forget that for Magneto, the threat is power more than the power itself.
He rules Genosha through that fear, but Fabian -- through his scenes with
Wanda on tour -- demonstrates that Magneto hasn't been using his powers
towards anything in the country. Heck, a full powered Magneto could form a
city if he wanted to; this one can't.
Turning back to Rogue, Pietro and Wanda, I think Magneto has never had the
strength of supported leadership the way Xavier has and that's what hurts
him most. Consider this: Xavier is wounded most through his heart, but he
guards his emotions very carefully and it cost him through Onslaught
(something which got screwed up in "The Hunt for Xavier" etc. onwards).
In contrast, Magneto sees intimacy as a sharing of threat. He has been
surrounded by backstabbers throughout his life, from Strucker (the guy
came back to haunt him once more) to Mastermind (notice how Magneto kept
the Brotherhood in line with fear except Pietro and Wanda) to the Acolytes.
Only in the X-Men did he come close with Storm... but immediately afterwards
he joins the Hellfire Club, which negates that. Heck, fear is what was
seen by the New Mutants.
For Magneto, a position in power -- a REAL position such as this -- means
that if he's close to Rogue, she will probably oppose him when he does
something she doesn't approve of. He can't reconsile with his former
students, much as he DOES care for them (that part of his psyche has been
maintained) because they follow Cable's rules now. As for Wanda and Pietro,
they were his most desired connections, but if they're too close they're
targets and they too follow different rules.
He hasn't the time at that moment to use it. And Wanda, above all else,
would never condone her father using the machine to restore his own powers
in order to keep power; she has too much faith in "democracy" to let him
rule like this and Magneto knows Wanda wants to turn her brother against him.
> True. (Poor Cortez, the slimy weasel, everyone despises him. I'm waiting
> to see how Magneto deals with him in DS #4.)
> I'm not sure Huxley completely planned out HOW Magneto would get access to
> the caves. I think she advised Magneto not to go charging in and destroy the
> rebels and seize the Fenyick caves, rather wait and let the rebellion ferment.
> Let the interested parties coalesce. Let the snakes in the mud hatch out. I
> believe it's implied that Magneto has been aware of the various factions, and
> who is loyal to him and who is not. (Apparently no one is.)
I think Huxley wanted Cortez out of the picture. Huxley has her own plans
for Genosha (see MAGNETO REX, etc.) and maybe she thinks that if she is
Magneto's only trusted soul, she can misguide him into being the pawn
which gives her the real power.
As for planning it out... I think you're right in that aspect. Nevertheless,
I think Huxley did recognize that if the technology were that important,
there would be three ways of getting it:
(a) through negotiations, which didn't work -- Carrion Cove stays
stubborn.
(b) lifting the embargo, thus allowing the Cove people to flee while
they keep the technology as theirs -- but that was stopped by
the UN.
(c) war.
And war won out. The Cove brought in outside help, which also suggests to
me that it was an excuse to find out who's helping support anti-Magneto
forces in Genosha (Roxxon) and maybe level charges against them.
> He didn't just destory the cliffside. He destroyed the city, where
> civilians lived. Where middle-class families lived. He tore the cars and
> buildings and streets apart, and into the air. It was like the blast of an
> atomic bomb, without the fallout. And he didn't have to do it that way. The
> writer didn't have to make him do it that way.
Magneto was desparate. Also, as another person noted, the town was
basically deserted by that point. Plus, the battle had been going on for
quite a while by the time Magneto showed up (since the Cove defenders had
just been stopped when the Avengers appeared) so Magneto knew there were
very few innocents in the immediate area.
Plus, overall, I think Magneto's thinking "Good of the many outweighs the
needs of the few" here. If the action costs him a handful of lives but
results in him being able to win much more for Genosha, then his greater
goal has to win out because it helps all of mutantkind in Genosha.
And, of course, that makes him a villain because the heroes -- and the
democratic world -- don't see it that way. To use another allusion, the
Soviets used prisons to break dissidents and the West objected. Yet it
modernized Russia, which was the goal that Stalin and his cabinet was
working for. It was right in some eyes and wrong in others. For Magneto,
he's on the side which thinks it's right.
> Oh, I completely agree. And this is made plain in the books. Each faction
> wants power, wants the power that this technology can give them, for different
> reasons. And Pietro would of course, think the worst. Amelia -- I'm not sure
> why she suddenly thinks Magneto cannot be trusted. She was his most trusted
> advisor, and the one he turned to during the time Exodus attacked Pietro and
> the Knights of Wundagore in the QUICKSILVER series. I'm not sure we're seeing
> Amelia's genuine feelings in all this -- she could be acting again, on
> Magneto's orders. Or, she could have joined the long list of those who think
> the worst of Magneto.
I think Amelia has always been shown as someone who wants better for
herself and others, but has no taste for blood or power posturing. To me,
I think she fears an all powerful Magneto because that Magneto will be out
to rule the world, not prove the world like this one is. As for the Amelia-
Pietro-Magneto triangle, note that of all the Acolytes only two were ever
level headed... and one of them is now an X-Man once more. Pietro knows
this, and Magneto has used Amelia as an advisor because he knows that she
can think things out rather than be simply obedient (which Pietro sees as
well, hence MAGNETO REX's bigger picture). But that doesn't stop Amelia
from making her own mind as well... at one point, she was siding with
Xavier after Magneto, if you recall, if only for part of an issue.
> Yes, that's true. I don't question the motives of the supporting players
> in this story. That's one of the best things about DARK SEDUCTION, the poltics
> and maneuvering of all involved.
> And I think the machinery can do worse than create an army of mutates
> (something Magneto has tried to do in the past, at least twice); I think this
> machinery can enhance the power of people who are already mutants and make them
> even more powerful.
> And unless Magneto is being written as a total rat-bastard, or unless
> he's really psychotic and has lost all touch with reality, why in the world
> would he want to enhance the powers of any other mutant, and expect an entire
> army of these to obey him? As you say, it's obvious to the readers (hopefully
> also to the X-editors) that Magneto would have to be incredibly insane or
> stupid to actually do what Pietro, Wanda, or Amelia fear he will do. So yes, he
> needs to restore his OWN powers, and perhaps augment them. But...
I think he also wants to make a much larger nation from Genosha. Not
immediately, though, since Genosha also has to have order and strength
internally first. But it's a long range goal, and I think this is what
the heroes see as the immediate problem.
> Magneto knows what will happen to his body and mind if he has too much
> power. He experienced it once, during XM #1 - #3. If he really wants more than
> to get his powers back, he *really* is psychotic.
> But I agree he's not a sociopath. I disagree about his psychopathology.
> It's been attested to more than once, in the books. By Moira, who is a doctor
> specializing in mutants, and by Xavier who is a psychiatrist, to name two.
> Magnus has more than one mental disorder.
> The destructon of Carrion Cove, the way it was handled -- Magneto did not
> plan it this way, he exploded and destroyed out of a terror of being denied
> that technology. (Maybe future writers will show his guilt and feelings of
> shame over this act.)
Magneto's shame is what continues to drive him, though. It's his anger ove
rbeing feared by his wife more than anything which makes him care about
human-mutant relations really. It's his guilt over his lost child that
makes him keep reaching out to Wanda and Pietro. I think this guilt will
make him want to try more peaceful solutions... if he hasn't done so
already in not using his power except against other powers like militias etc.
As for Moira and Xavier... Xavier's got more than his share of
psychological problems, and Moira's never really commented on it
until the very end of EXCALIBUR (like the response to the Xavier
Protocols) so I wouldn't count them as great psychologists. Certainly
Magneto has issues that should be dealt with through laying on the couch,
but they aren't as dangerous as "the heroes" make them out to be. He's not
a pure villain or an anti-hero; he's someone who wishes a different order
than the one regular society wants, as opposed to most traditional
villains which prefer chaos.
(Apocalypse is chaos, Sinister is a mixture of chaos and order).
> It was more than a handful of lives; and Magneto would not kill
> innocents, as he's been portrayed in the past. Including innocent mutants and
> mutates. It wasn't a calculated act. It was an act of angry desperation. I'd
> like to see the reasons for his desperation be more than just his fear of
> powerlessness, (which is considerable, given his boyhood experiences), and his
> hatred of being dependent on others. I agree that he needs to rule Genosha as
> the "Master of Magnetism," or no one will respect him or take him seriously
> (which we saw during the time the High Evolutionary's device took away all
> mutant powers -- the magistrates of Genosha immediately begin a violent
> counter-attack on Magneto and his allies.)
Magneto certainly has a lot of reasons to fear for his life if things ever
turn sour, and with Carrion Cove we still have a visible icon that things
are not as rosy as they might hope to be. Magneto has restored order and
prosperity to Genosha, but not freedom or real happiness.. YET.
> In MAGNETO REX #1, he thinks to himself: "My mutant powers are in a
> critical state of decay ... perhaps diminshed forever. I have no real choice.
> No one can be allowed to know my true condition, for it would allow my enemies
> the opportunity they so desperately seek..." And then there's UNLIMITED #24 --
> and the pain he experienced in the beginning of MAGNETO REX #1 when he tried to
> use his powers ("What...? My head ... the pain .... my entire body ... screams
> in anguish ...") As I posted before, could he have the Legacy Virus?
I don't think he has the Legacy Virus. If he did, his powers would also
spike, and they're not. I think that it's just been too much for him: he's
acting like Banshee did after screaming his vocal chords to shreds... his
body needs time to heal, but he can't. It's also to be noted he's been
fucked around with by Moira AND Astra over the last ten years, and he's
put his body through its greatest strain lately in order to get to this
position. All in all, his battery has run low and he's burnt out part of
his control mechanisms.
> Yes. And don't forget (c) make things look good for the outside world, so
> they'll let you do what you need to do to stabilize the country, and most
> especially (d) reestablish a relationship with your son.
> The last was one of the sub-plots of MAGNETO REX! Amelia was sent by
> Magneto to sort of "trick" Pietro into joining him. And Pietro let himself be
> manipulated into doing it; because, as it's very strongly implied, he wanted
> to. Pietro says in MAGNETO REX #3, "I have wandered this land and searched deep
> into my soul, and have at last come to understand my true destiny in the lunacy
> that is our relationship. We both acknowledge that I will never follow your
> path toward dominance over the human race .. our views of the future of
> mutantkind are radically at odds in that regard and always shall be. What I do
> believe though ... and I'm sure it's one point we can both agree on ... is that
> mutants need not suffer just for who they are. We differ in that I feel the
> same consideration should hold true for mankind as well..."
> Pietro is saying, that it's Magneto's philosophy, more than his deeds,
> that separates them. Magneto demands that Pietro be his "heir" in spirit as
> well as flesh, and Pietro rejects the role.
Pietro has never fit in anywhere. He doesn't like the Avengers, he doesn't
like X-Factor or the X-Men, but he can't run away from Magneto. In actual
fact, Pietro's powers are quite reflectant of his inability to stay in one
place too long, something Peter David began to bring up in X-FACTOR after
the session with Doc Samson.
Pietro doesn't agree with his father's philosophy at all. Nevertheless, he
knows his father IS trying to do something good in making Genosha open to
mutants where they can live without hated (something his sister never
realized, since it's only recently anti-mutant hatred has touched her in
recent years). He wants to curb that philosophy and work towards a mutal
goal that satisfies them both and, therefore, doesn't lead to fights with
the heroes. Magneto feels Pietro can be bent. That's a fairly accurate
vision of them, though.
> BTW, the Legacy Victims concentration camps -- in the Epilogue, in
> UNLIMITED #24, if I recall, Pietro was given permission to clean these camps
> up. Which is probably why we haven't seen them in DARK SEDUCTION.
You also probably haven't seen them because (a) Legacy may have been
solved by now [but not bloody well likely], (b) cleaning them up meant
putting the population back in to the general one, and/or (c) hiding them
from the UN as normal communities to make it look better and hopefully
lift sanctions better. It's also possible -- and maybe likely -- that in
Sinister's manipulations he accidentally wiped out a lot of Legacy around
the world... it's always possible, since Legacy is a specifically genetic-
targeting disease not random (see EXCALIBUR between, IIRC, 87-96 somewhere)
and his alterations could have separated any connection temporarily enough
to cause the virus to disperse.
Consul de Designers
> Magneto had some power as he entered the cave. The art shows us this. He used his power
> to move the bodies of Wanda and Pietro -- that means using Magnetism on the flesh and
> bone which is a lot harder than using it on the iron in the blood stream.
I don't know how he does the iron in blood trick, but it has to be immensely
easier to move two big heads than to find the iron in a bloodstream. Him doing
it so bluntly means that he didn't have the power and finesse to do it
delicately.
> That's my complaint -- Magneto should not be portrayed as another Stalin.
Agreed on the Stalin point. Though now I wonder, which is a better ruler, Doom
or Magneto? Doom is pretty egalitarian in his actions to others, he is brutal to
all races, creeds and sex who oppose. Mags has that compassion bit to him, he's
pretty fair to everyone, even to those he knows that don't like what he thinks.
He tolerates those that don't like his ideas, and only acts against those that
physically acted against him, like he did with Exodus and Cortez. I kinda
understand his desire for a homeland. I see a parallel to Israel, wanting a
homeland. And I see other minority groups always talking about needing a place
to call their own.
> That's why Magneto completely destroying Carrion Cove, and killing innocent civilians --
> some of whom might have been mutates or mutant-born -- is so jarring and seems nothing
> but a jab in the ribs to remind us of how Magneto is an eevil villain afterall.
I just reread the issue, but that page that has me still saying that he knew
that the Avengers were going to save folks. He had no doubt, so he knows that
there is no danger. What it does do is show that the Avengers will think him an
eeevil villain, not knowing his possibly good reason to go to Carrion Cove.
YOu know what else I like, was the little detail of Iron Man knowing chapter and
verse of what and who can interfere on Mags little sovereign nation. Nice nod to
the Stark Solutions. :D It's a little detail, but hey, I noticed it.
> Oh, geez, so you're saying, Magneto wants to conquer the world. Long range
> goal. Africa first, maybe? It's a neighboring continent. That's exactly what I
> do not want to see happen ever in the X-books.
I agree, I think Mags is a protectionist, he doesn't want to force other nations
to attack him. He's going to solidify his power in Genosha, restore his own
personal powers, and I think he is going to be happy with that. He had Avalon
for a long time until the astronauts came by chasing his neo-Acolytes.
> It was a very important theme of both MAGNETO REX, and the Epilogue in UNLIMITED #24.
> Magneto set up one of those camps to be especially harsh, just to manipulate Pietro into
> staying, and when the time was right, he gave Pietro permission to clean up the camps in
> wants an end to the persecution of mutants (as I look at it), doesn't in any way
> contradict the fact that he has some serious mental disorders, largely caused by the
> overuse and misuse of his powers.
You think so? They didn't seem too harsh to me. Separation was needed, cells
were needed. They weren't chained for the most part. I just don't think that
Mags would be so ... angry at those with the Legacy Virus as to make them suffer
more than the Legacy Virus does itself.
--
I say it again, the world is a mecca, society is at its best, when anti-racist
lobbyists have to say, "To Kill a Mockingbird" is a racist book because the main
accused villain is black. Thank goodness there's nothing worse.
Jameson Stalanthas Yu.
Lacy3399
>Not quite.
Well, yes, exactly, since you are saying once again, "...Magneto's
perspective..." and I'm saying, I agree with everything you say below, and
therefore, all the more reason why that low-brow brutal head-banging was
unnecessary and out of character.
It's hard to *argue* with you, because you're rationalizing the
characterization of Magneto in DS #3 to be the type of Magneto I want to see!
And I don't want to have to prove I'm wrong, because I want you to be right!
But I just don't see it, alas!
>Consider it from Magneto's perspective for a moment. He lost
>his only child to bigotry and hatred. Years later, he discovers he has two
>children he didn't know about. All of a sudden, he has a chance to make up
>for lost love. Unfortunately, his own actions have cost him somewhat. He
>is trying to show that he can be good and work in their system; they often
>reject it. He knows that any action he takes against them will anger them
>and hurt the chances of reconsiliation they have. If they view this
>machine as a danger, then not knowing Magneto's weakness fully, they will
>see his use of the machine as a power grab and think he is extending his
>"evil" power -- epecially Wanda. Thus in doing so, he is damaging his
>chance of reconciliation BUT he has to take it, he *has* to use the
>machine, because otherwise he will be dead. Plain and simple, he knows
>that the past few months have allowed his enemies to entrench. Plus,
>without the UN's lifting of sanctions, things are going to keep worsening
>in Genosha. He has to be ready for that too.
All true. All the more reason for Magneto to have handled his children
more gently, and especially, most especially, not to have dismissed the action
so coldly as "acceptable loss." It was his REACTION more than the action, that
bothered me.
>Wanda is an Avenger. As I wrote in another post in this thread, her vision
>is clouded by the values of her third family. Rejected from that family,
>Pietro looks back to his father and sees the need to turn Magneto towards
>some sort of reconsilliation himself.
Yes, I agree. Wanda also has pointedly rejected Magneto (first seen in
AVENGERS #234, "The Witch's Tale" where she rejects Magneto as her father after
the revelations of VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH vol.1, #4). Busiek very nicely
picked up on this recently; Wanda again has affirmed that she identifies with
her adopted Gypsy parents and that she considers Django Maximoff to be her
father.
>We don't know the extent to which Magneto has lost his powers. He may not
>be able to slow the blood stream at long distances without Polaris' help.
>He uses Polaris to destroy what's left of Carrion Cove.
Well that is one of the plot holes of DS#3. He does have the power, it's
shown eddying around him as he walks into the Fenyick caves. He uses his POWER
to hit Wanda and Pietro together, not his hands. He could have used the same
power to affect the sleep centers of their brains, or (as Marvel likes to have
us believe, since it's not likely to be useful except to cause someone to have
a stroke) slow the blood to their brains.
I mean, I want there to be a better explanation. But I don't see one.
Magneto had some power as he entered the cave. The art shows us this. He used
his power to move the bodies of Wanda and Pietro -- that means using Magnetism
on the flesh and bone which is a lot harder than using it on the iron in the
blood stream.
>Don't forget that for Magneto, the threat is power more than the power
>itself.
>He rules Genosha through that fear, but Fabian -- through his scenes with
>Wanda on tour -- demonstrates that Magneto hasn't been using his powers
>towards anything in the country. Heck, a full powered Magneto could form a
>city if he wanted to; this one can't.
Indeed. One of the sub-plots of the series -- a kind-of psychological
sub-plot. Magneto wants his power back, but for what? He really could do so
much with his power. As Xavier has told him often enough.
>Turning back to Rogue, Pietro and Wanda, I think Magneto has never had the
>strength of supported leadership the way Xavier has and that's what hurts
>him most. Consider this: Xavier is wounded most through his heart, but he
>guards his emotions very carefully and it cost him through Onslaught
>(something which got screwed up in "The Hunt for Xavier" etc. onwards).
Yes. And Magnus expresses his pain through anger and violence. Actually,
I've had the impression that Xavier has always been deathly afraid of what he
might do, if he were to cut-loose out of anger and pain; which is what
Onslaught was supposed to show us before Magneto was added to the mix.
>In contrast, Magneto sees intimacy as a sharing of threat. He has been
>surrounded by backstabbers throughout his life, from Strucker (the guy
>came back to haunt him once more) to Mastermind (notice how Magneto kept
>the Brotherhood in line with fear except Pietro and Wanda) to the Acolytes.
>Only in the X-Men did he come close with Storm... but immediately afterwards
>he joins the Hellfire Club, which negates that. Heck, fear is what was
>seen by the New Mutants.
>
>For Magneto, a position in power -- a REAL position such as this -- means
>that if he's close to Rogue, she will probably oppose him when he does
>something she doesn't approve of. He can't reconsile with his former
>students, much as he DOES care for them (that part of his psyche has been
>maintained) because they follow Cable's rules now. As for Wanda and Pietro,
>they were his most desired connections, but if they're too close they're
>targets and they too follow different rules.
Everything you say seems to be true, and I would add: Magneto also is
very afraid of loss, of losing those he loves, either through violence or them
running away. As he's stated more than once, most memorably (for me) in UXM
#274, when Rogue is in danger.
>He hasn't the time at that moment to use it. And Wanda, above all else,
>would never condone her father using the machine to restore his own powers
>in order to keep power; she has too much faith in "democracy" to let him
>rule like this and Magneto knows Wanda wants to turn her brother against him.
The Scarlet Witch has a second "father" -- Captain America, as she has
attested in different AVENGERS books. He's the one who had faith in Pietro and
herself, and Hawkeye, when they joined the Avengers. Pietro has also commented
on this, in past AVENGERS comics. I think it's safe to think that she certainly
believes in the American *ideal* of democracy; and when she has run up against
the darker side of American life (as when she and the Vision were attacked in
their home in New Jersey), she has always maintained a faith that things would
get better. (Except when she was Dark Wanda, under the control of Immortus and
started spouting anti-human hate speech.)
>I think Huxley wanted Cortez out of the picture. Huxley has her own plans
>for Genosha (see MAGNETO REX, etc.) and maybe she thinks that if she is
Maybe. We'll see in DS #4. I don't think she planned on Cortez being in
the picture -- who did? But I don't think she knows the extent of his treachery
or the deep darkness of his contacts. I think she just took advantage of
finding out Cortez is a slimy traitor, and decided to use him to her advantage
-- he has info she can use so she'll spare his life, or something like that.
We'll see how this plays out.
>Magneto's only trusted soul, she can misguide him into being the pawn
>which gives her the real power.
I'm not sure he trusts her. He says in MAGNETO REX that he doesn't trust
her. He thinks, in MAG REX #1, "... She's certainly blatant in her ambition and
may prove a worthy opponent at a later date, but for now she is useful to me."
So, I don't think Magneto thinks of Huxley as his most loyal supporter. I
really think HE thinks Amelia is his most loyal ally.
>As for planning it out... I think you're right in that aspect. Nevertheless,
>I think Huxley did recognize that if the technology were that important,
>there would be three ways of getting it:
> (a) through negotiations, which didn't work -- Carrion Cove stays
> stubborn.
> (b) lifting the embargo, thus allowing the Cove people to flee while
> they keep the technology as theirs -- but that was stopped by
> the UN.
> (c) war.
>And war won out. The Cove brought in outside help, which also suggests to
>me that it was an excuse to find out who's helping support anti-Magneto
>forces in Genosha (Roxxon) and maybe level charges against them.
Yes, good analysis. And this aspect of the book, Fabian N.'s ability to
make these political subplots so believable, is quite well done.
>Magneto was desparate. Also, as another person noted, the town was
>basically deserted by that point.
This is tough; I'm forced to find evidence that Mags was a mass murderer,
when usually I'm trying to find evidence that the body count wss low, as when
he unleashed the EMP wave in XM #25. I feel so conflicted. But, Pietro
comments twice on this. In DARK SEDUCTION #1, he thinks: "But what is for the
greater good of all? To prevent Magneto from consolidating this city ... and
accessing the power hidden here ... could put innocent civilians in immediate
and dire peril." Pietro thinks immediately of the good of the innocent
civilians when he ponders how they can stop Magneto. Then, later in DS #1, as
Pietro is running through Carrion Cove, he thinks: "Civilians are staying
inside their homes. Good." Two references to the presence of innocent
civilians.
Magneto acted in desperation, and had nothing but a cold, cruel attitude
towards his action. And there were homes and families and innocent civilians in
Carrion Cove.
>Plus, the battle had been going on for
>quite a while by the time Magneto showed up (since the Cove defenders had
>just been stopped when the Avengers appeared) so Magneto knew there were
>very few innocents in the immediate area.
No, Magneto knew what Pietro knew, most likely, that the civilians were
hiding in their homes to avoid the shelling and shooting. And this makes his
taking the buildings and homes and tearing them to pieces and throwing them
into the air, all the more horrible.
>Plus, overall, I think Magneto's thinking "Good of the many outweighs the
>needs of the few" here. If the action costs him a handful of lives but
>results in him being able to win much more for Genosha, then his greater
>goal has to win out because it helps all of mutantkind in Genosha.
Well, it depends on what he intends for Genosha. And it seems he's more
intent on regaining his power. We'll have to draw our conclusions after we read
DS #4. But the "good of the many" argument is not something he thought about in
his desperation to get to the genetic tech. It was his after-thought -- which
was not in character. Unless he's in one of his delusional or psychotic states;
he's lost touch with his emotions and his better-nature.
>And, of course, that makes him a villain because the heroes -- and the
>democratic world -- don't see it that way. To use another allusion, the
>Soviets used prisons to break dissidents and the West objected. Yet it
>modernized Russia, which was the goal that Stalin and his cabinet was
>working for. It was right in some eyes and wrong in others. For Magneto,
>he's on the side which thinks it's right.
The comparison to Stalin does not bring me joy, and only convinces me that
this characterization in DS #3 is all wrong; Magneto is not out to be a
dictator, or is he? I thought he wanted a mutant safe-haven, a mutant homeland.
I thought he was handling things relatively openly -- in MAGNETO REX and DS #1
and DS #2. Despite the nasty opening narration of MAGNETO REX #1, it seemed he
was trying to pacify the island and make it a mutant homeland. I don't want any
comparisons to Stalin's Soviet Union -- where millions and millions of people
died and were killed. Stalin is considered one of the worst dictators in
history. That's my complaint -- Magneto should not be portrayed as another
Stalin.
Nothing we had seen thus far, including his treatment of the non-mutants
among the population, seemed too inhumane, in comparison to the usual ways
nations have of dealing with formerly hostile minorities. Nothing on Genosha
seems as bad, for example, as the way the US government treated the various
defeated Indian Nations in the 19th century. That's why Magneto completely
destroying Carrion Cove, and killing innocent civilians -- some of whom might
have been mutates or mutant-born -- is so jarring and seems nothing but a jab
in the ribs to remind us of how Magneto is an eevil villain afterall.
>I think Amelia has always been shown as someone who wants better for
>herself and others, but has no taste for blood or power posturing. To me,
>I think she fears an all powerful Magneto because that Magneto will be out
>to rule the world
This seems to be the consensus among the characters in this story.
Question is, why does Amelia feel this way? She didn't before.What changed her
mind? She is a character who the reader is supposed to identify with -- thus
leading readers to suppose the same thing. Magneto getting his powers back will
try to rule the world.
>As for the Amelia-
>Pietro-Magneto triangle, note that of all the Acolytes only two were ever
>level headed... and one of them is now an X-Man once more. Pietro knows
>this, and Magneto has used Amelia as an advisor because he knows that she
>can think things out rather than be simply obedient (which Pietro sees as
>well, hence MAGNETO REX's bigger picture). But that doesn't stop Amelia
>from making her own mind as well... at one point, she was siding with
>Xavier after Magneto, if you recall, if only for part of an issue.
I think the point of that issue -- was it XM #45? was that Amelia can NOT
make up her own mind. She is confused, and can't find her way. And in UXM #315,
the trial of Neophyte I think it was, Amelia was a hard-ass. Only Piotr was
level-headed in that one. That's why Amelia's sudden rebellion against Magneto
in DARK SEDUCTION doesn't make sense.
Magneto out and out told Amelia, at the end of the MAGNETO WAR one shot,
to look after his children, because he was about to burn the blight that is
humanity off the face of the earth. And she still followed him. Still thought
he was wonderful. So, what made her change her mind? Other than Mr. N. suddenly
deciding she was a good-guy and no longer "confused."
>larger nation from Genosha. Not
>immediately, though, since Genosha also has to have order and strength
>internally first. But it's a long range goal, and I think this is what
>the heroes see as the immediate problem.
Oh, geez, so you're saying, Magneto wants to conquer the world. Long range
goal. Africa first, maybe? It's a neighboring continent. That's exactly what I
do not want to see happen ever in the X-books.
>As for Moira and Xavier... Xavier's got more than his share of
>psychological problems, and Moira's never really commented on it
>until the very end of EXCALIBUR (like the response to the Xavier
>Protocols) so I wouldn't count them as great psychologists. Certainly
>Magneto has issues that should be dealt with through laying on the couch,
>but they aren't as dangerous as "the heroes" make them out to be. He's not
>a pure villain or an anti-hero; he's someone who wishes a different order
>than the one regular society wants, as opposed to most traditional
>villains which prefer chaos.
Magneto has wanted different things over the years. So many bizarre and
unfocused ideas! The only possible explanation for his behavior from the time
he invented the Magneto persona, is mental illness! And as stated, he has been
diagnosed. Most of the heroes of the Marvel universe recognized him as insane,
before the de-aging/re-aging. And he himself called that his "time of madness."
Moira was accurately assessing what the over-use of his powers does to his
brain, in XM #2. And Legion pulled some of the "demons" out of Magnus' head, in
the Legion Quest story.
Xavier IS good at assessing and diagnosing. He's just not real good at
treatment plans. One of his great failures, to me, is that he knew his friend
Magnus had serious mental problems, even when they were friends in Israel, and
he didn't do much to help him.
No, I think the references in the comics make it clear, and Magneto's
behavior is nearly text-book for several mental disorders; he has problems. His
ideals have changed drastically so often, that one cannot say he has always
wanted a different social order, and that's his sole definition as a "villain."
It is so much more complex than that.
And besides, saying that he wants a particular social order, or rather he
wants an end to the persecution of mutants (as I look at it), doesn't in any
way contradict the fact that he has some serious mental disorders, largely
caused by the overuse and misuse of his powers.
(This seems to be the new way of dealing with professonal testimony in
the comic books -- as seen in the HULK, re: Dr. Samson's previous diagnosis of
Banner -- you want to change the character, just say the doctor or expert is
not accurate or wrong. In XM #2, Moira MacTaggert was speaking as the one most
qualified expert on the physiology and psychology of Magneto -- and I hold her
diagnosis to be accurate.)
>Magneto certainly has a lot of reasons to fear for his life if things ever
>turn sour, and with Carrion Cove we still have a visible icon that things
>are not as rosy as they might hope to be. Magneto has restored order and
>prosperity to Genosha, but not freedom or real happiness.. YET.
"YET." I so much hope that Marvel will let Magneto actually respond to
the call; like the fable of the thief who puts on the mayor's coat, and starts
to feel and act like a responsible, honest, and upright man. I would like to
see Genosha bring out the better angels in this superpowered but oh-so-human
man. So far, in DS #3, we've seen some of the worst he is capable of.
>Pietro doesn't agree with his father's philosophy at all. Nevertheless, he
>knows his father IS trying to do something good in making Genosha open to
>mutants where they can live without hated (something his sister never
>realized, since it's only recently anti-mutant hatred has touched her in
>recent years).
No, she's suffered from anti-mutant hatred -- it's the very thing that
Magneto rescued her from (her and Pietro) in some nameless Eastern European
village, when they were young teens. I think your earlier analysis is correct
-- she's an Avenger, and she has modeled herself after Captain America and
another of her mentors has been Tony Stark. When she wasn't thinking of herself
as a superhero and an Avenger, she was thinking of herself as a witch --
studying with Agatha Harkness. Anti-mutant violence has hit her, but she just
doesn't see the situation in the same way as her brother, or Magneto.
>You also probably haven't seen them because (a) Legacy may have been
>solved by now [but not bloody well likely], (b) cleaning them up meant
>putting the population back in to the general one, and/or (c) hiding them
>from the UN as normal communities to make it look better and hopefully
>lift sanctions better. It's also possible -- and maybe likely -- that in
>Sinister's manipulations he accidentally wiped out a lot of Legacy around
>the world..
Good point, and I thought that might be what Marvel would say -- that the
beam of Sinister/High Evolutionary -- by wiping out the mutant powers -- caused
the virus to leave the bodies that were afflicted. Could still be. Of course,
that wouldn't help poor Moira. And the virus is a mutating type, that might
reprogram itself to "hide" dormant in the host's body until the specific
x-factor gene was reactivated.
In any case, I do give great weight to Magneto giving Pietro permission
to clean up those camps! It was a very important theme of both MAGNETO REX, and
the Epilogue in UNLIMITED #24. Magneto set up one of those camps to be
especially harsh, just to manipulate Pietro into staying, and when the time was
right, he gave Pietro permission to clean up the camps in order to make Pietro
feel he was actually accomplishing something, reinforcing Pietro's desire to
stay on Genosha.
Lacy
Brian Fried
> Well, yes, exactly, since you are saying once again, "...Magneto's
> perspective..." and I'm saying, I agree with everything you say below, and
> therefore, all the more reason why that low-brow brutal head-banging was
> unnecessary and out of character.
> It's hard to *argue* with you, because you're rationalizing the
> characterization of Magneto in DS #3 to be the type of Magneto I want to see!
> And I don't want to have to prove I'm wrong, because I want you to be right!
> But I just don't see it, alas!
We agree to disagree, which is the best thing two rational people can say
when getting into a discussion about perceived character motivations. I've
found a lot of the points you raised interesting and thought provoking.
> All true. All the more reason for Magneto to have handled his children
> more gently, and especially, most especially, not to have dismissed the action
> so coldly as "acceptable loss." It was his REACTION more than the action, that
> bothered me.
Understood. It's tough to have this familial connection, because Marvel
wants Magneto a villain, and unlike DC doesn't want to get into those
hero-villain connection complications (like those we see running rampant
through Titans... Arsenal anyone?)
> Yes, I agree. Wanda also has pointedly rejected Magneto (first seen in
> AVENGERS #234, "The Witch's Tale" where she rejects Magneto as her father after
> the revelations of VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH vol.1, #4). Busiek very nicely
> picked up on this recently; Wanda again has affirmed that she identifies with
> her adopted Gypsy parents and that she considers Django Maximoff to be her
> father.
Which is another way of distancing Wanda from Magneto, I might add.
There's a distinct angle in the Busiek AVENGERS which marks out Wanda's
magical gypsy heritage over her mutant one in order to develop her
character further. If this were a mutant book, her powers would be
naturally evolving or overcoming past restraints, not actually being
a further connection really never explored because magic is something you
grow into anyway.
> Well that is one of the plot holes of DS#3. He does have the power, it's
> shown eddying around him as he walks into the Fenyick caves. He uses his POWER
> to hit Wanda and Pietro together, not his hands. He could have used the same
> power to affect the sleep centers of their brains, or (as Marvel likes to have
> us believe, since it's not likely to be useful except to cause someone to have
> a stroke) slow the blood to their brains.
> I mean, I want there to be a better explanation. But I don't see one.
> Magneto had some power as he entered the cave. The art shows us this. He used
> his power to move the bodies of Wanda and Pietro -- that means using Magnetism
> on the flesh and bone which is a lot harder than using it on the iron in the
> blood stream.
Agreed and disagreed. The power around him... that's the plot hole.
However, Magneto's magnetic fields pushed the two heads together, whereas
the blood stream requires a little more finesse and he hasn't the feeling
of time around him.
> Indeed. One of the sub-plots of the series -- a kind-of psychological
> sub-plot. Magneto wants his power back, but for what? He really could do so
> much with his power. As Xavier has told him often enough.
That's where I see Fabian is treading the line. If Magneto wants to build
a power base in Genosha, then it's the first step. If it's a way of
keeping order in Genosha and the long term plans are really long term...
then this is the first step. It's logical for now, but the long term
applications will be dealt with in the future.
> Yes. And Magnus expresses his pain through anger and violence. Actually,
> I've had the impression that Xavier has always been deathly afraid of what he
> might do, if he were to cut-loose out of anger and pain; which is what
> Onslaught was supposed to show us before Magneto was added to the mix.
Indeed. Xavier's pain is totally interior, making him a terrible example
for the X-Men who need to play out their pain, like Rogue and Wolverine.
> Everything you say seems to be true, and I would add: Magneto also is
> very afraid of loss, of losing those he loves, either through violence or them
> running away. As he's stated more than once, most memorably (for me) in UXM
> #274, when Rogue is in danger.
Yep. Hence why he's worried about his kids. The act itself already turned
them against him, and now he's moving against them. It's not evidence for
a balanced Magneto, that's for sure.
> Maybe. We'll see in DS #4. I don't think she planned on Cortez being in
> the picture -- who did? But I don't think she knows the extent of his treachery
> or the deep darkness of his contacts. I think she just took advantage of
> finding out Cortez is a slimy traitor, and decided to use him to her advantage
> -- he has info she can use so she'll spare his life, or something like that.
> We'll see how this plays out.
After the six month gap, I think it's made pretty clear through
implication that Cortez thinks he's a primadonna. Certainly the scenes
with Magneto after Polaris is back. Huxley would pick up on Cortez' power
plays easily enough (heck, most of the Acolytes did eventually, showing
how clumsy a guy he is) and nobody wanted Cortez around.
> I'm not sure he trusts her. He says in MAGNETO REX that he doesn't trust
> her. He thinks, in MAG REX #1, "... She's certainly blatant in her ambition and
> may prove a worthy opponent at a later date, but for now she is useful to me."
> So, I don't think Magneto thinks of Huxley as his most loyal supporter. I
> really think HE thinks Amelia is his most loyal ally.
I'm talking about Huxley, though, who wants the perception of being most
loyal and most needed. Magneto is aware of this, but he doesn't let on,
which is one of the better things about the political aspects of this
storyline. Everybody wants the power in some ways (except, maybe,
Pipeline) and so Magneto is keeping his cards very close to the chest as
they play things out.
> This is tough; I'm forced to find evidence that Mags was a mass murderer,
> when usually I'm trying to find evidence that the body count wss low, as when
> he unleashed the EMP wave in XM #25. I feel so conflicted. But, Pietro
> comments twice on this. In DARK SEDUCTION #1, he thinks: "But what is for the
> greater good of all? To prevent Magneto from consolidating this city ... and
> accessing the power hidden here ... could put innocent civilians in immediate
> and dire peril." Pietro thinks immediately of the good of the innocent
> civilians when he ponders how they can stop Magneto. Then, later in DS #1, as
> Pietro is running through Carrion Cove, he thinks: "Civilians are staying
> inside their homes. Good." Two references to the presence of innocent
> civilians.
> Magneto acted in desperation, and had nothing but a cold, cruel attitude
> towards his action. And there were homes and families and innocent civilians in
> Carrion Cove.
But, at the same time, Carrion Cove stands against him in spirit, which
makes them a valid target in a civil war. Also, from the way he acts, I do
think there's an attitude of "the Avengers will save them." I don't have
the issue right in front of me to quote from, but the basic idea is that
it's the Avengers' credo which will make them turn to protect the civilians,
something a lot of writers have done when establishing a weakness to the
heroes. Heck, everyone knows the good guys will save someone first before
running after the villain... it's in a lot of Spider-Man books especially.
> The comparison to Stalin does not bring me joy, and only convinces me that
> this characterization in DS #3 is all wrong; Magneto is not out to be a
> dictator, or is he? I thought he wanted a mutant safe-haven, a mutant homeland.
> I thought he was handling things relatively openly -- in MAGNETO REX and DS #1
> and DS #2. Despite the nasty opening narration of MAGNETO REX #1, it seemed he
> was trying to pacify the island and make it a mutant homeland. I don't want any
> comparisons to Stalin's Soviet Union -- where millions and millions of people
> died and were killed. Stalin is considered one of the worst dictators in
> history. That's my complaint -- Magneto should not be portrayed as another
> Stalin.
> Nothing we had seen thus far, including his treatment of the non-mutants
> among the population, seemed too inhumane, in comparison to the usual ways
> nations have of dealing with formerly hostile minorities. Nothing on Genosha
> seems as bad, for example, as the way the US government treated the various
> defeated Indian Nations in the 19th century. That's why Magneto completely
> destroying Carrion Cove, and killing innocent civilians -- some of whom might
> have been mutates or mutant-born -- is so jarring and seems nothing but a jab
> in the ribs to remind us of how Magneto is an eevil villain afterall.
I'm not comparing Stalin and Magneto as tyrants, though. I'm saying that
there are different attitudes during the regime. Stalin was seen as the
great modernizer, despite the bloodshed around them. Magneto knows he will
never stoop that low. However, Magneto IS using the same forced
modernization, opening him up for comparison. And it's that comparison
Wanda is making, because she's holding on to American ideals, as well as
the UN, who are holding on to their own as well. They view democracy as
the only way to build a country; Magneto or Pietro admits in the first issue
that if the humans leave, the country loses its professionals and without
connections to other countries, it will fall back into chaos. Ergo, he's
kinda screwed either way.
> This seems to be the consensus among the characters in this story.
> Question is, why does Amelia feel this way? She didn't before.What changed her
> mind? She is a character who the reader is supposed to identify with -- thus
> leading readers to suppose the same thing. Magneto getting his powers back will
> try to rule the world.
Six months is to have gone by, though. And we're supposed to see a change
in Amelia, I think, because (a) she really does care about Pietro and
Magneto, and by extension (b) she's authentically worried about what it
might do to him and his dreams. Imagine Magneto building an army... after
six months of relative peace, it could all be shattered by megalomania.
Note that when Amelia *IS* an Acolyte (#300-) Magneto is, for the most
part, in a coma. She believes he might have the right tack, but she's
against violence in total except where absolutely necessary.
> I think the point of that issue -- was it XM #45? was that Amelia can NOT
> make up her own mind. She is confused, and can't find her way. And in UXM #315,
> the trial of Neophyte I think it was, Amelia was a hard-ass. Only Piotr was
> level-headed in that one. That's why Amelia's sudden rebellion against Magneto
> in DARK SEDUCTION doesn't make sense.
> Magneto out and out told Amelia, at the end of the MAGNETO WAR one shot,
> to look after his children, because he was about to burn the blight that is
> humanity off the face of the earth. And she still followed him. Still thought
> he was wonderful. So, what made her change her mind? Other than Mr. N. suddenly
> deciding she was a good-guy and no longer "confused."
She cared also for Pietro and Wanda being along with their father. Note
that Amelia is often away from the most violent of acts by Magneto, and
she's usually given the trusted assignments which are more out of
compassion than anything else. And in that Uncanny issue with Neophyte,
she tells Piotr that she took the hard line for image rather than feeling.
> Oh, geez, so you're saying, Magneto wants to conquer the world. Long range
> goal. Africa first, maybe? It's a neighboring continent. That's exactly what I
> do not want to see happen ever in the X-books.
But it may happen. The door is always open. I think that's Powers and Co.
wanting to make Magneto the villain again by saying he wants to conquer
the world, and leaving it there for another major crossover deal. Right
now it's not part of the picture, except as an abstract possible future.
I do agree on your psychoanalysis comments.
> "YET." I so much hope that Marvel will let Magneto actually respond to
> the call; like the fable of the thief who puts on the mayor's coat, and starts
> to feel and act like a responsible, honest, and upright man. I would like to
> see Genosha bring out the better angels in this superpowered but oh-so-human
> man. So far, in DS #3, we've seen some of the worst he is capable of.
But, at the same time, it's working. I think the main idea is to show he
can be good and villainous at the same time while they wait and see what
someone will come up with for Magneto. Keep in mind, Claremont didn't want
Magneto in the X-books at all for the first year he's on, saying it's
better to stick to new ideas and characters. Nicieza's proposal was taken
by the Powers that be, and so it's building up on what's happened
recently, but it's not going to go too far out one way or another. Magneto
is, in Fabian's own words, a character and situation worth returning to on
an annual occassion, meaning that Magneto could dratically improve from
time to time without going evil or it could go the reverse, depending on
future decisions. RIght now, it's having to play on the balancing line.
Personally, I'd like to see him make a go of it. But I understand that
runs contrary to the "pure evil" version of the villains that Marvel likes.
Heck, I think in the past two or so years we've had a number of people
note how beneficial Doom actually is to Latveria in many aspects.
You're right about the forced camps to make Pietro come. It's made to look
played.
As for the Legacy thing... it's a good story allowed to go on too long.
Scott Lobdell looked like he was dropping hints along for the closure, but
never got to it because of the hypercycle the X-Men were in. Ben Raab
picked up on those points... and his book got closed down. It's time to
end it, and the Sinister thing about putting it on hold would make the
Legacy disappear from noticability for a little while until they CAN deal
with it. Heck, I'd respect Claremont and co. a lot more if they do a
mini-series that takes place over the six month gap showing the solving of
the virus in general (but not some specific cases), thus not ruining
present continuity and still tying up big loose ends.
Terrafamilia
Brian Fried wrote:
> He's not
> a pure villain or an anti-hero; he's someone who wishes a different order
> than the one regular society wants, as opposed to most traditional
> villains which prefer chaos.
If this were Image, the Authority would be trying to recruit him. ;)
Ciao,
Terrafamilia
fait...@my-deja.com
> Lacy3399 (lacy...@aol.com)
> Magneto or Pietro admits in the first issue that if the humans
> leave, the country loses its professionals and without connections
> to other countries, it will fall back into chaos. Ergo, he's kinda
> screwed either way.
Genosha's resources are an important issue. See below.
> > Oh, geez, so you're saying, Magneto wants to conquer the world.
> > Long range goal. Africa first, maybe? It's a neighboring
> > continent. That's exactly what I
> > do not want to see happen ever in the X-books.
> But it may happen. The door is always open. I think that's Powers
> and Co.wanting to make Magneto the villain again by saying he wants
> to conquer the world, and leaving it there for another major
> crossover deal. Right now it's not part of the picture, except as
> an abstract possible future.
Or it might not. The issue being that I think both of you are thinking
in extremes. He is either one way or the other. The whole point is
that Magneto even as a villain that Marvel may want him to be is a
tortured one with a specific purpose. Even if his purpose is now to
just establish a strong protective homeland for mutants, he still may
feel the need to "expand his borders" as it were. Remember that Genosha
is an island. It's resources without outside connections have to be
limited. Even if Magneto is the greatest ruler ever and gets all their
internal problems together, he may be very limited by outside influences
and could feel the only way to truly make his mutant nation strong and
self-sufficient is to expand it's land and resources to the place that
it can literally survive on its on to be strong enough to ward off
outside pressure and that could mean he believes they need a tie to a
mainland.
The point being that there are so many scenarios out there that could
make Magneto a "villain" while still be true to his dream that as this
story implies, the whole conquer the world bit could just be the rest of
the MU's own fears instead of reality and there is no reason that just
because Marvel wants to keep him as a villain that he has to give that
up (yes he has in the past but there are times he hasn't to me too).
I've had no real big problems with this series. I've both sympathized
and understood the issues Magneto's having to deal with though not
always agreed with his solutions and have not seen him as plain ole
evil.
Truthfully I agree with Marvel, the MU needs way more good unique
villains than it needs new or converted heros (for mutancy supposedly
being so rare, it seems to produce a lot of heros) and Magneto fits this
better than most when written well showing why he is as controversial as
he should be.
Take care,
Faith
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ht...@webtv.net
he knew that the Avengers were going to save folks. He had no doubt, so
he knows that there is no danger. What it does do is show that the
Avengers will think him an eeevil villain, not knowing his possibly good
reason to go to Carrion Cove.>>
If you reread the issue than I imagine you saw this passage from
Magneto
"It is unfortunate that I was forced into such a distasteful display but
any human lives sacrificed in my gambit will have been in greater good
to the service of mutantkind."
The only thing Magneto knew with reasonable certainty was that The
Avengers would rather try to save lives than chase him. Between
Avengers and Amelia, Pipeline, and Pietro, you have about 8 people to
save how many lives? And as Magneto himself says, they're only human.
He's cold. clinical and a mutant supremacist ,to boot.
<<Agreed on the Stalin point. Though now I wonder, which is a better
ruler, Doom or Magneto? Doom is pretty egalitarian in his actions to
others, he is brutal to all races, creeds and sex who oppose. Mags has
that compassion bit to him, he's pretty fair to everyone, even to those
he knows that don't like what he thinks. He tolerates those that don't
like his ideas, and only acts against those that physically acted
against him, like he did with Exodus and Cortez. I kinda understand his
desire for a homeland. I see a parallel to Israel, wanting a homeland.
And I see other minority groups always talking about needing a place to
call their own. >>
It's ironic that you compare Doom and Magneto because I see a lot of
similarities in how Genosha is being set up. He rules a prosperous
country with an iron fist while the eventual goal is world rule.
Latveria, under Doom, had no crime or poverty. The citizens lead quiet
content lives with absolutely no personal freedom. You think Magneto
has treated humans well in this series? They're not even allowed to
leave if they want, they're only allowed out at certain hours. I think
Magneto will be just as ruthless with any opposition he encounters,
destroying Carrion Cove being the perfect example. Yes , The Avengers
were attacking him but he was the one who put innocent lives in danger.
To me his knowing about the technology for months and biding his time
is hard to swallow. I don't buy his waiting months to regain his power
because going right in and taking it would have ruffled a few political
feathers. He doesn't even go to Carrion Cove until he hears The
Avengers are there. The Genoshan troops had already taken the city by
that point. Pipeline, Caragill or several other people he doesn't
completely trust might have gotten their hands on it first. At the very
least, I would think he would be leading the fighting there to ensure he
was on hand to get the technology when the city was taken. I also don't
think Huxley knew about it. Amelia didn't and I would say Magneto
trusts her a hell of a lot more than Huxley.
Aardy R. DeVarque
>Aardy R. DeVarque wrote:
>> Jerry Jones <jjo...@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> >The secret
>> >of Carrion Cove doesn't seem all that important to someone like Magneto
>> >who
>> >already has similar technology, definitely not worth throwing his
>> >relationship
>> >with his children away.
>>
>> Given what the *origin* of secret of Carrion Cove probably is, it *is* worth
>> it to Magneto to do whatever it takes to get his hands on it.
>>
>> Possible spoilers...
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
>> The answer, of course, is Sugar Man, with his AoA technology & extensive
>> knowledge of mutation. He may not be there anymore (I seem to remember him
>> fleeing Genosha a while back), but his technology apparently still is...
>>
>> Magneto with everyday mutate technology, so what; his Savage Land stories
>> showed him with "advanced" but otherwise normal technology. Magneto with
>> the *original* AoA technology of which only a small bit was released and
>> became Genosha's advanced mutate technology? A scary thing indeed.
>>
>
>Magneto's original technology was far from "normal", it was technology
>that had belonged to Maelstrom, the best genetist around. I don't
>believe that original AoA technology is that more advanced,if at all.
AoA's tech is Apocalypse-based. Apocalypse's tech is *Celestial*-based.
That definitely tops the High Evolutionary's tech, probably trumps
Maelstrom's tech, and might even trump even the Stranger's tech.
>And the aspect that most scares people who wish to keep it out of his
>hands,
>the idea that he would created a super mutate army, kinda falls flat
>since
>the last time he went down this path he was reduced to an infant.
And you think he doesn't think he's learned from his mistake, and wouldn't
do something like remove "free will" from his next creation, namely "Beta,
the Penultimate Mutant"? (qv. the meat puppets in X-Force, for a similar
example.)