What the hell were they thinking when they did that?
Michael R. Grabois
The title of this post comes from a "Saturday Night Live" skit a couple
years ago, a talk show featuring actors who had quit profitable jobs to then
go on to do dubious work later on (like Shelley Long, who quit "Cheers" to
make a string of forgettable movies).
So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
etc. I don't want to include obvious stunts (like replacing Batman with
Azrael or turning Superman into an electricity-based hero, both of which
were/are storylines that are designed to make us see the lead character
differently when he finally returns, whole and healed), but rather just
plain dumb moves. It usually results in such negative backlash that the
company often (but not always) reverses itself.
So, what were the various comic companies thinking when they came up with
(in no particular order):
- Tony Stark is really a pawn of Kang. When he turns evil he's killed,
but a young counterpart assumes the mantle of Iron Man. (Also known as
the "Iron Boy" debacle)
- Peter Parker was really the clone for the last 20 years, and the real Peter
was roaming the country. (Also known as the "Clone Saga" debacle)
- Hal Jordan had been mentally unstable, and when his hometown of Coast City
was destroyed, he went nuts, killing many Green Lanterns and Guardians,
before trying to remake the Universe. (Also known as the "Emerald Toilet"
debacle).
- The Legion of Super-Heroes, formerly a group of teens and young adults in
a utopian future, turned grim-n-gritty in a future now very much dystopic.
(Also known as the V4 debacle, though this has many strong fans)
Any others?
--
Michael R. Grabois | http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mgrabois
Houston, TX | or...@ix.netcom.com CI$: 74737,2600
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"People say losing builds character. That's the stupidest thing I ever
heard. All losing does is suck. " -- Charles Barkley, 9/29/96
Henry Spencer
In article <3447972e...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Michael R. Grabois <or...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
>of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
>Any others?
Bringing back Jean Grey surely has to qualify for this list.
--
If NT is the answer, you didn't | Henry Spencer
understand the question. -- Peter Blake | he...@zoo.toronto.edu
Jeanne Burch
Michael R. Grabois wrote:
>
> So, what were the various comic companies thinking when they came up with
> (in no particular order):
(snip)
The oh-Wanda-didn't-have-kids-just-figments (and BTW, the previous
Vision origin, years in the making, was wrong) trash that showed up in
WCA. Years of history were dumped in less than 10 issues. The glaring
continuity gaps have never been filled in. Probably the worst Marvel
storyline ever before the clone thing in Spidey (and it ranks up there
with the clone think, IMHO)
Jeanne
_______________________________________________________________
The Women of Marvel Comics! <http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/2855>
The Villains of Marvel Comics! <http://www.sigma.net/burch/index.html>
Andy
Henry Spencer wrote:
>
> In article <3447972e...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
> Michael R. Grabois <or...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
> >of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
> >etc. I don't want to include obvious stunts...
> >Any others?
>
> Bringing back Jean Grey surely has to qualify for this list.
Not only the bringing back part, but using one of those "It was just a
clone!" retcons. Has a retcon involving a clone ever actually worked?
Tom Galloway
In article <34462E...@mail.utexas.edu> andys...@mail.utexas.edu writes:
>Not only the bringing back part, but using one of those "It was just a
>clone!" retcons. Has a retcon involving a clone ever actually worked?
Bringing in a still young Newsboy Legion and Guardian seemed to do the
trick. Of course, Kirby did it for the Guardian, and it was probably one
of the first, if not the first, uses of such.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Robert J. Brown
Jeanne Burch <jbu...@spam.sunstroke.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>Michael R. Grabois wrote:
>
>The oh-Wanda-didn't-have-kids-just-figments (and BTW, the previous
>Vision origin, years in the making, was wrong) trash that showed up in
>WCA. Years of history were dumped in less than 10 issues. The glaring
>continuity gaps have never been filled in. Probably the worst Marvel
>storyline ever before the clone thing in Spidey (and it ranks up there
>with the clone think, IMHO)
>
>Jeanne
>_______________________________________________________________
I thoroughly enjoyed this storyline by John Byrne. I was only
disappointed that he didn't get a chance to finish it due to editorial
interference.
Robert.
Justin Samuels
MarcusJN wrote:
>
> >Clones and characters from Alternate Universes/Futures are the absolute bane of
> >my comic existence.
> >
> >Nathan Grey: the Alernate Universe equivalent of a character from an alternate
> >future.
> >
> >That's why I hate him so much. What an abomination. And he has his own book.
> >Mark Powers or Bob Harras should lose fingers for that one.
>
> I totally agree with you on this one. Alternate future/dimension
> people need to be gotten rid of. Cable, Shard, X-Man, and Bishop.
> Even though I liked Bishop but they have been messing him up before he
> was taken by Deathbird. Cable and X-Man, to me, are the same person.
> Two near, infinite power having mutants born of Scott and Jean/Maddie
> dealing with their powers. If I was in control the previous four
> mutants would be the first to go.
Neither Cable or Nate Grey will go anywhere. Both their respective
books sell well, and that's too much money for Marvel to ignore. Comic
companies follow the law of supply and demand. People want Cable and
X-Man ,so Marvel continues to print these books.
David Robeson
In article <3447EF...@natlib.govt.nz>, Duncan Hay
<Dunca...@natlib.govt.nz> wrote:
> Add in his ignoring any character development on Magneto to turn him back
> into the generic evil mastermind in NM #75 and you begin to wonder why
> anyone lets him near their comics.
Actually, he only *drew* NM #75; my understanding is that he didn't want
to have anything to do with it until they told him it was the issue where
Magneto goes bad again. So it wasn't really his fault...
Dave
A. Travis
I enjoyed it as well. Through this story, Marvel regained the use of
the android Human Torch. Also, the idea that the Scarlet Witch had two
kids with a robot always gave me the willies. ---Alan
brian j. tang
Andy wrote:
>
> > >Any others?
> >
> > Bringing back Jean Grey surely has to qualify for this list.
>
> clone!" retcons. Has a retcon involving a clone ever actually worked?
Clones and characters from Alternate Universes/Futures are the absolute bane of
A Walter Shade of Pale
Hawkman.
-walt
--
"You can't really expect Tina Turner
to get up on stage and not be sexy!"
-Joan Osborne
Peter Judge
>- Peter Parker was really the clone for the last 20 years, and the real Peter
> was roaming the country. (Also known as the "Clone Saga" debacle)
>
I'd heard about the Clone garbage, but that.... well... I'm breathtaken.
--
Peter Judge
MarcusJN
>Clones and characters from Alternate Universes/Futures are the absolute bane of
>my comic existence.
>
>Nathan Grey: the Alernate Universe equivalent of a character from an alternate
>future.
>
>That's why I hate him so much. What an abomination. And he has his own book.
>Mark Powers or Bob Harras should lose fingers for that one.
I totally agree with you on this one. Alternate future/dimension
A. Travis
Please don't interrupt Byrne bashing with facts. The ruling party of
the newsgroup don't like it when someone interrupts their never-ending
burning in effigy of a great comics creator.
---Alan
Duncan Hay
Jeanne Burch wrote:
>
> Michael R. Grabois wrote:
>
> >
> > (in no particular order):
> (snip)
>
> Vision origin, years in the making, was wrong) trash that showed up in
> WCA. Years of history were dumped in less than 10 issues. The glaring
> continuity gaps have never been filled in. Probably the worst Marvel
> storyline ever before the clone thing in Spidey (and it ranks up there
> with the clone think, IMHO)
>
> Jeanne
> _______________________________________________________________
> The Villains of Marvel Comics! <http://www.sigma.net/burch/index.html>
Funny how two of the worst pieces of writing mentioned on this thread are
by John 'the butcher' Byrne.
Add in his ignoring any character development on Magneto to turn him back
into the generic evil mastermind in NM #75 and you begin to wonder why
anyone lets him near their comics.
After 100 sometimes brilliant, sometimes average issues of Wonder woman,
John Byrne comes along and gets me to drop it after two issues.
Duncan Hay
Grumpy old man
Andrew C. Lannen
On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:14:04 -0500, Pariah <rwhi...@bayou.uh.edu>
wrote:
>Michael R. Grabois wrote:
>> - Hal Jordan had been mentally unstable, and when his hometown of Coast City
>> was destroyed, he went nuts, killing many Green Lanterns and Guardians,
>> before trying to remake the Universe. (Also known as the "Emerald Toilet"
>> debacle).
>
>Eh.. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I don't think it was
>THAT bad. Anyone, even the great Hal Jordan, would become unstable if
>they lost their whole entire hometown (even if he hadn't been there for
>a few years). Jordan went over a little over and the series was far too
>short, but it works within the confines of the replacing of silver age
>heroes. The way I see it, at least he went out with a bang. I kind of
>wish Oliver Queen went out that way.
Ollie got blown up in an airplane. I think that qualifies as a
*bang*, don't you?
As for Emerald Toilet, it was horrendous. I refuse to believe
that everyone would go nuts if their hometown was destroyed.
Particularly when Hal's entire career had been based on his mental
stability and enormous willpower. He'd faced worse things before
without snapping like a swizzle stick. I consider the last Green
Lantern series to have ended at #47 and refuse to acknowledge any
issues after that. Period.
--Andrew
--
Andrew C. Lannen and...@ix.netcom.com
"God cannot alter the past, that is why he is obliged to
connive at the existence of historians"--Samuel Butler
Dan McEwen
On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:11:27 -0500, Andy <andys...@mail.utexas.edu>
wrote:
>Henry Spencer wrote:
>>
>> In article <3447972e...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
>> Michael R. Grabois <or...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
>> >of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
>> >etc. I don't want to include obvious stunts...
>> >Any others?
>>
>> Bringing back Jean Grey surely has to qualify for this list.
>
>
>Not only the bringing back part, but using one of those "It was just a
>clone!" retcons. Has a retcon involving a clone ever actually worked?
Nope. Actually, I didn't mind Jean's return all that much. It was
the retcons surrounding it I hated. "Phoenix wasn't really Jean but
Madelyne _was_ [in the sense that she's Jean's clone]). It was silly
and stupid, and I wish none of that had ever happened. Basically,
Jean's resurrection led to the death's of Madelyne and Illyana.
Dan
djmc...@worldnet.att.net
fe...@lsh.org
http://home.att.net/~djmcewen/personal.html
Michael Lehmeier t771202
Duncan Hay (Dunca...@natlib.govt.nz) wrote:
> Jeanne Burch wrote:
> >
> > Michael R. Grabois wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > (in no particular order):
> > (snip)
> >
> > The oh-Wanda-didn't-have-kids-just-figments (and BTW, the previous
> > Vision origin, years in the making, was wrong) trash that showed up in
> > WCA.
> Funny how two of the worst pieces of writing mentioned on this thread are
> by John 'the butcher' Byrne.
> Add in his ignoring any character development on Magneto to turn him back
> into the generic evil mastermind in NM #75 and you begin to wonder why
> anyone lets him near their comics.
At that time I wasn't too concerned with Magneto becoming a villain again.
He just became the kind of villain I could accept. Later storylines
proved that.
That was until he had to die as a farewell gift to Claremont (also not
bad) and then was brought back first as a homicidal lunatic (UXM 304)
and than turned into a mindless vegetable, was de-aged without
explanation and is now only a pale and worthless piece of unimaginative
writing.
No, Byrne didn't butcher Magneto. Did he even write NM #75?
Scott Lobdell did.
But I agree with Wanda's kids. That one was unforgivable.
--
The Nightshade Dragon -==(UDIC)==-
http://rphc1.physik.uni-regensburg.de/~lem11441/
Lehmeier Michael (Michael....@stud.uni-regensburg.de)
The Last Unicorn - Ghost in the Shell - The Secret of Nimh
Nausicaa - Felidae - Aeon Flux - I HATE DISNEY !!!!
Ms. Victory
> Please don't interrupt Byrne bashing with facts. The ruling party of
> the newsgroup don't like it when someone interrupts their never-ending
> burning in effigy of a great comics creator.
>
Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
--
-Joan Wayne
aka, Ms. Victory
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
: >The oh-Wanda-didn't-have-kids-just-figments (and BTW, the previous
: >Vision origin, years in the making, was wrong) trash that showed up in
: >WCA. Years of history were dumped in less than 10 issues. The glaring
: >continuity gaps have never been filled in. Probably the worst Marvel
: >storyline ever before the clone thing in Spidey (and it ranks up there
: >with the clone think, IMHO)
: I thoroughly enjoyed this storyline by John Byrne. I was only
: disappointed that he didn't get a chance to finish it due to editorial
: interference.
As did I, but knowing how this thread has gone in the past, we're
apparently in the minority. :)
--
------------------------
Cthuludrew, the Great Old One
(aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered college student)
"Actions have consequences."
URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill
Neil Barnes
Pariah (rwhi...@bayou.uh.edu) wrote:
: Michael R. Grabois wrote:
: > So, what were the various comic companies thinking when they came up with
: > (in no particular order):
: > - Hal Jordan had been mentally unstable, and when his hometown of Coast City
: > was destroyed, he went nuts, killing many Green Lanterns and Guardians,
: > before trying to remake the Universe. (Also known as the "Emerald Toilet"
: > debacle).
:
: Eh.. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I don't think it was
: THAT bad. Anyone, even the great Hal Jordan, would become unstable if
: they lost their whole entire hometown (even if he hadn't been there for
: a few years).
Bah. That's simply not true, even for real life people [1], let alone for
Superheroes with unfathomably strong willpower.
I'm not saying that it's not something that affects you for the rest of
your life, but it doesn't cause you to go wibblingly bugfuck & attempt to
kill your best friends.
[1] I mean look at WWII - Coventry, Dresden, Frankfurt, Berlin, Nagasaki &
Hiroshima.
--
neil
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:09:17 GMT, nb4...@ncs.bris.ac.uk (Neil Barnes)
wrote:
>[1] I mean look at WWII - Coventry, Dresden, Frankfurt, Berlin, Nagasaki &
>Hiroshima.
Oh, hell, Coventry didn't get hit THAT hard. Not on a par with
Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki, by any means.
(Other than that nitpick, you're quite right, of course.)
--
TOUCHED BY THE GODS: Hardcover, Tor Books, November 1997, $24.95
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Updated 8/5/97
Bill Svitavsky
The Great and Powerful Danny Sichel (eds...@umoncton.ca) wrote:
: Rabbit wrote:
:
:
: > The biggest one:
: > 1) John Ostrander (a fine writer on Suicide Squad, but...) takes over the reins
: > of the fun-loving Firestorm comic and promptly "kills off" half of the main
: > character. Then he takes the now very serious Ron Raymond and bonds him to a
: > Russian and neither of them control the automaton-like Firestorm.
: Not fair. _Conway_ gave Martin Stein that brain tumour.
: And the automaton _was_ revealed to be Martin's consciousness.
Actually, I really liked that part of Ostrander's run on Firestorm. I missed
Martin Stein, and was glad to see him come back, but I also really enjoyed the
metaphor of Firestorm as a joined American and Russian who had to work
together to use their nuclear power constructively. The Russian guy, whose
name escapes me now, was a good character. Even the events leading up to
Firestorm's rebirth were pretty interesting, with the vigilante attempt at
world disarmament and the bloody battle with the Suicide Squad. (Letting loose
the Parasite in a battle between the Squad, the JLA, and Firestorm was a
memorable debacle.)
Ostrander let me down, though, when the elemental thing came in. Elementals in
Moore's Swamp Thing were fascinating, but Firestorm as elemental just didn't
work. He was THE NUCLEAR MAN, for crying out loud - the whole concept of the
character was fusion. Suddenly we had no nuclear stuff, a second-rate
elemental whose characteristics contradicted what Moore had established, and
even a second-rate John Constantine running around.
Ostrander's strength and his weakness are his unwillingness to let a situation
remain stable. He drastically changed Grimjack twice, even though he had
developed a fine supporting cast and a fascinating situation each time. The
Suicide Squad changed from a government agency to a freelance one with regular
changes to the membership. Ostrander comes up with a lot of good ideas, and
it's always interesting to see his latest ones, but it would be nice to see
some of the really strong ones stick around for more than a couple of years.
The Great and Powerful Danny Sichel
Rabbit wrote:
> > So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
> > of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
> > plain dumb moves. It usually results in such negative backlash that the
> > company often (but not always) reverses itself.
Steven L Cox
>I'm not saying that it's not something that affects you for the rest of
>your life, but it doesn't cause you to go wibblingly bugfuck & attempt to
>kill your best friends.
>
>[1] I mean look at WWII - Coventry, Dresden, Frankfurt, Berlin, Nagasaki &
>Hiroshima.
Just for discussion's sake, there is one considerable difference here
- did any of the survivors in these cases possess a Power Ring? Do
you have any doubt that a Hiroshima survivor, if in possession of a GL
ring, might not find him/herself heading down that slippery slope of
madness?
_______
Steven L Cox
sli...@bev.net
www.questionable.com/~slight
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
A. Travis (amtr...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: I enjoyed it as well. Through this story, Marvel regained the use of
: the android Human Torch. Also, the idea that the Scarlet Witch had two
: kids with a robot always gave me the willies. ---Alan
Especially having kids with a robot that seemingly *has* no willie!
Archetype
There are plenty of examples of individuals wreaking terrible havok over
the loss of their homes. Ever heard of Palestine? Or even still retaining
their homes but losing their ability to rule themselves. Ever heard of
Afghanistan? Or just for plain old revenge for long term disagreements.
Ever heard of Bosnia?
Hal Jordan is just the singular representation of this type of behavior.
Later,
MC
Neil Barnes <nb4...@ncs.bris.ac.uk> wrote in article
<EI7Gz...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>...
> Pariah (rwhi...@bayou.uh.edu) wrote:
> : Michael R. Grabois wrote:
> : > So, what were the various comic companies thinking when they came up
with
> : > (in no particular order):
> :
> : > - Hal Jordan had been mentally unstable, and when his hometown of
Coast City
> : > was destroyed, he went nuts, killing many Green Lanterns and
Guardians,
> : > before trying to remake the Universe. (Also known as the "Emerald
Toilet"
> : > debacle).
> :
> : Eh.. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I don't think it was
> : THAT bad. Anyone, even the great Hal Jordan, would become unstable if
> : they lost their whole entire hometown (even if he hadn't been there for
> : a few years).
>
> Bah. That's simply not true, even for real life people [1], let alone for
> Superheroes with unfathomably strong willpower.
>
> I'm not saying that it's not something that affects you for the rest of
> your life, but it doesn't cause you to go wibblingly bugfuck & attempt to
> kill your best friends.
>
> [1] I mean look at WWII - Coventry, Dresden, Frankfurt, Berlin, Nagasaki
&
> Hiroshima.
>
> --
> neil
>
> chuck...@lsh.org
>
>
Ronny H Arild
[Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
| Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
| slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
I guess you never read "JBNM"?
--
Ronny H Arild - <ron...@stud.cs.uit.no> - http://www.cs.uit.no/~ronnya/
thad a doria
In article <slrn64eubn...@hstud5.cs.uit.no>,
This may stun you, but not everybody who read JBNM automaticaly liked it.
I, for instance, was thoroughly unimpressed.
--
-Thad Doria
Disco Inferno is TV Champ! Discomania running wild!!
JamPM
Ronny H Arild wrote in article ...
>[Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
>| Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
>| slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
>
>I guess you never read "JBNM"?
Again with these "fact" things.
Leave them to their Byrne Bashing.
It's the one thing they all agree on.
Jam
byrne victim and damn proud of it.
Rabbit
Michael R. Grabois wrote:
> So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
> of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
> etc. I don't want to include obvious stunts, but rather just
> plain dumb moves. It usually results in such negative backlash that the
> company often (but not always) reverses itself.
I have several...probably not the normal ones you've heard of, as I'm rather
eclectic.
The biggest one:
1) John Ostrander (a fine writer on Suicide Squad, but...) takes over the reins
of the fun-loving Firestorm comic and promptly "kills off" half of the main
character. Then he takes the now very serious Ron Raymond and bonds him to a
Russian and neither of them control the automaton-like Firestorm. Then he
declares that there's no reason why Ron Raymond and Professor Stein could survive
an explosion in a nuclear reactor but that he's the fire elemental...despite the
fact that a) he/they have the metagene and b) Lorraine Reilly has the exact same
origin and she isn't a fire elemental. Firestorm becomes a rather garish, boring
character...and then, in the hands of another writer, Ron is reduced to an
alcoholic underwear model. And he's being killed off. Goodbye to one of my
faves of the old JLA.
2) Killing off Ice, one of the finest female characters in DC history (About time
there was a modest heroine who didn't want her breasts jutting out of a skintight
outfit!), just for the shock value. As a side mistake, this also pretty much
ruined Guy Gardner's character as well.
3) DC's dumping Tony Isabella from "Black Lightning", the fine comic book he
lovingly created, due (allegedly) to a dispute with the editor.
4) Ruining Hal Jordan in Emerald Toilet. 'Nuff said.
5) Killing off Kilowog in Emerald Toilet. 'Nuff said.
6) Guy Gardner losing his Sinestro ring due to Emerald Toilet, resulting in his
transformation from the leather-clad, moonbooted, bowl-cut character that was
such a hit into Warrior, a mediocre character bearing little resemblence to the
Guy Garder we knew. Also see #2.
7) Justice League America post-Giffen. From Jurgens' decent-but-uneven tenure on
down to the pits (read that as everything after Zero Hour), this comic made
everyone forget that the JLA ever stood for the world's greatest superheroes. I
put this on the "What were they thinking" list because I can't believe that A) a
writer can go for over a year writing for the world's greatest superteam without
one worthwhile issue and B) the biggest and possibly best comics company can let
this happen to one of their strongest assets without demanding a major
improvement in the quality or assigning a new creative team.
8) Peter Parker's Clone saga. 'Nuff said there, too.
--
Read my Metal Men story in the October issue of "Fanzing"
The Independent Internet DC Comics Fan Magazine!!
http://members.aol.com/fanzing
Michael Hutchison <http://www.spacestar.net/users/rabhutch>
Supplemental Web Designer #189 QuikPages 1-612-317-5189
mailto:mhutc...@quikpage.com or mailto:rabh...@spacestar.net
"I have one simple request, and that is to have sharks with frickin'
laserbeams attached to their heads!" --Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"
Jose821
Andrew C. Lannen wrote:
>As for Emerald Toilet, it was horrendous. I refuse to believe
>that everyone would go nuts if their hometown was destroyed.
>Particularly when Hal's entire career had been based on his >mental stability
and enormous willpower. He'd faced worse >things before without snapping like
a swizzle stick. I consider >the last Green Lantern series to have ended at
#47 and refuse to >acknowledge any issues after that. Period.
I find it hard to believe that Hal Jordan faced anything worse than having
everything you care about, everyone you deeply love and about six million
innocent lives obliterated while you were out of town.
If he had, than it musta been one helluva story.
Jose Mochove, Jr.
"We don't ask what you want, we just give what you recieve." -Full Sanction
Andrew C. Lannen
On 18 Oct 1997 00:54:22 GMT, ca...@panix.com (Carl Fink) wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:42:40 -0700, Archetype <cagl...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>Not to build on the Hal Jordan thing more than necessary, but I must
>point out that Coast City was *not* his home or his home town. It was
>just a place he used to live.
>
>Also, as far as I can tell nobody he was close to died there. All his
>friends were specifically *not* killed, Carol Ferris was fine, and his
>brothers never lived there.
>
>I lived in Tampa for two years, but if a hurricane devastated it next
>year I would not go on a homicidal rampage and kill a bunch of my own
>friends.
Oh, sure. Take the cheap shot at Tampa. It's too easy.
Seriously, though, can anyone come up with even a *single* person
that Hal even remotely *knew* that died in Coast City??
--Andrew
Who, after taking crap about the Tampa Bay Bucs for most of the
20 years he lived in Tampa, still gets defensive about his old home.
Ms. Victory
In article <slrn64eubn...@hstud5.cs.uit.no>, ron...@stud.cs.uit.no
wrote:
> [Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
> | Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
> | slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
>
> I guess you never read "JBNM"?
>
Yeah I did. I don't think it was anything close to the quality of his
FF, particularly, say, FF #285, to grab an issue. It was more graphic
than his other work, but sex and violence have stopped impressing me.
Ms. Victory
In article <62860o$4qc8$1...@newssvr08-int.news.prodigy.com>, "JamPM"
<ja...@prodgy.net> wrote:
> Ronny H Arild wrote in article ...
>
> >[Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
> >| Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
> >| slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
> >
> >I guess you never read "JBNM"?
>
> Again with these "fact" things.
> Leave them to their Byrne Bashing.
>
You, my friend, have an interesting definition of fact. But if you'd
like to discuss whether JBNM was better or worse than Byrne's FF, hey,
I'll do it, I own and have read and reread every issue of both. I think
I'm qualified to at least have an opinion on this subject. If this meets
your painstaking requirements for facticity, of course.;)
sequoia swennes
Kevin Chang wrote:
>
> sj...@idt.net (Ms. Victory) wrote:
> >In article <slrn64eubn...@hstud5.cs.uit.no>,
> >ron...@stud.cs.uit.no wrote:
> >
> >>
> >of his FF, particularly, say, FF #285, to grab an issue.
> Still, nothing of his original work has ever impressed me as much
> as his work on FF. When I'm in the mood to defend Byrne, this is
> most often what I think of.
Could someone please tell me which issues of FF Byrne did? I'm on a
back issue hunt :)
Sequoia
Mikel Midnight
> A. Travis (amtr...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
> : I enjoyed it as well. Through this story, Marvel regained the use of
> : the android Human Torch. Also, the idea that the Scarlet Witch had two
> : kids with a robot always gave me the willies. ---Alan
>
> Especially having kids with a robot that seemingly *has* no willie!
The Vision's willielessness was established by the same creator who
established that Wanda didn't have any real children. Prior to that Byrne
cretin, if we act on the assumption that the Vision had the Human Torch's
body ... Human Torch had donated blood to someone, no reason he shouldn't
be able to mimic other human ... ah ... exchanges of fluids ...
particularly given a boost from a certain partner's probability-altering
powers ...
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel Midnight
(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
blak...@best.com
__________________________________________________http://www.best.com/~blaklion
Andrew Bates
Steven L Cox wrote:
>
> Neil Barnes wrote:
>
> >I'm not saying that it's not something that affects you for the rest of
> >your life, but it doesn't cause you to go wibblingly bugfuck & attempt to
> >kill your best friends.
> >
> >[1] I mean look at WWII - Coventry, Dresden, Frankfurt, Berlin, Nagasaki &
> >Hiroshima.
>
> - did any of the survivors in these cases possess a Power Ring? Do
> you have any doubt that a Hiroshima survivor, if in possession of a GL
> ring, might not find him/herself heading down that slippery slope of
> madness?
Discussion? Count me in!
You're correct in that those places didn't have a Green Lantern in
residence; that can certainly put a new wrinkle on things. The
destruction of Coast City would have a devastating effect on anyone with
ties to the place, much like the cities mentioned above.
Here's the problem I have with the entire "Hal loses his mind and goes
on a rampage through the Corps, killing his friends and colleagues and
generally being a total nutcase":
A Green Lantern ring's power was really only limited by the wielder's
force of will. The stronger your will, the greater your resolve, the
more powerful and effective the ring became.
The entire premise behind Hal Jordan -- the core around which the rest
of the character was built, if you will -- is that he had one of the
strongest wills in the entire DC universe. Hal was recognized multiple
times during his tenure in the Corps as being one of the greatest Green
Lanterns in history. His resolve was near-legendary. So we have a man
with the psychological fortitude to carry on in the face of the most
dire of circumstances.
I find it hard to believe -- no, let me correct myself. I find it
implausible and contrived *in the extreme* that such a man would be
driven insane with grief to the extent displayed in that ridiculous
storyline. As I read that dreck I thought, "This isn't Hal Jordan. Who's
impersonating Hal Jordan? When's Hal going to show up and kick this
guy's ass?" The only conclusion I could reach after subjecting myself to
that "event" was that the Powers That Be had lost sight of what the
character of Hal Jordan was truly about.
(I have much a similar opinion on the Spider-Man Clone Saga, when Peter
Parker, having faced incredible adversity through the years -- always
with jokes and a positive attitude -- becomes the grim-and-gritty
"Spider." The *idea* of the Clone Saga wasn't necessarily a bad one, but
it was handled with breathtakingly poor scripting and a serious lack of
understanding what made Peter Parker, the Amazing Spider-Man, who he
was.)
Bates
________________________________________
Andrew Bates
Aeon Developer
aba...@white-wolf.com
White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
www.white-wolf.com
Ms. Victory
> Could someone please tell me which issues of FF Byrne did? I'm on a
> back issue hunt :)
>
He drew some issue before, and his plots flowed into a few issues
afterward, but his run as writer/penciller which recieves so much acclaim
(and likely rightly so), was from #232-293.
sequoia swennes
Thanks.
Sequoia
Henry Spencer
In article <3447d2ce...@news.vt.edu>,
Steven L Cox <sli...@bev.net> wrote:
>- did any of the survivors in these cases possess a Power Ring? Do
>you have any doubt that a Hiroshima survivor, if in possession of a GL
>ring, might not find him/herself heading down that slippery slope of
>madness?
Well, yes, I do have doubts about this, actually. Hal Jordan in particular
is not Joe Random Survivor -- he was supposed to have been picked for his
mental qualities. And it's not as if he lost loved ones, either.
--
If NT is the answer, you didn't | Henry Spencer
understand the question. -- Peter Blake | he...@zoo.toronto.edu
Robin
In article <3448BF...@erols.com>,
sequoia swennes <swe...@erols.com> wrote:
>Could someone please tell me which issues of FF Byrne did? I'm on a
>back issue hunt :)
If I remember rightly Byrne did:
Fantastic Four #209-218, 232-293 and Annuals #17-19
Wonderful comics, I hope you find them.
Robin.
Tom Galloway
In article <B06EBF46...@0.0.0.0> Robin Ri...@dial.pipex.com (Robin Riggs) writes:
>In article <3448BF...@erols.com>,
>sequoia swennes <swe...@erols.com> wrote:
>>Could someone please tell me which issues of FF Byrne did? I'm on a
>>back issue hunt :)
> If I remember rightly Byrne did:
>Fantastic Four #209-218, 232-293 and Annuals #17-19
Should be noted that the first run was art only, with I believe Marv
Wolfman writing.
Followups to rac.marvel.universe only.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Jason Fliegel
In article <3448BF...@erols.com>,
sequoia swennes <swe...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>Could someone please tell me which issues of FF Byrne did? I'm on a
>back issue hunt :)
>
For that matter, could someone provide issue numbers for:
Englehart/Rogers Detective Comics
Simonson Thor
Stern's Avengers, particularly the Masters of Evil Storyline
Are there any other classics from the late 70s/early 80s without which no
collection is complete?
And a related question: in the early 80s, DC and Marvel did some reprints
of some of their stuff from the late 60s/early 70s. The ones I know of
are:
*Warlock 1-6 -- Baxter reprint series of Starlin's Warlock run from the
early 80s (reprinted again a few years ago in the wake of the Infinity ad
nauseum limited serieses)
*Life of Captain Marvel 1-5 -- Another fine reprint series, this time of
Starlin's Captain Marvel Stuff
*Manhunter -- One shot Baxter reprint of Goodwin & Simonson's Manhunter
series from Detective Comics in the early 70s.
*Kree-Skrull War -- Two (?) issue Baxter reprint series of Roy Thomas's
Avengers Space Epic.
Are there any others in the same vein? Are they worth seeking out?
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
2L, University of Chicago Law School
her...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <3447972e...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael R. Grabois) wrote:
>
>
> So, what were the various comic companies thinking when they came up with
> (in no particular order):
Be warned, I'll probably be repeating what has been mentioned more than
once.
> - Tony Stark is really a pawn of Kang. When he turns evil he's killed,
> but a young counterpart assumes the mantle of Iron Man. (Also known as
> the "Iron Boy" debacle)
Yup
> - Peter Parker was really the clone for the last 20 years, and the real Peter
> was roaming the country. (Also known as the "Clone Saga" debacle)
I thing this is closer to 'What Were They Smoking'
>
> - Hal Jordan had been mentally unstable, and when his hometown of Coast City
> was destroyed, he went nuts, killing many Green Lanterns and Guardians,
> before trying to remake the Universe. (Also known as the "Emerald Toilet"
> debacle).
Now I can accept (with some reservation) Jordan snapping in some way or
another over Coast City, and even handing over his ring to someone (I'd
be amused if it were Ollie, Carol, or Lois). What I categorically
_cannot_ accept is his wanton distruction of the entire Green Lantern
Corps, including the maiming and killing many of his surviving other
friends.
> - The Legion of Super-Heroes, formerly a group of teens and young adults in
> a utopian future, turned grim-n-gritty in a future now very much dystopic.
> (Also known as the V4 debacle, though this has many strong fans)
Including me, so watch it pal.
> Any others?
You asked for it...
Onslut, no explination needed
Most of what has happened in the X-Men since about oh... UXM #278 (chief
among these are the Gambit/Rogue match, several relationships tossed
aside or forgotten, Storm's semi-lobotomy, Cannonball's full lobotomy and
emasculation, Magneto's madness and subsequent emasculation/mindwipe, the
MURDERS of Illyana and Rachel, whatever the frag they did to Logan, the
Legacy Virus, X-Factor under Mackie, You Get The Idea....)
Tossing Chichester off Daredevil, Loebs off Wonder Woman, Kaminski off
Iron Man (soon to become Iron Boy), Fabian off New Warriors (the eventual
cancellation was all but a mercy killing), Waid off Captain America, and
Claremont off X-Men.
Canceling Outsiders (AUUUGGHHHH!!!!)
Canceling Scare Tactics (AUUUGGHHHH^2!!!!!)
Cancelling Warren Ellis' Satana _sight_ _unseen_!!!
(AUUUGGHHHH^AUUUGGHHHH!!!!!)
That... _thing_ that has been masquerading as the Teen Titans title, not
to mention the aftermath of the Titans' Hunt storyline (YOU KILLED
RAVEN!! YURASAI YO!!!!)
Replacing Simonson after a definitive tenure on The Mighty Thor... with
DeFalco.
Letting 501 plot _anything_!
HTG (I'm sure I'll think of more later)
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Bard Sinister
Jason Fliegel wrote:
> And a related question: in the early 80s, DC and Marvel did some reprints
> of some of their stuff from the late 60s/early 70s. The ones I know of
> are:
(List Snipped)
> Are there any others in the same vein? Are they worth seeking out?
Yes and Yes.
DC did reprints of Neal Adams' Deadman run, and Kirby's New Gods
series.
Marvel reprinted most of the Thomas-Adams run on the X-Men, and
some of Steranko's work on Captain America and Nick Fury.
Side note: would anybody else like to see Marvel do a 'Complete
Jim Steranko' collection? It would only run a little over 400 pages,
and be great reading. I'm almost done grabbing the originals, but it
would still be a book I would grab in a heartbeat.
Eric Gimlin
Archetype
I tend to agree with you. My favorite run of comics since I started
collecting (around 20 to 23 years ago) was the Byrne FF. My favorite
issues were 257 and 258. Those are the issues where Galactus debates with
Death before destroying the Skrull homeworld and the "day in the life" of
Dr. Doom.
IMHO, the only time since that Byrne has reached those levels were with
Danger Unlimited. Of course DU was nothing more than an altered version of
the FF.
Later,
MC
Toby Latin
> So what I'm looking for here is to see what the readers here think were some
> of the all-time bonehead maneuvers in terms of creative teams, storylines,
> Azrael or turning Superman into an electricity-based hero, both of which
> were/are storylines that are designed to make us see the lead character
> differently when he finally returns, whole and healed), but rather just
> plain dumb moves. It usually results in such negative backlash that the
> company often (but not always) reverses itself.
>
Franklin Richards, various and sundry incarnations ZZZZZZZZZZZ
Not so much the apparent of death of Reed Richards, and Dr. Doom but the
pointless wandering around afterward while Sue squeezed herself into
skimpier and skimpier costumes. No wonder they did hard time in the
blue ball.
Mary
Lowell Silverstein
Peter Judge wrote:
> >- Peter Parker was really the clone for the last 20 years, and the real Peter
> > was roaming the country. (Also known as the "Clone Saga" debacle)
> >
> God! Did they really do that? I've not read Spiderman for twenty years.
> I'd heard about the Clone garbage, but that.... well... I'm breathtaken.
>
> --
> Peter Judge
No, they didn't. They said that at first, and then changed they're minds at the
end, and told us that it actually was the real Peter.
--
Loudmouth aka Lowell Silverstein: Mutant college student with the power
to raise the volume of his voice to completely annoying levels!
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~silverst/silverst.html
zen and the art of damonance
Ms. Victory wrote:
>
> In article <slrn64eubn...@hstud5.cs.uit.no>, ron...@stud.cs.uit.no
> wrote:
>
> > [Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
> > | Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
> > | slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
> >
> >
> Yeah I did. I don't think it was anything close to the quality of his
> than his other work, but sex and violence have stopped impressing me.
not me!
give me sex or violence any day.
i'd prefer sex, tho.
i think byrne peaked in synergy with claremon.t
his ff run started out strong and got weaker
and weaker.
and in retrospect, i really didn't like the first 3 next men books.
--
'Do you believe in ghosts?' "No...they are unscientific...They
contain no matter, and have no energy, and therefore, according
to the laws of science, do not exist except in people's minds...
Of course, the laws of science contain no matter and energy and
therefore do not exist except in people's minds. It's best to be
completely scientific about the whole thing and refuse to believe
in either ghosts or the laws of science." Robert Pirsig.
Henry Spencer
In article <century-1910...@dialup50.wr.com.au>,
Peter Likidis <cen...@wr.com.au.spamblock> wrote:
>> Bringing back Jean Grey surely has to qualify for this list.
>
>which time??
The capsule-at-the-bottom-of-the-bay garbage. Note that for all John
Byrne's sins, he too balked at that one -- the issue of FF where the
capsule is found does not bear his name, even though it was his work.
Madelyne Pryor (sp?) I reserve judgement on, because I don't think I've
ever heard just what Claremont had in mind for her before editorial
meddling ruined her. There was clearly some connection from the hints
he dropped, but it doesn't seem to have been anything as straightforward
as a straight revival of the character.
Rokkit
On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:06:30 -0400, Andrew Bates
<aba...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>I assume that by "you," you are referring to those who bash Kyle? Just
>to be clear, my commentary was on the injustice I felt was done to the
>character of Hal Jordan. I never once mentioned the new Green Lantern. I
>like Kyle just fine; I just happen to like Hal infinitely better.*
>
>Bates
Yes, that's what I was referring to; sorry for the confusion.
Rokkit
Ronny H Arild
[Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
| In article <slrn64eubn...@hstud5.cs.uit.no>, ron...@stud.cs.uit.no
| wrote:
|
| > [Ms. Victory <sj...@idt.net>]
| > | Or even a comics creator who peaked in 1984 and has been on a downhill
| > | slide ever since leaving the FF.;)
| >
| > I guess you never read "JBNM"?
| >
| Yeah I did. I don't think it was anything close to the quality of his
| FF, particularly, say, FF #285, to grab an issue. It was more graphic
| than his other work, but sex and violence have stopped impressing me.
Hey, I couldn't agree more with that. It's the "downhill slide ever
since leaving the FF" I disagree with.
Michael Lehmeier t771202
Henry Spencer (he...@zoo.toronto.edu) wrote:
> In article <century-1910...@dialup50.wr.com.au>,
> Peter Likidis <cen...@wr.com.au.spamblock> wrote:
> >> Bringing back Jean Grey surely has to qualify for this list.
> >
> >which time??
> The capsule-at-the-bottom-of-the-bay garbage. Note that for all John
> Byrne's sins, he too balked at that one -- the issue of FF where the
> capsule is found does not bear his name, even though it was his work.
Are you sure that this was his idea? I thought that there was this
editorial decision to bring Jean back to life in order to be able to
found X-Factor. And the "capsule-at-the-bottom-of-the-bay garbage"
is as good an explanation as any. It was the editorial involvement
that sucked, not the way they handled it.
But even that wasn't the desaster. What really pissed me off was the
way that she and other involved characters (like Madelyne, Nathan and
ultimately Rachel) were used to retcon and reretcon dangling plotlines
for the current writers' convience that ended up in an unbelievable
(and boring) mess.
--
The Nightshade Dragon -==(UDIC)==-
http://rphc1.physik.uni-regensburg.de/~lem11441/
Lehmeier Michael (Michael....@stud.uni-regensburg.de)
The Last Unicorn - Ghost in the Shell - The Secret of Nimh
Nausicaa - Felidae - Aeon Flux - I HATE DISNEY !!!!
Peter Judge
>Jason Fliegel wrote:
>> And a related question: in the early 80s, DC and Marvel did some reprints
>> of some of their stuff from the late 60s/early 70s. The ones I know of
>> are:
>
>(List Snipped)
>
>> Are there any others in the same vein? Are they worth seeking out?
>
>Yes and Yes.
>
> DC did reprints of Neal Adams' Deadman run, and Kirby's New Gods
>series.
DC also reprinted the O'Neill-Adams Green Lantern Green Arrow series.
--
Peter Judge
Tom Galloway
In article <EIBAzu.KCo%spen...@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer <he...@zoo.toronto.edu> writes:
>The capsule-at-the-bottom-of-the-bay garbage. Note that for all John
>Byrne's sins, he too balked at that one -- the issue of FF where the
>capsule is found does not bear his name, even though it was his work.
Nope. That's not the reason Byrne's name isn't on the issue. From a post
last year by Kurt Busiek, who came up with the Jean in the bay idea
(FAQkeepers take note):
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The idea that Jean and Phoenix were two separate beings was planted
by Chris, late in the Phoenix saga -- he made a reference to it in a
caption or two, as I recall.
Back when the death issue occurred, I wasn't yet a pro, and a couple
of friends (Richard Howell and Carol Kalish) and I spent an evening of
fannish amusement coming up with ways to resurrect Jean that ducked the
rumored Shooter-edict that Jean couldn't be brought back unless she
was somehow made not guilty of her crimes. My idea built around Chris's
hints and rested on the concept that Phoenix was not Jean but the
Phoenix-entity's _copy_ of Jean, a copy that grew more distorted the
further it got from the living "lens" it was being projected through;
Jean, in suspended animation on the harbor floor.
Later, after I'd broken in, I was chatting with Roger Stern, and the
talk turned to Jean. Roger mentioned that he'd love to see her back,
but there was no way around the Shooter edict (which was more than
rumor, it seems). I told him my idea, and he liked it a lot.
Jump ahead to years later; Bob Layton, with some help from Jim Shooter,
has come up with a pitch for X-FACTOR, one which does not include Jean,
because she's dead. However, upon hearing about it, John Byrne calls
Bob and suggests my resurrection concept, which he'd heard about through
Roger. Far from disagreeing with it, it was John who was the first to
suggest making it more than my idle imaginings. Bob liked the idea,
and apparently so did Shooter and X-FACTOR editor Mike Carlin, because
it was approved, and John, Bob and Roger cooked up the 3-part return
of Jean story that appeared in AVENGERS, FF and X-FACTOR.
By this time, I was working as an assistant editor on MARVEL AGE, and
the first I heard that my idea was being used was when Bob Layton
sidled up to me in Production and said, "Hey, I hear I have you to
thank for getting Jean back!" I had no idea what he was talking
about, but after talking to Roger that night, I caught up. I got
paid (and well, by standards of the time) for the use of my concept,
and even credited in the FF issue (though my name was misspelled).
I did end up editing a bunch of interviews with Roger, Bob and John,
and carefully blacking out all the references to Jean, since it was
a Big Secret. But it was nice to see everyone crediting the concept
to me, even if I blacked out a lot of it...
I believe John's objection to that issue was not to the resurrection
of Jean, but to some rewrites and re-drawings that were done after
he turned his part of the story in.
So that's the story. It wasn't Shooter's decree. It wasn't Bob Layton's
idea. It was a fan-generated idea, based on what I saw as contextual
evidence that supported it, that grew beyond its original parameters,
and got made into reality when John Byrne suggested actually doing it,
and the Powers That Be went for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Followups set to rac.marvel.universe/xbooks
tyg t...@netcom.com
Kevin J. Maroney
sequoia swennes <swe...@erols.com> wrote:
>Could someone please tell me which issues of FF Byrne did? I'm on a
>back issue hunt :)
He did issues 1-100, although they were labelled something else on the
covers.
Happy to help.
Note redirect to r.a.c.m.u.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmar...@crossover.com
"There is a better world. There has to be."--Kay Challis
Andrew Ducker
In article <WBYCmLAQ...@pjudge.demon.co.uk>, Peter Judge
<pe...@pjudge.demon.co.uk> writes
>> DC did reprints of Neal Adams' Deadman run, and Kirby's New Gods
>>series.
Speaking of which, New Gods TP due out in a couple of months!
Samael
--
Home: sam...@dial.pipex.com
Work: and...@irw-associates.demon.co.uk
WildCard
In article <344AB9A2...@wam.umd.edu>,
Lowell Silverstein <silv...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>Peter Judge wrote:
>> >- Peter Parker was really the clone for the last 20 years, and the real Peter
>> > was roaming the country. (Also known as the "Clone Saga" debacle)
I *liked* the idea of the clone coming back after all this time. I
even liked the "Peter we know is the clone" complication. What I
didn't like was how long Marvel dragged the story out. Didn't this
six month storyline end up taking over three years to actually come to
an end? MUCH too long!
>> God! Did they really do that? I've not read Spiderman for twenty years.
>> I'd heard about the Clone garbage, but that.... well... I'm breathtaken.
Again, the *concept* was excellent, it was the execution of it that stunk.
WildCard
--
_ __ _ __ | I see the girls walk by dressed in
' ) / // / / ) / | their summer clothes, I have to turn
/ / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ | my head until my darkness goes...
(_(_/ <_</_(_/ (__/ (_/|_/ (_(_/_ | (wild...@io.com)