Repairing the damage
Johnny1A
screwed up almost beyond use by the events of X-Factor #1.
Supposedly, later work such as Inferno was a deliberate attempt to
repair the damage done so swiftly in X-Factor 1.
Inferno, for example, was supposed to be a means of repairing the
damage to the Cyclops character. If so, it was an odd way to do it.
At the end of Inferno, I'll grant that Cyke's actions become a shade
more understandable, but it still doesn't do anything to actually
repair the character's character [sorry about that :-)].
Let's have some fun. Suppose Marvel Comics hired _you_ tomorrow to
begin writing to repair the harm that's been done to the xbooks since
the days when they were still recognizable. Can you find a way to
redeem Scott Summers, undo the sheer _disaster_ that the Dark Phoenix
Saga was reduced to by later writers,
transform Ororo back into herself again?
If you _like_ the changes in the more recent years of Marvel, fine.
This thread is a discussion, (I hope) of ways to fix what the less
than happy fans think went wrong.
If anyone decides to take up this challenge, remember the point is
not just to point out the problems, but to suggest solutions,
retconned or otherwise.
Polaris
Johnny1A wrote:
> Can you find a way to redeem Scott Summers
I wouldn't have. His actions, as asshole-ish as they may be, lend more
depth to Cyclops' character.
--
Polaris
--
Legend says only virgins can see unicorns. You pretend you can't see it.
John B 821
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) writes:
> Let's have some fun. Suppose Marvel Comics hired _you_ tomorrow to
>begin writing to repair the harm that's been done to the xbooks since
>the days when they were still recognizable. Can you find a way to
>redeem Scott Summers,
whatever anyone could hate him for, that it doesn't matter. Being
sublet by a supervillian will do that to you.
>undo the sheer _disaster_ that the Dark Phoenix
>Saga was reduced to by later writers,
I'd let the storyline in Exiles show the way it should have happened.
>transform Ororo back into herself again?
I'd put her in a book written by Claremont, and tell the editors to stand back.
> If you _like_ the changes in the more recent years of Marvel, fine.
What they're doing in more recent months seems to be a good approach.
Recent years, maybe not.
>This thread is a discussion, (I hope) of ways to fix what the less
>than happy fans think went wrong.
The MC2 line seemed to do a good job of fixing stupid mistakes.
Do you hate that they took away Spider-Man's baby and split up
his marriage? In MC2, they're a family.
Did you think they could have done more with Ben Reilly instead
of wiping him off the slate at the end of the clone mess? In MC2,
they did (sort of).
Do you hate that Johnny Storm doesn't acknowledge the Skrull
he was married to? In MC2, they're still together.
Do you hate that Jubilee kept complaining about having been an
X-Man and stuck on the kids team, and want her to be an X-Man
again now that the kids team is gone? In MC2, she's the boss.
Do you think Wolverine should get over Jean and settle down
with someone else and raise a family? In MC2, he did.
Judging by how few of the MC2 concepts sold well enough,
I'd guess that there aren't enough disgruntled fans for Marvel
to bother trying to appease them.
Sailor Star Kitsune
so much of the X titles became such a mess (and half of them I couldnt follow
because I didnt have the money at the time O-O*) And I would bring back Pyro
because I always thought he was nifty : )
Sailor Star Kitsune the Uncola
A witches advice: Practice safe hex.
"Everybody is a Book of Blood;
Wherever we're opened,
we're red." -Clive Barker Books of Blood
1 Miyax Point : )
Brian Doyle
"Sailor Star Kitsune" <wild...@aol.comnononoNO> wrote in message
news:20010805113743...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> Id do an age of apocalypse type thing, just hit the bloody reset button because
> so much of the X titles became such a mess
Yeah, "Xero Hour", that'd sell :)
Bring back Doug too (I know, I know, "Give it a rest, Brian...")
Johnny1A
> Johnny1A wrote:
>
> > Can you find a way to redeem Scott Summers
>
> I wouldn't have. His actions, as asshole-ish as they may be, lend more
> depth to Cyclops' character.
>
> --
> Polaris
That may be true. There are two ways to look at the 'problem' of
what they did with Scott. Some would say that Scott was too much of a
goody-goody before, and is more believable after the Mess. I can
grant that, though I don't agree.
The other problem is continuity. In what I consider the glory days
of the xbooks (or just the xbook, back then), Scott had a distinct
personality, and it wasn't as flat as it's often portrayed. Claremont
had been deepening and exploring _all_ the personalities of the
characters. Scott, as he was being written at the best time, wasn't
entirely a goody-goody, but he was basically honorable. His actions
in X-Factor #1 and immediately afterward are not just asshole-ish,
they seem _utterly_ unlike his previous behavior.
It's not just his morals. It's his brain. Compare the reactions of
Scott in X-Men 150 to X-Factor #1. When Magneto was ready to impose
his rule on the world, and in a good position to do it, Scott
immediately saw through to the problems, and the ways the plan would
go wrong. In X-Factor #1, Cameron Hodge presents an _utterly_
preposterous plan, and Scott doesn't even seem to register how silly
it is. 'Redeeming' Scott partly means explaining why he was suddenly
behaving as if he had the brains of cream cheese. Inferno does not
cover it.
To give critics of Scott an idea of why his fans are annoyed by
these stories, let me give you an imaginary story line. Suppose one
day an issue of some xbook comes out, and in it Logan turns out to
have been a secret crossdresser all these years in a retcon, and it
develops that Kitty Pryde is a Skrull!
I think the reaction of the fans of both characters would be less
anger than sheer dumbfounded amazement. It would be something like,
"Have the writers/editors gone mad?"
To 'redeem' Scott, I don't automatically mean that he has to turn
out to have been completely innocent, but at least I'd like to see
some plausible explanation for the sudden change. Remember, according
to the Mess retcons, we're supposed to believe that Scott never loved
Maddie, and was going through the motions. But if you look at the
issues right up to X-Factor #1, it certainly looks like a convincing
set of motions.
There are other characters who, IMHO, were also thrown out of step
by the Mess, just not so bad as Scott, Madelyne, and Jean. Compare
Wolverine of the glory days to what came in the aftermath of X-Factor
#1. He went from being edgy and dangerous to a flaming annoying
jackass for a while, in my opinion. He called _everyone_ 'kid',
treated _everyone_ as if they were an idiot, and he himself showed a
remarkable lack of sense.
Ororo suddenly gets this brilliant idea of letting everyone think
the X-men were dead. But at the same time, it never _occurs_ to her
that their loved ones would be torn apart? If it did, I don't recall
her ever mentioning it. That sort of insensitivity and lack of
intelligence is radically out of character for Ororo, even in the
aftermath of the Mutant Massacre.
There are other examples. At one time or another, the Mess burned
all the characters at least a little. That's why I think the question
of fixing it is worth a moment's thought.
Shermanlee
John B 821
<brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>> Id do an age of apocalypse type thing, just hit the bloody reset button
>because
>> so much of the X titles became such a mess
>
>Yeah, "Xero Hour", that'd sell :)
Priest fans would buy it.
Andrew Ness
"Johnny1A" <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b3030854.01080...@posting.google.com...
I think the first thing you have to do is read through all the old issues.
The second thing you have to do is throw them all out. Forget about them and
concentrate on telling stories that you want to tell. Find what it is about
the X-Men premise that makes you want to write X-Men stories in the first
place and go from there.
What I would not do under any circumstances is start mucking about in other
people's mess. Jean should have died once and for all on the moon. Perhaps,
but it has now been well established that she didn't. Trying to contrive
some explanation of how she really did die on the moon after all would lead
to a horrendous story that would stretch the whole thing too far.
Cyclops leaving Maddie for Jean was the first non-heroic thing he did. You
can play with that, but don't try to change it. You can't justify it,
because essentially it was a human response from someone who is usually
portrayed as morally unimpeachable (although not lately...) Rather than say
he was being mind controlled or some bobbins why not just say that, yes, he
is human after all. He is capable of doing the dirty. Does that make him
more or less of a hero?
To answer your question more directly, I think a return to first principles
would be a good move. There's a lot of chat about the anti-mutant sentiment.
Of course, this is the raison d'etre of the whole concept, you can't just
dispose of it. It would be worth getting some idea of exactly what the
situation is, since the prevalance of anti-mutant hysteria seems to be
widely variable (apparently even more so in the new X-Force)
I think you'd want to have Professor X going back to his dream, and his
idea, by finding and helping new young mutants. The older X-Men can deal
with the 'evil' mutants and Sentinels or whatever.
In short, pretty much what Morrison seems to be doing.
NSY
Billy Bissette
sherm...@hotmail.com says...
<snip talkin' bout Cyclops>
> It's not just his morals. It's his brain. Compare the reactions of
> Scott in X-Men 150 to X-Factor #1.
I've never really liked Cyclops. But I do remember liking him
less at times than others... Cream-cheese-for-brains Scott is
the biggest problem I've had with him. The second biggest problem
is when writers tried to fix the brains of cream cheese issues by
removing or grafting personality traits upon him instead of
developing him naturally. Which describes the majority of Cyclop's
existance post-early-Claremont IMO.
> To give critics of Scott an idea of why his fans are annoyed by
> these stories, let me give you an imaginary story line. Suppose one
> day an issue of some xbook comes out, and in it Logan turns out to
> have been a secret crossdresser all these years in a retcon, and it
> develops that Kitty Pryde is a Skrull!
You mean as opposed to Wolverine being a Skrull!?
Though everyone knows in the case of Wolverine that 'everything you
know is wrong' happens around once a year. Give him a few years, and
wait for cross dressing to become popular, and you'll probably get
the Logan reference above. Because Marvel always delivers what its
fans want in Logan. :p
Jim Longo
> Though everyone knows in the case of Wolverine that 'everything you
> know is wrong' happens around once a year. Give him a few years, and
> wait for cross dressing to become popular, and you'll probably get
> the Logan reference above. Because Marvel always delivers what its
> fans want in Logan. :p
Last time I checked (and it was a while ago), the X-Men were based in
the New York area. New York is arguably the drag capital of the
Eastern Seaboard. If Logan was going to turn into Bambi Sue
Brickowski, he would have done it years ago.
J.
Will I. Noya
Brian Doyle wrote:
I agree, but only a well written Doug. Of course, he'd have to be
as far away from Simonson as possible (you know, because she
destroyed the character and all that).
--Will
The_Bee
> > If anyone decides to take up this challenge, remember the point is
> > not just to point out the problems, but to suggest solutions,
> > retconned or otherwise.
> Cyclops leaving Maddie for Jean was the first non-heroic thing he did. You
> can play with that, but don't try to change it. You can't justify it, > because essentially it was a human response from someone who is usually
> portrayed as morally unimpeachable (although not lately...) Rather than say
> he was being mind controlled or some bobbins why not just say that, yes, he
> is human after all. He is capable of doing the dirty.
Too late. Marvel tried to justify Scott's misdeeds years ago. They
also declared he'd been mind-controlled. In X-Factor #38, as Maddie
lay dead, Jean told Scott, "you mustn't blame yourself. It's not your
fault." Ms. Grey ignored Scott's actual guilt for abandoning his wife
and child; but in X-Factor #39 Warren absolved Scott of even that
misdeed by saying Mr. Sinister made him do it.
The Infernal retcon even implied that Maddie deserved to be abandoned
because
she'd been evil all along, and that she didn't count because she was a
clone. By the time of "Fathers & Sons" (Cable #6-8) Scott had
convinced himself that "Maddie was a lie"; and her own son believed
that "she wasn't even a real person."
Marvel should at least make Scott admit, "It doesn't matter whether
Maddie was
a clone or not. She was a real person with real feelings, and I did
her wrong."
More important, I want Marvel to show that Maddie wasn't in the
pilot's seat when the Goblin Queen was in control. Let Maddie's ghost
describe the horrror of being trapped inside her own head while a
demon with her face prepared to murder her baby. Let her recall her
one desperate effort, when the shattering of the forcefield distracted
the Goblin Queen, to hurl her child away from the monster's clutches.
The only retcon needed is a reinterpretation of one panel and an
admission of one obvious fact: If the Goblin Queen had held onto the
boy, she could have killed him before any of the mutants could have
stopped her. Not a word of the original need be changed. Simply
reveal what was really going through the mother's mind in that crucial
split second.
Then, with Maddie's willing consent, put her spirit in an infant body.
Place her with a loving, nurturing family and let her grow up the
normal way--one day at a time.
> To answer your question more directly, I think a return to first principles
> would be a good move. There's a lot of chat about the anti-mutant sentiment.
> Of course, this is the raison d'etre of the whole concept, you can't just
> dispose of it. It would be worth getting some idea of exactly what the
> situation is, since the prevalance of anti-mutant hysteria seems to be
> widely variable (apparently even more so in the new X-Force)
IMHO the X-books need more ordinary humans who aren't ruled by
prejudice.
> I think you'd want to have Professor X going back to his dream, and his
> idea, by finding and helping new young mutants.
Only if he doesn't repeat his mistake of isolating them from ordinary
people,thereby fostering anti-mutant suspicion, fear and hatred.
Justin Samuels
The_Bee wrote:
> "Andrew Ness" <ne...@liverpoolfc.net> wrote in message news:<9kke1d$vqk$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>>"Johnny1A" <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:b3030854.01080...@posting.google.com...
>>
>
>>> If anyone decides to take up this challenge, remember the point is
>>>not just to point out the problems, but to suggest solutions,
>>>retconned or otherwise.
>>>
>
>>Cyclops leaving Maddie for Jean was the first non-heroic thing he did. You
>>can play with that, but don't try to change it. You can't justify it, > because essentially it was a human response from someone who is usually
>>portrayed as morally unimpeachable (although not lately...) Rather than say
>>he was being mind controlled or some bobbins why not just say that, yes, he
>>is human after all. He is capable of doing the dirty.
>>
>
> Too late. Marvel tried to justify Scott's misdeeds years ago. They
> also declared he'd been mind-controlled. In X-Factor #38, as Maddie
> lay dead, Jean told Scott, "you mustn't blame yourself. It's not your
> fault." Ms. Grey ignored Scott's actual guilt for abandoning his wife
> and child; but in X-Factor #39 Warren absolved Scott of even that
> misdeed by saying Mr. Sinister made him do it.
>
> The Infernal retcon even implied that Maddie deserved to be abandoned
> because
> she'd been evil all along, and that she didn't count because she was a
> clone. By the time of "Fathers & Sons" (Cable #6-8) Scott had
> convinced himself that "Maddie was a lie"; and her own son believed
> that "she wasn't even a real person."
Cable never said that. He punched the demon Sym out for saying that
about his mother. Cable said Madelye was manipulated until she had a
loss of identity.
>
> Marvel should at least make Scott admit, "It doesn't matter whether
> Maddie was
> a clone or not. She was a real person with real feelings, and I did
> her wrong."
>
> More important, I want Marvel to show that Maddie wasn't in the
> pilot's seat when the Goblin Queen was in control. Let Maddie's ghost
> describe the horrror of being trapped inside her own head while a
> demon with her face prepared to murder her baby. Let her recall her
> one desperate effort, when the shattering of the forcefield distracted
> the Goblin Queen, to hurl her child away from the monster's clutches.
>
> The only retcon needed is a reinterpretation of one panel and an
> admission of one obvious fact: If the Goblin Queen had held onto the
> boy, she could have killed him before any of the mutants could have
> stopped her. Not a word of the original need be changed. Simply
> reveal what was really going through the mother's mind in that crucial
> split second.
>
> Then, with Maddie's willing consent, put her spirit in an infant body.
> Place her with a loving, nurturing family and let her grow up the
> normal way--one day at a time.
Why even bother? Queen Jean replaced Madelyne. I don't think anyone at
Marvel is going ot revisit inferno, even if we do see Maddie again. And
suspect we won't for quite sometime. If we do, we will most likely see
her back as a villain.
Also want Steven Grant said on this forum is irrelevant, it isn't
established in the comics themselves . Another writer may decide that so
called ghost was the astral projection of Queen Jean.
>
>
>>To answer your question more directly, I think a return to first principles
>>would be a good move. There's a lot of chat about the anti-mutant sentiment.
>>Of course, this is the raison d'etre of the whole concept, you can't just
>>dispose of it. It would be worth getting some idea of exactly what the
>>situation is, since the prevalance of anti-mutant hysteria seems to be
>>widely variable (apparently even more so in the new X-Force)
>>
>
> IMHO the X-books need more ordinary humans who aren't ruled by
> prejudice.
I agree.
>
>
>
>>I think you'd want to have Professor X going back to his dream, and his
>>idea, by finding and helping new young mutants.
>>
>
> Only if he doesn't repeat his mistake of isolating them from ordinary
> people,thereby fostering anti-mutant suspicion, fear and hatred.
Well, he was training them to fight, and he did nothing to foster
anti-mutant sentiment.
>
The_Bee
> The_Bee wrote:
>
> > "Andrew Ness" <ne...@liverpoolfc.net> wrote in message news:<9kke1d$vqk$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >
> > The Infernal retcon even implied that Maddie deserved to be abandoned
> > because
> > she'd been evil all along, and that she didn't count because she was a
> > clone. By the time of "Fathers & Sons" (Cable #6-8) Scott had
> > convinced himself that "Maddie was a lie"; and her own son believed
> > that "she wasn't even a real person."
>
>
> Cable never said that. He punched the demon Sym out for saying that
> about his mother. Cable said Madelye was manipulated until she had a
> loss of identity.
They both said it. Cable, standing at Madelyne's gravestone in Cable
#6. told Domino, "She wasn't even a real person." S'ym used the very
same words in Cable #14.
To Cable's credit he added, "any more than I am, I guess." At
that time he believed he was a clone and Stryfe was the original.
>
> >
> > Marvel should at least make Scott admit, "It doesn't matter whether
> > Maddie was
> > a clone or not. She was a real person with real feelings, and I did
> > her wrong."
> >
> > More important, I want Marvel to show that Maddie wasn't in the
> > pilot's seat when the Goblin Queen was in control. Let Maddie's ghost
> > describe the horrror of being trapped inside her own head while a
> > demon with her face prepared to murder her baby. Let her recall her
> > one desperate effort, when the shattering of the forcefield distracted
> > the Goblin Queen, to hurl her child away from the monster's clutches.
> >
> > The only retcon needed is a reinterpretation of one panel and an
> > admission of one obvious fact: If the Goblin Queen had held onto the
> > boy, she could have killed him before any of the mutants could have
> > stopped her. Not a word of the original need be changed. Simply
> > reveal what was really going through the mother's mind in that crucial
> > split second.
> >
> > Then, with Maddie's willing consent, put her spirit in an infant body.
> > Place her with a loving, nurturing family and let her grow up the
> > normal way--one day at a time.
>
>
> Why even bother? Queen Jean replaced Madelyne. I don't think anyone at
> Marvel is going ot revisit inferno, even if we do see Maddie again. And
> suspect we won't for quite sometime. If we do, we will most likely see
> her back as a villain.
<Sigh> You're probably right, but that doesn't make it right. I care
because I care about justice and Maddie has been treated unjustly.
> Also want Steven Grant said on this forum is irrelevant, it isn't
> established in the comics themselves .
Agreed.
Another writer may decide that so
> called ghost was the astral projection of Queen Jean.
>
Or not.
> >
> >
>> >
> > IMHO the X-books need more ordinary humans who aren't ruled by
> > prejudice.
>
>
> I agree.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>I think you'd want to have Professor X going back to his dream, and his
> >>idea, by finding and helping new young mutants.
> >>
> >
> > Only if he doesn't repeat his mistake of isolating them from ordinary
> > people,thereby fostering anti-mutant suspicion, fear and hatred.
>
>
> Well, he was training them to fight, and he did nothing to foster
> anti-mutant sentiment.
>
Xavier's separatist practices did plenty to foster anti-mutant
sentiment. You can't bring people together by keeping them apart. Jean
Grey saw this way back in X-FACTOR #32: "I think sometimes that
Professor Xavier's real mistake was in isolating us at the
mansion--among our own kind."
Jean was right. During Xavier's absence X-FActor went public and were
accepted as heroes. But when Xavier returned, they obediently
followed him back to the mansion, where isolation again led to
mistrust and misinformation. In bitter truth, Xavier undermined his
own dream.> >
Justin Samuels
The_Bee wrote:
> Justin Samuels <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<3B79DBE4...@nyc.rr.com>...
>
>>The_Bee wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Andrew Ness" <ne...@liverpoolfc.net> wrote in message news:<9kke1d$vqk$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>>>
>>>
>
>>>The Infernal retcon even implied that Maddie deserved to be abandoned
>>>because
>>>she'd been evil all along, and that she didn't count because she was a
>>>clone. By the time of "Fathers & Sons" (Cable #6-8) Scott had
>>>convinced himself that "Maddie was a lie"; and her own son believed
>>>that "she wasn't even a real person."
>>>
>>
>>Cable never said that. He punched the demon Sym out for saying that
>>about his mother. Cable said Madelye was manipulated until she had a
>>loss of identity.
>>
>
> They both said it. Cable, standing at Madelyne's gravestone in Cable
> #6. told Domino, "She wasn't even a real person." S'ym used the very
> same words in Cable #14.
>
> To Cable's credit he added, "any more than I am, I guess." At
> that time he believed he was a clone and Stryfe was the original.
But by the time of Cable 14, Cable clearly did not consider that Maddie
wasn't a real person. Why else he punch Sym out?
And his comments that wasn't a real person probably had less to do with
Maddie being a clone than with the fact she was animated by part of
Jean's soul, and Jean reclaimed the part of Phoenix which gave maddie
life. From the moment he knew Jean, Jean had Maddie's memories and
referred to Maddie an an incarnation of herself.
But it can not be undone or unwritten.
>
>
>
>>Also want Steven Grant said on this forum is irrelevant, it isn't
>>established in the comics themselves .
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
> Another writer may decide that so
>
>>called ghost was the astral projection of Queen Jean.
>>
>>
> Or not.
Quite atrue. And since in the comics Maddie P aka Queen Jean told Nate
that she replaced his Maddie, that means he had resurrected a maddie
Pryor(the one we knew) before Queen Jean replaced her. It all depends
on what future writers want to do.
>
> Xavier's separatist practices did plenty to foster anti-mutant
> sentiment. You can't bring people together by keeping them apart. Jean
> Grey saw this way back in X-FACTOR #32: "I think sometimes that
> Professor Xavier's real mistake was in isolating us at the
> mansion--among our own kind."
>
> Jean was right. During Xavier's absence X-FActor went public and were
> accepted as heroes. But when Xavier returned, they obediently
> followed him back to the mansion, where isolation again led to
> mistrust and misinformation. In bitter truth, Xavier undermined his
> own dream.> >
>
Had Xavier stepped forward and spoken out at ciritical points, thigns
never would have blown up . There is nothing wrong having a school for
mutants and in order to train them. The disastrous ending of Gen X
shows what would likely happen if had a bunch of huma nstudents at a
training school for X-Men.
But Xavier was publically revealed himself to be a mutant and now the
X-Men anre proactive once again(like they were during X-Factor).
L. R.
Justin Samuels wrote:
> snip
>
> But Xavier was publically revealed himself to be a mutant and now the
> X-Men anre proactive once again(like they were during X-Factor).
I think I remember this. But when exactly did he "out" himself.
Luis.
The_Bee
> The_Bee wrote:
>
> By the time of "Fathers & Sons" (Cable #6-8) Scott had
> >>>convinced himself that "Maddie was a lie"; and her own son believed
> >>>that "she wasn't even a real person."
> >>>
> >>
> >>Cable never said that. He punched the demon Sym out for saying that
> >>about his mother. Cable said Madelye was manipulated until she had a
> >>loss of identity.
> >>
> >
> > They both said it. Cable, standing at Madelyne's gravestone in Cable
> > #6. told Domino, "She wasn't even a real person." S'ym used the very
> > same words in Cable #14.
> >
> > To Cable's credit he added, "any more than I am, I guess." At
> > that time he believed he was a clone and Stryfe was the original.
>
>
> But by the time of Cable 14, Cable clearly did not consider that Maddie
> wasn't a real person. Why else he punch Sym out?
>
stand for some demon doing so. OTOH, he may gained some insight about
Madelyne between Cable #6 and #14. After all, #8 ends with Cable
asking Scott to "tell me something about my mother."
>And his comments that wasn't a real person probably had less to do
with
> Maddie being a clone than with the fact she was animated by part of
> Jean's soul, and Jean reclaimed the part of Phoenix which gave maddie
> life. From the moment he knew Jean, Jean had Maddie's memories and
> referred to Maddie an an incarnation of herself.
That's Jean's egocentric POV.
Look at Cable's words in context. In Cable #6 he believed he himself
was a clone. As soon as he said of his mother, "She wasn't even a
real person," he realized the same reasoning applied to him; and he
added, _"any more than I am, I guess."_ IOW, <Madelyne wasn't a real
person because she was a clone. That means I'm not a real person
because I'm a clone.> He wouldn't have felt that way if he'd regarded
clones as real people.
> >>>Then, with Maddie's willing consent, put her spirit in an infant body.
> >>> Place her with a loving, nurturing family and let her grow up the
> >>>normal way--one day at a time.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Why even bother? Queen Jean replaced Madelyne. I don't think anyone at
> >>Marvel is going ot revisit inferno, even if we do see Maddie again. And
> >>suspect we won't for quite sometime. If we do, we will most likely see
> >>her back as a villain.
> >>
> >
> > <Sigh> You're probably right, but that doesn't make it right. I care
> > because I care about justice and Maddie has been treated unjustly.
It wouldn't be all that much bother to have Scott acknowledge
his guilt and have Jean (for once) not make excuses for him.
>
> Quite atrue. And since in the comics Maddie P aka Queen Jean told Nate
> that she replaced his Maddie, that means he had resurrected a maddie
> Pryor(the one we knew) before Queen Jean replaced her. It all depends
> on what future writers want to do.
>
I guess I'll just have to put my hopes with future writers.
>
>
>
>
> Had Xavier stepped forward and spoken out at ciritical points, thigns
> never would have blown up .
That's my point.
>There is nothing wrong having a school for
> mutants and in order to train them. The disastrous ending of Gen X
> shows what would likely happen if had a bunch of huma nstudents at a
> training school for X-Men.
If only Sean and Emma had been upfront about the presence
of mutants and selected normal human students with open minds.
The tv cartoon has the right idea. Let them attend high school
with regular kids and use the X-institute to hone their powers.
> But Xavier was publically revealed himself to be a mutant and now the
> X-Men anre proactive once again(like they were during X-Factor).
?In which issue of which title?
Justin Samuels
The_Bee wrote:
> Justin Samuels <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<3B7CA3A4...@nyc.rr.com>...
>
>>
>>But by the time of Cable 14, Cable clearly did not consider that Maddie
>>wasn't a real person. Why else he punch Sym out?
>>
>>
>
> Hey, just because _Cable_ disses his mother, that doesn't mean he'll
> stand for some demon doing so. OTOH, he may gained some insight about
> Madelyne between Cable #6 and #14. After all, #8 ends with Cable
> asking Scott to "tell me something about my mother."
I think he gained a lot of sense about Madelyne. That how he knew much
she sufferred. Also, he probably spoke to Jean, who always refers to
Madelyne as an incarnation of herself . Even when proposed to Scott, she
referred to everything the phoenixand Maddie did in first person and she
says regarding baby Nathan, I was there from the beginning(because she
absorbed Madelyne's memories).
>
>
>
> That's Jean's egocentric POV.
Not egocentric. She took back the part of the phoenix that had part of
her soul and which animated Maddie, so all that Maddie was becaue a part
of Jean.
So for all intents and purposes, Maddie was a part of Jean. Right after
inferno Storm told her, Madelyne Pryor has no being, save that whic his
your memories. And many issues later she is telling Storm how the
pHoenixand Madelyne were extensions of herslef. Storm then jokes and
says, you don't have enough body for your life(so she had to have two
other bodies).
>
> Look at Cable's words in context. In Cable #6 he believed he himself
> was a clone. As soon as he said of his mother, "She wasn't even a
> real person," he realized the same reasoning applied to him; and he
> added, _"any more than I am, I guess."_ IOW, <Madelyne wasn't a real
> person because she was a clone. That means I'm not a real person
> because I'm a clone.> He wouldn't have felt that way if he'd regarded
> clones as real people.
This is so far in the past. Why bother on it?
>
>
>
>>>>>Then, with Maddie's willing consent, put her spirit in an infant body.
>>>>>Place her with a loving, nurturing family and let her grow up the
>>>>>normal way--one day at a time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Why even bother? Queen Jean replaced Madelyne. I don't think anyone at
>>>>Marvel is going ot revisit inferno, even if we do see Maddie again. And
>>>>suspect we won't for quite sometime. If we do, we will most likely see
>>>>her back as a villain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>><Sigh> You're probably right, but that doesn't make it right. I care
>>>because I care about justice and Maddie has been treated unjustly.
>>>
>
> It wouldn't be all that much bother to have Scott acknowledge
> his guilt and have Jean (for once) not make excuses for him.
The problem is, the whole scenario was created because after Jean died,
Clarmeont wanted replacements for Jean . SO he created Rachel(Same
pwoers and code name as her mother) and Madelyne(who looked identical to
Jean0 to replace her.
With the ressurection of Jean, the writers felt Madelyne was redundant.
Als, a lot of fans weren't happy about Jean not being Phoenix. So it
decided ot resolve this dangling plot lines once for all by killing
Maddie, but before revealing she was a clone of Jean animated bythe part
Jean's souls thatgave rise to Jean/Phoenix.
So really, Cyclops di nothing. The writers were trying to write
themselves out of a bad situation.
>
>
>>Quite atrue. And since in the comics Maddie P aka Queen Jean told Nate
>>that she replaced his Maddie, that means he had resurrected a maddie
>>Pryor(the one we knew) before Queen Jean replaced her. It all depends
>>on what future writers want to do.
>>
>>
> I guess I'll just have to put my hopes with future writers.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
>>There is nothing wrong having a school for
>>mutants and in order to train them. The disastrous ending of Gen X
>>shows what would likely happen if had a bunch of huma nstudents at a
>>training school for X-Men.
>>
>
> If only Sean and Emma had been upfront about the presence
> of mutants and selected normal human students with open minds.
That would have been a better idea.
>
> The tv cartoon has the right idea. Let them attend high school
> with regular kids and use the X-institute to hone their powers.
That's true. Not every mutant needed instruction in his or her powers
wants to be a hero when he or she grows up. That's why I liked the
movie with the big cast of mutants in the backgground at the
institure(the students). The new cartoon will have nine new students
joinin this year, Sunspot, Magma, Boom Boom, Jubilee, Multiple Man,
Iceman, Cannonball, Bezkerer, and Wolfsbane.
>
>
>>But Xavier was publically revealed himself to be a mutant and now the
>>X-Men anre proactive once again(like they were during X-Factor).
>>
>
>
> ?In which issue of which title?
Spoilers
NXM 116, Xavier goes on television and reveals to the world he is a
mutant. And NXM Annual 2001, it is alreayd know that Xavier is a mutant
and the X-Men are proactive again. The issue comes out Wednesday, but here is
a lino to a scan.
http://thelovemachine.homestead.com/files/n117.6.jpg
>