Captain America VS Agent: America
Ennis Ellis
Michael Doran <XZY...@prodigy.com> wrote in article
<5i9i52$h...@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com>...
> CBI NEWSARAMA 4-5-97
> Compiled, written and edited by Michael Doran (mike-...@prodigy.com)
>
> CAPTAIN CATHARTIC
>
> Rob Liefeld is going to vent some of his frustrations over his removal
> from Marvel's HEROES REBORN project when he and Extreme Studios release
> AGENT: AMERICA on July 4th.
>
> The project, written by former Captain America writer Jeph Loeb with art
> by Liefeld, Stephen Platt and Jon Sibal tells the story of "a great
> patriotic hero who is reactivated in order to combat the evil
> machinations of an all-powerful conglomerate known as Chapter 11".
>
> Says Liefeld, "I loved working on Captain America and I'm ecstatic at the
> opportunity to work on yet another all-American hero. When creating
> Agent: America, we were clearly inspired by other classic patriotic
> heroes such as Joe Simon and Jack Kirby's The Fighting American and
> Archie Comics The Shield," he adds.
>
> The character's first appearance will actually be in the upcoming Extreme
> event mini-series Judgment Day written by Alan Moore shipping in May and
> June.
> * * * *
I'm sure I'm not the only one this has occured to, but for those of you
engaged in a war of words with Christian, Rob may just be providing you
with the ammunition you need. I don't read Captain America so I ain't
taking sides here, but it's like this. Keep a careful eye on how well this
book does, then when the Heroes Return in Oct/Nov, compare them to the Waid
/ Garney figures. If Liefeld really is the reason that Heroes Reborn was
top 20 and that hype and the character played no part in it, then Agent:
America will outsell Cap America. I mean why shouldn't it, they are
basically the same character, and if, as Christian says, the fans will
flock to whatever Liefeld does next and drop Waid's Cap like the sack of
crap it (allegedly) is, it should make top 20. Personally I don't see it
matching Waid's original sales figures, let alone Rob's Cap. Liefeld is a
spent force who has done (IMHO) nothing decent since he left Marvel the
first time. Who knows, Christian may be right, but he has never been
before.
To put it into his language:
Agent: America will be cancelled by Feb 1998 and will be bought by 2
people, unlike Captain America which will have real talents on it like Mark
"The Lark" and Rampagin Ron. Take it to the bank. It is a fact which cannot
be denied.
Cheers,
Ennis Ellis
PS. Sorry, I should mention that FEB 1998 will be when the first issue
actually ships...and sinks....
--
"You're dead Monaghan, DEAD!"
"'least I don't smell like a big girl..."
-Tommy Monaghan, Hitman.
Lance Visser
In <01bc4446$fd8ff200$4920...@hostname.eclipse.co.uk> "Ennis Ellis" <ph3...@mail.eclipse.co.uk> writes:
+>I'm sure I'm not the only one this has occured to, but for those of you
+>engaged in a war of words with Christian, Rob may just be providing you
+>with the ammunition you need. I don't read Captain America so I ain't
+>taking sides here, but it's like this. Keep a careful eye on how well this
+>book does, then when the Heroes Return in Oct/Nov, compare them to the Waid
+>/ Garney figures. If Liefeld really is the reason that Heroes Reborn was
+>top 20 and that hype and the character played no part in it, then Agent:
+>America will outsell Cap America.
Why are you trying to make this comparison now? Captain america
under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every issue.
We already have a comparison of the two on the "same" character in
terms of sales.
+>I mean why shouldn't it, they are
+>basically the same character, and if, as Christian says, the fans will
+>flock to whatever Liefeld does next and drop Waid's Cap like the sack of
+>crap it (allegedly) is, it should make top 20. Personally I don't see it
+>matching Waid's original sales figures, let alone Rob's Cap. Liefeld is a
+>spent force who has done (IMHO) nothing decent since he left Marvel the
+>first time.
If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
in the 40's.
+>Agent: America will be cancelled by Feb 1998 and will be bought by 2
+>people, unlike Captain America which will have real talents on it like Mark
+>"The Lark" and Rampagin Ron. Take it to the bank. It is a fact which cannot
+>be denied.
The only thing you can take to the bank is that a certain class
of fanboys are going to hate and attack everything Rob Liefeld says
or does regardless of what it is.
Virgilio 'Dean' B. Velasco Jr.
In article <5ig73r$o...@mikey.convex.com>,
Lance Visser <vis...@convex.com> wrote:
>
> Why are you trying to make this comparison now? Captain america
>under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every issue.
Because of massive amounts of hype.
> If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
>range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
>america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
>in the 40's.
Because of massive amounts of hype.
--
Virgilio "Dean" Velasco Jr, Department of Electrical Eng'g and Applied Physics
graduate student slave, roboticist-in-training and Q wannabe
http://dora.eeap.cwru.edu/vbv/vbv.html | Remember: Wise men still seek Christ.
"And I shall shed my light over dark evil, for darkness cannot stand the light."
Matt Slater
>>
Why are you trying to make this comparison now? Captain
america
under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every
issue.
terms of sales.<<
Hardly a fair comparison since Waid's run didnt have months of super
hype build up the way Liefeld's did. I'm sure that the months of
advertisements constant reminders of the HR helped beef up sales quite
a bit.
--
Matthew Slater
Northwestern University
m-sl...@nwu.edu
Ennis Ellis
Lance Visser wrote:
> +>I'm sure I'm not the only one this has occured to, but for those of you
> +>engaged in a war of words with Christian, Rob may just be providing you
> +>with the ammunition you need. I don't read Captain America so I ain't
> +>taking sides here, but it's like this. Keep a careful eye on how well
this
> +>book does, then when the Heroes Return in Oct/Nov, compare them to the
Waid
> +>/ Garney figures. If Liefeld really is the reason that Heroes Reborn
was
> +>top 20 and that hype and the character played no part in it, then
Agent:
> +>America will outsell Cap America.
>
> under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every
issue.
> We already have a comparison of the two on the "same" character in
> terms of sales.
>
The only thing I am trying to disprove, is Christian's comment that it was
entirely down to Liefeld's ability and / or fan base. I am merely making
the point that Marvel's hype probably played as big a part as Liefeld's
talent. When the Heroes Return I would imagine there will be a fair amount
of hype and the 2nd Waid / Garney run will almost certainly sell better
than the first. The second part, is Christian's comment that, because of
Liefeld's work on Cap, a whole load of new fans will be looking for
Liefeld's next work. I dare say a fair amount will, but I don't see it
selling as highly as his original run on Cap. You misunderstand, I am not
out to prove Liefled did a crap job on Cap. As I said, I have never read
Cap and wasn't about to start under Rob, so I am not saying Waid / GArney
was better than Rob, or that Rob did not do a good job in boosting sales
(He did though not good enough). I am trying to show that Hype will
increase Waid / Garney, and that Rob does not have a guarantued built in
audience. I am not out to jump on any "Let's get Rob" bandwagon, though I
freely admit to poking fun at him. I have never said I think his work is
shit. Read my "Confessions Of A Rob Liefeld fan" posted at Deja News if you
want to know exactly what I do think of Rob.
> +>I mean why shouldn't it, they are
> +>basically the same character, and if, as Christian says, the fans will
> +>flock to whatever Liefeld does next and drop Waid's Cap like the sack
of
> +>crap it (allegedly) is, it should make top 20. Personally I don't see
it
> +>matching Waid's original sales figures, let alone Rob's Cap. Liefeld is
a
> +>spent force who has done (IMHO) nothing decent since he left Marvel the
> +>first time.
>
> If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
> range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
> america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
> in the 40's.
>
As I said, in *my opinion* he has done nothing good since leaving Marvel.
And the point I am trying to make is that hype played a role in Cap's
success. That is why Cap under Liefeld was consistantly top 20. I know, If
it was just hype how come it's still top 20. Well, no press is bad press.
According to Comics International, Cap #1 and 2 are scarce over here in the
UK and going up in price because, and I swear this is true, it says that
people are checking it out to see if it really is as bad as everyone says.
As I said above, the Heroes Return press will probably give Waid and GArney
a boost too. Whether that sinks back to previous levels thereafter time
will tell. As an aside, there is also such a thing as a sleeper hit. I
believe that's what Waid / Garney had on their hands as it grew (though not
by a huge amount) in sales each month. Rob's work is more of a in your face
here it is now buy it type of product, than something like W/G cap and UTOS
which has built up slowly by telling solid stories that have slowly been
noticed. The buyer who buys for the art VS the buyer who buys for the story
if you will. The guy who buys for the art will move on if (s)he sees a
better artist, but the person who buys for the story will be draw in by the
story and come to identify with the characters if the writer is good. They
will thus stick around longer and actually care which book they buy each
month. Although there is some overlap, I would say different people buy
Rob's work over Waids. Hence the different styles to and reactions to the 2
versions of Cap.
> +>Agent: America will be cancelled by Feb 1998 and will be bought by 2
> +>people, unlike Captain America which will have real talents on it like
Mark
> +>"The Lark" and Rampagin Ron. Take it to the bank. It is a fact which
cannot
> +>be denied.
>
> The only thing you can take to the bank is that a certain class
> of fanboys are going to hate and attack everything Rob Liefeld says
> or does regardless of what it is.
>
Granted, that goes for any writer and artist. If you're implying I'm one of
them you're wrong. A certain class of people will also insist that
everything that happens at Marvel is Bob Harras' fault. I'm not one of them
either. I have definite disagreements with Rob, but they are more to do
with how he treats certain members of the comic community and how often he
turns out work rather than the work itself. I just think it's sad that he's
obvoiusly swiping another popular character when he could be trying to come
up with something genuinely innovative. For the record I am really looking
forward to Judgement Day, Rob has made a sound decision in going ahead with
this, it's just a pity he's taken a step back with this Agent: America
thing. It's swings and roundabouts with Rob for me. I try to keep an open
mind to everything, even Liefeld and certainly don't hate him, he's just
doing his job, and I feel very sorry for anyone who find's themself walking
down the street thinking "Oh that Rob Liefeld he's the Anti-christ" Or "Oh
that Bob Harras, he's a slimy bastard" or "Oh that Mark Waid, he's a rude
little man".
Bottom line: I am argueing that Hype and Character will send Waid and
Garney to new heights, and without them, Rob will be selling at the level
as his Prophet / Cable series ( I seek only to compare the 2 because of
comments Christian has made for Rob and against Waid and Garney to the
point of being almost slanderous IMO). I don't see how that is an unfair
assumption to make. I hope you don't too now that I have attempted to
clarify what I was saying. If not let me know, and I'll be happy to discuss
it further.
Best,
Sincerely,
Ennis Ellis.
##Randall
Lance Visser (vis...@convex.com) wrote:
: The only thing you can take to the bank is that a certain class
: or does regardless of what it is.
I believe Mr. Visser ment to say "certain fanboys with class". :)
--
Thank you for your time,
Randall Wright
Struggling Writer, Father of two.
Eric Lee Bailey
>
>
> In <01bc4446$fd8ff200$4920...@hostname.eclipse.co.uk> "Ennis Ellis"
<ph3...@mail.eclipse.co.uk> writes:
>
> +>I'm sure I'm not the only one this has occured to, but for those of you
> +>engaged in a war of words with Christian, Rob may just be providing you
> +>with the ammunition you need. I don't read Captain America so I ain't
> +>taking sides here, but it's like this. Keep a careful eye on how well
this
> +>book does, then when the Heroes Return in Oct/Nov, compare them to the
Waid
> +>/ Garney figures. If Liefeld really is the reason that Heroes Reborn was
> +>top 20 and that hype and the character played no part in it, then Agent:
> +>America will outsell Cap America.
>
> Why are you trying to make this comparison now? Captain america
> under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every
issue.
> We already have a comparison of the two on the "same" character in
> terms of sales.
Mark's Cap wasn't hyped to the max. It wasn't a "big event" geared directly
to X-fans. It's readership came by word of mouth. It was steadily
increasing in sales each month, while Rob's Cap steadily decreased.
>
> +>I mean why shouldn't it, they are
> +>basically the same character, and if, as Christian says, the fans will
> +>flock to whatever Liefeld does next and drop Waid's Cap like the sack of
> +>crap it (allegedly) is, it should make top 20. Personally I don't see it
> +>matching Waid's original sales figures, let alone Rob's Cap. Liefeld is a
> +>spent force who has done (IMHO) nothing decent since he left Marvel the
> +>first time.
>
> If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
> range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
> america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
> in the 40's.
Again, Mark's Cap wasn't directed at the X-fans in an attempt to lure them
after the annual big summer x-over. Again, notice his unhyped Cap steadily
increased in sales, while Rob's overhyped Cap steadily decreased. People
read Mark's Cap, liked it, kept buying it, and recommended it to their
friends. People read Rob's Cap, dropped it, and didn't recommend it to
anybody.
>
> +>Agent: America will be cancelled by Feb 1998 and will be bought by 2
> +>people, unlike Captain America which will have real talents on it like
Mark
> +>"The Lark" and Rampagin Ron. Take it to the bank. It is a fact which
cannot
> +>be denied.
>
> The only thing you can take to the bank is that a certain class
> of fanboys are going to hate and attack everything Rob Liefeld says
> or does regardless of what it is.
>
>
Be honest Lance, can you really say you preferred Rob's Cap to Mark's? The
"fanboy" crowd would want Scott Lobdell on the book. I really wanted to
like Rob's Cap, I just didn't. How is that attacking Rob regardless of what
he does?
E
"She lives in a time of her own"
.
Dr. David Williams
Lance Visser said:
> Why are you trying to make this comparison now? Captain america
> under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every
issue.
> We already have a comparison of the two on the "same" character in
> terms of sales.
<SNIP>
> If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
> range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
> america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
> in the 40's.
Lance you forget one very important factor in Heroes Reborn. Hype. Marvel
Hyped HR like it was the second coming of Christ. To compare, just count
how many full page ads you saw for the HR books vs. Waid's Cap. I'm not
sure how many I saw for HR (too many to count) but I saw none for Waid's
Cap. In fact I almost missed Waid's Cap. Sales aren't based entirely on
talent. A lot of it is Hype. HR had the full power of Marvel Marketing.
Waid didn't. End of story. And didn't Waid's Kingdom Come outsell HR?
--
-David Williams, West...@prodigy.net
"You're sitting outside, in broad daylight, with an armload
of funny books, and you're worried that someone's going to
make fun of you for DANCING?!"-Touch of Silver #2
Paul O'Brien
>Lance Visser <vis...@convex.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why are you trying to make this comparison now? Captain america
>>under Liefeld outsold the best Waid managed by a wide margin on every issue.
Liefeld had the benefit of an enormous promotional push behind him.
Waid had word of mouth and was taking over from a point of low sales.
What will be interesting to see is how well the Heroes Reborn titles
fare when they are turned back to the Busiek, Waid et al after the
Heroes Return crossover. In all honesty, I expect them to settle
to a lower point than at present.
Paul O'Brien
The Onslaught Index - http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~prob/index/
T minus 21.
Kyle S. Moyer
Dr. David Williams (west...@prodigy.net) wrote:
: Lance you forget one very important factor in Heroes Reborn. Hype. Marvel
: Hyped HR like it was the second coming of Christ. To compare, just count
: how many full page ads you saw for the HR books vs. Waid's Cap. I'm not
: sure how many I saw for HR (too many to count) but I saw none for Waid's
: Cap. In fact I almost missed Waid's Cap. Sales aren't based entirely on
: talent. A lot of it is Hype. HR had the full power of Marvel Marketing.
: Waid didn't. End of story. And didn't Waid's Kingdom Come outsell HR?
and just for the record, when waid had his run on cap, i never read any
comic magazines, didn't read this group, etc. so i never heard of the
good work he did until after he was off the book (or actually just before
he left). that's the reason i didn't buy it. once i did, i LOVED it! now
find me someone who's never heard of rob's cap.
Peter Likidis
Lance Visser wrote:
>
> If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
> range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
> america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
> in the 40's.
>
Yeah but with absolutely no marketing and word of mouth the position in
said charts went from 100 to 40 within a year. Unlike Rob's Crap which
had a massive marketing push. You'd be amazed at how many braindead
readers out there who only read what they are told to...
--
Peter Likidis
cen...@wr.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5223/
"Life is a tale told by an idiot...... full of sound and fury, in the
end signifying nothing" - Shakespeare.
Eric Lee Bailey
The most significant comparison is how Mark's sales steadily increased while
Rob's sales steadily decreased. I think that is the best way to compare how
the readership felt about both interpretatons. When people read Mark's Cap
the first time, they liked it and kept buying. When they read Rob's Cap,
they didn't and stopped buying.
shut...@aol.com
In article <01bc4650$be9512e0$7e15edcc@default>, "Dr. David Williams" <west...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
>> If this is true, why did his captain america rank in the 11-13
>> range every issue (after the first) and why did Mark Waid's captain
>> america (after a long time with him on the title) still rank (supposedly)
>> in the 40's.
>
>Lance you forget one very important factor in Heroes Reborn. Hype. Marvel
>Hyped HR like it was the second coming of Christ. To compare, just count
>how many full page ads you saw for the HR books vs. Waid's Cap. I'm not
>sure how many I saw for HR (too many to count) but I saw none for Waid's
>Cap. In fact I almost missed Waid's Cap. Sales aren't based entirely on
>talent. A lot of it is Hype. HR had the full power of Marvel Marketing.
>Waid didn't. End of story. And didn't Waid's Kingdom Come outsell HR?
Also, Waid's Cap had the albatross of being a continuation of the declining
franchise of the original Cap series while Liefeld's had the benefit of being a
clean slate. A better comparison will be following Waid's new Cap for seven
issues and *then* comparing the sales between Liefeld's Cap and Waid's
new run -- especially since the suggested wacky double-numbering system
means that in all likelihood Waid will get his own Cap #1.
-- Rob Jensen
==================================================
"Lisa, you don't spend ten years as a homicidal maniac without
learning a few things about dynamite." -- Sideshow Bob