New Avengers #5, real comments this time
Robert Wiacek
A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
I'm one of those people that thought Wolverine being added to the Avengers
was a good thing.If DC is defined by the big three (Superman, Batman, Wonder
Woman), Marvel is defined by the big two, Spiderman and Wolverine. Both
characters are iconic among fans and have become archetypes for other
characters. Wolverine especially, given that half of the characters in Image
are Wolverine clones. So if Avengers is seriously going to be touted as
Marvel's flagship team book, he needs to be there.
His entrance to the team in NA#5 has to be the worst in comicbook history.
He gets stabbed in the throat with his own claws. By Spiderwoman, no less.
Now I know Bendis was playing it up for laughs and probably to show that
Jessica is a bad ass, but it ultimately lessens Wolverine's impact to the
team. Even the statement of her "SHIELD training" was a bit nonsensical,
given how many SHIELD agents he slaughtered in "Enemy of the State." And she
was able to do it, when he had the element of surprise with the Savage
Lands. That just shouldn't have happened.
And then having Wolverine attacking Lykos/Sauron, despite the fact that out
of all the people there, he knows how Sauron's powers work the best, was
just dumb.
A bit disappointing for me overall, given how much I was looking forward to
Wolverine joining the team.
Rob
David
<rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
>A bit disappointing for me overall, given how much I was looking forward to
>Wolverine joining the team.
I thought it was too talkative and at times hard to figure out who was
saying what/who the bad guys are/what their plan was. A big come-down
from a pretty good last issue.
Robert Wiacek
"David" <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d7n5711hqj489ipev...@4ax.com...
I still liked the comicbook, just disappointed how Wolverine is being used.
Being used so far, that is.
Rob
David Henry
"Robert Wiacek" <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:53Bce.13659$QR1....@fe04.lga...
Wolverine's introduction was weak. There were a few things that really stood
out as flaws in the issue:
First, we have it that he's *running* from six mutates. He's Wolverine. Why
not just fight them?
Wolverine and Jessica Drew have met plenty of times before, most notably
when he was Patch in Madripoor. Why wouldn't he recognize her scent -- even
in the Savage Land? Even if you use the Savage Land as an excuse, it's not
like he can't see. Same thing for Luke Cage. The pair obviously aren't
mutates. Why pop the claws at them? Likewise for Jessica Drew. She should
have immediately recognized Logan/Patch.
I really don't accept Spider Woman slashing someone's throat, especially
when later in the issue she talks about SHIELD being a peace-keeping task
force, and all. Talk about overreacting as a hero, and an Avenger, no less.
Why not incapacitate him with another venon blast? The Avengers aren't known
for killing their adversaries. In this issue, we have Spider Woman
essentially killing someone (if it weren't for Wolverine's healing factor)
and then we have Wolverine gutting Lykos (and for what reason?). I know this
is a new direction for the Avengers, but having killers on the team seems
like too much a departure from Avengers basics.
As for the last page, doesn't Agent Belova seem too much like the Agent that
was trying to kill Wolverine over in Ultimate X-Men, when Wolverine and
SpiderMan teamed up for a few issues? No ice cream truck this time, but she
still seems decidedly the same nasty woman. (Did Bendis write that, too?)
To smaller degrees:
When Iron Man blasts the dinosaur in the mouth and he falls. Why does
Captain American have to cover and shield SpiderMan? Spidey's more agile and
has a spider sense. He would have been out of there in a split second, not
standing there saying No duh!
Spidey's being underplayed so far, too.
Dave
Adam Cadre
> As for the last page, doesn't Agent Belova seem too much like the
> Agent that was trying to kill Wolverine over in Ultimate X-Men, when
> Wolverine and SpiderMan teamed up for a few issues? No ice cream truck
> this time, but she still seems decidedly the same nasty woman.
Yelena Belova is the second Black Widow. She's appeared in three
miniseries (two shared with the first Black Widow, one of her own),
an issue or two of Inhumans, and possibly elsewhere.
------
Adam Cadre, Holyoke, MA
http://adamcadre.ac
Robert Wiacek
"David Henry" <telem...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bNGdndelELE...@comcast.com...
>
> "Robert Wiacek" <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> news:53Bce.13659$QR1....@fe04.lga...
>>
> Why not just fight them?
Good point. Didn't even think of that one.
> When Iron Man blasts the dinosaur in the mouth and he falls. Why does
> Captain American have to cover and shield SpiderMan? Spidey's more agile
> and has a spider sense. He would have been out of there in a split second,
> not standing there saying No duh!
>
> Spidey's being underplayed so far, too.
Check out the scene where the Avengers are released. Of all the characters
that land, Spider-Man, the guy with super agility, is the only one who
doesn't land on his feet. Now to be fair, this is probably Finch's fault,
but still...
Rob
Steven R. Stahl
issues. Nothing happens naturally.
The heroes are stripped naked after being captured, for no other
reason, apparently, than the jokes that follow (too bad there wasn't a
MAX version, or readers could have been treated to jokes about the size
of Cage's penis and informed as to whether Jessica shaves around her
slit). Yet the costumes aren't ripped off; they're taken off carefully
and left to be retrieved and put back on.
Iron Man's armor is removed, somehow (means unknown), yet despite being
intelligent enough to do that, Brainchild (I presume; here's a Web site
that lists the Savage Land mutates:
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=19 ),
doesn't disarm the armor or do anything to secure it.
Yet another previously unknown feature of Iron Man's armor (the
contrast with the armor in Ellis's IRON MAN is striking) is used at a
critical point in the plot. The string of issues with retcons continues
unbroken.
Captain America acts like an alpha chimp issuing orders to
lower-ranking chimps: "Do what I say (even if it's silly)!"
Wolverine acts like an idiot in attacking Sauron, as Cap helpfully
points out.
Agent Belova also acts like an idiot in having Sauron killed first. If
her goal is to kill everybody, why not let Sauron kill the heroes, or
help him, and then kill him later?
Even the dialogue, especially the jokes, was weak.
If Bendis does know how to plot stories, he's offered no evidence of
that ability in NEW AVENGERS.
SRS
David
<syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
>The plotting in this issue was worse than in any of the preceding
>issues. Nothing happens naturally.
>
>The heroes are stripped naked after being captured, for no other
>reason, apparently, than the jokes that follow
So they can't use their weapons I guess? Or maybe at first they just
wanted to strip Tony but then realized how embarrassing it'd be for
him if no one else was naked.
>(too bad there wasn't a
>MAX version, or readers could have been treated to jokes about the size
>of Cage's penis and informed as to whether Jessica shaves around her
>slit).
Seems to me like even mainstream comics get away with more than what
was shown here (like DC's most recent "Justice League Classified").
Bendis must be somekinda weirdo who doesn't believe in cheap thrills.
Robert Wiacek
"Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1114879803....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> The plotting in this issue was worse than in any of the preceding
> issues. Nothing happens naturally.
Some one lives, some one dies, an agent makes a conscious desicion to
actively destory a team, and you say "nothing happens"?!?
> The heroes are stripped naked after being captured, for no other
> reason, apparently, than the jokes that follow
Stripping them naked was the sensible thing to do, for a variety of reason,
not the least being psychological. The jokes were typical Bendis, whether
you like it or not, but more importantly in showed that even in this "dire"
circumstance, the heroes were cool as cucumbers (and damnit, I don't want
any dick jokes over that last comment).
(too bad there wasn't a
> MAX version, or readers could have been treated to jokes about the size
> of Cage's penis and informed as to whether Jessica shaves around her
> slit).
Yes, too bad. Gratuitous female nudity = good.
Yet the costumes aren't ripped off; they're taken off carefully
> and left to be retrieved and put back on.
You know how much Brainchild could get on eBay for those costumes?
> Iron Man's armor is removed, somehow (means unknown), yet despite being
> intelligent enough to do that, Brainchild (I presume; here's a Web site
> that lists the Savage Land mutates:
> http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=19 ),
> doesn't disarm the armor or do anything to secure it.
Because Brainchild has always been shown to be infallible?
> Yet another previously unknown feature of Iron Man's armor (the
> contrast with the armor in Ellis's IRON MAN is striking) is used at a
> critical point in the plot. The string of issues with retcons continues
> unbroken.
I'm going to call bullshit on that one! Didn't Avengers/Thunderbolt show
that the Iron-Man suit can opperate remotely? Let me guess, that was
different...
> Agent Belova also acts like an idiot in having Sauron killed first. If
> her goal is to kill everybody, why not let Sauron kill the heroes, or
> help him, and then kill him later?
Sauron already had the Avengers under his hypnotic gaze, so my guess is that
Belova had Sauron killed because a) she didn't want to fall for the same
thing, b) didn't want to fight the Avengers AND Sauron at the same time, and
c) the Avengers would probably be easier to kill while they are waking up
from their trance.
Rob
Ethan Hoddes
has not yet been a situation where Tony would have been aided by using the
remote feature, and did not do so. And how is new information a "retcon"? Is
Alex Summers a retcon since Scott never mentioned he had a brother before he
appeared? More to the point, is Cyclops' ability to open his visor without
touching it a retcon, since for a few issues he never did it? Where's the
previous information that would suggest the Iron Man suit can't be operated
remotely? And since it's constantly upgraded, where's the previous
information suggesting Tony's INCAPABLE of adding that feature? As for the
nudity thing, yeah, it's cheap laughs, but wait to ASSUME Bendis would make
a racist penis joke if he could, then mock him for what he never did. The
only one implicated in racism by that statement is you.
--
"Saints should always be judged guilty until proven innocent."-George Orwell
"Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1114879803....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Shawn H
: A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
: His entrance to the team in NA#5 has to be the worst in comicbook history.
: He gets stabbed in the throat with his own claws. By Spiderwoman, no less.
My favorite part of the issue. Well, next to "Yep. We're naked."
: Now I know Bendis was playing it up for laughs and probably to show that
: Jessica is a bad ass, but it ultimately lessens Wolverine's impact to the
: team. Even the statement of her "SHIELD training" was a bit nonsensical,
: given how many SHIELD agents he slaughtered in "Enemy of the State." And she
: was able to do it, when he had the element of surprise with the Savage
: Lands. That just shouldn't have happened.
: And then having Wolverine attacking Lykos/Sauron, despite the fact that out
: of all the people there, he knows how Sauron's powers work the best, was
: just dumb.
The only way to viably keep Wolverine in the same room with Cap is to tone
Logan down. I'm all for it. I'd rather see his smarts than his claws in
action.
Shawn
Shawn H
: "Robert Wiacek" <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
: news:53Bce.13659$QR1....@fe04.lga...
: >
: > A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: As for the last page, doesn't Agent Belova seem too much like the Agent that
: was trying to kill Wolverine over in Ultimate X-Men, when Wolverine and
: SpiderMan teamed up for a few issues? No ice cream truck this time, but she
: still seems decidedly the same nasty woman. (Did Bendis write that, too?)
Yelena Belova is the second Black Widow. However, I'm not sure why she's
speaking American and working for SHIELD.
Shawn
Shawn H
: Agent Belova also acts like an idiot in having Sauron killed first. If
: her goal is to kill everybody, why not let Sauron kill the heroes, or
: help him, and then kill him later?
To keep him from talking in case someone escapes?
Shawn
Shawn H
: information suggesting Tony's INCAPABLE of adding that feature? As for the
: nudity thing, yeah, it's cheap laughs, but wait to ASSUME Bendis would make
: a racist penis joke if he could, then mock him for what he never did. The
: only one implicated in racism by that statement is you.
There's been previous discussion of Bendis tendency to characterize Luke as
strong, silent, suave and thuggish muscle, IE, as a stereotype.
Shawn
Shawn H
: "Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
: news:1114879803....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: > The plotting in this issue was worse than in any of the preceding
: > issues. Nothing happens naturally.
: Some one lives, some one dies, an agent makes a conscious desicion to
: actively destory a team, and you say "nothing happens"?!?
"nothing happens naturally" is the actual quote, don't be dense.
However, I thought this issue had the best flow yet. It wasn't nearly as
jerky, abrupt or disjointed as Bendis' take on the Avengers has been since
issue #500.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: On 30 Apr 2005 09:50:03 -0700, "Steven R. Stahl"
: <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
: >The plotting in this issue was worse than in any of the preceding
: >issues. Nothing happens naturally.
: >
: >The heroes are stripped naked after being captured, for no other
: >reason, apparently, than the jokes that follow
: So they can't use their weapons I guess? Or maybe at first they just
: wanted to strip Tony but then realized how embarrassing it'd be for
: him if no one else was naked.
Yeah, it was to humiliate and de-arsenal them, and because Brainchild likes
to experiment with naked subjects, I guess.
Shawn
Ethan Hoddes
b) That doesn't make inventing racism where none exists right. Considering
that you'd have a hard time finding someone who'd consider the writing of a
"strong, silent, suave and thuggish" black character damning evidence of
racism, and the seriousness of the charge of being a racist, this doesn't
provide anywhere NEAR adequate reason to assume Bendis is a racist, and
procede to make off-hand jokes on that basis.
--
"Saints should always be judged guilty until proven innocent."-George Orwell
"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:d50t6o$etk$8...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
The Babaloughesian
That's a good point. For some reason, Sauron was an incredible freaking
chatterbox.
Robert Wiacek
> Robert Wiacek <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> : "Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
> : news:1114879803....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> : > The plotting in this issue was worse than in any of the preceding
> : > issues. Nothing happens naturally.
>
> : Some one lives, some one dies, an agent makes a conscious desicion to
> : actively destory a team, and you say "nothing happens"?!?
>
> "nothing happens naturally" is the actual quote, don't be dense.
Yes, but I was trying to do Brian Cox ala Adaptation ;-)
Rob
Robert Wiacek
> Robert Wiacek <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> : A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> : His entrance to the team in NA#5 has to be the worst in comicbook
> history.
> : He gets stabbed in the throat with his own claws. By Spiderwoman, no
> less.
>
> My favorite part of the issue. Well, next to "Yep. We're naked."
I was partial to the "I want off the team" myself.
> The only way to viably keep Wolverine in the same room with Cap is to tone
> Logan down. I'm all for it. I'd rather see his smarts than his claws in
> action.
Tone down Wolverine? Maybe. The last few meetings between the two were of
mutual respect, a far cry from that Captain America annual where CA told
Logan he had no chance of ever becoming an Avenger. I bit ironic now
(although not as ironic as that Blue Beetle/Maxwell Lord quote).
And given how CA been acting lately, I don't think he would be that
disapproving of Wolverine anyways. But I agree, a smart Wolverine is better
and something most writers seem incapable of portraying.
Rob
badth...@yahoo.com
Marvel are imitating the success of JLA without understand what really
made it work. "Oh, it's having all the top guns" is not what made the
relaunch work. They've had "all the top guns" before without the same
success. It's something more than that. They're ignoring that
Morrison wasn't just assembling the A-list roster to assemble them. He
said over and over again, it's the pantheon of the Greek gods, with a
corresponding DCU member. Bendis obviously has no such template. He's
just gathering all the best selling MU guys with no such "grand plan"
and the meandering tone of the book reflects this. Still, it's as
funny as hell (did anyone catch's Logan's one-liner of "Crashed back
there"?) and I maintain this should just be a humor book until such
time as they really re-launch the real "Avengers."
And how the hell do Luke Cage, Spiderwoman and The Sentry factor into
"JLA-ing" anything? These are hardly "top guns." Almost every member
of the revamped JLA had his or her own book. By this example, it
should be Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Daredevil
and The Hulk, with possibly Dr. Strange and The Sub Mariner. That's a
mega-powerful A-list Marvel roster. But it's all-male, so you'd need
either Elektra or a resurrected Jean Grey, who thinks maybe she'd live
longer on another team (and a Wolverine delighted to have her). Or
hell, maybe Sue Storm wants something more to do. You don't get more
A-list than her.
But how long is it going to take for Bendis and David Finch to get a
hand on this book? As other posters have noted, they get Spider-man's
spider-sense down, but forget his agility? Wolverine kicks the crap
out of half the MU, but a third-stringer like Spiderwoman sticks his
own claws into his throat (I know he loves her, but come on, not even
Elektra or Deathstrike could do this). I know he's Marvel's "It"
writer, but the simple fact is, he just may not be able to write a team
book. To do it, you have to tell your story, but accept that whatever
is going on in the character's own book takes precedence. It's simply
of respecting those creators the way you'd like to be respected. That
can't be easy and apparently it's too hard for Bendis.
I'm a stooopid Cap fan, so I'll follow him most anywhere, the way I'm
sure some Iron Man, Spider-man and Wolverine fans are, thus insuring
this book's continued success. But I'm also a stooopid Nightwing fan,
but have dropped not only his book, but The Outsiders as well because
they simply weren't giving me my hero the way I'd always known him.
After the buzz dies down, this book may face the same type of
dissatisfaction. I know that now that Cap's own book is good again, I
could actually live without this one. I'll stick it out through the
second storyline (which could be see as the first "real" storyline, as
this one could be seen as part of the "origin") and if it's no better
than this, I'm gone.
jpha...@yahoo.com
> Like most people who are imitating success, The Powers That Be at
> Marvel are imitating the success of JLA without understand what
really
> made it work.
Clearly Bendis is not imitating anything Grant Morrison does which is
probably for the best.
Gods don't work well in any mainstream comics universe unless someone
the caliber of Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, or Neil Gaiman is writing
them. The first is completely unavailable to Marvel while under
exclusive contract, the second seems to show no current interest, and
the third has one project left for Marvel but is very busy.
Fan favorite Kurt Busiek's health leaves him unable to be the
continuing writer on JLA let alone the Avengers. Whedon seems happy
writing Astonishing X-Men and has an upcoming Wonder Woman movie.
Millar is already writing a version of the Avengers in Ultimates. JMS
is already writing Supreme Power. A Warren Ellis-written Avengers
would probably degenerate into a quarterly book.
Bendis isn't the best possible writer, but he's the best writer
possible. And he has almost tripled sales. The alternative to Bendis
is someone like Chuck Austen, the previous writer. Take Bendis off of
Avengers and the book might as well be put down in a mercy killing,
unless one thinks Giffen and DeMatteis will look viable after their run
on the Defenders miniseries. (But if that goes well, wouldn't it be
better for them to write Defenders as an ongoing book?)
Nathan P. Mahney
news:42742...@x-privat.org...
Sauron's always been a chatterbox. He's one of those villains who just
can't resist an opportunity to pose menacingly and rant about his awesome
powers. As far as Sauron's concerned, Bendis portrayed the character
perfectly.
--
- Nathan P. Mahney -
Writing:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/index.html
The Whole Story Comic Reviews:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/ReviewIndex.html
Gamebook Scenic Solutions:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/SSIndex.html
Tony
out of half the MU, but a third-stringer like Spiderwoman sticks his
own claws into his throat (I know he loves her, but come on, not even
Elektra or Deathstrike could do this). <<
--though I thought it was ridiculous that Logan didn't smell Jessica or
Peter or Luke (even in the Savage Land) and even though I thought it
was ridiculous that Jessica went for the kill so quickly, I *do* think
it's possible for Jessica to overpower Logan. She's much faster and
agile than he is, plus she's a good 10 times stronger than he is.
Forcing his claws into Logan's throat wouldn't make her break a sweat.
Tony
Shawn H
: a) The character was created as a stereotype.
I don't know if I'd say that. In the context of the blaxploitation era,
Luke was a very interesting choice of hero, and his book (which was
surpisingly long-lived) brought a lot of unusual characters to the Marvel
universe. If Panther was Sidney Poitier (the black man who could come to
dinner from the 60s), then Cage was Richard Roundtree.
: b) That doesn't make inventing racism where none exists right. Considering
: that you'd have a hard time finding someone who'd consider the writing of a
: "strong, silent, suave and thuggish" black character damning evidence of
: racism, and the seriousness of the charge of being a racist, this doesn't
: provide anywhere NEAR adequate reason to assume Bendis is a racist, and
: procede to make off-hand jokes on that basis.
A joke is not the same as damning diatribe, and there's nothing wrong with
putting the concept out there to see if it fits. Bendis' own sense of humor
and focus on character flaws in his characters opens the door for this
speculation.
Shawn
Shawn H
: "The Babaloughesian" <babalou...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
: news:42742...@x-privat.org...
: >
: > "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
: > news:d50t19$etk$6...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
: > > Steven R. Stahl <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
: > >
: > > : Agent Belova also acts like an idiot in having Sauron killed first. If
: > > : her goal is to kill everybody, why not let Sauron kill the heroes, or
: > > : help him, and then kill him later?
: > >
: > > To keep him from talking in case someone escapes?
: >
: > That's a good point. For some reason, Sauron was an incredible freaking
: > chatterbox.
: Sauron's always been a chatterbox. He's one of those villains who just
: can't resist an opportunity to pose menacingly and rant about his awesome
: powers. As far as Sauron's concerned, Bendis portrayed the character
: perfectly.
Agreed. Though there was originally an occasional sense of contrition for
his evil urges (and the one in the Claremon/Byrne era was basically a
complete victim), he even gives a reason for the radicalization: Weapon X
and whatever is happening now has really pissed him off.
Shawn
Shawn H
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
: news:d50smf$etk$4...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
: > Robert Wiacek <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
: >
: > : A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > My favorite part of the issue. Well, next to "Yep. We're naked."
: I was partial to the "I want off the team" myself.
Jessica's very entertaining on this team.
: > The only way to viably keep Wolverine in the same room with Cap is to tone
: > Logan down. I'm all for it. I'd rather see his smarts than his claws in
: > action.
: Tone down Wolverine? Maybe. The last few meetings between the two were of
: mutual respect, a far cry from that Captain America annual where CA told
: Logan he had no chance of ever becoming an Avenger. I bit ironic now
: (although not as ironic as that Blue Beetle/Maxwell Lord quote).
I think I'm just seeing ICBINTJL as a dream they're all having to console
themselves amidst the murders.
: And given how CA been acting lately, I don't think he would be that
: disapproving of Wolverine anyways. But I agree, a smart Wolverine is better
: and something most writers seem incapable of portraying.
Including Bendis in Secret War, but I think he actually has plans for Logan
here.
Shawn
Shawn H
: > : Some one lives, some one dies, an agent makes a conscious desicion to
: > : actively destory a team, and you say "nothing happens"?!?
: >
: > "nothing happens naturally" is the actual quote, don't be dense.
: Yes, but I was trying to do Brian Cox ala Adaptation ;-)
Worst. movie. ever.
Shawn
Nathan P. Mahney
I was so relieved to see the Weapon X stuff get a mention - it means Bendis
is paying at least some attention to the current status of the characters he
wants to use. This is the kind of continuity I want, more so than trying to
make everything fit with offhand comments from 20 years ago.
Nathan P. Mahney
> Robert Wiacek <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> : "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> : news:d50smf$etk$4...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
> : > Robert Wiacek <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> : >
> : > : A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New
Avengers #5
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > My favorite part of the issue. Well, next to "Yep. We're naked."
>
> : I was partial to the "I want off the team" myself.
>
> Jessica's very entertaining on this team.
I like her. This is the sort of thing that will really raise her profile,
and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her star in a mini or an ongoing
in the near future.
> : > The only way to viably keep Wolverine in the same room with Cap is to
tone
> : > Logan down. I'm all for it. I'd rather see his smarts than his claws
in
> : > action.
>
> : Tone down Wolverine? Maybe. The last few meetings between the two were
of
> : mutual respect, a far cry from that Captain America annual where CA told
> : Logan he had no chance of ever becoming an Avenger. I bit ironic now
> : (although not as ironic as that Blue Beetle/Maxwell Lord quote).
>
> I think I'm just seeing ICBINTJL as a dream they're all having to console
> themselves amidst the murders.
>
> : And given how CA been acting lately, I don't think he would be that
> : disapproving of Wolverine anyways. But I agree, a smart Wolverine is
better
> : and something most writers seem incapable of portraying.
>
> Including Bendis in Secret War, but I think he actually has plans for
> Logan here.
I'm increasingly convinced that Bendis doesn't really get Wolverine. He
writes the character's surface well enough, but I can't see any of the depth
that comes through when Logan is written well. I'd love to be proven wrong,
though.
Oh, for anyone who missed it, here's an interview with Mark Millar from
Newsarama - apparently Millar's Wolverine arc is set-up for Logan joining
the Avengers.
http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/Millar_Wolvie13.htm
STRATEGY
Ethan Hoddes wrote:
> a) The character was created as a stereotype.
> b) That doesn't make inventing racism where none exists right.
Considering
> that you'd have a hard time finding someone who'd consider the
writing of a
> "strong, silent, suave and thuggish" black character damning evidence
of
> racism, and the seriousness of the charge of being a racist, this
doesn't
> provide anywhere NEAR adequate reason to assume Bendis is a racist,
and
> procede to make off-hand jokes on that basis.
yeah, at least Bendis doesn't have him saying "Sweet Christmas!" every
five minutes, or some other attempt at a white guy making up things a
black guy from the ghetto *might* say
and I don't see any chains around his waist :)
STRATEGY
STRATEGY
Shawn H wrote:
> Ethan Hoddes <ethan....@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> : a) The character was created as a stereotype.
>
> I don't know if I'd say that. In the context of the blaxploitation
era,
> Luke was a very interesting choice of hero, and his book (which was
> surpisingly long-lived) brought a lot of unusual characters to the
Marvel
> universe. If Panther was Sidney Poitier (the black man who could come
to
> dinner from the 60s), then Cage was Richard Roundtree.
Hey, if you're disagreeing, don't reinforce his arguement!
STRATEGY
Robert Wiacek
But Brian Cox was awesome, as one would expect.
Rob
David Henry
"Tony" <Tony...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1114938820....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Agreed on all counts. Jessica could do what she did to Wolverine, it's that
the writer allowed for it to happen that's interesting. Obviously, Bendis
thought it okay to play up Spider Woman by diminishing Wolverine. Again,
interesting.
As far as Wolverine's senses go, I could see if he couldn't smell them from
a mile away, but if he can't smell them (and recognize their voices, for
that matter) from around a tree, then something's wrong.
Dave
Shawn H
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
Ah, the scene is coming back to me, yes. I so hated the character (as I did
everyone in the film except maybe Meryl Streep, a little), though, I
blotted him out. I'll take my Brian Cox fix in X2 and The Ring.
Shawn
Shawn H
: Shawn H wrote:
: > universe. If Panther was Sidney Poitier (the black man who could come
: to
: > dinner from the 60s), then Cage was Richard Roundtree.
: Hey, if you're disagreeing, don't reinforce his arguement!
But my point is, in the context of the time, it wasn't a stereotype yet. It
was new and different then. It's become a cliche since.
Shawn
grinningdemon
<nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, he's also clearly paying attention to the fact that Wolverine is
already on three different X-Men teams and is/was evil in his own book
until the current issue...I wouldn't get too excited about the Weapon
X mention...but don't mind me, I'm just sick of not being able to get
a Marvel book without Wolverine in it.
badth...@yahoo.com
do it, but the point is, they should never be able to (and you'd think
he'd reflexively retract his claws).
And when did Jessica Drew get her full powers back? Last I heard of
her years ago, she was only working at half speed, which is why she was
just a PI and not wearing the outfit any longer.
Nathan P. Mahney
news:bm7b71l4i26f602nv...@4ax.com...
How do we know when Millar's Wolverine arc happens in comparison to New
Avengers? Presumably it's beforehand due to stuff with Nick Fury, but the
stories aren't finished yet. Wolvie's timeline is still in flux. Sauron's
isn't, as he's a minor character who makes occasional guest appearances. I
was glad to see his time in Weapon X get mentioned and dealt with, as
opposed to him just being dumped into the Vault and back to the Savage Land
with no explanation. It doesn't make up for the many, may other faults in
the prison break issues, but it's something.
The Babaloughesian
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1115017064.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
What constitutes half speed v. "full powers"? I know she had those energy
blasts and some strength when Bendis last used her in Alias, but she was
still a PI there. Seems like those are the powers she has now. Should she
have more?
--
Plus, a big machine threatening you is probably more scary than a black
guy.
- http://tinyurl.com/aol36
badth...@yahoo.com
The Babaloughesian wrote:
> <badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1115017064.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Well, technically everyone on the team but Cap could overpower him
and
> > do it, but the point is, they should never be able to (and you'd
think
> > he'd reflexively retract his claws).
> >
> > And when did Jessica Drew get her full powers back? Last I heard
of
> > her years ago, she was only working at half speed, which is why she
was
> > just a PI and not wearing the outfit any longer.
>
> What constitutes half speed v. "full powers"? I know she had those
energy
> blasts and some strength when Bendis last used her in Alias, but she
was
> still a PI there. Seems like those are the powers she has now.
Should she
> have more?
>
>
suffered a decrease. Then again she "died" at the end of her book's
run, so there's been a lot of recovery all around.
badth...@yahoo.com
"During an epic battle against LeFay, Jessica became stranded on the
astral plane, and was only to return years later with the aid of Tigra,
Doctor Strange, and several of the Avengers. She helped the Avengers a
couple of times, saving the life of Giant-Man, before moving to
Madripoor with her friend, B-grade actress Lindsay McCabe. By this
stage, Jessica had lost her bio-sting and immunity powers. Regardless,
she still managed to assist Wolverine in a number of adventures in
Madripoor.
Jessica recently returned to New York when Charlotte Witter (the
short-lived third Spider-Woman created by Doctor Octopus) absorbed her
remaining powers. After a confusing series of battles and
power-exchanges involving Julia Carpenter (the second Spider-Woman) and
Mattie Franklin (the fourth Spider-Woman), Jessica seems to have
regained her formidable abilities, although there is some evidence that
they are rather unstable."
But none of the fansites knows how she got her powers back. And if
her powers are back, does that mean that "pheremone" thing she had is
back as well. For those who never read her old series, it's like The
Beast wherein she gives off a strong pheremone that attracts people to
her. She took drugs to counteract it, but it had the side effect of
muting her powers. And retconning away The Viper as her mom is still a
mistake.
Jon J. Yeager
news:53Bce.13659$QR1....@fe04.lga...
>
> A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> was a good thing. If DC is defined by the big three (Superman, Batman,
> Wonder Woman), Marvel is defined by the big two, Spiderman and Wolverine.
> Both characters are iconic among fans and have become archetypes for other
> characters.
Iconic? But the fanboys here /swear/ there's nothing iconic about
Spider-Man! Surely you are mentally challenged to some degree. ;)
> Wolverine especially, given that half of the characters in Image are
> Wolverine clones. So if Avengers is seriously going to be touted as
> Marvel's flagship team book, he needs to be there.
I agree, I was all for the JLA'ing of the Avengers, despite Bendis
flip-flopping on the idea more times than Scott Dubin's opinion of Stan Lee.
> His entrance to the team in NA#5 has to be the worst in comicbook history.
> He gets stabbed in the throat with his own claws. By Spiderwoman, no less.
I AGREE. Good God, do I ever agree.
This is Bendis letting his Jessica fetish go WAY too far.
> Now I know Bendis was playing it up for laughs and probably to show that
> Jessica is a bad ass, but it ultimately lessens Wolverine's impact to the
> team.
Honestly? If I didn't already know who Wolverine was, after that intro, I
would now be looking at him like I used to look at Puck in Alpha Flight. The
token midget of the group, and the most expendable member.
Did Wolverine do /anything/ in NA#5 except trip over himself and fuck up?
Remember, he's the idiot that leaped into Sauron and powered him up. How
stupid was that considering the amount of experience with Sauron the X-Men
are supposed to have had?
> Even the statement of her "SHIELD training" was a bit nonsensical, given
> how many SHIELD agents he slaughtered in "Enemy of the
> State." And she was able to do it, when he had the element of
> surprise with the Savage Lands. That just shouldn't have happened.
But you forget the awesome power of the name Jessica. None of those other
agents were named Jessica. Sucks to be them!
> And then having Wolverine attacking Lykos/Sauron, despite the fact that
> out of all the people there, he knows how Sauron's powers work the best,
> was just dumb.
I should have figured you'd have covered this part. D'oh!
> A bit disappointing for me overall, given how much I was looking forward
> to Wolverine joining the team.
I wasn't impressed with this issue overall. To me it's like #3 with was just
decent. #4 was an out-of-the-park homer (mmm, beer) and the first two issues
were abominations.
Right now, the worst thing I can say about Bendis is he's extremely
inconsistent.
Jon
--
"I could have sworn I wrote that word for
word in that message you're misinterpreting;
but in your defense, I'll concede that I failed to
write it in caps."
Jon J. Yeager
news:1114879803....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Iron Man's armor is removed, somehow (means unknown), yet despite being
> intelligent enough to do that, Brainchild (I presume; here's a Web site
> that lists the Savage Land mutates:
> http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=19 ),
> doesn't disarm the armor or do anything to secure it.
>
> Yet another previously unknown feature of Iron Man's armor (the
> contrast with the armor in Ellis's IRON MAN is striking) is used at a
> critical point in the plot. The string of issues with retcons continues
> unbroken.
Explain how a technologically advanced armor that is constantly being
upgraded having new features being introduced every other issue consistutes
"retcons".
Jon J. Yeager
>
> : Yes, but I was trying to do Brian Cox ala Adaptation ;-)
>
> Worst. movie. ever.
You obviously haven't see The Avengers (Fiennes, Thurman).
Jon J. Yeager
>
> Stripping them naked was the sensible thing to do, for a variety of
> reason, not the least being psychological. The jokes were typical Bendis,
> whether you like it or not, but more importantly in showed that even in
> this "dire" circumstance, the heroes were cool as cucumbers (and damnit, I
> don't want any dick jokes over that last comment).
You have to admit, though, that Bendis missed a golden opportunity to make a
HUGE joke (pardon the pun) with regards to Cage's now-exposed privates.
AND YES, SHAWN, I AM REFERRING TO A COMMON STEREOTYPE.
Jon J. Yeager
>
> There's been previous discussion of Bendis tendency to characterize Luke
> as
> strong, silent, suave and thuggish muscle, IE, as a stereotype.
Here we go again.
Jon J. Yeager
>
> But my point is, in the context of the time, it wasn't a stereotype yet.
> It
> was new and different then. It's become a cliche since.
And how do things become cliché? When they happen often enough to become
somekind of rule.
Of course, in your reality, clichés and stereotypes have 0% of truth to them
100% of the time.
Jon J. Yeager
news:tZSce.15748$gA5.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> b) That doesn't make inventing racism where none exists right.
Dude, trust me. You won't talk Shawn out of it.
Google him up, for shits and giggles.
Jon J. Yeager
news:1114962431.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ethan Hoddes wrote:
>>
>> Considering that you'd have a hard time finding someone
>> who'd consider the writing of a "strong, silent, suave and
>> thuggish" black character damning evidence of
>> racism, and the seriousness of the charge of being a racist,
>> this doesn't provide anywhere NEAR adequate reason to
>> assume Bendis is a racist, and procede to make off-hand
>> jokes on that basis.
>
> yeah, at least Bendis doesn't have him saying "Sweet Christmas!" every
> five minutes, or some other attempt at a white guy making up things a
> black guy from the ghetto *might* say
>
> and I don't see any chains around his waist :)
Are you guys new to interacting with Shawn?
According to /him/, portraying Peter Parker as someone who can't dance is
re-enforcing a negative stereotype against WHITES. If Flash Thompson can
dance, that's not racist. But every white character who is written without
the ability to dance is a racist statement, no matter how many other white
characters around behave differently.
That's why portraying Wanda as weak in Disassembled was misogynistic, but
portraying the various Jessicas as strong isn't.
That's why portraying Luke Cage as strong and silent is racist.
The /only/ was to not be misogynistic, racist, homophobic or sexist,
according to Shawn, is to portray everyone as the EXACT OPPOSITE of how they
are traditionally portrayed, 100% of the time.
That means your Asians must be technologically incompetant, as well as
French-speaking.
After all, what could be MORE of a cliché than a Japanese guy speaking
Japanese? That is SO STEREOTYPICAL, and racist.
Jon J. Yeager
news:1114926178.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Like most people who are imitating success, The Powers That Be at
> Marvel are imitating the success of JLA without understand what really
> made it work.
They're selling 150,000 a month. I think they understand what made it work.
> And how the hell do Luke Cage, Spiderwoman and The Sentry factor into
> "JLA-ing" anything? These are hardly "top guns."
How does Plastic Man figure in the pantheon of Greek Gods?
JLA'ing the Avengers means putting Spider-Man and Wolverine on the team. The
JLA have had their share of unworthy members but Batman, Superman, and
Wonder Woman are near-constants. I mean hell, who the fuck is Martian
Manhunter, and why can't they build Sentry to become as popular just by
rubbing shoulders with the big guys? Who was Jo'nn Jo'snz'nn-sj before the
JLA? Spider-Woman could be Hawk-Girl. You need at least one girl there, and
I seriously doubt Hawk-Girl is considered #2 after Wonder Woman in the DCU.
Spidey and Wolverine are Marvel's Superman and Batman (minus the
relationship). Their presence is what JLA'ing the Avengers refers to.
Shawn H
: > Now I know Bendis was playing it up for laughs and probably to show that
: > Jessica is a bad ass, but it ultimately lessens Wolverine's impact to the
: > team.
: Honestly? If I didn't already know who Wolverine was, after that intro, I
: would now be looking at him like I used to look at Puck in Alpha Flight. The
: token midget of the group, and the most expendable member.
: Did Wolverine do /anything/ in NA#5 except trip over himself and fuck up?
: Remember, he's the idiot that leaped into Sauron and powered him up. How
: stupid was that considering the amount of experience with Sauron the X-Men
: are supposed to have had?
Not that it mattered, as Sauron wasn't what the story was about after all.
: Right now, the worst thing I can say about Bendis is he's extremely
: inconsistent.
Sure that's not the best thing?
Shawn
Ethan Hoddes
empowering, sure. But you can't deny that Cage's character was created as
the sort of tough, inner-city, black character that is now seen as a
stereotype. Moreover, a lot of comic book characters where based on common
stereotypes, just look at the original X-Men, the Head Prefect, the Class
Clown, the Nerd, the Golden Boy, and the Girl Next Door.
Regarding Stephen's comments being just a joke, and not serious, it's the
fact that they weren't made seriously, that he seemed to take it as given
that Bendis was a writer known for racism, which disturbed me. When comments
like that are made, and go unchallenged, a lot of people will assume that
this tendency is just common knowledge, supported by public comments, etc.
(like Orson Scott Card's homophobia, which IS a matter of public record).
This then proceeds to prejudice people against Bendis's work, seeing more
racism where none exists (if a black villain appears in another book, they
might not think twice, but in a book written by a person they already
believe to be racist, they'll take it as reinforcement). And becomes a
self-perpetuating cycle, that's why it's important to call out these
assumptions.
--
"Saints should always be judged guilty until proven innocent."-George Orwell
"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:d54622$gb3$2...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
David Henry
"Jon J. Yeager" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message
news:42765...@x-privat.org...
> <badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1114926178.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> Like most people who are imitating success, The Powers That Be at
>> Marvel are imitating the success of JLA without understand what really
>> made it work.
>
> They're selling 150,000 a month. I think they understand what made it
> work.
>
>> And how the hell do Luke Cage, Spiderwoman and The Sentry factor into
>> "JLA-ing" anything? These are hardly "top guns."
>
> How does Plastic Man figure in the pantheon of Greek Gods?
>
> JLA'ing the Avengers means putting Spider-Man and Wolverine on the team.
> The JLA have had their share of unworthy members but Batman, Superman, and
> Wonder Woman are near-constants. I mean hell, who the fuck is Martian
> Manhunter, and why can't they build Sentry to become as popular just by
> rubbing shoulders with the big guys? Who was Jo'nn Jo'snz'nn-sj before the
> JLA? Spider-Woman could be Hawk-Girl. You need at least one girl there,
> and I seriously doubt Hawk-Girl is considered #2 after Wonder Woman in the
> DCU.
>
> Spidey and Wolverine are Marvel's Superman and Batman (minus the
> relationship). Their presence is what JLA'ing the Avengers refers to.
The only problem with that is that SpiderMan and Wolverine aren't seen as
the top hierarchy on the team. Cap and Iron Man have that. They are the
stalwarts on the team. No matter how many times the Avengers change rosters,
Cap and IronMan remain, similar to SuperMan and Batman.
So far, Bendis is playing Spidey as a secondary character. Cap seems to baby
sit him, so far. SpiderMan is far more competent than Bendis is showing him
at the moment. Hopefully, that will change soon.
Dave
David Henry
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1115017064.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Well, technically everyone on the team but Cap could overpower him and
> do it, but the point is, they should never be able to (and you'd think
> he'd reflexively retract his claws).
He's the ... worst he is at what he does?
Dave
Shawn H
: Regarding Stephen's comments being just a joke, and not serious, it's the
: fact that they weren't made seriously, that he seemed to take it as given
: that Bendis was a writer known for racism, which disturbed me. When comments
: like that are made, and go unchallenged, a lot of people will assume that
: this tendency is just common knowledge, supported by public comments, etc.
: (like Orson Scott Card's homophobia, which IS a matter of public record).
What's common knowledge right now is that the Bendis backlash has indeed
begun, and that people are questioning his stories with more critical
eyes than a year or so ago when he was the emperor's latest suit.
: This then proceeds to prejudice people against Bendis's work, seeing more
: racism where none exists (if a black villain appears in another book, they
: might not think twice, but in a book written by a person they already
: believe to be racist, they'll take it as reinforcement). And becomes a
: self-perpetuating cycle, that's why it's important to call out these
: assumptions.
It's also important to call out writers if they perpetuate stereotypes,
with or without conscious intent.
Shawn
Shawn H
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
: >
: > But my point is, in the context of the time, it wasn't a stereotype yet.
: > It
: > was new and different then. It's become a cliche since.
: And how do things become clich?? When they happen often enough to become
: somekind of rule.
Not "things." In this case, fictive representations of people. There's a
world of difference between that and accepted attitudes towards
difference.
: Of course, in your reality, clich?s and stereotypes have 0% of truth to them
: 100% of the time.
Let's have this argument instead of an old one again.
Shawn
Shawn H
: >
: > : Yes, but I was trying to do Brian Cox ala Adaptation ;-)
: >
: > Worst. movie. ever.
: You obviously haven't see The Avengers (Fiennes, Thurman).
Luckily, no.
Shawn
Jon J. Yeager
news:UPidnTliAOz...@comcast.com...
>
> The only problem with that is that SpiderMan and Wolverine aren't seen as
> the top hierarchy on the team. Cap and Iron Man have that. They are the
> stalwarts on the team. No matter how many times the Avengers change
> rosters, Cap and IronMan remain, similar to SuperMan and Batman.
I agree - there's something really bizarre in the air in NA, and this has a
lot to do with it. While he's portrayed as a vigilante loner not interested
in spotlight, leadership or anykind of teamwork in his solo titles, the
Batman portrayed in JLA consistently reflects his standing in the real world
(not the DCU). That is, the biggest grossing superhero of all time (or close
to it) along with Superman and Spider-Man.
You have to admit, if Batman were real and so was the JLA, he'd be a
bit-part player at best on that roster. He's dark, shady, and could very
well be hiding dead bodies, all the while being relatively powerless. Having
the JLA fear and follow Batman's orders without question is kind of like the
Avengers accepting the same from Wolverine. Technically, to truly JLA the
Avengers, Wolverine would be to Cap what Batman is to Superman. He'd be the
#2 guy.
This seems to be a case of Bendis using logic where none was asked for.
Logically, there's no way Iron Man or Sentry would follow Wolverine's
orders... especially if you keep Wolverine mysterious and on a need-to-know
basis with everyone. But they have Batman as a #2 on JLA based on his sales
and his iconic standing in the /real/ world.
It works for them. No one questions the logic. Maybe no one would have
questioned it in the Avengers. Bendis didn't take that chance.
I'm not sure what my position on the subject is. Both make a strong case.
But if Bendis is going to use Wolverine as you would Puck on Alpha Flight,
then I say fuck logic, and just make him a lieutenant like Batman is. Can't
be worse than his handling of him now.
> So far, Bendis is playing Spidey as a secondary character. Cap seems to
> baby sit him, so far. SpiderMan is far more competent than Bendis is
> showing him at the moment. Hopefully, that will change soon.
Agreed. I'm secretly hoping for Spidey to just do what Aunt May taught him
and be nice to his elders, but sooner or later SNAP and put Cap in his
place, and remind Cap just who he's dealing with.
I would seriously mark out for this moment. And it's not entirely impossible
this is what Bendis is building to. A "I know I joke a lot but you're going
to respect me and the career I've had - I'm fucking Spider-Man for Christ's
sake" moment.
I'd wet my pants.
(And not by accident this time, like yesterday.)
Ethan Hoddes
posts alternating between Jon and Shawn. Regardless of this "backlash"
against Bendis, you can't take it as proven, by any stretch of the
imagination, that he's consistently racist. Stephen's comment DIDN'T "call
him out" for any current or past use of stereotypes. It made a side joke,
the effect of which was to assume that Bendis was a racist writer, this was
not responding to any actual line or portrayal in NA #5, or to any actual
record of racism.
--
"Saints should always be judged guilty until proven innocent."-George Orwell
"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:d55pm8$nho$3...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
Shawn H
: > Peter or Luke (even in the Savage Land) and even though I thought it
: > was ridiculous that Jessica went for the kill so quickly, I *do* think
: > it's possible for Jessica to overpower Logan. She's much faster and
: > agile than he is, plus she's a good 10 times stronger than he is.
: > Forcing his claws into Logan's throat wouldn't make her break a sweat.
: Agreed on all counts. Jessica could do what she did to Wolverine, it's that
: the writer allowed for it to happen that's interesting. Obviously, Bendis
: thought it okay to play up Spider Woman by diminishing Wolverine. Again,
: interesting.
: As far as Wolverine's senses go, I could see if he couldn't smell them from
: a mile away, but if he can't smell them (and recognize their voices, for
: that matter) from around a tree, then something's wrong.
Which is what Wolverine himself said. Savage Land was messing up his
senses, as something must if he is ever to be surprised or thrown off his
game.
Shawn
Shawn H
: But none of the fansites knows how she got her powers back. And if
Just say Byrne did it, and move on. Teasing out how is too painful to
contemplate.
: her powers are back, does that mean that "pheremone" thing she had is
: back as well. For those who never read her old series, it's like The
: Beast wherein she gives off a strong pheremone that attracts people to
: her. She took drugs to counteract it, but it had the side effect of
: muting her powers. And retconning away The Viper as her mom is still a
: mistake.
The Beast has love pheremones?
And I thought Jessica's instead instilled a palpable sense of dread,
warning people away from her rather than drawing them in?
Shawn
Shawn H
: Just to get in my last comment before this thread turns into the usual 50
I'm hoping to avoid that, really.
: against Bendis, you can't take it as proven, by any stretch of the
: imagination, that he's consistently racist. Stephen's comment DIDN'T "call
: him out" for any current or past use of stereotypes. It made a side joke,
: the effect of which was to assume that Bendis was a racist writer, this was
: not responding to any actual line or portrayal in NA #5, or to any actual
: record of racism.
His treatment of Cage in Alias, Pulse and now NA has raised racist
questions for some years. If SRS wants to make a snide allusion in a post,
well, it's virtually in the spirit that Bendis himself regularly writes
dialogue.
Shawn
Shawn H
: >>Wolverine kicks the crap
: out of half the MU, but a third-stringer like Spiderwoman sticks his
: own claws into his throat (I know he loves her, but come on, not even
: Elektra or Deathstrike could do this). <<
: --though I thought it was ridiculous that Logan didn't smell Jessica or
: Peter or Luke (even in the Savage Land) and even though I thought it
: was ridiculous that Jessica went for the kill so quickly, I *do* think
: it's possible for Jessica to overpower Logan. She's much faster and
: agile than he is, plus she's a good 10 times stronger than he is.
: Forcing his claws into Logan's throat wouldn't make her break a sweat.
But ... but ... she's a woman!? How can she be stronger?
Shawn
Shawn H
: > And how the hell do Luke Cage, Spiderwoman and The Sentry factor into
: > "JLA-ing" anything? These are hardly "top guns."
: How does Plastic Man figure in the pantheon of Greek Gods?
Trickster/Loki/Hermes/Messenger etc.
: JLA'ing the Avengers means putting Spider-Man and Wolverine on the team. The
: JLA have had their share of unworthy members but Batman, Superman, and
: Wonder Woman are near-constants. I mean hell, who the fuck is Martian
: Manhunter, and why can't they build Sentry to become as popular just by
: rubbing shoulders with the big guys? Who was Jo'nn Jo'snz'nn-sj before the
The Sentry is all untried potential, a very different version of the often
brutish Hyperion. He's one of Bendis' good ideas for the team.
: JLA? Spider-Woman could be Hawk-Girl. You need at least one girl there, and
: I seriously doubt Hawk-Girl is considered #2 after Wonder Woman in the DCU.
Spider-Woman has had a solo title, so she's more like Black Canary.
: Spidey and Wolverine are Marvel's Superman and Batman (minus the
: relationship). Their presence is what JLA'ing the Avengers refers to.
Which, it turns out, is different than "big-gunning" the Avengers after
all, right?
shawn h.
Nathan P. Mahney
The thing is, he pretty much portrays Cage the way he's always been
portrayed. Yes, it's a stereotype, but Cage is a stereotype and always has
been. He's Shaft-lite, and to write him any other way would be wrong.
--
- Nathan P. Mahney -
Writing:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/index.html
The Whole Story Comic Reviews:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/ReviewIndex.html
Gamebook Scenic Solutions:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/SSIndex.html
Nathan P. Mahney
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> : But none of the fansites knows how she got her powers back. And if
>
> Just say Byrne did it, and move on. Teasing out how is too painful to
> contemplate.
>
> : her powers are back, does that mean that "pheremone" thing she had is
> : back as well. For those who never read her old series, it's like The
> : Beast wherein she gives off a strong pheremone that attracts people to
> : her. She took drugs to counteract it, but it had the side effect of
> : muting her powers. And retconning away The Viper as her mom is still a
> : mistake.
>
> The Beast has love pheremones?
I believe he did, back in his Avengers days. It's not something that's come
up often, but it could explain why chicks like Trish Tilby would actually
date him. It's debatable whether he'd still have those powers now that he's
mutated again. Hell he demutated and remutated in the early X-Factor days -
it's possible that the pheromone powers have been absent since then.
Nathan P. Mahney
That bit seemed like a lazy copout to me. The Savage Land has never been
shown to mess with Wolvie's senses before (at least to my knowledge), so why
introduce the idea now for little discernable reason?
Jon J. Yeager
> Jon J. Yeager <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
>
> : > And how the hell do Luke Cage, Spiderwoman and The Sentry factor into
> : > "JLA-ing" anything? These are hardly "top guns."
>
> : How does Plastic Man figure in the pantheon of Greek Gods?
>
> Trickster/Loki/Hermes/Messenger etc.
er.. I think you missed the point of the question.
> : Spidey and Wolverine are Marvel's Superman and Batman (minus the
> : relationship). Their presence is what JLA'ing the Avengers refers to.
>
> Which, it turns out, is different than "big-gunning" the Avengers after
> all, right?
JLA'ing the Avengers doesn't have to mean "big-gunning" it, unless you
consider Hawk Girl and Plastic Man big guns. But whenever you add your two
most valuable properties to your flagship team book -- without removing
/any/ of the previous star power it had by keeping Cap and IM on board --
it's difficult to use any other term but "big-gunning".
Now, at least, the star power balances out. Which I think was Quesada's
goal.
Jon
MD
I liked the fact that Wolverine was so easily taken out by a second
string character (Spider-Woman). Yeah, I think Wolverine is way
overrated so it was a nice moment. Sure the many millions of
Wolverine fans will disagree
MD
Shawn H
: I liked the fact that Wolverine was so easily taken out by a second
: string character (Spider-Woman). Yeah, I think Wolverine is way
: overrated so it was a nice moment. Sure the many millions of
: Wolverine fans will disagree
And they do, but I'm with you. Jessica's not bad at what she does, either.
Shawn
Jon J. Yeager
news:e34d71l3l89a9thq1...@4ax.com...
I can't stand Wolverine, and I didn't buy that scene. Not being a fan of a
character shouldn't mean wanting to see that character suffer, even at the
cost of continuity or telling a good story.
Shawn, on the other hand, will undoubtedly be doing cartwheels that the
woman stuck it to the big hairy hetero alpha male, despite the cost to the
overall story.
Jon
--
"The only way to not be misogynistic, racist, homophobic
or sexist, according to Shawn, is to portray everyone as
the exact opposite of how they are traditionally portrayed.
That means your Asians must be technologically incom-
petant, as well as French-speaking. After all, what could
be MORE of a cliché than a Japanese guy speaking
Japanese? How stereotypical is that? And racist, natch."
Jeremy Henderson
<nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The Beast has love pheremones?
>
>I believe he did, back in his Avengers days.
Yep. It was the way they explained how anti-mutant hysteria was
sweeping the country, yet Beast was still an accepted and beloved
member of the Avengers.
No, of course that doesn't make any sense.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> >
> > The Beast has love pheremones?
>
> I believe he did, back in his Avengers days. It's not something that's come
> up often, but it could explain why chicks like Trish Tilby would actually
> date him.
Heck, it doesn't take a chemical to explain why girls would want to go
out with a brilliant, witty, living teddy bear.
(Or maybe I don't understand what "chicks like Trish Tilby" implies.)
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Blogging at http://www.comicsworthreading.com/blog/cwr.html
Shawn H
: > I liked the fact that Wolverine was so easily taken out by a second
: > string character (Spider-Woman). Yeah, I think Wolverine is way
: > overrated so it was a nice moment. Sure the many millions of
: > Wolverine fans will disagree
: I can't stand Wolverine, and I didn't buy that scene. Not being a fan of a
: character shouldn't mean wanting to see that character suffer, even at the
: cost of continuity or telling a good story.
: Shawn, on the other hand, will undoubtedly be doing cartwheels that the
: woman stuck it to the big hairy hetero alpha male, despite the cost to the
: overall story.
Actually, Wolverine is short and hairy. I have no problem seeing him as the
Puck of the Avengers. He's a scruffy little mutt compared to the best and
brightest of the Marvel U.
Maybe not compared to the New Avengers, but, he's lucking out there.
Shawn
Shawn H
: > His treatment of Cage in Alias, Pulse and now NA has raised racist
: > questions for some years. If SRS wants to make a snide allusion in a post,
: > well, it's virtually in the spirit that Bendis himself regularly writes
: > dialogue.
: The thing is, he pretty much portrays Cage the way he's always been
: portrayed. Yes, it's a stereotype, but Cage is a stereotype and always has
: been. He's Shaft-lite, and to write him any other way would be wrong.
Not at all. Characters are updated and transformed regularly. That Uncle
Tom's Cabin was an important and well-written book for its time doesn't
mean I still want to be reading "Uncle Toms" today. Bendis has an
obligation as an innovative and contemporary writer to challenge himself
and his readers, to do better than just replicating the mistakes or limited
ideas of the past. The principle that applies to Wanda applies here;
don't descend to the worst levels of obvious stereotype, but instead do
something unexpected and fresh.
He's already written Cage with more reflection and more insight than he's
usually been given credit for in Alias; no reason to backslide into "strong
silent gangsta" at this point that I can see.
Shawn
Shawn H
: news:t1Qce.6347$cZ6....@fe02.lga...
: >
: > Stripping them naked was the sensible thing to do, for a variety of
: > reason, not the least being psychological. The jokes were typical Bendis,
: > whether you like it or not, but more importantly in showed that even in
: > this "dire" circumstance, the heroes were cool as cucumbers (and damnit, I
: > don't want any dick jokes over that last comment).
: You have to admit, though, that Bendis missed a golden opportunity to make a
: HUGE joke (pardon the pun) with regards to Cage's now-exposed privates.
: AND YES, SHAWN, I AM REFERRING TO A COMMON STEREOTYPE.
Promulgating the obvious, really.
Shawn
David Henry
"Jon J. Yeager" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message
news:4276a76f$1...@x-privat.org...
> "MD" <reap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e34d71l3l89a9thq1...@4ax.com...
>>
>> I liked the fact that Wolverine was so easily taken out by a second
>> string character (Spider-Woman). Yeah, I think Wolverine is way
>> overrated so it was a nice moment. Sure the many millions of
>> Wolverine fans will disagree
>
> I can't stand Wolverine, and I didn't buy that scene. Not being a fan of a
> character shouldn't mean wanting to see that character suffer, even at the
> cost of continuity or telling a good story.
Exactly. I dislike Wolverine, myself. I'm tired of seeing him. He hasn't
been any good since the Claremont/Paul Smith era. It's been all downhill
since.
Like you point out, though, it's about the integrity of the character. I
didn't buy Wolverine allowing himself to be overtaken by Spider Woman.
Wolverine's plenty fast and has ninja training. I don't think SHIELD traning
defeats that.
No matter who did it, having Wolverine's claws pushed through his own neck
was just silly. It's a discredit to the charcter. Why not have SpiderMan get
tangled up in his own webbing, have Captain America get hit in the head with
his own shield off a riccochet, etc.? It's something you would expect in
GLA, not New Avengers.
Dave
Robert Wiacek
> "Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
> news:1114879803....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Iron Man's armor is removed, somehow (means unknown), yet despite being
>> intelligent enough to do that, Brainchild (I presume; here's a Web site
>> that lists the Savage Land mutates:
>> http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=19 ),
>> doesn't disarm the armor or do anything to secure it.
>>
>> Yet another previously unknown feature of Iron Man's armor (the
>> contrast with the armor in Ellis's IRON MAN is striking) is used at a
>> critical point in the plot. The string of issues with retcons continues
>> unbroken.
>
> Explain how a technologically advanced armor that is constantly being
> upgraded having new features being introduced every other issue
> consistutes "retcons".
And as I pointed out earlier, in the recent Avengers/Thunderbolt the
Iron-Man suit was able to operate without Tony inside it.
Rob
The Babaloughesian
"Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42768348$0$12798$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Layers, baby! Layers!
--
Plus, a big machine threatening you is probably more scary than a black
guy.
- http://tinyurl.com/aol36
Mike
>>
>> A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> His entrance to the team in NA#5 has to be the worst in comicbook
>> history. He gets stabbed in the throat with his own claws. By
>> Spiderwoman, no less.
>
> I AGREE. Good God, do I ever agree.
>
> This is Bendis letting his Jessica fetish go WAY too far.
As opposed to every writer in the last 20 years letting Marvel's overall
Wolverine fetish go ridiculously overboard?
Logan challenged someone who is his physical superior and could hand his ass
to him on the plate...and she did. The "fight" (if you can even call it
that) came to it's realistic conclusion...
...which is the first time that's happened to Logan in YEARS. Any other
writer would have allowed him to beat fucking Galactus.
Mike
>>
>> Stripping them naked was the sensible thing to do, for a variety of
>> reason, not the least being psychological. The jokes were typical Bendis,
>> whether you like it or not, but more importantly in showed that even in
>> this "dire" circumstance, the heroes were cool as cucumbers (and damnit,
>> I don't want any dick jokes over that last comment).
>
> You have to admit, though, that Bendis missed a golden opportunity to make
> a HUGE joke (pardon the pun) with regards to Cage's now-exposed privates.
>
> AND YES, SHAWN, I AM REFERRING TO A COMMON STEREOTYPE.
Yeah, but that one's true.
Shawn H
: No matter who did it, having Wolverine's claws pushed through his own neck
: was just silly. It's a discredit to the charcter. Why not have SpiderMan get
: tangled up in his own webbing, have Captain America get hit in the head with
: his own shield off a riccochet, etc.? It's something you would expect in
: GLA, not New Avengers.
A discredit to the character you don't care about? It's not like it hurt
him. People have used Cap's own shield against him, just as Thor's hammer
has occasionally been used against him.
Shawn
Robert Wiacek
"Mike" <woofh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:CrDde.4748$VL3.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Jon J. Yeager" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message
> news:427654d0$1...@x-privat.org...
>> "Robert Wiacek" <rwi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
>> news:53Bce.13659$QR1....@fe04.lga...
>>>
>>> A little spoiler space for those of you who haven't read New Avengers #5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> His entrance to the team in NA#5 has to be the worst in comicbook
>>> history. He gets stabbed in the throat with his own claws. By
>>> Spiderwoman, no less.
>>
>> I AGREE. Good God, do I ever agree.
>>
>> This is Bendis letting his Jessica fetish go WAY too far.
>
>
>
> As opposed to every writer in the last 20 years letting Marvel's overall
> Wolverine fetish go ridiculously overboard?
Really? Have you been actually reading the comics or just what other person
post here about Wolverine? Even in "Enemy of the State," a story which is
suppose to establish Wolverine as Marvel's bad-ass, Wolverine couldn't
handle Elecktra or Daredevil. In Uncanny, Storm beats Wolverine with a
wooden sword and then Bishop follows it up with his own beating. Just a few
issues earlier, X-23 punks Wolverine. X-23!?!? Over in Astonishing X-men, he
couldn't beat Beast.
I'm a Wolverine fan and I can't think of the last time he beat someone of
consequence straight up.
The problem is that every writer seems to think that the key to writing a
good Wolverine story is to show his healing factor and so he gets beaten up,
heals up, and then wins. It as if he can't win when he's at 100%, but when
he's down at about 20% then he's unbeatable.
> Logan challenged someone who is his physical superior and could hand his
> ass to him on the plate...and she did. The "fight" (if you can even call
> it that) came to it's realistic conclusion...
No one would question if Captain America beat Spider-Woman. He's Captain
America afterall. But Wolverine, who has as much training and experience (if
not more), who has gone toe-to-toe with the Hulk on a few occassions, who
had the drop on Spider-Woman in the freakin' jungle, and this is some kind
of realistic conclusion...
Look, I don't like Hawkeye. I have always thought he was a stupid character
with a stupid gimmick. But if some writer would create stories where Hawkeye
missed with his cute little bow and arrow, and miss repeatily for no reason,
then that would annoy me.
> ...which is the first time that's happened to Logan in YEARS. Any other
> writer would have allowed him to beat fucking Galactus.
Wolverine and Galactus met during a Larsen story arc. Wolverine didn't win.
I don't think Galactus even noticed him.
Rob
David Henry
I don't really care about Wolverine, but certain things just shouldn't
happen. Otherwise, they lessen the character's established
abilities/credentials. Also, I don't think you would have see SpiderWoman do
that to Wolverine if Claremont were writing this scene -- particularly in an
X-book.
If Wolverine is the best there is at what he does, there are many things
that should never happen to him. He should always be a step ahead of the
competition.
Let's be real, though. Even the letters page in ish 5 stated that
SpiderWoman is one of Bendis' favorite characters. He obviously created that
scene to lend credibility to Jessica Drew.
Dave
Robert Wiacek
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in
message news:johannaNOSPAM-E95...@news.uswest.net...
> "Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote
>> >
>> > The Beast has love pheremones?
>>
>> I believe he did, back in his Avengers days. It's not something that's
>> come
>> up often, but it could explain why chicks like Trish Tilby would actually
>> date him.
>
> Heck, it doesn't take a chemical to explain why girls would want to go
> out with a brilliant, witty, living teddy bear.
Yeah, money will usually do the trick.
Rob
David Johnston
wrote:
>
>If Wolverine is the best there is at what he does,
What Wolverine is best at, is "taking a beating".
Nathan P. Mahney
I haven't read Alias, but I do read The Pulse, and I've enjoyed his
portrayal of Cage over there. I think Bendis does enough to break away from
the stereotype while still maintaining the stereotype. I agree with you
that this is something that has to be done - characters get boring when
they're nothing but a group of cliches strung together. On the other hand,
the stereotype is who Cage is, and who he's always been. There's been a lot
of interesting facets to his character over the years, but his
blaxploitation roots are what the character will always return to.
As for New Avengers, it's an ensemble. Bendis is still introducing his
characters, so he's playing them broadly for now - that's why Cage is a
"gangsta thug" and Spidey is a wisecracking incompetent. Hopefully we'll
see some more rounded characters when and if Bendis gets a better grasp of
writing a team book.
Me, I'm just waiting for Stark Tower to install a soda machine!
Nathan P. Mahney
message news:johannaNOSPAM-E95...@news.uswest.net...
> > "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote
> > >
> > > The Beast has love pheremones?
> >
> > I believe he did, back in his Avengers days. It's not something that's
come
> > up often, but it could explain why chicks like Trish Tilby would
actually
> > date him.
>
> Heck, it doesn't take a chemical to explain why girls would want to go
> out with a brilliant, witty, living teddy bear.
>
> (Or maybe I don't understand what "chicks like Trish Tilby" implies.)
No implication, I just thought I'd bring up Trish Tilby as my example woman.
I honestly don't think that in real life many women would go out with Hank,
even with his awesome wit. He really is a pretty freaky looking guy.
Nathan P. Mahney
message news:6fdd71pft0qne2122...@4ax.com...
Those pheromones have some range on 'em!
Nathan P. Mahney
I'm plenty sick of Wolverine myself, but scenes like this are just one
reason that the character has become a joke. He's constantly played up as
the greatest, yet he's been "killed" a hundred times over. He has no
credibility any more. Add that to the now ludicrous speed of his healing
factor, and you have a character that I just don't care to read about
anymore. I remember when being run through with a sword would have had
Wolverine recuperating for days, and I liked that guy a whole lot more.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> "Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote
> >
> > out with a brilliant, witty, living teddy bear.
> >
> > (Or maybe I don't understand what "chicks like Trish Tilby" implies.)
>
> No implication, I just thought I'd bring up Trish Tilby as my example woman.
> I honestly don't think that in real life many women would go out with Hank,
> even with his awesome wit. He really is a pretty freaky looking guy.
I'm more optimistic. A lot of women learn early that looks aren't really
that important.
Nathan P. Mahney
message news:johannaNOSPAM-19E...@news.uswest.net...
> "Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote
> > >
> > > Heck, it doesn't take a chemical to explain why girls would want to go
> > > out with a brilliant, witty, living teddy bear.
> > >
> > > (Or maybe I don't understand what "chicks like Trish Tilby" implies.)
> >
> > No implication, I just thought I'd bring up Trish Tilby as my example
woman.
> > I honestly don't think that in real life many women would go out with
Hank,
> > even with his awesome wit. He really is a pretty freaky looking guy.
>
> I'm more optimistic. A lot of women learn early that looks aren't really
> that important.
>
I don't have quite so much faith in the human race. Hank would probably be
locked up and classified as a talking monkey before he even got close to a
woman.
David Henry
"Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42775fbb$0$12805$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> news:d571nm$6op$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
>> David Henry <telem...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> : No matter who did it, having Wolverine's claws pushed through his own
> neck
>> : was just silly. It's a discredit to the charcter. Why not have
>> SpiderMan
> get
>> : tangled up in his own webbing, have Captain America get hit in the head
> with
>> : his own shield off a riccochet, etc.? It's something you would expect
>> in
>> : GLA, not New Avengers.
>>
>> A discredit to the character you don't care about? It's not like it hurt
>> him. People have used Cap's own shield against him, just as Thor's
>> hammer has occasionally been used against him.
>
> I'm plenty sick of Wolverine myself, but scenes like this are just one
> reason that the character has become a joke. He's constantly played up as
> the greatest, yet he's been "killed" a hundred times over. He has no
> credibility any more. Add that to the now ludicrous speed of his healing
> factor, and you have a character that I just don't care to read about
> anymore. I remember when being run through with a sword would have had
> Wolverine recuperating for days, and I liked that guy a whole lot more.
Yep, back to the Claremont/Paul Smith era (Silver Samurai). He's long gone.
Dave
Ethan Hoddes
Seinfeld who said "Let me tell you, these pigmen would be getting all kinds
of women. No matter how disgusting the deformity, there will always be women
who find it a turn on. 'Oh, the little curly tail is just so cute.'"
--
"Saints should always be judged guilty until proven innocent."-George Orwell
"Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42776ec6$0$12803$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Shawn H
: Let's be real, though. Even the letters page in ish 5 stated that
: SpiderWoman is one of Bendis' favorite characters. He obviously created that
: scene to lend credibility to Jessica Drew.
And it worked!
Shawn
Shawn H
: I don't have quite so much faith in the human race. Hank would probably be
: locked up and classified as a talking monkey before he even got close to a
: woman.
I'm glad I missed the pheremone explanation, if there was such, back in
the day, as I always took it to be Hank's wit and celebrity that made him
attractive to women. IE, he didn't code as demonic as Nightcrawler did
(poor German gothic boy), but rather as cuddly as Johanna says. He was
manly and strong, but his dialogue marked him as intelligent, witty,
sensitive. No extra super-power explanation needed.
Sort of like how the apes in the Planet of the Apes sequel where they came
to 1970s America became media stars.
Shawn
Shawn H
: As for New Avengers, it's an ensemble. Bendis is still introducing his
: characters, so he's playing them broadly for now - that's why Cage is a
: "gangsta thug" and Spidey is a wisecracking incompetent. Hopefully we'll
: see some more rounded characters when and if Bendis gets a better grasp of
: writing a team book.
I agree that Bendis is capable of updating Cage cleverly and keeping him
interesting, and I hope he will. But there is a danger of failing at that,
and that's what SRS was joking about, I think with complete fairness.
: Me, I'm just waiting for Stark Tower to install a soda machine!
I'm waiting for Spidey to save the day. Either of them!
Shawn
Nathan P. Mahney
It did, but there were ways to do it without tearing down Wolverine in the
process. Bendis has a track record of portraying Wolverine as a stupid,
uncaring buffoon, and I hope to god that he writes the character differently
in New Avengers. So far, my hopes aren't high, but I'm enjoying other parts
of the book enough to keep reading.
Jeremy Henderson
wrote:
>I don't really care about Wolverine, but certain things just shouldn't
>happen. Otherwise, they lessen the character's established
>abilities/credentials. Also, I don't think you would have see SpiderWoman do
>that to Wolverine if Claremont were writing this scene -- particularly in an
>X-book.
Didn't Claremont recently write a scene where Storm beat Wolverine in
a sword fight?
And Spider-Woman does have super-strength, so simply bending someone's
arm shouldn't be too difficult a feat for her.