Civil War #4: Minority characters (Spoilers)
Mikejo...@aol.com
also know that the character has not been seen in the Marvel Universe
for about 5 years as far as I know but...
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
They freaking had to kill the guy!! Not no mention he went out without
getting a blow in. This is really pissing me off.
Here you have a Black character who dates back to Marvel's Silver Age
but unlike Luke Cage never had a criminal past or was retconned to have
one (like the Falcon). Unlike the Black Panther who came from a
mythical African nation where the Blacks are smarter, tougher and more
technically advanced than the american variety of Blacks (and Whites
for that matter) the character was a scientist and he was in charge of
stuff (Stark West in the 70's). Hell, in he short-lived series he had a
fairly realistic personal life by comics book standards (divorced,
keeping company with a single mom).
In a way I'm suprised he lasted as long as he did. It seems like Marvel
is only interested in the most un-nuanced portrayal of
African-Americans possible: The street smart Luke Cage, the oddly
hardened Falcon (since when was calling people sellouts a part of HIS
character?)
Coming on the relative heels of the death of the original White Tiger
(who ALSO died an ignoble unheroic death), I have to wonder if anyone
at Marvel aside from Priest and Hudlin-(who have their faults too don't
get me wrong) have any interest in their minority readership.
You can be wise and noble in Marvel if you're African (Storm, Black
Panther), but Hispanic ? (White Tiger-dead, Bantam-dead) Afro-American?
(Prowler-jailed, Battlestar-jailed, Night Thrasher-dead,
Giant-Man-dead). If you're Afro-American and not the near-iconic Cage
and Falcon things don't seem to work out too well do they?
Comments?
Mikejo...@aol.com
It seems for Google's purposes I did not put the required amount of
spoiler space. I aploigise for the oversight.
MarkRRose
Punisher is white and he's always in jail...
Mark
Vic Vega
Heh. Yeah, but in comics hardnosed badassery is kewl. Besides he gets
out of jail so often and easily, it's purely at will incareration for
him. You know, get arrested deliberately, kill some locked-up skell and
escape before lunch...(unless its meatloaf day. Frank loves him some
meatloaf.)
I doubt say Prowler (can this guy EVER catch as break?) will be as
fortunate.
Peter Mason
> Okay, so I know that Giant Man is a C-list character at best. And I
> also know that the character has not been seen in the Marvel Universe
> for about 5 years as far as I know but...
>
>
> Spoiler Space
>
>
>
> Spoiler Space
>
>
>
> Spoiler Space
>
>
>
> Spoiler Space
>
>
>
>
> They freaking had to kill the guy!! Not no mention he went out without
> getting a blow in. This is really pissing me off.
>
> Here you have a Black character who dates back to Marvel's Silver Age
> but unlike Luke Cage never had a criminal past or was retconned to have
> one (like the Falcon).
Which I guess makes him far less interesting than Falcon or Cage and
whose merits are primarily because he is black. As for Falcon making
him a former criminal is probably far more interesting than his
original origin of being a former social worker.
> Hell, in he short-lived series he had a
> fairly realistic personal life by comics book standards (divorced,
> keeping company with a single mom).
But thats boring.
> In a way I'm suprised he lasted as long as he did. It seems like Marvel
> is only interested in the most un-nuanced portrayal of
> African-Americans possible: The street smart Luke Cage, the oddly
> hardened Falcon (since when was calling people sellouts a part of HIS
> character?)
I'd think Marvel would disagree with you on Cage and Falcon not being
nuanced considering they've some of their best writers like Brubaker
and Bendis working on them.
> Coming on the relative heels of the death of the original White Tiger
> (who ALSO died an ignoble unheroic death), I have to wonder if anyone
> at Marvel aside from Priest and Hudlin-(who have their faults too don't
> get me wrong) have any interest in their minority readership.
Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
DC already does it.
> You can be wise and noble in Marvel if you're African (Storm, Black
> Panther), but Hispanic ? (White Tiger-dead, Bantam-dead)
Isn't there a new hispanic white tiger?
> Afro-American?
> (Prowler-jailed, Battlestar-jailed, Night Thrasher-dead,
> Giant-Man-dead). If you're Afro-American and not the near-iconic Cage
> and Falcon things don't seem to work out too well do they?
I'd argue that those that have been killed aren't as interesting and
whose only singular identifying characteristic is that they're black.
Vic Vega
Peter Mason wrote:
>Which I guess makes him far less interesting than Falcon or Cage and
>whose merits are primarily because he is black. As for Falcon making
>him a former criminal is probably far more interesting than his
>original origin of being a former social worker.
Falcon as idealistic sidekick to Captain America is (to me anyway) just
as creatively valid as the ex-hood angle. Not necessarly better mind
you-just as good. Also the whole Bronze Age metric of Black American
Male Protagonist=Ex-hood I find irksome. Especially since I am Black
and from Harlem myself.
> I'd think Marvel would disagree with you on Cage and Falcon not being
> nuanced considering they've some of their best writers like Brubaker
> and Bendis working on them.
Hey, I've been a fan of both characters from the start. I also enjoy
Brubaker and Bendis (although Bendis is begining to annoy me a bit
lately). However, aren't there other personas available for these
character aside from the Sam L. Jackson archetype?
> Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
> populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
> DC already does it.
Considering 1) I and my friends are (or actually were) the
above-mentioned minority audience-and if New York City comic shops are
any indication; a fairly large portion, I think and 2) mainstream
comics DESPERATELY need to expand their market period, yeah I think its
not a bad idea. If anything DC's main problem is execution-but that's
another thread I think;)
> Isn't there a new hispanic white tiger?
Yes. The niece of the original, I think.
> I'd argue that those that have been killed aren't as interesting and
> whose only singular identifying characteristic is that they're black.
3 out of the mentioned above have had a least a mini-series devoted to
them. Night Thrasher had a mini and a regular series in the 90's. My
point is simply that there is an audience that is not only not being
serviced but possibly alienated as well.
Hope the above was clear. I'm new to this newsgroup stuff.
badth...@yahoo.com
>
> Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
> populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
> DC already does it.
>
Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
Peter Mason
Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
to minorities to me.
> and why is it bad?
Are any of these groups major buyers of DC comics? If not then it's a
worthless effort.
Vic Vega
I would think the point is to attain readers beyond the typical comic
book fan base. After all its not like the potential audience is non
existant. My own experience tell me that the Black/Hispanic/Asian
exists. My observation tells me that the other fanbases exist also.
It DC's (and Marvel's) task to get the potential fanbases to read their
books instead of say Manga.
Also when DC/Vertigo was publishing Sandman you actually had a fanbase
that was actually more diverse that the traditional comic book
audience (females, gays, lesbians,etc). Game of You wasn't written by
accident, y'know-- by that time Gaiman very likely knew who his
readership was.
Vic Vega
That's Black/Hispanic/Asian FANBASE exists, dammit.
badth...@yahoo.com
Peter Mason wrote:
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
> > > populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
> > > DC already does it.
> > >
> > Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
>
> Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
> America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
> to minorities to me.
>
20 years, so it's hardly "catering." It's more like "who can we use to
broaden our shrinking audience that we can afford to lose." Note how
they mostly represent the larger world market (Asian and
spanish-speaking).
John Stewart doesn't have his own solo book as GL. Wonder Woman wasn't
replaced by Philippus. Somehow there are no minority orphans in Gotham
City to be taken in by Bruce Wayne. That's catering. When the big
guns are changed without logic or reason to "add some color" to the
detriment of stories.
And you forgot to say why it's bad.
bar...@shentel.net
Peter Mason wrote:
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
> > > populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
> > > DC already does it.
> > >
> > Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
>
> Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
> America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
> to minorities to me.
And yet, making everyone of them white is just as unlikely.
>
> > and why is it bad?
>
> Are any of these groups major buyers of DC comics? If not then it's a
> worthless effort.
Maybe they aren't but I'm not going to be turned off a book, just
because someone is a different nationality than me.
JLB
Donnacha
"Peter Mason" <tanke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158873726.6...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
are likely to be lesbians. Nothing cliched, just the lesbians I've known
have tended to disregard the usual "this is for boys and this is for girls"
crap that probably turns off many female readers. Also, dykes probably like
the ridiculously large boobs as much as the geeky fanboys ;)
D.
Tigers692
Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one in
marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
native religion is different then the western culture! I mean they have
forge who is a mystic for no reason. And then there is thunderbird who
died on the X-mens first couple of issues!! What the heck, not only
that but he is one of the few that really died....no coming back for
him.
Vic Vega
Not new, true, I was just venting.I remember really liking Thunderbird
back in the day. You have a point about Forge. What was your opinion
on Shaman's Tears or Scout? Have the creators of these properties ever
even spoken to a minority at all? I get the feeling no. When writers
can't tell the difference between Washington Hights in NY and Santa
Domingo in P.R. (no lie) they are some serious issues at hand. What
would it hurt to actually ask somebody of the ethinic group in
question: "is this B.S. or not?" .
Hamburger
> but unlike Luke Cage never had a criminal past or was retconned to have
> one (like the Falcon). Unlike the Black Panther who came from a
> mythical African nation where the Blacks are smarter, tougher and more
> technically advanced than the american variety of Blacks (and Whites
> for that matter) the character was a scientist and he was in charge of
> stuff (Stark West in the 70's). Hell, in he short-lived series he had a
> fairly realistic personal life by comics book standards (divorced,
> keeping company with a single mom).
>
> In a way I'm suprised he lasted as long as he did. It seems like Marvel
> is only interested in the most un-nuanced portrayal of
> African-Americans possible: The street smart Luke Cage, the oddly
> hardened Falcon (since when was calling people sellouts a part of HIS
> character?)
>
> Panther), but Hispanic ? (White Tiger-dead, Bantam-dead) Afro-American?
> (Prowler-jailed, Battlestar-jailed, Night Thrasher-dead,
> Giant-Man-dead). If you're Afro-American and not the near-iconic Cage
> and Falcon things don't seem to work out too well do they?
>
> Comments?
Interesting discussion, and I hope I don't sound biased or racist or
any of those other labels that we humans place upon ourselves. For the
record I believe those labels and mentalities will be around for a long
time from now(my three-year-old son's grand children will still feel
the breeze from our history). Back to the main point (and I'm sure this
will spark a dicussion) I'm not sure why no one has mentioned the idea
behind the X-Men ... Stan Lee said in an interview (not a direct quote)
that the idea behind the X-Men came from the civil rights movement and
the X from Malcolm X. Outcasts from white America. Sure at first the
X-men were all-white so that the majority of white readers who could
afford these books would be able to accept them, but were later (the
early 70's) slightly diversified.
Another thing about the DC comics (I apologize for any mistakes, but)
was that they are a part of a larger Time/Warner HUGE corporation which
bought out a small black comics company back in the 90's Milestone or
Vertigo or whatever the name was (I'm sure somebody will correct me).
Then shortly after that "destroyed" or cancelled most if not all the
main black ("black" will be substituted for African-American if you
haven't already noticed ... politically correct or not ... why aren't
whites called Euro-Americans?) ... I had a lot more to say about this
but I apologize for my short attention span and poor typing skills.
On to my next line of BS. If you take a look at Marvel's recent (the
past decade or so) Silver Screen success it seems to have started with
Blade. Also Marvel's first Silver Screen Trilogy the next as I
emphasized earlier was the X-Men. So there ya go. Let me hear your
comments and don't be afraid to be a lil racy (but if ya have to be
racy then try not to publish your racy-ness here but e-mail me
personally and I'll try to translate your thoughts without offending
anyone.
One last thing ... if this planet is to survive (and I welcome anyone
'open-minded' to challenge my opinions) we must somehow eliminate these
racial barriers not just white and black, but every culture, faith, and
religion. And I have a few ideas of some comic characters that would
make a good example. First one(s) the Rock and/or Vin Diesel ... Prime
examples of some good characters who kick ass and take names. Think of
the good guy bay guy combo those two would make ... of course Vin
Diesel would probably make the more respectable 'bad-guy' (but so
what, I usually root for the bad-guy). My reason for selecting these
two is because they cross the racial and cultural boundaries ... both
guys are of mixed nationalities. My opinion is that someday that maybe
will or will not occur in the far far future all humans will be of
mixed nationalities and cultures ... and no disrepect but, maybe humans
have outgrown the need for religion (not outgrown God, but outgrown the
false prophets written down and passed on from Man) ... I mean gimme a
break all these different religions and philosophies can't all be
'right' and/or wrong ... I mean look at all the wars this has incurred.
Well that is just an opinion one of many flexible opinions until I am
inspired by a new one and not locked in to any specific belief.
My 'bad-guy' would have to have superior super-powers than my
'good-guy' but my 'good-guy' would have superior leadership
skills/intellect (the ability to use the collective conscience of
like-minded individuals and ability to influence others with his
actions and show of spirit) .... I need names for these heroes/villains
... I also need sidekix ... powerful sidekicks to follow these
characters. Gimme your feed back and I will try and post this same
message on my local group ... I also need some new powers or some old
powers with a new twist/perk
http://groups.google.com/group/ClarksVegas2006
Thanx for reading my BS and please don't take it too seriously.
Martin Phipps
> One last thing ... if this planet is to survive (and I welcome anyone
> 'open-minded' to challenge my opinions) we must somehow eliminate these
> racial barriers not just white and black, but every culture, faith, and
> religion.
Right on.
> First one(s) the Rock and/or Vin Diesel ... Prime
> examples of some good characters who kick ass and take names. Think of
> the good guy bay guy combo those two would make ... of course Vin
> Diesel would probably make the more respectable 'bad-guy' (but so
> what, I usually root for the bad-guy). My reason for selecting these
> two is because they cross the racial and cultural boundaries ... both
> guys are of mixed nationalities.
Say it. You mean mixed race.
> My opinion is that someday that maybe
> will or will not occur in the far far future all humans will be of
> mixed nationalities and cultures
Races and cultures. Sure. This will happen sooner than you think.
Most people in Manitoba are metis, that is they have at least some
native ancestry. I would estimate that a slight majority of Filipinos
have at least some Spanish ancestry. How many "white" people in the
United States already have some negro blood and don't know it? How
many "black" American, descended from slaves, *don't* have at least
some mixed ancestry. Even South Africa has a significant "coloured"
population. Have you noticed how "black" people in Africa tend to be a
lot darker than "black" people in America? The fact that Vin Diesel
and Maria Carrey are accepted as "white" even though they have at least
one "black" parent just goes to show that we have already reached a
time when we can't easily identify what race people belong to. In
another couple of generations, the term "race" will start to lose its
meaning in America: race will be a term used to describe recent
immigrants because most Americans will be of mixed race. Hispanic
isn't really a race by the way: to be hispanic means to share
something, either language or ancestry or both, with Spain. A lot of
"hispanic" people are mostly "white".
What will take longer though is for people to stop identifying physical
characteristics with race. There was a time when blonde hair meant you
had Germanic ancestry: now it could mean you used bleach. If one day,
everybody will have brown skin, light brown hair and vaguely almond
shaped eyes then that will mean that all women will look like Tyra
Banks. Damn. If only I could live long enough to see that!
Martin
Liliaeth
Well I don't know about you, but if they aren't buyers, shouldn't dc do
the effort to make them readers?
I know that creating some female heroes might seem like catering to the
female readers (and the male ones unfortunately, considering the stuff
they're made to wear), but that just meant that more girls got
interested in comics.
(we don't all like romance comics you know)
It might be hard to understand, but catering do different groups of
readers is a good thing. It means you expand your readerbase, which
means more proffit.
Lore
Liliaeth
Donnacha schreef:
Actually, most female readers that I know, including me, just like
ogling the (half)naked boys. Jackie Estacado, Dick Grayson, Peter
Parker, ... do you need any more reasons to be into comics...
Well aside of the great stories that is*g*
Lore
Shawn H
: Okay, so I know that Giant Man is a C-list character at best. And I
: also know that the character has not been seen in the Marvel Universe
: for about 5 years as far as I know but...
: Spoiler Space
: Spoiler Space
: Spoiler Space
: Spoiler Space
: They freaking had to kill the guy!! Not no mention he went out without
: getting a blow in. This is really pissing me off.
: Here you have a Black character who dates back to Marvel's Silver Age
: but unlike Luke Cage never had a criminal past or was retconned to have
: one (like the Falcon). Unlike the Black Panther who came from a
: mythical African nation where the Blacks are smarter, tougher and more
: technically advanced than the american variety of Blacks (and Whites
: for that matter) the character was a scientist and he was in charge of
: stuff (Stark West in the 70's). Hell, in he short-lived series he had a
: fairly realistic personal life by comics book standards (divorced,
: keeping company with a single mom).
His first story, in Avengers, was also an anti-racism story. He was
fighting the white power aims of the 60s Sons of the Serpent.
: In a way I'm suprised he lasted as long as he did. It seems like Marvel
: is only interested in the most un-nuanced portrayal of
: African-Americans possible: The street smart Luke Cage, the oddly
: hardened Falcon (since when was calling people sellouts a part of HIS
: character?)
They didn't write Goliath's character at all; they just used him as cannon
fodder.
: You can be wise and noble in Marvel if you're African (Storm, Black
: Panther), but Hispanic ? (White Tiger-dead, Bantam-dead) Afro-American?
: (Prowler-jailed, Battlestar-jailed, Night Thrasher-dead,
: Giant-Man-dead). If you're Afro-American and not the near-iconic Cage
: and Falcon things don't seem to work out too well do they?
The new White Tiger is also hispanic, and a cop. And Firebird is still
alive and well. For now. But, yeah, Bill definitely got the bum's rush.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: > Afro-American?
: > (Prowler-jailed, Battlestar-jailed, Night Thrasher-dead,
: > Giant-Man-dead). If you're Afro-American and not the near-iconic Cage
: > and Falcon things don't seem to work out too well do they?
: I'd argue that those that have been killed aren't as interesting and
: whose only singular identifying characteristic is that they're black.
So scientist doesn't count in Bill Foster's case?
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
: > >
: > > Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
: > > populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
: > > DC already does it.
: > >
: > Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
: Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
: America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
: to minorities to me.
You mean by actually representing some?
: > and why is it bad?
: Are any of these groups major buyers of DC comics? If not then it's a
: worthless effort.
So white guys won't read them?
Shawn H.
Peter Mason
Not when half the Marvel Universe seems to be made up of scientists.
Nathan P. Mahney
"Peter Mason" <tanke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158873726.6...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >
> > > Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
> > > populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
> > > DC already does it.
> > >
> > Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
>
> Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
> America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
> to minorities to me.
>
lesbian quotient) with the original Crisis, and it didn't work then either.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
Nathan P. Mahney
"Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Forge's mysticism, and the dichotomy that creates between his mystic side
and his technological side, is absolutely central to his character.
>And then there is thunderbird who
> died on the X-mens first couple of issues!!
Hey, at least he's not mysitcal! Neither was Wyatt Wingfoot, if memory
serves.
David Johnston
<nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one in
>> marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
>> native religion is different then the western culture! I mean they have
>> forge who is a mystic for no reason.
>
>Forge's mysticism, and the dichotomy that creates between his mystic side
>and his technological side, is absolutely central to his character.
Doctor Doom does it better.
>
>>And then there is thunderbird who
>> died on the X-mens first couple of issues!!
>
>Hey, at least he's not mysitcal!
Neither is his brother who was still alive last I heard.
Donnacha
"Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
> native religion is different then the western culture!
Count yerself lucky, *hic*, all we Irish get, *hic*, is alcoholics and,
*hic* leprachauns.
D.
Dan McEwen
news:4514d921$0$5111$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
I don't see a particular problem with this. Batwoman is definitely
getting attention, to the point that non-comic readers are interested.
(At least, my retailer mentioned people asking about the comic right
after the NYT article. And these people weren't regulars.) Blue Beetle
didn't appeal to me but not because he's hispanic. That wasn't even
something mentioned in the first few issues I read. It was just that it
was so far afield of the Blue Beetle concept, and the character seemed
so powerful, that I lost interst. As for the others, I haven't really
read about them, but it doesn't seem to me like race is an issue for
them.
I think one of the primary differences is that DC is writing these
characters simply as people, not as representatives of a race, culture,
or whatever else.
--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
Dan McEwen
>
> "Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Mikejo...@aol.com wrote:
>> > Okay, so I know that Giant Man is a C-list character at best. And I
>> > also know that the character has not been seen in the Marvel
>> > Universe for about 5 years as far as I know but...
>> >
>> >
>> > Spoiler Space
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Spoiler Space
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Spoiler Space
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Spoiler Space
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one
>> in marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
>> native religion is different then the western culture! I mean they
>> have forge who is a mystic for no reason.
>
> Forge's mysticism, and the dichotomy that creates between his mystic
> side and his technological side, is absolutely central to his
> character.
Only because they made it that way. How often does it actually come up
unless the story involves him having to use magic?
>>And then there is thunderbird who
>> died on the X-mens first couple of issues!!
>
> Hey, at least he's not mysitcal! Neither was Wyatt Wingfoot, if
> memory serves.
Nope, not a trace. Neither is Warpath, for that matter, who is finally
getting the attention he deserves.
Dan McEwen
news:4514f...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:
Hey! Siryn is a *reformed* alcoholic. But, on the bright side,
Shamrock is neither alcoholic nor leprechaun. She's a terrorist from
Northern Ireland. ;)
TheWatcherUatu
Peter Mason wrote:
>
> Are any of these groups major buyers of DC comics? If not then it's a
> worthless effort.
I don't really understand this sentiment. I'm a white guy from
suburbia, but that doesn't mean that I only want to read about
middle-class white people. Even if it were true that comic books don't
have minority readerships (and I would contest this in any case), I
enjoy reading about characters who represent the wide variety of
colors, ethnicities, ages, socio-economic backgrounds, etc. that I see
every day. That's just more interesting. If the only people I ever
dealt with were exactly like me, life would be pretty ho-hum. You may
disagree.
jgb
Fallen
I don't think the point was that having minorities is bad. I think the
point was that killing off/retiring/whatever existing characters and
replacing them with minorities simply 'because' they are minorities is
annoying. Why not just introduce 'new' characters that are minorities?
Fallen.
Lilith
Same argument I had online with, I think, Steven Grant quite some time
ago. He was remaking characters against established character. I
argued that he was using a proven commodity as a basis for new,
albeit, incompatible ideas. If he had an idea for a
character/characterization that was innovative enough, it ought to
stand on it's own two feet as a new entity and not slap a gaudy coat
of paint on a another work of art.
So, Blue Beetle wasn't working out as a concept or character. At
least not as a profitable one. Why try modifying the base concept? If
that didn't work why think the name alone would carry any weight?
--
Lilith
Peter Mason
Lilith wrote:
> So, Blue Beetle wasn't working out as a concept or character. At
> least not as a profitable one. Why try modifying the base concept? If
> that didn't work why think the name alone would carry any weight?
Because it worked the last time DC tried it.
TheWatcherUatu
> >
> I don't think the point was that having minorities is bad. I think the
> point was that killing off/retiring/whatever existing characters and
> replacing them with minorities simply 'because' they are minorities is
> annoying. Why not just introduce 'new' characters that are minorities?
>
Fair enough, though this still seems like a weak argument to me for a
number of reasons, and not least of which is the fact that heros have
been killed off/retired/whatever and replaced by _white_ heroes plenty
of times, as well. People complain about this, too, but at least
they're honest about their reasons--they just liked the first guy
better (or had some kind of attachment for him). I think it's the same
thing here, except that because a minority is involved, it is somehow
perceived that a person is being less of a baby by complaining that
so-and-so character who they liked was replaced by somebody who they
don't like strictly because of "pandering". This seems disingenuous to
me, and maybe even a little racially/ethnically intollerant, but I'm
not going to pursue that line of thought.
In other words, it isn't that known characters are being killed off
solely for the purpose of replacing them with minorities so much as
comic books have historically done a pretty poor job of including
minority characters and are only now starting to reflect the diversity
of modern society. These "replacements", if you want to call them that,
are racial or ethnic minorities because...well, people _are_ minorities
(and if you live in big cities, as a lot of these comic book writers
probably do, you're more apt to see more minorities on a daily basis).
jgb
David Johnston
Well for one thing because they can point to some spectacular
successes at that kind of thing, starting with the dawn of the Silver
Age when characters like The Flash, Green Lantern, and Hawkman were
reinvented as successful characters more in tune with the current era.
What's more, if they don't do it, inevitably some day someone else
will do it. Leave a character name fallow for long enough and then
suddenly you see a new Captain Marvel or a new Black Terror making
money for some other corporation and you can't say boo. Names that
have a track record are often valuable commodities
David Johnston
>"Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:4514d921$0$5111$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
>>
>> "Peter Mason" <tanke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158873726.6...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
>>> > > populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough
>>> > > that DC already does it.
>>> > >
>>> > Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
>>>
>>> Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
>>> America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
>>> to minorities to me.
>>>
>> They're trying this again? They did pretty much the same thing (minus
>> lesbian quotient) with the original Crisis, and it didn't work then
>> either.
>
>I don't see a particular problem with this. Batwoman is definitely
>getting attention, to the point that non-comic readers are interested.
>(At least, my retailer mentioned people asking about the comic right
>after the NYT article. And these people weren't regulars.) Blue Beetle
>didn't appeal to me but not because he's hispanic. That wasn't even
>something mentioned in the first few issues I read. It was just that it
>was so far afield of the Blue Beetle concept, and the character seemed
>so powerful, that I lost interst.
Ah. Sounds like they are reviving something of the original Blue
Beetle.
David Johnston
>"Donnacha" <donnacha.d...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>news:4514f...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:
>
>> "Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one
>>> in marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
>>> native religion is different then the western culture!
>>
>> Count yerself lucky, *hic*, all we Irish get, *hic*, is alcoholics
>> and, *hic* leprachauns.
>
>Hey! Siryn is a *reformed* alcoholic. But, on the bright side,
>Shamrock is neither alcoholic nor leprechaun. She's a terrorist from
>Northern Ireland. ;)
The only time I saw her she was saving people from terrorists. Which
admittedly isn't that far from stereotype.
Dan McEwen
news:vv8bh2pt661s10ngq...@4ax.com:
You're right, actually. I think I was just remembering something about
her being a "fanatically militant Irish nationalist". But it turns out
she retired to become a world-famous hair stylist. And, no, I'm not
kidding.
Shaun G. Smith
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
>>>populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
>>>DC already does it.
>>>
>>
>>Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
>
>
> Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
> America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
> to minorities to me.
>
And how many White male characters are there in comparison? Maybe if
DC only had 20 heroes at most would this be even .000002% arguable.
>
>>and why is it bad?
>
>
> Are any of these groups major buyers of DC comics? If not then it's a
> worthless effort.
>
Yeah eff those worthless minorities....
Shaun G.
Nathan P. Mahney
"Dan McEwen" <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4nl267F...@individual.net...
> "Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:4514dec3$0$5109$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
> >
> > "Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> Mikejo...@aol.com wrote:
> >> > Okay, so I know that Giant Man is a C-list character at best. And I
> >> > also know that the character has not been seen in the Marvel
> >> > Universe for about 5 years as far as I know but...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Spoiler Space
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Spoiler Space
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Spoiler Space
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Spoiler Space
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
>
> >> Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one
> >> in marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
> >> native religion is different then the western culture! I mean they
> >> have forge who is a mystic for no reason.
> >
> > Forge's mysticism, and the dichotomy that creates between his mystic
> > side and his technological side, is absolutely central to his
> > character.
>
> Only because they made it that way. How often does it actually come up
> unless the story involves him having to use magic?
When Claremont writes the character? It was an important part of his
background when Forge was a regular character during Claremont's first run,
some 15+ years ago. Since then it's not something that's been referenced a
lot except as a plot device, and Forge is immeasurably weaker as a character
for it.
Hamburger
Shaun G. Smith wrote:
> Peter Mason wrote:
> > badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >>>Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
> >>>populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
> >>>DC already does it.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
> >
> >
> > Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
> > America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
> > to minorities to me.
> >
>
> And how many White male characters are there in comparison? Maybe if
> DC only had 20 heroes at most would this be even .000002% arguable.
> >
> >>and why is it bad?
> >
> >
> > Are any of these groups major buyers of DC comics? If not then it's a
> > worthless effort.
> >
>
> Yeah eff those worthless minorities....
>
> Shaun G.
Not quite sure how to respond to that one ... sarcasm I guess?
I guess the reason behind so much of the "minority controversy" is the
lack of recognition received thru-out (misspelled I know, and please
don't correct me) American society and all thru history. Even though
Blade trilogy was a success keep in mind it appears to be the only
movies without a cameo appearance from Stan "the man" Lee. Don't worry
I still respect Stan Lee and maybe that wasn't a good example due to
the "R" rating placed upon the trilogy. I guess my point (if I can BS
one real quick) is that with so many ideas, inspirations, advancements,
technologies, and cultural influences (dance, art, music, & etc.)
derived from minorities and native Native Americans ... brings to
question / if I were to bake the cake and bring it to the party would I
even get a slice? / and why is it out of the question to have a black,
asian, or a even a blue-skinned Superman? Is that not acceptable to
white-America? Sorry, but I don't mean to offend and I doubt I got my
point across (didn't even convince myself).
"There is no such thing as common sense. If there were then most people
would have it and most don't" ___ SGT Boyd, USMC
Hamburger
white-America?
What about an All-Black Superteam? probably not ... always getting
pulled over by the cops (not just the white cops ... the black cops are
sometimes worse) ... Okay, so I guess not. What about a mostly black
superteam with a caucasian male and female and at least one Isreali
member? Would that be acceptable?
Dan McEwen
And that's exactly my point. It never comes up. Claremont featured it
a couple times with the first few years of creating Forge, but virtually
no one else plays up that aspect. Forge was in nearly every single
issue of MYSTIQUE and I don't think it was mentioned even one. Nor is
it part of his character in NEW X-MEN in relation to Nimrod. Forge
rarely uses magic, which makes complete sense since he doesn't like it.
Therefore, it doesn't really come up.
Dan McEwen
news:1159115635.6...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
> A non-white Superman? would that work and would it be accepted by
> white-America?
I wouldn't care. Remember when Superman was "dead"? Of those who were
filling in for Superman (Superboy, Supergirl, Steel, Cyborg Superman -
who we didn't know was bad yet) and had an "S" emblem, the one I felt
best worthy of the role was Steel. He clearly had the right personality
and drive to fill the role, and he wasn't looking to make a name for
himself. He just wanted to live up to the ideal he felt Superman had
set forth. And he's the only one of them who had those feelings. (To a
lesser extent, Supergirl may have, but the Luthor influence was too
strong.)
In case it matter, I'm white, so it's not a matter of choosing my race
over another.
> What about an All-Black Superteam? probably not ... always getting
> pulled over by the cops (not just the white cops ... the black cops
> are sometimes worse) ... Okay, so I guess not. What about a mostly
> black superteam with a caucasian male and female and at least one
> Isreali member? Would that be acceptable?
If it's written to my liking, sure. But who cares? And who the heck is
going to pull over an All-Black Superteam?
bar...@shentel.net
As I recall he used it on his platoon, while he was in a war and the
experience scarred him.
JLB
David Johnston
>> When Claremont writes the character? It was an important part of his
>> background when Forge was a regular character during Claremont's first
>> run, some 15+ years ago. Since then it's not something that's been
>> referenced a lot except as a plot device, and Forge is immeasurably
>> weaker as a character for it.
>
>And that's exactly my point. It never comes up. Claremont featured it
>a couple times with the first few years of creating Forge, but virtually
>no one else plays up that aspect.
And frankly, "I have mystic powers that I have no interest in using
and don't work as well as my inventions" isn't really that great a
hook.
bar...@shentel.net
It's not his hook, it's a plot point.
JLB
Dan McEwen
news:1159128723.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Dan McEwen wrote:
>> And that's exactly my point. It never comes up. Claremont featured
>> it a couple times with the first few years of creating Forge, but
>> virtually no one else plays up that aspect. Forge was in nearly
>> every single issue of MYSTIQUE and I don't think it was mentioned
>> even one. Nor is it part of his character in NEW X-MEN in relation
>> to Nimrod. Forge rarely uses magic, which makes complete sense since
>> he doesn't like it. Therefore, it doesn't really come up.
>
> As I recall he used it on his platoon, while he was in a war and the
> experience scarred him.
True, but that was part of the first few years and was also an event
that took place well in advance of his first appearance.
Dan McEwen
Nope. Forge works really well as a mutant inventor. The magic just
doesn't add anything positive to the character.
David Johnston
And the difference between important and unimportant plot points is
whether or not they are good hooks.
Shawn H
: "Peter Mason" <tanke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:1158873726.6...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
: >
: > badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
: > > >
: > > > Do minorities even make up a major portion of the comic reading
: > > > populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
: > > > DC already does it.
: > > >
: > > Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
: >
: > Introducing a lesbian Batwoman, a hispanic Blue Beetle, an African
: > America Firestorm and an Asian Atom seems to be bordering on catering
: > to minorities to me.
: >
: They're trying this again? They did pretty much the same thing (minus
: lesbian quotient) with the original Crisis, and it didn't work then either.
I remember it working for the Uncanny X-men, once upon a time.
Shawn H.
Nathan P. Mahney
"Shawn H" <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:ef7im7$t06$8...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
I suppose (though I doubt the multinational makeup of that team had much to
do with its success). I'm thinking more of the Crisis in '86, where a whole
lot of blatantly token characters got introduced all at once. It felt
contrived, and if I recall, none of them really caught on.
Nathan P. Mahney
I agree with that, I just think he's much less interesting than he was when
it did come up.
Fallen
If you mean GSXM then there was at least a good in story reason for
that. The American mutants he'd already located were either the ones
trapped or had decided to be 'evil'. Stands to reason he'd go a trekking
around the globe for some more.
Fallen.
Vic Vega
I would disagree with this. IMHO, a big part of the New X-Men's sucess
was precisly because everybody had someone that they liked/emphazied
with. I seem to remember many Hispanics at the time being immediately
drawn to Thunderbird, for example.
Interestingly, something C.C. does not get enough credit (in my
opinion) for is diversity among White characters. I shudder to think
what Sam Guthrie (Cannonball) ,a character from the deep south would
have been written had he been created by anyone else (think Marvel's
Razorback).
Hamburger
So we can all agree or agree to disagree whether or not the X-Men are
the "icebreaker" to cultural harmony and civil rights ... this may be
hard to comprehend for those that are not on the lower end of civil
rights. I think the X-Men may need a couple more movies just to see if.
I also wann say, but I'll say in my next post.
Hamburger
What about the Black Panther ... America's worst nightmare? Maybe maybe
not ... but I do know this, that there are black African societies
living in the states that don't approve or don't give their blessings
when in relationships between black Americans and native black Africans
(sounds hypocritical I know, but it's true) ... the marriage between
Black Panther and Storm held controversy in Wakanda because Storm
wasn't from Wakanda even though she is from Africa. Well what kinda
crap is that. I myself have been in several inter-raccial relationships
(I'm still in one now) and found that is is easier than trying to get
approval from native African families. Oh well ... maybe some day. The
good thing about comic books is that we can imagine just about
anything. Yes, we do need more minority characters ... more different
brands of culture ... how many polynesian characters are there for
instance? ... give it some thought and lemme know.
Fallen
That can't have been that significant surely? Hispanics only had a few
weeks to be drawn to the character, who wasn't even hispanic and was
portrayed as a bit of an idiot for his incredibly short time.
I doubt many German-Americans were immediately drawn to Nightcrawler or
Russian-Americans to Colossus, Storm was drawn as a white woman but
coloured as a black woman and was a Goddess, Wolverine was short hairy
and grumpy plus had no hint of French to him so might as well have been
an American who said Bub a lot. They might have been diverse but there
didn't seem to be much pandering going on.
Fallen.
Dan McEwen
This is a bad hook and a bad plot point. So I guess it doesn't really
matter as far as Forge is concerned.
Dan McEwen
news:1159195053....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
> I would disagree with this. IMHO, a big part of the New X-Men's
> sucess was precisly because everybody had someone that they
> liked/emphazied with. I seem to remember many Hispanics at the time
> being immediately drawn to Thunderbird, for example.
Why? He's not Hispanic. And he died right away.
> Interestingly, something C.C. does not get enough credit (in my
> opinion) for is diversity among White characters. I shudder to think
> what Sam Guthrie (Cannonball), a character from the deep south would
> have been written had he been created by anyone else (think Marvel's
> Razorback).
True, and that foundation has led to most other writers using him as a
character rather than a caricature.
Dan McEwen
news:1159205716.8...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
>> I also wann say, but I'll say in my next post.
>
> What about the Black Panther ... America's worst nightmare? Maybe
> maybe not ... but I do know this, that there are black African
> societies living in the states that don't approve or don't give their
> blessings when in relationships between black Americans and native
> black Africans (sounds hypocritical I know, but it's true) ... the
> marriage between Black Panther and Storm held controversy in Wakanda
> because Storm wasn't from Wakanda even though she is from Africa.
Actually, Storm was born in New York City, but she did spend her entire
pre-X-Men life in various parts of Africa.
Well
> what kinda crap is that. I myself have been in several inter-raccial
> relationships (I'm still in one now) and found that is is easier than
> trying to get approval from native African families. Oh well ... maybe
> some day. The good thing about comic books is that we can imagine just
> about anything. Yes, we do need more minority characters ... more
> different brands of culture ... how many polynesian characters are
> there for instance? ... give it some thought and lemme know.
Mondo? I think that was his name. He was introduced in Generation Next
(AoA version of Generation X) and turned out to be a villain in GenX. But
I wouldn't exactly call him an endorsement for the culture.
Dan McEwen
> "Dan McEwen" <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4no6n0F...@individual.net...
>> And that's exactly my point. It never comes up. Claremont featured
>> it a couple times with the first few years of creating Forge, but
>> virtually no one else plays up that aspect. Forge was in nearly
>> every single issue of MYSTIQUE and I don't think it was mentioned
>> even one. Nor is it part of his character in NEW X-MEN in relation
>> to Nimrod. Forge rarely uses magic, which makes complete sense since
>> he doesn't like it. Therefore, it doesn't really come up.
>
> I agree with that, I just think he's much less interesting than he was
> when it did come up.
I didn't find it that enthralling, myself. It has limited use,
especially since magic has no rules and literally anything can happen
when using it. If magic were better defined it might work.
Dwayne MacKinnon
> David Johnston <rgo...@block.net> wrote in
> news:vv8bh2pt661s10ngq...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 23 Sep 2006 15:30:53 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Donnacha" <donnacha.d...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>>>news:4514f...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:
>>>
>>>> "Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one
>>>>> in marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only
>>>>> because native religion is different then the western culture!
>>>>
>>>> Count yerself lucky, *hic*, all we Irish get, *hic*, is alcoholics
>>>> and, *hic* leprachauns.
>>>
>>>Hey! Siryn is a *reformed* alcoholic. But, on the bright side,
>>>Shamrock is neither alcoholic nor leprechaun. She's a terrorist from
>>>Northern Ireland. ;)
>>
>> The only time I saw her she was saving people from terrorists. Which
>> admittedly isn't that far from stereotype.
>
> You're right, actually. I think I was just remembering something about
> her being a "fanatically militant Irish nationalist". But it turns out
> she retired to become a world-famous hair stylist. And, no, I'm not
> kidding.
IIRC Shamrock retired because she gets her powers from the ghosts of people
killed during the "troubles". Which is a rather interesting angle...
the "luck" in her powers is actually the action of poltergeists.
Vic Vega
This is purely my recollection. And at a guess, may have had more to
do with his rebellious "screw the man" attitude than his ethnicity. Of
course Wolverine had the same personality so one had to go.
Shawn H
: > "How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
: > to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
: > Why? He's not Hispanic. And he died right away.
: This is purely my recollection. And at a guess, may have had more to
: do with his rebellious "screw the man" attitude than his ethnicity. Of
: course Wolverine had the same personality so one had to go.
Well, he was Native American, and there is a lot of Native American blood
in the Hispanic populations of the Americas.
And he was, as you say (and his brother still is, under Brubaker) muy
macho.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: Shawn H wrote:
Sure, but we're not talking about in-story. We're talking about extra-story
reasons for debuting racially diverse new characters. You can't say there
was no marketing (or at least awareness of cultural diversity) going on in
forming a new team of a Native American, an African, a German, an Irishman,
a Canadian and a Russian. Especially compared to the previous team, which
were all white American kids.
Shawn H.
~consul
>> populace? If not why should Marvel cater to them? It's bad enough that
>> DC already does it.
> Um, where is this catering and why is it bad?
In Los Angeles, all the comic shops I go to, and the monthly comic book shows I go to are
pretty much at least 90% black or Hispanic.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
Hamburger
> reasons for debuting racially diverse new characters. You can't say there
> was no marketing (or at least awareness of cultural diversity) going on in
> forming a new team of a Native American, an African, a German, an Irishman,
> a Canadian and a Russian. Especially compared to the previous team, which
> were all white American kids.
>
> Shawn H.
So we got one Native American(killed quickly after) , and one black
African(because all Africans are not black), a German(white), an
Irishman(white), a Canadian(white) and a Russian(also white) so that's
two non-whites and four new white characters(plus the original five
caucasians) ... that's beside the point because you were right about
the cultural diversity ... wait I think we forgot somebody ... wasn't
there also an Asian firebender (excuse me I watch too much Avatar)? ...
Did we forget anyone else. And what ever happened to morph?
David Johnston
>> Sure, but we're not talking about in-story. We're talking about extra-story
>> reasons for debuting racially diverse new characters. You can't say there
>> was no marketing (or at least awareness of cultural diversity) going on in
>> forming a new team of a Native American, an African, a German, an Irishman,
>> a Canadian and a Russian. Especially compared to the previous team, which
>> were all white American kids.
>>
>> Shawn H.
>
>So we got one Native American(killed quickly after) , and one black
>African(because all Africans are not black),
And as it turned out, she wasn't really African anyway although she
had lived in Africa since childhood.
>a German(white),
More blue, I'd say.
an
>Irishman(white), a Canadian(white) and a Russian(also white) so that's
>two non-whites and four new white characters(plus the original five
>caucasians) ... that's beside the point because you were right about
>the cultural diversity ... wait I think we forgot somebody ... wasn't
>there also an Asian firebender (excuse me I watch too much Avatar)?
If you mean Jubilee she came along quite a bit later.
...
>Did we forget anyone else. And what ever happened to morph?
No such character except in Exiles.
Martin Phipps
He means Sunfire (Japanese) who was only in GSXM #1.
Martin
Nathan P. Mahney
> "Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:451797b8$0$5106$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
> > "Dan McEwen" <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:4no6n0F...@individual.net...
>
> >> And that's exactly my point. It never comes up. Claremont featured
> >> it a couple times with the first few years of creating Forge, but
> >> virtually no one else plays up that aspect. Forge was in nearly
> >> every single issue of MYSTIQUE and I don't think it was mentioned
> >> even one. Nor is it part of his character in NEW X-MEN in relation
> >> to Nimrod. Forge rarely uses magic, which makes complete sense since
> >> he doesn't like it. Therefore, it doesn't really come up.
> >
> > I agree with that, I just think he's much less interesting than he was
> > when it did come up.
>
> I didn't find it that enthralling, myself. It has limited use,
> especially since magic has no rules and literally anything can happen
> when using it. If magic were better defined it might work.
Maybe. I think I'll just file Forge under "characters only Claremont knows
how to write" and have done with it.
Hamburger
> >Irishman(white), a Canadian(white) and a Russian(also white) so that's
> >two non-whites and four new white characters(plus the original five
> >caucasians) ... that's beside the point because you were right about
> >the cultural diversity ... wait I think we forgot somebody ... wasn't
> >there also an Asian firebender (excuse me I watch too much Avatar)?
>
> If you mean Jubilee she came along quite a bit later.
> ...
> >Did we forget anyone else. And what ever happened to morph?
>
> No such character except in Exiles.
I think Jubilee was mixed and born in the states and I was reffering to
Sunfire, also when I mentioned Morph I think (I'm almost positive)
he/she appeared in the earlier 60's issues of XM along with mutants
like Unus and Vanisher and Mimic. Prove me wrong, please.
Fallen
Is that some strange catchphrase? Morph was in the first run of X-Men,
but was a visually different character with similar powers and was
called Changeling not Morph. Morph was also in the X-Men cartoon (Again
with a different look and only similar powers to both the Morph in
Exiles and Changeling).
Fallen.
Hamburger
Unus, & Vanisher)?
Why was Synch (from Gen-X, I think) murdered? I know how (which was
lame as hell) I just don't know why ... it seemed in his first
appearance that he could rapidly synch another mutants powers from long
distances as he did with the Banshee ... Another waste of potential ...
not to mention the name Synch seemed pretty lame.
Shawn H
: So we got one Native American(killed quickly after) , and one black
: African(because all Africans are not black), a German(white), an
: Irishman(white), a Canadian(white) and a Russian(also white) so that's
: two non-whites and four new white characters(plus the original five
: caucasians) ... that's beside the point because you were right about
: the cultural diversity ... wait I think we forgot somebody ... wasn't
: there also an Asian firebender (excuse me I watch too much Avatar)? ...
: Did we forget anyone else. And what ever happened to morph?
There was Sunfire, who decided not to stay. It's still more diversity than
had been there before.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: Yes, I guess so ... So what do you know about the other three (Mimic,
: Unus, & Vanisher)?
Well, it was just Lobdell, after all, the man responsible for miring the
X-men in tedium for years during Claremont's absence. Generation Next got
the deluxe treatment, but it never really lived up to its potential.
Shawn H.
Dan McEwen
news:1159282153.0...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
Sunfire first appeared in [Uncanny] X-Men #64. Morph, of course, didn't
exist at that time. Changeling did, and he's technically an alternate
version of Morph, but they weren't even close to being alike.
--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
Dan McEwen
news:1159286478.9...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
> Yes, I guess so ... So what do you know about the other three (Mimic,
> Unus, & Vanisher)?
Vanisher and Unus were among the earliest villains the X-Men fought.
Mimic showed up a bit later as a semi-adversary who joined the team only
so that he wouldn't give away their secrets.
Hamburger
I posted this in another topic but I wanted a few more opinions ... so
I posted it again and here it is .....
Well I've made some up ...
Freq: (Freek) or frequency ... various reading and manipulation over
the frequency waves of electronics and organics (heartbeat rythms,
etc).
The Hamster: (sidekick) ... mysterious psionic & magical powers ...
ability to change size and alter surrounding visual perceptions ... and
I think of something else later.
Monster Blue: Strong man ... ability to change physical density and
rapid control of metabolism in both his own body and two others in
close proximity.
Super Streakers: Fast women(twin Asian chicks - black-Asian-mixed and
part alien) ... ability to rotate in and out of normal time and into
hyper-speed and sub-light speed ... limited control of metabolism and
super-strength (limited to their bodies' resistance to inertia).
The Dagger: No super-human powers, but has unlimited leadership
skills (including vast wisdom) ... skilled in all known forms of
martial arts including weapons and trained in fifteen off-world planets
and dimensions (trained in killing with his bare hands and various
forms of first-aid not only for humans but various alien races).
Lady Star: Formidable strength and agility ... (alien female mixed
with black-American) ... other powers include eye blast capable of
burning thru an M1 Abrams tank ... flight ability with supersonic speed
and limited manipulation over other superhuman powers within unknown
range.
Vic Vega
Donnacha wrote:
> "Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one in
> > marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
> > native religion is different then the western culture!
>
> Count yerself lucky, *hic*, all we Irish get, *hic*, is alcoholics and,
> *hic* leprachauns.
>
Face down in the gutter,
won't admit defeat though his clothes are soiled and black,
he's a big strong man with a child's mind,
don't you take his booze away... (hey!)
Barroom Hero-Dropkick Murphys
Vic Vega
> "Tigers692" <tige...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158889784.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Umm, this is not new.....I am a Native American, and every last one in
> > marvel has to be a mystic or a mystic on the side....only because
> > native religion is different then the western culture!
>
> Count yerself lucky, *hic*, all we Irish get, *hic*, is alcoholics and,
> *hic* leprachauns.
>
> D.
Hell, even the Irish vampire in Vertigo's Preacher was an Alcoholic...
Hamburger
Brand new month and brand new arguments ... lets here 'em.
Hamburger
bar...@shentel.net
That was Changeling. He died. And I'm not sure they still consider
Morph a counterpart of him.
JLB
Dan McEwen
news:1159710365....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
>> I think Jubilee was mixed and born in the states and I was reffering
>> to Sunfire, also when I mentioned Morph I think (I'm almost positive)
>> he/she appeared in the earlier 60's issues of XM along with mutants
>> like Unus and Vanisher and Mimic. Prove me wrong, please.
>
> That was Changeling. He died. And I'm not sure they still consider
> Morph a counterpart of him.
They're both shapechanging mutants named Kevin Sidney. Sounds like a
match to me. Clearly, Morph is considerably more powerful but it may be
that Changeling simply hadn't reached his full potential before death.
Hamburger
Thanx ... I was wondering about that but didn't wanna look it up.