geatest hero
bub
James Moar
<liq...@gmx.net> wrote:
>who is the greatest hero of all time?
>
>
Replying to the subject header, the Geatest hero of all time is Beowulf. :)
Do you want Marvel Universe only, and what standards are you applying?
If it is Marvel only, I'd say Thor has probably performed the mightiest
deeds, but Spider-Man has dealt well with life playing him bad hands.
James Moar
From the Evil Overlord List: No. 116
If I capture the hero's starship, I will keep it in the landing bay with the
ramp down, only a few token guards on duty, and a ton of explosives set to
go off as soon as it clears the blast-range.
Jester
the Marvel side probably goes with Spiderman. Overall, I'd have to go
to DC and say Superman is the epitomy of Great Heroes. Covering both
Marvel and DC...in recent years...Batman would win the popularity
contest.
I still say Superman would have to be the Greatest Hero.
Nick Fury
>who is the greatest hero of all time?
If we're talking all comics ever, I grudgingly give it to Superman.
Just Marvel? Gotta go with the Star-Spangled Avenger. He's tops in
my book any day of the week.
Peter Meilinger
: In article <7g4t0u$b78$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>, "bub"
: <liq...@gmx.net> wrote:
: >who is the greatest hero of all time?
: >
: >
: Replying to the subject header, the Geatest hero of all time is Beowulf. :)
Bah! I'm going with Odysseus. Toughest sonofabitch that ever lived.
: Do you want Marvel Universe only, and what standards are you applying?
: If it is Marvel only, I'd say Thor has probably performed the mightiest
: deeds, but Spider-Man has dealt well with life playing him bad hands.
I'd say Spidey is a greater hero than Thor if we're not talking
sheer power. But I'd put Captain America above them both, though
Spider-Man might be a close second.
Pete
Titano
>
> who is the greatest hero of all time?
I can't remember Hercules' exact words, so I'll paraphrase:
On Olympus, we judge wisdom by Athena, power by Zeus, and
courage by Captain America.
DAVID PHIPPS SHUMWAY
Samy Merchi
>who is the greatest hero of all time?
He-Man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| -- Samy Merchi 1999 / sam...@utu.fi / http://mash.yok.utu.fi/~samerc/ |
| "Better to learn to love | "You're some hombre, arn't'cha, 'Berto? |
| with those you can't have, | Who d'you think runs this outfit, |
| than to learn to have | anyway?" |
| with those you can't love." | "Professor Xavier -- for the present." |
| -- me | -- Dani and Roberto, THE NEW MUTANTS |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmen...@compuserve.com
on where you put the emphasis in "greatest hero". If on
"greatest" that suggest most powerful so Superman or Thor
would be appropriate. But if "hero" is what you want then\
there super powers counts them out. How heroic are there
actions if they generally they can not be hurt. Even
Spiderman with his spider sense providing a warning makes
some of his actions less heroic. But Cap, with no super
powers, puts his life on the line all the time.
Harry Mendryk
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http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Stephen Michael Menendian
On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 hmen...@compuserve.com wrote:
> In article <7g4t0u$b78$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>,
> "bub" <liq...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > who is the greatest hero of all time?
> >
> Captain America by a long shot. But this of course depends
> on where you put the emphasis in "greatest hero". If on
> "greatest" that suggest most powerful so Superman or Thor
> would be appropriate. But if "hero" is what you want then\
> there super powers counts them out. How heroic are there
> actions if they generally they can not be hurt. Even
> Spiderman with his spider sense providing a warning makes
> some of his actions less heroic. But Cap, with no super
> powers, puts his life on the line all the time.
>
If Superserium doesn't count as superpowers than having Kryptonian
DNA shouldn't either.
Stephen Menendian
Trouble Bruin
> >
> If Superserium doesn't count as superpowers than having Kryptonian
> DNA shouldn't either.
how's that?! if you shoot cap in the head, the super soldier serum isn't
going to prevent his brains from being splattered all over the wall. if
you shoot supes in the head, he'd only notice because of the loud "bang".
cap is NOT super-powered. he's subject to the same dangers as you and me.
superman can withstand a nuclear blast at ground zero; superman can take
anti-aircraft weaponry in the chest without breaking a sweat. there's a
difference here...
Trouble Bruin
Trouble Bruin
On 27 Apr 1999, Samy Merchi wrote:
> bub wrote:
> >who is the greatest hero of all time?
>
> He-Man.
not to mention "the most powerful man in the universe!"
Trouble Bruin
Crimson Thug
happened to Earth as we know it. I mean, man. Who wants utter bliss when
we can have free choice. Besides, Tiamat was an idiot. He only wanted
glory, not to save the world.
Deadpool Fanatic,
Crimson Thug
crms...@jps.net
Luke Hegdal
talking sheer bravery and heroism Daredevil takes the cake. Spidey
is most definatly on the top of the list though. The wisecracks alone
qualify him. Superman is my all time least favorite. "Ha evil villan. If I
take off my glasses and comb my hair back you can't recognize me." How dumb.
Wolverine is just nassymean. He rates very well. Beast is still probably my
favorite
though. I would give anything to be fuzzy and blue.
-**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?a ****-
Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser - FREE -
guenoljero's News
Nathan
>who is the greatest hero of all time?
Deadpool. He saved the world from being mindless smiling zombies. That
counts for something.
Eric Stevenson
: > If Superserium doesn't count as superpowers than having Kryptonian
: > DNA shouldn't either.
: how's that?! if you shoot cap in the head, the super soldier serum isn't
: going to prevent his brains from being splattered all over the wall. if
: you shoot supes in the head, he'd only notice because of the loud "bang".
: cap is NOT super-powered. he's subject to the same dangers as you and me.
: superman can withstand a nuclear blast at ground zero; superman can take
: anti-aircraft weaponry in the chest without breaking a sweat. there's a
: difference here...
True, but Cap's still better than human. If taking risks is required for
heroism, a normal human would have him beat. Saying that Cap is subject
to the same dangers as a normal human is misleading. His immense skill
and physical ability allow him to easily handle situations that would be
fatal for most people. He's easier to kill than Superman, but harder to
kill than a regular person.
Last Son of Krypton
Peter Meilinger wrote:
> Bah! I'm going with Odysseus. Toughest sonofabitch that ever lived.
Nah! Odysseus was cool, but for several centuries, he had no effect on Western
literature, as too few people KNEW about him.
The two pillars of Western literature are Robin Hood and King Arthur. I would
argue that they formed the two archetypes of Western heroes (the Cowboy and the
White Knight, as I call them) from whom literally EVERYTHING since (in Western
literature) has been created. Name a hero in Western literature, I'll tell you
if he's a Cowboy, a White Knight, or a combination of the two.
THE COWBOY:
Born into a life of comfort, even wealth (Robin Hood was born Robin of Loxley,
the heir of a wealthy landowner)
At a young age, his comfortable life is shattered (Robin of Loxley went to the
Crusades, only to return to find his home burned to the ground and his family
dead)
Uses skills he has already developed or develops skills he didn't have to become
the best there is in a specific, certain area (Robin Hood learned archery in the
Crusades; was the BEST archer in the world)
Moves to the "liminal place" to live (Robin Hood in Sherwood Forest)
Gathers followers who respect him for his leadership abilities, yet may be able
to best him in areas he does not possess or does not excel (Robin Hood's Merry
Men)
BECOMES one of "the oppressed" to fight against and protect them from the system
which oppresses them (Robin Hood, now poor, fights the Sheriff of Nottingham and
Prince John, who represent the feudal leadership of England; robs from the rich
and gives to the poor)
FORCES the system to change to one which protects the weak and oppressed (Robin
Hood dishonors Prince John and allows for King Richard to return)
Continues the battle to achieve perfection until the system destroys and kills
him (Robin Hood dies in battle with a bunch of bandits)
THE WHITE KNIGHT:
Is born to greatness but does not realize it (Arthur was heir to the throne, but
was raised as a peasant)
Is "called" to greatness, often by supernatural means and/or an apparent
accident (Arthur draws the sword from the stone and/or receives Excalibur from
the Lady in the Lake)
Develops ALL skills and excels in them, but does not necessarily excel at any
one except leadership (King Arthur trains as a knight and prince, but does not
become the best knight in England)
Moves to a utopia, but leaves it frequently to enter a liminal place and fight
the forces of evil for the sake of quest(s) (King Arthur in Camelot)
Gathers followers who respect him as a leader, most of whom he can best in
battle, but some of whom can best HIM as a warrior (While Arthur was a better
all-around knight than most of the Knights of the Round Table, Sir Lancelot
could and did beat Arthur in battle)
Becomes part of the system, but ensures the system helps the weak and oppressed
(Arthur tried to rule as the best king he possibly could, even for the lowliest
peasant in England)
Changes the system and the weak/oppressed through EXAMPLE (Arthur gave the
peasants of England someone to whom they could aspire to be)
Dies when he is betrayed by his trusted followers, who first destroy his utopia,
then kill him in battle (Arthur was destroyed, first by Lancelot's love for
Guinevere, then Mordred's defeat in battle)
Batman = Cowboy
(Marvel's) Thor = White Knight (from where the story picked up in JOURNEY INTO
MYSTERY #83)
Captain America? A White Knight in the 40s, a Cowboy from his resurrection in
the 60s and ever since
Spider-Man? ALMOST a perfect Cowboy, except for his origin, which starts as a
White Knight then turns Cowboy once Uncle Ben dies
> I'd say Spidey is a greater hero than Thor if we're not talking
> sheer power. But I'd put Captain America above them both, though
> Spider-Man might be a close second.
As for this. . .
All comics: Superman (Hey! He's the first! Plus, anyone who can impress Franklin
Richards, who GREW UP with superheroes, has GOT to take the vote)
Marvel: Captain America (Who impresses almost all other Marvel superheroes)
Tony Caroselli
"Louise, she's all right, she's just near/She's delicate and seems like the
mirror/But she just
makes it all too concise and too clear/That Johanna's not here/The ghost of
'lectricity howls in
the bones of her face/Where these visions of Johanna have now taken my place."
-- Bob Dylan
"Visions of Johanna"
Lars Helbig
Last Son of Krypton schrieb in Nachricht <3726B7EC...@hotmail.com>...
>From the Dark, Damp and Noisy World of Tony Caroselli:
>
>Peter Meilinger wrote:
>
>> Bah! I'm going with Odysseus. Toughest sonofabitch that ever lived.
>
Of course Gilgamesh and Rama were a lot earlier.
>Nah! Odysseus was cool, but for several centuries, he had no effect on
Western
>literature, as too few people KNEW about him.
Who said anything about Western literature?
Besides his effect on Western Literature *today* is enormous.
I mean isn´t he practically the forefather of utopics and Sci-Fi?
The fact that he wasn´t very popular during a certain period of
time does not seem very relevant to his status as greatest hero.
A lot of important things were not popular during this time.
>The two pillars of Western literature are Robin Hood and King Arthur. I
would
>argue that they formed the two archetypes of Western heroes (the Cowboy and
the
>White Knight, as I call them) from whom literally EVERYTHING since (in
Western
>literature) has been created. Name a hero in Western literature, I'll tell
you
>if he's a Cowboy, a White Knight, or a combination of the two.
Well you might have a point there, but I think neither of those were
originals.
Isn´t King Arthur's legend just a conglomerate of at that time popular
concepts?
Both are based on earlier concepts. And I don´t think that it is coincidence
that many important biblical characters fit the description below.
<snip the description of the Cowboy and White Knight concept>
I think those a pretty accurate and you could fit about everyone
in either or a mix of both categories.
I am curious where would you put the Hulk?
Silver Surfer & Machine Man are probably White Knight & Cowboy
but I don´t think they fit well into these roles.
>As for this. . .
>
>All comics: Superman (Hey! He's the first! Plus, anyone who can impress
Franklin
>Richards, who GREW UP with superheroes, has GOT to take the vote)
>Marvel: Captain America (Who impresses almost all other Marvel superheroes)
>
> Tony Caroselli
Since the comic versions of Gilgamesh and Hercules are not that accurate
I would probably agree on these choices.
-Lars- is glad nobody dragged Jesus in this so far
_____________________________________________
/ Everything I know about orthography (sp.?) /
/ I learned from reading comics. /
/____________________________________________/
Raggedy Andy
no, he ain't. he just got his skills all of a sudden. a good example of
someone who worked to get what cap has is batman. i'm not sure how you
define "normal". cap has to wipe his ass the same way everyone else does.
without the super soldier serum (does anyone know if that poison stuff
caused him to have it removed, in which case he IS totally normal?) steve
rogers might have stayed a skinny weakling, but if he worked very, very
hard, he could have acheived the same results; only it would have taked
much, much longer than a few panels.
>
>
Paulo Costa
bub <liq...@gmx.net> escreveu no artigo
<7g4t0u$b78$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>...
> who is the greatest hero of all time?
Galileo Galilei, closely followed by Charles Darwin.
--
Paulo Costa - the 5th Teletubby
Handbook of Marvel Creators: http://welcome.to/homc
Squadron Supreme: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4489
Crisis of Infinte Coyles
>
> counts for something.
And that's the bottom line, 'cause Stone Coyle said so!
Wildstar
<titano_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>bub wrote:
>>
>> who is the greatest hero of all time?
>
>I can't remember Hercules' exact words, so I'll paraphrase:
>
>On Olympus, we judge wisdom by Athena, power by Zeus, and
>courage by Captain America.
That's a good one. I like that.
Michael B. Crampton
Paulo Costa wrote in message <01be90e7$9a3285c0$LocalHost@default>...
>
I may be an atheist/agnostic but I gotta figure that Jesus would rank up
there do to his worldwide popularity. Moses, David, Mohammed, Vishnu, and
Siddartha Guatama (Buddha) are probably around the top as well.
Mike Crampton.
Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit.
>
> From the Dark, Damp and Noisy World of Tony Caroselli:
>
> Peter Meilinger wrote:
>
> > Bah! I'm going with Odysseus. Toughest sonofabitch that ever lived.
>
> literature, as too few people KNEW about him.
>
> argue that they formed the two archetypes of Western heroes (the Cowboy and the
> White Knight, as I call them) from whom literally EVERYTHING since (in Western
> literature) has been created. Name a hero in Western literature, I'll tell you
> if he's a Cowboy, a White Knight, or a combination of the two.
>
Well, there's a very Anglican set of democratic ideas in your
description
of these archetypes. Both are leaders, and that is their most important
quality. I don't think that this maps all that well on to most
superheroes, certainly, although it does map perfectly to Superman
and Batman.
But I think the protecting the weak part is the main difference
between your archetypes and greek myths...
Withouth that leadership, wouldn't Achilles be a Knight and Odysseus
be a Cowboy? mmm...maybe not. Odysseus is certainly a Cowboy,
as the whole story is about him falling from power, leading men,
and returning to power...
Achilles may also be a cowboy, actually -- does this make Homer's a
mythology without knights?
Last Son of Krypton
Lars Helbig wrote:
> Who said anything about Western literature?
I did. Weren't you listening? (Sorry. Just kidding. You never know when I'm
going to recall some random Benny Hill line.)
> Besides his effect on Western Literature *today* is enormous.
> I mean isn´t he practically the forefather of utopics and Sci-Fi?
> The fact that he wasn´t very popular during a certain period of
> time does not seem very relevant to his status as greatest hero.
> A lot of important things were not popular during this time.
True, and Odysseus HAS popped up in several parts of 20th century pop culture.
But I contend that, rather than using the outline of Odysseus, most of those
stories use the Cowboy and/or White Knight outline(s) and then apply Odyssean
elements on top of them, which happens a lot in 20th century fiction. Like I
said, Marvel's Thor, although ostensibly based on Norse mythology, is actually
an (almost) perfect White Knight outline.
> Well you might have a point there, but I think neither of those were
> originals.
> Isn´t King Arthur's legend just a conglomerate of at that time popular
> concepts?
> Both are based on earlier concepts. And I don´t think that it is coincidence
> that many important biblical characters fit the description below.
Agreed. I never argued that Robin Hood or King Arthur were brand-new
inventions. EVERYTHING's based on earlier concepts. (And I think it's rather
significant that both Robin Hood and King Arthur were born when Celtic legends
and folk tales clashed with Anglo-Saxon legends and folk tales to create two
new characters, given that those three tribes -- the Celts, the Anglicans and
the Saxons -- were the basis of so many Western civilizations.) But Robin Hood
and King Arthur are significant for two major reasons:
1.) They both set patterns, based on a number of pre-existing concepts, which
would be used by the rest of Western civilization once those two characters
spread out from the British Isles. (The French have a whole set of legends
based around their king Charlemagne which were quite noticeably inspired by
Arthurian legends and an attempt to give turn Charlemagne into their OWN
Arthur. And there are several Grimms' Fairy Tales which are thinly disguised
reworkings of elements from Robin Hood.)
2.) Unlike Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Ranma and others, both Robin Hood and King
Arthur are, as I noted, still popular and vital today.
> I think those a pretty accurate and you could fit about everyone
> in either or a mix of both categories.
Every hero (note that in folkloristics terms, "hero" is NOT synonymous with
"protagonist." Hero refers to a very specific concept) in (post-Robin Hood/King
Arthur) Western literature, yes. Eastern heroes tend to follow another pattern
altogether, as do North American Indian heroes, Pacific Island heroes, etc.
(Incidentally, these two outlines are constantly developing, and there are
other interesting elements in the two archetypes. For the sake of brevity,
however, I kept these outlines to the "bare-bones" descriptions.)
> I am curious where would you put the Hulk?
Depends. Which Hulk do you mean?
In folkloristics terms, the original Hulk (Lee & Kirby's Hulk) wasn't, strictly
speaking, a hero. He fell more under the "creature" archetype. During Peter
David's run, the Hulk was alternately a Creature, a White Knight (most
noticeably during the Pantheon storyline), and a White Knight/Cowboy mix.
> Silver Surfer & Machine Man are probably White Knight & Cowboy
> but I don´t think they fit well into these roles.
The Silver Surfer is actually a combination. (His origin is mostly Cowboy; like
the White Knight he serves as an example for others to live up to; like the
Cowboy he lives in the "liminal place" -- outer space -- etc.)
> -Lars- is glad nobody dragged Jesus in this so far
Oh, Jesus is important. As you noted, Robin Hood and King Arthur both include
elements of Biblical heroes. I think, clearly, the notion of "weak and
oppressed" (found in BOTH archetypes) comes from Christian notions of Christ
helping the poor, the sick, the meek, etc. Much of the two archetypes comes
from separating certain elements of Christ (as a folkloristic hero) -- the
Cowboy must become one of the weak and oppressed, just as Christ was God made
human, for example.
Tony Caroselli
"An' I told you, as you clawed out my eyes/That I never really meant to do you
any harm/But, sooner or later, one of us must know/You just did what you're
supposed to do/Sooner or later, one of us must know/That I really did try to
get close to you"
-- Bob Dylan
"One of Us Must Know (Sooner or Later)"
Luke!
>who is the greatest hero of all time?
>
Well, the Greatest American Hero was William Katt...
--
Luke Gattuso - Lousy email: dogw...@hotmail.com
Lousy web page: http://www.csun.edu/~lg42537
Other lousy web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~weaselbox
Enfante de Probleme de Designers
and we talked about the archtypes of Judaism in film, and media. And then, lo
and behold, someone brought up Superman and I just DOMINATED the whole
discussion for the next half hour, rehashing everything we talked about here
about Supes and Jews! My prof was very impressed with me! :D I knew it would
come into play someday, racmu.
--
We mourn the death of Jean Vander-Pyl, who was the voice of
Wilma Flintstone, the first red-head I fell in love with.
Consul de Designers,
[Link at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~jamesony -X- ICQ 10208399]
Dave Groening
Luke Hegdal wrote
>Superman is my all time least favorite. "Ha evil villan. If I
> take off my glasses and comb my hair back you can't recognize me." >How
dumb.
Um, isn't it the other way round? "Hi evil villain. If I put on glasses and
comb my hair down, you'll think I'm a wussy reporter with no ties whatsoever
to your nemesis, Superman."
Not that I'm disagreeing, or anything.
Lindsay Patching
bub wrote:
> who is the greatest hero of all time?
Captain America.
-Pat
David O'Brien
Lindsay Patching wrote in message <373584BD...@netdocs.com>...
>
>
>bub wrote:
>
>> who is the greatest hero of all time?
>
>Captain America.
World wide? Certainly not. It'd either be Superman of Batman, probably
Supes.
Dave Groening
David O'Brien wrote
> >> who is the greatest hero of all time?
> >
> >Captain America.
>
>
> World wide? Certainly not. It'd either be Superman of Batman, probably
> Supes.
Well, if we're literally talking "world wide", and "all time", then I say
it's "V".
Those who've read Alan Moore's "V for Vendetta" will know what I mean.
Ken
<cram...@cgocable.net> wrote:
>
>Paulo Costa wrote in message <01be90e7$9a3285c0$LocalHost@default>...
>>
>>bub <liq...@gmx.net> escreveu no artigo
>><7g4t0u$b78$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>...
>>> who is the greatest hero of all time?
>>
>>Galileo Galilei, closely followed by Charles Darwin.
>
>I may be an atheist/agnostic but I gotta figure that Jesus would rank up
>there do to his worldwide popularity. Moses, David, Mohammed, Vishnu, and
>Siddartha Guatama (Buddha) are probably around the top as well.
Assuming they existed at all. What about MLK, Ghandi, etc etc. I
think the question was directed at comics mind you.