REVIEW: THUNDERBOLTS #32: Critiques on Infinite Earths
Don MacPherson
Marvel Comics
"Blood Sports"
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Pencils: Mark Bagley
Inks: Scott Hanna
Colors: Joe Rosas
Letters: Richard Starkings and Comicraft
Editor: Tom Brevoort
Spoiler space
In Busiek's penultimate issue as writer on this title he created, he
wraps up the Secret Empire story much more quickly than I expected.
Mind you, he only has one issue left, so a quick wrap-up makes sense, I
suppose. Still, this wasn't the strongest issue in his run, but it was
an okay one.
The Elite of the Secret Empire pit the captured Thunderbolts against its
Brute Force and Shocktroopers in a fight to the death for the
entertainment of the brainwashed masses. The T-Bolts would be done for
if not for the unseen assistance of Citizen V, who calls in the
U.S.Agent and the Jury -- currently out to capture the former villains
-- to help. Together, they put an end to the Empire's operation in the
Rockies.
While last month, Busiek focused on establishing the new Secret Empire
as a threat and new addition to the team's growing list of enemies, this
issue is centered squarely on action. Usually, that would be great,
given that Bagley's strength lies in action and motion. But there are a
few too many players here to keep things clear. Sure, Bagley handled
overwhelming numbers well in #25 when the Thunderbolts fought 25 Masters
of Evil, but in this issue, we have four different teams to keep track
of. Detail is sacrificed for the sake of the numbers, as is clarity.
There were still some nice character moments in this issue. For once,
Hawkeye was wrong and Moonstone was right, indicating Moonstone might be
developing more and more as a team player and heroine. Speaking of
Moonstone, what was with the cover? It had nothing to do with the
story. I expected this issue to be about the fall of Moonstone after
seeing the cover, and it left me scratching my head.
I did enjoy how Busiek is subtly wrapping up his loose ends here. It
was interesting to see the Secret Empire linked to Baron Zemo's vendetta
against his former team, and Citizen V's realization that perhaps the
T-Bolts aren't such bad folks after all was well timed and set up.
I think Busiek has chosen an excellent story with which to bow out of
this book. Delving into the mystery of the T-Bolts headquarters and
who's been doing the team all the technological favors should be a mess
of fun. Some have guessed the malevolent Techno is involved somehow,
and given how long he's been absent from the book, I'd say it's a good
guess.
Don MacPherson
MEBAGS07
cover. I like to go for the single strong image for the cover rather than a
bunch of separate figures, this may sometimes lead to a cover that doesn't
exactly illustrate a point in the issue but I try never to mislead. Also you
are right. This is not one of my stonger issues artistically, my fault.
Sometimes you have it and sometimes you don't. I will say that #33 and 34
are(in my humble opinion two of the better issues I've done, wait and see.
Thanks for your critique, thoughtful input is always appretiated.
Bags
BobKinDC
> I like to go for the single strong image for the cover rather than a
>bunch of separate figures, this may sometimes lead to a cover that doesn't
>exactly illustrate a point in the issue but I try never to mislead.
I'm reminded of the later issues of DNAgents which featured stock pin-up shots
of the team and were so indistinct that I often didn't buy an issue (based on
my thinking I'd already bought it). Bagley is avoiding this problem handily,
although I might be the only comics fan affected by it...
-----------------------------------
--Bob Kennedy
Alexandria, VA
http://hometown.aol.com/bobkindc/club/index.htm
Scott Alan Edwards
meba...@aol.com says...
> Hey, about the cover; In the issue Moonie battles a bunch of creatures thus the
> bunch of separate figures, this may sometimes lead to a cover that doesn't
> are right. This is not one of my stonger issues artistically, my fault.
> Sometimes you have it and sometimes you don't. I will say that #33 and 34
> are(in my humble opinion two of the better issues I've done, wait and see.
> Thanks for your critique, thoughtful input is always appretiated.
At least your doing your own covers. I can't tell you how many times
I've bought comics with great looking cover art, only to find someone
else is doing Picasso impressions on the inside.
But getting back to the art, something gives me the impression that
Moonstone is your favorite character to draw :)
Scott A. Edwards
MEBAGS07
pleasure to draw. I'll defiatly cop to that.
Bags
FabNic
>> are(in my humble opinion two of the better issues I've done, wait and see.
Having read the lettered copies of #33 and scripted #34, I'd have to say that I
agree with Mark about the quality of the work in those two issues.
Knowing Kurt was leaving with #33 and that new writer was doing his first issue
on #34 must have inspired Mark. ;-)
Oh, and 8 pages into scripting #35, the art on that one don't suck pork chops
either!
--fabian
Clay Peterson
> As a red blooded American male of the hetero variety, Moonstone is a guilty
> pleasure to draw. I'll defiatly cop to that.
Mr. Bagley,
You rock.
(And you're art's good, too.)
Clay
"At last we will reveal ourselves to the restroom."
-- FoxTrot, by Bill Amend
Elayne Riggs
> As a red blooded American male of the hetero variety, Moonstone is a guilty
> pleasure to draw. I'll defiatly cop to that.
Defiantly? You mean you're drawing her as a pinup despite other people's
wishes?
Incidentally, in filing some old comics yesterday I came across an
editorial congratulating you on winning the Marvel Try-Out in the
penciller category (the same year my husband won in the letterer
category). Let me know if you want an e-mailed scan of it...
- Elayne
MEBAGS07
typist)!
Bags
Nathan
>As a red blooded American male of the hetero variety, Moonstone is a guilty
>pleasure to draw. I'll defiatly cop to that.
>
>Bags
>
New Warriors must have been really fun then, with Firestar and
Namorita :)
MEBAGS07
Bags
Scott Alan Edwards
meba...@aol.com says...
> You know that be right!
>
Now I have this strange image of editors asking you to redo your art as
its too 'sticky' - right after they make xerox copies for themselves.
Scott A. Edwards
MEBAGS07
Bags.
Shawn Hill
: this is impressive. Between you, you and Kurt produce a hugely
: enjoyable comic that, because it can take quite a bit longer to read
: than the aforementioned panel-reduced comics), also feels like much
: better value for money.
I just don't get the equation of quantity with quality (not that I'm
disagreeing that T-bolts has been a quality comic all along). I'm perfectly
happy with four panels per page if they're four really good panels, and the
story interests me.
Shawn
Nathan
Well, one thing I noticed about Tellos is that it seems to average ony
like 3 or 4 panels a page. As result it seems only half as long as a
bunch of other comics. Throw in a 2-3 month wait between issues and it
starts to get really really annoying. It would be nice if the thing
was at least monthly, or seemed as long as a normal comic
MEBAGS07
writer of course wants to tell as complex and full bodied story as he can.
Where , while the penciller(at least one worth the title) also wants to tell a
terrific story his focus is naturally slanted towards the visual aspects of the
story, how to tell the writers story as visually powerful as possible. This
can somtimes be very problematic, but if the writer trusts the artist's visual
storytelling ability, and the penciller respects the writer's abilities the
combination of talents can produce a really strong product (the sum being
greater than it's parts.) Kurt and Fabe both are terrific examples of writers
who understand this cooporative relationship. I may be full of it, but thats
how I swee it.
Bags
Elayne Riggs
> Well, one thing I noticed about Tellos is that it seems to average ony
> like 3 or 4 panels a page. As result it seems only half as long as a
> bunch of other comics.
That's not how I think of it. I think the visual storytelling in TELLOS
is superb, some of the best stuff Ringo's ever done. Clear, uncluttered
visuals *enhance* a story for me, they don't make it feel shorter. I find
a lot of Marvel visuals unnecessarily busy.
- Elayne
Shawn Hill
: On 20 Sep 1999 03:55:42 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:>Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>
:>: this is impressive. Between you, you and Kurt produce a hugely
:>: enjoyable comic that, because it can take quite a bit longer to read
:>: than the aforementioned panel-reduced comics), also feels like much
:>: better value for money.
:>
:>I just don't get the equation of quantity with quality (not that I'm
:>disagreeing that T-bolts has been a quality comic all along). I'm perfectly
:>happy with four panels per page if they're four really good panels, and the
:>story interests me.
: Had I equated quality with quantity you might have a point, but I
: didn't and wouldn't. I was just pointing out that with T'bolts you get
: both.
You said you liked it better because there were more panels per page.
Shawn
BradW8
disagreeing that T-bolts has been a quality comic all along). I'm perfectly
happy with four panels per page if they're four really good panels, and the
story interests me.<<
Pick up DEXTER'S LABORATORY or POWERPUFF GIRLS and tell
me you got your money's worth.
Steven Horton
: can somtimes be very problematic, but if the writer trusts the artist's visual
: storytelling ability, and the penciller respects the writer's abilities the
: combination of talents can produce a really strong product (the sum being
: greater than it's parts.) Kurt and Fabe both are terrific examples of writers
: who understand this cooporative relationship. I may be full of it, but thats
: how I swee it.
Hey Mark. I'm not sure where the 'cooperative relationship' fits into this,
but didn't Thunderbolts #8 have an awesome cover?? If you don't remember,
it's the one with Songbird on it. Did you spend extra time on that
one, or something?? :)
-Steve
--
/ /\/\ steve horton
\ \ / fifth year professional writing student (cs minor) at purdue
\ / \ fantastic four page: http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~shorton/ff.html
\_\/\ \ star wars ccg player - rating 1645 - 184th in corellia
\_\/ "He used the crimson FORCEfield!"
MEBAGS07
want the cover to sell the book so you want it as strong as possible. As for
the cooporative relationship btwixt the writer and artist I think it's pretty
obvious that they must coopratein order to do their jobs correctly. If the
writer doesn't care about the visual then it's impossible for the artist to do
his job well. Conversly if the penciller has no respect for the writer's story
he can totally screw the writer.
Bags
KurtBusiek
correctly. If the writer doesn't care about the visual then it's impossible
for the artist to do his job well.>>
Ah, what does this guy know? He just draws whatever he's told. If it doesn't
look good, it's his fault. Bah.
Seriously, working with Bags the last three years has been a delight -- he's
one of the most conscientious storytellers I've ever had the pleasure to work
with, and he really knows how to get the best out of what could sometimes get
to be pretty crowded stories.
I have a rule of thumb I use when plotting stories "Marvel-style" -- I won't
write a page that I couldn't break down into six panels (except for special
cases like the last couple of pages of prologue to Avengers #1 or something).
That way, I'm confident that I'm not putting too much on the page for the
artist to fit in visually, though how he fits it in is up to him. Pat Olliffe
would take a page I saw as six panels and draw it as four, without losing any
of the story content. Bags would take that same page and make it seven or
eight panels (and Perez would make it twelve!), but in doing so, he'd focus on
story, and on bringing through the story in a way that made the most sense to
him.
One of the hallmarks of working with Bags is that he'll almost invariably add
panels to get more character nuance in -- more distinctive expressions, body
language, character interaction. And that's a big reason why writers who work
with him wind up looking good...
kurt
FabNic
>with him wind up looking good...
>
>kurt
>
>
And I was lucky enough to learn that back in 1991! So you can imagine how glad
I am to be working with him again!!
And I think that enthusiasm will show in the stories we're planning...
--fabian
Steven Horton
: >And that's a big reason why writers who work
I can't wait. Fabe's the best writer I can think of to pick up
where Kurt left off. As long as Bagley stays on, I'll be happy. :)
StAkAr Karnak
>I have a rule of thumb I use when plotting stories "Marvel-style" -- I
won't write a page that I couldn't break down into six panels (except
for special cases like the last couple of pages of prologue to Avengers
#1 or something). That way, I'm confident that I'm not putting too much
on the page for the artist to fit in visually, though how he fits it in
is up to him.
>Pat Olliffe would take a page I saw as six panels and draw it as four,
without losing any of the story content.
>Bags would take that same page and make it seven or eight panels (and
Perez would make it twelve!), but in doing so, he'd focus on story, and
on bringing through the story in a way that made the most sense to him.
>One of the hallmarks of working with Bags is that he'll almost
invariably add panels to get more character nuance in -- more
distinctive expressions, body language, character interaction. And
that's a big reason why writers who work with him wind up looking
good...
Out of curiousity, how would Carlos Pacheco, Alex Ross and Brent
Anderson turn out your page in terms of panels?
- StAkAr Karnak
***
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MEBAGS07
were going,more compliments for me!!
All kidding aside, I'm a HUge fan of Carlos, Brent and Alex.
Bags
Nathan
Its definately good art, but unless they make the issues like 40 pages
each, with the 2-3 month wait between issues it feels like watching a
2 hour long movie, 5 minutes at a time, once every 2-3 months.
And, erm, Ringo?
KurtBusiek
turn out your page in terms of panels?>>
I don't give Alex and Brent plots -- I did MARVELS, and do ASTRO CITY,
full-script. So I break down the pages into panels myself in such cases.
On AVENGERS FOREVER, Carlos gets a panel-by-panel plot, which is more due to
Roger Stern's working methods than any need of Carlos's, and Carlos usually
follows it, though he occasionally adds a panel here or there.
kurt
Elayne Riggs
> On 20 Sep 1999 13:17:01 GMT, Elayne Riggs <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Nathan <bou...@thunremovetek.net> happened to mention:
>>
>>> Well, one thing I noticed about Tellos is that it seems to average ony
>>> like 3 or 4 panels a page. As result it seems only half as long as a
>>> bunch of other comics.
>>
>>That's not how I think of it. I think the visual storytelling in TELLOS
>>is superb, some of the best stuff Ringo's ever done. Clear, uncluttered
>>visuals *enhance* a story for me, they don't make it feel shorter. I find
>>a lot of Marvel visuals unnecessarily busy.
> Its definately good art, but unless they make the issues like 40 pages
> each, with the 2-3 month wait between issues it feels like watching a
> 2 hour long movie, 5 minutes at a time, once every 2-3 months.
I'm not complaining. I can follow the story fairly well on a bimonthly
basis.
> And, erm, Ringo?
That's always been Mike Wieringo's nickname, as far as I know. Can't
imagine how he got it. ;)
- Elayne
Heiko Paschka
>Aw who cares about those hacks! I really liked the direction these messages
>were going,more compliments for me!!
Hey Bags,
is that really you?
Anyways, you wanted compliments, so here they are. I really like your
art since I saw the first Amazing Spider-Man you did and you easily
became my favourite artist. When I heard that you and Kurt - who is my
favourite writer - were going to do a comic called Thunderbolts I
didn't have to think twice about getting it.
So far, thunderbolts is the first comic which continues to surprise me
with every issue - art- and storywise.
Keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to meeting you in about
one month from now,
Heiko
MEBAGS07
surprizing you.
Bags.
Carey Johnson
Spider-man? It was the coolest he's ever looked.
MEBAGS07 wrote in message <19990922225229...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
Decanos
>Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>: this is impressive. Between you, you and Kurt produce a hugely
>: enjoyable comic that, because it can take quite a bit longer to read
>: than the aforementioned panel-reduced comics), also feels like much
>: better value for money.
>
>I just don't get the equation of quantity with quality (not that I'm
>disagreeing that T-bolts has been a quality comic all along). I'm perfectly
>happy with four panels per page if they're four really good panels, and the
>story interests me.
Sometimes quantity has a certain quality all its own.
If I were to walk into a restaurant and order their
finest steak, I wouldn't just want quality; I'd want
a reasonable dose of quanitty as well. If all they
fed me was a tiny sliver, then it wouldn't matter how
good the steak was; I'd still feel ripped off.
-- Dean V., waxing philosophical
Forge
Carey Johnson <tc...@g-net.net> wrote in message
news:7se1hh$um7$1...@news3.infoave.net...
> hey Bags I bet you've been asked this a lot but any plans to go back to
> Spider-man? It was the coolest he's ever looked.
May I just cut in and ask you Mark, why did you leave Spidey ? I loved your
art there and I keep loving it on T-Bolts, but why leave a high prolific
book like Spider Man for a brand new unsure book like T-Bolts ? Not
slamming T-Bolts or anything (right now, along with DD it's my favorite
book) just interested :)
The usual keep up the good work stuff :)
Forge
MEBAGS07
straight and I think I've done what I could with him. Now if the perfect
writer were assigned to the book, and a few other factors were to change I
might think about it. As to why I left, it was a combo of me being ready to
leave and an editorial decsicion that it was time for a change in the direction
of the book.
Bags
Robert
Did you enjoy working with David Michelinie? And how did you pronounce
his name? ;-)
Ralf Haring
dah-VEED?
///
Ralf (. .) Haring
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